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| 17:27.11 | unum | ok I have some time to kill so I want to make sure I have this straight |
| 17:28.12 | unum | the treasury prints the money and gives them to the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve. Any money money they give to the board is counted as Public Debt. |
| 17:28.48 | *** part/#utah dfinn (~Adium@66.97.133.7) |
| 17:29.02 | unum | the Board then turns around and lends that money out to the private regional Federal Reserve banks at the interest rate that is always talked about |
| 17:29.47 | unum | so all the money in my bank account is actually borrowed from the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve by someone who is pay interest to them. |
| 17:31.17 | unum | Also right now I could use money that has been borrowed from the board of governors of the federal reserve to buy a treasury bond at a lower interest rate than the one set by the board so that government is actually making morey money off me than thay are paying me on the bond? |
| 17:31.36 | unum | Kruegman talks about that last part a lot but I never understood it until our discussion the other day |
| 17:31.49 | unum | I always forget that half the debt is currency in circulation |
| 17:32.37 | ezakimak | and about half of our income taxes goes towards the debt service on it |
| 17:32.45 | ezakimak | but that's just a small piece of the problem |
| 17:33.03 | ezakimak | debt backed currency occurs in two ways |
| 17:33.28 | ezakimak | 1) the us treasury is effectively borrowing physical bills from the central bank, at interest, to circulate |
| 17:34.13 | ezakimak | 2) the money supply is increased, out of thin air, when someone takes out a loan--the *loan document* (eg, promise to pay) is a debt note, and is what backs the creation of the balance for the loan written into their account |
| 17:35.00 | ezakimak | because the banking system is essentially a closed loop, that money will be deposited into someone else's account, etc. |
| 17:35.39 | ezakimak | thus the *banks* have power over the money supply by their ability to write loans (or deny them) |
| 17:36.01 | Gate | :/ I just proved that my applications "error rate" is because security firms are scraping my site for malware without sending the same headers as the users they are scraping us for |
| 17:36.21 | ezakimak | the root problem with debt-backed money, however, is that only the money for the principal is created through this process, *not* the money needed to repay the interest also |
| 17:37.17 | unum | ezakimak: that's different from my understanding. the treasury does not borrow the money from the central bank to circulate, the regional banks do |
| 17:37.23 | ezakimak | so, in order for the borrower to repay in full, they have to aquire more money somewhere--yet the supply does not exist for every borrower |
| 17:37.33 | unum | and the regional banks pay that interest rate, and it is payed to the treasury(eventually) |
| 17:37.40 | ezakimak | i said "effectively" how it's on the books |
| 17:37.52 | ezakimak | that's all hand waving |
| 17:38.07 | ezakimak | did you ever watch that video i posted? it explains all of this quite clearly |
| 17:38.09 | unum | but the treasury does not pay the interest, that part is important |
| 17:38.24 | unum | ezakimak: the video is wrong |
| 17:38.40 | unum | the video does a lot of hand waving |
| 17:38.51 | unum | well mis direction rather |
| 17:39.14 | ezakimak | are we talking about the same video? |
| 17:39.17 | ezakimak | where is it wrong? |
| 17:39.32 | unum | give the link again and I'll give you exact times where it is wrong |
| 17:39.37 | *** join/#utah pashdown (freenode@peteashdown.org) |
| 17:40.24 | unum | the interest on the loans from the central bank actually go back to the treasury |
| 17:40.40 | unum | the claim that that currency is debt really just seems to be a hold over from the gold standard |
| 17:41.18 | unum | so the treasury actually makes money by selling bonds because the money to buy the bond is borrowed at a higher interest rate than the bond pays |
| 17:41.47 | unum | and the treasury gets the money from the money being borrowed to buy the bond |
| 17:43.02 | ezakimak | http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2550156453790090544 |
| 17:49.57 | unum | ok I was thinking of a different video, but so far I don't see what this has to do with what we were arguing |
| 17:50.05 | unum | does it ever get to that? |
| 17:50.07 | ezakimak | yes |
| 17:50.50 | pashdown | wait a second, are we arguing politics in #utah again!?!? |
| 17:51.01 | ezakimak | it's not political |
| 17:51.08 | pashdown | oh, ok whew |
| 17:59.18 | unum | at 12:22 he shows the US debt at $45 trillion in 2006, where is that coming from? |
| 17:59.50 | unum | think I found nm |
| 18:01.13 | unum | though it doesn't make sense to me that you would count long term medicare debt when talking about the finance system, but what ever |
| 18:02.39 | unum | at 12:38 - fractional reserve limits essentially arbitrary? that's more than debatable |
| 18:15.16 | unum | the creator seems to be conceding that he may be wrong: http://paulgrignon.netfirms.com/MoneyasDebt/disputed_information.html |
| 18:15.40 | unum | but since millions of people have already seen this incorrect video I'll just leave it up and place a not that no one will see..... |
| 18:16.03 | unum | the part he is wrong about is at 15:0 |
| 18:16.06 | unum | 15:10 |
| 18:16.26 | ezakimak | i'm ahead at 28 |
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| 18:20.16 | unum | well did you see my link where the creator of the video said he may be wrong |
| 18:20.26 | ezakimak | i'm reading it |
| 18:21.48 | unum | of course right now there is more cash in the economy than there is demand for cash |
| 18:29.19 | unum | at 18:40 he claims 95% of money is commericial bank money everything I'm seeing seems to indicate that currently 0% of our economy is currently commercial bank money |
| 18:29.36 | unum | maybe I'm reading the data wrong, but that's what it looks like to me |
| 18:32.33 | fugue88 | unum: I don't know how you can *read* those notes and walk away with the idea that the author is conceding "he may be wrong." |
| 18:33.26 | fugue88 | He acknowledges two points that are highly contended, says he'll remove one from the next version of the video b/c its detail isn't what's important, then proceeds to back up his original claims. |
| 18:33.31 | ezakimak | i'm still reading it, almost done, but so far his explanations seem quite clear that there is no fundamental problem |
| 18:34.09 | ezakimak | he clarifies how and why he simplified, under what circumstances the simplification holds and when it doesn't hold exactly, and clarifies the actual point he was making |
| 18:35.10 | ezakimak | and i agree with his reasoning for choosing to simplify--it's already hard to get people to watch in the first place, let alone have it too detailed and lose attention |
| 18:37.14 | unum | he admits it may be "misleading" |
| 18:37.30 | unum | but anyways when I posted that I thought he was going a different direction with the argument |
| 18:37.34 | unum | it doesn't really matter |
| 18:37.37 | ezakimak | that article actually clarifies the problem very nicely down towards the end |
| 18:37.59 | unum | anyways everything I find indicates that currently the US has 0 commercial bank money |
| 18:38.04 | unum | he says 95% |
| 18:38.11 | unum | not us but overall |
| 18:39.10 | ezakimak | the point of his presentation is not to be 100% accurate on details, but to explain the system itself, why it will fail, and the general nature of the problem itself |
| 18:40.51 | unum | there's our guy eccles |
| 18:41.34 | unum | he makes the true point that the government can't just pay off their debt |
| 18:41.48 | ezakimak | thanks for posting that article, i hadn't seen it before |
| 18:50.09 | unum | at 28:41 he talks about governments borrowing moneys from private banks |
| 18:50.16 | unum | that's not what happens in the US |
| 18:50.30 | unum | government borrows money from the government |
| 18:50.41 | unum | and sells treasury bonds |
| 18:50.43 | unum | it does both |
| 18:51.10 | unum | but that's not the same as borrowing from private banks |
| 18:51.32 | unum | it also borrows from social programs to pay for military programs, well it used to that stopped a few years ago |
| 18:52.16 | unum | that's where it's wrong, at least in the US case |
| 18:53.11 | unum | the treasury prints the money and gives it the board of governors of the federal reserves and calls it debt |
| 18:53.29 | unum | the board of governors lends that money out and collects interest on it |
| 18:53.37 | unum | which it then pays back to the treasury |
| 18:53.59 | unum | now some people will borrow money from the banks to by treasury bonds |
| 18:54.30 | unum | but since the bank is borrowing from the federal reserve at a higher interest rate then the treasury bond is paying the government actually makes money |
| 18:54.47 | unum | so it's the opposite of what this guy claims |
| 18:55.44 | unum | also the video is wrong is saying that the money supply can not grow faster than the economy it does so all the time it's called inflation |
| 18:56.03 | unum | a small amount of inflation is always aimed for by the board for that exact reason |
| 18:56.10 | unum | econmics 101 |
| 18:56.13 | unum | atleast it was at USU |
| 18:56.18 | unum | before they went to semesters..... |
| 19:03.56 | unum | he's completely wrong about the money supply and economy being tied |
| 19:04.18 | unum | the money supply is intentionally increased faster than the economy grows for the exact reasons he mentions |
| 19:04.49 | unum | with our current system we are locked into intentially creating a small amount of inflation, but not perpetual growth |
| 19:07.36 | ezakimak | well, if you know more about it and understand it better than him, more power to you |
| 19:11.24 | unum | not sure why I should think an artist should know more about economics that my university ecnomics professor, but I gave the video a watch, and it's wrong |
| 19:11.28 | unum | and I told you why |
| 19:11.43 | unum | the debt is not owned to a private bank it's owned to a federal agency |
| 19:11.49 | unum | the same thing I said before |
| 19:12.07 | fungus | ezakimak, but if he is claiming facts that are not true, those should always be called out. And if the author of this video doesn't issue a correction, it would be irresponsible to watch it. |
| 19:12.50 | ezakimak | i thought his clarification article was adequate at explaining. |
| 19:12.54 | unum | there is also the bit about inflation which I didn't state before, but that's exactly as it was explained to me in school, no big secret |
| 19:12.56 | fungus | or at least irresponsible to use the video to influence your views |
| 19:13.20 | unum | he clarifies that one part about the reserve ratio |
| 19:13.36 | ezakimak | unum, what school of economics did your prof align with? |
| 19:13.37 | unum | he makes a general statement about government borrowing from private banks, that is not true in the US case |
| 19:13.41 | unum | may be true in others |
| 19:13.55 | ezakimak | but it is absolutely true in the US case, you just don't want to believe it |
| 19:14.56 | ezakimak | the president of the US, the very same one that *signed* the fed reserve act stated it is so (and regretted it) |
| 19:15.40 | ezakimak | i should think he understood how it worked and the ramifications of it |
| 19:16.22 | fugue88 | ezakimak: Oh really? I assumed it was like obamacare---we'd have to pass it to see what's in it! ;) |
| 19:17.20 | unum | fugue88: it did pass |
| 19:17.27 | fugue88 | unum: I know. |
| 19:17.30 | fugue88 | unum: It was a joke. |
| 19:18.05 | unum | ezakimak: which federal reserve act which president, and what's the quote? |
| 19:18.56 | unum | and if i remember correctly he was a saltwater school |
| 19:19.56 | unum | ezakimak: what would it take to prove the board of governors is a federal agency? |
| 19:20.06 | ezakimak | you back on that again? |
| 19:20.10 | unum | name any piece of evidence I could show you |
| 19:20.15 | unum | ezakimak: that's the entire argument |
| 19:20.19 | ezakimak | then it's weak. |
| 19:20.23 | unum | I don't know why we keep wasting time with anything else |
| 19:20.32 | ezakimak | because that's a straw man |
| 19:20.38 | unum | how so? |
| 19:20.53 | ezakimak | it isn't relevant to how things work in practice |
| 19:21.04 | ezakimak | you can label a pig zebra, but it's still a pig |
| 19:21.25 | ezakimak | and it still wallows in the mud rather than frolic on the plains |
| 19:21.45 | ezakimak | what does it actually *do*, how does it *behave* |
| 19:21.47 | ezakimak | that is what matters |
| 19:22.03 | unum | I thought where the money went is what mattered |
| 19:22.12 | unum | that's what the video was saysing |
| 19:22.19 | ezakimak | it's not who's on the board, how they got there, but what they get away with doing |
| 19:22.24 | unum | when a federal reserve note is lent out, who collects the interest |
| 19:22.32 | unum | that's what I thought mattered |
| 19:22.33 | ezakimak | what the entire system as a whole does, how it operates |
| 19:22.55 | ezakimak | right. so why bring it back to the trivial technicality of "but the board of governers is a federal agency" |
| 19:23.20 | unum | so who collects the interest on the federal reserve notes is what matters? |
| 19:23.25 | ezakimak | the net result is that the federal reserve system is a system of *private* banks w/o gov't oversight |
| 19:23.55 | ezakimak | http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/19-reasons-why-the-federal-reserve-is-at-the-heart-of-our-economic-problems |
| 19:23.56 | ezakimak | #3 |
| 19:24.02 | ezakimak | sorry. #4 |
| 19:24.27 | ezakimak | ok, so they return $78.4 billion of $80.9 billion in profit. |
| 19:24.40 | ezakimak | don't forget, that's still $2.5 billion in profit they kept... |
| 19:24.51 | ezakimak | but the rest of the argument stands as well, and more importantly |
| 19:25.09 | ezakimak | it's not about the fed reserve bank *directly*, but the system of bankers that it supports |
| 19:25.49 | ezakimak | the fed reserve bank is the key piece enabling all of them and the entire monetary system, which allows all the bankers to profit immensely |
| 19:27.01 | fungus | $2.5b of $80.9b is only 3%, and that's 3% of profits, not revenues. Sounds like a pretty reasonable fee for costs of operations. |
| 19:27.02 | ezakimak | did you read all of that article you posted? the last half explained some things further quite well |
| 19:27.46 | ezakimak | if it's profit, costs have already been paid for |
| 19:28.19 | unum | 6% dividend |
| 19:28.29 | ezakimak | dividend to whom? |
| 19:28.36 | fungus | So, private institutions shouldn't make any profit for themselves? |
| 19:28.50 | ezakimak | i never said that |
| 19:29.15 | unum | to the owners of the regional banks |
| 19:29.21 | ezakimak | it's just further proof that the fed is *private* |
| 19:29.36 | unum | ok they make money off of it |
| 19:29.37 | ezakimak | if it wasn't private, it wouldn't keep *any* profit |
| 19:29.39 | unum | no argument here |
| 19:29.48 | unum | the 12 regional banks are private |
| 19:29.52 | unum | no one ever disputed that |
| 19:29.54 | ezakimak | yes indeed |
| 19:30.06 | unum | I don't know why you keep arguing about it |
| 19:30.17 | ezakimak | you brought it up, not me |
| 19:31.13 | unum | I said the board is a government agency |
| 19:31.25 | ezakimak | you claim that the us does not borrow money from a private bank |
| 19:31.36 | ezakimak | in fact, you said that it borrows from itself! |
| 19:31.46 | ezakimak | why would any entity borrow from itself at interest??? |
| 19:32.09 | unum | the federal government does it all the time |
| 19:32.15 | unum | a bunch of my coworkers do it too |
| 19:32.24 | ezakimak | from themselves? at interest? |
| 19:32.26 | unum | they borrow from their 401k with interest |
| 19:32.28 | unum | yep |
| 19:33.40 | ezakimak | i can see how that might work |
| 19:33.54 | ezakimak | but fundamentally, regarding cash money supply, it does not make sense to do so |
| 19:34.36 | ezakimak | it doesn't matter who prints the bills, the net effect is that a bill in circulation is a private bank note, borrowed from the fed resere private banking system, at interest |
| 19:35.04 | unum | and most of that interest is paid back to the treasury |
| 19:35.18 | unum | with 6% going to the people that run the regional banks |
| 19:35.32 | ezakimak | the fact that the interest is owed *at all* is a problem |
| 19:35.44 | unum | I don't see why |
| 19:35.45 | ezakimak | we shouldn't owe interest on physical currency |
| 19:36.14 | unum | but it's an other vector of profit for the government |
| 19:36.15 | ezakimak | if the us issued their own, not debt-backed, that portion of the interest would not be owed, and no profit would be siphoned away |
| 19:36.28 | ezakimak | but it's not |
| 19:36.41 | ezakimak | not when any portion (6%, whatever) is siphoned away by a private entity |
| 19:38.18 | ezakimak | the 2nd part of that article you posted explains it quite clearly |
| 19:43.08 | *** join/#utah utlemming (~ben@91.224.174.71) |
| 19:57.59 | unum | that's dealt with through inflation |
| 19:58.13 | unum | it is sustainable even in a flat economy |
| 19:58.26 | unum | I mean an economy that is not producing new goods |
| 19:58.45 | unum | that doesn't seem right..... |
| 19:58.48 | ezakimak | so one w/no waste? |
| 19:58.55 | ezakimak | and only exchanging services? |
| 19:59.04 | unum | yes |
| 19:59.11 | ezakimak | there are *always* consumibles |
| 19:59.23 | ezakimak | so you either produce them, or import them |
| 19:59.24 | unum | with out introducing new natural resources other than enegery I should say |
| 19:59.39 | ezakimak | ok, so using sustainable food and energy |
| 19:59.42 | unum | his whole argument is that it will collapse when we run out of natural resources |
| 19:59.51 | unum | but that we're fine until then |
| 19:59.58 | unum | we'll continue to be fine after that |
| 20:00.12 | ezakimak | sure, after the dust settles, we survived the great depression on the whole |
| 20:00.19 | ezakimak | some individuals did not |
| 20:00.42 | unum | since the institution of the modern fed, we have not had a depression, prior to the modern fed they happened every 30 years or so |
| 20:00.43 | ezakimak | but we didn't run out of natural resources then, just money |
| 20:00.57 | ezakimak | that is not true |
| 20:00.58 | unum | by modern fed I mean after eccles ran it |
| 20:01.02 | unum | not the 1912 act |
| 20:01.17 | ezakimak | fine "depression" |
| 20:01.20 | ezakimak | *define |
| 20:01.34 | ezakimak | there have been many |
| 20:01.39 | ezakimak | and all bank controlled |
| 20:02.47 | unum | a decline in real GDP exceeding 10% |
| 20:03.07 | unum | there have been many recesions intentially caused by the fed, that is correct |
| 20:03.15 | unum | that's what they do |
| 20:03.22 | unum | pretty much the entire purpose of the fed |
| 20:03.49 | unum | don't know why you keep trying to argue that with me, I keep agreeing with you |
| 20:03.51 | ezakimak | you realize why they create recessions? |
| 20:04.01 | unum | to prevent bubbles |
| 20:04.05 | ezakimak | it transfers the real wealth (capital assets) to the bankers |
| 20:04.22 | ezakimak | by calling in loans (foreclosures), they assume ownership of the collateral |
| 20:04.29 | unum | I guess we'll have to disagree there |
| 20:04.41 | ezakimak | rinse repeat |
| 20:04.58 | ezakimak | who now owns the majority of land? the banks do |
| 20:05.48 | unum | do you sincerly believe there was a time in this country where a majority of Americans actually owned land? |
| 20:06.30 | unum | and by that I mean owned it outright |
| 20:08.58 | unum | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_United_States |
| 20:09.07 | unum | I guess there was a short depression in 1945 |
| 20:09.08 | ezakimak | the us govt gave out or sold land to citizens and companies |
| 20:09.26 | unum | they only have it out in the west |
| 20:09.30 | ezakimak | you can still homestead in alaska even today |
| 20:09.51 | unum | and still only to a handfull of people |
| 20:10.07 | unum | most americans did not own land |
| 20:10.22 | unum | most were servant who lived with the land owners |
| 20:10.40 | ezakimak | i don't claim that most citizens owned land |
| 20:10.51 | ezakimak | i claim that most land was owned by citizens--not banks originally |
| 20:11.00 | ezakimak | or the govt |
| 20:11.29 | ezakimak | but now, it's the banks, govt, and a few wealthy entities |
| 20:12.11 | unum | that's my point, it was owned by a few wealthy entities |
| 20:12.15 | unum | it's always been that way |
| 20:12.39 | unum | anyways I see I was wrong about the frequency of depression prior to the modern fed they were every 5-10 years |
| 20:14.15 | ezakimak | http://www.wnd.com/2012/04/who-owns-the-west/ |
| 20:14.18 | ezakimak | very interesting about utah |
| 20:16.08 | unum | such a waste of money |
| 20:16.19 | unum | you want to talk about government waste let's talk about that bill |
| 20:16.27 | unum | $3 million just on Utah's side |
| 20:16.37 | unum | then there's the amount the federal government will have to spend |
| 20:16.58 | unum | and who get's rich lawyers(I bet it's Orrin Hatch's son again) |
| 20:17.17 | unum | I told my state rep he was ignorant for sponsoring that bill |
| 20:17.28 | unum | he admitted he didn't bother reading anything about it |
| 20:17.44 | ezakimak | they rarely do |
| 20:17.59 | ezakimak | i'd hazard a guess that most legislation is hardly read by those who actually vote on it |
| 20:18.04 | unum | ezakimak: that has not been my experience prior to this gcuy |
| 20:18.12 | unum | at least on the state level |
| 20:18.16 | unum | state bills aren't that long |
| 20:18.34 | ezakimak | i saw a petition somewhere a while ago that was asking for all bills in congress to be publicly read before voting |
| 20:18.50 | unum | kind of impratical on the federal level |
| 20:18.54 | ezakimak | so many riders, and special clauses |
| 20:18.59 | unum | ya |
| 20:19.02 | ezakimak | well, that's a symptom of a different problem |
| 20:19.08 | unum | but anyways that was a really bad bill |
| 20:19.20 | ezakimak | i need to learn about un article 21 |
| 20:19.39 | ezakimak | er agenda 21 |
| 20:19.47 | unum | I don't understand why people aren't mad about them blowing through $3 million just to throw a tantrum |
| 20:20.28 | ezakimak | i've no doubt they've wasted more for less |
| 20:23.46 | unum | ezakimak: utah? |
| 20:24.05 | unum | utah's usually pretty good with their money except when it comes to throwing tantrums against the federal government |
| 20:24.16 | unum | the weird thing is they only throw these tantrums when a democrat is in office |
| 20:24.22 | ezakimak | iirc utah is one of the few states w/a balanced budget |
| 20:24.37 | unum | no cared about this for the 8 years of the Bush adiminstration |
| 20:24.44 | ezakimak | ooh. i hate the campaign party finger pointing. |
| 20:24.45 | unum | most states have balanced budgets |
| 20:24.59 | unum | it's actually party of most state constitutions |
| 20:26.44 | ezakimak | true, i had forgot that |
| 20:27.31 | unum | forcing state,county, and cities agencies to use 401k instead of pensions is one of the few really good ideas I'll give conservatives in utah |
| 20:27.39 | unum | that actually makes a lot of sense to me |
| 20:28.07 | unum | but most of their ideas I think would do a lot of harm |
| 20:32.23 | ezakimak | ooh. agenda 21, not good. |
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| 20:39.35 | ezakimak | so glad i've avoided ext4 |
| 20:39.47 | unum | looks like one of those things that doesn't really do anything but conservatives love to freak out about |
| 20:39.51 | unum | like the united order |
| 20:39.58 | unum | ext4 is fine, the new kernel is not |
| 20:41.24 | ezakimak | how is worse-than-eminent-domain not bad? |
| 20:41.50 | ezakimak | eminent domain itself has been abused |
| 20:42.51 | unum | ezakimak: point to an example is the US where agenda 21 has been evoked and someone's property taken |
| 20:43.13 | ezakimak | http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/10/un_agenda_21_coming_to_a_neigh.html |
| 20:43.18 | unum | any ways looks like the ext4 bug is only in kernel in the last week |
| 20:43.20 | ezakimak | that article describes some counties that are already doing it |
| 20:43.30 | unum | ezakimak: but not the US? |
| 20:43.53 | ezakimak | i couldn't tell you, i've just barely begun studying it |
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| 20:45.40 | unum | that's my point, people like that author like to talk about and talk all the thing it *could* mean but in reality nothing has changed in our lives because of it, and nothing is likely to change |
| 20:45.54 | unum | but it sure sounds scary to say the UN can take your house |
| 20:46.30 | ezakimak | yes, and i think it's important to prevent even the possibliity, even if practically they may not invoke it--they should not be granted the right in the first place |
| 20:47.10 | unum | weren't you the on who was arguing that in practice was the only thing that matter earlier today |
| 20:47.18 | unum | now it's what's on paper that matters..... |
| 20:47.20 | unum | I'm so confused |
| 20:47.33 | ezakimak | apples and oranges. |
| 20:48.36 | unum | both look like conservative conspiracy theories to me. So i'd say they're the same think. |
| 20:48.39 | unum | thing. |
| 20:48.55 | ezakimak | really? |
| 20:49.13 | unum | yep |
| 20:49.15 | ezakimak | so you label it as "nut job" as your defense |
| 20:49.27 | unum | pretty much |
| 20:49.35 | ezakimak | wow. there's a strong, well thought out argument. |
| 20:49.46 | unum | now the NSA *IS* reading your email, and listening to your phone calls |
| 20:49.55 | unum | so you can be concerned about that |
| 20:49.58 | ezakimak | label it anything you want, doesn't make the issues go away, or the facts change to your liking. |
| 20:50.18 | unum | the fact is that the un has not seized any property in the US under agenda 21 |
| 20:50.50 | ezakimak | by definition, "conspiracies" happen all around us, all the time. theories try to explain who the conspirators are and what are their agendas. |
| 20:51.18 | unum | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:51.19 | ezakimak | in some cases, it's public knowledge who's involved, not always why |
| 20:51.38 | ezakimak | for example, there was undoubtedly a conspiracy for 911 |
| 20:51.49 | ezakimak | people conspired to do that. |
| 20:51.50 | Gate | Conspiracy theories are arguments from ignorance. Very few have any real evidence or cause. |
| 20:52.19 | ezakimak | bankers conspired to enact the fed. reserve act. it happened. |
| 20:52.27 | unum | not theories |
| 20:52.29 | Gate | Aliens helped Al-Qaeda, we should invade mars. |
| 20:52.39 | unum | but actualy conspiracies that's the difference |
| 20:52.51 | Gate | is quite serious about invading mars, at least then we would have people on mars |
| 20:52.55 | unum | actually I need to look up the definition now |
| 20:53.32 | unum | I don't know the federal reserve was formed in secret |
| 20:53.36 | unum | it was a 100 years ago |
| 20:53.48 | unum | but I don't think it was much of a seceret |
| 20:53.55 | ezakimak | it doesn't have to be in secret, depends on the definition you choose |
| 20:53.58 | unum | federal laws rarely are.... |
| 20:54.36 | unum | I guess #5 on dictionary.com does not imply a secret |
| 20:54.41 | unum | but most people take it that way |
| 20:54.50 | ezakimak | it was passed in secret to many legislators, sort of--they forgot to close the session for the holidays and ran it through w/o a full quorum |
| 20:54.56 | unum | I'd say in the commond mind it implies secret |
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| 20:56.22 | ezakimak | it was drafted in secret |
| 20:56.44 | unum | maybe passed is secret, but most legislators were there |
| 20:56.53 | unum | and previous similiar version had been proposed |
| 20:57.11 | unum | but yes laws are often dafted by a few people before being introduced to committee |
| 20:57.27 | unum | I meant to say maybe drafted in secret |
| 20:57.38 | unum | most legislators were there so it was NOT passed in secret |
| 20:59.06 | unum | http://www.scribd.com/doc/17234309/Congressional-Record-Dec-23-1913 |
| 20:59.21 | ezakimak | i stand corrected |
| 21:00.57 | Migs | holy TL;DR |
| 21:01.26 | ezakimak | i skimmed to the vote |
| 21:01.51 | unum | I think that accounts for all senator at the time |
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| 21:12.47 | ezakimak | and i just upgraded to the effected kernel last night |
| 21:12.52 | ezakimak | *affected |
| 21:19.08 | unum | well then it is a good think you are on ext3 |
| 21:19.21 | unum | we don't do kernel upgrades that quickly |
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| 21:21.30 | ezakimak | i'm on reiserfs 3.6 |
| 21:21.56 | ezakimak | i upgrade my kernel every few months at most, i was on 3.4.9 before |
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| 21:39.45 | unum | we could discuss the affects of the new major caucus on the state democratic party |
| 21:40.20 | unum | or how if Romney wins do you think he'll move the country further to the left like he did MA? |
| 21:40.51 | unum | or will he govern from the center like he has been debating |
| 21:41.11 | unum | or will be the guy that was running for president for the previous 4 years? |
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