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| 00:36.19 | jlp_znc | goozbach: are you thinking of someplace like hackerdojo in mountain view ca? |
| 00:36.32 | jlp_znc | (http://www.hackerdojo.com/) |
| 01:00.14 | goozbach | not sure |
| 01:00.20 | goozbach | a tech incubator would be ideal |
| 01:08.39 | jlp_znc | I wonder what the critical mass required is for something like hacker dojo to be successful? (i.e., how many members does it take to meet the bills, and how many people in utah would be interested in being members) |
| 01:11.01 | goozbach | it's a tough issue, that's the core issue |
| 01:12.26 | jlp_znc | it would be fun to start something like that |
| 01:12.41 | jlp_znc | rent one of the empty big box stores in the middle of the valley somewhere |
| 01:12.58 | jlp_znc | trick it out as primo hacker space and sell memberships |
| 01:15.19 | jlp_znc | court local businesses for donations |
| 01:20.16 | goozbach | insurance is a bear |
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| 01:30.13 | jlp_znc | I'm sure you would have to get a lawyer involved :-( |
| 01:30.32 | jlp_znc | especially if you want to make it a non-profit org |
| 01:39.28 | goozbach | yeah |
| 01:39.58 | goozbach | I followed pretty closely a hackerspace starting here in ATL |
| 01:42.16 | goozbach | there's quite a bit involved |
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| 01:53.10 | RyanE | especially if you want to host tools that can fold, spindle, or mutilate. |
| 01:53.25 | RyanE | which is, unsurprisingly, most of the fun ones. :) |
| 02:17.15 | TodPunk | It's typically not very economical to rent a space like that. What you want is a coffee-shop style thing where people don't have a "table" their own per-se. A modern version of an internet cafe |
| 02:18.06 | TodPunk | Transistor has come close, mind |
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| 03:19.41 | TodPunk | Web dev: still bloated "app" hell unless you write raw FastCGI/WSGI/etc |
| 03:20.45 | TodPunk | Learning pyramid today, still wondering how the hell a request comes into the "app" I'm supposed to be thinking in, and why there's 5000 files created to display a hello world page |
| 03:21.43 | TodPunk | as much as I hate on PHP, I could write an entire blog in it in less than an hour full with paging, manually creating the database, authentication I roll myself, etc. These frameworks are always "batteries included" and they don't know how the batteries work |
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| 15:02.55 | jxqz | TodPunk: indeed |
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| 15:33.19 | eightyeight | last night, i was turned away from my temple recommend interview by the stake presidency, because i was not in a white shirt and necktie |
| 15:33.42 | eightyeight | instead, i was in a light blue dress shurt, dark blue dress pants, dress shoes, and no tie |
| 15:35.11 | eightyeight | s/shurt/shirt/ |
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| 15:37.39 | tvc123 | eightyeight: sounds christian to me to turn someone away because of their grooming standards ;) |
| 15:38.00 | eightyeight | yup |
| 15:38.05 | eightyeight | my thoughts too |
| 15:41.58 | RyanE | humans are still human. |
| 15:42.13 | RyanE | but yeah, that's pretty dumb. |
| 15:42.32 | TodPunk | You should ask to see where in the handbook of instructions it requires such a thing |
| 15:42.40 | TodPunk | (hint: it does not) |
| 15:42.56 | RyanE | because that'll sure change their mind! :) |
| 15:42.57 | eightyeight | i have a copy. i will be bringing it sunday, as it has been rescheduled then |
| 15:43.00 | RyanE | oh wait, it won't. |
| 15:43.19 | eightyeight | this comes from the previous stake president, who made an arbitrary list of rules stake members are expected to adhere to |
| 15:43.22 | TodPunk | RyanE: you don't need to ask it in a confrontational way |
| 15:43.47 | RyanE | I've found that 'confrontational' can not be decided by the sender, only by the receiver. |
| 15:43.49 | eightyeight | such as youth not wearing shorts, families not watching tv on vacation, men not growing facial hair, white shirts and ties, etc |
| 15:44.03 | RyanE | wow. |
| 15:44.11 | eightyeight | i'm trying to get a copy of the list |
| 15:44.27 | TodPunk | families not watching tv on vacation.... |
| 15:44.33 | eightyeight | as it was instituted before i moved it. i've only heard about it. |
| 15:44.40 | eightyeight | s/moved it/moved in/ |
| 15:45.06 | RyanE | now... you're sure this is an *LDS* congregation, not an *FLDS* one? :) |
| 15:45.13 | eightyeight | heh |
| 15:45.24 | TodPunk | You don't happen to be in Ogden or something... |
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| 15:45.39 | mrklaw | Someone blogged about the same thing and it sounds like the same Stake President http://iamlds.org/?p=35 |
| 15:45.44 | eightyeight | my wife was asked in her interview last night if she reads romance novels as part of obeying the law of chastity |
| 15:45.52 | eightyeight | mrklaw: that's my blog |
| 15:46.00 | RyanE | yeah, where do you live? Remind me not to move there. |
| 15:46.08 | eightyeight | syracuse. :) |
| 15:46.31 | RyanE | wow, that's more Utah County than *actual* Utah County. :) |
| 15:47.23 | eightyeight | pharisees and sadducees |
| 15:47.27 | eightyeight | is how i view it |
| 15:47.43 | eightyeight | let's admire the trees, without recognizing the forest |
| 15:54.58 | goozbach | wait, what no TV on vacation!? |
| 15:55.03 | goozbach | what's the logic there? |
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| 15:56.17 | tvc123 | In many ways I'm happier having left those things behind |
| 15:58.13 | eightyeight | goozbach: porn |
| 16:00.17 | goozbach | okay? |
| 16:01.01 | eightyeight | yeah. who knew anything about self restraint and internal judgements |
| 16:01.25 | eightyeight | then again, according to my stake presidency, reading romance novels breaks the law of chastity |
| 16:01.39 | eightyeight | you know, things like pride and prejudice, les miserables, ... |
| 16:02.46 | tvc123 | eightyeight: not to mention thats kind of creepy ... him asking your wife ... or daughter those kinds of questions |
| 16:02.56 | tvc123 | or son for that matter |
| 16:03.33 | eightyeight | my wife isn't one to rock the boat, so she won't push back |
| 16:03.36 | eightyeight | i will |
| 16:03.54 | eightyeight | i'm looking forward to the porno question in my interview sunday |
| 16:04.23 | goozbach | a friend (female) got asked if she masturbated, and if so how often and how long. It unnerved her so she asked her husband if he was asked the same question... |
| 16:04.24 | goozbach | he wasn't |
| 16:04.28 | goozbach | which is odd |
| 16:04.36 | eightyeight | yeah. that's bullshit |
| 16:05.03 | goozbach | is *REALLY* looking forward to living in Utah county for these reasons |
| 16:05.07 | goozbach | </sarcasim> |
| 16:05.14 | RyanE | goozbach: not all of UTCO is that oddball. |
| 16:05.24 | eightyeight | i'll be in a white shirt and tie sunday, but i'll be unkempt |
| 16:05.26 | RyanE | ther'es pockets of crazy everywhere. |
| 16:05.31 | goozbach | eightyeight: don't iron it |
| 16:05.37 | RyanE | goozbach: what's an iron? |
| 16:05.41 | goozbach | actually spill some dinner on it intentionally |
| 16:05.42 | eightyeight | unshaven (since yesterday), wrinkled shirt, stained tie |
| 16:05.53 | RyanE | and BO smells |
| 16:05.58 | goozbach | and see if you can get it as unkept as reasonablly possible |
| 16:06.00 | eightyeight | i recently buzzed my hair, otherwise i wouldn't comb it. :) |
| 16:06.16 | goozbach | heck, I'd even iron wrinkles *INTO* the shirt |
| 16:06.30 | eightyeight | if this is the game they want to play, i can _definitely_ dance to this tune |
| 16:06.31 | goozbach | ohh here's another idea... wear holes into the elbows |
| 16:06.46 | goozbach | and fray the cuffs |
| 16:08.19 | eightyeight | if only i could pull this off: http://www.amazon.com/Toms-Ware-Elegant-Casual-TWEL166S-WHITE-L/dp/B00F3DVOGS |
| 16:09.30 | goozbach | hah! |
| 16:10.15 | goozbach | RyanE: it's a mineral you use to craft swords, picks, and other tools out of |
| 16:10.21 | goozbach | you can also craft rails |
| 16:10.27 | RyanE | ah |
| 16:10.31 | RyanE | thx |
| 16:10.45 | goozbach | you have to dig somewhat deep to find it regularly |
| 16:11.02 | goozbach | and IIRC it's easier if you use a stone pick to get it |
| 16:11.35 | RyanE | Irony: "Yes, it's like "goldy" and "bronzy" only it's made out of iron." |
| 16:13.16 | goozbach | should get to work |
| 16:13.21 | goozbach | I sold my house today |
| 16:13.31 | goozbach | so I'm officially homeless (kinda) |
| 16:13.33 | RyanE | you get what you were asking for? |
| 16:14.40 | fadein | hey everybody! goozbach is loaded! lunch on goozbach! |
| 16:16.45 | goozbach | RyanE: we lucked out that we had paid an extra $100/month for the first two years |
| 16:16.55 | goozbach | prior to my being laid off and starting my own business |
| 16:17.10 | goozbach | that act alone gave us some amazing equity |
| 16:17.18 | goozbach | so we got a decent amount from the sale |
| 16:17.18 | RyanE | cool. |
| 16:29.26 | jsmith | goozbach: Glad to hear it :-) |
| 16:29.47 | davido_ | The canyons school district online registration for incoming kindergarteners is deplorably broken. |
| 16:30.42 | tvc123 | is closing on a house in Sandy today |
| 16:30.46 | davido_ | The JS is so bad that as I enter a phone number, as soon as it fills the field, the digits get reversed. I actually had to enter the digits in reverse order. |
| 16:31.14 | RyanE | amazing when someone goes to much *more* work to screw something up. |
| 16:32.16 | davido_ | Then at each step you have to click, "I have completed this step", at which point some "busy indicator" starts whirling around........forever. Exit, come back, form still not filled out. |
| 16:32.40 | davido_ | Maybe it's just chrome on linux. |
| 16:32.43 | davido_ | or chromium |
| 16:32.44 | RyanE | might be easier to just hack into their database, and manually insert your own record. :) |
| 16:33.00 | RyanE | "That's odd, we only have one registration for Kindergarten next year..." |
| 16:33.15 | davido_ | hmm... I can put his name in as "student name; select * from ...." |
| 16:33.22 | davido_ | j/k |
| 16:33.33 | RyanE | "name; drop table students;" |
| 16:33.47 | davido_ | yeah, that was the xkcg cartoon. |
| 16:34.19 | RyanE | little bobby tables. |
| 16:34.23 | RyanE | classic |
| 16:35.40 | davido_ | I give up. I'm going to have to do it in person. It's frustrating when a software developer can't submit web forms. :) |
| 16:35.48 | jxqz | davido_: canyons is teh sux |
| 16:36.05 | davido_ | could be the system is just overloaded... we started today. |
| 16:36.19 | jxqz | well nearly all school districts are teh sux |
| 16:36.41 | unum | davido_: where do you live? |
| 16:36.46 | davido_ | Oh, yesterday I logged in, changed my password, and then logged off and tried to log in again. JS validation wouldn't accept my new password until I cleared the cache!!!!!!! |
| 16:36.58 | davido_ | unum: about 9600s, 2700e. |
| 16:37.21 | davido_ | About a mile west of Wasatch, and a quarter mile south of Little Cottonwood Road. |
| 16:37.53 | davido_ | which means that some portion of the password validation is happening client-side. |
| 16:38.14 | unum | nice I'm sure we looked in that area at some point :) |
| 16:38.31 | unum | we ended up at 12500s and 1300e |
| 16:39.09 | unum | tvc123: where is your house at? |
| 16:39.25 | davido_ | unum: Do you work in Salt Lake county, or Utah county? |
| 16:39.45 | unum | salt lake count, murray |
| 16:39.55 | davido_ | So about 25 mins? |
| 16:40.09 | tvc123 | unum: 11600 and about 1300 East |
| 16:40.14 | unum | I've been doing trax lately |
| 16:40.21 | unum | which takes closer to 45 min |
| 16:40.24 | davido_ | Most of my work is from home, and my wife is at Primary Children's, so her commute is about 22 mins. |
| 16:40.39 | unum | tvc123: nice. |
| 16:41.11 | davido_ | tvc123 you're not far from me then, as a crow flies. |
| 16:41.19 | unum | we looked in murray, but there are more young families in draper, plus you get a little bit more house the further south you go |
| 16:41.29 | RyanE | you guys should toss the crow back and forth sometime. |
| 16:41.49 | davido_ | Draper was a little too much of a commute for her. |
| 16:42.09 | davido_ | We moved from Los Angeles, so Utah was already "more house for your money" |
| 16:42.23 | unum | ya, a lot more I suspect |
| 16:42.35 | davido_ | almost exactly 3x. |
| 16:42.47 | unum | ya you go up wasatch to 15, or just take van winkle all the way in from where you are |
| 16:43.12 | davido_ | She takes wasatch to 215, to foothill, to primary's. |
| 16:44.11 | davido_ | ugh... a bug report from someone who is both unreliable, and not able to boil things down to small test cases. ...almost worse than no report. |
| 16:46.38 | unum | "it's not working" |
| 16:47.40 | tvc123 | davido_: it will be nice to be down in the SLC valley |
| 16:48.33 | davido_ | where were you before? |
| 16:49.44 | davido_ | oh, this web form stuff is just unusable. There's no excuse for it not just being plain old HTML, with server side validation. ...that would at least work. What they have right now clearly doesn't. |
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| 16:52.11 | davido_ | Now I know how it must have felt trying to sign up for Obamacare in the first week. |
| 16:53.45 | tvc123 | davido_: I was up in Logan |
| 16:59.16 | davido_ | Lol, there's a form about school policies that we have to both sign by typing our name (the kindergartener and I) |
| 16:59.34 | davido_ | That seems legit, eh? ;) |
| 17:01.44 | shalkie | It is good to hear that a school is being proactive about contractual law education at a young age. No better way then to get youngsters to sign legal docs. ;) |
| 17:02.58 | RyanE | Yeah, but is there a 23 page TOS you have to read and click 'I Agree' first? |
| 17:05.01 | davido_ | Yes. |
| 17:05.11 | davido_ | There's about 12 "I agree" things we have to click. |
| 17:05.30 | davido_ | I put an X for his signature. I wasn't going to pretend to forge it. ;) |
| 17:05.34 | davido_ | (even though it's just typing) |
| 17:05.54 | jlp_znc | davido_: :-) |
| 17:05.58 | rsimpkins | davido_: Is this a private school? |
| 17:06.03 | davido_ | He can write his name, but I've never encouraged him to sit at the keyboard and type it out yet. I figure in a 1/2 tech family, he's going to have plenty of opportunity. |
| 17:06.11 | jxqz | public schools always attract the stupidest people/policies |
| 17:06.13 | davido_ | No, it's public. canyons school district, granite elementary. |
| 17:06.21 | rsimpkins | davido_: My goodness. |
| 17:06.48 | rsimpkins | I don't think I'd sign that stuff. |
| 17:06.58 | davido_ | It took me 90 minutes because the site is such a mess. |
| 17:07.19 | davido_ | I had to bring up a Windows VM too, because the JS ran amok of google chrome on Ubuntu. |
| 17:37.08 | fadein | davido_: Well, you can take comfort in the fact that none of your tax dollars are being spent on IT |
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| 18:03.03 | jxqz | the person/people who know more than grub2 than me are requested to observe the following data: http://ae7.st/p/96k |
| 18:03.24 | jxqz | what the crap is going on there? |
| 18:04.59 | jxqz | if ubuntu is installed on lvm, the first grub 'set root=' is set to '<hostname>-root'? |
| 18:05.30 | jxqz | firt of all, there's lots of garbage in /boot/grub/grub.cfg |
| 18:05.54 | jxqz | and if I set an actual menuentry to that fake grub root string with the hostname in it, grub will epic fail |
| 18:06.14 | jxqz | so, it's got to be a bug in ubuntu's grub handling |
| 18:10.01 | eightyeight | with grub2, after editing any grub config, you need to run update-grupb(8) |
| 18:10.05 | eightyeight | s/pb/b/ |
| 18:10.54 | jxqz | eightyeight: so? |
| 18:11.30 | jxqz | these are grubs from vanilla installs |
| 18:11.44 | jxqz | no grub config editing involved |
| 18:13.38 | eightyeight | i'm no grub2 expert. i only mentioned that in response to "if I set an actual menuentry to that fake grub root string with the hostname in it, grub will epic fail" |
| 18:13.49 | eightyeight | assuming you were editing a config, and not running the followup command |
| 18:15.29 | jxqz | the more I dig into grub2 the more I'm disgusted |
| 18:15.58 | jxqz | doesn't understand why anyone would use shell script for anything |
| 18:16.57 | eightyeight | ~lart shell scripts |
| 18:16.57 | infobot | wallops shell scripts with a main rotation server that needs rehubbing. It won't take long |
| 18:19.27 | fungus | jxqz, Ubuntu by default names your LVM volume group the hostname of the machine it's installed on. |
| 18:19.51 | fungus | That root designation is simply the LVM name of the root volume as expressed in /dev/mapper |
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| 18:23.17 | jxqz | fungus: indeed, which would be unintelligible to a foreign kernel/initramfs |
| 18:24.18 | fungus | Only if the initramfs doesn't include LVM setup stuff. |
| 18:24.26 | jxqz | so I guess grub2 can comprehend LVM names for it's root config |
| 18:25.11 | jxqz | well, technically it does, but I'm not going to say that it's great |
| 18:25.40 | fungus | grub2 is complicated and ugly, but it supports a lot more booting scenarios than grub1, lilo, etc. |
| 18:25.56 | jxqz | https://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub.html#Device-syntax |
| 18:28.47 | goozbach | jxqz: don't let me show you my bash applications |
| 18:29.11 | jxqz | goozbach: can't be worse than what I've seen |
| 18:30.13 | fungus | I disagree, it is really great that grub supports using LVM names in it's config. Names are much easier to read than using UUIDs, also they are more stable than devide ids |
| 18:31.00 | fungus | Same reason it's a good idea to use LABEL=somelabel in your /etc/fstab. |
| 18:31.07 | jxqz | fungus: are you disagreeing with me? |
| 18:31.22 | jxqz | because I think grub ought to support lvm |
| 18:31.47 | jxqz | I think it's great, it's just our product that can't handle grub2 :( |
| 18:32.34 | fungus | grub2 does support LVM |
| 18:33.31 | jxqz | does it support LVM3 |
| 18:33.36 | jxqz | or 4? |
| 18:33.48 | fungus | LOL |
| 18:34.28 | fungus | Neither does it support booting from your brain. |
| 18:36.01 | fungus | Though grub2 could easily add LVM3 support once it is actually created. |
| 18:43.21 | goozbach | jxqz: 15,134 lines |
| 18:43.37 | goozbach | sh: 13885 (91.75%) |
| 18:43.39 | goozbach | php: 1207 (7.98%) |
| 18:43.41 | goozbach | python: 42 (0.28%) |
| 18:47.39 | eightyeight | ~lart goozbach |
| 18:47.39 | infobot | explains, ever so gently, that if goozbach doesn't give the channel more information, they can't help |
| 18:47.49 | eightyeight | almost apropos |
| 18:48.25 | goozbach | hah! |
| 18:48.25 | jxqz | goozbach: is that a display of each language's efficacy? :) |
| 18:48.40 | goozbach | jxqz: it's from sloccount |
| 18:49.27 | jxqz | actually, python, and even php, sacrifice efficacy for readability |
| 18:49.32 | jxqz | compared to sh |
| 18:51.00 | eightyeight | which is why julia is such a sexy language |
| 18:51.08 | goozbach | julia? |
| 18:51.14 | eightyeight | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_%28programming_language%29 |
| 18:51.24 | eightyeight | or http://julialang.org/ |
| 18:53.35 | goozbach | boo not in epel |
| 18:55.49 | eightyeight | i've only played around with it. i haven't done anything serious with it |
| 18:56.03 | eightyeight | but, from my impression, it's fast fast fast, and clean code |
| 18:59.52 | jxqz | eightyeight: obviously you need to be propagandad into using proprietary google languages |
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| 19:03.02 | eightyeight | jxqz: i like go. the ability to directly import from github is win |
| 19:03.12 | eightyeight | and it's also very fast |
| 19:04.05 | eightyeight | and it's not proprietary, although patented |
| 19:04.29 | jxqz | close enough |
| 19:04.34 | jxqz | that's how they get you |
| 19:05.01 | RyanE | I like Lua |
| 19:07.01 | davido_ | Man, I've never had a positive experience with any custom orders or installs from Home Depot. Lowes is only a marginal improvement. |
| 19:07.02 | goozbach | which one of you is this: http://notalwaysromantic.com/raising-a-family-of-true-barbarians/31276 |
| 19:09.58 | jxqz | lua++ |
| 19:10.23 | RyanE | syntax error. That's one of the things I don't like about Lua. No pre/postincrements... :) |
| 19:10.32 | RyanE | lua = lua + 1 |
| 19:10.49 | jxqz | what about +lua+ ? |
| 19:10.58 | jxqz | prepostcrement |
| 19:11.08 | RyanE | looks like prepostexcrement |
| 19:11.43 | levi | I like that lua doesn't have pre/post increment. |
| 19:13.07 | davido_ | Does it have +=, -=, *=, etc? |
| 19:13.13 | RyanE | nope |
| 19:14.17 | davido_ | Are functions able to modify their params? |
| 19:14.31 | davido_ | (just getting a feel for how pure it aims to be) |
| 19:14.53 | levi | lua isn't intended to be pure, it's intended to be simple. |
| 19:15.07 | davido_ | Ok, that makes sense. |
| 19:15.41 | levi | It's got a very simple core, and a few bits of syntactic sugar which are explained via translation to the core. |
| 19:16.31 | davido_ | That should make it simple both to use and to implement. |
| 19:16.37 | levi | Indeed. |
| 19:17.47 | davido_ | So eschewing a += 1 is not a matter of avoiding side effects, it's about simplicity, because a = a + 1 is simpler. |
| 19:17.55 | eightyeight | jxqz: the patent is royalty-free |
| 19:18.01 | eightyeight | jxqz: https://code.google.com/p/go/source/browse/PATENTS |
| 19:18.36 | davido_ | Certainly a worthy goal. |
| 19:18.46 | eightyeight | so, i'm not sure how google is going to 'get you' |
| 19:18.50 | eightyeight | by using go |
| 19:19.59 | levi | The savings you get from += et al. are not really very significant. |
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| 19:22.29 | levi | eightyeight: Julia and go are both pretty cool, though I personally find Julia a lot more interesting. |
| 19:23.59 | eightyeight | julia and rust have caught my attention recently |
| 19:24.31 | RyanE | it is pretty cool that all of the sudden, new languages are sprouting again. Seems like there was a lag for a while. |
| 19:28.43 | levi | Rust is the most interesting of the three to me, actually. |
| 19:30.13 | levi | RyanE: What do you consider "for a while"? I think they've been cropping up pretty regularly, it's just that they've recently started getting a bit more widespread interest. |
| 19:31.44 | levi | BTW, this is a really interesting talk: http://cheng.staff.shef.ac.uk/illogic/illogic.html |
| 19:31.59 | RyanE | I suppose it's probably just more in the spotlight. |
| 19:32.08 | eightyeight | levi: i would agree. mostly due to the slick concurrency model of rust. |
| 19:32.34 | eightyeight | at least, that is what we have been dealt with most recently with python and flask |
| 19:32.42 | eightyeight | anyway |
| 19:35.07 | levi | Well, go has a nice concurrency model too. But Rust has a much nicer type system, and the ability to have a lot more *safe* control over memory usage and layout. |
| 19:36.11 | levi | Basically, I think Rust is interesting because it intersects heavily with the sort of programming I do at work, which is now nearly all in C. |
| 19:36.51 | jessie | One of the things I love about rust is the ability to go memory unsafe and the way you can hook in to provide language/OS level functions. |
| 19:37.13 | goozbach | grrr need to sell my truck in 2 days |
| 19:37.23 | RyanE | location? |
| 19:37.52 | RyanE | I take it you need to sell, as it's not already located in Utah, right? |
| 19:37.52 | jxqz | eightyeight: that's what they all say |
| 19:38.18 | levi | jessie: Well, you can do that in C++ and D as well, or are you thinking of something different? |
| 19:39.30 | goozbach | RyanE: yeah |
| 19:39.35 | goozbach | sell it in or around athens GA |
| 19:39.38 | RyanE | shame, that. |
| 19:39.44 | RyanE | my 18yo is looking for a vehicle |
| 19:39.45 | jxqz | eightyeight: I bet you're already 'gotten' |
| 19:41.13 | jessie | levi: No, I know you can in C/C++ and D. C++ is not very type safe and the way it does templates sucks. |
| 19:41.22 | jessie | D is a lot better, but never seemed to get much traction. |
| 19:41.38 | goozbach | RyanE: for the right price i'd be willing to drive it out for you |
| 19:42.04 | goozbach | maybe |
| 19:42.34 | levi | jessie: I think it's got more traction than Rust so far; it's just got less *buzz*. |
| 19:42.52 | RyanE | eh, her budget is pretty small, and she's pretty picky. What she really wants is a small foreign truck with a stick shift. |
| 19:43.06 | RyanE | because that's what she had been driving before it died. |
| 19:43.06 | levi | I'd love to see Rust get real traction once it hits 1.0 |
| 19:43.14 | jessie | RyanE: I have a buddy that has a mid 90's Nissan truck that's a manual. |
| 19:43.19 | jessie | Needs a head gasket, though. |
| 19:43.29 | RyanE | yeah, that's what mine needs. |
| 19:43.36 | RyanE | :) |
| 19:43.44 | RyanE | but mine's a 90 |
| 19:43.49 | jessie | levi: That's probably true. I've not had to deal much with system level programming, so I'm mostly just outside looking in. |
| 19:45.35 | levi | I'm a bit annoyed that Rust's syntax got OO-ified. |
| 19:47.00 | jessie | BUT OOP IS BEST. IT MODELS THE REAL WORLD SO WELL! WHAT THINGS AROUND YOU CAN YOU NOT DESCRIBE AS A THING OR OBJECT?! |
| 19:48.28 | RyanE | heh |
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| 19:53.45 | romanovic | OOP is so over, i guess. you can't be on the bleeding hipster edge of programming languages if you still encapsulate data and functionality in objects. |
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| 20:09.33 | eightyeight | levi: indeed. the structural typing is slick |
| 20:13.15 | eightyeight | i need to play more with rust |
| 20:17.39 | TodPunk | I like me some go. I don't do much with it professionally, but I like it |
| 20:17.56 | TodPunk | (and by not much, I mean I do 0% go in my work) |
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| 21:20.29 | jxqz | I find it fitting that chromium's build program is called 'ninja' |
| 21:21.19 | jxqz | as in a ninja is a programmer who codes up your features in record time, gets your money, moves on, and leaves you with an impossibly scrambled codebase |
| 21:22.11 | jsmith | jxqz: You ain't a kiddin' |
| 21:22.17 | jsmith | jxqz: And if you've ever used ninja, you know why it's named that |
| 21:23.18 | RyanE | it throws stars? |
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| 21:29.59 | jsmith | RyanE: It sneaks in dressed in black, hopefully spits out the right outcome, doesn't explain itself, and disappears with destruction in its wake :-p |
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| 21:55.50 | levi | romanovic: I hate "bleeding hipster edge" stuff; I especially hate that I now can't criticize anything established without being associated with their fad-chasing. :/ |
| 21:57.09 | levi | There are plenty of really good ideas in OO languages. |
| 21:58.43 | TodPunk | levi: I think the issue as a programming community is purely based in design-pattern hell and overengineering using that |
| 21:59.05 | romanovic | levi: i understand the sentiment! I worked in the enterprise, in java, where all ideas, actions, connections, parameters, and feelings were transformed into objects. |
| 21:59.24 | TodPunk | there's little with OO I would criticize outside its usage |
| 21:59.59 | romanovic | but OO != a dirty word for me. also, what TodPunk said. |
| 22:00.54 | levi | Well, there are definitely things to criticize about OO, especially as exemplified in today's OO languages. |
| 22:01.58 | TodPunk | I'll take examples for 500, Bob! |
| 22:02.07 | TodPunk | (but no, really, an example would be nice) |
| 22:02.16 | levi | One problem with OO is that it singles out one parameter as a distinguished one for dispatch purposes. |
| 22:03.08 | TodPunk | aaaand we've gone way to CS theory for my understanding |
| 22:03.25 | TodPunk | I trust you, but I don't understand you =c) |
| 22:03.41 | levi | Well, look at Python, for example, because this shows up as the explicit 'self' parameter to methods. |
| 22:05.27 | TodPunk | ok, but how is this a problem? |
| 22:05.31 | levi | In other OO languages, it's an *implicit* parameter even if it doesn't show up in the parameter list. |
| 22:05.49 | TodPunk | yes, like C++ and Java and such |
| 22:06.02 | TodPunk | *this* |
| 22:06.04 | levi | It's a problem because behavior can only vary based on that *one* parameter. |
| 22:06.23 | levi | It's the only point of polymorphism. |
| 22:06.40 | jxqz | levi: but what if you used 'elvis' instead of 'self'? |
| 22:06.45 | TodPunk | without globals or using statics, yeah |
| 22:06.51 | jxqz | that would sure change things |
| 22:07.18 | TodPunk | but that's kind of just how OO organizes code. It's a self-inflicted limitation, not necessarily a "problem" per se |
| 22:07.21 | levi | But there are plenty of operations that are inherently binary, for example, and their operation varies based on the type of *two* parameters. |
| 22:09.19 | levi | There are OO languages which don't have this problem, though: CLOS being the earliest example, probably. |
| 22:10.17 | TodPunk | Sorry, I'm really not seeing how this is a problem at all. Pass in another parameter, call it a day? |
| 22:11.13 | levi | You have spent too much time writing OO code, apparently. |
| 22:11.23 | TodPunk | To me, an OO problem used to be that you'd have a huge class hierarchy and if you wanted to change one class you'd change everything in that hierarchy and everything that uses that class, but decoupling (especially with interfaces) has sort of fixed a lot of that |
| 22:11.49 | levi | Well, that is also a problem. |
| 22:12.01 | TodPunk | Actually, I mostly have written imperative code for the most part |
| 22:12.27 | levi | Hmm. Well, maybe you have not written enough OO code to recognize the problem, then. ;) |
| 22:12.44 | TodPunk | I don't have the mathiness love of functional programming, and even my Java/C# is very C-Like in its approach |
| 22:13.14 | TodPunk | that's probably true, yeah |
| 22:13.23 | levi | I think there's a sweet spot, where you have written enough to say "WTF, why is this so awkward?!" and then you just get used to it and don't think how there might be another way. |
| 22:13.58 | levi | But the concept of a 'friend' class in C++ is a symptom of the problem. |
| 22:14.24 | levi | And another ugly symptom is the bignum stuff in Java. |
| 22:14.52 | TodPunk | possibly, I just don't think about code that abstract way. I'm always writing code to DO something, so abstractions are frustrating as hell because I'm always thinking "Ok, that's great, but what the hell is being executed and in what order?" |
| 22:15.35 | TodPunk | I have this problem (right now, actually) with modern web dev. All this "application" bullshit is just ignoring the idea that http is stateless, and we're just assuming that we'll get a session cookie or something to carry data between requests |
| 22:15.38 | levi | There's no naturally privileged operand to 'plus'. But you must make one, and a specific one, be priviliged in an OO language. |
| 22:15.52 | TodPunk | you ask web framework pundits about it and they're like, "what do you mean?" |
| 22:16.26 | TodPunk | programming just makes me feel old anymore |
| 22:17.00 | levi | Programming languages are full of very poor abstractions, which are terribly frustrating because you can't treat them as real abstractions. |
| 22:17.51 | TodPunk | You can if you understand their limitations and edges, but even their creators don't understand these half the times. They're building their abstractions on top of other abstractions |
| 22:19.27 | levi | If you have to have intimate knowledge of what they're hiding in order to use them correctly, they're not really abstractions. |
| 22:19.58 | TodPunk | in many ways, yes |
| 22:20.04 | jxqz | instractions |
| 22:20.07 | TodPunk | they're just functions on top of functions =cP |
| 22:20.09 | jxqz | restractions |
| 22:20.53 | TodPunk | I guess what I'm really trying to say here is, Pyramid is annoying |
| 22:22.07 | levi | Anyway, to get back to the dispatch topic... Julia actually gets this right, while Rust bows to popularity and gets it wrong. |
| 22:22.28 | TodPunk | for now, or is that a permanent thing? |
| 22:23.09 | levi | Well, at least Rust gets its trait dispatch system syntactically wrong. |
| 22:24.08 | TodPunk | you know they wildly change things in Rust still, right? I know there's a few things they've basically all but locked down (or so I'm told) but sweeping changes are not unheard of even recently |
| 22:25.35 | levi | This bit of Rust is pretty well locked-in. |
| 22:25.53 | TodPunk | mmm, sad |
| 22:26.39 | levi | Yeah. Traits are modeled roughly after Haskell's type class system, but in a hobbled way that's forced to look like object/method dispatch. |
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| 22:27.28 | jxqz | strict types are boring |
| 22:27.50 | levi | Most arguments about type systems are boring. |
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| 22:28.09 | levi | Type systems can be very interesting, though. |
| 22:28.37 | TodPunk | unless your processor has types, it all boils down to code organization and nothing more, so a form of opinion |
| 22:31.11 | jxqz | I refuse to boil my code |
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| 22:32.11 | jxqz | I find c++ typing to be excessively aggravating |
| 22:43.05 | levi | Not really. Types are fundamental to programming, whether they're explicit or checked or whatever. |
| 22:43.54 | levi | C++ types are indeed disastrous. |
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| 22:53.24 | levi | I'm not a hard-liner about how programming languages should deal with the issue of types, but I think a lot of programmers don't understand the connection between types and programming. I didn't really, until recently. |
| 22:54.41 | levi | But there's actually a wide variety of ways in which the concept of 'type' can interact with programming languages, and the languages in common use only scratch the surface. |
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| 23:19.52 | programmerq | levi: is there an article talking about what you're referring to? |
| 23:19.54 | programmerq | it sounds interesting. |
| 23:20.43 | TodPunk | so many |