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| 02:19.54 | Q_Continuum | ~karma youtah |
| 02:19.54 | infobot | youtah has karma of 3 |
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| 02:21.12 | Tene | ~karma karma |
| 02:21.12 | infobot | karma has karma of 6 |
| 02:21.15 | Tene | ~karma tene |
| 02:21.15 | infobot | tene has karma of -1 |
| 02:21.18 | Tene | :( |
| 02:21.22 | Tene | ~karma :( |
| 02:21.22 | infobot | :( has karma of -1 |
| 02:21.27 | Tene | :(++ |
| 02:24.41 | smcquay | ~karma infobot |
| 02:24.41 | infobot | infobot has karma of 3 |
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| 02:45.43 | eightyeight | youtah: https://secure.flickr.com/photos/dwoww/9077296043/lightbox/ |
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| 03:16.54 | youtah | Awesome lightning shot eightyeight |
| 03:17.06 | youtah | Almost makes me with we had tornados in Utah |
| 03:17.09 | youtah | almost |
| 03:17.34 | Tene | We did, once. |
| 03:17.43 | youtah | ^ plural |
| 03:17.45 | youtah | ;-) |
| 03:18.02 | youtah | is just givin' ya a hard time Tene |
| 03:18.10 | youtah | yeah, there have been a few actually |
| 03:18.27 | Tene | I don't know what you mean. |
| 03:19.28 | youtah | I said "tornados" << plural, in reference to us having more than one |
| 03:19.32 | Tene | Ah. |
| 03:27.09 | Q_Continuum | TORNADOS AND DATACENTERS DO NOT MIX |
| 03:27.23 | Q_Continuum | Nor do microbursts |
| 03:27.32 | youtah | or sharks |
| 03:27.39 | youtah | or nachos |
| 03:27.51 | youtah | speaking of nachos... I have to pass 7-11 on my way home... Hmmmmm...... |
| 03:27.52 | Q_Continuum | dude |
| 03:28.02 | Q_Continuum | nachos mix with the NOC/desk area though |
| 03:28.13 | youtah | ALTHOUGH!!!! I have this awesome Black Bean and Corn salsa |
| 03:28.14 | Q_Continuum | well at least the non-DC area |
| 03:28.17 | Q_Continuum | ooooh |
| 03:28.30 | youtah | Smiths sells it. Freaking good. |
| 03:28.44 | youtah | not jsmith, krogers smiths |
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| 16:12.24 | youtah | 1.... 2.... 3.... meltdown http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2013/07/top-weiner-aide-trashes-intern.php ("strong" language) |
| 16:12.39 | youtah | lol, poor weiner aide |
| 16:14.22 | youtah | referencing the title |
| 16:14.46 | youtah | I would hate to have head weiner aide for my title |
| 16:17.30 | youtah | I am fairly certain they need more bacon and nachos in their campaign office. |
| 16:17.35 | youtah | it would make them all nicer |
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| 16:24.27 | youtah | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eJMweCjwgA&feature=youtu.be "Don't Park Like a Jerk" |
| 16:26.24 | youtah | http://www.nasa.gov/content/first-hint-of-sunrise-from-space/#.Ufk6oxekgyQ First hint of Sunrise from space |
| 16:26.49 | youtah | The crew see's about 16 sunrises and sunset's daily. |
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| 16:30.04 | youtah | http://mashable.com/2013/07/30/yacht-spoof/?utm_cid=mash-com-fb-main-link |
| 16:30.17 | youtah | "Students Fake GPS Signals to 'Hijack' $80 Million Yacht" |
| 16:30.20 | youtah | I'm done |
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| 16:38.19 | youtah | Today for lunch we have..... we have breakfast! |
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| 16:59.35 | youtah | the articles I have been seeing this morning and out of this world. Bizarre. You can't make some of this stuff up! |
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| 17:18.26 | Gate | "Weinerland" => snicker |
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| 17:29.03 | eightyeight | from errstr in another channel: https://speakerdeck.com/stevan_little/perl-the-detroit-of-scripting-languages |
| 17:31.15 | jxqz | oh fish, why haven't I been using you as long as I've known you? |
| 17:35.26 | keldwud | I like that title |
| 17:35.31 | keldwud | the detroit of scripting languages |
| 17:35.37 | keldwud | that's exactly how I feel about it, too |
| 17:35.44 | keldwud | also, php |
| 17:35.46 | keldwud | ;) |
| 17:35.55 | eightyeight | i heard about php once |
| 17:36.49 | jxqz | hm, no readline? |
| 17:37.05 | jxqz | lots of interactive typing stuff, but not history search for some reason |
| 17:37.14 | jxqz | fish: the ide of shells |
| 17:37.44 | eightyeight | and here, i thought you were referring to irc client-to-client crypto |
| 17:38.58 | youtah | eightyeight> from errstr in another channel: https://speakerdeck.com/stevan_little/perl-the-detroit-of-scripting-languages << OUCH!!! |
| 17:39.30 | jxqz | eightyeight: only you would have an irc setup so complicated as to need client peer crypto |
| 17:39.31 | youtah | fish huh? |
| 17:39.36 | jxqz | :) |
| 17:40.10 | youtah | Auto suggestsion |
| 17:40.15 | youtah | suggestions. awesome |
| 17:40.23 | eightyeight | irc is the only social network |
| 17:40.28 | youtah | ^^ |
| 17:41.11 | youtah | The only true social network. Close behind is twitter. But that's just because he's IRC's step child. |
| 17:41.50 | eightyeight | step child that never grows up |
| 17:41.56 | eightyeight | it has so much potential to be epic |
| 17:42.03 | youtah | If you were to have SMS, Micro blogging and IRC date each other, and they produced a love child, it would be twitter. |
| 17:42.27 | jxqz | identica |
| 17:42.27 | eightyeight | hahah |
| 17:42.31 | youtah | well, less SMS these days |
| 17:42.31 | jxqz | diasporia |
| 17:42.37 | keldwud | I thought usenet and BBSes were the only social networks? |
| 17:42.37 | eightyeight | i still sms via twitter |
| 17:42.41 | eightyeight | er, twitter via sms |
| 17:42.46 | keldwud | SPRITES! |
| 17:42.54 | eightyeight | eternel september |
| 17:42.57 | youtah | I remember back in the days, when they required you to give them your phone number, and there were no apps |
| 17:42.59 | jxqz | if you want to socialize with all 100 other people in the world willing to use them |
| 17:43.18 | keldwud | I remember when the sysop would actually call you on the phone and interview you before allowing you to login with your account! |
| 17:43.31 | jxqz | haha |
| 17:43.40 | keldwud | for real! :) |
| 17:43.46 | youtah | I call BS |
| 17:43.50 | youtah | show your cards |
| 17:43.52 | jxqz | BBS |
| 17:43.58 | keldwud | wat? you guys never got called by sysops to get onto a BBS? |
| 17:44.08 | youtah | Ah |
| 17:44.12 | youtah | I thought you meant Twitter |
| 17:44.34 | jxqz | we got our first computer in 1992 and got online with WWW |
| 17:44.58 | youtah | I should bring in our original Apple computer have had the Woz sign it |
| 17:45.23 | jxqz | 'will you anoint our shrine?' |
| 17:45.32 | youtah | LOL |
| 17:45.53 | youtah | http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm//wp-content/uploads/2012/08/1984macintosh.jpg << BOOM! |
| 17:48.58 | Gate | Can you imagine trying to draw anything that smooth with a mouse like that? |
| 17:50.06 | keldwud | Gate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oqUd8utr14 |
| 17:50.20 | keldwud | to be fair, that's a mouse for an Amiga and not an Apple computer |
| 17:50.21 | keldwud | but still |
| 17:50.56 | keldwud | just proof that it can be done :) |
| 17:55.17 | youtah | I learned what copy and paste was on that machine |
| 17:55.26 | youtah | I selected and copied a graphic of an apple |
| 17:55.43 | youtah | and there was a castle game I used to play on it |
| 17:56.27 | youtah | where you would adjust the angle of your canon and the amount of gun powder |
| 17:57.18 | keldwud | I played pirated games on my amiga. I used to love the cracktros |
| 17:58.17 | youtah | Dark Castle |
| 17:58.21 | youtah | remember that one? |
| 17:58.58 | keldwud | I don't :( |
| 17:59.53 | keldwud | I had, Lazer Chess, Flood (platformer puzzle), Crystal Hammer (BEST ARKANOID/BREAKOUT CLONE EVA! (also best composer Karsten Obarski, wrote the first tracker)), and umm... I can't remember the rest |
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| 18:00.17 | keldwud | We had an Amiga 2000 with two disk drives, so I had some spectacular games |
| 18:00.38 | keldwud | there was a tank one from Electronic Arts. It was "3d". |
| 18:01.15 | keldwud | and some weird game from psygnosis, had NPCs with "Artificial Intelligence" |
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| 18:15.46 | Gate | keldwud: except he took a picture of her then altered it. I was talking about creating aestheticly clean curves freehand |
| 18:15.57 | Gate | still an interesting video, though |
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| 18:16.42 | keldwud | Gate: yeah true :) it was the closest I could link in such a short time |
| 18:16.48 | keldwud | and still be relevant |
| 18:17.26 | keldwud | I linked my CEO to that perl slide. He and my $boss both use perl religiously. I can't wait to hear their reactions. haha |
| 18:17.33 | keldwud | hope it isn't "you're fired!" |
| 18:17.58 | keldwud | ahh, his response is "PHP is everything" |
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| 18:24.13 | youtah | <3's PHP and Perl |
| 18:26.25 | Gate | youtah: you poor, poor soul. |
| 18:27.00 | Gate | I am reminded of a conversation with one of my college professors who put it far better than I ever have |
| 18:27.07 | Migs | my friend just got married, and he posted this photo: http://img2u.info/ckgni/i/g475d5e5e.jpg |
| 18:27.15 | Gate | "PHP is the most wretched language to ever make it to popularity" |
| 18:27.55 | youtah | Migs, lol *face palm* the dinosaur was edited so poorly! |
| 18:28.04 | youtah | and it's been done before |
| 18:28.05 | Gate | Migs: time to photoshop out the bride and put her dress on the 'rex. Title it "Bridezilla" |
| 18:28.24 | youtah | and the lightning doesn't match |
| 18:28.26 | youtah | nor the white balance |
| 18:28.44 | youtah | is just being dumb now.... |
| 18:28.47 | Migs | youtah: That's the last time I share a funny Photoshopped photo with you |
| 18:28.54 | youtah | ;-) |
| 18:29.08 | Migs | you could've said "Congratulations to your friend"...but NOOOOOOOOO |
| 18:29.22 | youtah | lol |
| 18:29.25 | youtah | oh yeah, that too |
| 18:29.32 | Migs | although I don't know why you'd congratulate me as a proxy |
| 18:29.32 | Migs | doesn't make much sense |
| 18:29.37 | youtah | I had assumed they were eatne |
| 18:29.39 | youtah | eaten |
| 18:29.45 | Migs | ahahaha |
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| 18:35.36 | levi | Yo. |
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| 18:41.57 | levi | Heh, that perl slide deck... |
| 18:42.55 | levi | Perl is like Detroit that way, but it's also like the Wintel platform. |
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| 19:00.50 | rsimpkins | Migs, youtah - next time use Barney as the dino. That giant purple thing chacing after you would scare any wedding party. |
| 19:01.30 | rsimpkins | Humm. Okay brain. It is going to be one of 'those' days - huh? Well take this! *caffine* |
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| 19:02.10 | rsimpkins | It is not working. I apologize in advance for all the crazy things I might do in here today. |
| 19:10.18 | youtah | lol rsimpkins I am right there with ya |
| 19:10.27 | youtah | except I am drunk on amazing bacon |
| 19:10.52 | jsmith | mmmmmn... bacon |
| 19:11.00 | jsmith | That reminds me -- I haven't eaten my lunch yet |
| 19:11.05 | jsmith | wanders to the microwave |
| 19:12.10 | youtah | I love shell scripts. They make life so much easier |
| 19:14.25 | Gate | I would actually say that calling Perl a dead end is extremely unfair |
| 19:14.39 | Gate | Perl has heavily influenced two generations of languages |
| 19:15.10 | Gate | (at least) |
| 19:15.30 | youtah | the Sun runs off of Perl |
| 19:15.49 | Gate | http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/lisp.jpg |
| 19:19.07 | Migs | uh http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0XnzfRqkRxU&safe=active sfw, but possibly not sfl |
| 19:19.45 | Migs | maybe mildly nsfw. I don't know. |
| 19:21.07 | Gate | -_^ |
| 19:21.16 | Gate | backs slowly away from the link |
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| 19:22.01 | Migs | it's about 12 year-old girls getting their periods at summer camp |
| 19:22.21 | Gate | >.> |
| 19:22.30 | goozbach | really? |
| 19:22.35 | goozbach | somethign for this channel? |
| 19:22.49 | Migs | it's an ad for a product, actually |
| 19:22.57 | Migs | but I felt disturbed after watching it |
| 19:23.18 | goozbach | so you felt you should share it on an open source channel? |
| 19:23.51 | Migs | I thought it was still amusing enough to be shareworthy, yes |
| 19:24.06 | Migs | feel free to ignore the link |
| 19:27.34 | ldav15 | I can see his perspective on Perl 5. He can't "fix" anything or add features without risking breakage of their user base. Remember the perl 5.8 -> 5.10 transition anyone? |
| 19:28.23 | goozbach | not since the accident |
| 19:28.32 | youtah | Migs, I find myself in similar situations all the time. "Maybe I shouldn't have shared that..." |
| 19:38.06 | youtah | Today was breakfast for lunch at work day. |
| 19:38.09 | youtah | Which is amazing btw. |
| 19:38.09 | youtah | So, since this is my second lunch, does this mean it's technically my 3rd breakfast of the day? |
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| 19:45.38 | levi | Gate: Well, influencing other things and then failing to keep up is the way most dead-ends became so. |
| 19:46.46 | youtah | so you're calling Ada a loser? |
| 19:46.48 | youtah | ;-) |
| 19:46.55 | youtah | jumps behind the couch |
| 19:49.09 | levi | Ada actually kept up surprisingly well, considering its niche, but I wouldn't be opposed to calling it a dead end. |
| 19:50.01 | jxqz | remember D? |
| 19:50.31 | Migs | I regret nothing |
| 19:50.50 | levi | Sure, it's still a decent C++ alternative. |
| 19:51.10 | jxqz | C## |
| 19:51.43 | jxqz | C𝄪𝄪 |
| 19:52.07 | jxqz | (CU+1D12AU+1D12A) |
| 19:53.14 | Gate | You guys might enjoy this, I'm planning on having a ring engraved. On the inside, I plan on: (P&Q)⇏ (P→Q)∨(Q→P) |
| 19:53.15 | jxqz | C♯, C♭ |
| 19:53.27 | jxqz | hah |
| 19:53.37 | jxqz | an engraver tha does unicode? |
| 19:53.49 | Gate | jxqz: I hope so. |
| 19:53.58 | jxqz | 1st order logic |
| 19:54.03 | Gate | Having someone do it by hand would be *expensive* |
| 19:54.22 | jxqz | you should seal an envelope with that |
| 19:54.25 | levi | Something in my current terminal chain doesn't support unicode, so exactly what it says is not apparent, but I can guess. |
| 19:54.39 | Gate | On the outside I plan on: ⊕ on one poll and ⊻ on the other poll |
| 19:54.44 | Gate | s/poll/pole/ |
| 19:54.48 | Gate | s/poll/pole/g |
| 19:55.14 | Gate | P and Q does not imply that P implies Q or that Q implies P |
| 19:55.21 | Gate | IOW: Correlation does not imply causation |
| 19:55.34 | Gate | and the outside symbols are two alterates used for XOR |
| 19:55.35 | jxqz | levi: switch to teh linuxen |
| 19:55.57 | Gate | I get garbage when other people send unicode sometimes, so I'm not surprised |
| 19:55.59 | levi | jxqz: Yeah, all the computers involved are running linux. |
| 19:56.15 | jxqz | levi: yor linuxen are teh inferior |
| 19:56.20 | Gate | levi: c++ alternative: go |
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| 19:56.40 | jxqz | vb |
| 19:56.42 | Gate | C# is *not* in the same space |
| 19:56.47 | jxqz | .net |
| 19:56.53 | jxqz | tcl |
| 19:57.04 | jxqz | php |
| 19:57.11 | Gate | Unless you are using managed C++ in which I desperately pity you. |
| 19:57.12 | jxqz | cobol |
| 19:57.44 | levi | go is charmingly retro. |
| 19:58.15 | Gate | Yeah, I wish it had object orientation, but for a fast compiled language its far more modern than most |
| 19:58.39 | jxqz | why does it matter if the compile is explicit or not? |
| 19:58.50 | levi | Object orientation is not what I'd miss from it. |
| 19:59.06 | jxqz | object occidentation |
| 19:59.16 | levi | go is far more modern than C, far more sane than C++, but not really particularly modern. |
| 19:59.34 | Gate | jxqz: because of the cost of JIT startup times. One up-front compile and binary distribution is the niche I'm talking about |
| 19:59.54 | levi | JIT startup doesn't have to be that heavyweight. |
| 20:00.00 | levi | Take a look at LuaJIT. |
| 20:00.26 | levi | Mike Pall is some kind of freak of nature. |
| 20:00.30 | Gate | levi: Honestly my experience with it is limited, but what experience I had was positive. One of the few things I demand of my languages these days is first order functions, which C and C++ failed to have for most of their lifetimes. |
| 20:00.43 | jxqz | but binary distribution doesn't have to mean bewildering compiler and linker options |
| 20:00.56 | levi | C and C++ continue to fail to have them. |
| 20:01.04 | jxqz | what is that? |
| 20:01.07 | Gate | I was under the impression that C11 was adding them |
| 20:01.10 | levi | I gotta go to a meeting. |
| 20:01.15 | jxqz | oh sure |
| 20:01.17 | Gate | jxqz: first order functions |
| 20:01.21 | levi | Gate: C11 didn't add much. |
| 20:01.32 | levi | It added an explicit memory model, IIRC. |
| 20:02.44 | jxqz | functors? |
| 20:03.14 | jxqz | ~functor |
| 20:03.14 | infobot | functor is probably at http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/functor/ |
| 20:06.22 | Gate | who said functor? |
| 20:06.41 | Gate | I see function in my messages..... |
| 20:06.42 | jxqz | I |
| 20:07.06 | jxqz | functional |
| 20:07.12 | jxqz | functor, whatever |
| 20:07.45 | Gate | :) I tend to think and program in a rather functional way, so not having first order functions ties my hands more than I am generally willing to deal with |
| 20:12.54 | eightyeight | oh, how i despice yum(8) |
| 20:12.58 | eightyeight | ~lart yum |
| 20:12.58 | infobot | makes a balloon animal out of yum |
| 20:13.36 | romanovic | ~give yum spices back |
| 20:13.36 | infobot | ACTION gives spices back to yum |
| 20:15.26 | eightyeight | ~lart yum |
| 20:15.26 | infobot | whips out a sword and chops yum in half |
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| 20:19.11 | *** part/#utah vantastic (~vantastic@199.16.150.186) |
| 20:19.22 | Gate | Anyone have a digitalocean server? |
| 20:23.04 | jxqz | yes |
| 20:23.28 | Gate | Would you be willing to run a CURL command and tell me what the result is? |
| 20:23.33 | jxqz | sure |
| 20:23.43 | jxqz | CURL: command not found |
| 20:23.46 | jxqz | :) |
| 20:23.51 | Gate | :) |
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| 20:37.49 | Tene | curl is either "curl", or "cURL" historically, but never "CURL" |
| 20:38.10 | jxqz | ~Tene |
| 20:38.10 | infobot | i heard tene is Tenebram, or the king of pirate, or my god, or chocolate frosted sugar bombs, or a liar, or more winningish than goozbach, or evil, or the ML master. Attach ye dragon. Tene's superpower is The dough comes frozen |
| 20:38.36 | jxqz | ML master! |
| 20:39.34 | youtah | licks the NAND |
| 20:39.48 | Tene | Hmm. Apparently that capitalization is used in "PHP/CURL" |
| 20:40.03 | Tene | o_o |
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| 20:42.25 | rsimpkins | Weeeeee. |
| 20:44.19 | Gate | well excuse me. |
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| 21:00.12 | youtah | levi I was referring to Ada Lovelace, not the language.... ;-) |
| 21:01.07 | youtah | hey jlp_znc you going to go to this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zr7qKhG0vA |
| 21:01.39 | jlp_znc | I find it pretty unlikely |
| 21:21.04 | neybar_work | youtah: I'm psyched. Damian is usually quite entertaining to listen to. |
| 21:22.39 | youtah | http://i.imgur.com/1gq0phg.jpg |
| 21:24.45 | Migs | http://www.reddit.com/r/BipolarReddit/comments/1jfivx/want_to_date_bipolar_girl_please_advise/cbe7c3t |
| 21:38.10 | youtah | http://i.imgur.com/SW1PQmD.png |
| 21:58.44 | youtah | http://i.imgur.com/hYXNsDl.gif |
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| 22:04.43 | Gate | I don't care how relationship inexperienced you are, if a girl tells you she loves you on the first date: RUN |
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| 22:05.28 | levi | youtah: Well, Ada Lovelace is definitely dead. |
| 22:05.45 | Migs | you don't believe in love at first sight? |
| 22:05.48 | Migs | how unromantic |
| 22:07.26 | *** join/#utah utlemming (~ben@65-128-50-128.hlrn.qwest.net) |
| 22:07.39 | levi | Gate: I'm preparing materials for a presentation/class on functional programming. Although I've done a lot of functional programming (at least compared to the average programmer) I've been learning a lot of new things in the process. |
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| 22:16.40 | manithree | levi: Is that a PLUG presentation or something else you're preparing? |
| 22:18.31 | levi | manithree: It's planned for the programming language group meeting at The Transistor, which I'm trying to keep going. |
| 22:21.54 | levi | I've wanted to have something similar to PLUG but dealing with programming rather than OS/system software stuff for a long time. There are a bunch of language-specific groups of varying activity, but I'd like to have a group focused more generally on programming/software development/computer science topics. |
| 22:22.38 | levi | If anyone is interested, drop me a line and I'll make sure to keep you in the loop. |
| 22:22.40 | Gate | Migs: nope. I believe in lust at first sight, and lunacy. This is one or both. |
| 22:23.51 | Gate | levi: I haven't used a purely functional language in a while, but they hold a special place in my heart. What are you presenting on specifically? |
| 22:26.15 | levi | Well, I'm trying to limit it to fairly universal stuff, but the code is currently in Haskell. |
| 22:26.36 | Gate | Your definition of "dead end" and mine are very different |
| 22:26.46 | Gate | gah, window was scrolled up. |
| 22:27.24 | Gate | awesome. I learned functional programming in SML/NJ |
| 22:27.51 | Gate | Still haven't had taken the chance to play in haskell land |
| 22:28.25 | levi | I've been reading through CMU's intro to functional programming course materials, which are in SML. Pretty good stuff. |
| 22:29.00 | levi | The ML module system is starting to make sense to me now. |
| 22:30.07 | levi | Haskell and ML really have a lot in common, but the Haskell community seems much more vibrant. |
| 22:31.15 | levi | To satisfy my own curiosity, I have been tracing the development of ideas in the functional programming space back through time. It's fascinating stuff. |
| 22:31.31 | Gate | Makes sense, Haskell is newer, from what I understand and built with the goal of a modern general purpose functional language |
| 22:33.13 | Gate | Interestingly some of the earliest work in programming language theory was functional. |
| 22:33.30 | levi | Haskell is a little newer, but not as much as you might think. |
| 22:33.59 | Gate | heh, I didn't realize it dated back to '90 |
| 22:34.03 | levi | It has been around for a long time, and it developed mainly as a 'free' clone of Miranda. |
| 22:34.38 | Gate | I haven't taken the time to play with it, primarily because I am irked by the "pure" approach to paradigms for practical languages |
| 22:34.57 | levi | Miranda and the ML family both trace their lineage back to Landin and his 'The Next 700 Programming Languages' paper. |
| 22:35.48 | levi | I was kind of irked by that about Haskell, but it turns out that it's actually easier to experiment with different paradigms in Haskell than with many other languages. |
| 22:37.54 | Gate | :) I once wrote a prolog interpreter in SML |
| 22:38.04 | Gate | that was a *fun* assignment |
| 22:38.35 | levi | Yeah, I'll bet! |
| 22:39.21 | Gate | There are just some tasks for which functional programming/lambda calculus is severely ill-fitted. Such as dealing with IO streams. |
| 22:39.25 | levi | If you're familiar with the 'Little Schemer' book, there are a couple of follow-ups, the 'Seasoned Schemer' and the 'Reasoned Schemer'. 'Reasoned' develops a prolog-like system called mini-Kanren. |
| 22:40.02 | levi | Haskell, on the other hand, is actually very well-suited for dealing with IO streams. |
| 22:40.35 | levi | I watched a presentation the other day on 'generalized stream fusion' for data-parallel optimizations in Haskell. |
| 22:41.35 | Tene | Yeah, that was a nice paper. |
| 22:42.02 | levi | Their matrix routines, expressed at a very high-level with standard combinators, compiled to code that, while not best-of-breed yet, was very competitive. |
| 22:43.32 | levi | The cool thing was, GHC already had enough of the right kind of optimizations built in already that most of their work was in building the right high-level structures and doing extremely low-level enabling of vectorizing intrinsics. |
| 22:45.10 | levi | Now, this is not stuff that's specific to Haskell; it could easily be implemented in ML or whatever, but Haskell's purity did not impede it at all. |
| 22:46.06 | levi | So... |
| 22:46.50 | levi | Early on in the development of programming language theory, Christopher Strachey and Dana Scott did a lot of work on developing mathematical models for describing the semantics of programming languages. |
| 22:48.40 | levi | If you develop the right model, the meaning of computer programs in *any* language can be expressed in a purely mathematical way. |
| 22:50.02 | levi | However, the correspondence between the semantic model of a language, or how its syntax maps to the math, tends to be highly complex for typical languages. |
| 22:52.52 | levi | So a lot of people started working towards languages in which you were able to program much more closely to a tractable semantic model rather than a machine-based semantic model. |
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| 22:57.34 | Gate | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:57.47 | levi | Anyway, working programmers remained largely in the space of imperative languages, so computer scientists kept working on nicer ways to express the semantics of those languages. At some point, a guy named Eugenio Moggi discovered that a mathematical structure from category theory, namely the monad, proved to be a useful tool in modeling how computations worked in programming languages. |
| 22:59.59 | levi | His paper introduced a compositional approach, where you could separately model the non-functional aspects of computation using the same basic kind of structure. |
| 23:02.18 | levi | This allowed you to consider things like partiality, non-determinism, side-effects, exceptions, continuations, and I/O separately but in a consistent way, and end up with a coherent model of the overall language semantics. |
| 23:05.31 | levi | Meanwhile Haskell was awkwardly trying to come up with a way to make useful interactive programs, and mostly failing. |
| 23:08.56 | jxqz | heh |
| 23:10.09 | levi | Philip Wadler came across the work of Moggi and a guy named Spivey, who around the same time as Moggi proposed using Monads to model exceptions in functional programs. It apparently gelled with something he'd been thinking about before, and inspired him to promote their use in structuring functional programs more generally. |
| 23:10.34 | levi | So that's how Haskell got its monads. |
| 23:10.52 | Gate | lol |
| 23:11.46 | rsimpkins | levi: Sounds like the plot to a Winnie the Pooh story. |
| 23:12.46 | levi | Due to Haskell's highly mathematical nature (laziness allows you to substitute 'equals for equals' more freely than in strict languages) it was natural to use monads to structure the idea of computation separately from the idea of value, following the same lines as Moggi used in his earlier semantics models. |
| 23:12.53 | jxqz | winnie the pooh got pwn3d by disn3y, can anything good ever come of it again? |
| 23:13.37 | ldav15 | Only through the PLF. |
| 23:14.35 | levi | Because Haskell gives a bit of syntactic sugar for monads, it's very easy to use them, and thus you can build precisely the semantic interpretation of your computations that you would like, just like you can precisely build the data model that you would like via algebraic data types. |
| 23:16.35 | levi | Anyway, I don't plan on saying anything about monads in my intro to functional programming. |
| 23:19.58 | levi | For those who are interested, the paper 'The essense of functional programming' by Philip Wadler is a nice introduction aimed at those entirely unfamiliar with monads and category theory. |
| 23:20.12 | rsimpkins | levi: When does your book come out? |
| 23:20.29 | levi | I'm not writing a book! |
| 23:20.46 | rsimpkins | levi: I think you already did. |
| 23:21.22 | levi | That's not even enough to fill a magazine column. ;) |
| 23:21.25 | rsimpkins | cat #utah.log | grep levi | mail -s "my new new book" mybublisher@famousebookseller.com |
| 23:25.26 | joshh | heh |
| 23:27.52 | levi | I could also go on at length about recursion schemes, the universality and fusion laws of 'fold', and fusion/deforestation operations on programs. |
| 23:30.51 | levi | Also, the deep foundational connections between mathematics, logic, and computation, and how they manifest in programming languages. Though I have only scratched the surface here, myself. |
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| 23:58.58 | jxqz | ah |
| 23:59.06 | jxqz | monoid is not monad |
