IRC log for #utah on 20140806

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01:22.53programmerqlevi: never heard of it. do you recommend it?
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02:07.05shalkiemmmm... The Habit....
02:07.12shalkieI am a fan of the Tuna.
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03:57.15leviprogrammerq: Worth a try.
03:57.40programmerqI do like me a good burger. what made it bizarre?
03:57.56leviThe clientelle was interesting.
03:58.51leviThere was a guy in slacks and blazer and fancy shoes wearing a backward-turned camoflage cap.
03:59.21leviHe was chatting with another young guy wearing a shiny lavender shirt and bright blue slacks.
04:02.09leviIn general there were a lot of young, well-groomed people with "interesting" style.
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04:04.46programmerqlevi: sounds like a hipster spot
04:04.56programmerqfood is usually *fabulous* at hipster spots
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04:08.40leviIt's a transplant from Santa Barbara. My uncle from there told me about it.
04:17.58shalkieYeah, the first time I had it was in CA.
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06:40.22Tenehttps://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-_4YzeP6ljK0/U-HLWvNGeCI/AAAAAAAAEzY/S6XaOl2zKNY/w505-h898-no/IMG_20140805_231932025_HDR.jpg -- I've been experimenting with doing things to my beard recently.  It's starting to work out okay.
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15:20.06eightyeighthttp://www2.warnerbros.com/spacejam/movie/jam.htm
15:23.26leviWow... why is that still up?
15:23.48eightyeightunknown. awesome relic of the past though
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15:33.02eightyeighthttp://www.whymicrosoft.com/Pages/linux.aspx
15:34.56jimalike it or not, some of those are valid points. :-\
15:35.03jimasome are complete BS, however.
15:36.06jima"Will skilled talent be readily available if your project grows?" having dealt with windows admins vs. linux admins, the latter seem to be more readily available.
15:37.00eightyeighti'll give it some credit: when you don't have the technical expertiese in house to build out new products or troubleshoot deep issues, commercial vendor support is certainly appropriate
15:37.39jimajoe basement dweller has a better chance of being highly skilled with linux than highly skilled with windows.
15:37.43eightyeight"However, sometimes your solution is focused solely on server-side operating systems, and that's where Linux falls short."
15:37.49eightyeightmaybe i missed something...
15:37.51jima...wat.
15:38.37eightyeighti thought linux was non-desktop proof
15:39.02jimamaybe 2014 is the year of linux on the desktop
15:39.11jimahopes someone gets that joke
15:39.14eightyeight:)
15:39.34eightyeightcertainly has been the year of linux on the phone
15:39.38eightyeightfor the past few
15:39.51jimayeah, that's an interesting paradigm
15:41.06jimahmm, apparently 374 days of uptime is just too much
15:41.13jimareboots an apache server
15:41.51jimaits twin unraveled two weeks ago, i suppose i should have seen that coming
15:43.01davido___Does anyone here know Matthew Might?
15:43.38jimai don't know any matthews around here, just michaels
15:43.59jimadang, msawyer isn't in here for me to poke fun at about that
15:45.00davido___http://matt.might.net/articles/ (blog that is heavy on tech, but also talks about Salt Lake / Utah), and https://twitter.com/mattmight  ...just wondered if he hangs out here at all.
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15:46.16eightyeightnot familiar with him
15:46.25eightyeighthttp://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-05/apple-samsung-agree-to-end-patent-suits-outside-u-s-.html
15:46.35jimatry tweeting @ him and ask "bro do you even irc?"
15:46.38jimahides
15:47.43jimaweird, these three cluster nodes' uptime are each 2 weeks apart (28 days, 14 days, and 3 minutes)
15:47.46eightyeightbeing an associate professor, my guess would be that his focus is elsewhere
15:47.59jimaprofessors are people too
15:48.32eightyeightlooks like he hasn't blogged for almost 3 years also
15:48.55jima3 years? crap, he might be dead for all we know.
15:49.02jimaok, back to the grind
15:49.35eightyeighti read some statistic years ago, that 80% of bloggers drop off in the first 3 months of setting up their blog
15:50.06davido___Yeah, I suspect it's a lot of work, and eventually you just run out of things to say. lol
15:50.08eightyeightblogging is difficult to do
15:50.16eightyeightyou really need to love writing
15:50.19davido___Forum participation is probably much easier.
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16:04.26levidavido___: I met Matt Might last month. He's active on Twitter.
16:05.26leviHe's also blogged recently, too.
16:05.50eightyeighthis rss feed doesn't reflect it
16:06.12eightyeightah. my bad. it does
16:06.51eightyeighti looked at the top most-feed date, which was published in 2011, but updated in 2014
16:08.02leviYeah, it's not so much a blog anymore as a collection of articles.
16:08.54leviHe treats blogging as part of his professional process as a teacher/researcher.
16:11.58eightyeightas a student, i enjoyed it when i had a professor that blogged, or was active on twitter
16:12.06eightyeightprovided their content was an extension of their research
16:12.21eightyeightvery rare it seems, though
16:14.23Tod-Workwhen I was a student, the school had a website you could track your grades, it didn't have a whole lot of online classes, and the professors I had would use email, but not in any sort of conversational manner (too slow, as email is)
16:14.51Tod-Workeightyeight, were you somehow a student after me?  I thought you were a bit older than I am (early 30s)
16:15.00eightyeightindeed. most professors were horrible at any sort of online interaction, including email
16:15.21eightyeighti graduated in 2011
16:15.55Tod-WorkI graduated high school in 2000.  Never finished college.  Too slow for my tastes, but I keep thinking about going back.
16:16.21eightyeighti wouldn't recommend changing your major three times
16:16.25leviYou young bucks. :P
16:16.27eightyeighti also would not recommend dropping out twice
16:16.39Tod-Worklevi, oh hush, you're what, 4 years older than me?  I can't recall
16:16.49eightyeightlevi: i wish i was young
16:16.52levi'76
16:17.04eightyeight<- 77
16:17.07Tod-Workeightyeight, I'm on my 5th dropout
16:17.14Tod-Work82
16:17.52Tod-Workweird
16:17.54eightyeightmy wife was born in 76
16:18.14leviTod-Work: I dropped out once, took many years for me to decide to go back.
16:18.25davido___lol, I graduated HS in 86, and college in 94.  My CS program was just beginning to hand out email addresses to undergrads.
16:18.44eightyeighti'm glad i finished though, even though i doubt my degree will do anything for me professionally
16:18.50eightyeightit is something i proud of accomplishing
16:18.51Tod-WorkI like davido___, he can stay
16:18.52leviBut it helped that my wife was very supportive and I got tuition reimbursement.
16:18.53davido___oh, but i finished in econ, so my last year or so wasn't deeply related to cs.
16:19.15levidavido___: Nice! Way to make me feel young. ;)
16:19.16eightyeightlevi: yeah. that was what got me through the last 2 years- tuition reimbursement
16:19.35leviI immediately got a raise when I finished.
16:19.42davido___It's only been this past year that I've finally come to the realization I'm not young, chronologically.
16:19.46leviNot a *huge* one, but it was nice.
16:20.04leviThe 20 year HS reunion was a bit of a mind-boggler.
16:20.13davido___It's mostly a relative thing; I'd be young except that there are so many people younger than me around.
16:20.55leviTod-Work: Where have you been doing your re-tries?
16:21.01levi(at your degree, I mean)
16:21.21Tod-Worklevi, I started in northern california, then southern oregon, and finally at UVU
16:21.44Tod-Worka few Community College tries there, mind you
16:21.46leviI was pretty happy with finishing up at UVU.
16:22.25Tod-WorkI should probably do something that isn't CS.  Maybe EE.  CS is endlessly frustrating and slow
16:22.30RyanEdavido___: I'm one year before you.  '85/'93.
16:22.42leviThere were some rocky spots, but the high points were really great.
16:22.52Tod-WorkI did think about Anthropology or Sociology, though
16:23.33leviTod-Work: I took classes where I already knew a lot of the content as excuses to learn new programming languages or stuff like that.
16:23.51Tod-Worklevi, see, I do that without the tuition costs
16:23.58Tod-Workthe internet is a hell of a drug
16:24.11leviWell, me too, but it made the slowness less difficult.
16:25.05leviTod-Work: What level of classes are you at in the CS program?
16:25.40Tod-Worklevi, I have something like 2-2.5 years, mostly generals.  I was taking some 400 level courses, but mostly 300s
16:26.03Tod-WorkI had the most fun in my discrete structures and data structures courses
16:26.07leviI *loved* the AI course.
16:26.14Tod-Workand by most I mean that's probably the only two I had fun in
16:26.14leviTod-Work: Who taught that one for you?
16:26.26Tod-Worklevi, I have no idea, that was... 8 years ago?
16:26.31leviHeh.
16:26.45RyanEmy favorite class was compilers.
16:26.53leviWas it the dude that taught them with Prolog?
16:26.57Tod-WorkIt's really hard to go back to school when you're well-paid
16:27.05Tod-WorkNo, there were no language requirements
16:27.11Tod-Workother than LC3 Assembly for that bit
16:27.59Tod-WorkRyanE, I'm unpopular in that I'm not a fan of compilers.  I don't hate them, but I am not drawn to them or anything
16:28.03Tod-WorkSad day
16:28.31RyanEI just actually *got* the concept early, and when you 'get it', it greases the skids to getting the work done.
16:29.09leviMy AI class was awesome. It was really programming-focused; we wrote 8-puzzle solvers, sudoku solvers or logic resolution, neural-network based character recognition, genetic programming based knapsack-packing, and we had a chess AI tournament.
16:30.01leviI learned Haskell for my compiler class.
16:30.13leviI used Scheme and a couple of ML flavors for AI.
16:31.07RyanEcompilers for us was in C
16:31.13RyanEsign of the times... :)
16:31.59leviTod-Work: You should look at OCaml. Might find it more palatable than Haskell.
16:32.07RyanEI remember back in the early '90's everyone was saying that programming was not going to be necessary much longer... :)
16:32.09Tod-Worklevi, I would have enjoyed the AI class.  I have a friend at MTU and they have an AI programming competition every year that seems very interesting
16:32.22Tod-Worklevi, I like OCaml.  Haven't found a use for it, but I like it
16:32.23RyanEbecause new languages were going to be useful for a much larger subset of the population.
16:32.34Tod-Workmaybe I just need new friends that will work with me in other languages =cP
16:32.58leviTod-Work: Friends that work with you in other languages?
16:33.37youtahhttp://www.mercurynews.com/nation-world/ci_26281956?source=inthenews
16:33.45youtah"a Russian gang reportedly has stolen 1.2 billion user names and passwords and more than 500 million email addresses from 420,000 websites."
16:33.51Tod-Worklevi, I like programming with others.  I don't want to live in a bubble of my own construction.  It's a bit of a problem, being social and a programmer
16:34.00youtah^
16:34.08youtahI love pair programming actually
16:34.19leviTod-Work: I'll write code in interesting languages with you!
16:34.24Tod-Workwell, that's a lie, actually, I'm not social, I just don't want to do it alone.  Divvy up things, talk about the code base, that sort of thing
16:34.44RyanEevery new language learner needs 3 things: 1) A friend who can answer questions, mentor, 2) A task to program in the language, 3) Community / documentation.
16:34.58Tod-WorkI'm writing a toy web server in Java just for this reason, actually, because my friend won't do web dev with me in python
16:35.21leviI won't do web dev with you in Java or Python, but I'll do it in OCaml or Haskell. :)
16:35.24Tod-WorkRyanE, I find 3 isn't required for some
16:35.51Tod-Worklevi, duly noted.  I'm trying to decide what I want to be when I grow up, so I'll let you know shortly =cP
16:35.53RyanEI find the community / documentation more helpful than the friend.
16:36.07RyanETod-Work: you should wear more hats.  oh wait, you've got that covered.  :)
16:36.28Tod-WorkRyanE, that's fair.  1&3 sort of become the same thing then
16:37.06leviI tend to study languages more than I actually use them due to lack of an appropriate #2.
16:38.09Tod-WorkI like to learn the language with my LearningProjects repo (which I haven't given much love) and then do something useful with it if I have such a thing
16:38.42leviMy recent Haskell learning has largely taken place in the context of the IRC server I'm writing as a learning project.
16:39.01Tod-Workmmm, IRC
16:39.05levihttp://cgit.pinealservo.com/pipes-irc-server/
16:40.04Tod-Workevery few months you give it some attention, eh?  =cP
16:41.00leviIt's far enough along that you can connect to it with irssi or whatever and do basic chatting.  The parsing and data structures are all there to support the various client/server commands, but I haven't implemented the logic for them yet.
16:41.47leviThe wonderful thing about Haskell is that it's *reasonable* for me to give it some attention every few months and actually make progress.
16:42.28leviI can leave it for months, come back, and make useful progress in a spare hour.
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16:44.38leviI tried doing some stuff with node.js a while ago, and it was *much* harder for me to pick it up again after a break.
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16:46.20leviI was pretty keen on node.js when I started, but I ended up pretty down on it. :(
16:46.25RyanEyeah, jode.js is much closer to the mythical 'write-once' language.
16:46.33Tod-WorkI don't like node.js.  Nice tech demo, just seems asinine in practice.
16:46.40RyanEcallback hell
16:47.38Tod-Work"But you can use your already existing javascript knowledge!"  I'd rather learn to think differently.
16:47.42leviSo much of the super-hyped libraries that seemed like they'd be perfect for my use case ended up being horribly broken in edge cases and were nearly incomprehensible.
16:48.02Tod-WorkI like Javascript, but just in web pages.
16:48.24Tod-Workwhich reminds me, apparently jQuery is "old" now.  I didn't know.
16:49.06leviAnd the stuff written by Ruby people had utterly terrible taste in DSL syntax.
16:49.23Tod-WorkI like your approach in thinking on HTML here, btw
16:49.27Tod-Workhope it works out
16:49.38leviWhich approach do you mean?
16:49.56Tod-WorkMarkdown to html
16:50.22Tod-Workmarkdown from a templating language seems very powerful
16:50.29leviAhh, yeah.
16:50.38Tod-Workyou could do a lot of message formatting and data stuff with it
16:50.45leviIt uses a static site generator called Hakyll.
16:50.57Tod-WorkYes, I am reading the description here
16:51.08leviSort of inspired by the Ruby-based Jekyll project.
16:51.35leviI used a CSS-generating library called Clay for the style, too.
16:53.46leviIf you want a powerful document processing markup system, I'd actually recommend Asciidoc. The syntax is similar to Markdown (and you could actually reconfigure it to be closer to Markdown if you wanted) but it's much more flexible.
16:54.46leviI'm kicking around ideas for my own Asciidoc-alike, but with a bit more of a principled code design than the actual Asciidoc code base.
16:55.40leviHakyll has the advantage of using the Pandoc library for markup, though, which means that you can read a *lot* of different markup formats.
16:57.59leviAsciidoc is really interesting because it looks at first a lot like Markdown or ReStructured Text, but it turns out that its syntax and how it's translated is defined to a huge degree via a macro system and configuration files.
16:59.42leviI want to keep the configurable model, but have it translate to an internal abstract document model rather than being translated directly to another format via a pile of regex-driven macro replacement.
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17:01.23jxqz~rails regex-driven macro replacement
17:01.23infobotregex-driven macro replacement refactors to 0.348552626877897 picolines of code with the latest rails magic
17:04.44programmerqwho manages infobot? jxqz?
17:05.13programmerqwe need ~moss (from IT crown)
17:05.59programmerq"I AM a giddy goat"
17:06.20programmerqcrowd*
17:11.01jxqzoooh, yes!
17:11.20jxqzprogrammerq: it's TimRiker, but you can give infobot commands
17:11.54programmerqqueries infobot
17:14.54Tod-WorkI think you write perl to it for anything more complicated than a key lookup, iirc
17:17.30programmerqanyone have an example handy?
17:17.41jxqzinfobot: moss is <reply>(Hello, IT... Have you tried forcing an unexpected reboot?|Did you notice how she didn't even get excited when she saw this original ZX81?|Well that's easy to remember.  0118 999 88199 9119 725! 3!|I'm a 32 year old IT-man who works in a basement. Yes, I do the whole Lonely Hearts thing!|Did you see that ludicrous display last night?|Just promise me we won't do anything else with them. I
17:17.41infobotis <reply>(Hello, IT... Have you tried forcing an unexpected reboot?|Did you notice how she didn't even get excited when she saw this original ZX81?|Well that's easy to remember.  0118 999 88199 9119 725! 3!|I'm a 32 year old IT-man who works in a basement. Yes, I do the whole Lonely Hearts thing!|Did you see that ludicrous display last night?|Just promise me we won't do anything else with them. I: Have you tried turning it off and on again?
17:17.44jxqzwant to go back to being weird. I like being weird. Weird is all I've got. That and my sweet style.)
17:17.50jxqzinfobot: no moss is <reply>(Hello, IT... Have you tried forcing an unexpected reboot?|Did you notice how she didn't even get excited when she saw this original ZX81?|Well that's easy to remember.  0118 999 88199 9119 725! 3!|I'm a 32 year old IT-man who works in a basement. Yes, I do the whole Lonely Hearts thing!|Did you see that ludicrous display last night?|Just promise me we won't do anything else with
17:17.50infobotjxqz: okay
17:17.53jxqzthem. I want to go back to being weird. I like being weird. Weird is all I've got. That and my sweet style.)
17:17.54jxqz~moss
17:17.54infobot(Hello, IT... Have you tried forcing an unexpected reboot?|Did you notice how she didn't even get excited when she saw this original ZX81?|Well that's easy to remember.  0118 999 88199 9119 725! 3!|I'm a 32 year old IT-man who works in a basement. Yes, I do the whole Lonely Hearts thing!|Did you see that ludicrous display last night?|Just promise me we won't do anything else with
17:17.59jxqzhm
17:18.04jxqz:(
17:18.27jxqz~literal cmd: napoleon (.*?)
17:18.27infobot"cmd: napoleon (.*?)" is "($n): <action>(takes $n's girlfriend to the mall for glamor shots|makes $n buy a lotto ticket for Napoleon|makes $n his secret service captain|makes $n feed Tina|throws $n's favorite Masters of the Universe action figure out the bus window attached to a fishing line|eats all of $n's steak|hunts woverines in Alaska with $n's cousins|tames a wild honeymoon stallion for $n)"
17:18.36jxqz~literal napoleon
17:18.36infobot"napoleon" is "<reply>(Just listen to your heart.  That's what I do.|Sweet!  That's like a dollar an hour!|Wait, I forgot the crystals.|Girls only like guys who have great skills: Nun-chuck skills, bow hunting skills, computer hacking skills.|There's like a buttload of gangs at this school.  One of them kept wanting me to join because I'm pretty good with a bo-staff.|It's a liger, bred for its skills in magic.|Pedro offers you his protection.)"
17:22.35jxqz~moss
17:22.35infobotDid you notice how she didn't even get excited when she saw this original ZX81?
17:22.42jxqzprogrammerq: how's that?
17:23.05jxqzof course you can change if you want
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17:26.05programmerqnice
17:26.57programmerqso did you have to PM the final command?
17:28.36jxqzyeah, but only because I didn't want to flood in here
17:28.46jxqzis also still getting used to weechat
17:29.29jxqzprogrammerq: ~literal <command> will show you the literal command of <command>, as in ~<command>
17:29.52programmerqyeah, I figured I could just do that
17:29.54programmerqgood to know.
17:30.03programmerqI might go through and add a few more at some point.
17:30.07jxqzif your command takes (an) argument(s), ~literal <command> (.*?) will show you that command
17:31.24jxqzto change a command, do infobot: no <command> is <new-command>
17:32.01jxqzaand if its a command with arguments, infobot: no <command> $x is <new-command>
17:32.07jxqzI think that's right anyway
17:32.14programmerqah, so for napolean, 'napolean' and 'napoleon (.*?)' are two commands. makes sense.
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17:32.55jxqzif you want <command> to be a random set of commands you do (a|b|c|...)
17:33.48jxqzand <reply> will cause infobot to reply, whereas <action> is an action
17:34.34jxqzotherwise infobot will reply with a standard prefix
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17:34.45jxqz~jxqz
17:34.45infobotfrom memory, jxqz is just zis guy, you know
17:34.56jxqzas a demonstration
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17:35.54jxqz~moss
17:35.54infobotDid you see that ludicrous display last night?
17:41.23jlp_znc:-)
17:43.04jlp_znc~roy
17:43.14jlp_znc:-(
17:43.21jlp_znc~jenn
17:43.22programmerqmoss is a little more quotable
17:43.36jxqz'did you try turning it off and on again?'
17:43.43jlp_zncbut Jenn:  It's... the Internet.
17:43.55jxqzthe internet doesn't weigh anything
17:44.01programmerq"Please no flash photography... you could harm the internet"
17:44.03jlp_zncit's wireless!
17:44.15jxqzdid you degauss it?
17:44.28programmerqwait a minute... the elders of the internet?... know who I am?!
17:44.40jlp_zncso on my LinkedIn profile, I have my title as "Elder of the Internet"
17:44.45programmerqnice
17:45.46jlp_znchmmm, it's national root beer float day today
17:45.56jlp_zncI wonder if we will have them at lunch
17:47.03programmerqhaving a microwave on the same circuit down here as my computers makes me a little nervious
17:47.10programmerqIt's a 30amp circuit, and can take it
17:47.23programmerqbut the voltage drops down by 4 volts while the microwave is going.
17:47.27jxqzthat's a lot of amps
17:50.29RyanEin college, we had a huge commercial microwave.  Every time it 'cycled' on, the image on the TV would shrink about 2" per side.  :)
17:50.55RyanEdon't know where it came from, one of the 'historic' roommates had left it, I believe.
17:52.37programmerqerr, typo 20amp
17:58.21RyanEjust don't do a build while playing a fps at *lunchtime*.  :)
17:59.05programmerqI'm tempted to run a second 20amp circuit down here
17:59.07jxqzthat sounds more standard
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18:40.42programmerqhttps://codestarter.org/ http://coderdojo.com/ - interesting. ever since the keynote at openwest about how many people/kids don't have internet/computer access, I've been wondering what could be done to help.
18:40.57programmerqlooks like there are some efforts trying to help
18:41.05programmerqthere is even a utah chapter of the coderdojo
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19:00.37shalkieGirl Develop It is doing a library donation and swap on the 16th along with a boot camp.
19:02.22jxqzwhat about people who don't like to wear boots?
19:02.24jxqzor camping?
19:03.04Tod-Workthere are other ways to learn to code
19:03.12Tod-Workbootless, indoor ways
19:03.51Tod-WorkBeing serious for a moment, I'm actually really conflicted about dev quickstart schools
19:04.14jxqzyeah
19:04.17Tod-WorkOn the one hand, they're teaching people a skill that is sorely needed and useful in a very short amount of time and helping them get decently paying jobs
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19:04.30jxqzthere's groupthink about how they create 'career beginners' or something like that
19:04.39jxqzseems like a realistic concern
19:05.49jxqzthere is a great need for programming, but the problem is that to become a great programmer you need to change/expand the way you think about nature
19:06.16jxqzit's a cultivated sensibility for logic and structure
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19:13.38Tod-WorkOn the other hand, they're teaching the barest of things of a very complex craft in a very short amount of time, and setting up people to be something different than I'd call a programmer
19:13.54Tod-Workso yes, what jxqz is saying
19:13.59Tod-Workbut maybe it doesn't matter anymore
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19:18.15eightyeighthttp://www.cnet.com/news/disney-debuts-star-wars-rebels-extended-preview/
19:18.30eightyeightthe animation to me seems more polished and put together than clone wars
19:18.52eightyeightpossibly because they have the disney animation studio talent
19:19.12eightyeighti am looking forward to episode 7 though. i doubt i'll be let down.
19:23.28jxqzis done with disney and star wars
19:23.43jxqzwill not see the star wars musical or whatever it is that they're doing
19:23.47jxqzjust doesn't care
19:24.30eightyeightwatches clone wars with his daughter almost nightly
19:24.48eightyeightalthough reading moby dick to her has derailed that recently
19:25.07jxqzawesome
19:25.11jxqzI love Melville
19:25.18eightyeightwe just finished last night
19:26.02eightyeightwe read an abridged copy, with pencil sketch drawings of events
19:26.23eightyeightshe loved the sketch of fedallah attached to the whale's back, tied up in ropes and harpoons
19:32.10programmerqre the dev camps for kids. basically when *I* was a kid, we had a computer. most people didn't. we had dial up internet first. we had cable modems first, and we had multiple computers.
19:32.51programmerqbefore commercial routers were available, I remember setting up a local network, and the family computer had the dial up modem (later the cable modem) connection, and ran a socks proxy in the win95 tray
19:33.01programmerqand that was the only way I had internet on *my* computer
19:33.16programmerqI finally figured out ipchains and got a 486 acting as a router
19:33.39programmerqanyway-- there are plenty of kids today that have zero computers, and only smartphone internet
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19:34.11programmerqso the dev camps and the giveaway of laptops to kids who meet certain criteria can help inject talent into the industry that wouldn't have been there otherwise (possibly)
19:39.33davido___programmerq We tried some of the same things. :)
19:40.01davido___...but when I was first starting out I had to use friends computers.  (like 1981sih, age 13ish)
19:50.22Tod-Workprogrammerq, I think the trick is that a) the level of tech curiosity there is rarer than the number of people we will need in the future, and b) we think that all that thinking isn't required.  We might be right on b, and I know we're right on a, though I think we underestimate the curiosity of some kids
19:54.28leviprogrammerq: I set up a local network with 10base2 ethernet cards I got from a computer surplus store.
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20:08.18jlp_zncI did not own a computer until 1998.
20:08.41jxqzI owned my first computer in 2002
20:08.50jxqzs/first/own first/
20:09.11jlp_zncI had a terminal that I built myself (heathkit) in 1983, and a novation smartcat modem (not hayes compatible)
20:09.23jxqzmy family's first computer was a 386 DX with a turbo button
20:10.01jxqzwhy don't computers still have turbo buttons?
20:15.26Jayce^they do, but it's fixed during the os installation process :)
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20:33.50jlp_zncit really should have been called an un-turbo button
20:40.31youtahhttp://www.ksl.com/?sid=31022409&nid=148&title=byu-student-accused-of-hacking-system-changing-grade&fm=home_page&s_cid=topstory
20:41.19youtahin a forever meeting
20:41.23youtahwrong window
20:48.44eightyeightyoutah: don't forget http://weber.edu/WSUToday/080614_WSUInformingCampusofComputerBreach.html
20:49.08eightyeighthttp://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58267781-78/building-information-lab-university.html.csp
20:49.16eightyeighthttp://www.standard.net/News/2014/08/06/WSU-campus-computer-breech.html
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21:09.45youtahfalling
21:09.47youtahasleep
21:10.45programmerqTod-Work: either way, having some programs in place to try to encourage that curiousity and reward it with a free laptop is going to do more good than harm, most likely.
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21:13.51unummy state rep and senator want programming to be taught in middle school and high school but are vehmentaly opposed to paying people to do so
21:14.12unumso my state reps idea is to stream college level programming classes in to middle school
21:14.24unumand my state senators idea is to use a computer program to teach programming
21:14.43unumto middle school students
21:15.03unumwith out the help of an experience programming on site in either case
21:15.16programmerqoh, I'm certainly not in favor of legislation like that
21:15.36programmerqhttp://coderdojo.com/ <-- this is more like what I'm excited about.
21:15.39programmerqopt-in
21:15.41programmerqprivate
21:15.43programmerqfree
21:15.45programmerqvolunteer-run
21:15.59programmerqonce you start talking legislation, things get murky
21:16.32programmerqprobably not a bad idea to have some CS classes available, but they need to be taught by qualified professionals for sure.
21:16.48programmerqI could see the right group of middle school students coming up with some games and hashing it out with the right guidance
21:18.02unumI think the thing that bothers me the most is I'm sure my state senator wanted to PAY for these programs(just not for teachers)
21:20.05youtahSilly BYU student
21:20.15youtaheveryone knows that Key Loggers are so 1980's
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21:20.27youtahSocial Engineering is so much more fun
21:20.30RyanEand B&E... bad way to do anything.
21:22.45tvc123and really ... your going to leave stuff around like that unencrypted?
21:23.13jlp_zncsounded like the guy had some other issues going on... stealing equipment from his job, for example.  
21:25.18tomstokesAlso suspected in several older incidents at BYU
21:28.06youtahyeha
21:28.08youtahyeah
21:28.14youtahhe seems no bueno
21:28.48tomstokesHe's pretty screwed now that his mug shot is archived forever on the internet
21:29.19jxqz~moss
21:29.19infobotHello, IT... Have you tried forcing an unexpected reboot?
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21:39.13fozzmooAre there ANY decent computer stores left in Utah where I can buy components to build a PC?
21:41.00programmerqfozzmoo: swing by fry's in Las Vegas on your way to defcon?
21:41.10fozzmoowent to Defcon once... in 1999
21:41.15RyanEI don't know anyone who doesn't use newegg.
21:41.20fozzmoohad a horrible time
21:41.23programmerqI stopped using newegg
21:41.33RyanEok, I know *one* person who does not use newegg.  :)
21:41.35fozzmooI hit Frys in LV about a month ago. That was a cool store.
21:41.44RyanEI haven't used them in a while, haven't built a PC.
21:41.45programmerqtheir shipping deals and customer service took a dive, so I use amazon prime
21:41.46fozzmooYeah, I want to build a computer before Saturday.
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21:41.52RyanEAmazon Prime
21:41.57programmerqlast build was all prime
21:42.19fozzmooYeah. I've been price comparing NewEgg to Amazon Prime and about half the time going with Amazon.
21:42.44fozzmooIt looks like JPL Computers in Orem went away in the last couple of months.
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21:42.59fozzmooOtherwise, I'd go there and scrounge something up.
21:43.01programmerqI remember back in the day when you'd get a tshirt or a hat with a good number of newegg orders
21:43.20programmerqit hasn't been that way in along time.
21:43.40RyanEmy nephew worked at JPL.  He didn't mention they'd gone.
21:44.13fozzmooOh. Maybe they're still there. Just saw a big For Sale sign in front of the building, an empty parking lot, and their website refused to come up.
21:44.18RyanEI had a laptop repaired by him at JPL a few months ago (no backlight).  Turned out it was just a connector had worked loose.  No charge.
21:44.19jxqzis EBC still around? :)
21:44.34RyanEI hope not.
21:44.35RyanE:)
21:44.59fozzmoo:)
21:45.03fozzmoo~lart EBC
21:45.03infobotplops EBC into a giant vat of herring
21:45.58programmerqfozzmoo: PC Laptops may be the only remaining place.
21:45.59fozzmooMaybe I'll go see if JPL is still there on my way home.
21:46.03fozzmooprogrammerq: Nooooo!
21:46.05programmerqI haven't been to one in a good long time
21:46.10RyanEgah
21:46.11programmerqbut they have a small selection of parts, maybe
21:46.14fozzmooI went there last Saturday looking for a power supply.
21:46.21fozzmooThey had a Corsair they'd sell me for $99
21:46.21programmerqevery time I went in, they were pretty dry though
21:46.53RyanEmost computer stores seem to have tumbleweeds blowing through every time I've visited.
21:46.54fozzmooI went to Best Buy and found a Thermaltake for $45. Far more reasonable for what I was doing (just a home Linux box.)
21:47.04RyanElike a Blockbuster
21:47.09fozzmooSad.
21:47.20RyanEhttp://thedoghousediaries.com/5871
21:50.23davido_There really is no substitute for Frys... though actually being *in* there store is rarely a great experience.  Every one I've been in has been highly disorganized.
21:50.26davido_But they have everything.
21:50.41davido_I guess there is an alternative; Hong Kong markets.
21:51.22RyanEIf buying from Hong Kong, I suggest you don't do it in person.
21:51.41davido_I used to go to the Frys in Burbank, CA.  The front of their store has a millennium falcon model crashed into it.
21:51.44RyanEI tried to buy some LED strips while in Hong Kong, they wanted to charge me about 3 times what I could buy it from the US...
21:51.54RyanEand that included (slow-boat) shipping.
21:51.55davido_Yeah, you need a native to do the talking.
21:51.59davido_lol
21:52.04shalkieI was going to make a dig about Starwars on Ice.. but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cH8JBxnuw0
21:52.17RyanEapparently.  I'm about as white as they get, and they assume I don't know what they're charging on the Internets... :)
21:52.39davido_https://www.google.com/search?q=frys+burbank&client=ubuntu-browser&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=maPiU9mJJoqN8gG33IDgBg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=1260&bih=696#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=0BqUOgdGHxldfM%253A%3Bc70AbbvqAXTITM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fimages.frys.com%252Fart%252Fstoremaps%252Fimages%252Fbrbnk_pic1.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.frys.com%252Fac%252Fstoreinfo%252Fburbank-location-frys-electronics-hours-maps-directions%3B500%3B500
21:52.48davido_egads, sorry about the length of that URL.
21:52.53davido_Anyway, that's the one in Burbank.
21:53.54davido_This used to terrorize my son anytime I would venture into the computer department of Frys in Burbank: http://cephalopodsgonewild.tumblr.com/post/29492848749/apparently-the-frys-electronics-in-burbank
21:54.53davido_Here in UT "back in the day" I would go to Software & More on Highland.  They had a lot of componentry.  Seem to be gone now though.
21:55.27RyanE"back in the day" there was a place on University Avenue in Provo.  It's been an Asian restaurant for 15 years now...  :)
21:56.18davido_fozzmoo: I'm surprised you can't build a system from parts in your basement.  (not that I've been there, but still surprised)
21:56.42fungusIn SLC there is still Universal Systems.  http://www.usicomputer.com/
21:56.48davido_though the ISA parallel cards are probably not going to be very useful. ;)
21:58.53programmerqI built a system out of stuff laying around and put freedos on it for my 4-year-old
22:00.00fozzmoodavido_: If I wanted to build a rackmount box, I'd have plenty of parts in my basement.
22:00.23joshhwhy would you want a pc either?
22:00.35joshhits the post-pc era
22:00.46fozzmooYeah, Universal. I guess I could go there as a last resort. They're kind of far north for me.
22:01.28eightyeightnon-pcs are great for getting non-demanding things done, such as web browsing, checking email, reading books, playing games, watching video
22:01.47eightyeighti have yet to see a mobile app for video editing that compares to adobe premier though
22:02.24eightyeightor a vector graphis app similar to inkscape or adobe illustrator
22:02.26fozzmooSo, the reason I want to build a PC is because I've realized my son (who is turning 11 this week) has hardly any experience with Windows (or OS X, for that matter)
22:02.37fungusor playing really great games that aren't littered with in-app purchases.
22:02.40fozzmooWe have several Linux boxes at our house
22:02.43eightyeighteven document creation only does the "basics" for "most people" on mobile devices
22:02.48jxqzwhy does anyone need windoz experience?
22:03.17fozzmooIn my zeal to make my life (supporting the machines) easier, I'm afraid I'm limiting his exposure to the "real world."
22:03.31eightyeighteven simple "print to pdf" is largely lack luster on mobile devices
22:03.36fozzmooeightyeight: Yes!
22:03.44fozzmooprinting from mobile SUCKS!
22:03.50eightyeightindeed
22:04.02eightyeightas well as sending files from one device to another
22:04.03fozzmoothrows cups on his Android device
22:04.11eightyeightusb drives at least make that stupid simple on desktops
22:04.19eightyeightit's a royal pita on mobile devices
22:04.23jxqzmy phone runs a full debian GNU/Linux system
22:04.27fozzmooAlright. heading to JPL to see if there's anything besides tumbleweeds.
22:04.36fozzmooWish me luck.
22:04.45jxqzthere's this android thing on there too, but I'm not sure how to get rid of that
22:04.56eightyeightjxqz: simple. don't own the phone. :)
22:05.20jxqzeightyeight: don't ever do anyting ever
22:05.26jxqzevar
22:05.40eightyeightwell, if you don't like what it offers, and there aren't suitable replacements, then why did you purchase it?
22:05.49eightyeightseems a 'dumb phone' would be more fitting?
22:06.57davido_fozzmoo: A virtualbox with https://www.modern.ie/en-us/virtualization-tools ought to do the trick.  That's the only way I run windows (mostly so that I can use Adobe Lightroom)
22:07.49davido_Then I ctrl-alt-arrow to flip between my Linux desktop and Windows.
22:08.22jxqzeightyeight: so you're running a dumb fon now?
22:08.36eightyeightnot at all. why would you assume that?
22:08.37jxqzdebian was too much for you?
22:08.46eightyeighti've never needed debian on my phone
22:10.11eightyeighti purchased the galaxy s3 specifically for changing out the rom, while still having fully functional hardware
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22:12.49jxqzstill fully-bloated java
22:17.01eightyeightjava on my phone does not bother me
22:19.56jxqzwhat about jawas on your phone?
22:20.41jxqz~rails eightyeight's phone
22:20.41infoboteightyeight's phone refactors to 0.383674174744208 picolines of code with the latest rails magic
22:21.08Tod-WorkSo, as a not-really-a-fedora-user fedora user, can anyone tell me how to install a python2.4 alongside my python2.7 without messing up the python2.7?
22:21.14Tod-Workor the rest of the OS?
22:21.41Tod-WorkI suppose I could install it manually
22:21.53jxqzyou can try it and if python2 still points to python2.7, I think you'd be good
22:21.53eightyeightuse update-alternatives(8)
22:22.15jxqzpython is pretty easy for installing parallell versions
22:22.25jxqzor you could just use a virtualenv
22:22.48shalkiedavido_: Part of the chaos is due to the fact that theya re commissioned based. So they are rarely motivated by good customer service if they don't think your going to get them that commission.
22:27.37youtahfozzmoo, just sent me a text message
22:27.46youtahHe just said that JLP's *IS* Closed now
22:27.59youtahI think I even heard him start to cry via text message
22:30.11Tod-Workjxqz, I can't SETUP a virtualenv unless it's installed somewhere
22:30.19shalkiedavido_: Software and More moved to Murray a couple years ago and about a year ago they closed their doors.
22:32.35jxqzTod-Work: oh well, I tried
22:33.26jxqzsoft wares
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22:38.27jxqz~moss
22:38.28infobotI want to go back to being weird. I like being weird. Weird is all I've got. That and my sweet style.
22:40.19eightyeight~moss
22:40.19infobotI want to go back to being weird. I like being weird. Weird is all I've got. That and my sweet style.
22:40.24eightyeightthat's all?
22:41.07eightyeight"See the driver hooks a function by patching the system call table, so it's not safe to unload it unless another thread's about to jump in there and do its stuff, and you don't want to end up in the middle of invalid memory!"
22:41.59eightyeightDid you notice how she didn't even get excited when she saw this original ZX81?
22:42.06programmerqeightyeight: that one is in there
22:42.09programmerq~moss
22:42.09infobotWell that's easy to remember. 0118 999 88199 9119 725! 3!
22:42.13jlp_zncthere used to be a place on winchester across from fashion place mall... I think it was called messick computer or something like that
22:45.19jxqzwhen I need hardware, I go to UU surplus
22:45.38jxqzalmost all of their stuff there comes from the hospital
22:46.02jxqzshows you who has so much money that they can throw out their hardware after a few years
22:46.44jxqzmy old boss in astroparticle physics still has the same single, tiny monitor he's been using for the past like 5 years
22:47.10jxqzand the rest of the stuff they've got came from surplus :)
22:47.36jxqzexcept for the rack mounted stuff that's used for data storage/processing
22:49.01jlp_zncsounds like a problem in budget allocation in that department
22:49.30jlp_zncmost companies (and universities) have a hardware refresh policy that is either three or four years.
22:49.49jxqzjlp_znc: have you ever been in research? :)
22:49.53jlp_zncnow-a-days, a three or four year old computer is just as capable as one you bought today
22:50.23jlp_zncjxqz: I worked for the byu math department for six years... not really a research department, but there was some going on there.
22:50.50programmerqjlp_znc: when were you there?
22:50.59jlp_znc'89-'95
22:51.15jxqzin physics research all your money goes into experimental equipment
22:51.22jlp_zncwell, there you go
22:51.40jxqzthat has to be custom designed and built because, of course, nobody's ever done it before
22:51.58jxqzthere's nothing left over for disposable vanity workstations
22:52.17jxqzlike they have in chemistry or biology
22:52.17jlp_zncseems they could take $1k out of their travel budget and use it to get a new laptop :-/
22:52.20jxqzor math even
22:52.51jlp_zncwe had three main categories of math people:  applied math, theoretical math, and math ed
22:53.12jxqzat UU, the masters students had these awful sun thin clients
22:53.14jlp_zncapplied math wanted the hot/fast computers with cool visualization hardware (SGI)
22:53.21jlp_zncmath ed wanted Macintoshes
22:53.34jlp_zncand theoretical math wanted new chalk boards. :-)
22:53.50jxqzI mean, the UU math dept masters students
22:54.01leviWoo, chalk boards. :)
22:54.26jlp_zncthe theoretical guys would rather put all of their budget into travel
22:54.31jxqzI used to argue with people who think that it's essential to have a calculator to do serious math or physics work
22:54.55leviTravel is pretty important for collaboration.
22:55.17jxqzthe UU math department has chalkboards in the building hallways
22:55.28leviThat's awesome. :)
22:55.43jxqzand huge chaklboards in every phd student office
22:56.22jxqzso big that they cover the entire wall of the 2-person broom closet
22:56.35jxqzand even bigger boards in the professor offices
22:56.45jlp_zncI used to have a guest account on UofU math dept's machines... since I lived in SLC, they let me use their dial-up pool.
22:56.55jlp_zncI suspect I no longer have it. :-)
22:56.56jxqzand the classrooms are practically chalkboarded over
22:59.08leviI like watching MIT lectures with the multi-level chalkboards.
22:59.23leviFill one up, then lift it to expose the one beneath.
23:01.33jxqzI went to a statistical mechanics conference sponsored by UC Something in Park City several years ago
23:02.13jxqzme and a friend drove up from Provo even though we didn't register and sport the 'this person is registered' silly necklace
23:02.24jlp_znclevi: we had chalk boards like that when I went to school
23:02.48leviMuch cooler than today's whiteboards.
23:02.58jxqzthey had 11 chalk boards spanning the stage of one of the rooms and the professors would start on one end and work across
23:02.58jlp_zncor those evil projectors!
23:03.31jlp_zncthe great thing about the chalk boards was the prof could leave what he had written up there so you could copy it down
23:04.08jxqzthe physics depaartment at UU has huge multiboards; they're so big you have to use a rod to grab them
23:04.45jxqzthough I never liked the 'copy down' style myself
23:04.57jxqznever really worked for me
23:06.13jlp_zncI guess people now just take a picture with their phones
23:07.55leviI didn't actually copy a lot of the material, but it was nice to have it up there for a while.
23:08.04jxqzyeah
23:08.43jxqzI never did well with the classroom format
23:09.13jxqzit is ludicrous that that is expected of students clear through PhD, and even beyond in some circumstances
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23:26.50fozzmoodavido_Why not just use Darkroom?
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23:31.46davido_Cameraphone pics of the board miss the point.  Note taking is itself a step in remembering.
23:32.16davido_fozzmoo: I've never found it to be as stable and capable as Lightroom.
23:32.35davido_I've tried to embrace it a couple of times.
23:32.37fozzmooI just used it for the first time this morning. I like it. I've never used Lightroom.
23:33.01davido_I'll bring LR on my laptop to PM next week.
23:33.06fozzmooWell, I take it back. I *hate* the UI to Darktable... but that's because I'm used to normal apps like Digikam and The Gimp.
23:33.24fozzmooI had a heck of a time trying to figure out how to actually save my changes out to another file.
23:33.25davido_oh wait... I don't have a win vm on my laptop, and it doesn't have hardware vm support, so maybe not.
23:33.48fozzmooI had the impression Darktable was modeled after LIghtroom.
23:34.11davido_Yeah, the philosophy behind LR is that it becomes your catalog, and you only export the images when you need them in some specific format.
23:34.23fozzmooBut as far as tweaking photos, it seemed quite capable. But when I got to the point where I wanted to save my changes, I was ready to pull my hair out.
23:34.37davido_I've seen a lot of examples of that "way of doing it" that I hated.  But I got to like LR a lot.
23:35.01fozzmooSo, JPL Computers is, in fact, shut down.
23:35.05fozzmooCompletely empty.
23:35.21fozzmooNo sign to say they've moved or anything.
23:35.24davido_hm, so nobody in UT anymore that supports the computer mechanic?
23:35.46fozzmooSomeone mentioned Universal Systems up on 33rd. If I was closer to that, I'd definitely go there.
23:35.55fozzmooI used to go there quite often when I was running an office in West Valley.
23:36.20davido_Kinda sad. I remember in the 386-486 days I had a system that never wore its cover, and that started as a 386sx33 and ended up as a 486dx4/166.
23:36.21fozzmooThere's a place on 126th in Riverton that I'll have to check out.
23:36.29fozzmoo:)
23:36.52davido_overclocking those old 486's was fun.
23:37.12jnbekfozzmoo: I was up there to JPL few weeks ago
23:37.14davido_Especially because the bus speed was a factor, and VLB cards were very sensitive to bus speed issues.
23:37.23fozzmoojnbek: It's sad.
23:37.37jnbekthey had a sign up saying "thanks for the support over the years but we've closed" (paraphrased)
23:37.40jnbekI was sad
23:37.46davido_I remember one time pushing the motherboard to 50mhz, and suddenly discovering data corruption through the VLB hard drive controller.
23:38.19davido_wasn't there a place called egghead computers, maybe in holiday or murray at one time?
23:38.28fozzmooSounds familiar.
23:38.31fozzmooI think you're right.
23:38.45davido_I think that's where I bought pascal for my Atari 1040ST.
23:38.45davido_haha
23:38.49fozzmooheh heh.
23:38.55fozzmooI wrote a game in Pascal for the ST once.
23:39.08fozzmooBut then I ran out of space on the floppy disc for the data.
23:39.17fozzmoosighs
23:39.23jnbekhehe
23:39.24fozzmooIt was a Zork-like clone.
23:39.46davido_IIRC, the best way to run the pascal compiler was to set half of the 1mb of RAM as a ramdisk so that you could reduce floppy swaps.
23:40.25fozzmooWell, sure enough, I just priced out some components for my build and it was cheaper with Amazon+Prime than with NewEgg.
23:40.26davido_i wasn't one of the fortunate few with a HD.
23:40.39fozzmooI'll get most of my items on Friday.
23:40.45davido_just in time.
23:40.47fozzmooOne of the less important items will be here next week.
23:40.51davido_is there a birthday coming?
23:40.54fozzmooSo, yeah.
23:41.38davido_I would love to find a cheap source for an i7-2700k to upgrade my sandy bridge system.
23:41.51davido_but those things are more expensive than current generation.
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23:42.29fozzmoodavido_: As a matter of fact, yes. :)
23:42.56davido_2+2
23:42.59davido_:)
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23:46.14davido_We're going to try to get a spot at Smith & Morehouse lake / campground friday evening.  It's booked, and I'm told the 11 walk-in sights go fast, but I think that the recent rain might work in my favorl.

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