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| 02:23.19 | TodPunk | romanovic: I can not stress this enough: do NOT get your internet without a wire unless you absolutely must. If you live in any place that is incorporated as a city, you should not be doing wireless. |
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| 03:09.48 | fugue88 | TodPunk: Why's that? I switched from Comcast (only wired provider available in my incorporated city) to Digis and have been happy. |
| 03:12.17 | goozbach | I'll be on spanisfork net |
| 03:12.42 | goozbach | scfn |
| 03:12.49 | goozbach | wondering how it'll be |
| 03:13.00 | RyanE | sfcn is pretty good |
| 03:13.28 | RyanE | My parents are in SF and like it. |
| 03:13.44 | RyanE | I've been told that it's one of the better ones for a cable system type. |
| 03:13.53 | RyanE | It's not oversold at the same rate as some of the others (Comcast, etc.) |
| 03:14.21 | goozbach | they actually advertise thusly |
| 03:14.40 | goozbach | "we're not oversold" |
| 03:14.44 | goozbach | not exact quote |
| 03:14.51 | RyanE | Of course, my source of that info is my neighbor, the Director of SFCN... :) |
| 03:15.14 | goozbach | :) |
| 03:15.36 | RyanE | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKHxxSXMsjk |
| 03:15.43 | RyanE | This guy (in the white sirt) |
| 03:15.45 | RyanE | shirt |
| 03:17.13 | TodPunk | fugue88: your anecdote of being happy with it does not make it a poor infrastructure decision any more than potholes being filled with gravel may not affect you yet |
| 03:17.25 | TodPunk | *not a poor |
| 03:18.13 | TodPunk | fugue88: if you're avoiding Comcast for some philosophical reason, then fine, I guess that's another viable reason to not have nice things or something |
| 03:18.14 | goozbach | the biggest question is⦠is 20 meg sufficent |
| 03:18.37 | RyanE | yeah, that I couldn't tell you. I'm sure my parents have whatever "the default" is. |
| 03:19.06 | TodPunk | SFCN isn't bad. It's not great, but it's not bad. |
| 03:19.08 | RyanE | it was even running sub-par for probably 2-3 months, with issues, they didn't call. They waited until I was down there before I called in. |
| 03:19.15 | RyanE | SFCN fixed it the next day. |
| 03:19.17 | RyanE | :) |
| 03:19.48 | TodPunk | just wants his Utopia |
| 03:19.53 | RyanE | Yeah, it's still a cable-based system, so there's some drawbacks to that, I'm sure, but it's better than options I have here in Highland. |
| 03:20.14 | TodPunk | if only Orem wasn't influenced by morons and old people so much |
| 03:20.42 | TodPunk | government and tech, ugh |
| 03:20.43 | goozbach | meh, the wife said the price for the 55meg "not too bad" |
| 03:20.49 | goozbach | so yeah.. we'll get the 55meg |
| 03:21.14 | TodPunk | feels for pashdown |
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| 04:04.06 | fugue88 | TodPunk: Is paying into the existing wired monopoly a better infrastructure decision? |
| 04:04.56 | fugue88 | If continuing with comcast somehow encouraged my city to build out its own lines, or to lease pole space to other providers, or provide discounts to others, or something, I'd consider it. |
| 04:06.38 | TodPunk | as I said: "if you're avoiding Comcast for some philosophical reason, then fine, I guess that's another viable reason to not have nice things or something" |
| 04:07.17 | fugue88 | TodPunk: As you also said, "your anecdote of being happy with it does not make it a poor infrastructure decision |
| 04:07.30 | TodPunk | *not a poor |
| 04:07.36 | fugue88 | Right, copy-paste. |
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| 04:07.51 | fugue88 | Nevertheless, you failed to connect my decision to avoid comcast with poor infrastructure. |
| 04:08.39 | TodPunk | comcast has nothing to do with your decision being a poor infrastructure decision. your choice to go to wireless does |
| 04:08.49 | fugue88 | Fine. How? |
| 04:09.00 | TodPunk | because wireless is a poor infrastructure decision |
| 04:09.09 | TodPunk | I'm not sure how this is a confusing concept |
| 04:09.55 | fugue88 | No need to belittle because you haven't explained yourself. |
| 04:09.59 | fugue88 | :P |
| 04:10.43 | fugue88 | I consider having a single wired provider to be "poor infrastructure" just as much as having wireless providers. |
| 04:10.56 | TodPunk | "belittle" I see. You're that kind of internet 'debate' person |
| 04:11.13 | fugue88 | As I see it, paying into the one wired provider doesn't help bring a second wired provider. |
| 04:12.07 | fugue88 | TodPunk: I'm laying out my argument clearly. You're not, and claim that your omission shouldn't be "confusing." |
| 04:12.21 | TodPunk | you're talking about providers, who gives a damn? |
| 04:12.31 | TodPunk | I'm talking about the cable vs the lack of one. |
| 04:12.45 | TodPunk | Who owns the cable isn't even involved here. you're the one that keeps bringing it up |
| 04:13.00 | fugue88 | So, explain! |
| 04:13.42 | TodPunk | I'm saying the existence of a cable is measurably more reliable and servicable than any version of not having a cable, and your answers so far have been "I'm happy without one." and "the owner of the cable shouldn't be supported" |
| 04:14.40 | TodPunk | this is exactly the same as me saying "this bridge is a better service than risking the waves by fjording" and your response is "the owner is a jerk, explain yourself!" |
| 04:15.37 | TodPunk | essentially, you're having an entirely different conversation unrelated to and unwarranted by the first, and then complaining that I'm being unclear |
| 04:15.52 | fugue88 | I happen to have been measuring my service under both comast and digis. Digis has had fewer outages and of shorter duration. |
| 04:16.27 | fugue88 | TodPunk: You've failed to explain why they're different other than by delcaration and false analogy. |
| 04:17.17 | TodPunk | ok, cool, here, have 7 internets and whatever title or thing or commendation or whatever it is you think you need out of this conversation. I'm going to be back to doing things and you can continue pontificating about how you feel about your infrastructure, whatever it is you're defining that to be for the moment. Cheers |
| 04:17.44 | fugue88 | I'm sure you've convinced a lot of people here. |
| 04:17.58 | TodPunk | mhmmm, which was obviously my aim |
| 04:18.23 | fugue88 | Sure, congrats, you win. |
| 04:18.45 | TodPunk | The fact that you think there is a "winner" is actually part of the problem |
| 04:19.15 | fugue88 | TodPunk: You're the one who brought that concept into this discussion in the first place. Have your 7 internets back. |
| 04:19.50 | fugue88 | I was hoping for some honest discussion and to understand your viewpoint. |
| 04:20.03 | TodPunk | No, you want to talk politics instead |
| 04:20.04 | fugue88 | And there are many in this channel that know me personally that would vouch for that. |
| 04:21.04 | TodPunk | actually, scratch that, sorry, I should not have been baited back. |
| 04:34.58 | jxqz | yeah, a real argument! |
| 04:35.06 | jxqz | how long has it been? |
| 04:37.29 | TodPunk | did it get to the point of being a real thing? Did I get taken that far? =c/ |
| 04:38.28 | jxqz | you're losing steam already? :( |
| 04:39.05 | jxqz | misses the wild invective days of the young intarwebz; but now everyone is old and boring |
| 04:39.32 | jxqz | and the new nerds, they just don't know how to argue with class |
| 04:40.27 | TodPunk | hehehe "class" |
| 04:42.05 | TodPunk | I have had too many discussions with hipster programmers this last month where the only things that mattered to them were how obscure their music was and how cool javascript is. I think it's less that they don't know how to argue and more that there's very few people with our behavioral patterns |
| 04:43.01 | TodPunk | such is the way of making something accessible to everyone, it drives out the original quirks, for good or ill. *shrug* I'm not sure how I feel about that at the moment. |
| 04:45.47 | TodPunk | This is just fun in the way Cosmos is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKMQzkIiB0Y |
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| 06:00.23 | romanovic | TodPunk: in response to your earlier comment, i've heard bad things about Digis and I experienced Clear, and was so put off I refused to even try them. I just suffered comcast. But vivint wireless *sounds* leaps and bounds ahead of other local wireless internet services |
| 06:01.53 | romanovic | if i were hosting anything at home, I probably wouldn't move (although, vivint wireless advertises 50mbps both ways. if upload is even 1/3 of that, it will be a lot faster than comcast) |
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| 06:03.16 | romanovic | they have a free 1-month trial period and are waiving installation fees. I chose a month-to-month plan after that. If i have any trouble, I can always crawl back to comcast |
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| 15:00.16 | jxqz | heh, hipster javascript programmers |
| 15:01.37 | jxqz | I know this phenomenon |
| 15:09.18 | eightyeight | what is 'hipster javascript'? |
| 15:17.44 | jsmith | eightyeight: Real hipsters use ECMAscript? |
| 15:17.47 | jsmith | ducks and hides |
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| 15:38.55 | jxqz | is there a way to get dpkg or dpkg-query to list only the package names of installed packages matching a pattern? |
| 15:39.45 | jxqz | it seems you can list the installed packages in a helpful format, or package names of every package in the universe, but not just the names of installed packages |
| 15:40.06 | jxqz | debian is such a superior distro that way |
| 15:40.08 | eightyeight | $ dpkg -l | grep '<regex>' |
| 15:40.32 | jxqz | eightyeight: doesn't list just pkg names |
| 15:40.46 | jxqz | and besides, I was hoping to not have to resort to shell hax |
| 15:41.03 | eightyeight | $ dpkg -l | awk '/<regex>/ {print $2}' |
| 15:41.04 | jxqz | I know I can use awk or cut or whatever, but that is bad form |
| 15:41.20 | jxqz | dpkg fail |
| 15:41.39 | eightyeight | have you read the dpkg(1) manpage |
| 15:41.45 | jxqz | many times |
| 15:41.53 | eightyeight | specifically about "--showformat=<format>"? |
| 15:42.01 | jxqz | have you read the dpkg(2) manpage? |
| 15:43.53 | jxqz | eightyeight: that's a dpkg-query option and I have been using it, but it still returns all packages, not just the installed one |
| 15:44.10 | jxqz | I can just use the shell hax, I guess |
| 15:44.29 | eightyeight | http://ae7.st/p/6q4 |
| 15:44.45 | jxqz | dpkg-query -W -f='${Package}\n' 'grub*' |
| 15:45.06 | levi | hipster javascript; the language that RoR developers use to write webscale node.js apps. |
| 15:46.02 | jxqz | eightyeight: that command returns pkgs that are not installed for me. I don't know how to get dpkg-query to filter installed pkgs |
| 15:46.07 | jxqz | levi: heh |
| 15:47.31 | jxqz | also, strangely, it doesn't list as many packages as `aptitude search grub`, even accounting for double architecture |
| 15:48.44 | eightyeight | aptitude(1) searches package descriptions as well as package names |
| 15:49.32 | jxqz | yes, but the list of packages returned by aptitude returns more packages with 'grub' in their name than dpkg-query does |
| 15:49.53 | eightyeight | re: listing only installed packages, then i would go back to "dpkg -l | awk '/^ii <regex>/ {print $2}'" |
| 15:50.35 | levi | jxqz: This is unix, man. Pipe composition is the Right Way to do stuff. |
| 15:50.41 | jxqz | http://ae7.st/p/6jo |
| 15:50.47 | jxqz | levi: ugh |
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| 15:51.32 | eightyeight | jxqz: #debian on oftc might be better help than i |
| 15:51.41 | levi | jxqz: Don't like it?! Windows is that ( ------> ) way, dude!! |
| 15:52.19 | jxqz | if you have to haxor the output to get what you want, then what you want is either sufficiently uncommon, or the tool itself is incomplete |
| 15:52.48 | eightyeight | or the tool doesn't accomodate every single person's wants and needs |
| 15:53.05 | eightyeight | shrug. to each their own |
| 15:53.27 | eightyeight | many times, a "command | grep" is faster than scowering a manpage for options to just run "command -a -b -c -d" |
| 15:54.02 | eightyeight | nothing wrong in learning the switches of the command though |
| 15:54.13 | jxqz | many years of experience with templating and regex and quickparsing have learned me the ugliness and pain of informal text manipulationn |
| 15:54.39 | jxqz | eightyeight: truly, but what I'm dealing with is $Product written in bash, gah |
| 15:54.57 | jxqz | I don't want to haxor in the quickgrep soln if I don't have to |
| 15:56.43 | eightyeight | according to dpkg(1), when a pattern is not provided, then only installed packages/configs are listed from /var/lib/dpkg/status. |
| 15:56.56 | eightyeight | otherwise, if you provide a pattern, everything is listed, installed or not |
| 15:57.15 | jxqz | what does dpkg(0) say? |
| 15:57.16 | eightyeight | IE: "dpkg-query -l 'libc6*'" vs "dpkg-query -l" |
| 15:58.50 | jxqz | dpkg --get-selections 'grub*' | awk '{print $1}' # :-/ |
| 15:58.58 | eightyeight | so, it seems the only way to get what you want explicitly, is piping |
| 16:05.52 | jxqz | eightyeight: `command -a -b -c -d` is also often more resource efficient than `command | grep ...` |
| 16:06.14 | eightyeight | saves the pids |
| 16:06.50 | levi | jxqz: The answer is not "add more switches!", it's "use a structured format rather than plain text!" |
| 16:07.10 | levi | But alas, that way is not the Unix way. |
| 16:08.00 | eightyeight | and try getting every unix developer to agree on a structured format |
| 16:08.18 | fadein | well, we can all agree that it's NOT going to be XML |
| 16:09.05 | levi | Well, it shouldn't be a textual format at all; that'd defeat the purpose. |
| 16:09.26 | jxqz | yaml |
| 16:09.38 | levi | Powershell, for example, has some sort of 'table' internal format for piping results. |
| 16:10.20 | jxqz | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Information_Model_%28computing%29 |
| 16:12.55 | eightyeight | and try getting every debian/fedora/gentoo/etc developer to agree on an internal format. :) |
| 16:13.06 | levi | For more configuration management coolness, see: http://augeas.net/ |
| 16:13.10 | jxqz | http://augeas.net/ |
| 16:13.16 | jxqz | darn |
| 16:13.16 | levi | Heh. |
| 16:13.28 | jxqz | it took me too long to find that |
| 16:14.11 | jxqz | levi: what do you mean by not a 'textual format'? |
| 16:14.49 | jxqz | going away from directly human-readable is detrimental |
| 16:14.58 | fadein | jxqz++ |
| 16:15.40 | jxqz | and xml is not human-readabl |
| 16:15.42 | jxqz | e |
| 16:16.08 | fadein | again, jxqz++ |
| 16:16.21 | jxqz | <isThisHuManReadaBle>0</isThisHuManReadaBle> |
| 16:24.14 | levi | jxqz: Of course there should be human readable output. But there's little point in translating it to text and back if you're just piping it to another program. |
| 16:25.53 | levi | jxqz: And if you've got a common format for passing data between programs, then you can move the creation of nicely formatted human-readable output to a single program; perhaps your shell, perhaps custom formatters to convert to JSON or YAML or XML or whatever you please. |
| 16:27.21 | fadein | levi: dude, I already said it won't be XML |
| 16:27.30 | fadein | and what if the data is in a textual format to begin with? |
| 16:27.36 | levi | *sigh* |
| 16:27.42 | levi | WOOOOSH |
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| 16:28.09 | fadein | what kind of data are you talking about? |
| 16:28.16 | fadein | I'm thinking of the output of something like grep |
| 16:28.57 | levi | Maybe you should first think of the output of something like ps |
| 16:30.13 | fadein | right - I agree that your idea lends itself to ps, ls (some output formats, anyway), nmap, |
| 16:30.37 | fadein | but should we impose it on other tools as well? |
| 16:30.41 | levi | OK; so what's the input of grep? What's the output? |
| 16:30.48 | fadein | text -> text |
| 16:30.55 | levi | Please think harder. |
| 16:30.57 | fadein | you can tell grep to give you stuff like linenumber and highlighting |
| 16:31.30 | levi | OK; so the input is "unstructured text", the output is some set of data about matches. |
| 16:33.00 | levi | Sometimes you just want a list of filenames. Sometimes you want a list of line numbers. Sometimes you want the raw matching lines. |
| 16:34.20 | levi | The current procedure is to memorize some grep-specific flags and output formats and perhaps do some text parsing if you want, say line numbers *and* matching text. |
| 16:34.32 | fadein | k |
| 16:35.24 | levi | So... why not return the results as a stream of records from which you can select the fields you want *without* having to parse some arbitrary textual format? |
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| 16:41.42 | fadein | yeah, I can see the appeal of that approach |
| 16:41.52 | fadein | but it still feels somehow narrow |
| 16:42.13 | levi | Not at all. |
| 16:42.14 | fadein | but it would be a huge improvement for that case |
| 16:42.32 | levi | You can still have tools that parse arbitrary languages into streams of records. |
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| 16:43.10 | levi | You just don't have to duplicate parsing/printing code everywhere. |
| 16:43.18 | fadein | that is the appealing part |
| 16:43.38 | fadein | I'd also like to not have to write one kind of parsing code for the AIX tools, and another for the GNU tools |
| 16:44.14 | levi | Well, now we're bumping into reality. |
| 16:46.29 | levi | Naturally this is going to either be a whole new set of utilities, or be native to some other OS. So in the alternative reality where someone took this approach early in the Unix days, you'd get that, sure. But good luck changing heavily entrenched Unix ways of doing things. |
| 16:48.00 | fadein | I'd welcome a new set of utilities |
| 16:48.22 | fadein | you'd think that would be a good way forward, but I suppose it may not be, else this would be the reality already |
| 16:48.36 | fadein | it does suck hard to parse stuff out on AIX vs Linux; |
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| 16:49.16 | jxqz | lol @ levi,fadein |
| 16:49.47 | fadein | but on the other hand, adding "structure" seems to solve one problem at the expense of another |
| 16:50.59 | jxqz | augeas seems promising in this regard |
| 16:51.01 | levi | Imagining that something must not be good because things haven't been done that way is, frankly, a pretty poor way of judging goodness. |
| 16:51.56 | jxqz | you could create your own set of utils that could be installed everywhere, fadein-utils, that autotranslate whatever is necessary for the platform at hand |
| 16:52.00 | fadein | I'm just saying that we're trading one API for another because the old way is "old" |
| 16:52.11 | levi | No, this has nothing to do with "old" |
| 16:52.18 | fadein | "not hip enough" |
| 16:52.23 | levi | Or "hip" |
| 16:52.43 | jxqz | levi: obviously the solution is to just ADD MORE JAVASCRIPT!!1 |
| 16:52.57 | fadein | jxqz: I was thinking along the lines of gestural interfaces |
| 16:53.12 | jxqz | interesting |
| 16:53.23 | jxqz | and important too |
| 16:53.31 | fadein | levi: you're probably right. If I used the structural utils for two hours I'm sure I'd be all the way won over |
| 16:53.45 | fadein | especially if the chosen structure wasn't XML |
| 16:53.49 | levi | ... |
| 16:54.05 | fadein | I guess my hesitation comes down to this: I really like plain text because the computer isn't hiding anything from me |
| 16:54.23 | fadein | I find most "let me do that for you" tools to be a bigger PITA when they do break |
| 16:54.33 | fungus | The problem of passing data structures is that it requires cooperation between all tool developers. This is a hard problem. |
| 16:54.36 | fadein | because the clever guy who made them isn't around to fix it when it goes wrong |
| 16:54.53 | levi | I'm sorry I have not been able to make my point clear, but I have apparently failed miserably. |
| 16:55.01 | fadein | and then I have to get into his head to figure out all of the clever crap he was doing to "help" me |
| 16:55.27 | levi | fungus: Only if you don't provide a common infrastructure to work with. |
| 16:56.35 | fungus | interesting. |
| 16:57.38 | fadein | The other problem being the same one as Python3 is having |
| 16:58.07 | fadein | the 1st draft of this "common infrastructure" would cover 90% of cases, with the other 10% being horrible hacks and abuses of the standard structure |
| 16:58.26 | youtah | So... what do the last two integers mean in the fstab? |
| 16:58.32 | fadein | so you'd have to throw that one away and make a new backwards-incompatible format |
| 16:58.39 | youtah | Example: /dev/sdb1 /disk1 ext3 defaults 1 2 |
| 16:58.54 | youtah | What do the 1 and 2 flags/args stand for |
| 16:59.01 | fadein | then there are three ways to do it: the crufty un-hip UNIX way, the new good way that caught on, and the newer better way that nobody wants to adopt |
| 16:59.11 | youtah | 's google foo is not working |
| 16:59.19 | fadein | youtah: man fstab |
| 16:59.27 | fadein | fs_freq and fs_passno |
| 16:59.28 | youtah | I'm already there |
| 16:59.41 | levi | fadein: There is currently a common structure. It's called field-delimited text. Providing a richer structure makes nothing *worse* than that. |
| 16:59.52 | fungus | youtah, man fstab |
| 17:00.03 | youtah | lol, I am already there |
| 17:00.05 | youtah | http://linux.die.net/man/5/fstab |
| 17:00.09 | fadein | levi: agreed |
| 17:00.18 | fadein | and I even think it will make things better |
| 17:00.32 | fadein | but will it make things better enough to justify the cost of effort to get there? |
| 17:00.36 | fungus | First number indicates if the FS should be "dumped" |
| 17:00.43 | levi | fadein: So WTF is all this crap about "hipness" and "horrible hacks and abuses"? :P |
| 17:00.47 | youtah | fungus, fadein I have no idea what it is talking about |
| 17:00.48 | fungus | Second number indicates the order for filechecks. |
| 17:00.48 | fadein | I think the consensus is "not better enough", which expains why it doesn't exist |
| 17:01.27 | fadein | hipness == "i'm young in the 21st century, so my ways are automatically better than the greybeards of the 1970s" |
| 17:01.32 | youtah | I understand the fs_passno though |
| 17:01.32 | levi | I think the consensus is "UNIX IS THE BEST!!!" |
| 17:01.36 | youtah | just not this dump thingy |
| 17:01.50 | fungus | youtah, the first number is used only for dump. It's an old-school backup system. |
| 17:02.07 | fungus | http://dump.sourceforge.net/ |
| 17:02.15 | fadein | horrible hacks and abuses == "they didn't think of my specific need, so I'll just kinda overload this thing over here..." |
| 17:02.23 | levi | I think the consensus is "NO ONE ELSE FROM THE 70s COULD POSSIBLY HAVE HAD BETTER IDEAS THAN THE UNIX GUYS!!!!!" |
| 17:02.26 | youtah | takes a good look at dump |
| 17:02.38 | fadein | my pessimistic prediction is that we'll basically end up in the exact same place |
| 17:02.53 | youtah | Okay, so I don't want any dumping... as I don't want it to be backed up anywhere |
| 17:03.03 | youtah | so I guess 0 is the option I want |
| 17:03.06 | fungus | yes |
| 17:03.08 | youtah | Gracias fungus |
| 17:03.21 | fadein | but that doesn't stop people from making really neat JavaScript spreadsheets, so don't let me discourage you |
| 17:03.57 | youtah | fungus, I read this "The fifth field, (fs_freq), is used for these filesystems by the dump(8) command to determine which filesystems need to be dumped." ....... and I was like WTF does that mean? |
| 17:04.10 | levi | Yeah, clearly I have been talking about javascript spreadsheets. |
| 17:04.18 | fadein | levi: let's compromise - I'll become your biggest cheerleader if you'll use s-expressions for the syntax of the common format |
| 17:04.19 | levi | fadein: Have fun with your Unix crap! |
| 17:04.32 | fadein | levi: I do and I will! |
| 17:05.10 | fungus | youtah, dump is way old and comes from the pre-Linux UNIX days. It's not a bad tool, works quite well, but not as fancy as what we have today. |
| 17:06.10 | youtah | got learned today |
| 17:06.15 | youtah | Gracias! |
| 17:06.28 | fungus | gets learned everyday, or at least tries to. |
| 17:07.50 | youtah | was like "I need to put my headphones on to cancel out this noise" ... goes to grab headphones, realizes they're already on his head and it was the guy talking in the music that was the noise I wanted silenced. |
| 17:08.22 | levi | fadein: I'm pretty much done discussing this with you, but you might want to think on why the creators of Unix moved on from Unix, but the rest of the world hasn't? |
| 17:08.51 | eightyeight | youtah: re: the last two numbers in the fstab(5): |
| 17:08.55 | fadein | levi: that's fine. Is there an implementation of this concept (besides PowerShell) that I could play with? |
| 17:09.39 | fadein | is there an alternative OS or Distro that's actively working towards this? |
| 17:09.40 | eightyeight | youtah: the first of those numbers is either only '0' or '1', on whether or not you wish to backup the fs using dump(1) |
| 17:10.14 | fadein | for all of my curmudgeoning, I'm truly curious and interested in the idea |
| 17:10.16 | eightyeight | youtah: the second of those numbers in the order in which an fsck(8) is performed. generally, this is '0', '1', or '2', with '0' == do not check |
| 17:10.32 | eightyeight | youtah: you typically want your root fs mounted to '/' to be checked first. the rest following |
| 17:10.50 | youtah | so |
| 17:10.53 | eightyeight | youtah: and it doesn't make sense to check virtual filesystems, or tmpfs/ramfs, such as /proc, /sys, etc |
| 17:11.01 | eightyeight | nor back them up |
| 17:11.06 | youtah | I dont see /dev/sda in there |
| 17:11.13 | eightyeight | ok |
| 17:11.37 | youtah | so.... I dont get why |
| 17:11.48 | eightyeight | what are you expecting? |
| 17:17.33 | *** join/#utah infobot (ibot@rikers.org) |
| 17:17.33 | *** topic/#utah is Utah related discussion including user groups | logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | See also ##lds | OpenWest Conference sometime 2014! openwest.org | https://fiber.google.com/cities/provo/ |
| 17:17.34 | *** mode/#utah [+o infobot] by ChanServ |
| 17:17.45 | eightyeight | youtah: first, you need the binary installed |
| 17:17.48 | eightyeight | which isn't by default |
| 17:18.07 | eightyeight | then, you would run: |
| 17:18.27 | eightyeight | # dump -W |
| 17:18.56 | eightyeight | there are smarter backup utilities though, so i wouldn't worry about dump(8) |
| 17:19.32 | eightyeight | unless you absolutely need to support it, that is |
| 17:19.53 | youtah | yeah |
| 17:20.00 | youtah | just curious at this point |
| 17:21.18 | davido_ | Has anyone noticed Google Maps stopped speaking street names? |
| 17:21.34 | youtah | hates the new Google Maps |
| 17:21.38 | davido_ | Or am I just unlucky? |
| 17:21.46 | youtah | Thanks a ton eightyeight ... huge help |
| 17:21.51 | eightyeight | np |
| 17:22.11 | jessie | youtah: The thing I hate about Google Maps is trying to search maps.google.com from the omnibar doesn't work. :-( |
| 17:22.14 | eightyeight | btw, you can also use "LABEL=" for the device to mounte |
| 17:22.18 | eightyeight | as a side note |
| 17:22.26 | eightyeight | s/mounte/mount/ |
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| 17:23.07 | eightyeight | which is a bit more human readable, provided the filesystem has a label applied to it |
| 17:23.31 | eightyeight | does run into the higher potential of duplicate label names though, where UUID less so |
| 17:24.05 | davido_ | Oh, the desktop version occasionally crashes chrome or chromium on my Ubuntu system... I was talking about the android app. |
| 17:25.43 | youtah | I hope you wouldn't have that many labels |
| 17:26.37 | youtah | In mother russia, you don't fsck your drive. Your drive fsck you.</accent> |
| 17:27.47 | jxqz | ~label youtah |
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| 17:29.13 | eightyeight | i prefer labels to uuids |
| 17:29.24 | eightyeight | cleans up the fstab(5) and is easier to read |
| 17:29.39 | eightyeight | and still follows the filesystem, rather than the drive |
| 17:30.11 | eightyeight | my labels are unique though. LABEL=root, LABEL=swap, LABEL=home, LABEL=var, etc |
| 17:30.42 | jxqz | LABEL=haxor |
| 17:33.51 | youtah | LABEL=nachos |
| 17:36.21 | programmerq | LABEL=kronk |
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| 17:42.04 | Q_Continuum | wants nachos |
| 17:42.07 | Q_Continuum | blames youtah |
| 17:51.07 | fadein | /dev/disk/by-label FTW |
| 17:55.15 | eightyeight | indeed |
| 18:11.04 | shalkie | Nachos? Oh man... |
| 18:13.29 | TodPunk | levi, some of what you were talking about was stuff they sort of implemented in the basis of powershell, which I find interesting as a concept and a tool. I assume you've already heard all that, though, yes? |
| 18:15.49 | TodPunk | Oddly relevant just mentioned by Stewart Butterfield: "Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply."- Steven Covey |
| 18:16.35 | rsimpkins | TodPunk: Humm. Isn't that what we call 'communication' ? |
| 18:17.01 | TodPunk | rsimpkins: depends on definitions, I suspect =c) |
| 18:17.23 | rsimpkins | The people who get paid to listen to understand are called therapists, and would like to be paid to listen. |
| 18:17.41 | rsimpkins | Because they probably wouldn't listen unless they were paid. Perhaps. |
| 18:18.26 | fungus | Eeek, please no more Covey quotes. |
| 18:19.00 | fungus | I get enough of it here at work. |
| 18:19.41 | fungus | Too much of that stuff will turn your mind into jelly |
| 18:19.50 | TodPunk | I don't actually know, as my social experience is usually quite different from the average, much to my chagrin. The data available does seem to lend itself to the idea that people are not talking or listening to exchange ideas. |
| 18:20.07 | TodPunk | fungus: you can just drop the attribution if you'd like |
| 18:20.14 | levi | TodPunk: Yeah; I think powershell has got some interesting concepts, but I think it'd look a little bit different in a Unix context. I think Unix lost its way a long time ago; it seems to have adhered to the wrong bits of the core philosophy! |
| 18:21.08 | levi | TodPunk: And yeah, that quote... so true. |
| 18:21.11 | TodPunk | levi: it would, which is why there haven't really been any successful adaptations of powershell specifically (there are some attempts that sort of work, I guess). |
| 18:21.11 | fungus | heh, attribution isn't enough. I work in the Franklin Covey office building, the walls are frequented by posters and plaques of 7 habits claptrap. |
| 18:21.59 | fungus | I was "encouraged" to attend the 7 habits training, which I did unfortunately. It was traumatic. |
| 18:22.03 | TodPunk | I think I'd like to see some designs of a shell like that from the ground-up in a POSIX style, but the toolchains would all have to be rewritten |
| 18:22.32 | TodPunk | or, of course, you'd just layers upon layers of translation, like everything else in linux |
| 18:23.18 | levi | TodPunk: Anything with a reasonable chance of adoption would have to make it really easy to "wrap" a classic tool and incorporate it into the system. |
| 18:24.02 | eightyeight | except, it's good enough, such that the "*nix philosophy" has triumphed almost everywhere in the operating system world |
| 18:24.07 | eightyeight | it's ben masively successful |
| 18:24.36 | eightyeight | no doubt it needs improvement in many areas, but it works, and works well |
| 18:24.36 | fungus | perhaps tools that support the new way would need to register themselves to the calling shell, so the shell knows how to pipe the data to it. |
| 18:24.42 | levi | eightyeight: Not going to argue the point right now, but I think people don't look critically enough at *why* unix was successful. |
| 18:24.50 | eightyeight | indeed |
| 18:25.04 | TodPunk | levi: or whate "successful" even means now |
| 18:25.06 | TodPunk | -e |
| 18:25.38 | eightyeight | android, ios, mac os x, servers, wireless routers, raid controllers, smart tvs, ... |
| 18:25.57 | TodPunk | android basically stops at the kernel |
| 18:26.08 | TodPunk | they have busybox, but it's used for almost nothing |
| 18:27.57 | TodPunk | levi: did you see seL4 got open-sourced today? |
| 18:28.15 | levi | I believe it was a combination of circumstance, good design choices, and... other stuff that came along for the ride. |
| 18:28.44 | levi | TodPunk: Yeah, I've been looking forward to that! |
| 18:30.06 | jxqz | TodPunk: how do I interpret '=c)'? |
| 18:30.18 | TodPunk | jxqz: it's a smiley face? |
| 18:30.26 | jxqz | ok |
| 18:30.31 | TodPunk | =c( Frown |
| 18:30.32 | eightyeight | TodPunk: interesteng (re: seL4) |
| 18:30.42 | jxqz | not a frown with a big chin |
| 18:30.55 | TodPunk | the c is a nose |
| 18:31.13 | levi | I think the lens concept that augeas embraces could be useful in "wrapping" classic tools. But I haven't thought deeply about it. |
| 18:31.30 | TodPunk | levi: seems ripe for edge-case hell |
| 18:31.32 | eightyeight | curious if hurd could adopt seL4 as a working kernel |
| 18:31.55 | eightyeight | seeing as though L4 was the original choice anyway |
| 18:32.38 | jxqz | I thought mach was the original choice |
| 18:32.49 | eightyeight | mach is current, i believe |
| 18:32.56 | jxqz | so they went back |
| 18:32.59 | eightyeight | tbh, i'm not sure |
| 18:33.05 | levi | TodPunk: ad-hoc text formats are ripe for edge-case hell anyway, no? |
| 18:33.14 | eightyeight | i knew they were also looking at coyotos |
| 18:33.17 | jxqz | even Stallman 'gave up' on hurd |
| 18:33.31 | eightyeight | seems like each hurd dev has their own ideas on what the kernel should be |
| 18:33.45 | jxqz | levi: bash is edge-case hell |
| 18:33.54 | TodPunk | levi: sadly, I know this all too well, yes |
| 18:35.42 | eightyeight | jxqz: reading wikipedia, you're right |
| 18:35.55 | eightyeight | "In 1987 Richard Stallman proposed using the Mach microkernel developed at Carnegie Mellon University. Work on this was delayed for three years due to uncertainty over whether CMU would release the Mach code under a suitable license." |
| 18:36.46 | levi | http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/history/port_to_another_microkernel.html |
| 18:37.04 | jxqz | why not just make it kernel agnostic? :-) |
| 18:37.24 | levi | As if it were that easy. :) |
| 18:37.58 | jxqz | just use a regex |
| 18:37.59 | TodPunk | Yay, server installed! Now to wrestle with yum |
| 18:38.17 | eightyeight | i do find it interesting that andrew tanenbaum can create a microkernel alone, and produce a stable system, while the hurd devs struggle |
| 18:38.31 | eightyeight | of course, minix probably doesn't meet the design goals of hurd |
| 18:38.34 | levi | seL4 also has a capability-based security model, so it is conceivably an attractive target for something like HURD. |
| 18:39.04 | levi | eightyeight: Yeah, I think the problem is probably related to over-specification. |
| 18:39.22 | eightyeight | yeah. that's what i was thinking |
| 18:39.42 | eightyeight | seems like dejavu for multics developers |
| 18:39.44 | eightyeight | heh |
| 18:40.14 | levi | QNX is also a stable microkernel OS. |
| 18:42.56 | levi | Alas, the device driver issue. |
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| 18:43.44 | eightyeight | at this point, even if they got a working kernel, playing driver-catchup would bog the project down, i would think |
| 18:43.50 | eightyeight | s/working/stable/ |
| 18:44.28 | jxqz | just only support open hardware platforms |
| 18:45.02 | jxqz | which makes me wonder, is it possible, it's 2014 after all, to construct a completely open hardware computer? |
| 18:45.10 | levi | That's a wonderful way to encourage adoption of your OS! :P |
| 18:45.12 | eightyeight | i've been following haiku for years (possibly a decade?), and it's drivers that have been slowing that project down |
| 18:45.17 | eightyeight | and funding |
| 18:45.21 | TodPunk | jxqz: for several definitions of computer, yes |
| 18:45.48 | levi | Probably depends on your definition of "fully open" as well. |
| 18:46.59 | eightyeight | including bios and onboard firmwares? |
| 18:47.39 | eightyeight | or even microcode, for that matter |
| 18:47.54 | levi | There are open CPU designs and open firmware. |
| 18:48.13 | TodPunk | let's put it this way: Stallman would still bitch about something |
| 18:48.19 | levi | The tricky bit is how you define "open" with regards to hardware. |
| 18:48.23 | eightyeight | TodPunk: yeah. that's my point |
| 18:48.55 | eightyeight | if you're not fine with having a full stallman-approved stack, then you better not own a watch, or microwave, or tv, or car, ... |
| 18:49.15 | levi | If you have to buy someone's ASIC, you can't change and re-fab it without HUGE cost. If you use an FPGA... I don't think there are any free full toolchains for those. |
| 18:49.31 | TodPunk | How does the man even eat? Or buy clothes? |
| 18:49.44 | levi | TodPunk: Donations, I expect. And frugality. |
| 18:49.47 | TodPunk | life's little mysteries |
| 18:50.04 | TodPunk | levi: I mean without being proprietary |
| 18:50.20 | eightyeight | while we're at it: https://rms.sexy/ |
| 18:51.19 | levi | TodPunk: I'm pretty sure there are some completely non-proprietary computers you can get, where you can get the designs (including gateware) that went into all of the pieces. |
| 18:51.55 | TodPunk | but is it GPL3 compliant? |
| 18:52.10 | TodPunk | </sarcasm> |
| 18:52.15 | levi | Heh. |
| 18:52.21 | eightyeight | i would imagine finding said hardware is exceptionally difficult from a general computing perspective |
| 18:56.18 | Sargun | I mean, there's free IP isn't there? |
| 18:57.06 | jxqz | Sargun: ur actually here? |
| 18:57.07 | Sargun | (Free VHDL / Verilog) |
| 18:57.12 | Sargun | jxqz: tots. |
| 18:57.26 | jxqz | darn, that should have been a ~napoleon |
| 18:57.33 | jxqz | 'give me some of your tots' |
| 18:57.48 | jxqz | ~napoleon Sargun |
| 18:57.48 | infobot | ACTION makes Sargun his secret service captain |
| 18:57.50 | goozbach | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgaPEXGnChM&feature=youtu.be my SELF2013 talk |
| 18:59.44 | Sargun | levi would probably know the answer to this question - Is there an open source core that can run the Linux kernel? |
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| 19:10.30 | eightyeight | Sargun: what do you meat "open source core"? |
| 19:11.03 | eightyeight | do you mean an open source bios? |
| 19:11.22 | eightyeight | such as openbios or coreboot? |
| 19:24.43 | TodPunk | eightyeight: I think he might mean a CPU core? |
| 19:25.07 | eightyeight | yeah. wasn't sure. i also thought of 'opencore' licenses |
| 19:25.12 | eightyeight | so, i figured i'd ask for clarification |
| 19:25.24 | TodPunk | good idea |
| 19:26.06 | jxqz | waits for Sargun's reply with eightyeight and TodPunk |
| 19:32.10 | Sargun | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCores |
| 19:32.34 | Sargun | Maybe, I mean: http://theportalwiki.com/wiki/Cores |
| 19:33.15 | Sargun | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_intellectual_property_core -- this is what I mean |
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| 19:45.13 | youtah | is ready for a nap |
| 19:47.51 | shalkie | finds a spot on the floor and lowers the lights... |
| 19:48.17 | shalkie | I remember those days with gymn matts... |
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| 19:56.05 | jxqz | so low that they're right over your face? |
| 20:10.31 | unum | I think the realy question is, does an open source core exist |
| 20:10.49 | unum | if does, of course it run linux |
| 20:14.42 | unum | looks like there's openrisc, opensparc, and leon processors |
| 20:19.25 | youtah | I <3 nachos |
| 20:20.36 | youtah | ~nachos |
| 20:20.36 | infobot | schweet. |
| 20:21.36 | jxqz | ~nacho |
| 20:21.36 | infobot | NACHOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooo....! |
| 21:02.03 | tvc123 | mmm nacho libre |
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| 21:17.48 | levi | Wow, the seL4 verification approach is pretty interesting. |
| 21:26.29 | levi | It involves Haskell, Isabelle/HOL (written in Standard ML), C, and a SMT solver. And a bit of Python, apparently. |
| 21:30.42 | youtah | harleypig ..... http://imgur.com/gallery/km7N0 I can't stop laughing, especially at the first/top comment. |
| 22:04.45 | harleypig | youtah: oh, that's funny |
| 22:05.08 | harleypig | And now it's on my fb feed. :> |
| 22:07.24 | youtah | Perfect! |
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| 22:43.57 | jlp_znc | ~worf |
| 22:43.57 | infobot | You cannot tarnish a rusted blade. |
| 22:47.42 | jessie | Oh man, you did Worf! |
| 22:47.44 | jessie | ~worf |
| 22:47.45 | infobot | Go to her door. Beg like a human. |
| 22:47.55 | jessie | ~worf |
| 22:47.55 | infobot | Less talk - more synthehol! |
| 22:48.07 | jessie | <3 |
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| 23:44.51 | goozbach | are there any coworking spaces in Utah? |
| 23:44.57 | goozbach | asking for a friend |
| 23:54.59 | davido_ | There are near downtown salt lake. |
| 23:55.32 | goozbach | I've heard of the transistor hackerspace but the site isn't coming up |
| 23:55.49 | davido_ | Impact Hub (hubsaltlake.com) and Work Hive (workhiveslc.com) are two I know of. |
| 23:56.06 | davido_ | The transistor doesn't currently have a hackerspace. |
| 23:56.20 | davido_ | but that's a different thing anyway. |
| 23:56.51 | davido_ | Coworking spaces are more office oriented. |
| 23:56.55 | goozbach | true |