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| 17:41.03 | Migs | You're most welcome. Merry Christmas! |
| 17:41.23 | errstr | Best gift, ever. |
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| 23:08.18 | eightyeight | http://www.fsf.org/blogs/rms/ubuntu-spyware-what-to-do |
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| 23:17.44 | jsmith | eightyeight: Run Fedora, obviously... |
| 23:17.49 | jsmith | ducks and hides |
| 23:18.05 | eightyeight | sorry. i care about standards. :) |
| 23:18.14 | Tene | That's what I've been doing for years; I really find a lot of canonical's decisions very distasteful. |
| 23:18.29 | fugue88 | eightyeight: Standards? |
| 23:18.32 | jsmith | eightyeight: I'm not sure I follow... |
| 23:18.33 | Tene | Which standards is fedora unacceptable by? |
| 23:19.05 | eightyeight | well... |
| 23:19.17 | fugue88 | Fedora doesn't implement SMTP correctly? |
| 23:19.19 | eightyeight | /etc/sysconfig/ vs /etc/default/ |
| 23:19.33 | eightyeight | /etc/rc.d/init.d/ vs /etc/init.d/ |
| 23:20.05 | Tene | What else besides debian uses /etc/default/ ? |
| 23:20.06 | jsmith | eightyeight: Which standard is that? LSB? Is it really a "broken standard", or just a difference of opinion? |
| 23:20.10 | eightyeight | there are a few other directory structures that i can't think of now that separates RH from the rest of the heard |
| 23:20.22 | eightyeight | largely though, i'm teasing |
| 23:20.23 | fugue88 | Tene: Gentoo. |
| 23:20.42 | eightyeight | Tene: Solaris, HP-UX, AIX, ... |
| 23:21.02 | jsmith | eightyeight: <tease>At least now we know you value standards more than privacy</tease> |
| 23:21.05 | Tene | 1) RH has had /etc/init.d/ for as long as I've been familiar with it, and 2) systemd |
| 23:21.10 | fugue88 | jsmith: :D |
| 23:21.14 | eightyeight | jsmith: i'm not running ubuntu. |
| 23:21.18 | eightyeight | <miss> |
| 23:21.29 | jsmith | eightyeight: And, in all fairness, Fedora is known to buck the trend from time to time... it's not afraid to be different |
| 23:21.55 | jsmith | (SELinux and systemd being two notable examples) |
| 23:22.05 | fugue88 | Not afraid to be "beafy" I think the terminology is. ;) |
| 23:22.41 | jsmith | fugue88: Oh, we're long past that now... |
| 23:22.44 | Tene | I've been very happy with those decisions, personally. |
| 23:23.09 | jsmith | fugue88: We've moved on to Spherical Cow and Schrödinger's Cat |
| 23:23.13 | fugue88 | is obsolete |
| 23:23.28 | jsmith | fugue88: Beefy Miracle was so last year :-p |
| 23:23.36 | fugue88 | hangs his head in shame |
| 23:24.26 | jsmith | eightyeight: So, I'll bite. What are you running these days? |
| 23:24.46 | eightyeight | Debian GNU/Linux and Debian GNU/kfreebsd |
| 23:25.37 | eightyeight | hard to turn away from your first love. ubuntu was good for a time, but canonical has gone off the deep end imo |
| 23:26.07 | jlp_work | got to agree with you, eightyeight. unity << gnome2 |
| 23:26.10 | Tene | By my estimation, they started pretty far off the deep end. |
| 23:26.42 | eightyeight | Tene: i disagree. i thought a lot of the decisions 2004-2006 were spot on |
| 23:27.15 | Tene | I hate to tell you this, but I'm pretty sure that I'm never wrong about anything ever, so you must have been mistaken. |
| 23:27.26 | eightyeight | :) |
| 23:27.48 | Tene | eightyeight: I've long since been comfortable with my opinions and preferences being different from others. :) |
| 23:28.05 | jlp_work | after all, they are entitled to their erroneous opinions |
| 23:28.22 | eightyeight | when canonical took development from the community, and went in house ~2007, things started steering south |
| 23:28.33 | eightyeight | it's about that time they started breaking from debian upstream as well |
| 23:28.42 | fugue88 | ??? |
| 23:28.52 | Tene | eightyeight: could be that 2007 was around when I first started noticing anything about ubuntu. |
| 23:28.59 | eightyeight | firefox, the linux kernel, unity, ... |
| 23:29.06 | Tene | I don't remember the timeline very well. |
| 23:29.22 | eightyeight | many ubuntu packages no longer come out of debian sid, but are packaged in-house |
| 23:31.27 | eightyeight | unity > gnome3 though. that was a good move. |
| 23:31.49 | eightyeight | but the dash search... spyware at its core |
| 23:38.59 | fugue88 | comes back |
| 23:40.21 | fugue88 | eightyeight: So, breaking from Debian and packaging stuff in-house... so what? If Ubuntu doesn't have some packaged differences from Debian, then it's nothing more than Debian with a different install set, no? |
| 23:41.04 | Tene | Man, that's one thing that unreasonably pisses me off, people using different names for "different default package set" |
| 23:41.10 | Tene | Kubuntu, Xubuntu, etc. |
| 23:41.57 | fugue88 | And regarding Dash search, I understand the privacy concerns, however, note a few things: there are scoped searches (apps, files, etc.) and there's the "global" search, and they mean "global". Always have meant it. That global search is optional. You can search locally and never hit the global search. |
| 23:42.17 | fugue88 | Additionally, there's a privacy option, to prevent "global" search from being more global than your own system. |
| 23:42.48 | fugue88 | I agree that it ought to be opt-in rather than opt-out. |
| 23:43.01 | fugue88 | But "spyware" is taking it too far, so please stop that FUD. |
| 23:43.38 | fugue88 | If you have specific problems with it, name those problems as such. |
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| 23:51.15 | eightyeight | 1) searches are in plain text |
| 23:51.25 | eightyeight | 2) it's opt-out, and a difficult one at that |
| 23:51.52 | eightyeight | 3) users will invariably globally search for pics of their family when they intend to local search |
| 23:52.19 | eightyeight | as a result of 3, the data is sent to 3rd party servers without their consent, or knowledge. that's not FUD. that's spyware. |
| 23:52.37 | eightyeight | there is _zero_ uncertainty or doubt about the execution |
| 23:52.52 | fugue88 | opt-out is not difficult. |
| 23:52.56 | fugue88 | System settings, Privacy. |
| 23:52.58 | fugue88 | There it is. |
| 23:53.24 | eightyeight | rather than a checkbox under the search bar? |
| 23:53.46 | Tene | or an entirely separate search button? |
| 23:53.47 | fugue88 | Calling something spyware implies a few things: it's clandenstine (the user has no idea it exists), it actively prevents disablement, etc. |
| 23:54.05 | fugue88 | Using the term "syware" is definitely disingenuous or misinformed. |
| 23:54.09 | fugue88 | *spyware |
| 23:54.30 | eightyeight | it's sending personal data to servers without knowledge or consent |
| 23:54.36 | fugue88 | Yes, a checkbox under the search bar would be easier. That doesn't mean the current method is "difficult." |
| 23:54.48 | fugue88 | It displays amazon results right in front of your face. |
| 23:54.49 | eightyeight | s/difficult/hidden/ |
| 23:54.53 | fugue88 | Not hidden,. |
| 23:55.10 | eightyeight | c'mon. it's 3 menus deep |
| 23:55.17 | fugue88 | c'mon, lot's of stuff is. |
| 23:55.34 | eightyeight | and that stuff is hidden from view |
| 23:55.34 | fugue88 | btw, I count one menu. |
| 23:55.42 | fugue88 | Dash "privacy" click, there it is. |
| 23:56.01 | fugue88 | Plenty of way s to get to it. |