| 00:00.05 | klys | region mapping thread process mutex semaphore ... |
| 00:00.35 | levi | Why are you introducing extra implementation details that are entirely irrelevant to the meaning of a program? |
| 00:01.46 | klys | if the microkernel has an accurate representation of what the operation will do to accomplish this, then, it will be expressible in the machine code. |
| 00:02.15 | levi | Why are you talking about microkernels? You can run programs without microkernels. |
| 00:03.12 | klys | yes, without or with, just you have not demonstrated that I can run a program which I could in theory compile otherwise, while such an idea is also impossible on the microkernel. |
| 00:03.32 | klys | ... while such an idea is also possible on the microkernel. |
| 00:04.05 | klys | no, it is possible on the microkernel if I can run it...is all I mean. |
| 00:05.18 | levi | There is absolutely no reason to refer to microkernels at this point in the conversation. They are entirely irrelevant. Specific machine architecture is entirely irrelevant. You can run programs in your brain, or on a piece of paper. |
| 00:06.02 | klys | I would say that you were referring to stacks at some point in the conversation |
| 00:09.45 | klys | so I use the data segment instead of extra registers I can't seem to come up with...I have a couple of options: my name table gets a lot bigger, or I'm using a data structure (there's really no reson for the extra pointers besides malloc() and free()) such as an array (which I tend to refer to as a stack.) |
| 00:09.57 | levi | Only because I was trying to convince you that they are unnecessary. |
| 00:10.12 | klys | yeah |
| 00:11.08 | levi | You seem to be completely missing my point again, though. If we don't need to talk about stacks or registers, we also don't need to talk about data segments or malloc or free. |
| 00:11.44 | klys | I am also implying the name table, which will exist in an ELF executable. |
| 00:12.05 | levi | You should not be implying name tables or ELF executables. They are not required either. |
| 00:13.35 | klys | when you got to where I say the proof is in the pudding, you did imply a design goal to "run a program." |
| 00:14.17 | klys | bbl. supper |
| 00:14.37 | levi | I said you can "run a program" in your head or on a piece of paper. |
| 00:16.46 | levi | And I have no idea where you got the idea that I implied a "design goal" of any sort. I'm trying to talk about programming languages and their meanings as an abstract concept and *you* are the one that keeps trying to talk about irrelevant implementation details. |
| 00:23.37 | klys | there do exist institutions whic I have not in my own research outconceptualize. Though, I have conceptualized to the point where it is not truly my goal to outconceptualize anyone else. |
| 00:24.01 | klys | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:29.36 | klys | "programming languages use the machine." you would say no. "I intend for my program to run." you would say at the end of the page you have reduced or solved an expression. "I intend to write a program." This is engineering and has the following constraints: |
| 00:30.03 | klys | applications, data, netowrks, system(s), documentation, configuration, source(s). |
| 00:31.36 | levi | What good is it to run an incorrect program? You have to be able to think about programs, and what they mean. |
| 00:32.13 | klys | whereas a system which may run a program (including your brain) supports applications, data, and networks, and to a point is defined in sources, it does not provide / support documentation nor configuration. |
| 00:33.28 | klys | therefore if my sources may either become applications or related functions such as networks, or become systems with supporting documentation, programming languages are intended to produce the former rather than the latter. |
| 00:33.37 | levi | So, on the one hand, we have an interpretation of a programming language entirely bereft of implementation details that gives us a relatively nicer way to *think* about programs. And on the other, we have the real world of optimizing compilers, superscalar CPUs, and distributed memory, where your simplistic implementation mechanisms don't even describe how things really work. |
| 00:34.34 | klys | the implementation standard I held you to was a uk22 microkernel (very simple implementation details.) you then said what I should do with it is "run programs." |
| 00:35.12 | levi | I said that programs can be run without microkernels, yes. So? |
| 00:35.27 | klys | so it is your design. |
| 00:35.41 | levi | You are grossly misinterpreting me, then. |
| 00:36.30 | klys | then what if I need no application, only systems exist: then you don't need the piece of paper. |
| 00:36.55 | levi | I have no idea what you're trying to argue at this point. |
| 00:37.18 | klys | I rarely if ever have a point. |
| 00:38.17 | levi | That explains why you are making so little sense. |
| 00:42.35 | levi | Ultimately, my point is this: If there was not a higher level meaning to functions/procedures besides a direct translation to a stack-based implementation, then there would be no justification for the lua expression I mentioned before to be translated to the efficient 10-instruction loop. Since this compiler technology is behind pretty much all of our modern computing infrastructure, I don't think you have any room to doubt its |
| 00:42.35 | levi | importance. |
| 00:43.28 | levi | Stack-based implementations are rampant, but they do not represent the *meaning* of programs. They are, at best, a common intermediate representation that happens to have reasonable performance characteristics on today's machines. |
| 00:46.53 | levi | Understanding the stack-based representation of programs can be helpful in some cases to reason about how programs written for compilers that make use of it will execute on a machine, especially if you have to debug them via examination of disassembled core dumps, but it can also lead you astray when writing programs if you do not also keep in mind the more direct meaning of your program. |
| 00:48.34 | levi | There's absolutely no guarantee that any given function call written in your C program will be implemented as a JSR or CALL or whatever it is on your architecture. |
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| 00:51.33 | levi | Anyway, heading home now. |
| 00:52.06 | klys | tah-tah. |
| 00:57.23 | ldav15 | <PROTECTED> |
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| 01:57.03 | klys | ~slashdot |
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| 01:59.23 | klys | ~google "fusion project" |
| 01:59.28 | klys | :) |
| 02:00.20 | klys | ~quote ORCL |
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| 16:58.13 | Migs | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_2zr5EYbDk |
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| 17:01.52 | jxqz | ~nacho |
| 17:01.52 | infobot | Tonight I wrestle the seven strongest men in town, maybe the world. |
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| 17:05.58 | circ-user-u1UGt | Yo Youtah. |
| 17:06.41 | youtah | Howdy Codazoda |
| 17:06.45 | youtah | You made it! |
| 17:06.50 | youtah | ~throw nachos |
| 17:06.50 | infobot | ACTION winds up and throws nachos over the moon. |
| 17:07.11 | youtah | catches the nachos as they fall to the Earth, and then eats them. |
| 17:07.19 | Codazoda | Thought I'd try a new IRC client for Chrome. |
| 17:07.50 | youtah | I have been using XChat for well over 2 years now, really like it |
| 17:08.13 | youtah | http://imgur.com/gallery/aQTDtvY |
| 17:08.23 | Codazoda | Ah, well. I'm a Mac fanboy these days. |
| 17:08.58 | youtah | http://vinned.com/national-geographic-627 |
| 17:09.02 | youtah | thats the video |
| 17:09.11 | youtah | I wonder..... no port for Mac? |
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| 17:09.34 | jsmith | youtah: If you like XChat, HexChat is even better :-p |
| 17:09.42 | jsmith | youtah: (It's a fork) |
| 17:09.48 | Codazoda | Looks like no official one. A couple old but inactive ports. |
| 17:10.11 | youtah | jsmith, I've never heard of HexChat before |
| 17:10.25 | Codazoda | HexChat at least has an experimental build. |
| 17:10.39 | youtah | I dunno jsmith .... this looks *too* nice |
| 17:11.12 | youtah | LOL! It has a Windows 8 screenshot. Like anyone who's serious about computing would ever use Windows 8 |
| 17:11.17 | youtah | jumps behind the couch and hides |
| 17:11.19 | jsmith | youtah: Well, you know me -- only the best will do :-p |
| 17:11.31 | Codazoda | youtah, xchat is looking old school. |
| 17:11.33 | jsmith | youtah: Hence the reason I chat with folks like you :-p |
| 17:11.41 | jsmith | runs in on Fedora, of course |
| 17:11.44 | Codazoda | I guess IRC is "old school" these days though. |
| 17:12.04 | Jayce | weechat :) |
| 17:12.06 | youtah | :-) |
| 17:12.19 | youtah | Ah, HexChat has a stable PPA for Ubuntu |
| 17:12.30 | youtah | ppa:gwendal-lebihan-dev/hexchat-stable |
| 17:12.32 | Codazoda | I really should be getting some work done. I've got a huge new launch next week. :P |
| 17:12.37 | distortedvoice | IRC is for rookies. |
| 17:12.53 | Jayce | mhe, just telnet to 6667 |
| 17:12.54 | youtah | Alright, Well, stay in here Codazoda, don't leave, just remain idle |
| 17:13.03 | Jayce | adn still manage it with ssl |
| 17:14.00 | jsmith | Jayce: No wonder you don't get any work done these days :-p |
| 17:14.02 | jsmith | ducks and hides |
| 17:14.06 | Codazoda | I'll try to stick around. |
| 17:14.33 | Jayce | speaking of which, that tensai guy is supposed to be here today... |
| 17:15.15 | youtah | Doh! So I bought a 13.8V 19A Power Supply (work bench) from Radio Shack and decided that since I am planning on installing this radio in the car, perhaps it was a dumb idea and had my wife return it. Well, apparently since I paid cash, they can only refund via cash. And they didn't have enough cash to refund it, so she has to go back later tonight. |
| 17:16.02 | codazoda | How much does that thing cost? |
| 17:16.09 | youtah | $74 with tax. |
| 17:16.22 | youtah | (including tax) |
| 17:16.49 | distortedvoice | I hate going in radioshack. It's worse than a mortuary. |
| 17:16.52 | codazoda | Well... That doesn't seem like a ton of cash to have on hand in a store like that. |
| 17:17.20 | youtah | Yeah.... kind of dumb |
| 17:18.04 | codazoda | When I went to buy a house, I had a bit of trouble because they had done something like 50 credit inquiries on me in the past month. Turns out the did one ever time I bought something and I worked in a mall across the hall from them, so I bought crap. |
| 17:18.52 | codazoda | Sorry, not 50 min a month, but a whole bunch over a few months. |
| 17:19.49 | youtah | yeah, I was working with a financial credit score guru to get my score up to 740+ before we bought my home. Took a good 6 months |
| 17:20.07 | codazoda | Did you use trickery? |
| 17:20.22 | youtah | and magic |
| 17:21.06 | youtah | Took this last night, about ~45 minutes after sundown https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t31/1961904_10151917786735060_788988684_o.jpg |
| 17:21.22 | codazoda | I know of a company who sends letters to the agencies, over and over again, in an attempt to flood them with so much work that they are unable to respond to some of them. This results in automatic overturning of bad credit stuff. It comes back shortly after, but clears you up for a few weeks while you make a big purchase. |
| 17:21.35 | codazoda | Where were you? |
| 17:21.54 | youtah | That was up American Fork Canyon at Tibble Fork |
| 17:22.08 | youtah | Also took this one last night too https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t31/1911937_10151918689850060_224822502_o.jpg |
| 17:22.14 | codazoda | As a Northerner, I've never been. |
| 17:22.26 | codazoda | Looks like a cool place. |
| 17:22.51 | codazoda | Okay, off to work. Idle I go. |
| 17:23.06 | jsmith | youtah: This is my photo from yesterday: http://imgur.com/aOL7l8D |
| 17:23.12 | jsmith | youtah: Of course, that's with no editing, etc. |
| 17:24.06 | youtah | SNOW! No fair... why is the East Coast getting all the winter fun? |
| 17:24.20 | jsmith | youtah: Because we're living right :-p |
| 17:24.27 | youtah | lol |
| 17:25.51 | Jayce | jsmith: as close as you are to DC, nobody will believe you |
| 17:26.19 | jsmith | Jayce: Close enough to be convenient, far enough away to avoid the stench |
| 17:27.03 | youtah | ROFL! |
| 17:27.30 | youtah | $something rolls down hill, right Jayce? |
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| 17:30.02 | jsmith | youtah: Luckily, I'm uphill from DC :-) |
| 17:30.57 | youtah | lol, but... your.... |
| 17:31.08 | youtah | wait... where are you again? |
| 17:33.05 | *** join/#utah smcquay (~smcquay@17.114.180.235) |
| 17:34.18 | youtah | correlates "Down hill" with "South" for some reason. Even though the Nile river & the Jordan river both run South to North. |
| 17:36.10 | jxqz | if debian stable has updates available, you install them, right? |
| 17:36.19 | jsmith | youtah: I'm south of DC, but higher in elevation (by a couple hundred feet) |
| 17:36.36 | jxqz | ooh, some feet higher, impressive |
| 17:37.07 | jxqz | ~napoleon jsmith |
| 17:37.08 | infobot | ACTION makes jsmith buy a lotto ticket for Napoleon |
| 17:37.17 | jsmith | Gosh! |
| 17:38.48 | youtah | http://i.imgur.com/WFNEToS.gif |
| 17:42.02 | jxqz | http://j.jrawr.co/myimag.hig |
| 17:46.11 | keldwud | hmmm.. |
| 17:46.23 | keldwud | I removed an extraneous group |
| 17:46.39 | keldwud | and now I have a bunch of files that are owned or part of the the GID of the group I deleted |
| 17:46.45 | keldwud | what did I do wrong? |
| 17:47.10 | keldwud | is there a way to change everything that once was owned by x or belonged to x to the correct group? |
| 17:47.25 | keldwud | did I effectively break the machine? |
| 17:50.05 | keldwud | http://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/how-do-i-find-all-the-files-owned-by-a-particular-user-or-group/ |
| 17:50.48 | keldwud | I guess maybe I could use that to create a list from which I could iterate through to chown all the files |
| 17:51.03 | keldwud | is that the best way? or is there a tool available to already do something like this? |
| 17:51.07 | goozbach | find |
| 17:51.10 | goozbach | is the only way |
| 17:51.27 | goozbach | the only files which are auto-removed are when you do userdel -r |
| 17:51.38 | goozbach | and those are homedir, mailspool |
| 17:51.47 | goozbach | and maybe one or two others |
| 17:51.50 | goozbach | crontab |
| 17:52.36 | keldwud | yeah I did userdel |
| 17:52.37 | keldwud | -r |
| 17:52.58 | keldwud | okay, cool. the output from the find is just the filenames |
| 17:53.10 | keldwud | so I can make a list and then just for my way through it |
| 17:53.44 | ldav15 | keldwud: or xargs |
| 17:53.56 | keldwud | ooh, is this a proper situation for xargs? |
| 17:54.01 | keldwud | I've been waiting for that |
| 17:54.17 | keldwud | in the beginning I used to try and use xargs for my iterating through a list |
| 17:54.28 | keldwud | instead of a for loop |
| 17:54.39 | keldwud | but in this case, maybe you're right, xargs would be simpler? |
| 17:54.44 | goozbach | things I want to try #473: Yell "Hey pervert!" in a crowded room and see who turns around. |
| 17:54.59 | keldwud | goozbach: everyone, because everyone wants to see who the pervert is |
| 17:55.04 | keldwud | and loud noise |
| 17:55.08 | keldwud | we are animals |
| 17:55.27 | keldwud | and animals respond to stimulus such as loud noises by directing their eyes toward the loud noise |
| 17:55.36 | keldwud | it was a matter of survival, I think :) |
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| 17:56.36 | youtah | dremex, is alive! |
| 17:56.53 | youtah | get any weird viruses we should be aware of in Mexico? |
| 17:57.21 | youtah | http://radicale.org/technical_choices/#idlazy |
| 17:58.44 | shalkie | goozbach: Please let it be the redhead, please let it be the redhead.... :-D |
| 17:59.08 | keldwud | mind helping me decrypt this? find / -gid OLDGID -exec chgrp NEWGID {} \ |
| 17:59.16 | keldwud | I still haven't figured out how -exec and {} \ work yet |
| 17:59.20 | keldwud | but I've seen it a lot and used it before |
| 17:59.20 | keldwud | but I don't understand how it works |
| 17:59.41 | goozbach | -exec is a command to run on each thing find "finds" |
| 17:59.53 | goozbach | and it replaces each item inside {} |
| 17:59.59 | goozbach | and teh end should be \; |
| 18:00.16 | keldwud | yeah I meant \; |
| 18:00.16 | keldwud | :) |
| 18:00.24 | goozbach | because the semicolon is an argument but the shell will interpret it as "end this command" |
| 18:00.26 | Migs | I really hate high school kids |
| 18:00.26 | keldwud | okay and so what would xargs do in this case? |
| 18:00.30 | goozbach | so you excape |
| 18:00.46 | Migs | there's a newish fad going around, where students set up a "confessions" Twitter account |
| 18:00.46 | goozbach | find / # find all files starting from "/" |
| 18:00.57 | Migs | other students DM their "confessions" to this account, and they get reposted "anonymously." |
| 18:01.08 | ldav15 | keldwud: or find / -gid OLDGID -print0 | xargs -0 -ifoo chgrp NEWGID foo |
| 18:01.20 | Migs | things like "my friend got knocked up in the preschool room" |
| 18:01.37 | Migs | or "came to miss rodrickson's class high" |
| 18:01.37 | goozbach | -gid FOO # an argument to find to limit what it finds to anything with the GID of FOO |
| 18:01.55 | Migs | some of them are also things like "Jerrica's pretty, but a total whore" |
| 18:02.16 | goozbach | -exec # another arg to find which tells find to execute something for each item it finds |
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| 18:02.22 | Migs | are kids really this idiotic? |
| 18:02.43 | goozbach | chgrp NEWGID {} \; # is the command to execute on each item |
| 18:02.51 | keldwud | lol, sorry goozbach :) I meant I just needed help with the -exec {} \; part |
| 18:02.52 | goozbach | replacing {} with the found file path |
| 18:02.58 | shalkie | Migs: Do you not remember HS? |
| 18:02.59 | romanovic | Migs: I heard about that. Sounds like the 2010's version of writing things on the bathroom stall wall |
| 18:03.02 | keldwud | I understand the find part |
| 18:03.03 | Migs | oh I remember it |
| 18:03.09 | goozbach | chgrp changes the group ownership of a file |
| 18:03.20 | goozbach | Migs: beacause stupid |
| 18:03.22 | keldwud | yeah, I'm going to do a chown and a chgrp |
| 18:03.47 | Migs | of course, there's nothing anonymous about it. One kid knows exactly who's sending all these to him/her. |
| 18:03.56 | shalkie | keldwud: chown can change both user and group at the same time. |
| 18:04.54 | keldwud | shalkie: so yeah, I have some files that were only owned by $DELETED_GROUP and some files that are only part of group $DELETED_GROUP, and then some files that are both |
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| 18:05.02 | goozbach | Migs: again, teenagers are stupid |
| 18:05.31 | Migs | yeah |
| 18:05.39 | Migs | why can't they at least keep this stupidity confined to their school? |
| 18:05.39 | shalkie | keldwud: Ah. |
| 18:05.50 | Migs | now they're making it all public on Twitter |
| 18:09.35 | shalkie | Migs: They would have made it all public before, we all just had a range of communication at that age that we couldn't easily overcome. |
| 18:10.00 | sontek | I wouldn't say only teenagers are stupid |
| 18:10.46 | sontek | I've been noticing that in general people aren't very intelligent ;) |
| 18:11.23 | goozbach | again, because stupid! |
| 18:12.20 | Migs | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1wWhLzDRIY |
| 18:17.36 | Jayce | in about a week I have a teenager... and yes, they are stupid :) |
| 18:17.51 | jsmith | Jayce: No arguments from me here |
| 18:20.08 | distortedvoice | Migs: that's gay as fuck |
| 18:20.40 | distortedvoice | Now im gonna dip some vagisil and speak my mind |
| 18:21.07 | *** mode/#utah [+o goozbach] by ChanServ |
| 18:27.52 | keldwud | ok so I've changed all my incorrect groups |
| 18:27.58 | keldwud | using find gid |
| 18:28.14 | *** part/#utah ljenkins (~ljenkins@137.190.80.249) |
| 18:29.01 | keldwud | now if I want to change the owner, I do find -user, right? |
| 18:29.01 | keldwud | -user = owner? |
| 18:30.31 | levi | Migs: Yes, kids are really that stupid. Hopefully many of them will grow out of it before doing permanent damage to themselves or others. |
| 18:31.04 | ldav15 | keldwud: yes, 'find -user UID' sounds right... |
| 18:31.24 | levi | I recall hearing about some research showing that some of the physiological changes going on in teenagers measurably impair judgement, or something to that effect. |
| 18:31.42 | keldwud | I tried it on a smaller folder |
| 18:31.42 | keldwud | and it worked |
| 18:31.43 | keldwud | so then I used it on / |
| 18:32.43 | levi | sontek: I think that people in general have the capacity to make good decisions, but are not well-practiced in exercising that capacity. :) |
| 18:35.28 | joshh | Migs: is there really someone name jerrica? =\ |
| 18:37.16 | sontek | I find my 2 1/2 year old is pretty smart, wonder at what age they start going down hill? He has started to mimic me... so it has probably already started |
| 18:38.06 | Jayce | the mimicing applies equally to your worst attributes |
| 18:38.29 | Jayce | add to that the teenage idiocy, and you see the worst in yourself magnified |
| 18:40.11 | joshh | my daughter is mimicing some bad habits from her kindergarten friends now too |
| 18:40.39 | joshh | there's a girl who dislikes all forms of cheese, and now she never wants any cheese with anything either |
| 18:42.18 | joshh | not to mention all the new words and phrases |
| 18:47.21 | romanovic | they were talking about adolescent behavior a couple weeks ago on BBC World radio. I thought it was interesting they cited many cultures around the world where the transition from child to adult does not include what we would call a rebellious phase |
| 18:48.13 | Jayce | so far, my boy is more like me.. not a rebellious, more a lazy phase :) |
| 18:48.15 | romanovic | yet in the west, we assume it is a psychological fact that all children will go through such a phase. |
| 18:50.04 | joshh | a lot of other cultures either have less to rebel against, or far more pressing matters to care about |
| 18:50.37 | Jayce | aww dad, I don't want to subsistence hunt today, didn't you know I went vegan?! |
| 18:50.50 | joshh | european kids can drink wine at a meal when they are young, so they don't feel a need to sneak out to a jungle juice party |
| 18:52.09 | joshh | i think america's culture with regard to authority, morality, "the man", religion, etc creates the rebel phase phenomenon |
| 18:52.54 | levi | Well, few human behaviors truly have simple explanations. I'm sure there's some interaction of biology and culture. |
| 18:54.12 | joshh | true |
| 18:54.14 | romanovic | joshh: yeah, a lot of the other cultures were 3rd world, where adolescents frequently take on adult responsibilities at a much younger age |
| 18:55.34 | levi | http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/03/teenagers-friends-and-bad-decisions/ |
| 18:56.11 | joshh | there's also the media, rappers and beibers getting arrested, few great role models, no respect for teachers, and so on |
| 18:56.32 | joshh | it all creates this idea that teenagers need to break the rules to be cool, imo |
| 18:57.26 | levi | The link I posted suggested that the *idea* that peers were observing them caused much more change in behavior in teens than in adults. |
| 18:58.55 | levi | Apparently brain research is almost always correlational, though, so it's very difficult to tell which is cause and which is effect. |
| 19:01.10 | sontek | I know I learned most of my poor behaviors at school with friends and not at home |
| 19:01.44 | sontek | I wonder if other cultures have a more strict school system to prevent the spread of bad behavior like that? |
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| 19:04.33 | Jayce | or how many are less caring of "bad" behavior.. eg where's the bar? |
| 19:06.20 | levi | Possibly the way we have our adolescents transition socially to adulthood at the same time they're physically transitioning is exacerbating the problems. |
| 19:07.03 | levi | Maybe they're better prepared for the physiological changes in other cultures when they've learned to take on responsibility earlier? |
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| 19:40.50 | Greagle | sontek: I think when you are strict, people rebel harder |
| 19:41.40 | youtah | WHY can't anything this cool ever happen to me? http://www.ksl.com/?sid=28851389&nid=711&title=couple-stumbles-upon-10-million-in-rare-coins&fm=home_page&s_cid=queue-7 |
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| 19:44.58 | Greagle | http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2567784/Calif-couple-strike-10-million-gold-coin-bonanza.html |
| 19:45.18 | Greagle | in case anyone is interested in figuring how they ended up "valuing" to $10M |
| 19:46.00 | Greagle | it's cool, face value at $27k |
| 19:46.45 | Greagle | hey youtah, maybe one day one of us will find a pot of bitcoins lying around the Interwebs :X |
| 19:47.25 | youtah | YES! |
| 19:47.49 | youtah | SPLIT! |
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| 19:51.59 | Greagle | do you have any diskettes? they might be worth something soon.. |
| 19:52.05 | Greagle | :) |
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| 19:55.02 | keldwud | ouch |
| 19:55.02 | keldwud | that was a huge split |
| 19:55.02 | keldwud | so I searched through man rm and didn't find anything under "exclude" |
| 19:55.02 | keldwud | would I just have to use a regex to exclude certain files from an rm *? |
| 19:55.21 | fugue88 | In "rm *" the * is bash filename expansion, not a feature of rm. |
| 19:55.51 | fugue88 | You could use bash filename patterns to be more specific than *, but they aren't regexps. |
| 19:56.32 | fugue88 | Or, "rm -i *" and be very careful about answering yes or no. ;P |
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| 19:58.49 | fugue88 | Ooh, cool. |
| 19:59.01 | fugue88 | keldwud: bash's filename expansion does in fact have a negation. |
| 19:59.15 | fugue88 | rm !(*keep*) |
| 19:59.34 | keldwud | with or without the stars depending on how specific I want to be, right? |
| 19:59.53 | keldwud | so I would do rm !(*keep*) * |
| 19:59.54 | keldwud | ? |
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| 20:00.04 | fugue88 | keldwud: No, not quite. |
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| 20:00.06 | keldwud | sup T4rku5 |
| 20:00.20 | fugue88 | And the ! needs to be escaped some how it seems. Still playing with this. |
| 20:00.30 | keldwud | ahh, thanks. I'll read up on it too |
| 20:00.43 | keldwud | you said bash filename expansion is where I would look |
| 20:00.58 | fugue88 | keldwud: But, in your "rm !(*keep*) *" the !(*keep*) gets expanded, and so does the *, and every file matching either is passed as an arg to rm. |
| 20:01.09 | fugue88 | keldwud: That's right, in the info pages. |
| 20:01.56 | fugue88 | keldwud: Oh, gee, you have to enable the "extglob" option to get the ! bheavior. |
| 20:01.58 | keldwud | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/216995/how-can-i-use-inverse-or-negative-wildcards-when-pattern-matching-in-a-unix-linu |
| 20:02.03 | keldwud | oh do I? |
| 20:02.20 | keldwud | okay yeah I see that in the answer there |
| 20:02.27 | keldwud | shopt -s extglob |
| 20:02.34 | keldwud | shopt -u extglob |
| 20:02.52 | keldwud | so how do I do a dry run, I can echo it, right? |
| 20:03.09 | fugue88 | yeah, either "echo rm !(*pattern*)" |
| 20:03.12 | keldwud | http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/7056/how-do-you-run-a-dry-run-of-rm-to-see-what-files-will-be-deleted |
| 20:03.16 | fugue88 | or "ls !(*pattern*)" |
| 20:03.25 | fozzmoo | https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1/1044038_734567546561374_491787140_n.jpg |
| 20:04.09 | fugue88 | or echo without rm even, I guess. |
| 20:04.28 | fugue88 | likes to prepend script lines with echo to verify what'lll they'll do, sometimes |
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| 20:05.29 | keldwud | so echo rm * wouldn't actually remove things? |
| 20:05.35 | fugue88 | Right. |
| 20:06.06 | fugue88 | Practise in a temp directory. I'm not responsible, etc. |
| 20:06.08 | fugue88 | ;) |
| 20:06.19 | keldwud | insanitywolf.jpg |
| 20:06.36 | keldwud | PRACTICE ECHO RM -RF * ON PRODUCTION SERVER! |
| 20:07.53 | keldwud | now I need to figure out if I can have multiple terms |
| 20:08.04 | keldwud | i.e. exclude more than one thing |
| 20:08.12 | keldwud | practices some more |
| 20:08.28 | keldwud | | |
| 20:08.31 | keldwud | duh, forgot about or |
| 20:08.49 | keldwud | woot :) |
| 20:09.16 | fugue88 | keldwud: Thanks for teaching me about !() and |, btw. |
| 20:09.23 | keldwud | haha wat? |
| 20:09.33 | keldwud | I never taught anyone anything |
| 20:09.40 | fugue88 | keldwud asks a question, I go read the info page. |
| 20:09.44 | keldwud | heh |
| 20:09.45 | fugue88 | :) |
| 20:09.47 | keldwud | we make a good team :) |
| 20:09.55 | keldwud | goozbach is pretty good with me, too |
| 20:10.02 | keldwud | but I think you learn more from my questions than he does |
| 20:10.07 | keldwud | because he already knows it, usually |
| 20:10.14 | fugue88 | Yeah, he's smart and stuff. |
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| 20:13.51 | keldwud | even better insanity wolf. write rm command in notepad, then copy to buffer and right click into ssh terminal *before* typing echo first |
| 20:14.01 | keldwud | can always type echo after you've pasted, right? ;) |
| 20:14.28 | keldwud | unless, of course, you included some whitespace beneath from where you copied. which would register as a return carriage |
| 20:14.49 | keldwud | oh another question |
| 20:14.58 | keldwud | diff between : > filename and > filename |
| 20:15.54 | fugue88 | ? |
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| 20:20.23 | keldwud | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13575477/unix-shell-script-to-truncate-a-large-file |
| 20:20.38 | keldwud | truncating a file by essentially opening it and overwriting it with nothing |
| 20:20.55 | keldwud | instead of removing the file and re-creating it |
| 20:21.27 | fugue88 | Ah, the ":" was part of it. |
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| 20:23.59 | fugue88 | I don't understand the ":" thingy in bash. |
| 20:24.20 | keldwud | yeah I was trying to figure it out, too |
| 20:24.28 | keldwud | he called it a no-op |
| 20:24.49 | keldwud | which seems "cleaner" and less error prone than > filename |
| 20:24.54 | keldwud | because it is more concise |
| 20:25.24 | keldwud | and more concise is generally safer with computers, right? |
| 20:25.24 | fugue88 | An almost no-op. Seems similar to "exec" in some ways, but I don't understand if there are any differences when using exec for just redirects, as in "exec > file" |
| 20:25.45 | keldwud | yeah I don't even know what a no-op is :) |
| 20:25.58 | fugue88 | no operation. Doesn't do anything. |
| 20:26.02 | keldwud | so exex > file and > file would do the same thing? |
| 20:26.04 | Tene | keldwud: Well, strictly speaking, when the only difference between two texts is that one has something removed, the one with something removed will always be more concise. |
| 20:26.07 | keldwud | *exec |
| 20:26.18 | Tene | keldwud: No, exec > file has continuing effects for later commands. |
| 20:26.20 | fugue88 | keldwud: That's what I'm not sure about. |
| 20:26.24 | keldwud | ahh ok |
| 20:26.35 | fugue88 | hmmmm.... |
| 20:26.53 | Tene | exec, withouth a command to exec, just operates on the open file descriptors of the current shell. |
| 20:27.06 | keldwud | but it doesn't close it, like : does? |
| 20:27.23 | Tene | open a shell and try: exec 5>/tmp/foo.txt |
| 20:27.45 | keldwud | what's the 5>? |
| 20:27.56 | Tene | opening fd 5 |
| 20:28.03 | keldwud | I've only heard of 1> amd 2> amd stuff |
| 20:28.17 | Tene | then do whatever other redirects you like, for example: echo foo 1>&5 |
| 20:28.23 | Tene | or just ls /proc/$$/fd/ |
| 20:28.23 | fugue88 | Yep, 0 1 and 2 are all opened by default, the "standard" streams. |
| 20:28.33 | Tene | 0=stdin, 1=stdout, 2=stderr |
| 20:28.58 | goozbach | here's one for you git fans |
| 20:29.07 | Tene | or try a shell script doing something like: |
| 20:29.11 | goozbach | I've got a git repo I use to base my development on |
| 20:29.16 | goozbach | it's got a makefile and a readme |
| 20:29.20 | keldwud | so I ran the command and it made an empty file |
| 20:29.25 | keldwud | I'm going to fill it now |
| 20:29.32 | keldwud | and try various commands to truncate it |
| 20:29.39 | goozbach | it's named rpm-base |
| 20:29.39 | keldwud | although i won't be able to see what's going on in the background |
| 20:29.51 | goozbach | when I want to create a new package I do |
| 20:29.56 | Tene | exec 5>&1 1>/tmp/foo.txt |
| 20:30.01 | goozbach | git clone http://foo.com/git/rpm-base.git |
| 20:30.08 | fugue88 | keldwud: lsof /tmp/foo.txt |
| 20:30.10 | Tene | that saves stdout in fd 5, and redirects stdout to a file |
| 20:30.19 | Tene | then run a bunch of commands and all their output is saved in the file |
| 20:30.27 | keldwud | cat: /tmp/foo.txt: input file is output file |
| 20:30.28 | keldwud | haha |
| 20:30.29 | Tene | later, exec 1>&5 to restore it |
| 20:30.33 | goozbach | then I add my software, and store it in a new remote |
| 20:30.47 | keldwud | I need to learn more about redirects |
| 20:30.50 | goozbach | git remote add foo-remote http://foo.com/git/foo.git |
| 20:31.01 | keldwud | what's a good resource on redirects? |
| 20:31.04 | Tene | keldwud: you can learn a lot from reading through bash(1) |
| 20:31.21 | keldwud | man, I always get two or three paragraphs through that |
| 20:31.23 | goozbach | I want to be able to push any modifications I make to the makefile and/or readme back to the original git repo |
| 20:31.28 | keldwud | and then either get distracted or something else happens |
| 20:31.35 | goozbach | but not include any of the new software |
| 20:31.37 | goozbach | any ideas? |
| 20:31.44 | keldwud | http://www.gnu.org/software/bash/manual/bashref.html |
| 20:31.53 | Tene | keldwud: search for ^REDIRECTION |
| 20:32.06 | keldwud | 3.6 |
| 20:33.07 | Tene | keldwud: back when I was first starting, every week or so I'd spend 20 minutes looking through the man page for a tool I frequently used, searching for something I didn't know about it. |
| 20:33.17 | Tene | bash, vim, sed, grep, etc |
| 20:33.18 | keldwud | yeah I spend a lot of time in man pages |
| 20:33.32 | keldwud | all day every day seems like :-p |
| 20:33.38 | keldwud | sometimes I get things done even ;) |
| 20:33.59 | Tene | goozbach: you can always cherry-pick commits back into a branch |
| 20:34.07 | goozbach | Tene: that's one idea |
| 20:34.20 | goozbach | would a sub-tree be a better idea though? |
| 20:34.22 | Tene | goozbach: or make those commits to a branch without the software, and merge it into your with-software branch |
| 20:34.34 | Tene | goozbach: that would require all the files to be in a subdirectory |
| 20:34.51 | Tene | if that's the case, subtree and friends are a great option |
| 20:35.07 | goozbach | I guess I can do a subdir and symlink the makefile to the top level |
| 20:36.13 | Tene | goozbach: you might even include a script in the repo to set itself up as a submodule or subtree or whatever you choose in $CWD |
| 20:40.57 | keldwud | wait what? |
| 20:41.04 | keldwud | I don't have to do find -exec rm? |
| 20:41.08 | keldwud | I can just do find -delete? |
| 20:41.18 | keldwud | oh, but it's not recursive |
| 20:41.18 | keldwud | ok |
| 20:41.31 | keldwud | so if I still wanted rm -rf, I'd still have to do -exec, right? |
| 20:42.25 | fugue88 | keldwud: find itself is recursive, and you can ask it to go depth-first or breadth-first, so -delete could still work. |
| 20:43.49 | fugue88 | keldwud: `man find` and search for -depth. It's turned on automatically by -delete. |
| 20:44.23 | keldwud | oh weird |
| 20:44.25 | keldwud | I broke something |
| 20:44.38 | keldwud | my commands aren't working |
| 20:44.45 | keldwud | I tried ^C |
| 20:45.02 | keldwud | the command I last typed was echo ': > filename' |
| 20:45.18 | keldwud | oh exit worked |
| 21:02.24 | sontek | but -delete wont xargs it, will it? I like to do find . -name "*.pyc" -exec rm {} + to speed things up |
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| 21:38.56 | Tene | sontek: find -delete just does unlink and rmdir directly, with no other process involved, so it will be faster and lower overhead than -exec rm {} + |
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