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| 16:03.55 | jlp_znc | awwww |
| 16:04.20 | jlp_znc | I finally get back into the office and find that there was a netsplit this morning |
| 16:04.36 | jlp_znc | or actually friday morning. |
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| 16:53.24 | rsimpkins | unum: Cool idea about the ad targeting game. I don't think Adobe would really care - but I am sure most marketing people will. |
| 16:54.54 | rsimpkins | unum: "I like to imagine in the future targeted advertising becomes a targeted choice for both advertisers and users" < nail on the head. :) |
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| 17:18.34 | goozbach | anyone using request tracker? |
| 17:18.58 | goozbach | fozzmoo mayhaps |
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| 17:37.32 | eightyeight | RT? |
| 17:37.42 | eightyeight | we use it |
| 17:38.41 | goozbach | Installed it lately |
| 17:38.44 | goozbach | it's been a long while |
| 17:38.55 | goozbach | and I'm trying to get it deployed to OpenShift |
| 17:38.58 | goozbach | I'm close'ish |
| 17:39.21 | goozbach | s/Installed it lately/Installed it lately?/ |
| 17:39.40 | goozbach | just wondering if there's any gotchas I need to look out for |
| 17:39.46 | eightyeight | no. i haven't installed it in a long while. heh. |
| 17:40.21 | goozbach | in other news openshift is pretty awesome |
| 17:40.31 | goozbach | deployed open web analitics in like 25min |
| 17:41.28 | eightyeight | how does it compare to salt-cloud? |
| 17:46.18 | goozbach | like oranges to apples? |
| 17:46.43 | goozbach | salt-cloud is a provisioning system IIRC, OpenShift is a PaaS |
| 17:50.41 | youtah | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Uz1icjwrM |
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| 18:04.18 | youtah | Okay, I apologize for posting that link. This should make up for it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa9KcZ_EWwY |
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| 18:18.33 | youtah | Posted my lightning photos. https://plus.google.com/photos/117588839385073341602/albums/5898128371564653281 |
| 18:25.45 | Migs | those don't suck |
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| 18:36.27 | eightyeight | youtah: how did you catch the photos? |
| 18:39.09 | unum | http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/07/the_office_of_t.html <- official explanation of programs the snowden publicized |
| 18:45.50 | youtah | eightyeight, with a mason jar and a butterfly net |
| 18:45.59 | youtah | ;-) |
| 18:46.10 | youtah | Half bulb, half lightning trigger |
| 18:47.01 | eightyeight | ok. curious if you had a lightning trigger. aren't those pricey? |
| 18:48.51 | eightyeight | hmm. guess not too bad. |
| 18:49.04 | jsmith | youtah: Did you see my photos from Gettysburg? |
| 18:52.15 | eightyeight | unum: also https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130708/01453123733/anyone-brushing-off-nsa-surveillance-because-its-just-metadata-doesnt-know-what-metadata-is.shtml |
| 18:54.33 | unum | eightyeight: that article all seems to be about having location data |
| 18:54.56 | eightyeight | it's used as an example of what metadata can reveal |
| 18:55.17 | eightyeight | after all, everyone has a mobile phone |
| 18:55.21 | Q_Continuum | 'Now, by metadata, in this context, I mean data that describes the phone calls, such as the telephone number making the call, the telephone number dialed, the data and time the call was made and the length of the call.' What does he mean by 'the data' in the middle (right after 'telephone number dialed,')? |
| 18:55.52 | fungus | Q_Continuum, it's a typo. He meant "date" |
| 18:55.53 | Q_Continuum | They like to redefine words and phrases, so everything is fair game when disecting their words. |
| 18:56.00 | eightyeight | Q_Continuum: typo |
| 18:56.02 | unum | eightyeight: but according to the "official" explanation they're not collecting location data |
| 18:56.02 | Q_Continuum | k |
| 18:56.15 | unum | weather or not you believe that is up to you |
| 18:56.32 | unum | but it's a different argument |
| 18:56.33 | Q_Continuum | That would be part of the 'metadata'; the carrier most definitely logs that (for a time at least) |
| 18:56.35 | fungus | unum, another typo. "whether" |
| 18:56.39 | fungus | :) |
| 18:56.42 | keldwud | "we're not collecting location data, therefore what we are doing is completely acceptable" |
| 18:56.46 | eightyeight | unum: this isn't saying what is and what is not being collected. it's merely describing 'metadata', and what it can reveal |
| 18:56.47 | keldwud | "because there is no location data" |
| 18:56.51 | eightyeight | not that the NSA is collecting this specific data |
| 18:57.05 | eightyeight | (although i think it's safe to assume they are) |
| 18:57.42 | youtah | eightyeight, I bought my patchmaster for $130 about two years ago. They have a much nicer, newer one, for about the same price. They work very well. |
| 18:57.48 | unum | it's showing what you can do with *specific* metadata, specific data they are claiming they don't have |
| 18:57.51 | youtah | jsmith, no I did not. Link? |
| 18:57.59 | jsmith | youtah: http://www.flickr.com/photos/websmith/sets/72157634522315850/ |
| 18:58.13 | jsmith | youtah: I haven't gone through all of my shots yet -- those were just a few highlights I posted quickly |
| 18:58.37 | eightyeight | unum: i don't understand what you're saying |
| 18:58.43 | keldwud | this computer I have right here? you don't have to worry about it at all, because it *can't* shoot you with a gun, therefore you don't need to worry about the other capabilities at all. |
| 18:58.43 | keldwud | ;) |
| 18:59.38 | youtah | HOLY PANO!!! |
| 18:59.59 | youtah | jsmith, you shoot that pano vertically and then stitch, or were you shooting horizontally (landscape)? |
| 19:00.04 | jsmith | youtah: You like? |
| 19:00.22 | youtah | I do. It gives great perspective |
| 19:01.13 | youtah | jsmith, it's weird and morbid that it's now considered a form of entertainment, where as, at that very spot, people literally feared for (and lost) their life, fighting there. |
| 19:02.01 | jsmith | youtah: Shot portrait and stitched |
| 19:02.31 | unum | eightyeight: I'm trying to say "metadata" can mean a lot of different things |
| 19:02.53 | eightyeight | ok. we agree there. |
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| 19:07.17 | Q_Continuum | "I want to make perfectly clear we do not collect cellphone location information under this program, either GPS information or cell site tower information." Key words: "under this program" - so they have a seperate one that grabs that, and then they can correlate it? |
| 19:09.32 | unum | seems like that would be unessicary |
| 19:09.54 | unum | if they are grabbing location data, why not just grab everything else.... |
| 19:10.56 | eightyeight | different databases |
| 19:11.00 | Q_Continuum | Because then they can say with a straight face "under this program" |
| 19:11.01 | unum | I guess they could be grabbing location at 5 minute intervals, and may want to know where they were when they made a phone call |
| 19:11.15 | unum | but we already know they do that |
| 19:11.45 | unum | (grab location at certain intervals) |
| 19:12.23 | unum | and by "they" I mean government |
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| 19:25.02 | rsimpkins | unum: Thanks for posting that link. It drives me crazy reading it. Sounds like a big, dysfunctional organization with layers of policy they call "protection." |
| 19:25.24 | rsimpkins | I have to say I think his statements only back up what Snowden has said. The only thing stopping the NSA from doing X is policy. |
| 19:25.48 | rsimpkins | I agree that isn't how it should be. |
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| 19:26.39 | ldav15 | office365-- |
| 19:26.47 | ldav15 | karma office365 |
| 19:27.18 | fungus | ~karma ldav15 |
| 19:27.18 | infobot | ldav15 has neutral karma |
| 19:27.26 | ldav15 | thanks |
| 19:27.34 | ldav15 | ~karma office365 |
| 19:27.34 | infobot | office365 has neutral karma |
| 19:31.30 | Heartsbane | ~office365-- |
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| 19:31.46 | Heartsbane | ~karma office365 |
| 19:31.46 | infobot | office365 has karma of -1 |
| 19:31.54 | Heartsbane | Problem solved |
| 19:32.06 | ldav15 | Thanks again |
| 19:32.58 | ldav15 | ~office365-- |
| 19:33.11 | ldav15 | ~karma office365 |
| 19:33.11 | infobot | office365 has karma of -2 |
| 19:35.02 | ldav15 | Office 365 found a distributed web based way of reinventing the old Windoze malaise of being unable to delete a file because Windoze thinks it's locked. |
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| 19:35.15 | *** mode/#utah [+v eightyeight] by ChanServ |
| 19:36.40 | ldav15 | only in this instance it's Office 365 instead of Windoze itself. |
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| 19:38.25 | spangborn | Okay, I love XMission's stance of these stupid warrantless subpoenas. |
| 19:38.33 | spangborn | s/of/on/ |
| 19:39.12 | spangborn | ~xmission++ |
| 19:39.58 | youtah | Link? |
| 19:40.03 | youtah | Link Me! |
| 19:40.14 | spangborn | http://reddit.com/u/pashdown |
| 19:40.15 | spangborn | ;p |
| 19:41.53 | youtah | http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/56544384-90/administrative-ashdown-attorney-barlow.html.csp |
| 19:42.15 | spangborn | I'm on my iPad, and was too lazy to send URL from my work machine to iPad. |
| 19:42.16 | spangborn | ;p |
| 19:43.45 | youtah | I'm curious as to how long XMission is required/expected to retain records/logs of all activity. I imagine that would require quite the overhead. |
| 19:44.48 | spangborn | That's almost the perfect thing to put in a Reddit comment. ;p |
| 19:45.00 | spangborn | Just needs some sort of a pun, and a link to a cat photo. |
| 19:45.32 | youtah | lol |
| 19:45.52 | skrike | ashdown was on x96 the other morning talking about this. Love him. |
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| 19:46.21 | spangborn | *ahem* pashdown |
| 19:47.00 | skrike | pashdown = patdown from a drunk irish TSA worker. |
| 19:47.16 | keldwud | skrike++ |
| 19:47.29 | spangborn | Seriously though, I wish I had Utopia so I could give XMission my money. |
| 19:47.45 | spangborn | C'mon West Jordan! |
| 19:49.47 | skrike | ugh yeah. I need to figure out who Im going with after I move to draper. Comcast-- |
| 19:50.09 | unum | ya moving from murray to draper was a sad day for me in some ways |
| 19:50.19 | skrike | Who do you go with? |
| 19:50.38 | spangborn | I've got Comcast, unfortunately. |
| 19:50.39 | unum | comcast :( |
| 19:50.48 | spangborn | C-Link didn't have sufficient speeds in my area. |
| 19:50.48 | skrike | are there any other options? |
| 19:51.09 | spangborn | Uh, maybe Clearwire? |
| 19:51.22 | spangborn | Honestly, Comcast is (unfortunately) your best option. |
| 19:51.51 | spangborn | If you're moving to Draper, why not head further south (Provo)? |
| 19:51.53 | spangborn | ;p |
| 19:52.17 | skrike | because I have a beard. I think they have a checkpoint for those at the point of the mountain. |
| 19:52.39 | fungus | lol |
| 19:52.59 | jima | shalkie: you're ok as long as you don't leave the freeway |
| 19:53.10 | jima | (from one beardo to another) |
| 19:53.22 | jima | oops |
| 19:53.25 | skrike | heh. |
| 19:53.25 | jima | skrike: ^ |
| 19:53.35 | Q_Continuum | skrike: Wait, not letting those with past, or only letting those with past? |
| 19:53.47 | jima | Q_Continuum: ...you must be new here. |
| 19:53.51 | spangborn | IIRC, Brigham Young had an epic beard. |
| 19:53.52 | jima | oh, right! you are. |
| 19:54.35 | skrike | yeah. Brigham Young had a whiskey distillery too. Let me know when Monson gets one of those. |
| 19:54.42 | spangborn | Haha. |
| 19:57.09 | skrike | that would be amazing. |
| 19:58.28 | skrike | so is century link no good? |
| 19:58.57 | spangborn | They don't usually have as high of speeds as Comcast. |
| 19:59.28 | spangborn | I could be wrong in some cases, though. I heard they're starting to do fiber in some areas? |
| 20:00.09 | skrike | according to the site its 12 down. |
| 20:00.24 | spangborn | Eh, that's not awful, but not great. |
| 20:00.41 | spangborn | I think their normal connections are DSL |
| 20:01.04 | skrike | as opposed to fiber? |
| 20:01.15 | spangborn | Or cable. |
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| 20:02.12 | spangborn | Lawl. |
| 20:02.16 | skrike | Ive always either had fiber or dsl. And Ive heard infinity++ stories about comcast being the worst, especially for those of us with a piratical streak to their download history. *coughtorrentscough* |
| 20:02.30 | spangborn | Removing phone from the cart for me brings my pricing up to $166/mo |
| 20:03.37 | skrike | its letting me do internet only at 12mbps down for 29.95 a month |
| 20:03.42 | spangborn | Ouch. |
| 20:03.55 | skrike | is that bad? |
| 20:03.55 | spangborn | Oh, their calculator is buggy. |
| 20:04.06 | spangborn | I'm actually at $35/mo for 40/20 |
| 20:04.15 | skrike | Ive had fiber as part of my HOA for the past 5 years so I havent looked at the market in forever. |
| 20:04.31 | spangborn | It's not awful, but I doubt you'll get anywhere near that speed. |
| 20:04.56 | spangborn | I pay for the 20/8(?) from Comcrap and it's $45/mo |
| 20:05.07 | spangborn | But they keep raising rates on it anyway. |
| 20:05.21 | spangborn | I miss having 35/35 for $35/mo :( |
| 20:05.47 | spangborn | But I don't miss all the other garbage that came with that apartment complex. |
| 20:06.12 | skrike | nice. |
| 20:06.40 | spangborn | True story: someone firebombed a car outside that complex |
| 20:07.03 | skrike | False story: it was me. |
| 20:07.06 | spangborn | Haha. |
| 20:07.30 | skrike | #ouroboros |
| 20:13.01 | Migs | lol https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7614315264/hF516EC7D/ |
| 20:15.21 | eightyeight | ... |
| 20:16.54 | Q_Continuum | Well...just rebooted the oldest SAN in our local rack. Both controllers were last booted on July 14th, 2009, until today. Here's hoping it comes back up. |
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| 20:18.44 | fungus | bummer, should have waited 6 days and made it an even 4 years. |
| 20:19.24 | Q_Continuum | Meh. Gotta get started on 4 firmware updates to bring it current. |
| 20:19.33 | Q_Continuum | Its one update behind the oldest supported. |
| 20:19.42 | Q_Continuum | (We thought about waiting the 6 days, but decided against it) |
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| 20:20.46 | goozbach | good luck |
| 20:21.23 | Q_Continuum | First controller has rebooted. |
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| 20:37.32 | keldwud | I've a perl question if anybody wants to help me |
| 20:38.00 | jsmith | keldwud: Just shout it out -- no need to ask permission to ask a question |
| 20:38.09 | jsmith | keldwud: If someone knows the answer, they'll answer |
| 20:38.14 | keldwud | jsmith: good point. sorry about that. I turned into "that guy" :) |
| 20:38.16 | jsmith | keldwud: Otherwise, everyone will be quiet :-p |
| 20:38.42 | keldwud | I'm just trying to figure out how to phrase it |
| 20:39.12 | *** join/#utah VanHelsing (~vanhelsin@97-126-217-231.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 20:39.19 | keldwud | I've a perl script that needs a path in order to work. Right now, I am using shift so I can just feed it from the command line |
| 20:39.32 | jlp_znc | and then don't leave the channel if you don't get an answer right away like "that guy" does :-) |
| 20:39.37 | keldwud | now I'd like to step that up a bit so that I can feed it multiple paths |
| 20:39.51 | keldwud | jlp_znc: oh I don't think I'm going anywhere any time soon :) |
| 20:39.56 | goozbach | loop over @argv? |
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| 20:40.45 | goozbach | http://tech.reboot.pro/showthread.php?tid=861 |
| 20:40.50 | goozbach | keldwud: ^^ |
| 20:40.57 | goozbach | didn't test it but it looks right'ish |
| 20:41.29 | keldwud | I've yeah I was thinking of looping over @argv actually |
| 20:41.49 | jlp_znc | loop on shift: while (defined(my $foo = shift)) { do something with foo; } |
| 20:41.53 | keldwud | so far, I had foreach my $path (@argv) { } |
| 20:42.05 | goozbach | been a long time since i've perled |
| 20:42.15 | keldwud | so would it be better to loop argv opr shift? |
| 20:42.21 | keldwud | s/opr/or |
| 20:42.35 | jlp_znc | depends... do you want the paths to still be in @ARGV when you're done? |
| 20:42.56 | jlp_znc | nothing wrong with your foreach, either |
| 20:43.30 | rsimpkins | Doh! http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/08/canada-train-idUSL1N0FE15120130708 |
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| 20:43.48 | keldwud | hmm, yeah, I do need to keep track of the results that each path provides |
| 20:43.56 | rsimpkins | helpful tip - if you design a system that requires something explosive to always work - or people die - um... don't design it that way. |
| 20:44.12 | keldwud | rsimpkins: you mean like automobiles? |
| 20:44.14 | keldwud | ;) |
| 20:44.42 | rsimpkins | keldwud: Imagine if in order to park your car you had to leave the engine running. |
| 20:44.57 | rsimpkins | If your breaks _required_ the engine to be running all the time to work. |
| 20:45.00 | keldwud | so if I needed to "remember" which results were associated with which path, would I still need the path in @argv? or I could just pass it somewhere else, couldn't I? |
| 20:45.36 | goozbach | keldwud: Id clone it into a hash and store data with the item |
| 20:46.17 | keldwud | goozbach: but that would require more than my extremely novice level of programming knowledge :) |
| 20:46.43 | keldwud | that was a helpful link, btw, goozbach, thank you |
| 20:46.52 | pashdown | youtah, our log retention is based on diagnostic and customer needs, not any dictate from government (thankfully) |
| 20:47.48 | jlp_znc | what goozbach said: inside your loop, $save{$foo} = "whatever you wanted to save"; |
| 20:48.07 | jlp_znc | as long as you don't ever have two of the same $foo values, that will work fine |
| 20:48.16 | jlp_znc | you're the only one who knows what your data looks like :-) |
| 20:55.38 | keldwud | how to print variable inside a string of text in perl? will the following work? $world = "World"; print "Hello $World"; |
| 20:55.47 | keldwud | s/$World/$world |
| 20:56.00 | jlp_znc | yes, after your s/// |
| 20:56.15 | jlp_znc | but not if you used single quotes instead of double quotes |
| 20:56.25 | keldwud | ahh, good to know that distinction |
| 20:56.36 | keldwud | if I used single quotes? is there a way to embed variables? |
| 20:56.57 | jlp_znc | i.e. print "Hello $world\n" does what you expect. print 'Hello $world\n' prints Hello $world\n (with literal \n, not a real newline character) |
| 20:57.04 | keldwud | I know in c# I use {0}, {1}, etc and then outside the quotes I define which variables those are after a comma |
| 20:57.14 | jlp_znc | if you use single quotes, no interpolation is done except for \' |
| 20:57.23 | jlp_znc | (and \\) |
| 20:57.44 | jlp_znc | if you use double quotes, variables and \? tags are interpolated in place |
| 20:58.27 | jlp_znc | in perl, like in C, you would do something like that with printf instead of print: printf "hello %s\n", "world"; |
| 20:58.49 | *** join/#utah mahelious (~mahelious@ip65-46-60-254.z60-46-65.customer.algx.net) |
| 20:59.04 | jlp_znc | there isn't a good way to do, e.g. "foo {2} {1}", though. you have to make sure your args line up correctly. |
| 21:00.23 | keldwud | hmm, I'm not gettng foreach my $path (@argv) { print $path; } to work when I run perl foo.pl "/path/to/bar" |
| 21:00.30 | keldwud | *not getting any output |
| 21:00.37 | jlp_znc | @ARGV, not @argv |
| 21:01.03 | keldwud | doh |
| 21:01.06 | keldwud | lol, thanks :) |
| 21:01.09 | keldwud | facepalms |
| 21:01.10 | jlp_znc | if you had use strict; you would know that. :-) |
| 21:01.18 | jlp_znc | always use strict |
| 21:01.43 | jlp_znc | and it doesn't hurt to test with perl -w, too |
| 21:01.53 | keldwud | well, this is my first perl script |
| 21:02.06 | keldwud | and I'm way novice in programming |
| 21:02.11 | keldwud | in general |
| 21:02.21 | jlp_znc | perl may not be the best language to use if you're new to programming |
| 21:02.23 | keldwud | I still haven't gotten through algorithms and data structures |
| 21:02.45 | keldwud | I got distracted with sysadmin duties, so my programming learning took a break |
| 21:02.50 | jlp_znc | ahh |
| 21:03.28 | jlp_znc | if you get yourself comfortable with the shell (and related tools like grep, awk, sed), then you'll find perl is easier to pick up (until you try to do something fancy, then it will just look like line noise again) |
| 21:03.39 | keldwud | yeah I've been doing bash and grep |
| 21:03.47 | keldwud | and broke the ice with awk |
| 21:03.55 | keldwud | but this job seemed beyond my bash capabilities |
| 21:03.58 | keldwud | and perl seemed simpler |
| 21:04.06 | jlp_znc | my general rule is if I get more than 10 commands or so in a pipeline, I toss it and rewrite it in perl |
| 21:04.22 | keldwud | I'm just iterating through the filenames in a folder to determine which ones are missing from the sequence |
| 21:04.40 | keldwud | it probably still could have been bashed out in a oneliner, though |
| 21:04.51 | jlp_znc | ahh, so you're thinking of running your script with, e.g. myscript.pl * |
| 21:04.52 | jlp_znc | ? |
| 21:04.59 | keldwud | the expected format is img_nnnn.tif |
| 21:05.09 | jlp_znc | gotcha |
| 21:05.10 | keldwud | and they should be sequential with an interval of 1 |
| 21:05.21 | keldwud | i.e. 1,2,3,4,5,7,8; 6 is missing |
| 21:05.30 | keldwud | so I identify which ones are missing |
| 21:05.44 | jlp_znc | yeah, it wouldn't be hard to do that in bash, but then you wouldn't learn anything new |
| 21:05.46 | keldwud | but yeah, I'm running it from the command line |
| 21:05.55 | keldwud | perl myscript.pl "path" |
| 21:06.19 | keldwud | now that I have it working correctly in one folder and tested ona couple others as working, now I just want to pass it a list of folders |
| 21:06.34 | keldwud | because I'm lazy and don't want to type the command a hundred times :) |
| 21:06.36 | jlp_znc | right, so you wrap it up in a loop |
| 21:06.44 | keldwud | exactly :) |
| 21:07.04 | jlp_znc | makes perfect sense... let the computer do the boring stuff. that's what they're for. |
| 21:07.11 | keldwud | which is where the foreach my $path (@ARGV) { do stuff to $path } came in |
| 21:07.38 | jlp_znc | which, again, is probably fine and dandy... no need to use shift if you don't have to |
| 21:07.42 | keldwud | the project leader for the project has 4 curators working on it daily, and I'm thinking, why have them do all of that? |
| 21:07.56 | keldwud | yeah, shift was good for just that first iteration of the script |
| 21:08.01 | levi | If you feel like what you're doing in bash is starting to feel like a program, you should probably switch languages. ;) |
| 21:08.19 | jlp_znc | :-) |
| 21:08.22 | keldwud | levi: that's why I felt I should try it in perl instead of bash :) |
| 21:08.38 | keldwud | although if I were more experienced with bash and sed and awk, I probably could have easily done it in bash |
| 21:08.58 | jlp_znc | I've written some pretty hairy sh scripts... my favorite comment is "it's as long as your arm and twice as hairy". |
| 21:09.00 | keldwud | reducing my need to make the script available on the 3 or 4 network shares where I wish to run the script |
| 21:09.23 | levi | Well, I don't count hooking a couple of sed and awk invocations together via pipes as programming in bash. |
| 21:09.46 | levi | sed and awk are sort of domain-specific languages in their own right. |
| 21:10.55 | jlp_znc | hmmm, looks like the longest sh script I have in my personal bin is only 96 lines. |
| 21:10.56 | *** join/#utah olli (~olli@c-71-195-232-74.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:11.01 | levi | perl was born from the idea of merging all the little domain-specific languages together a bit more coherently than the shell does. |
| 21:11.08 | jlp_znc | file * | grep "shell script" | awk -F: '{print $1}' | while read f; do wc -l $f; done | sort -n |
| 21:11.15 | jlp_znc | loves the shell |
| 21:12.39 | keldwud | okay, so can I cat $(file) as an arg? |
| 21:12.57 | keldwud | i.e. perl myscript.pl cat$(file) |
| 21:13.07 | keldwud | or would I need a < |
| 21:13.07 | jlp_znc | perl myscript.pl `cat $file` |
| 21:13.17 | keldwud | oh yeah, backticks |
| 21:13.18 | keldwud | thanks |
| 21:13.26 | levi | I love the idea of the command line shell, but not so much the fossilized relic we have in bash. |
| 21:13.28 | jxqz | $(cat $file) |
| 21:13.53 | jlp_znc | oh levi, bash has grown significantly over old Bourne sh. |
| 21:14.08 | jxqz | levi: how do you like your shell? |
| 21:14.10 | jlp_znc | jxqz: works in bash, not in ancient sh :-) |
| 21:14.51 | levi | old Bourne shell is just bad. The problem with bash is Bourne-compatibility. |
| 21:14.52 | jlp_znc | I learned sh programming from Kernighan & Pike's "The Unix Programming Environment", which didn't assume you had a newer sh than V7 Unix had. |
| 21:14.59 | keldwud | oh yeah that was it |
| 21:15.05 | jxqz | just because sh was included in sysV doesn't mean it should last forever |
| 21:15.09 | keldwud | $(cat $file) > backticks |
| 21:15.12 | keldwud | at least in practice |
| 21:15.16 | jlp_znc | so I tend to write shell scripts with case instead of if [ ], and other stuff like that |
| 21:15.20 | *** join/#utah RyanE (~RyanE@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 21:15.37 | jlp_znc | sh forever! |
| 21:16.03 | jlp_znc | http://www.perl.com/doc/FMTEYEWTK/versus/csh.whynot |
| 21:16.17 | jxqz | that's somewhat like people who want to preserve a city's skyline |
| 21:16.31 | jlp_znc | get off my lawn! |
| 21:16.37 | jlp_znc | you young whippersnappers |
| 21:16.44 | jxqz | people who lived in NYC allowed the empire state building to be built, why are we now denying new buildings to be erected |
| 21:17.09 | goozbach | keldwud: look for File::Slurp |
| 21:17.19 | jxqz | the real secret that nobody ever thinks about is that in 100 years, the current skyline as we know it will be so old that it will have to be all torn down anyway |
| 21:17.19 | goozbach | it's better than cat'ing |
| 21:17.46 | keldwud | but then I'd have to do it in the perl script, instead of from the command line |
| 21:17.55 | jxqz | perl -e |
| 21:17.56 | jxqz | ? |
| 21:18.05 | jlp_znc | http://steve-parker.org/sh/philosophy.shtml |
| 21:18.48 | ldav15 | I used to use csh long, long ago. csh is harmful! |
| 21:18.59 | jxqz | candy corn shell |
| 21:19.46 | levi | My first shell was ksh. |
| 21:20.25 | jlp_znc | mine was csh. it was okay for interactive use (compared to the ancient sh in 4.2BSD), but not for programming. |
| 21:21.33 | jxqz | tchksh |
| 21:21.36 | jxqz | say that one |
| 21:23.54 | keldwud | whoops. |
| 21:23.56 | keldwud | permission denied? |
| 21:24.35 | keldwud | perl myscript.pl $(cat $(./file.txt)) == permission denied |
| 21:24.57 | jlp_znc | lose the $() around ./file.txt |
| 21:25.04 | jlp_znc | you're trying to run it |
| 21:30.28 | keldwud | interesting. |
| 21:30.37 | manithree1 | Q: How many IBM processors does take to execute a process? |
| 21:30.40 | keldwud | I can put double quotes around paths that contain spaces in the command line |
| 21:30.54 | keldwud | but I can't put double quotes around paths in a file that contain spaces and have it work? |
| 21:31.04 | keldwud | so I need to escape all those spaces, I'm guessing |
| 21:31.07 | *** join/#utah smcquay (~smcquay@17.193.12.131) |
| 21:31.37 | jlp_znc | the shell is interpreting the double spaces on the command line... your program has to interpret them if you are reading them from a file. by the time your program sees them, they've already been interpolated once. |
| 21:32.29 | keldwud | yeah, just escaping them didn't work either |
| 21:32.38 | keldwud | maybe if i escape and remove the double quotes |
| 21:32.45 | jlp_znc | if you're going to go that route, you probably want to have your perl script just read the file directly (it can read them a line at a time with while (<>)) |
| 21:33.03 | manithree1 | A: 10: 9 to hold it down, 1 to chop it's head off. |
| 21:33.05 | keldwud | yeah, I probably should |
| 21:33.27 | keldwud | it's a samba/windows share, so there are crappy naming conventions |
| 21:33.54 | keldwud | it's not a one-time job, though, that's why I was trying to make it work from the command line |
| 21:34.09 | keldwud | I wanted to cron it or something and then just have it run on any new paths that have been added since the last time it ran |
| 21:34.22 | jxqz | escape hell |
| 21:34.29 | jxqz | \\\\\\\\\\\\\\" |
| 21:34.37 | levi | Trying to do things that involve crappy naming conventions with files at the command line is an exercise in extreme frustration. |
| 21:34.52 | keldwud | so what's the most commonly accepted solution? |
| 21:35.13 | jxqz | why is it so much to expect a shell to intuitively handle the full spectrum of unicode file names? |
| 21:35.38 | jxqz | keldwud: don't use a shell script? :) |
| 21:35.50 | keldwud | so I shouldn't be doing this in perl anymore? |
| 21:35.54 | keldwud | I should maybe switch to c#? |
| 21:35.58 | keldwud | since I know c# |
| 21:36.06 | jxqz | if you're using system calls directly, then you don't have to worry about the shell magically interpreting arguments |
| 21:36.10 | levi | jxqz: Unicode? That's too new-fangled. |
| 21:36.38 | Q_Continuum | youtah: Tell your marketing guys they're giving way too short notice on their Technology Showcase for tomorrow. (I first got told about it last week, but that is probably when they sent it out post-VMUG) |
| 21:36.42 | Q_Continuum | ;-P |
| 21:36.50 | levi | I have an itch to create a command line shell based on luajit and ljsyscall. |
| 21:36.52 | jxqz | you could use perl, but perl has lots of history and nostalgia for shell utils, as levi says |
| 21:36.58 | Q_Continuum | "Hey can you make it to our 11AM-end-of-day event next week?" HAHAHAHA |
| 21:37.03 | keldwud | "popular system calls are open, read, write, close, wait, execve, fork, exit, and kill" |
| 21:37.07 | Q_Continuum | Also, ew, Dell. |
| 21:37.12 | Q_Continuum | ;-P |
| 21:37.15 | jlp_znc | youtah's not at his desk |
| 21:37.28 | jxqz | ~wake youtah |
| 21:37.28 | infobot | ACTION throws a barrel-full of ice water on youtah and shouts "GOOD MORNING!!!!" |
| 21:37.43 | jxqz | ~mule youtah |
| 21:37.46 | keldwud | so when you say "use system calls directly" do you mean I should do it direct from the command line? |
| 21:37.50 | jxqz | what's that one command called? |
| 21:38.05 | jlp_znc | ~lart youtah |
| 21:38.05 | infobot | chops youtah in half with a free Solaris 7 CD |
| 21:38.09 | keldwud | or goozbach mentioned slurp earlier |
| 21:38.41 | jxqz | keldwud: no, I mean, use the system libs directly instead of through the shell. If you're in C/C++ you'd just do f = open("the/file.txt"); // or whatever |
| 21:39.09 | jlp_znc | just remember you don't get any automatic buffering when you do that. |
| 21:39.13 | jxqz | slurpee |
| 21:39.16 | jlp_znc | youtah has returned. |
| 21:39.29 | manithree1 | I've used groovy and python for Windows shares with spaces and weird directory name "scripts" |
| 21:39.43 | jxqz | hence, you should use a useful language with system lib bindings like python/perl/ruby |
| 21:39.46 | levi | Well, if you're in C, you can get buffering with fopen instead of open. |
| 21:41.13 | jxqz | my flame war on the utahpython mailing list smoked out |
| 21:41.36 | levi | The coolest shell-like scripting language that I wish had caught on is scsh, the scheme shell. |
| 21:41.37 | jxqz | mailing lists and irc channels just aren't as cool as they used to be |
| 21:41.51 | rsimpkins | jxqz: Why? What happened? |
| 21:41.56 | jxqz | levi: I know a program that has a C++ shell |
| 21:42.08 | jxqz | rsimpkins: face it. You're an old timer now |
| 21:42.15 | rsimpkins | jxqz: yeah, so? |
| 21:42.26 | levi | It's got a very clean, regular way of creating and interacting with processes, and it has several embedded mini-languages for text processing and such. |
| 21:42.34 | levi | jxqz: Ew. |
| 21:43.01 | jxqz | these new whipper-snappers use their plutonium jphones over faceplant and twister to communicate |
| 21:43.37 | rsimpkins | jxqz: I do that too. Both are good. Why is flamewars in mailing lists dying then? |
| 21:43.38 | levi | The point of the programming capabilities of sh was that scripting in C sucks even worse than scripting in sh. |
| 21:43.47 | jxqz | levi: http://root.cern.ch/drupal/content/cint |
| 21:44.05 | jxqz | well, I guess it's more of an interpreter than a shell |
| 21:44.29 | jxqz | but what's the difference between a script and a program? |
| 21:44.49 | levi | It's a fuzzy distinction, but real nonetheless. |
| 21:45.39 | jxqz | lilypond shell |
| 21:45.42 | jxqz | haha |
| 21:45.49 | levi | scripts tend to be small programs that rely heavily on the capabilities of advanced libraries or other programs to do most of their work. |
| 21:45.50 | jxqz | xmlsh |
| 21:45.56 | keldwud | so in perl I would maybe open $ARGV and then @paths = <FILE>; ? |
| 21:46.07 | keldwud | -er... |
| 21:46.20 | levi | You might do that, but I wouldn't. |
| 21:46.22 | keldwud | open <FILE>; @paths = <FILE>; |
| 21:46.31 | keldwud | ahh, well am I getting closer? |
| 21:46.42 | jlp_znc | you could open $ARGV[0], but it would be better to use the spaceship operator and let perl do the work for you: while (<>) { |
| 21:46.50 | jlp_znc | chomp; |
| 21:46.54 | jxqz | rsimpkins: because people don't think about mailing lists the same way they used to |
| 21:46.54 | joshh | jxqz: some of my baby faced coworkers are trying to replace irc with gtalk and something called campfire :( |
| 21:46.55 | levi | It might be a perfectly fine thing to do; I can just never remember perl well enough between my infrequent uses of it. |
| 21:47.01 | jlp_znc | do whatever you want with $_ |
| 21:47.02 | jlp_znc | } |
| 21:47.14 | joshh | or whatever the google apps IM is called, not sure if gtalk is correct |
| 21:47.18 | rsimpkins | jxqz: Ahh. I see your point. yes. IRC as well. |
| 21:47.21 | jxqz | joshh: haha |
| 21:47.33 | keldwud | so while(<FILE>) { put $_ into an array } ? |
| 21:47.38 | jxqz | but gross |
| 21:47.52 | keldwud | i.e. push |
| 21:49.37 | jlp_znc | just process it directly |
| 21:49.58 | jxqz | joshh: doesn't make sense. Is there even a reasonable argument for that? is communication in English meaningfully enhanced by GUI decor? |
| 21:50.00 | jlp_znc | let's say you have files.txt, which contains a list of directories that you want to run your interval finder on |
| 21:50.18 | jlp_znc | if you run your program like this: myprogram.pl file.txt |
| 21:50.42 | jlp_znc | then in your program, you have something like while (<>) { chomp; do_my_thing($_); } |
| 21:51.00 | keldwud | I don't get that second part |
| 21:51.09 | jlp_znc | later, you have files.txt and newfiles.txt, you don't have to change your program, just run myprog.pl files.txt newfiles.txt |
| 21:51.39 | keldwud | googles while (<>) and chomp |
| 21:51.48 | jlp_znc | spaceship (<>) takes the next arg off of @ARGV, opens it, and reads a line at a time out of it, when it hits eof on the file, it tries the next file in @ARGV or bails out if there aren't any more. |
| 21:52.11 | keldwud | ooooh |
| 21:52.17 | keldwud | okay that makes a lot more sense now |
| 21:52.17 | fungus | or if no args, just processes stdin |
| 21:52.30 | jlp_znc | chomp strips the trailing newline off of the dirnames that you've got in file.txt. you might have to play with the end of line separator if you're running on windows (I never do) |
| 21:52.32 | fungus | so it works like grep does. Args first, or stdin |
| 21:53.00 | joshh | jxqz: they don't get that irc isn't supposed to be instant response, presence awareness, etc |
| 21:53.11 | keldwud | but I still have to open, don't I? and close at the end? |
| 21:53.17 | joshh | and think newfangled stuff is better because it provides that |
| 21:53.22 | fungus | keldwud, no |
| 21:53.27 | fungus | perl does all that for you |
| 21:53.33 | jlp_znc | joshh: yeah, I hate that about IM systems. "are you there?" 30 seconds go by "guess not" |
| 21:53.39 | joshh | ya |
| 21:53.46 | jlp_znc | just ask your freakin' question and I'll answer it when I get a free cycle or two |
| 21:54.54 | keldwud | ahh, nice. |
| 21:55.00 | keldwud | spaceship operator is sexy |
| 21:55.16 | jlp_znc | it's one of the many "magic" things about perl that python programmers hate :-) |
| 21:55.23 | fungus | keldwud, sample usage: http://paste2.org/72WjkIZY |
| 21:55.34 | shalkie | jima: I have a beard too... I have transited the UT/SL county border many times over the last couple months on the freeway without a problem. |
| 21:55.35 | keldwud | now what about scope for $_? |
| 21:55.43 | keldwud | I've already a loop that is using $_ |
| 21:55.52 | keldwud | are there going to be any conflicts |
| 21:56.05 | jlp_znc | yeah, probably |
| 21:56.40 | keldwud | so it might not be as magic as I want it to be if I enclose my current program with the while (<>) { chomp; do stuff } |
| 21:57.21 | *** join/#utah olli (~olli@c-71-195-232-74.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:57.22 | keldwud | thanks for the example, fungus |
| 21:57.33 | fungus | just store the value in $_ in a new var that is more readable. |
| 21:58.01 | fungus | while (<>) { chomp; $file = $_; do stuff; } |
| 21:58.06 | keldwud | oh yeah, duh |
| 21:58.07 | keldwud | lol |
| 21:58.52 | *** join/#utah olli (~olli@c-71-195-232-74.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:59.30 | keldwud | in perl, what's the difference between declaring a variable with my and not declaring a variable with my? |
| 21:59.57 | fungus | a warning message is run in strict mode. |
| 22:00.03 | fungus | s/is/if/ |
| 22:00.56 | fungus | declaring the variable defines the scope, and is good practice. |
| 22:01.12 | fungus | though not required for quickie one-offs |
| 22:09.27 | levi | Defines and *limits* the scope, which is important in larger programs and library writing. |
| 22:15.33 | *** join/#utah VanHelsing (~vanhelsin@97-126-217-231.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 22:17.34 | keldwud | so I'm still trying to figure out the formatting to use in my file full of paths that contain spaces |
| 22:17.47 | keldwud | so if perl is reading it directly, the quotes should work, right? |
| 22:21.47 | unum | don't tak ethis the wrong way, but what do I do with the feather |
| 22:22.54 | ldav15 | unum: That'd be the Roswell Google doodle, right? |
| 22:23.53 | unum | ya, figured out the level |
| 22:24.46 | ldav15 | unum: I don't know. I got stuck at the bottom of the pit with it. |
| 22:24.53 | unum | hmm apparantly I do nothing with the feather |
| 22:25.08 | unum | now I'm all confused |
| 22:27.24 | unum | bottom of the pit? |
| 22:28.22 | ldav15 | Yep. In the scene with the cow. |
| 22:29.38 | youtah | doesn't want to play after being chopped in half with a free Solaris 7 CD |
| 22:31.33 | *** part/#utah manithree1 (~blr@li4-76.members.linode.com) |
| 22:32.18 | unum | I don't have the cave... |
| 22:40.30 | *** join/#utah olli (~olli@c-71-195-232-74.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 22:43.45 | youtah | WHOA! Did you guys hear about the Ref in Brazil? |
| 22:44.37 | youtah | Ref expels player. Player attacks ref. Ref fatally stabs player. Fans stone ref to death, then quarter & decapitate ref... sticking his head on a pole. |
| 22:44.44 | ldav15 | youtah: yeah. They take their futbol seriously. |
| 22:45.05 | ldav15 | ;-( |
| 22:45.11 | ldav15 | :-( |
| 22:45.47 | youtah | So..... no words. |
| 22:46.37 | ldav15 | What can one say? Tragedy all the way around. |
| 22:48.33 | jxqz | joshh: yeah. I've always felt that IM/txt philosophy is meant to include the nag and obligation factor, like it's rude to move on to something else if the other person might have anything more to say |
| 22:48.49 | jxqz | blinking orange gmail IM in that one tab |
| 22:48.55 | jxqz | make it go away! |
| 22:49.01 | jxqz | can't resist |
| 22:49.54 | jxqz | whereas in irc culture, conversation interruptions can span hours or even days without trouble |
| 23:13.55 | keldwud | I love conversation interruptions |
| 23:14.10 | keldwud | my irc communications habits have leaked into my AWK/IRL interactions |
| 23:14.25 | keldwud | I'll stop midsentence with somebody and then a few days later just pick up where I left off |
| 23:14.33 | keldwud | only some people can handle that, though :( |
| 23:14.39 | keldwud | other people freak without context |
| 23:15.07 | keldwud | I guess maybe there is a portion of the population that can't search their own databases for context clues. They can only access immediately recent events for context. |
| 23:15.12 | *** join/#utah olli (~olli@c-71-195-232-74.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 23:15.21 | keldwud | the rest is in inaccessible storage |
| 23:15.45 | keldwud | unless it's a group or collective / cultural memory from an event that was shared by many |
| 23:15.51 | keldwud | like pop culture references |
| 23:15.55 | keldwud | as one example |
| 23:18.07 | keldwud | is plan 9 (from Bell Labs) fun? and does anyone use it in production? |
| 23:37.23 | *** join/#utah olli (~olli@c-71-195-232-74.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |