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| 00:43.00 | shalkie | Did anyone point out that the Granite School Police Officers are being issued AR-15 rifles? |
| 00:43.18 | shalkie | http://www.ksl.com/?sid=28832044&nid=148&fm=latest_videos |
| 00:44.17 | joshh | i read they were m16 |
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| 00:44.57 | joshh | somewhere besides ksl but can't remember |
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| 01:08.03 | romanovic | hopefully not something they feel they need to carry around as their primary assigned weapon... |
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| 01:13.49 | jxqz | haha |
| 01:13.52 | jxqz | lamers |
| 01:16.44 | jxqz | "you will do your homework, ethnic student" |
| 01:28.31 | RyanE | I've probably got 4 network drops in here. |
| 01:28.41 | RyanE | wrong window... sorry. |
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| 13:55.21 | eightyeight | goodbye mt. gox. it was nice knowing you |
| 13:55.31 | eightyeight | time to brace for impact |
| 13:55.39 | eightyeight | http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1yv6ph/some_words_for_my_friends/ |
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| 16:53.42 | cjcothran | goozbach: you about? |
| 16:54.22 | goozbach | yeah |
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| 16:57.22 | youtah | http://www.ksl.com/?sid=28838697&nid=148&title=unusual-ruling-has-mother-grandmothers-fighting-for-custody-of-2-year-old&fm=home_page&s_cid=featured-1 |
| 16:57.41 | youtah | Well, that's unsettling. I wonder what photos the Grandmother has of the Judge.... |
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| 17:05.56 | programmerq | so, collectd is fabulous. I just don't like the way it gathers cpu statistics (counters of jiffies as opposed to calculating %util) |
| 17:06.12 | programmerq | counters of jiffies works fine if you plan to use the rrdtool backend, but I don't. |
| 17:06.54 | programmerq | anyone know an existing plugin that does %util? There's work in collectd proper to get that feature added to a future release, but I don't want to compile collectd from source of a feature branch for my production. |
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| 17:50.36 | youtah | Stand back |
| 17:50.40 | youtah | I am doing HTML |
| 17:53.34 | youtah | I think I need to finally sit down and overhaul my "temp" page on my website and actually make it look nice |
| 17:54.00 | cjcothran | <html><body><p>youtah is doing <b>HTML</b></p></body></html> |
| 17:54.15 | cjcothran | I forgot the proper tag for emphasis |
| 17:54.25 | cjcothran | so I used an old deprecated tag |
| 17:55.28 | youtah | <fingers type="together"><sound voice="mr burns">excellent</sound></fingers> |
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| 18:01.58 | cjcothran | haha |
| 18:01.58 | cjcothran | njice |
| 18:02.00 | cjcothran | *nice |
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| 18:40.17 | cjcothran | <hiccup> |
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| 18:44.37 | *** mode/#utah [+v emcnabb] by ChanServ |
| 18:51.05 | cjcothran | hmm.. what type of people have good "organizing information" skill sets? |
| 18:58.53 | jxqz | ~napoleon cjcothran |
| 18:58.54 | infobot | ACTION throws cjcothran's favorite Masters of the Universe action figure out the bus window attached to a fishing line |
| 19:00.52 | cjcothran | whoops |
| 19:01.01 | cjcothran | forgot about company lunch today |
| 19:01.13 | cjcothran | oh well :) |
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| 21:11.16 | youtah | Twitter wins again |
| 21:11.37 | youtah | https://twitter.com/youtah/status/438351237235224576 |
| 21:11.48 | youtah | https://twitter.com/youtah/status/438351443427221504 |
| 21:11.59 | youtah | https://twitter.com/youtah/status/438351756636864512 |
| 21:12.16 | youtah | The "Director" of Repairs called me. |
| 21:12.33 | youtah | They are shipping me a new lens cap overnight essentially |
| 21:16.32 | fozzmoo | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:18.24 | Migs | nice |
| 21:19.02 | youtah | I was furious btw |
| 21:19.03 | Migs | sending a cheap lens cap is better than the bad PR |
| 21:19.25 | youtah | Especially with my 2000+ followers who are mostly other photographers? |
| 21:19.29 | Migs | Yes |
| 21:20.07 | youtah | I was so pissed when they told us that they never received it |
| 21:20.38 | Migs | nothing gets fixed when I complain on Twitter about our government, though |
| 21:20.41 | Migs | go fig |
| 21:22.51 | youtah | lol |
| 21:25.42 | youtah | "64 gigabits per second (Gb/s) over a cable 57 meters long " http://phys.org/news/2014-02-data-transfer.html |
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| 21:27.38 | tomstokes | I wish 10Gb ethernet would come down in price already. |
| 21:27.53 | youtah | blames fozzmoo |
| 21:28.03 | tomstokes | Sure, I can get behind that |
| 21:28.09 | tomstokes | blames fozzmoo as well |
| 21:28.14 | youtah | lol |
| 21:29.35 | eightyeight | twitter is the place to go when you're emotional |
| 21:30.28 | youtah | So you're saying it's perfect for me? |
| 21:30.36 | youtah | crawls back under his desk and cries |
| 21:30.39 | eightyeight | are you always emotional? :) |
| 21:34.52 | Jayce | yeah, pretty accurate description of him |
| 21:35.10 | youtah | Quiet! I'm looking at pictures of kittens on the internet |
| 21:35.38 | *** join/#utah neonotanderson (~neonotand@c-76-23-5-72.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:35.49 | shalkie | And that gets you emotional? |
| 21:36.08 | cjcothran | no, being emotional makes him look at pussy pics on the webz |
| 21:36.13 | cjcothran | ahem |
| 21:36.16 | cjcothran | I mean pictures of kittens |
| 21:36.24 | youtah | lol, cjcothran went there |
| 21:36.36 | cjcothran | yessir :) |
| 21:36.49 | youtah | Oh Heavens.... http://i.imgur.com/TmUFVQM.png |
| 21:37.04 | cjcothran | risky click because of subject |
| 21:37.05 | cjcothran | :-p |
| 21:37.07 | shalkie | is to afraid to click on the imgur link now. |
| 21:37.10 | cjcothran | ^ |
| 21:37.13 | shalkie | s/to/too |
| 21:37.17 | youtah | Talk about some foreshadowing. It's about Breaking Bad, it's safe. |
| 21:37.19 | youtah | ROFL |
| 21:37.39 | klys | I'm sure it'll be in the logs you can click on it anyday. |
| 21:37.39 | youtah | I almost just shot powerade out my nose |
| 21:39.13 | klys | why do you prefer powerade to gatorade, youtah? |
| 21:39.29 | youtah | because it's free and comes out of the fountain here at work |
| 21:39.51 | shalkie | You have fountains of powerade? Wow... Our drinking fountain is just water... |
| 21:40.07 | youtah | It has what plants crave |
| 21:40.19 | *** join/#utah bgerber (~gerberb@suse103.mwiap.com) |
| 21:41.56 | youtah | Oh come on... someone has to know or get the reference! |
| 21:42.49 | klys | wouldn't it be nice to have an irc aggregator |
| 21:45.34 | klys | who was it in here that had an rss aggregator |
| 21:45.48 | cjcothran | I get free water at my work |
| 21:45.52 | cjcothran | does a little dance |
| 21:46.10 | cjcothran | I mean, there's also free sodas, and energy drinks, and v8's, and all that yucky stuff |
| 21:46.16 | cjcothran | but water is the best! |
| 21:47.18 | Jayce | is happy that we have a pebble-ice machine |
| 21:47.50 | neonotanderson | u guys encourage me to buckle down with that CS BS |
| 21:47.58 | neonotanderson | so i can be a software dev and live a cushyass life |
| 21:48.24 | klys | when you read language, some of the letters are transistors. |
| 21:49.50 | klys | in fact, the word `classier' is a cmos inverter. |
| 21:52.07 | eightyeight | http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=28843410 |
| 21:52.10 | eightyeight | awesome |
| 21:52.10 | youtah | http://imgur.com/gallery/TJgbA |
| 21:54.19 | cjcothran | hey, neonotanderson, are you coding anything right now? |
| 21:54.26 | cjcothran | if not, why not? get to it |
| 21:54.53 | cjcothran | sysadmin = more cushy than software dev :-p |
| 21:55.39 | cjcothran | although.. to be fair, software devs usually don't have to get up in the middle of the night on a weekend to fix things |
| 21:56.22 | stderr- | If you enjoy what you do, your job will be cushy. |
| 21:56.29 | cjcothran | liar! |
| 21:56.31 | stderr- | Regardless of what the job is. |
| 21:56.31 | cjcothran | ;) |
| 21:56.54 | cjcothran | stderr- is telling lies, neonotanderson. Don't listen to him. |
| 21:57.12 | cjcothran | there are only a few truly cushy jobs and it has nothing to do with whether or not you enjoy your work |
| 21:57.28 | *** join/#utah Zefram (~Zefram@unaffiliated/zefram) |
| 21:57.41 | cjcothran | that's just hippie mumbo jumbo, like the law of attraction |
| 21:58.13 | cjcothran | and the healing power of crystals |
| 21:58.16 | cjcothran | and positive thinking |
| 21:58.52 | cjcothran | heh. my sister's boyfriend and his best friend's little crush got into it quite vocally once in the middle of the street |
| 21:59.10 | cjcothran | about how crystals are real |
| 21:59.32 | cjcothran | protip: never tell a superstitious person that what they believe in isn't real |
| 21:59.38 | cjcothran | it causes violence |
| 21:59.51 | cjcothran | because that's the only way they can prove that their idea has any validity |
| 22:00.19 | cjcothran | there's a correlation between how imaginary something is and how violent somebody gets to protect the imaginary idea |
| 22:01.04 | levi | Of course crystals are real. |
| 22:02.04 | levi | Vibrating quartz crystals are at the heart of most of our electronic gadgets! |
| 22:02.51 | levi | They don't magically heal people, though. |
| 22:02.53 | RyanE | crystals are as real as any other physical thing. |
| 22:03.32 | stderr- | crystals aren't real?! I've been living a lie! |
| 22:03.38 | stderr- | sadly removes his watch. |
| 22:04.02 | youtah | lol |
| 22:04.09 | rsimpkins | I believe in crystals. |
| 22:04.19 | cjcothran | you guys know what I meant :) |
| 22:04.26 | RyanE | I totally believe in them. |
| 22:04.32 | rsimpkins | I don't, actually. People think crystals heal people? |
| 22:04.35 | shalkie | cjcothran: So, if we carry that argument over to religious fanatics... |
| 22:04.40 | cjcothran | rsimpkins: yes, they do |
| 22:04.44 | RyanE | I don't believe crystals will heal me, though. |
| 22:04.47 | rsimpkins | cjcothran: That's pretty messed up. |
| 22:04.56 | cjcothran | shalkie: well, I don't want to draw any lines or point any fingers :) |
| 22:05.03 | RyanE | shalkie: I believe religious fanatics also are real. :) |
| 22:05.08 | *** join/#utah ldav15 (~ldavis@23.30.55.129) |
| 22:05.12 | rsimpkins | Of course, the same can be said for all those essential oil things peopl keep trying to push on our family. |
| 22:05.15 | cjcothran | rsimpkins: and it gets worse, the people that believe in crystal healing, they use it in place of medical attention for things like cancer |
| 22:05.19 | RyanE | rsimpkins: gah! |
| 22:05.21 | levi | The sun goes up, the sun goes down. The tides come in, the tides go out. |
| 22:05.32 | stderr- | I think it's more telling that someone is willing to argue until violence with someone who believes that crystals heal people. |
| 22:05.33 | RyanE | cjcothran: no law against being stupid. |
| 22:05.35 | stderr- | Who cares? |
| 22:05.37 | RyanE | and why do you care? |
| 22:05.50 | stderr- | Unless they're throwing their healing crystals at people |
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| 22:05.55 | *** mode/#utah [+v emcnabb] by ChanServ |
| 22:05.58 | RyanE | yeah, those things are *sharp*! |
| 22:06.01 | rsimpkins | Crystal healing is a religion. Don't mess with people's religion. Even if you think it is totally feather plucking insane. |
| 22:06.33 | cjcothran | well, when one of my nieces or nephews gets sick and they don't get medical attention, I kind of care |
| 22:06.35 | Jayce | these essential oils totally trash your crystals.. |
| 22:06.41 | RyanE | heh |
| 22:06.45 | rsimpkins | Just like essential oils, multivitimans, noni juice, and all the other Utah MLM stuff. |
| 22:06.52 | cjcothran | because it is believed that they are already receiving medical attention |
| 22:07.06 | cjcothran | MLM pays my paycheck indirectly |
| 22:07.09 | cjcothran | :( |
| 22:07.10 | levi | Jayce: No, no... alternative things are all completely compatible with everything but Big Pharma. |
| 22:07.13 | cjcothran | I'm evil |
| 22:07.20 | RyanE | cjcothran: And just how is complaining about your relatives on #utah helping this problem? |
| 22:07.35 | Jayce | as long as they aren't oils from GM plants.. |
| 22:07.41 | RyanE | I think working for MLMs is evil. |
| 22:07.46 | rsimpkins | RyanE: It is entertainment. he didn't come here for help! :) |
| 22:07.50 | cjcothran | it helps me because I get to externalize my inner thoughts |
| 22:07.51 | RyanE | but not killing someone evil. |
| 22:07.58 | levi | Jayce: Oh geez!! Now I've got to go check mine! |
| 22:08.03 | RyanE | so, free therapy? |
| 22:08.06 | stderr- | I'm on a strict GMO only diet, myself. |
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| 22:08.18 | cjcothran | if that's what you call it, sure |
| 22:08.22 | rsimpkins | I only eat food. That's my diet. |
| 22:08.32 | youtah | nom |
| 22:08.35 | Jayce | rsimpkins: are crystals food? |
| 22:08.37 | cjcothran | some people, they talk to their friends or their significant others, or their religious leaders, or their therapists, or family members |
| 22:08.45 | levi | rsimpkins: If you can call that "stuff" you eat food! |
| 22:08.48 | rsimpkins | Jayce: They can be, you bet. Ever have a lolipop? |
| 22:08.49 | cjcothran | me? when I am thinking about something, I jsut shit it out of my mouth directly onto IRC |
| 22:08.56 | cjcothran | and I don't even feel bad about it |
| 22:08.59 | Jayce | rsimpkins: touché |
| 22:08.59 | youtah | TWSS |
| 22:09.20 | levi | Mmm, sugar crystals are the best. |
| 22:09.22 | rsimpkins | levi: I do call the stuff I eat food. That's why I eat it. :) |
| 22:09.26 | stderr- | cjcothran: that sounds like a character flaw. |
| 22:09.27 | cjcothran | no, meth crystals are better |
| 22:09.37 | klys | is tahitian noni a utah company |
| 22:09.48 | RyanE | I think so. |
| 22:09.50 | cjcothran | stderr-: getting paid indirectly from MLM? |
| 22:09.51 | Jayce | Sugar passed through a maillard reaction... |
| 22:09.54 | RyanE | white tahitians |
| 22:09.56 | cjcothran | yeah, tahitian noni is utah |
| 22:09.56 | levi | rsimpkins: http://rtsisyk.github.io/luafun/reference.html |
| 22:10.09 | stderr- | cjcothran: flooding the channel with unfiltered inanity. |
| 22:10.21 | RyanE | levi: that looks fun. |
| 22:10.25 | cjcothran | I suppose that's probably what ban hammers are for, then |
| 22:10.32 | cjcothran | I'm sure I deserve it when it happens |
| 22:10.43 | *** join/#utah pdayton (~pjdayton@67.21.63.142) |
| 22:10.47 | RyanE | well, if you don't get banned, you can't play a martyr... :) |
| 22:10.55 | cjcothran | they're to take care of people like me |
| 22:11.01 | cjcothran | that spam crap |
| 22:11.21 | levi | RyanE: It plays nicely with LuaJIT optimizations, too. |
| 22:11.25 | Jayce | RyanE: you must be new to the internet to believe that :-p |
| 22:11.29 | cjcothran | I work for a company that has outsourced me to another company that provides MSP type service to MLM companies |
| 22:11.33 | youtah | falling asleep |
| 22:11.49 | RyanE | levi: yeah, reading intro now. Not currently a functional guy, but it is interesting. |
| 22:11.56 | youtah | all this talk of MLM stuff is shutting me down |
| 22:12.18 | cjcothran | youtah: well try this awesome water filter |
| 22:12.19 | Jayce | keep it up guys |
| 22:12.27 | *** join/#utah undertakingyou (~undertaki@c-24-10-245-253.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 22:12.32 | levi | RyanE: Functional is where it's at. Especially when it's also efficient. :) |
| 22:12.41 | cjcothran | Jayce: that's what she said ;) |
| 22:12.47 | RyanE | It's where it's been at for what... 40 years now? :) |
| 22:12.49 | cjcothran | sorry, couldn't resist |
| 22:12.53 | youtah | TWSS |
| 22:13.10 | rsimpkins | youtah: We have a great product our family has been using that takes one drop of liquid and cleans 10000 loads of laundry. It is ultra-super-massive-dense consentrate laundry soap. I will give you some for free if you find 10 people to buy it. |
| 22:13.20 | Jayce | levi: speaking of functional, we're going to have MJD at openwest (the guy that wrote higher order perl, and helped so many of us get more appreciation of functional) |
| 22:13.40 | rsimpkins | levi: The more I learn, the more I like. :) |
| 22:13.46 | stderr- | MJD? Maurice Jones-Drew? |
| 22:13.49 | Jayce | btw, why does having a stupid simple bandage on your index finger throw off your typing so much... |
| 22:13.55 | Jayce | Mark Jason-Dominus |
| 22:13.57 | levi | Jayce: You know I know who MJD is, I was there the last time he was here. :) |
| 22:14.05 | cjcothran | Jayce: dude, I hate that. I think it's because we rely on our sense of touch to type |
| 22:14.08 | Jayce | levi? no, he hasn't been here |
| 22:14.14 | cjcothran | and you aren't getting that feedback that you normally receive |
| 22:14.16 | Jayce | are you thinking of Damian? |
| 22:14.21 | levi | Oh, that's right, I was confusing him with Damian. |
| 22:14.25 | Jayce | very different backgrounds |
| 22:14.58 | levi | But I borrowed Higher Order Perl from you, and I occasionally read MJD's blog posts. |
| 22:15.20 | neonotanderson | oh i stepped away fro 2 seconds |
| 22:15.30 | neonotanderson | i already have a useless BA |
| 22:15.30 | rsimpkins | neonotanderson: Never do that in #utah. |
| 22:15.39 | neonotanderson | lol it's usually dead |
| 22:15.46 | *** join/#utah tristanbob (~quassel@2001:1948:212:0:55a4:cdaf:b03:b8ec) |
| 22:15.48 | levi | Except when you look away. |
| 22:15.49 | cjcothran | I'll take your BA off your hands if you don't want it, neonotanderson |
| 22:15.53 | neonotanderson | but the ba sure as hell ain't gonna get me a cushy job just retail and grocery store shit |
| 22:15.55 | RyanE | neonotanderson: you stepped away, now you have *2* useless BAs? |
| 22:15.55 | neonotanderson | so BS |
| 22:15.59 | neonotanderson | lol |
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| 22:16.11 | cjcothran | I wish I had a BA :( |
| 22:16.32 | neonotanderson | it prepares u for gap stocking very well |
| 22:16.42 | cjcothran | ummm |
| 22:16.46 | cjcothran | can you rephrase that? |
| 22:16.55 | cjcothran | the juvenile in me can't stop giggling at the phrase "gap stocking" |
| 22:16.59 | neonotanderson | lolol |
| 22:17.00 | Jayce | :) |
| 22:17.00 | stderr- | Perhaps your problem lies in the fact that you're allowing your degree to dictate what you can do. |
| 22:17.01 | rsimpkins | I bet it does. You can think of the philosophy of clothes placement. |
| 22:17.20 | cjcothran | wait, you have a BA in philosophy? |
| 22:17.33 | *** join/#utah nage (~nathan.ge@199.192.164.75) |
| 22:17.34 | *** join/#utah nage (~nathan.ge@unaffiliated/nage) |
| 22:17.39 | cjcothran | that's totally not useless. Philosophy is the foundation of all sciences and formal ways of thinking |
| 22:17.50 | rsimpkins | Except when it isn't! |
| 22:17.58 | rsimpkins | BOOM! |
| 22:17.58 | levi | Jayce: You should attend Lambda Lounge Utah meetings. |
| 22:17.59 | RyanE | isn't totally not useless? |
| 22:18.02 | cjcothran | bah! another philosophy major! |
| 22:18.03 | RyanE | gotta think about that one. |
| 22:18.04 | cjcothran | laughs |
| 22:18.26 | Jayce | levi: man, I have a lot of things I need to attend, sadly not my time of life with family/callings/etc |
| 22:18.40 | levi | Philosophy is awesome. But as a major, I think it's mostly a "stepping stone" to Law School or something. |
| 22:18.41 | Jayce | would be really good for me though |
| 22:18.44 | cjcothran | mentally appends "goes the dynamite" whenever he reads the word BOOM! |
| 22:19.16 | rsimpkins | cjcothran: Is there any other way to blow stuff up? |
| 22:19.35 | cjcothran | with a bicycle pump? |
| 22:19.43 | RyanE | levi: I can't get over the procedural way I've been doing things forever, and until I find myself doing functional as my 'day job', I don't think I'm going to "get it"... :| |
| 22:20.06 | cjcothran | or by placing a feather on my face, tilting my head back, and blowing gently? |
| 22:20.24 | rsimpkins | cjcothran: That's so lightweight. |
| 22:20.28 | cjcothran | or even better, write the word stuff on a small piece of tissue paper |
| 22:20.45 | levi | Jayce: It's only been going for a few months. We've had some amazing presenters already, though. |
| 22:20.57 | cjcothran | wait, which conference are you guys discussing? |
| 22:21.07 | Jayce | openwest.org |
| 22:21.15 | cjcothran | also, I know I've asked this before, but I think I asked when it was dead. Do we have a central source of utah cons anywhere? |
| 22:21.22 | levi | cjcothran: Jayce is talking about OpenWest, I'm talking about a Meetup, not a conference. |
| 22:21.30 | *** join/#utah bgerber (~gerberb@suse103.mwiap.com) |
| 22:21.39 | cjcothran | like, I could go look at a webpage and see all the tech related conferences in utah throughout the year? |
| 22:22.17 | RyanE | openwest is "the big fish" |
| 22:22.34 | RyanE | most everything else is user groups or meetups. |
| 22:22.53 | cjcothran | what was that one in september? |
| 22:22.57 | cjcothran | or was it october? |
| 22:22.58 | levi | RyanE: I haven't ever really had functional programming as part of my job description. Occasionally I use some functional programming tools, but mostly I picked it up on my own. |
| 22:22.59 | cjcothran | last year |
| 22:23.18 | cjcothran | and bsides is a step up from a meetup/user group |
| 22:23.42 | stderr- | levi: is Lambda Lounge where most of the gophers hang? I've been looking for a local Golang meetup. |
| 22:24.28 | cjcothran | damn |
| 22:24.32 | levi | stderr-: Hmm. Go isn't particularly functional, so it hasn't come up much, but I wouldn't be surprised if some attendees have played with it. |
| 22:24.35 | cjcothran | nothing on openwest website yet about speakers |
| 22:24.43 | RyanE | they're still choosing. |
| 22:24.47 | cjcothran | I wanted to send my boss to the website and ask him to buy me tickets |
| 22:24.55 | cjcothran | *a ticket |
| 22:25.14 | RyanE | there are enough tracks to interest most CS/IT types. |
| 22:25.44 | stderr- | levi: yea, I didn't think it was a great fit but it looks like the December Lambda Lounge Utah meeting was around Golang. |
| 22:25.46 | cjcothran | oh, it's all programming languages |
| 22:26.02 | cjcothran | mobile, python, javascript, ruby, php, java, perl, embedded |
| 22:26.03 | RyanE | yep |
| 22:26.10 | RyanE | and "misc" |
| 22:26.14 | stderr- | cjcothran: MWRC has a Dev Ops track |
| 22:26.17 | RyanE | which is where I'll be if they choose me. |
| 22:26.21 | cjcothran | wait, thetransistor still has a track? |
| 22:26.25 | cjcothran | or is this last year's? |
| 22:26.36 | cjcothran | dev ops track? awesome |
| 22:26.47 | cjcothran | I don't know what MWRC is, but it sounds great |
| 22:26.53 | levi | stderr-: Yeah, I missed the first one, so I forgot there was a Go talk then. :( |
| 22:27.00 | stderr- | cjcothran: http://mtnwestdevops.org/2014/sessions |
| 22:27.15 | cjcothran | ohw MW = mountain west |
| 22:27.29 | levi | My Haskell presentation is on Youtube now, though I wish I'd structured it a bit differently now. Alas, hindsight. |
| 22:27.59 | RyanE | levi: you submit to present at OpenWest? |
| 22:28.09 | levi | RyanE: Nope. |
| 22:28.10 | cjcothran | ohshi- that's in two weeks |
| 22:28.32 | RyanE | You should've. |
| 22:29.38 | levi | Maybe another time. I'd like to hone my presentation skills a bit before a venue like that. |
| 22:29.48 | RyanE | I've seen worse. :) |
| 22:30.12 | levi | How many of my presentations have you seen? ;) |
| 22:30.28 | RyanE | A couple. |
| 22:30.40 | RyanE | and a *lot* of worse ones by others. |
| 22:30.47 | rsimpkins | Who knows about Adobe and Open West? |
| 22:31.12 | levi | Well, I know that Adobe is a platinum sponsor of Open West. |
| 22:31.27 | RyanE | Of course, I *like* language definition graphs. :) |
| 22:31.30 | rsimpkins | I need to find out who, in our big organization, was the contact for that. |
| 22:31.41 | RyanE | rsimpkins: I think it was that guy. |
| 22:31.47 | fozzmoo | I'll ask. |
| 22:32.04 | rsimpkins | Thanks. I want to get our team involved, but I need a name. |
| 22:32.41 | fozzmoo | I'll let you know what I find out from the rest of the Openwest coreteam. |
| 22:33.49 | cjcothran | so can anybody tell me the name of the conference up in ogden septemberish of 2013? |
| 22:34.00 | cjcothran | it also had the word open or west in it |
| 22:34.18 | fozzmoo | Ogden? Up in Idaho? ;-) |
| 22:34.25 | RyanE | heh |
| 22:34.26 | cjcothran | haha yeah :) |
| 22:34.31 | Jayce | rsimpkins: we'll get you in, I just remember that it's the guy who has the title of "Open Source Outreach" or somesuch |
| 22:34.32 | RyanE | western openings? |
| 22:34.36 | cjcothran | I was thinking more like Logan is up in idaho |
| 22:36.43 | klys | logan has got to be close to 100 miles away from idaho |
| 22:37.12 | fozzmoo | Nah. Only about 25 miles. |
| 22:37.19 | klys | k |
| 22:37.20 | cjcothran | but think about the distance as a ratio compared to the rest of the state |
| 22:37.40 | fozzmoo | I was so close. 19.5 miles. |
| 22:37.42 | klys | because of the wyoming corner, yes |
| 22:37.54 | RyanE | doesn't much matter, as long as it's 'inside the line'... |
| 22:38.10 | stderr- | it's exactly 23.4 miles if you hike the shoreline trail |
| 22:38.30 | cjcothran | I still think the culture in that part of utah more resembles idaho culture rather than utah cultures found south of logan |
| 22:38.37 | cjcothran | but that's just my personal opinion |
| 22:38.45 | cjcothran | I don't have anything to back it up |
| 22:38.45 | klys | doods can stop correcting me |
| 22:38.57 | cjcothran | NOPE, SOMEBODY WAS WRONG ON THE INTERNETS! |
| 22:39.02 | klys | :p |
| 22:39.04 | cjcothran | :) |
| 22:39.07 | RyanE | Culture in Logan is culture in Logan. |
| 22:39.27 | stderr- | Logan is awesome. You can label the culture however you want. |
| 22:39.40 | cjcothran | the marsh mazes are awesome |
| 22:39.46 | fozzmoo | Logan is a university town... so while they're rural, they're "enlightened" and quite a bit more liberal than their neighbors. |
| 22:39.47 | cjcothran | and I've some good friends in Logan |
| 22:40.07 | cjcothran | I've even partied hard in Logan on more than one occasion |
| 22:40.09 | stderr- | best duck hunting in Utah |
| 22:40.25 | fozzmoo | spent 15+ years in Cache Valley |
| 22:40.49 | fozzmoo | (except for when I didn't.) |
| 22:41.17 | klys | language definition graphs? |
| 22:44.25 | klys | if you could turn a graph made of gui dialogs into a language, usability++. |
| 22:44.36 | RyanE | Can't remember the acronym soup. Something like UML. It's the syntax graph of a language. |
| 22:44.51 | RyanE | BNF |
| 22:44.51 | klys | well, uml wouldn't cut it |
| 22:44.52 | RyanE | duh |
| 22:45.19 | klys | idl? |
| 22:45.20 | levi | The specific ones I used are usually called "railroad diagrams" |
| 22:45.21 | RyanE | I was kind of kidding levi, he showed BNF of Lua... |
| 22:45.32 | RyanE | yep. |
| 22:45.40 | RyanE | brain fart... |
| 22:46.10 | youtah | I leave you guys alone for 30 minutes and the channel blows up.... |
| 22:46.14 | youtah | this is why we can't have nice things |
| 22:46.36 | RyanE | yeah, well vi is waaay better than emacs. :) |
| 22:46.52 | klys | is emacs-only |
| 22:47.11 | levi | They've fallen a bit out of favor since languages got a bit more complex than Pascal, but Lua is more simple than your typical language. |
| 22:47.28 | RyanE | levi: for which I'm grateful. |
| 22:47.36 | RyanE | (the simple part, not the falling out part) |
| 22:48.00 | levi | I was actually reminded of them by the JSON specification, though. |
| 22:48.02 | klys | the thing about creating a language, has to be what you do with the stack and registers at the beginning of functions. |
| 22:48.20 | levi | klys: Huh? |
| 22:48.58 | klys | the thing that separates your bison language definition from unity with the rest of the code |
| 22:49.39 | levi | I am still not quite following you. |
| 22:49.49 | klys | because, sure you can say things like this is a function or any data structure that will become part of the language... |
| 22:49.51 | levi | I mean, I understand the words, but not what you're trying to suggest with them. |
| 22:50.41 | klys | ...just all of those data structures have to be implemented in a format that will allow translation to assembly. |
| 22:52.04 | levi | Well, syntax diagrams denote syntax. You still need semantics and pragmatics. :P |
| 22:52.43 | klys | so transitioning from the basic idea of, yes, this forms a function and there is a set of things we know about it, to a function is now compatible with a second function, the difficulty is that you have a few things to do on the stack... |
| 22:53.09 | klys | ...which will allow those constraints to be met. |
| 22:53.40 | levi | The idea of a function is not tied to the concept of a stack, except that a stack is one possible way to implement function call records. |
| 22:54.11 | *** join/#utah nage (~nathan.ge@unaffiliated/nage) |
| 22:54.13 | klys | call and ret are limited to turing-complete devices which do implement stacks. |
| 22:55.23 | klys | and making them reentrant poses an even greater challenge to implementing the stack invocation. |
| 22:55.28 | *** join/#utah keldwud (~quassel@unaffiliated/keldwud) |
| 22:56.04 | levi | Again, you do not need stacks to implement functions, although it is a common optimization for today's hardware platforms. |
| 22:56.29 | klys | if a function is recursive, then how will you implement it without a stack |
| 22:56.56 | RyanE | data structures. |
| 22:57.02 | RyanE | registers |
| 22:57.27 | levi | Depends on the structure of the function. If the recursive call is in tail position, then it needs no extra storage per invocation. |
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| 22:57.39 | RyanE | I think you're looking for #programminglanguagedesign... :) |
| 22:57.54 | T4rku5 | the CFP for BSidesSLC closes tomorrow www.bsidesslc.org/CFP/ |
| 22:59.14 | levi | You can implement the lambda calculus entirely through textual rewrite rules. |
| 22:59.29 | RyanE | whoosh! I think that just went over my head. |
| 23:00.30 | keldwud | any other conferences I should be aware of other than bsides, and mountain west? |
| 23:01.21 | stderr- | keldwud: MWRC |
| 23:01.33 | keldwud | oh is that different than mountain west |
| 23:01.38 | klys | "mountain west regional conference" |
| 23:01.40 | stderr- | err |
| 23:01.42 | keldwud | I confused them as being the same |
| 23:01.44 | levi | The lambda calculus has two kinds of 'forms', abstractions and applications. And then it has some rules for valid re-writings of some compound forms into simpler ones that mean the same thing. |
| 23:01.47 | keldwud | ahh ok |
| 23:01.48 | keldwud | thanks |
| 23:01.49 | stderr- | my bad, no MWRC is the same, haha. |
| 23:02.04 | keldwud | mountain west ruby conference? |
| 23:02.06 | stderr- | keldwud: mountain west ruby conference. |
| 23:02.08 | keldwud | my head hurts |
| 23:02.17 | keldwud | muslim women resource center |
| 23:03.01 | levi | And the combination of the basic forms and the rewrite rules lets you express any computable function, in the exact same sense that a Turing machine can express any computable function. |
| 23:03.33 | levi | The rewrite rules say nothing about stacks. |
| 23:04.09 | levi | Therefore stacks are not an essential part of expressing functions; they're merely a commonly used implementation detail. |
| 23:04.17 | keldwud | I wonder if nowplayingutah.com would want to purchase slcguide.com from me |
| 23:04.40 | keldwud | yay? nay? |
| 23:04.50 | levi | And one which makes me very annoyed when people talk about C as a 'portable assembly language'. |
| 23:05.00 | klys | also, can you do it without self-modifying code |
| 23:06.13 | klys | I'm sorry, you mentioned that you are treating your functions as data. |
| 23:06.25 | levi | What? No I didn't. |
| 23:06.42 | levi | And 'functions as data' does not require self-modifying code, no. |
| 23:06.54 | T4rku5 | SaintCON |
| 23:06.59 | keldwud | yeah that's the one |
| 23:07.02 | keldwud | thanks, T4rku5 |
| 23:07.13 | klys | also, forms? what if you use those once. can you guarantee an implementation |
| 23:07.14 | keldwud | it was on the tip of my tongue but I just couldn't remember it |
| 23:07.21 | T4rku5 | Yeah, from UtahSaint |
| 23:07.39 | keldwud | when do we find out when the next one is? |
| 23:08.03 | T4rku5 | when they update the site |
| 23:08.05 | T4rku5 | it'll be this fall |
| 23:08.07 | keldwud | haha |
| 23:08.09 | keldwud | darn |
| 23:08.13 | keldwud | I'm trying to plan ahead damnit |
| 23:08.16 | levi | klys: I was talking about the Lambda Calculus. It's a formal system; you *could* implement it on a computer, but it exists as a formal system completely independent of any computer implementation. |
| 23:08.23 | T4rku5 | it was November last year, I think |
| 23:08.29 | T4rku5 | first week of November |
| 23:09.47 | klys | I can see you as far as the uk22 microkernel did not specifically provide an abstraction for "stacks." |
| 23:10.32 | levi | klys: We are completely talking past one another, I think. Take a step back from machines and operating systems. |
| 23:11.05 | keldwud | T4rku5: oh yeah, I was way off |
| 23:11.08 | klys | so I don't need an implementation |
| 23:12.00 | levi | Depends on what you're doing. |
| 23:12.29 | klys | it's structured programming with a "language," presumably. |
| 23:13.12 | levi | Running programs is not the only useful thing you can do with them. |
| 23:16.55 | Jayce | some of the saintcon folks are helping out with openwest this year |
| 23:17.00 | klys | I'm reading what you said earlier, semantics and pragmatics? semantics should be like, I can specify the order of operations implicitly in my sequence of tokens. pragmatics should be something like, when I specify a token in a related case, it is then read from the sequence defined pragmatically this way |
| 23:17.14 | Jayce | they will have information up at openwest about their next one hopefully |
| 23:17.54 | keldwud | oh cool |
| 23:17.57 | keldwud | that's good to know |
| 23:18.25 | klys | I may not understand just what you define them as, just, the idea that those are part of an implementation of structure among independently defined tokens. |
| 23:18.27 | keldwud | I get impatient sometimes when I want to plan ahead because I know if I don't plan it while I'm planning out the next few months or year, then I won't get around to it until last minute or a few days after the fact |
| 23:18.47 | levi | klys: Semantics gives "meaning" to some subset of syntactically well-formed programs as generated by the grammar. But there are a number of different ways to describe the semantics of a language. |
| 23:20.22 | levi | Denotational semantics, for example, maps programs to mathematical expressions. |
| 23:21.41 | levi | Operational semantics describes how valid terms in the language are transformed, step-by-step, by an evaluation procedure. |
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| 23:23.15 | klys | I think we're going with "procedural semantics" as that defines a sequence of valid tokens within a namespace as expressible. |
| 23:25.55 | klys | so operationally read, such an expression becomes first a reference to itself as its namespace, and second a group of tokens which may either become a series of steps or a macro. |
| 23:27.58 | levi | Actually, you should just read this: http://repository.readscheme.org/ftp/papers/ai-lab-pubs/AIM-443.pdf |
| 23:28.06 | klys | and denotationally read, keywords are assigned to basic relationships found among such an expression that make those tokens valid. |
| 23:30.38 | levi | I'm afraid what you're doing is not quite what programming language theorists do when they describe the semantics of a language. |
| 23:34.30 | klys | no, I'm not a teacheer |
| 23:34.58 | levi | Guy Steele was involved in the writing of specifications for Scheme, Common Lisp, and Java; he also wrote a definitive reference book for C. He knows what he's talking about. |
| 23:37.42 | levi | Anyway, my point is that one can talk meaningfully about programming languages and programs written in them *without any reference* to machine details like stacks. |
| 23:39.15 | levi | And the fact that it is reasonable to do so is behind many of the optimizations that compilers do behind the scenes to make code execute efficiently. |
| 23:43.30 | klys | you mean -fomit-frame-pointer I guess |
| 23:44.00 | levi | No. That's not what I mean. |
| 23:45.01 | levi | If we can talk about programs without referring to stacks, we certainly don't need to talk about -fomit-frame-pointer. |
| 23:46.12 | levi | To get more concrete, take a look at this page: http://rtsisyk.github.io/luafun/intro.html |
| 23:46.57 | klys | just, I would like to hear that it is part of the critical initial implemenation of such a language, rather than, that it is an optimization such a language enacts to make operation more efficient. |
| 23:48.09 | levi | Stacks are in no way required to implement programming languages. If you believe they are, you are taking too narrow a view of programming languages and what they *mean*. |
| 23:48.18 | klys | I can see that the reason for diagramming constructs is already a design goal. |
| 23:53.13 | levi | In that page, the expression sum(map(function(x) return x^2 end, take(100, tabulate(math.sin)))) was translated to a loop of 10 machine instructions. Where's the stack? |
| 23:53.27 | levi | There is no stack! |
| 23:53.33 | klys | the function call itself |
| 23:54.28 | levi | There are lots of functions involved, but there is no explicit recursion in that expression. |
| 23:54.46 | levi | There IS NO STACK. |
| 23:55.33 | klys | you have enough registers to simulate a (internal) "function" subset with jnb. |
| 23:56.44 | levi | No! The expression, although written in terms of functions, *means* the same thing as a normal loop. And so that's how it's compiled. |
| 23:57.34 | klys | loops get moar abnormal when you add surrounding loops and complexity, in which case you run out of registers. |
| 23:58.16 | levi | When you run out of registers, then you use *memory*. Registers are simply a hardware hack to give you a very small chunk of very fast memory. |
| 23:59.01 | klys | yes, the uk22 "region(s)" abstraction is what you would use to gain "memory" for it. |
