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| 01:05.46 | jima | ezakimak: clearly you haven't encountered any of my online diatribes against djb's ipv6 position statement. |
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| 01:15.41 | jima | regarding djbdns, i wouldn't recommend running 10-year-old, unmaintained code on the public internet to any of my friends. enemies, maybe. |
| 01:18.59 | jima | anyone down-playing dual-stack as a migration plan is welcome to point out the better long-term solution for the internet. cgn everywhere? |
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| 01:53.37 | ezakimak | it's not much of a plan |
| 01:53.52 | ezakimak | and djb isn't unmaintained |
| 01:54.21 | jima | ok, where's the version newer than 1.05? |
| 01:54.23 | ezakimak | just because it's old, doesn't mean it's less useful. just how many vulnerabilities has the "more maintained" bind suffered in the same timeframe |
| 01:55.34 | ezakimak | I have patches as new as 2011 |
| 01:55.42 | jima | patches from who? |
| 01:57.30 | ezakimak | added by my distro's maintainer of djbdns |
| 01:57.39 | ezakimak | i'd have to check the bugtracker to find out |
| 01:57.47 | jima | don't those patches invalidate djb's security warranty? |
| 01:58.29 | jima | i wouldn't trust any project whose only maintenance was happening at the distro level. |
| 01:58.45 | ezakimak | i never said it was at the distro level |
| 01:59.02 | ezakimak | there are a lot of people that use and trust djbdns, not just gentoo distro |
| 01:59.50 | ezakimak | i trust it infinitely more than bind--by design it is inherently more secure |
| 02:00.23 | jima | by design it is inherently less featureful, as well. |
| 02:00.33 | ezakimak | how so? what can't it do? |
| 02:00.53 | jima | ipv6, out of the box? |
| 02:01.00 | jima | dnssec? |
| 02:01.05 | ezakimak | it can do arbitrary records |
| 02:01.08 | jima | dns64? |
| 02:01.33 | jima | djbdns talks ipv6, too? i'm not just talking record types. |
| 02:01.39 | ezakimak | i dunno about dnssec or dns64--never tried to |
| 02:01.50 | ezakimak | ipv6 is possible w/djbdns |
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| 02:02.01 | jima | and i'm also aware that for it to do arbitrary records, you have to spoon-feed it the escaped records |
| 02:02.24 | ezakimak | there's tools to do it for you |
| 02:03.09 | jima | "it works great! just take what djb wrote, add patches, external tools, and duct tape, and there you are!" |
| 02:03.23 | ezakimak | how is that so different from other software? |
| 02:03.40 | ezakimak | "it works great! so long as you vigilantly add security patches before you get hacked!" (eg bind) |
| 02:04.18 | jima | funny, doesn't djbdns 1.05 have a security vulnerability on 64-bit oob? |
| 02:04.47 | ezakimak | ? |
| 02:06.06 | jima | shoot, lemme see if i can find that again |
| 02:06.21 | ezakimak | hrm. bugs.gentoo.org shows 7 bugs for djbdns, 83 for bind. |
| 02:08.13 | ezakimak | back to sb |
| 02:13.05 | jima | i know this wasn't the referenced bug, but curious nonetheless: http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/57669/info |
| 02:16.44 | jima | http://article.gmane.org/gmane.network.djbdns/13864 there it is. |
| 02:17.15 | jima | "The next release of djbdns will be backed by a new security guarantee." wait, what next release? |
| 02:19.05 | ezakimak | he released it to the PD |
| 02:19.28 | jima | did any distros with tight licensing policies ever accept PD as open source compatible? |
| 02:19.32 | ezakimak | so, nearly 4 years ago they found 1 vulnerablitility, and he patched it and paid an award |
| 02:19.40 | jima | last i heard, fedora couldn't. |
| 02:19.51 | ezakimak | how can PD *not* be oss compatible? |
| 02:20.06 | jima | iirc, it's actually *too* permissive. |
| 02:20.08 | ezakimak | because it's not viral like GPLv3 and require contributions? |
| 02:20.28 | jima | require...contributions? |
| 02:20.57 | ezakimak | yes. you fix something or improve it, you have to share it if you distribute it |
| 02:21.24 | ezakimak | with bsd or PD, you do whatever you like, distribute it however, but don't have to disclose what you changed |
| 02:21.29 | jima | if you distribute the derivative work? |
| 02:21.32 | ezakimak | yes |
| 02:22.03 | jima | if you don't like that term of the gpl, don't derive code from gpl'd works. |
| 02:22.38 | ezakimak | exactly |
| 02:22.50 | ezakimak | our way or the highway |
| 02:23.38 | ezakimak | well, you can derive, you just can't distribute it that way |
| 02:23.48 | jima | "our terms or do your own damn work" |
| 02:28.00 | jima | ah, i guess PD is FSF compatible (now?) |
| 02:40.50 | jima | i see, the uncertainty was brief. *missedthememo* |
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| 18:43.42 | levi | Heh, DNS servers. |
| 18:44.10 | levi | What a screwy protocol! |
| 18:44.20 | levi | Well, the URL compression part of it anyway. |
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| 18:55.36 | tensai | jsmith: did you ever get decent internet at home, or are you still going over a cell phone? |
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| 18:56.30 | goozbach | is jsmith ever at home long enough to enjoy intenet access? :) |
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| 19:29.17 | youtah | http://www.ksl.com/?sid=23955297&nid=1014&title=uk-sends-hand-held-helicopter-drones-to-war-zone&fm=home_page&s_cid=queue-5 |
| 19:42.21 | youtah | Non-LDS weddings are so much more fun than LDS weddings. |
| 19:42.41 | youtah | Shot another wedding on Saturday.... man it was fun |
| 19:43.53 | spangborn | Well, yeah ;p |
| 19:43.59 | spangborn | Because you can actually shoot the ceremony. |
| 19:44.15 | youtah | even LDS weddings in a cultural hall.... |
| 19:44.42 | youtah | They played Rage Against The Machine during their first dance |
| 19:44.43 | youtah | lol |
| 19:44.50 | youtah | (it was a mash up of several songs) |
| 19:45.07 | youtah | it was spectacular! |
| 19:45.41 | youtah | and it was in an art gallery, with white walls and white ceilings... 15' ceilings. I was bouncing flashes all over the place. It was a photographers dream |
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| 20:06.16 | Gate | youtah: when one says "Non-LDS wedding are more fun" others rarely expect it to result in a conversation about lighting and more a conversation about boozed up people |
| 20:07.01 | spangborn | Gate: He did mention flashing, though |
| 20:08.12 | programmerq | argh-- I don't have a "real" rhn account for my rhel6 boxes-- using mirrors from aws and an internal mirror. Can someone with a real rhn account check upstream to see if rhel6 really does or doesn't provide the libffi-devel package? |
| 20:08.26 | programmerq | aws's mirror has it, but our internal mirror doesn't. |
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| 20:22.27 | programmerq | oh, I think I have it figured out. it's in like optional or supplementary or something |
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| 20:31.06 | unum | we did our wedding reception at wheeler farm, we were pretty restrained in our spending other than that |
| 20:32.24 | programmerq | we did our reception in my in-laws backyard/house. (they have a cool house/yard) |
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| 21:31.29 | joshh | lds weddings aren't really weddings, more like "ok, this is where the non-worthy people can come see us, since we did the temple thing without you at 9am" |
| 21:38.38 | programmerq | joshh: you're talking about the reception |
| 21:38.45 | programmerq | but there are non-temple lds weddings as well |
| 21:40.23 | joshh | ya but at most normal weddings, the wedding and reception are together at the same place |
| 21:40.32 | spangborn | Not necessarily ;p |
| 21:40.43 | spangborn | Lots of people do a wedding ceremony at a church, and a reception elsewhere |
| 21:40.48 | spangborn | <-- wedding photog |
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| 21:43.03 | macnewbold | I see it as one being the ceremony and the other being the party. most people are much more interested in the party anyway. |
| 21:52.22 | goozbach | I must have had a non-typical wedding |
| 21:52.44 | goozbach | we had the family at the Temple, and a small luncheon at the entrance to Zion |
| 21:52.47 | goozbach | on our wedding day |
| 21:52.59 | goozbach | that was a tuesday |
| 21:53.12 | goozbach | the wedding reception was on the following saturday |
| 21:53.28 | goozbach | then three weeks later in GA for our GA reception |
| 22:11.53 | mheath | I've had two weddings. Each time, the reception was at the same place, though very distinctly it's own thing. |
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| 22:25.27 | romanovic | please, someone tell me this is not real http://treitter.livejournal.com/14871.html |
| 22:25.42 | romanovic | "Our decision is to support JavaScript as the first class language for GNOME application development." |
| 22:26.15 | spangborn | They're just following in the footsteps of Microsoft ;p |
| 22:27.32 | romanovic | I thought maybe it was satirical. |
| 22:28.24 | romanovic | along the lines of "Federal Reserve to issue monopoly money as legal tender" or "Local construction company to replace dump truck fleet with Tonka trucks" |
| 22:29.12 | levi | Would you prefer they support vala as the first class language for GNOME application support? :P |
| 22:30.43 | romanovic | can't say I have experience with vala. Or writing gnome apps. |
| 22:31.59 | romanovic | maybe i'm not keeping up with the times, but when i read hacker news and tech blogs, I feel like there's a definite trend of "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if we rewrote <random library> in javascript?" |
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| 22:32.49 | mheath | What's wrong with JavaScript? Honestly? |
| 22:33.02 | romanovic | absolutely nothing. I write javascript every single day. |
| 22:33.09 | mheath | I mean, the langauge itself is capable and fully functional |
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| 22:33.31 | mheath | And in this context they're using that base language in a completely different way than one would for a web site |
| 22:34.01 | levi | Well, Javascript does have some serious flaws. But so do most languages. |
| 22:34.23 | romanovic | yes. |
| 22:35.35 | romanovic | I write javascript, and many other languages, and use different languages depending on what's best suited for a task |
| 22:36.11 | romanovic | but there's a faction out there that is determined to prove that javascript is well suited to EVERY task |
| 22:36.18 | mheath | While JavaSCript vs other simple, interpreted, languages might be an arbitrary choice, I can certainly see the logic in wanting to move towards a simple, interpreted language as a first class citizen for gnome programming |
| 22:36.46 | mheath | Though such initiatives do tend to be trendy and short lived |
| 22:36.52 | levi | It's not as if they're removing support for writing applications in C or Vala or whatever. They're just putting javascript as the first language that will receive API documentation support and that sort of thing. |
| 22:37.11 | mheath | They're always started with "We're going to revolutionize Gnome programming with this new simple, awesome method!" and ultimately lack of adoptation leads to it eventually being defunct |
| 22:38.17 | levi | I am not a gigantic fan of javascript, but it's a pretty general-purpose language and has a LOT of people working on making high-performance implementations. |
| 22:38.17 | mheath | I'd imagine it will be even more abstract than that, levi.....The core api will likely still be C or whatever, and the javascript will just be an interpreted layer on top of that, albeit a heavily supported, publicized, and docucmented one |
| 22:38.37 | levi | mheath: Sure, that's more or less what I meant. |
| 22:39.01 | mheath | I imagine part of the initiative is some level of cross-compatability with other APIs and eventually web interfaces too |
| 22:39.18 | levi | There are already Python bindings, for example. |
| 22:40.08 | levi | It doesn't sound like they're planning any massive restructuring or anything, just working on making the javascript bindings good and well-documented. |
| 22:40.50 | mheath | Yep. And publicizing it all in a way that encourages new programmers who are more comfortable with such a tool to dive into Gnome development |
| 22:42.14 | mheath | I'm confused about how one would do too much with javascript though. Javascript that plugs into Gnome.....Great. But it has to plug into a lot of other stuff that it currently doesn't before you can do much with it |
| 22:42.32 | mheath | Is there even a good, standardzied, non-web-browser-based javascript implementation for Linux? |
| 22:42.37 | levi | Anyway, at the very least, it's no more silly than doing web servers in javascript via node.js |
| 22:42.50 | levi | mheath: gnome-shell is already largely written in javascript |
| 22:43.02 | mheath | I get that, but what is *interpreting* it? |
| 22:43.36 | mheath | That is, what appliation is the interpreter? And is there a standard for the general purpose, libc type API for javavscript? |
| 22:44.07 | mheath | All the javascript interpreters I have been particularly familiar with have been those built into web browsers |
| 22:44.24 | levi | gjs is what they use, apparently. |
| 22:44.55 | levi | Also, see node.js for another non-browser javascript platform. |
| 22:46.06 | mheath | Thats a misleadin name. Interesting. |
| 22:46.19 | levi | What's a misleading name? |
| 22:46.44 | mheath | I saw "node.js" and my thought was "You can't implement javascript IN javascript,since it's not a compiled language..." |
| 22:47.08 | mheath | I wasn't familiar with it, and din't realize it wasn't just a javscript file, but a bundling of an api with the Chrome interpreter. |
| 22:47.35 | romanovic | node.js too has always seemed like a silly project to me |
| 22:47.44 | romanovic | not because it doesn't work fine |
| 22:49.21 | mheath | Let's just compromise. Drop the 'script' and program everything in Java ;) |
| 22:49.34 | Gate | whimpers at the thought |
| 22:49.57 | mheath | Haha |
| 22:50.15 | mheath | Definately a sarcastic comment. I came away scarred and with a deapseated hatred for Java |
| 22:50.48 | mheath | Though my personal use of it was for very non-traditional situations, where it is even more poorly suited than normal |
| 22:52.09 | mheath | I feel bad that I didn't document the issues I found with it, actually, because I probably should have submitted some bug reports... |
| 22:53.10 | spangborn | I'm sure you could implement javascript in javascript, just like someone's implemented PHP in PHP ;p |
| 22:53.49 | spangborn | Doesn't mean it's a good idea, though |
| 22:54.20 | Gate | mheath: I have gained a deepseated hatred for java by using it for what it is intended for |
| 22:54.32 | levi | Implementing javascript in javascript wouldn't even be terribly difficult, as far as language implementations go. |
| 22:54.40 | Gate | I'm dancing with joy at Oracle's efforts to self-annihilate the entire ecosystem |
| 22:55.05 | levi | What is java intended for these days? The story changed regularly during its early life. |
| 22:55.31 | spangborn | It's not bad as a web platform. |
| 22:55.41 | mheath | I should clarify. I know its *possible* to code a javascript interpreter in javascript...I just mean, since most (all?) javascript interpreters are interpreted and not compilers, there'd be no benefit.. |
| 22:55.46 | Gate | "enterprise" web apps |
| 22:55.58 | Gate | s/enterprise/shitty/ |
| 22:56.02 | spangborn | Eh, not quite. |
| 22:56.04 | Gate | yep, same meaning. |
| 22:56.07 | spangborn | JIT ;p |
| 22:56.15 | mheath | I was using it for scientific applications. I took a course that focused on Physics simulations, using java as the programming language |
| 22:56.33 | mheath | I ran into a lot of issues with floating point number handling |
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| 22:56.43 | spangborn | For enterprise level stuff, it's the goto language. |
| 22:57.26 | mheath | There were some simulations where floating point precision down to the 10^-5 or 10^-6 level mattered...and it was almost impossible to do that properly |
| 22:59.14 | mheath | The most annoying 'bug' I found was when I was trying to zero out all cells of a multi-dimentional array of Longs |
| 22:59.39 | spangborn | Tempting... http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2037429657/almond-80211ac-touchscreen-wifi-router-smart-home |
| 22:59.55 | mheath | I forget what method I used, but it should hve zeroed it out, and instead filled all the variables with very much non-zero garbage data |
| 23:00.40 | mheath | That bug took me weeks to discover, and basically ruined my final project for a class, since I spent weeks tracking down mystery java bugs that fundamentally broke my app, rather than improving and refining its functionality |
| 23:03.16 | mheath | spangborn: I have yet to contribute to kickstarters. I've heard too many horror stories about project timeline delays and project failures :( |
| 23:03.16 | Gate | Java is really only still "winning" in enterprise web app development, as far as I can tell. There are some outliers like Minecraft, but languages that are less torturous are winning pretty much everywhere except games |
| 23:03.23 | spangborn | Meh. |
| 23:03.28 | Gate | mheath: its a risk |
| 23:03.34 | spangborn | They're just almost always late. |
| 23:03.34 | Gate | I'm still waiting on my pebble watch |
| 23:03.36 | spangborn | Something to expect |
| 23:03.38 | spangborn | Ditto, Gate. |
| 23:04.04 | Gate | but I just contributed to An Honest Liar, which I probably won't get for a year, and I'm OK with it. |
| 23:04.31 | mheath | It just feels like a big gamble. A lot are very low-key projects...giving thousands to what basically amounts to some guy in his garage, expecrting him to build a polished electronic device |
| 23:05.00 | Gate | mheath: yep. But there are a few really polished ones that you can take the chance on, like pebble or http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/220588101/an-honest-liar-the-amazing-randi-story |
| 23:05.19 | mheath | That touchscreen router sounds cool though..... |
| 23:05.24 | Gate | I think its a fantastic idea for early adopters |
| 23:05.47 | mheath | I was thinking of that, the other day.... At present, I only have ONE device in my house that can be used for out-of-box configuration of a standard router |
| 23:07.09 | mheath | Kind of a ridiculous limitation for modern tech, that you still need a computer with a standard ethernet port to do any kind of complex configuration of a router that is likely used 90% for non-traditional, wireless only devices |
| 23:08.18 | levi | mheath: Did you run into problems with IEEE 754 implementation in Java, then? |
| 23:09.42 | mheath | Not really, other than that set-an-integer-array-to-0 bug I found |
| 23:10.33 | mheath | I mean, when you're demanding scientific-grade floating point precision, pretty much any language falls short. Floating point is tricky business, and MOST programming language users aren't processing scientific data |
| 23:10.40 | levi | IIRC, Java floats work just like any other IEEE 754 floats, so precision caveats apply throughout. |
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| 23:11.00 | levi | This is why they have numerical methods courses for people doing that sort of thing. |
| 23:11.38 | levi | There are standard arbitrary precision libraries for Java though, IIRC. |
| 23:12.03 | levi | java.math.BigDecimal |
| 23:12.10 | mheath | Yeah. I know theres issues. And this was just a simple, under grad course, so it didn't go into a lot of detail or have a lot of computer-floating-point-handling knowledge as a pre-requisite |
| 23:12.20 | mheath | Again, I worked around the main caveats of floating point stuff |
| 23:12.37 | mheath | It was just that zero out bug that filled my Longs with garbage data rather than actually 0.00000 or anything reasonably close to it |
| 23:12.54 | levi | Are you talking Longs or Doubles? |
| 23:13.12 | mheath | Doubles. Sorry. Its now been a while since i've worked with Java, and I mixed up the two. |
| 23:13.50 | mheath | I forget what the function was. In the Java documentation, it was only documented for a higher-level abstract, not specifically Double class. But it promised the value should be zeroed..... |
| 23:14.19 | mheath | Though it also basically said that the individual implementation and behavior for a particular data type didn't explicitely 'promise' a particular behavior |
| 23:14.31 | mheath | So its a big of a gray area I guess on if it was even a bug |
| 23:14.43 | mheath | Even though it certainly seemed counter intuitive and wrong behavior to me |
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| 23:31.01 | Gate | I don't mind floating point errors as long as the numbers aren't being used to store my money or save my life. |
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