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| 02:42.36 | levi | jxqz: Yeah, no nested functions in C. Because C, for all its failings, does obey a nested scope discipline and it was easier to just now allow nested functions than to decide something reasonable to do about the lifetime of closed-over variables. |
| 02:42.51 | levi | s/just now/just not/ |
| 02:52.46 | levi | jxqz: Also, you never got the true answer to the .c/.h thing. |
| 02:53.45 | levi | The true answer is... single-pass compilers. The .h exists so you can include forward declarations of functions/variables that other compilation units need to link to. |
| 03:01.12 | jxqz | but is that a reasonable tradeoff? |
| 03:01.42 | jxqz | compiler simplicity instead of source simplicity? |
| 03:02.04 | jxqz | I don't think so, especially since C is so big |
| 03:02.40 | jnbek | actually C isn't really all that big, it's like a dozen keywords |
| 03:02.52 | jxqz | compilers get written very rarely compared to the source code written for them |
| 03:03.13 | jxqz | by big, I mean, universal |
| 03:03.34 | jxqz | so much code written in C |
| 03:03.44 | levi | jxqz: It certainly was a reasonable tradeoff when C was designed. |
| 03:04.04 | jxqz | levi: :-) |
| 03:04.25 | levi | It's ridiculous that we're still coding in C and using Unix today. Absolutely ridiculous. |
| 03:05.30 | jxqz | levi: it's ridiculous that there's nothing out there besides unix |
| 03:06.08 | levi | That's not true, just like it's not true that there's nothing besides C for low-level programming. |
| 03:06.33 | levi | It's just that the alternatives are all completely marginalized. |
| 03:06.42 | jxqz | what I mean by that is an alternative that can be universally installed on any random hardware |
| 03:07.30 | jxqz | open source+open standards ftw |
| 03:07.32 | levi | C'mon, x86-based PC are the most standardized, backward-compatible architecture that's ever been. |
| 03:07.43 | levi | They're pretty ridiculous, too. |
| 03:07.49 | jxqz | yeah |
| 03:08.12 | levi | Do you know what kind of silly hoops you have to jump through to get an x86 chip into a reasonable state for modern code? |
| 03:08.29 | jxqz | haha |
| 03:08.41 | jxqz | what about all those extensions and stuff? |
| 03:09.13 | jxqz | just 3d print your own lisp machine :) |
| 03:09.30 | levi | You don't have to use the extensions. |
| 03:10.54 | levi | You can't 3d print ASICs on a home 3d printer yet. :P |
| 03:27.55 | harleypig | Is there a way to determine in a init.d script whether we are booting up or someone has run a service start or restart? |
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| 03:30.18 | levi | Hmm. I'm not aware of one, but I don't know much beyond the basics of init.d scripts. |
| 03:32.05 | harleypig | Yeah, I'm having to take a refresher on system v (it's amazing how fast I've gotten used to systemd) |
| 03:32.45 | levi | I don't get all the hate for systemd. I think it's a nice system. |
| 03:33.18 | harleypig | So do I ... I suspect the hate is from people who don't like root level changes. |
| 03:33.37 | levi | That and people who hate the author due to hating pulseaudio. |
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| 03:34.00 | levi | He's an ass, but then so is Linus, and everyone loves him. :P |
| 03:34.15 | harleypig | I didn't know that. |
| 03:34.32 | harleypig | Yeah, but he's got a proven system ... |
| 03:34.39 | harleypig | I guess *shrug* |
| 03:35.00 | levi | Well, people are fickle, and politics are politics whether they're in government or open source. :) |
| 03:37.04 | levi | I think pulseaudio and systemd are just fine. Or they are now, anyway. |
| 03:38.08 | harleypig | true ... get enough people in a group, virtual or otherwise, and politics rears its ugly head. |
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| 04:00.38 | metacortex-lab | I know its a lot of last moment but we are doing a screening of "We Are Legion" (the documentary about Anonymouse) and having a Q&A with the director on Thursday at our Hacker Space. |
| 04:01.17 | metacortex-lab | His new film at Sundance this year is about Aaron Swartz so i figure a fair amount of people would be interested |
| 04:01.30 | metacortex-lab | http://www.meetup.com/theTransistor/events/161863252/ |
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| 04:50.30 | harleypig | I'm having this werid problem with iptables. I have two lines that start with -A limit_venet ... On bootup they fail when starting iptables. But once the system is booted, without making any changes, I can restart iptables and it loads just fine. venet *is* up at the time the iptables script is run--it's a virtual network interface for OpenVZ. any |
| 04:50.30 | harleypig | ideas? |
| 04:50.58 | harleypig | I cannot find anything in the logs other than either iptables failed, or 'line 43 failed' which is just the COMMIT line. |
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| 05:19.56 | levi | Sorry, no idea. |
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| 14:48.30 | klys | harleypig: when it works fine all your modules are loaded if I know. do lsmod before and after, and load the new/differing modules as the first part of your init script. |
| 14:49.13 | klys | ~slashdot |
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| 16:00.45 | *** topic/#utah is Utah related discussion including user groups | logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | See also ##lds | OpenWest Conference sometime 2014! openwest.org | https://fiber.google.com/cities/provo/ |
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| 16:42.12 | goozbach | harleypig: centos? |
| 16:42.19 | goozbach | using iptables-save and iptables-restore? |
| 16:44.13 | harleypig | centos and restore yes, but we have a templatized iptables file (some hardcoded interfaces that have to be discovered on bootup) so save is ignored. |
| 16:45.14 | harleypig | I did some heavy reading last night and I know the 'limit_venet' is just a chain name. |
| 16:45.43 | goozbach | is that chain being defined before being used? |
| 16:45.46 | goozbach | ie |
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| 16:45.54 | goozbach | iptables -N limit_venet |
| 16:45.58 | goozbach | before |
| 16:46.06 | goozbach | iptables -A limit_vnet ..... |
| 16:46.41 | harleypig | I'm not sure. there is no -N in the iptables file, however, once the system is fully booted restarting iptables works just fine. |
| 16:46.55 | harleypig | At the beginning of the iptables file is :limit_venet [0:0] |
| 16:47.10 | goozbach | hmmm |
| 16:47.30 | goozbach | try doing a flush |
| 16:47.41 | goozbach | and resetting iptables state to the default |
| 16:47.42 | harleypig | When? |
| 16:47.48 | goozbach | let system boot |
| 16:48.04 | goozbach | then remove all custom chains |
| 16:48.20 | goozbach | set all targets to accept on the stock chains |
| 16:48.21 | harleypig | iptables is in the default state ... the init iptables failed and didn't load the iptables file |
| 16:48.45 | goozbach | iptables -lv shows nothing but input output forward... |
| 16:48.47 | goozbach | ? |
| 16:49.00 | goozbach | try doing the iptables-restore manually |
| 16:49.07 | goozbach | the syntax from the init script |
| 16:49.48 | harleypig | On boot /etc/rc.d/init.d/iptables fails, once the system is booted, service iptables stop; service iptables start; and service iptables restart works fine. |
| 16:50.51 | harleypig | Also, manually calling /etc/rc.d/init.d/iptables works (I'm not sure if the differences matter, but I wanted to make sure). |
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| 16:51.26 | goozbach | if you do service iptables start right after boot has finished |
| 16:51.29 | goozbach | ie no restart |
| 16:51.35 | goozbach | no stop |
| 16:52.08 | harleypig | I put /etc/rc.d/init.d/iptables restart in rc.local and it loads just fine. |
| 16:52.46 | goozbach | it really does sound like a race condition with the iptables chain names |
| 16:54.08 | goozbach | that or a missing module |
| 16:54.21 | harleypig | friocorte? |
| 16:54.40 | harleypig | oops ... pressed wrong button, it's on its way to the friocorte address. |
| 16:54.51 | goozbach | derek@goozbach.com works too |
| 16:55.59 | harleypig | yeah, klys mentioned that too. I think I need to dump lsmod to a file in iptables start and see what differences there are. |
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| 17:30.31 | youtah | http://www.ydr.com/local/ci_24917174/outdoorsman-makes-final-journey-by-boat-instead-hearse |
| 17:35.40 | youtah | http://xkcd.com/1319/ via RegionSyx |
| 17:52.08 | youtah | smh http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-antivaccination-movement-20140120,0,5576371.story#axzz2r9PiWuCr |
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| 17:58.58 | youtah | Nachos for lunch today |
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| 18:08.29 | Migs | aw crap |
| 18:08.48 | Migs | the guy who's transcribing my music for dirt cheap is starting to wise up. He's asking for "slightly more money" now. |
| 18:11.04 | davido_ | There's always manila. |
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| 18:16.16 | Migs | He was nice about it, at least. "I'd like to ask for more if you're willing to pay more..." |
| 18:19.36 | Migs | he just barely graduated, so he's probably feeling like he's entitled to more, lol |
| 18:22.20 | T4rku5 | what kind of music is it he's transcribing? |
| 18:22.26 | T4rku5 | a recording of piano? |
| 18:22.32 | T4rku5 | or an instrument? |
| 18:22.38 | Migs | piano plus sometimes an extra instrument |
| 18:22.45 | T4rku5 | one instrument? |
| 18:22.50 | Migs | yes |
| 18:22.52 | T4rku5 | (in addition to the piano) |
| 18:22.58 | T4rku5 | audio? |
| 18:23.02 | Migs | haven't asked him to do more than that |
| 18:23.07 | T4rku5 | do you have any hints? like key? |
| 18:23.20 | Migs | I gave him MIDI files for the first two he did. He just finished the third, and I only had an MP3 of that one. |
| 18:23.33 | Migs | it had piano + flute |
| 18:23.40 | T4rku5 | *MIDI*????? and he is 'transcribing' it?? |
| 18:23.53 | T4rku5 | what's to transcribe?? |
| 18:23.56 | Migs | it wasn't a clean neatly-measured MIDI at all |
| 18:24.00 | Migs | it was a mess |
| 18:24.05 | T4rku5 | but all the notes were there |
| 18:24.08 | Migs | It was just an export I did from Reason |
| 18:24.14 | Migs | yeah, so it was easier for him to format into Finale |
| 18:24.24 | T4rku5 | oh |
| 18:24.25 | T4rku5 | my |
| 18:24.26 | T4rku5 | hell |
| 18:24.29 | Migs | yes, if you want to get technical I suppose it wasn't "transcribing." |
| 18:24.39 | T4rku5 | when I've transcribed stuff, it was with a CD, a piano, staff paper, and a pencil |
| 18:24.48 | Migs | Do you want to transcribe some stuff for me? |
| 18:25.19 | Migs | he got some notes pretty wrong on this latest transcription, too |
| 18:25.49 | Migs | but I'm paying him less than I pay my kids for their allowance... and I've consistently given him 200% payments as a "bonus" as well. |
| 18:26.16 | T4rku5 | if I had time I'd consider it |
| 18:26.48 | Migs | College students tend to be willing to work for cheap. |
| 18:28.13 | T4rku5 | here's one I've done |
| 18:28.14 | T4rku5 | http://d.pr/f/GKkh |
| 18:29.01 | T4rku5 | fun to play too |
| 18:30.07 | Migs | here's the latest one he did: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jy9qlrptrap0qsk/Justin%20K.%20Reeve%20-%20Away%20in%20a%20Manger.pdf |
| 18:30.10 | Migs | "For Piano and Fute" lulz |
| 18:30.36 | T4rku5 | uhh |
| 18:30.41 | Migs | he gave me the Finale files, so I'm going to fix it so it uses cutaway scores and collapses that stuff |
| 18:30.50 | Migs | so it's not just a bunch of empty rests |
| 18:32.03 | T4rku5 | sure |
| 18:32.29 | Migs | he wasn't quite sure how to do that, but I figured it out |
| 18:32.31 | Migs | and told him I could |
| 18:32.53 | T4rku5 | Interesting that you dont' have the flute playing the melody |
| 18:32.55 | Migs | I've been generally pleased with his work, I suppose. |
| 18:33.11 | Migs | yeah, the flute is more of a backup |
| 18:33.13 | T4rku5 | how much did he charge you to transcribe this? |
| 18:33.16 | Migs | it does have a cool part, though |
| 18:33.26 | Migs | he's revising his quote, so I'm not sure yet |
| 18:33.31 | T4rku5 | most flautists aren't used to being backup in a piano/flute arrangement |
| 18:33.37 | Migs | yeah, well tough luck |
| 18:33.40 | T4rku5 | but it's good for them :) |
| 18:33.47 | Migs | I'm the pianist, they can sit on the sideline for once |
| 18:33.48 | RyanE | yeah, gotta humble those fluts... :) |
| 18:33.59 | T4rku5 | They need more situations where they're reminded they're just a simple sine wave |
| 18:34.18 | Migs | here's the recording of the song: http://christmas.justinreeve.com/away-in-a-manger/ |
| 18:34.21 | Migs | the flute is kind of a cool part |
| 18:34.24 | Migs | hahaha yeah |
| 18:34.26 | T4rku5 | Flute = easily my least favorite instrument |
| 18:34.40 | Migs | it's not my favorite, but I seem to use it quite often for some reason. |
| 18:34.48 | Migs | Maybe because my wife is a flautist |
| 18:34.53 | T4rku5 | might be :) |
| 18:37.21 | Migs | this Snowfall song is cool |
| 18:38.01 | Migs | I haven't heard this in years |
| 18:55.33 | youtah | http://www.myabandonware.com/game/ |
| 18:55.45 | youtah | yeah.... wow. Memories |
| 18:57.09 | youtah | bmurdock, here was another game that I spent a TON of time playing... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVtYVyyX5NY |
| 18:58.08 | youtah | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVtYVyyX5NY&t=2m55s |
| 19:06.02 | jlp_znc | harleypig: to answer your question from last night about how to tell from an init script if you're booting or being run by a user, you ought to be able to follow up the ppids and see if there are any non-root ones (or login shells) near the top of the chain. you'll probably need /proc mounted, but if it's not, you can pretty much guarantee that you are booting. :-) |
| 19:06.46 | jlp_znc | in older systems, I'd say the script's ppid would be 1 during boot, but I don't know if newer OSes inject some additional layer in there. |
| 19:08.29 | bmurdock | youtah, shufflepuck!! we had that on the school computers in middle school |
| 19:08.32 | bmurdock | so awesome |
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| 19:22.24 | harleypig | jlp_znc: thanks, I'll see what I can get out of that |
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| 19:58.47 | youtah | Had one of the top dawgs at Vivint over to my house Monday night |
| 19:59.04 | youtah | We talked about his new wireless internet service. Pretty freaking cool. |
| 20:08.02 | youtah | http://i.imgur.com/0KSpQdv.jpg |
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| 20:36.49 | SunSparc | And then you tossed some molotov cocktails? |
| 20:37.26 | SunSparc | I have seen wireless internet before (eg Digis). |
| 20:37.58 | youtah | yeah, they're going a different route |
| 20:38.10 | SunSparc | Not overly impressed yet. What makes Vivints offering any better? Or is it just another contender in the same arena? |
| 20:38.39 | youtah | They're using 300Ghz from towers to a designated home, and then from that home 5Ghz to surrounding homes. |
| 20:38.54 | youtah | Just plug it in and throw it under your bed essentially, and you're set. |
| 20:39.03 | SunSparc | Hmm... |
| 20:39.03 | youtah | no more than 8 homes per connection. |
| 20:39.11 | SunSparc | Nans? |
| 20:39.34 | youtah | ? |
| 20:39.46 | SunSparc | Neighborhood Area Networks |
| 20:39.53 | youtah | ah, yes |
| 20:39.55 | youtah | essentially |
| 20:40.03 | youtah | and from tower to tower is fiber I believe |
| 20:40.18 | SunSparc | Interesting. |
| 20:40.24 | youtah | So no line of sight is required. No dishes |
| 20:40.42 | youtah | unless you're having serious connectivity issues, then they can come and install a dish for a better signal |
| 20:41.23 | youtah | like... walls with lead paint, lol |
| 20:41.25 | SunSparc | That would be interesting. The biggest downside to wireless usually is uptime (aka dropped connections). |
| 20:41.43 | SunSparc | Well, and speed. |
| 20:41.43 | jlp_znc | how annoying... their web site capitalizes each word in my e-mail address |
| 20:42.16 | SunSparc | I looked into signing up with them last year but my home was not in an available area yet. |
| 20:44.01 | youtah | It's available at my house, but I have Fiber for the $5 more (100Mbps up/down) |
| 20:44.10 | youtah | -the |
| 20:48.34 | youtah | Yeah, they charge $55 a month. I am paying $60 http://www.vivint.com/en/solutions/services/wireless-internet |
| 20:52.13 | RyanE | They don't seem to show their service area anywhere I can see. I don't want a callback, I just want to know if it's available in my area... |
| 20:53.32 | SunSparc | youtah: Vivint Fiber? Or another fiber provider with Vivint as the ISP? |
| 20:54.07 | youtah | SunSparc, no, I have Fiber through Veracity |
| 20:54.20 | youtah | both fiber and isp are Veracity |
| 20:54.28 | SunSparc | Ah. |
| 20:54.37 | SunSparc | wishes he had fiber |
| 20:55.02 | SunSparc | Utopia has been at the end of my street for several years. So close, yet so far. :( |
| 20:55.20 | RyanE | Yeah, nothing high-speed makes it up my way... :| |
| 20:55.35 | jlp_znc | no vivint in my area at this time |
| 20:55.57 | jlp_znc | I'm also about four blocks away from Utopia. I e-mail them about once a year. still no plan to finish building out in Murray |
| 20:56.19 | SunSparc | ~lart Utopia |
| 20:56.19 | infobot | shoves a crumpet down Utopia's throat, happy now?! Huh? Want some JAM with that? |
| 20:56.34 | jlp_znc | ~thanks |
| 20:56.34 | infobot | de nada, jlp_znc |
| 20:56.42 | jlp_znc | ~botsnack |
| 20:56.42 | infobot | jlp_znc: :) |
| 20:56.45 | SunSparc | ~karma Utopia |
| 20:56.45 | infobot | utopia has karma of 5 |
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| 21:35.53 | fadein | eightyeight: just read about d-note - this is the first time that I've been excited about a web application |
| 21:36.21 | eightyeight | heh. nice |
| 21:36.45 | eightyeight | i get excited about it, because it's loaded with tons of nerd |
| 21:36.48 | eightyeight | heh |
| 21:37.00 | fadein | I'll have to try it with my wife |
| 21:37.17 | fadein | sometimes I need to send her the passwords I keep to our online accounts |
| 21:37.23 | eightyeight | i've already used it with my wife to exchange new CC numbers an PINs |
| 21:37.30 | fadein | when she had linux I could just ssh in and pop an xmessage with the info |
| 21:38.01 | fadein | but that's exactly the sort of thing that I have in mind |
| 21:38.03 | eightyeight | nice. that works |
| 21:38.14 | fadein | though I'm sure I will find new uses |
| 21:38.41 | fadein | I'm not familiar with Flask --- do you forsee any reason why I wouldn't be able to stand d-note up on my Raspberry Pi? |
| 21:38.47 | eightyeight | i have themeing work to do now, but right now, i'm taking a break, while work and family take center stage for a bit |
| 21:39.10 | eightyeight | flask is pretty lightweight. i don't see it running on a pi, behind nginx, being a problem |
| 21:39.20 | fadein | sweet! |
| 21:39.59 | fadein | thank you sir, and keep up the good work! |
| 21:40.06 | eightyeight | np |
| 21:40.28 | fadein | eightyeight++ |
| 21:40.43 | jlp_znc | fadein: d-note? where can I find out more about this? |
| 21:40.50 | fadein | https://pthree.org/ |
| 21:40.55 | RyanE | https://pthree.org/2014/01/13/announcing-d-note-a-self-destructing-notes-application/ |
| 21:41.13 | jlp_znc | ahh, cool. googly searching for d-note is ... less than satisfactory |
| 21:41.31 | eightyeight | yeah. it's probably not the best google term to search for. heh. |
| 21:41.35 | eightyeight | should have thought about that |
| 21:41.37 | eightyeight | meh |
| 21:41.46 | RyanE | Google "d-note web app" I believe will return it as first... |
| 21:41.50 | RyanE | that's how I found it. |
| 21:41.53 | RyanE | from above |
| 22:05.18 | *** join/#utah jalbretsen (~jalbretse@sonic.itransact.com) |
| 22:32.37 | youtah | ~karma veracity |
| 22:32.37 | infobot | veracity has karma of -2 |
| 22:32.40 | youtah | lol |
| 22:32.59 | youtah | Those were probably from me, when they were taking forever to install |
| 22:34.32 | *** join/#utah dumby_PC (~dumby@204.246.140.162) |
| 22:37.20 | youtah | http://www.latimes.com/fashion/alltherage/la-ar-norwegian-olympic-team-adds-fashion-flair-to-curling-20140122,0,5053256.story#axzz2rAZnbLBK |
| 23:18.10 | jlp_znc | http://photojojo.com/store/awesomeness/cell-phone-lenses/ <- lenses that magnetically attach to your phone |
| 23:18.22 | youtah | https://twitter.com/andrey_butov/status/426018565561401344/photo/1 h/t Jayce^ |
| 23:18.51 | youtah | jlp_znc, Photojojo is who made my Nikkor Coffee Mug |
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