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| 01:12.10 | ezakimak | awesome: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=535184355831 |
| 01:13.57 | jparkton | meh, needs flash player |
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| 02:00.21 | fugue88 | A friend wants to buy an external hdd for a Mac, running OS X 10.5.8. She says she can't find any "compatible with anything less than 10.6". |
| 02:00.46 | goozbach | it should work |
| 02:00.50 | fugue88 | I can't imagine why the hdd wouldn't work though. It's just USB, supporting 2.0 and 3.0. 3 TB drive, by Seagate. |
| 02:01.14 | goozbach | diskutil would pop up to format it IIRC |
| 02:01.21 | goozbach | if it wasn't formatted properly |
| 02:01.40 | fugue88 | Cool, thanks goozbach. |
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| 02:45.14 | eightyeight | ezakimak: good stuff |
| 02:47.25 | eightyeight | typical military though. take them through some of the toughest, worst, physically and mentally daunting things in life, then abandon them |
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| 19:31.05 | youtah | great video ezakimak |
| 19:31.09 | youtah | what is DDP? |
| 19:31.40 | ezakimak | I think it's Diamond Dave Page |
| 19:31.46 | ezakimak | or something like that |
| 19:31.47 | youtah | Ah |
| 19:31.58 | youtah | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_Dallas_Page |
| 19:32.05 | ezakimak | yep |
| 19:32.16 | youtah | (took me way too many clicks via google to find this) |
| 19:34.58 | youtah | Looks legit too http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/04/arthur-boorman-veteran-walks-again-yoga_n_1478847.html |
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| 19:58.45 | manithree | I've been wanting to try YfRG |
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| 20:48.06 | programmerq | so, for anyone that's LDS in here, I've heard some members say that the word of wisdom only applies to black tea but not to green tea. Anyone here ever hear anything similar? |
| 20:48.30 | Migs | The term "hot drinks" is largely interpretive. |
| 20:48.36 | jsmith | programmerq: I've heard the opposite, but not by an authoritative source by any means... |
| 20:48.45 | Migs | I've heard that, too. I still don't drink it anyway. |
| 20:48.47 | Yorokobi | Not from any authoritative source |
| 20:51.25 | errstr | <- not mormon, but I've heard it interpreted many many ways. some of the popular ones are: 1) caffeine (so they don't drink coke, too, but some will drink herbal tea) 2) the fermentation of black tea vs not in green tea (so they'll drink green tea). 3) and just literally hot drinks |
| 20:52.13 | joshh | "uh oh that water was a bit too warm" |
| 20:52.57 | joshh | the officially written rule is just "coffee and tea", anything else is just other people's opinions |
| 20:54.09 | joshh | makes me wonder how the church converts anyone from asia, england, turkey, or basically anywhere |
| 20:54.15 | Tene | errstr: There was some kind of announcement in august, I think, clarifying that caffeine is not prohibited. |
| 20:54.32 | joshh | how do they bring it up? "so, we need to talk about another matter... that tea you're drinking... you uh, need to stop" |
| 20:54.58 | Tene | However, if I were to be interested in regular caffeine use, I'd just buy caffeine pills from amazon. |
| 20:55.03 | goozbach | joshh: it's a part of the missionary discussions |
| 20:55.26 | goozbach | when I went approx the 3rd or 4th vist |
| 20:55.49 | Yorokobi | That's the old system. |
| 20:56.04 | errstr | yeah, I'm sure it is a hard sell... "oh, btw, you know the thousands of years your culture has been drinking *, well... can't do that anymore" |
| 20:56.19 | Yorokobi | Nobody lives thousands of years. |
| 20:56.29 | joshh | i would think the word of wisdom would get an updated "revelation" at some point, considering how ridiculous it makes the church seem to many people |
| 20:56.33 | Tene | errstr: and that's different from alcohol how? |
| 20:56.52 | errstr | I said "drinking *" |
| 20:56.52 | joshh | alcohol is quite a bit different in obvious ways |
| 20:57.02 | Yorokobi | Intent: freedom from addiction |
| 20:57.12 | errstr | interpreted intent ^ |
| 20:57.17 | goozbach | there's a big problem with some chewing of a certian type of leaf in central and south amercia from what I understand |
| 20:57.32 | jsmith | goozbach: Middle east as well |
| 20:57.35 | Yorokobi | goozbach, the cocaine leaf (coca) |
| 20:57.42 | goozbach | that may be it |
| 20:57.51 | joshh | the leaf in the middle east is different |
| 20:57.57 | jsmith | goozbach: and certain pacific islands (though I don't think it's all the same leaf) |
| 20:57.59 | joshh | i wouldsn't call it a "problem" |
| 20:58.20 | joshh | it's their local version of green jello |
| 20:58.27 | joshh | except better |
| 20:59.26 | errstr | I don't know... green jello with bits of ham is a utah favorite |
| 20:59.32 | errstr | nothing beats that |
| 20:59.34 | joshh | whenever i try to explain the mormon coffee and tea thing to people, they look at me like i grew another head. can't even imagine trying to explain it as a missionary |
| 20:59.40 | goozbach | joshh: 'problem' as in it's a barrier to people who choose to join the church |
| 20:59.51 | errstr | joshh: yeah |
| 20:59.58 | joshh | even if it's legal in their country? |
| 21:00.00 | goozbach | no different than jews and ham |
| 21:00.06 | TimRiker | thinks this is a good conversation for ##lds. :) |
| 21:00.25 | Tene | thinks he'll just opt out of this conversation, as he doesn't think he can be as polite as he'd like. |
| 21:00.27 | goozbach | joshh: tea and coffee aren't illegal here |
| 21:00.27 | errstr | i've often wondered how "the drink" talk went in areas where it is culturally significant to drink those beverages |
| 21:00.37 | joshh | but the wow doesn't mention leaves |
| 21:00.47 | Jayce | errstr: goes pretty normal, just depends on the person |
| 21:01.34 | TimRiker | 8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill. |
| 21:01.36 | manithree | joshh: the WoW doesn't mention leaves? Really? |
| 21:01.52 | joshh | not from what i've read |
| 21:02.11 | joshh | just meat sparingly, hot drinks, etc |
| 21:02.15 | joshh | maybe there's more to it though |
| 21:02.19 | errstr | Jayce: ah, interesting. where did you serve? |
| 21:02.25 | Jayce | brasil |
| 21:02.28 | joshh | i doubt joseph smith knew about coca or khat |
| 21:02.33 | TimRiker | https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/89#8 |
| 21:02.34 | manithree | tobacco and wholesome herbs aren't leaves in your world? |
| 21:02.34 | joshh | or cared |
| 21:02.41 | Jayce | largest coffee producing area in the world |
| 21:02.56 | Tene | joshh: mormon doctrine is that joseph smith translated the book of mormon, not wrote it himself. |
| 21:03.14 | Tene | Oh, right, D&C |
| 21:03.18 | Jayce | also sugar cane and quite a bit of cocaine :) |
| 21:03.21 | joshh | right, with the special rocks and glasses |
| 21:03.40 | errstr | Jayce: eu morei em sao paulo e casei com uma brasileira |
| 21:03.49 | joshh | still though, the text i've seen doesn't get that specific into plants |
| 21:04.02 | joshh | i wouldn't personally think it bans khat |
| 21:04.18 | Jayce | Belo Horizonte (Minas Gerais) |
| 21:04.36 | Jayce | passei no SP e floripa a mes passada |
| 21:04.59 | TimRiker | joshh, I just posted the link to D&D 89 where it mentions tobacco specifically. If you read it then you'll know what it mentions specifically. |
| 21:05.03 | Tene | joshh: even better thatn specific lists would be general principles to use to determine how appropriate new substances are. |
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| 21:05.19 | errstr | legal, eu fui a Recife e o Rio em Junho |
| 21:05.34 | joshh | what about farmers chewing on a piece of grass? |
| 21:05.45 | Jayce | Tene: those exist, have been brought up a lot, most recently back in August or so |
| 21:05.56 | joshh | what about eating lettuce? |
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| 21:06.31 | Tene | Jayce: That's a bit after my time. |
| 21:06.41 | errstr | joshh: I think it comes down to interpretation. I don't believe anyone who says they know the exact doctrine. |
| 21:06.47 | Jayce | most recent isn't "only" :) |
| 21:06.54 | joshh | isn't it up to the church leaders to say what the actual rules ar supposed to mean? |
| 21:07.05 | errstr | joshh: we can logically see that "lettuce" is not the same as "tobacco" and it is up to you to decide that difference |
| 21:07.12 | joshh | that's why hot drinks means coffee and tea but not hot chocolate |
| 21:07.30 | joshh | basically, none of it makes any logical sense, and it's somethign i'd personally dread talking about as a missionary |
| 21:07.46 | Tene | joshh: mumble mumble faith mumble |
| 21:07.54 | Jayce | joshh: he does go into herbs/fruits/veggies/etc.. quite a bit |
| 21:08.09 | Jayce | and was quite an easy thing to talk about |
| 21:09.08 | Jayce | boiled down to the root, it says eat healthy, oh and here's things to avoid.. |
| 21:09.21 | errstr | I think looking for specifics without interpretation is too high of a bar to set for any religion. |
| 21:09.45 | manithree | errstr: logic is too high a bar for many religious ideas, also |
| 21:09.46 | joshh | it also says eat meat sparingly, but look how that's enforced |
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| 21:10.25 | errstr | is athiest, but gives religious people a break when it comes to stuff like this |
| 21:10.30 | Jayce | joshh: it sure get's brought up about ever quarter or so, so I'd say that is something they harp on.. |
| 21:10.55 | joshh | actually, this reminds me |
| 21:11.11 | joshh | a mormon a while ago told me that jesus's wine was "actually more like grape juice" |
| 21:11.16 | joshh | is there an official belief about that? |
| 21:11.18 | Tene | joshh: given that, and "All grain is good for the food of man", they really conflict with paleo diet recommendations. |
| 21:11.29 | errstr | i've heard that same thing and rolled me eyes, joshh |
| 21:11.35 | manithree | joshh: That's just opinion, but I know there are GA's who don't believe that. |
| 21:11.37 | knicholes | There's the whole thing about not eating a lot of meat, and that is hardly ever observed. |
| 21:11.52 | Jayce | joshh: that's more of a half-understood concept that people just say, not a doctrine |
| 21:12.31 | manithree | We don't claim the WoW has been in effect since the dawn of time. |
| 21:12.49 | errstr | I buy the logic of "the bible has been mistranslated" as the reason wine is there more than the lack of logic that wine was more like grape juice |
| 21:13.05 | Jayce | considering how tainted the water was back then, there were reasons for needing some fermentation |
| 21:13.07 | joshh | hard to mistranslate wine though |
| 21:13.16 | manithree | Don't even need mistranslation. |
| 21:13.18 | Jayce | but yes, the word actually translates to cover both |
| 21:13.41 | joshh | i also get the argument about the wow not being there forever, but we're talking about jesus here |
| 21:13.41 | Jayce | but no, it wasn't all alcohol free |
| 21:14.05 | manithree | joshh: so? |
| 21:14.17 | joshh | if jesus did something, you would think it's ok for everyone, at any time |
| 21:14.27 | joshh | at least i would |
| 21:14.35 | errstr | unless what he did was mistranslated |
| 21:14.48 | errstr | ^ that's the strongest argument, imo |
| 21:15.05 | programmerq | the fermentation of black tea makes sense. That's the mindset I've heard before. I couldn't remember what the difference was, but that's it. |
| 21:15.15 | Jayce | so he waited to get baptized until he was 30, I guess we should all do that too... :) |
| 21:15.32 | joshh | i don't know a lot about the translation issues, just that mormons say the bible isn't necessary translated correctly. are there actually specific passages they point to on that? |
| 21:15.34 | manithree | They had no refrigeration, no way to keep juice from fermenting, and much less access to clean water. Just because God tells us not to do something doesn't mean it's universally evil. |
| 21:15.50 | errstr | he was Jewish and didn't eat pork... but, that's another thing that most Christians do |
| 21:16.04 | programmerq | joshh: it's translation and the whole copy of a copy of a copy of a copy... |
| 21:16.11 | manithree | errstr: Ever hear of the Law of Moses? |
| 21:16.16 | Jayce | joshh: there are some that are specific yes, but also it refers to the difficulty in understanding original words that lose meaning in the change |
| 21:16.36 | Jayce | programmerq: and the selective edits and compilations along the way of course |
| 21:16.46 | programmerq | jehovah's witnesses also acknowledge this problem to a degree, last I checked. |
| 21:17.13 | manithree | Jehova's witness have their own "translation" don't they? Don't use KJV anyway, IIRC |
| 21:17.19 | programmerq | yeah |
| 21:17.27 | programmerq | I remember there was one verse just gone in their version |
| 21:17.29 | Jayce | manithree: correct, and certain verses are replaced with a '*' |
| 21:17.43 | programmerq | but then I found out it was put in by the catholic church centuries after christ |
| 21:17.45 | manithree | Jayce: How do they pronounce that? |
| 21:17.55 | programmerq | so that's why they took it back out |
| 21:18.04 | joshh | i've never known anyone who takes jehovas witnesses seriously |
| 21:18.05 | Jayce | manithree: I asked that once, quite funny :) |
| 21:18.32 | Jayce | joshh: they do.. and it's always fun when you are unwilling to get dragged into a fight with them (or 7th's) |
| 21:18.43 | errstr | I find the fight between which bible is the most correct as super interesting. I've heard arguments from many different sides and since I don't have any skin in the game, it makes for and interesting and educational conversation |
| 21:18.45 | Yorokobi | I worked with a JW for a few years. Great guy, just didn't discuss religious tenets. |
| 21:18.51 | Jayce | had a few people that would get furious because I refused to get argumentative |
| 21:19.05 | ekimatuan | Problems with translation cover anything that is fairly old. Words gain and lose meaning. The Budha said life is suffering. However, the same word may also be translated as unsatisfying. The interpretation of one word leads to differnent sects in Budhism. |
| 21:19.31 | joshh | Jayce: the only one i knew closely was basically completely kicked out of her family for not believing in it and for associating with others, they were hardcore/crazy |
| 21:19.45 | Jayce | yup, experienced that |
| 21:19.48 | Jayce | very sad |
| 21:20.05 | manithree | The JW's I met in Japan were all more hardcore and argumentative than the ones that knock on my door. |
| 21:20.40 | Jayce | manithree: that tends to happen out of the US.. especially in areas where they really are differentiating themselves |
| 21:21.01 | Jayce | in BR, most of the "evangelical" groups are very different from their US counterparts |
| 21:21.01 | manithree | Or in Utah, or maybe the Vatican |
| 21:22.37 | Jayce | now, what's really creepy is teaching a voodoo follower.. |
| 21:22.51 | Jayce | *that* was some of the more awkward discussions I've had |
| 21:23.01 | errstr | Jayce: yeah, I don't see why religious conversations have to be "fights". I talk with my friends all the time about this stuff because its interesting, even though I don't agree with them. |
| 21:23.21 | joshh | i never actually talk about religion at all with my mormon friends |
| 21:23.23 | joshh | just other stuff |
| 21:23.44 | joshh | my friends are mostly jack mormons who love drinking beer though |
| 21:23.53 | errstr | I figure that, the more we all are educated about each other, the more accepting of a society we'll be. |
| 21:24.24 | Jayce | except of you errstr, we'll always have to keep you out :-p |
| 21:24.39 | errstr | that's funny because it's true |
| 21:24.41 | joshh | now that im in CA, i don't know any mormons here... but there's a mormon church 2 blocks away, and the whole world is chinese and they speak mandarin there, according to somethign my wife looked up |
| 21:24.47 | joshh | s/world/ward |
| 21:24.57 | errstr | joshh: that's because you live in sunset |
| 21:25.16 | joshh | true |
| 21:25.17 | errstr | in that specific area of sunset |
| 21:25.21 | joshh | but she said the oakland wards were similar |
| 21:25.32 | joshh | errstr: there are only 2 churches in the city, i think |
| 21:25.37 | joshh | sunset, and over by fishermans whaf |
| 21:25.44 | Jayce | joshh: their's alternative language wards all around, even here |
| 21:26.13 | joshh | didn't know utah had any |
| 21:26.18 | joshh | at least not 100% |
| 21:26.27 | joshh | makes sense for like rose park, i guess |
| 21:26.33 | joshh | maybe wvc too |
| 21:27.06 | Jayce | joshh: heck, even in EM we have a spanish ward.. there a whole deaf stake in the valley, several other language groups have dedicated wards |
| 21:27.14 | Jayce | I know people who attend one of the portuguese ones |
| 21:27.52 | joshh | wouldn't have guessed there was a portuguese there |
| 21:28.01 | manithree | There's a Tongan ward that meets in my building here in Orem |
| 21:28.27 | resplin | joshh: I served my mission in Portugal. The conversation went like this. "My family has made this wine for generations, do you want some?" "No thank you. We don't drink alcohol." "Oh, you're missing out. Espresso?" "No, we don't drink coffee either." "Tea then?" "No thank you." "Well, WHAT DO YOU DRINK!" "Water would be great." |
| 21:28.42 | errstr | resplin: awesome |
| 21:28.46 | resplin | After that conversation, they took it as normal. Usually people didn't find it as hard to change those habits as the other ones the church requires. |
| 21:28.56 | joshh | the thing that surprised me wasn't really that there was a chinese ward here, but that it's pretty much the only one |
| 21:29.03 | resplin | Talking to people while fasting was even funnier. |
| 21:29.18 | Jayce | joshh: there probably is around there |
| 21:29.37 | joshh | Jayce: actually, there might be an english one at a different time of day |
| 21:29.42 | Jayce | resplin: we had an interesting time explaining the different of fasting in our sense vs the traditional catholic one |
| 21:29.44 | joshh | i dunno, my wife read somethign about it and mentioned it |
| 21:29.49 | resplin | But to answer your questions about the Word of Wisdom, the key tenant of Mormonism is that we believe in ongoing revelation to explain things like this. The pamphlet "For the Strength of Youth" has the best guidelines the Church currently offers. |
| 21:30.10 | resplin | And I have always though tea meant anything from the tea plant: so black and green, but herbals are fine. |
| 21:30.39 | resplin | (I mean no black and green, but herbals are fine) |
| 21:30.41 | errstr | i don't think there is any one tea plant, resplin, like there is for coffee |
| 21:30.53 | joshh | i only like green and chai |
| 21:31.07 | resplin | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camellia_sinensis |
| 21:31.15 | joshh | but i only have tea a few times a year |
| 21:31.43 | joshh | coffee though, almost every day, but only one cup |
| 21:31.54 | joshh | the people who are constantly having one cup after another all day are crazy |
| 21:32.33 | resplin | Oh, and regarding the Bible, Joseph Smith published a list of corrections called the Joseph Smith Translation or the Inspired Version. The modern LDS bible in English is the KJV with footnotes to the JST. |
| 21:32.37 | errstr | resplin: that only covers black, green, white... but there are other teas, i'm thinking of things like yerba mate |
| 21:33.10 | Jayce | matte is still considered a tea in terms of not allowed |
| 21:33.18 | Jayce | obviously one I had to deal with in BR |
| 21:33.41 | errstr | yeah, just expanding on my comment about not have "one" tea plant |
| 21:34.26 | joshh | what about iced tea and iced coffee... there's a puzzler |
| 21:34.28 | resplin | errstr: The modern guideline provided to the youth (and followed by most members) has general wording about "any addictive or habit forming substance) |
| 21:35.11 | Jayce | joshh: no, because it's still the chemicals that are bad.. don't focus so much on the letter of the law as the intent |
| 21:35.18 | Jayce | resplin: exactly |
| 21:35.23 | resplin | So herbal teas like lemon, orange, etc, are frequently used. But black and green teas are not (iced or hot). Things like mate I think fit under the other guidelines. |
| 21:35.40 | Jayce | had a GA explain exactly as such... if it's addicting, it's a problem for you.. |
| 21:35.54 | errstr | resplin: which, going back to an earlier point, is completely interpretive. for example, some of the preservatives that companies like mcdonalds use can be addictive |
| 21:36.00 | joshh | some people don't get addicted to anything |
| 21:36.05 | joshh | there are "addictive personalities" |
| 21:36.13 | resplin | True. That's why Mormon's go back so often to the idea of modern revelation. |
| 21:36.16 | joshh | i don't have one myself |
| 21:36.16 | Jayce | errstr: and those are taught as such |
| 21:36.30 | resplin | And personal revelation. |
| 21:36.42 | joshh | resplin: and my original thign was that i think the wow should get a modern relevation to update it |
| 21:36.48 | joshh | especially since everyone knows tea is super healthy now |
| 21:36.57 | Jayce | except when it's not :) |
| 21:37.07 | joshh | when is that? |
| 21:37.09 | Jayce | joshh: it's regularly discussed in modern terms in the church |
| 21:37.23 | resplin | Latest update was last spring: https://www.lds.org/youth/for-the-strength-of-youth/physical-and-emotional-health?lang=eng |
| 21:38.02 | errstr | things like tea and wine have healthly properties, things like soda do not. seems like a reasonable thing to revisit |
| 21:38.06 | resplin | Anyway, there are lots of people who don't agree with the concepts behind the Mormon health code, and that's just fine. I just thought I could help answer the question. |
| 21:38.47 | errstr | at least it seems reasonable to me |
| 21:39.19 | manithree | The WoW isn't just a health code. |
| 21:39.38 | joshh | it seems like as a religion, the actual teachings of the church are fine, even the god/planet stuff, compared to other religions |
| 21:39.50 | Jayce | errstr: which is why people often point to the tobacco line in the WoW.. there are reasonable uses.. just not necessarily the popular way |
| 21:39.54 | joshh | and the embarrassing history is all water under the bridge too |
| 21:40.11 | joshh | but the rules are pretty goofy, especially by modern standards, from an outside view |
| 21:40.20 | joshh | garments, tea, etc |
| 21:40.37 | Jayce | that discussion is most often used in terms of medicine, good when used correctly, bad when not, we need to learn more |
| 21:40.43 | joshh | i can't imagine the church being culturally significant in a few more generations unless that changes |
| 21:40.54 | joshh | same with gay marriage |
| 21:40.57 | Jayce | joshh: so it's goofy to everybody because you see it that way? :) |
| 21:41.11 | joshh | Jayce: and to everyone who hears that i'm from utah and asks about it |
| 21:41.32 | Jayce | joshh: and yet I have also known many to see the exact opposite, some join, some don't.. |
| 21:41.40 | resplin | That's been said about many religions that are thousands of years old: won't be culturally significant unless they change. Yet often it's the culture that stops being significant. |
| 21:41.53 | errstr | Jayce: I always figured that mormonism was good at changing its mind on things for the better... (black men and the preisthood, for example), it would be interesting to see if - with conclusive evidence - the church's stance on tea would change |
| 21:41.55 | Jayce | but yes, the "peculiar people" holds true, and we can be proud to actually believe what we believe |
| 21:42.05 | manithree | religions aren't businesses targeting their markets |
| 21:43.01 | Jayce | errstr: drinking just regular tea isn't going to, but using tea's properties through other means is fine.. just like medicine.. that's what is tough |
| 21:43.03 | Jayce | taught.. |
| 21:43.11 | Jayce | ugh, too many conversations at once while working :) |
| 21:43.14 | errstr | heh |
| 21:43.15 | joshh | manithree: except sometimes they are |
| 21:43.21 | errstr | yeah, my lunch bled into work time |
| 21:43.40 | manithree | Some are. Real religions aren't. |
| 21:43.47 | joshh | it's not like blacks would ahve gotten the priesthood if racism and segregation were still normal |
| 21:44.11 | errstr | interesting discussion, though. |
| 21:44.38 | errstr | programmerq: did you realize what you were starting ? |
| 21:44.51 | joshh | the mormon church even acknowledges that it updates for modern cultural sensibilities |
| 21:45.01 | joshh | it jsut hasn't gotten around to embracing gay marriage yet |
| 21:45.06 | joshh | maybe in 10 years |
| 21:45.18 | manithree | So when Jesus only taught the Jews, but then the apostles went to the Gentiles, you think that was caused by outside forces, or marketing? |
| 21:45.59 | errstr | imagines Jesus using an obama-campaign-like targetting system |
| 21:46.04 | errstr | chuckles |
| 21:46.23 | joshh | im not much of a history buff when it comes to religion, but my understanding is that christianity didn't get big until constantine marketed it around rome or something |
| 21:47.00 | manithree | That's irrelevant to my question |
| 21:47.14 | joshh | i have no clue who jesus or apostles taught to |
| 21:47.19 | joshh | but there was definitely a lot of marketing |
| 21:47.29 | joshh | that's why we have christmas, so it would be more palatable to pagans |
| 21:48.03 | manithree | As if Christmas has anything to do with religion any more. |
| 21:48.05 | Jayce | yeah, that's about a thousand year gap there :) |
| 21:48.12 | joshh | the mormons are also doign marketing online and on tv |
| 21:48.22 | joshh | i'vef seen their ads |
| 21:48.36 | errstr | me too |
| 21:48.39 | Jayce | joshh: but, do we change our message to fit a poll? or present what we are in all our wierdness ? |
| 21:48.43 | joshh | "look how awesome this nice young family looks that goes to this church" |
| 21:49.13 | errstr | Jayce: I don't think those ads present the weirdness, nor to fit a poll |
| 21:49.29 | joshh | Jayce: to be honest, there's a lot of whitewashing the history/hiding or ignoring the weirdness that goes on |
| 21:49.30 | errstr | they are to make people feel more comfortable with Mormons |
| 21:49.51 | fungus | I know i'm gonna get lynched for this. But yeah, they have changed their message to fit a poll: Polygamy and African-Americans holding the priesthood. |
| 21:49.54 | joshh | i just ask, why not take that further and ditch the rules that make no sense? |
| 21:49.59 | errstr | and hopefully open up discussion with potential new converts |
| 21:50.06 | joshh | eventually, they probably will |
| 21:50.10 | resplin | I don't think it's fair to call it whitewashing history. Mormons have become less weird, but we put a lot of effort into preserving our past instead of hiding it. |
| 21:50.28 | errstr | fungus: from what I understand, polygamy is still part of the religion, it is just that they respect the law of the country they reside in |
| 21:50.39 | errstr | fungus: so that never changed |
| 21:50.40 | joshh | at some point, the guys in portugal will say ya know, we really don't want to shut down our family winery that's been making wine for generations |
| 21:50.47 | manithree | I'm not saying religions don't market. Just that doctrine isn't determined by marketing |
| 21:51.12 | fungus | errstr, but the message they teach to others has changed. You don't find out about celestial polygamy until much later in the conversion process. |
| 21:51.19 | resplin | fungus: That's a reasonable interpretation of the events, but it isn't the one that the participants in the events adhered to. |
| 21:51.21 | manithree | or whatever is the current fad |
| 21:51.36 | errstr | fungus: that's true of almost everything though... rarely do you understand it all on your first conversation |
| 21:51.44 | errstr | it's true of almost anything in life |
| 21:52.00 | resplin | But yes, the way the religion is practiced has evolved along with the culture it's practiced in. |
| 21:52.04 | joshh | catholics are even talking about ditchign celibacy now, at least somewhat |
| 21:52.24 | jalbretsen | I see we are on topic today |
| 21:52.30 | resplin | Anyway, it's been fun. I always enjoy the multi-cultural conversations in this channel. But I still have a deadline to meet before I can leave work today. |
| 21:52.45 | joshh | good luck resplin :) |
| 21:52.48 | *** part/#utah manithree (~blr@li4-76.members.linode.com) |
| 21:52.54 | errstr | goes back to coding |
| 21:53.01 | joshh | goes back to reddit |
| 21:53.12 | joshh | it is friday afternoon |
| 21:58.19 | unum | actually christmas originally had nothing to do with christianity |
| 21:58.37 | unum | and as any good mormon can tell you Christ was born in April |
| 21:59.18 | unum | on know I see that was mentioned |
| 21:59.27 | unum | ahh constantine.... |
| 22:11.18 | resplin | can't . . . re . . . sist |
| 22:11.29 | resplin | Really interesting article on dating the birth of Christ: |
| 22:11.32 | resplin | https://byustudies.byu.edu/showTitle.aspx?title=8651 |
| 22:12.45 | resplin | tl;dr: BYU professor looks at lots of evidence and decides it was December of 5BC. |
| 22:13.00 | resplin | (Obviously he could be wrong.) |
| 22:13.20 | mahelious | no, my seminary teacher told me that D&C 20:1 was JS telling us all that Jesus' brithday was April 6th |
| 22:13.36 | mahelious | hah |
| 22:13.56 | Migs | awww, Brother Chadwick |
| 22:13.58 | Migs | I miss him |
| 22:14.32 | Migs | he was my favorite Institute teacher before he moved to BYU |
| 22:16.21 | jsmith | Didn't the pope just say it was 3BC? |
| 22:16.24 | jsmith | stirs the pot |
| 22:16.34 | Migs | I'm going out on a limb here and saying it was 20BC |
| 22:17.16 | Jayce | no, it was 0... we're just at the wrong date on our end... |
| 22:17.19 | Jayce | :) |
| 22:17.24 | Migs | good point |
| 22:17.53 | Jayce | I mean if the gregorian calendar is based off the birth of christ... that is the fixed point |
| 22:23.57 | unum | I read nonlds indicating a spring birth |
| 22:24.32 | unum | ther is no 0. the guy that made it up (in the 3rd century or something like that) didn't know how to count |
| 22:29.10 | Gate | I think we need to convert to a metric calendar, and clock.... |
| 22:29.34 | Gate | http://xkcd.com/927/ |
| 22:32.19 | unum | I agree |
| 22:32.25 | unum | and no daylight savings time |
| 22:33.47 | Gate | Right |
| 22:35.23 | eightyeight | ZFS Intent Log ftw |
| 22:35.29 | eightyeight | good gravy |
| 22:35.57 | eightyeight | i just watch disk write latencies go from an average of 5 seconds to 400 miliseconds |
| 22:36.02 | eightyeight | that's a full order of magnitude |
| 22:36.08 | eightyeight | good night! |
| 22:36.17 | eightyeight | ZIL on SSD, that is |
| 22:36.54 | eightyeight | i wonder what this will do for VM migration |
| 22:38.28 | Gate | Imagine a world where a hour is just a decasecond, a day is a kilosecond, a week is a megasecond, a month a gigasecond.... sigh |
| 22:38.58 | Gate | and the only real wonkiness would be matching it up with with solar years |
| 22:40.50 | Gate | hm, I missed a level |
| 22:41.41 | Tene | Gate: 1000 days in a week? 1000 weeks in a month? |
| 22:42.05 | Yorokobi | Time is relative |
| 22:52.04 | Tene | I think I'm missing something. :) |
| 22:52.43 | TimRiker | need to change the earths rotation to be a 1000s of it's orbit first |
| 22:53.56 | TimRiker | "8 hour" days. hmm. maybe 100/th an orbit would be better? not sure I could stay awake that long |
| 22:54.28 | TimRiker | ~convert 365.24 days to hours |
| 22:54.28 | unum | I think I saw a 36 hour day schedule once..... |
| 22:55.16 | TimRiker | ~convert 1 year to hours |
| 22:55.23 | TimRiker | :) |
| 22:55.26 | Gate | Tene: yeah, I'm too used to working with bytes that skip 100 and 10,000 |
| 22:56.14 | TimRiker | 1000 days in a year. 100 days in a month 10 days in a week |
| 22:56.15 | Tene | whaaa? |
| 22:56.31 | Gate | I personally think we need to decouple standardized time from solar measurements. For instance, Martian days and years have nothing to do with earth days and years |
| 22:57.11 | TimRiker | Gate, that does make this question harder: what time with the sun come up tomorrow? |
| 22:57.21 | TimRiker | s/with/will/ |
| 22:57.22 | Tene | Gate: Let's start by dropping time zones. |
| 22:57.31 | Tene | One step at a time. |
| 22:57.33 | TimRiker | UTC rox! |
| 22:57.50 | TimRiker | ~time |
| 22:57.51 | ibot | You cannot understand nature's perfect time cube! (2012.11.30 22:57:51 GMT) |
| 22:59.22 | youtah | Sound Off: Do you see LGA 2011 replacing the 1155? (aka more and more 2011 mobos showing up on the market, and fewer and fewer 1155 mobos?) |
| 22:59.47 | Gate | hasn't paid any attention to mobos in 3 years |
| 22:59.59 | youtah | Wow. I missed a huge convo. Sorry guys, TL; DR |
| 23:00.27 | Gate | I predict the supremacy of a quantumn processor at some point in the future (and this is vauge enough to be accurate, yay!) |
| 23:00.41 | programmerq | errstr: I had an inkling as to what I was starting. Usually it stays fairly civil in here though, and there were some interesting discussions points brought up. |
| 23:00.42 | youtah | Ha |
| 23:01.26 | programmerq | http://youtu.be/wxDqRy9bhtc |
| 23:01.32 | programmerq | that was what happened at work this morning. |
| 23:01.37 | TimRiker | Gate, I predict the quantum processor becoming obsolete |
| 23:01.43 | Gate | Tene: so here's a conundrum, how do you measure time on an asteroid colonym where a "solar day" might be an earth hour |
| 23:01.49 | Gate | TimRiker: Concur |
| 23:02.08 | Gate | I would *love* to see what we replace it with ,but I doubt I'll last that long. |
| 23:02.22 | Gate | the MTBF on the human body is still awefully low |
| 23:02.23 | youtah | Quantum Solar Day Procs |
| 23:02.25 | youtah | I like it |
| 23:03.04 | youtah | has a wedding to attend. |
| 23:03.13 | youtah | will smell ya'll L8R |
| 23:04.00 | youtah | Wish me luck |
| 23:04.15 | youtah | my cousin is marrying a cage fighter |
| 23:04.18 | Gate | luck... are you the groom or just looking for a date? |
| 23:04.24 | youtah | neither |
| 23:04.29 | Gate | ;) |
| 23:04.32 | youtah | :-) |
| 23:04.46 | youtah | He is marrying a cage fighter. When I took her bridals |
| 23:05.00 | youtah | I had to photoshop out all the bruises around her knuckles / arms |
| 23:05.11 | Gate | wait, SHE is a cage fighter? |
| 23:05.14 | youtah | Yes |
| 23:05.17 | Gate | that's a whole different picture |
| 23:05.25 | youtah | (I get free tickets to the Showdown fights) |
| 23:05.53 | youtah | buwa ha ha ha |
| 23:05.59 | youtah | okay, but seriously though... gotta jet |
| 23:06.02 | youtah | L8R |
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