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| 04:52.04 | saturdayplace1 | anyone play with cakephp? |
| 05:17.48 | saturdayplace1 | baugh. it was an selinux context. It's always selinux. |
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| 06:59.06 | davido_ | jlp_znc: Here's the site http://www.modern.ie/en-us/virtualization-tools#downloads |
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| 15:22.03 | eightyeight | http://www.ebayinc.com/in_the_news/story/ebay-inc-ask-ebay-users-change-passwords |
| 15:22.10 | eightyeight | http://www.ebayinc.com/in_the_news/story/faq-ebay-password-change |
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| 15:43.51 | shalkie | So that is exciting... |
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| 16:21.07 | sodaplayer | So the passwords were encrypted rather than hashed? |
| 16:31.02 | eightyeight | unknown |
| 16:31.13 | eightyeight | i'm guessing they could be using the term 'encrypted' when they mean 'hashed' |
| 16:33.23 | manithree | but if they were hashed, why would I need to change my password? |
| 16:33.38 | manithree | maybe they were really poorly hashed |
| 16:35.07 | unum | partial rainbow tables |
| 16:36.32 | unum | https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/06/a_really_good_a.html |
| 16:36.37 | jlp_znc | thanks, davido_ |
| 16:38.53 | davido_ | I think the media just applies the word "encrypted" as a catch-all for both what we would consider encrypted and what we would consider hashed. |
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| 16:39.49 | davido_ | "a cyberattack that compromised a database containing encrypted passwords and other non-financial data." ....and therein is the problem; when will people start considering passwords to be one component of financial data? |
| 16:42.19 | davido_ | lol: "included ...name, encrypted password, email address, physical address, phone number, and date of birth. However ...did not contain financial information or other personal information." ....um, so because it didn't include my blood type or ATM PIN I should rest assured? ;) haha |
| 16:52.44 | Jayce | well, financial info has the biggest liability |
| 16:53.05 | Jayce | that's what'd get penalties assessed |
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| 16:55.32 | jxqz | the problem is that financial info is defined by law |
| 16:55.43 | jxqz | probably a junky law at that |
| 16:56.10 | Jayce | well, PCI compliance isn't law, you'll just lose processing ability :) |
| 16:56.11 | jxqz | and they could be lying, their passwords aren't 'encrypted' |
| 16:56.23 | Jayce | but that's part of why it's separate in this case |
| 16:56.39 | jlp_znc | well, the great unwashed masses don't know what "hashed" means, so they use "encrypted" instead |
| 16:57.00 | jxqz | but this is ebay we're talking about |
| 16:57.05 | eightyeight | manithree: how confident are you in your password that a cracker can't retrieve it? |
| 16:57.10 | jxqz | a windows shop |
| 16:57.16 | jxqz | how competent can they be? |
| 16:57.28 | davido_ | That was (one of) my point earlier: The news article will say "encrypted" because that's a catch-all word used by non-tech people, when we would prefer to hear the word "hashed". |
| 16:57.37 | eightyeight | http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/05/how-crackers-make-minced-meat-out-of-your-passwords/ is a good read, if you haven't read it before |
| 16:58.00 | eightyeight | crackers keep fairly strong dictionary lists of very complex password strings |
| 16:58.01 | jxqz | whatever, encrypted, hashed |
| 16:58.13 | jxqz | eightyeight: cracklib-full? :) |
| 16:58.15 | jxqz | .rpm |
| 16:58.16 | goozbach | yall should back this: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/productsforrobots/metacell-genesis-the-card-game |
| 16:58.20 | eightyeight | unless your password contains sufficient entropy and was truly randomly generated, i would change it |
| 16:58.20 | goozbach | 31hrs left |
| 16:58.32 | goozbach | good friend of mine |
| 16:58.41 | goozbach | great game |
| 16:58.48 | jxqz | the last time I checked, ebay only let me create a 16 char alphanum PW |
| 16:58.50 | goozbach | I've got the board game and the video game |
| 16:58.52 | goozbach | lots of fun |
| 16:59.15 | jxqz | and the same for username |
| 16:59.17 | jlp_znc | jxqz: I have non-alphanumeric characters in my ebay password |
| 16:59.23 | eightyeight | as do i |
| 16:59.45 | jxqz | so I am probably wrong about that part, but I do remember the length being ridiculously short |
| 16:59.46 | eightyeight | they do limit it to 20 characters, but all 94 printable characters are valid |
| 16:59.51 | jlp_znc | and I don't use the same password anywhere else, but I'll be changing it anyway. |
| 17:01.10 | eightyeight | if you take advantage of all 94 characters, and the 20 character limit, you can have a max of 131 bits of entropy in your password |
| 17:01.15 | davido_ | Have businesses who are victims of password thefts ever been successfully held liable in litigation, when there was no financial loss for consumers? |
| 17:01.35 | eightyeight | 80-bits is probably enough to thwart a distributed sophisticated attack |
| 17:01.42 | jlp_znc | davido_: not as far as I know |
| 17:02.08 | jlp_znc | doesn't mean they haven't been sued, though. big companies tend to settle to avoid setting legal precedence |
| 17:02.37 | jlp_znc | it's a lot easier for them to write a check for a few (tens of) thousands of dollars |
| 17:03.02 | davido_ | I'm just wondering what it would take to finally scare the daylights out of companies to the point that they take the problem a little more seriously. |
| 17:03.12 | eightyeight | you can't fix stupid though |
| 17:03.21 | eightyeight | and it's not always the company as a whole |
| 17:03.26 | eightyeight | but individual employees |
| 17:03.29 | jlp_znc | I would expect that, given that most people didn't actually lose any money from it, the settlement wouldn't be very high, either |
| 17:03.43 | davido_ | yes, the most recent adobe snafu was literally just a dumb few keystrokes. |
| 17:03.54 | eightyeight | all it takes is a simple phish, and an employee to not recognize it |
| 17:03.57 | eightyeight | hardly the fault of the company |
| 17:03.59 | davido_ | (where people were locked out of their creative cloud for a day) |
| 17:04.33 | eightyeight | social engineering is the most effective way at getting to private data |
| 17:05.42 | davido_ | There must be a solution to that too. If I'm able to call up some financial site and trick the person on the line into giving me more info than he should, that person shouldn't have access to the info in the first place. |
| 17:05.47 | eightyeight | as long as we use single-factor authentication for online accounts, databases will continue to get leaked |
| 17:06.07 | jlp_znc | yep |
| 17:06.23 | jlp_znc | but how many key fobs do you want to carry around? |
| 17:06.25 | davido_ | and i don't mean that person as an individual, I mean that person's job title shouldn't grant him access to said info. |
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| 17:06.50 | eightyeight | davido_: maybe he doesn't. maybe they only have access to limited data. but they can use escalation techniques until they are at the data they need |
| 17:07.23 | eightyeight | also, saying someone shouldn't have access to data, because they were successfully engieered, isn't exactly fair |
| 17:07.38 | jxqz | eightyeight: is that like social media? |
| 17:07.43 | jxqz | social cyber? |
| 17:07.47 | jxqz | cybersocial |
| 17:07.47 | eightyeight | social engineering can come from all angles |
| 17:07.54 | eightyeight | including from within |
| 17:07.59 | jxqz | cyberengenieering |
| 17:08.03 | davido_ | That's true, and I'm obviously thinking out loud :) |
| 17:08.05 | jxqz | cyberengenieeringsocial |
| 17:08.22 | davido_ | By the way, who carries fobs? I use Google Authenticator and VIPAccess. |
| 17:08.36 | eightyeight | i'd be more worried about disgruntled employees, than cyber criminals from china |
| 17:08.48 | RyanE | 2-factor auth with fobs is *so* '90's. |
| 17:08.57 | eightyeight | i use FreeOTP rather than Google Authenticator |
| 17:09.00 | davido_ | That does raise a question for me though; if I ever upgrade my phone should I be disabling 2-factor temporarily and reinstate it once I'm done upgrading? |
| 17:09.10 | eightyeight | 1) it's Free Software, and 2) more secure from over-the-shoulder surfers |
| 17:09.37 | eightyeight | davido_: are you passwords also on your phone? |
| 17:09.58 | davido_ | No. |
| 17:10.24 | eightyeight | then no need to worry. you need both to authenticate. that's the point. |
| 17:11.19 | davido_ | Yes, but what I mean is when I go to disable phone A, and start using phone B, is the transistion smooth? VIPAccess, for example, has a Credential ID that is unique to this install of the app, I think. |
| 17:12.05 | davido_ | Not sure how that transition from using the app on one device to using it on a new device works. I guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. |
| 17:12.28 | davido_ | Anyway, got to run.... |
| 17:12.43 | eightyeight | if you disable phone A, unistall the app, and wipe the phone |
| 17:12.54 | eightyeight | so the shared secret key is not available |
| 17:13.10 | eightyeight | for phone B, just rescan the QR code generated from the shared secret key you used on phone A |
| 17:13.19 | eightyeight | or, re-establed a new shared secret |
| 17:13.21 | davido_ | Ic. |
| 17:13.28 | eightyeight | s/re-establed/re-establish/ |
| 17:15.01 | jlp_znc | davido_: for vipaccess, you will need to register the new credential with whomever you are using vipaccess to authenticate to |
| 17:15.21 | jlp_znc | you will also need to do this if you ever need to, e.g., factory reset your phone |
| 17:15.43 | jlp_znc | (which is why I like fobs) |
| 17:16.18 | jlp_znc | with googleauthenticator, it's possible to save the shared secret and reapply it to a new instance of the authenticator, but vipaccess specifically does not allow that. |
| 17:19.16 | eightyeight | i don't care for fobs, because the algorithm generating the code is not always open |
| 17:19.28 | eightyeight | and they're subject to compromise, as is the case with rsa securid |
| 17:19.52 | eightyeight | TOTP and HOTP is superior, imo, as a result |
| 17:20.28 | eightyeight | IE: if the shared secret is compromised, just generate a new shared secret. so long as that is kept private, who cares if the algorithm is known for generating the 6-digit code? |
| 17:21.30 | eightyeight | also doesn't require communication to a 3rd-party server |
| 17:22.15 | jlp_znc | I like fobs because I'm less likely to discover that the battery on my fob is dead right at the moment I critically need to access the VPN for work |
| 17:22.43 | jlp_znc | (note: I don't currently carry any fobs... but I still like them) |
| 17:29.57 | sodaplayer | eightyeight: What were those fobs you were handing out at the keysigning party? |
| 17:31.36 | eightyeight | they were yubikeys |
| 17:31.43 | eightyeight | they're similar, but different |
| 17:32.10 | eightyeight | they support the standard 2-factor fob communicating to a 3rd-party server style, just using AES keys |
| 17:32.51 | eightyeight | they also support challenge/response, static strings, and some other features |
| 17:33.05 | eightyeight | one big drawback, however, is for those who do not type in the qwerty keyboard layout |
| 17:33.15 | eightyeight | as the yubikey presents itself as a keyboard to the system |
| 17:33.37 | eightyeight | so, it doesn't work correctly with OTP using AES, as the server it's communicating to, is expecting the string to be in a specific format |
| 17:33.46 | eightyeight | which gets mangled, with things like dvorak |
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| 17:45.32 | jlp_znc | that would be a problem not just for dvorak users, but people with azerty or qwertz layouts (french or german), as well |
| 17:45.55 | davido_ | (back) Interesting. So with VIPAccess I would need to use the old device to log in, then once logged in, switch over to the new device. |
| 17:46.11 | davido_ | IIW, both devices would need to be available to make the switch. |
| 17:46.42 | jlp_znc | or have some means of registering the new credentials without having to use them to log in (i.e., for vpn access, set the new device up while on the company network where you don't need the vpn) |
| 17:47.00 | davido_ | I'm thinking in the case of an online brokerage. |
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| 17:47.05 | jlp_znc | ahh, yeah |
| 17:47.42 | jlp_znc | can you call them and say "my vip access device was wiped and I need to register new credentials... how do I do it?" :-) |
| 17:48.12 | davido_ | lol. Yes, I could do that, and probably would before I upgrade my phone in a year or so. |
| 17:48.37 | davido_ | but they shouldn't oblige, actually. |
| 17:48.53 | jlp_znc | presumably, they have some criteria for validating who you are when you call them |
| 17:49.02 | eightyeight | jlp_znc: they took those alternative layouts into account |
| 17:49.29 | davido_ | I'll probably just order a dedicated fob from them before upgrading phones so that I can use it during the transition. |
| 17:49.37 | jlp_znc | some combination of social security number, mother's maiden name, and/or some other magic keyword that only you should know |
| 17:50.23 | davido_ | Yeah, I remember when I first set up 2-factor with this firm I actually had to get on the phone because at one point during the setup I found myself locked out. |
| 17:50.24 | jlp_znc | I know that when I call, e.g., my schwab bank, they ask for things like "what is the approximate balance of your account" |
| 17:51.05 | eightyeight | for 'security questions', i use the result of hmac-sha1() |
| 17:51.07 | jlp_znc | eightyeight: if they took those keyboard layouts into account, then why doesn't dvorak work? |
| 17:51.24 | davido_ | The straw in the camel's back for me in setting up 2-factor with them was when I discovered their passwords weren't case sensitive. I thought, well, if that's how things are done, I don't know what other bad choices were made. |
| 17:51.34 | eightyeight | jlp_znc: because there are only some minor changes between azerty and qwertz from qwerty |
| 17:51.44 | eightyeight | the only similarities between dvorak and qwerty and 'a' and 'm' |
| 17:52.25 | davido_ | have you seen those Master Locks where instead of a dial, there's a up/down/left/right toggle? |
| 17:52.27 | eightyeight | IE: what is your mothers maiden name? answer- hmac-sha1($SALT, $NAME) |
| 17:55.11 | fadein | davido_: I have one of those locks |
| 17:55.29 | davido_ | I do too, on the hottub so the little ones can't get into it when I'm not looking. |
| 17:55.52 | davido_ | lol, watching a 6min youtube video on how to non-destructively crack them. |
| 17:56.45 | fadein | davido_: link pls |
| 17:56.59 | davido_ | http://youtu.be/1VCi66dLLqs |
| 17:57.14 | fadein | that video would have been nice last year when I messed up while setting the combo on one - I had to throw it away |
| 18:00.25 | davido_ | hmm, I guess it can be reassembled, but if I were the one doing it, calling it non-destructive would be a stretch. |
| 18:00.35 | fadein | yeah |
| 18:01.03 | fadein | and when I took mine apart to see how it worked, I made a mess out of that inner white plastic piece with all of the wheels and springs |
| 18:01.30 | jlp_znc | davido_: I had a health insurance at one point (several years back) where the prescription provided had a "UNIQUE |
| 18:01.33 | jlp_znc | arg |
| 18:01.49 | jlp_znc | "UNIQUE" constraint on the password field in their database. |
| 18:01.56 | davido_ | lol |
| 18:01.59 | davido_ | unbelievable. |
| 18:02.07 | jlp_znc | I found this out because I tried to register two accounts, one for me and one for my wife, with the same password |
| 18:02.21 | jlp_znc | the site actually told me that the password could not be reused |
| 18:02.37 | davido_ | So all you have to do is register abc123 and see if it collides, then figure out who it collides with. |
| 18:02.58 | jlp_znc | well, finding the user it collides with would be non-trivial, but still. |
| 18:03.23 | jlp_znc | "oh, you're using 'aowiejfal;mcaoiwef' as your password? but someone else has that *exact* same password, so you can't use it." |
| 18:03.53 | jlp_znc | not only that, but you probably couldn't use it within five password change cycles, either. :-) |
| 18:05.44 | davido_ | Oh, I discovered a fun one on YM once.... let me think if I can remember...... |
| 18:05.51 | jlp_znc | ahh, they probably wouldn't have allowed ";" in the password, anyway. |
| 18:11.42 | eightyeight | davido_: those thumbnails. ugh. |
| 18:11.53 | eightyeight | fingernail clippers. buy them. |
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| 18:17.43 | davido_ | The Yahoo thing... I can't quite remember the issue. I think I was changing a user name, and it couldn't contain any of the letters that previously were used in the user name. not userid, but User Name. |
| 18:23.07 | davido_ | So if the user name was initials, J.D., one couldn't change to John Doe because that contains a J and a D. |
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| 18:32.15 | jlp_znc | so so stupid |
| 18:33.40 | jlp_znc | at raytheon, we had to implement STIG password restrictions... basically, you had to have at least two upper-case, two lower-case, two digit, and two non-alphanumeric characters in your 14+ character passphrase. it couldn't contain any repeated characters, nor any sequences of characters that equated to any dictionary word (have you looked at the number of two-letter words in /usr/share/dict/words?) |
| 18:34.55 | jlp_znc | nor could you have any string that matched the user's username, components of their full name (i.e. first/last), or anything that looked like a phone number or social security number |
| 18:35.13 | jessie | Good hell, that’s retarded. |
| 18:35.15 | jlp_znc | or anything that matched anything in any user's GCOS field in the password file |
| 18:36.03 | jessie | Even randomly generated 20+ char passwords would probably have 2 chars that matched the dictionary. |
| 18:36.21 | jlp_znc | yeah, we got a special dispensation to remove 2-letter words from the dictionary |
| 18:36.24 | jessie | And if it’s really long enough the word thing is moot. |
| 18:36.28 | jessie | Thank goodness. |
| 18:37.29 | jlp_znc | let me see if I can find the reference... |
| 18:41.34 | jlp_znc | hmmm, looks like V1R3 has relaxed the requirements a little |
| 18:43.52 | jlp_znc | whoop, time for lunch |
| 18:44.01 | jlp_znc | have to look for it afterwards |
| 19:11.48 | joshh_ | and the chinese still stole every secret from there |
| 19:12.03 | joshh_ | just not with passwords |
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| 19:32.33 | jlp_znc | okay, here are the current STIG password requirements: password minimum length is 14 characters, passwords must contain at least one uppercase, one lowercase, one numeric, and one special (non-alphanumeric) characters. passwords can not contain more than three consecutive repeating characters, at least four characters must be changed between old and new passwords, no dictionary words can be used in a password (it doesn't define what dictionary y |
| 19:33.10 | jlp_znc | oh yeah, and password hashes must have been generated using a FIPS 140-2 validated cryptographic module running in FIPS mode |
| 19:33.44 | jlp_znc | these requirements are a *lot* less strict than what we had to deal with. |
| 19:34.35 | jlp_znc | and, the system must, if capable, be configured to use CAC, PIV, or ALT hardware tokens for authentication |
| 19:35.29 | jlp_znc | I remember we had some test CAC cards for development and QA. I never had one issued to me, though. |
| 19:36.29 | jlp_znc | interesting... STIGs are now delivered in XML format and there is a java "stig viewer" application to read them. presumably, there is (somewhere) an .xslt that defines the .xml format, as well. |
| 19:53.25 | Jayce | wok-fried peanut butter... mmmmm |
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| 20:11.21 | jxqz | is there an .xslslt that defines the .xslt? |
| 20:22.38 | davido_ | Any objections to shifting Salt Lake Perl Mongers from June 10 to June 17th? I'll be back in town by then, and if a presenter doesn't volunteer, I can demonstrate some of the fun one can have with the MCE modules. |
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| 22:21.07 | harleypig | dangit ... anyone familiar with createrepo hanging about? |
| 22:24.26 | eightyeight | outside of it Just Working, i haven't done much with it |