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| 14:57.32 | Q_Continuum | Hmmm. Home storage arrays. (Max of) 7x3.5" or 12x2.5" - capacity TBD. |
| 14:58.01 | Q_Continuum | Thinking the 7x3.5" is plenty, even with 2 for parity. |
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| 16:16.21 | Gate | eightyeight: I'm suspicious of walther after I had a p22 that was complete and total crap |
| 16:16.37 | Gate | I hear their high caliber guns are better, though |
| 16:17.47 | Q_Continuum | I need to procure a .22LR pistol, since that dude in Idaho still hasn't released his .22LR conversion for XD's. |
| 16:17.56 | resplin | Howdy emcnabb! |
| 16:19.43 | Jayce^ | most .22 semi pistols are finiky on ammo |
| 16:19.46 | Q_Continuum | Walther G22, Ruger SR-22, SIG .22 conversion ($300 on top of price of a SIG), 1911 conversion... |
| 16:19.51 | Jayce^ | buckmark's are the way to go |
| 16:20.10 | Q_Continuum | Thing is I prefer the more 'modern' styled ones. |
| 16:21.16 | Jayce^ | as long as I pick up good ammo, my wife's p22 is fine |
| 16:21.23 | Jayce^ | but no way it'll work with any bulk ammo |
| 16:21.35 | Jayce^ | that was her first "training" gun |
| 16:23.55 | Gate | Jayce^: yeah, I had to put stingers or whatever and I still had about a %5 failure to cycle, with bulk it was about %50 |
| 16:24.16 | Q_Continuum | Yuck. |
| 16:24.41 | Gate | I considered the gun crap and sold it to some poor sap (read my brother) who for some gawdawful reason wanted a gun that fails to train on malfunction drills |
| 16:24.42 | Q_Continuum | Are there any that aren't stupid-expensive that will take bulk ammo? |
| 16:24.59 | macnewbold | oddly enough, my cheap Hi-point 9mm works fine with bulk ammo.... |
| 16:25.08 | Q_Continuum | wishes Ruger hadn't made their 10/22 pistol so 'spensive and special-purpose |
| 16:25.16 | Q_Continuum | well, ok, in .22LR |
| 16:25.21 | Q_Continuum | I have 3 in 9mm already |
| 16:25.22 | Q_Continuum | lol |
| 16:25.23 | Gate | Ruger's are a fine gun. I don't own one but I shot one for years and never recall a failure |
| 16:25.39 | Gate | I think it was a Mk II |
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| 16:43.47 | Jayce^ | yeah, those are good |
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| 17:29.18 | Migs | http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/fss/b1a44e8f4392cd013b8cecf0aae76a5 |
| 17:33.16 | programmerq | I was looking into getting a first gun. Ruger SR9 looks nice. |
| 17:33.25 | programmerq | though, I may go for a .22 for a first gun. |
| 17:34.08 | Q_Continuum | Ruger 10/22 for fun plinking (rifle) and pick up a pistol of choice. |
| 17:40.31 | Jayce^ | neybar_work loves the sr9 |
| 17:41.21 | emcnabb | resplin, hello! |
| 17:43.49 | Jayce^ | ~lart emcnabb |
| 17:43.49 | ibot | breaks out the Hoover and sucks up emcnabb |
| 17:44.46 | emcnabb | ~whaleslap Jayce^ |
| 17:44.46 | ibot | ACTION beats Jayce^ upside and over the head with a freakishly huge killer whale named Hugh |
| 18:09.16 | Gate | programmerq: I had a friend fall in love with the SR9 compact, He hasn't used it much so far, though |
| 18:09.34 | Gate | (his work shortly thereafter banned guns on the premisis, which is why he wasnted it) |
| 18:10.19 | programmerq | yeah my company has a global blanket "no weapons on premesis" policy |
| 18:10.26 | programmerq | my last job didn't have that |
| 18:10.34 | programmerq | and it was nice knowing there were so many carriers |
| 18:10.50 | programmerq | any problems would have been swiftly dealt with |
| 18:15.58 | Gate | programmerq: my friend came to me saying he was worried about self defense. I started down the normal situational awareness discussion etc. |
| 18:16.09 | Gate | then he mentioned that shots had been fired at his building. |
| 18:16.24 | Gate | I promptly made him go get a CCW permit and a gun. |
| 18:17.03 | Gate | Just in time for his company to completely eliminate his ability to carry |
| 18:17.24 | ezakimak | i'll mos likely get a vacero long colt and a 1911 |
| 18:17.27 | ezakimak | *most |
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| 18:20.11 | Q_CONTINUUM | programmerq: Many large corps have the blanket policy, I have yet to find one that didn't. |
| 18:20.51 | jima | Gate: yes, because rules are perfect for keeping guns out |
| 18:21.33 | ezakimak | well, maybe utah will follow WY and go to constitutional carry. |
| 18:21.55 | jima | Gate: they should have banned guns before that shots-fired incident, then it wouldn't have happened. |
| 18:22.22 | Q_CONTINUUM | EXACTLY! |
| 18:22.24 | Gate | jima: technically they did. But they offered lockers so that people could carry until they got into the building |
| 18:22.29 | Gate | they took those away |
| 18:22.38 | Q_CONTINUUM | Wow. |
| 18:22.48 | ezakimak | i don't see how banning guns keeps criminals from shooting anyways |
| 18:22.52 | Q_CONTINUUM | So they were half-sane |
| 18:22.56 | Gate | ezakimak: Utah cannot rationally ban private property owners from prohibiting guns on their property |
| 18:23.01 | Q_CONTINUUM | then went full retard. |
| 18:23.27 | jima | ezakimak: ... |
| 18:23.40 | Gate | Q_CONTINUUM: exactly, leaving my friend and his co-workers exposed ina neighborhood more dangerous than I thought we had in Utah |
| 18:24.06 | Q_CONTINUUM | Gate: I don't know any employers like that anywhere. *cough* |
| 18:24.15 | Q_CONTINUUM | Might have been one in MN... |
| 18:24.18 | Q_CONTINUUM | who couldn't read the law. |
| 18:24.26 | jima | Q_CONTINUUM: my old work? :-P |
| 18:24.44 | Q_CONTINUUM | jima: Yeah. The second door into the building doesn't count as "outside" |
| 18:24.53 | Q_CONTINUUM | err inner door. |
| 18:25.04 | Q_CONTINUUM | and IIRC they didn't post any of the others either. |
| 18:25.15 | jima | Q_CONTINUUM: i know. and they didn't post at every door. and the building was arguably multi-tenant. |
| 18:25.22 | Q_CONTINUUM | I loved Ikea's half-assed attempt too. |
| 18:25.35 | jima | that doesn't comply with the signage requirements? yes. |
| 18:25.37 | Q_CONTINUUM | Right letters. right size. But white-on-glass...at ankle height...oops. |
| 18:26.00 | ezakimak | what sign? |
| 18:26.15 | Q_CONTINUUM | MN's requirements for posting "no carry here" are specific verbage, minimum text size, specific font, and specific location. |
| 18:26.37 | Q_CONTINUUM | Then the law gives the business weak gums for enforcement. |
| 18:27.21 | jima | Q_CONTINUUM: specific contrast, too |
| 18:27.26 | Q_CONTINUUM | Carry past the sign, get caught, asked to leave, refuse, cops show up, gun not subject to forfeiture/seizure but you can get a $25 petty misdamenor 'tresspassing' charge. |
| 18:27.28 | Q_CONTINUUM | yes |
| 18:27.39 | Q_CONTINUUM | So basically the sign makes the idiots feel better. |
| 18:27.46 | Q_CONTINUUM | Because "WE HAVE A SIGN AGAINST THAT" |
| 18:27.55 | jima | the white-on-glass wouldn't even meet that rule |
| 18:27.59 | Q_CONTINUUM | Nope. |
| 18:28.06 | Q_CONTINUUM | Terribly explicit. |
| 18:28.06 | Gate | Q_CONTINUUM: Utah law (as I understand it) says that they can't ban you from having it in your car in a publically accessible parking lot. |
| 18:28.08 | jima | and the criminals don't care either way |
| 18:28.15 | Q_CONTINUUM | Gate: That's my understanding. |
| 18:28.31 | Gate | But they can ban you at the door. Which means walking from your car to the door your a sitting duck |
| 18:28.33 | jima | wasn't MN the same way? |
| 18:28.35 | Q_CONTINUUM | So what happens if its a parking ramp with gates that (could be) closed but never ever are? |
| 18:28.57 | Gate | dunno |
| 18:29.30 | harleypig | Q_CONTINUUM: The law doesn't care about reality ... only about the narrowly defined possibilities. |
| 18:29.33 | Q_CONTINUUM | jima: MN was weird. You could, but your employment contract could say that they reserve the right to search any vehicles in their lot. |
| 18:29.46 | Q_CONTINUUM | and fire you for it. |
| 18:29.52 | Jayce^ | thankfully utah has a clarification law on that |
| 18:30.00 | Jayce^ | your car, your property, even on their lot |
| 18:30.02 | Q_CONTINUUM | MN law was silent on the issue of parking lots - there was an effort to fix that last I heard. |
| 18:30.09 | Jayce^ | securing in your car is your property |
| 18:30.47 | Gate | Right, a person's car is now considered a legal extension of there home, castle doctrine and all |
| 18:32.19 | ezakimak | Gate, that just utah? |
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| 18:47.04 | Gate | ezakimak: yes |
| 18:47.21 | Gate | ezakimak: I think Nevada has that law as well |
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| 18:55.46 | unum | though someone can boot your car with out trial if you park it on their property :) |
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| 18:58.37 | Gate | Just like a bank can reposess your house. Property rights have their limitations |
| 18:58.53 | Gate | (yes I realize that is a completely different problem) |
| 19:10.08 | unum | at USU there was a group of students who were trying to argue that booting was improper seizure |
| 19:11.19 | unum | but if I tresspass and leave a piece of my property behind, I don't really feel like I'm entitled to get it back on my terms |
| 19:11.49 | Gate | Right, abandonment, etc |
| 19:12.14 | unum | http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-october-8-2012/children-s-television-chop-shop---this-week-with-george-snuffleupagus |
| 19:12.27 | unum | I love the part where Grover talks about Atlas Shrugs |
| 19:12.33 | Q_Continuum | Depends on where the booting takes place. |
| 19:19.58 | unum | Q_Continuum: are you referring to public streets |
| 19:23.43 | Gate | Q_Continuum: about the ignoring of the signs/being asked to leave: theres a police force ready and willing to kill you for that: http://www.wnd.com/2012/06/cops-gun-down-man-for-legally-carrying-firearm/ |
| 19:25.02 | Gate | wow, that link I sent you is super biased |
| 19:25.14 | Gate | But there are real news sources out there for it |
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| 19:35.27 | *** mode/#utah [+o ChanServ] by pratchett.freenode.net |
| 19:38.19 | Q_Continuum | Gate: The link you pasted was from wnd.com - its going to be so filled with bias you hit your weekly limit. |
| 19:38.54 | Gate | I've honestly never heard of them |
| 19:39.16 | Gate | I only read the first paragraph before pasting the link, and only to make sure it was the right stroy |
| 19:39.23 | Gate | I will not make that mistake with them again |
| 19:41.45 | Gate | You know, I read biased news services (or at least their headlines) because I like to see what varios factions think, but dear *God* it wears on one's patience |
| 19:42.56 | Q_Continuum | And faith in humanity. |
| 19:43.31 | Q_Continuum | That is the biggest hit. |
| 19:45.50 | unum | I have friends that read huffpo and I just want to say stop, please stop. Can't you atleast settle for msnbc. |
| 19:46.20 | unum | Of course I watch stewart religiously |
| 19:46.25 | Q_Continuum | knows folks that listen to those two pretty much exclusively |
| 19:46.45 | unum | and just posted a very biased video from him |
| 19:46.47 | Q_Continuum | Honestly I can't stand the crap either side puts out. |
| 19:46.59 | unum | I watch steward and read the trib |
| 19:47.01 | manithree | I read puffho on occasion |
| 19:47.26 | unum | I'll read nytimes or washpo, I've read a lot of good stuff on the alantic |
| 19:47.33 | Q_Continuum | I read slashdot, reddit, and a few other tech news sites. I get world headlines from Google News as a general overview. |
| 19:47.46 | unum | I've read some article on wsj and washingtimes that aren't bad. |
| 19:47.54 | unum | I do check google sometimes |
| 19:47.58 | Q_Continuum | But really, most of it doesn't directly effect me, or have something that I can effect on it. |
| 19:48.06 | unum | ya that's why I get the paper |
| 19:48.09 | unum | so I can get local news |
| 19:48.30 | Q_Continuum | So worrying about what some talking head in NY said, did or who they did and how dirty it was, I don't give any fucks about. |
| 19:49.27 | Q_Continuum | And don't want to hear about it. |
| 19:49.38 | unum | I don care about the audit of UTOPIA and told my state rep what a hypocrit he was being from what I had read |
| 19:49.43 | unum | s/don/do |
| 19:49.56 | Q_Continuum | As the stupidity involved in both sides makes me lose faith in humanity, and start to think everyone is an idiot. |
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| 19:50.09 | unum | I do care about the attempt to ban parents from smoking in their cars with kids |
| 19:50.20 | unum | Q_Continuum: everyone is an idiot, in some way |
| 19:50.25 | unum | we all have our specialities |
| 19:50.42 | Q_Continuum | unum: Yes, but when they have to spew it all in my direction I tend to start to ignore them and kick them out of my life. |
| 19:51.13 | Q_Continuum | Or choose to rant about it regularly at me |
| 19:51.29 | unum | I contitue to press on in my attempt to learn other view points and share my own, hoping it can help provide for a better place |
| 19:52.04 | unum | though as of yet I have not read Atlas Shrugged, so maybe I'm not that open minded :) |
| 19:52.06 | Q_Continuum | We all have things that are near and dear to us. But PLEASE think and give it a modicum of research before spewing some bile that came off the TV or internet at me for an hour. |
| 19:52.12 | unum | of course I did used to be conservative |
| 19:52.38 | Q_Continuum | I'd consider myself in the middle/libertarian depending on the context. |
| 19:52.56 | Q_Continuum | Socially liberal, fiscally conservative, but in general leave people to their own devices. |
| 19:56.34 | unum | education? |
| 19:56.57 | unum | as in do you support more less funding for it |
| 19:57.31 | unum | and on which levels do you support the funding be increased/decreased |
| 19:59.32 | Q_Continuum | do it at the state level |
| 20:00.03 | Q_Continuum | Mandates from the Fed level (completely removed from reality, and a decade or more behind in tech) don't work so well. |
| 20:00.28 | unum | foreign aide? |
| 20:00.30 | Q_Continuum | says this as a test-subject of NCLB in its early years when implementation wavered |
| 20:00.52 | jima | Q_Continuum: you don't like unfunded federal mandates? |
| 20:00.59 | Q_Continuum | jima: Among other things yes. |
| 20:01.04 | unum | I was well out of school by that time, I have extremely mixed feelings about federal involvement in education |
| 20:01.08 | jima | COMMUNIST |
| 20:02.10 | Q_Continuum | Foreign Aid: stop giving countries supplies/money all the time, help them become more self-sufficient. (Africa is a big example: NGOs exist that are more interested in sending them building-blocks to self-sustainability, like a kid-powered well) |
| 20:02.33 | Q_Continuum | We DESTROYED an entire industry in Haiti after their earthquakes. |
| 20:02.45 | Q_Continuum | THey didn't have a city-water-infrastructure, so you'd pay various companies to deliver it. |
| 20:02.52 | Q_Continuum | We sent a bajillion cases of bottled water. |
| 20:02.56 | Q_Continuum | All those companies closed down. |
| 20:03.11 | Q_Continuum | Now all those people need handouts too. |
| 20:04.06 | Q_Continuum | Should've leveraged the local resources: "What can we do to keep that going/get it going again? Send equipment to repair/set up new stuff, and pay them for it for a bit." |
| 20:04.23 | Q_Continuum | Stop giving everyone fish every day for a year. |
| 20:04.38 | Q_Continuum | Give them a month or three's worth (or whatever to get through the rough patch) while you train them to fish. |
| 20:04.47 | Q_Continuum | and bring in a few poles, and teach others to make them. |
| 20:04.58 | unum | we've destroyed the agriculture industry in a lot of countries |
| 20:05.14 | Q_Continuum | "Here's enough supplies to get going, here's the way to do it yourself, and here's how to build the infrastructure behind it." |
| 20:05.16 | unum | made them completely dependent on us, gives us great leverage when negotiating for their natural resources |
| 20:05.31 | Q_Continuum | And costs us billions if not trillions every year. |
| 20:05.34 | Q_Continuum | in foreign aid. |
| 20:05.44 | unum | if we allowed them to rebuild their agriculture program we would lose our leverage |
| 20:05.46 | Q_Continuum | and keeps them down, as they can't get past the mining of minerals. |
| 20:05.51 | Q_Continuum | So what? |
| 20:05.57 | Q_Continuum | Then they do something great. |
| 20:05.58 | unum | I support that |
| 20:06.07 | unum | even though I didn't word it that way :) |
| 20:06.38 | unum | the realization of what we were doing to these countries is what started my move away from conservatism |
| 20:07.09 | unum | I realized certain things had been kept from me my whole life. All my news was coming from a FOX News type filter that prevented me from seeing the whole picture |
| 20:07.54 | Q_Continuum | Well, RINO or actual conservative? |
| 20:07.59 | Q_Continuum | RINO/NEOCON |
| 20:08.01 | Q_Continuum | Heh. |
| 20:08.03 | Q_Continuum | Big diff. |
| 20:08.49 | unum | definitions of those words all depend on who you ask |
| 20:09.00 | unum | your definintion is no more valid than mine |
| 20:09.16 | unum | though if you have a PHD in polisci I might give you more credence ;) |
| 20:10.30 | Q_Continuum | I do not. |
| 20:11.55 | unum | I really hate how republicans keep trying to claim democracy=direct democracy. There's an entire field dedicated to studying government, and most of them agree that that's not true. |
| 20:12.04 | unum | that's why they have both terms |
| 20:12.27 | unum | now can we quit argueing about silly definitions and talk about policy |
| 20:18.20 | Q_Continuum | Heh. |
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| 20:29.23 | eightyeight | and then you both stop talking? |
| 20:29.27 | eightyeight | pfft |
| 20:30.38 | Q_Continuum | Well what categories shall we discuss? |
| 20:30.42 | Q_Continuum | I didn't see you keeping it going :-P |
| 20:32.07 | eightyeight | i wasn't part of the discussion. :) |
| 20:32.08 | unum | I meant my last little rant there more in general |
| 20:32.23 | unum | in context for foreign aide there is always israel |
| 20:32.59 | eightyeight | Q_Continuum: if you want something to talk about, greek austerity or the spain bailout |
| 20:33.02 | eightyeight | :) |
| 20:33.05 | unum | federal vs state funding for education has a lot of fun arguments, but I don't have completely firm opinions on them |
| 20:33.25 | unum | I don't really care where the funding comes from, I do have more concerns about the content and methods |
| 20:33.54 | unum | I think the Utah law requiring 401k instead of pensions was a good idea |
| 20:34.00 | eightyeight | why is everyone so concerned about america? there are other countries in the world. |
| 20:34.01 | Q_Continuum | I prefer the idea of letting states try different things. What works for Wyoming may not work for California. |
| 20:34.02 | unum | I'll give that one to the fiscal conservatives |
| 20:34.03 | eightyeight | ducks |
| 20:34.16 | Q_Continuum | eightyeight: Because its the one we live in and can impact the most? |
| 20:34.20 | unum | eightyeight: I don't vote there |
| 20:34.29 | Q_Continuum | eightyeight: Why don't you fix the issue of child labor in India? |
| 20:34.42 | unum | we could do something about that here |
| 20:34.47 | eightyeight | woah. i didn't say anything about 'fixing' stuff. only 'discussing' stuff. |
| 20:35.17 | unum | I would support a law a requiring certain standard of living requirements for anything sold in the US |
| 20:35.26 | eightyeight | if we fix anything in america, it should be patent law |
| 20:35.39 | eightyeight | https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/08/technology/patent-wars-among-tech-giants-can-stifle-competition.html?pagewanted=all |
| 20:35.47 | unum | that would be helpful for me :) |
| 20:36.29 | unum | though at one pointed I proffitted off of the patent law suits |
| 20:36.33 | unum | but that is no longer the case |
| 20:36.34 | Q_Continuum | Patent law, gov't subsidies of things supporting legacy industries, among others. |
| 20:36.56 | unum | legacy industries like oil? ;) |
| 20:37.04 | unum | waaaay to many winkys from me today. |
| 20:37.34 | eightyeight | unum: we all know you're sexy |
| 20:37.49 | eightyeight | you don't have to wink at us. :) |
| 20:38.17 | Q_Continuum | Oil would be one, yes. |
| 20:38.30 | Q_Continuum | We ended the subsidies on ethanol |
| 20:38.37 | Q_Continuum | time to remove them from the competition. |
| 20:39.05 | Q_Continuum | Let us directly see the cost of it, instead of subsidizing it and adding to the debt our great-great-great grandchildren will pay off. |
| 20:39.16 | Q_Continuum | maybe, if they live on potatoes and cabbage. |
| 20:39.54 | ezakimak | if we fix anything, it should be the monetary system. get rid of the "fed" reserve, disallow profit from interest. |
| 20:40.55 | unum | so far we've avoid paying off the debt our great-great-great parents left us :) |
| 20:41.14 | *** join/#utah kendsnyder (~kendsnyde@75-162-201-167.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 20:41.18 | unum | eliminating the fed is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard of |
| 20:41.23 | unum | I don't understand the arguments |
| 20:41.30 | unum | I don't under the expected results |
| 20:41.35 | unum | it's just mind boggling |
| 20:41.44 | unum | why anyone would want to do that |
| 20:42.37 | Q_Continuum | getting rid of the fed is a big task. Let's focus on smaller things first, get people used to Big Changes :-D |
| 20:42.47 | Q_Continuum | and say, make the fed more transparent in its activities first. |
| 20:43.03 | Q_Continuum | Then when people see the sausage being made, they'll understand the disaster. |
| 20:44.03 | eightyeight | i'm not sure i understand "profit from interest", actually |
| 20:44.20 | eightyeight | does this mean you're not allowed to charge interest on loans? |
| 20:44.32 | eightyeight | it's already a federal offense to charge interest on interest |
| 20:44.49 | eightyeight | so, maybe i'm missing something |
| 20:44.52 | unum | I think Eccles knew exactly what he was doing and set up an effective system |
| 20:45.00 | unum | nothing's perfect, but it's been effective |
| 20:46.33 | Q_Continuum | The fact our economy as a country and world is built on unending growth is going to fail. |
| 20:46.37 | ezakimak | unum, the fed is a private bank. it's the 3rd central bank the us has had. the 2nd was dismantled by Jackson. |
| 20:46.55 | ezakimak | mathematically, our monetary system can only fail. |
| 20:47.33 | Q_Continuum | Its just a matter of time. |
| 20:47.36 | ezakimak | every "fed reserve note" in circulation is borrowed from the fed--that is the debt we owe, and all of our income taxes doesn't even cover the *interest* we owe for it |
| 20:48.09 | ezakimak | what we shoud do, is repeal the fed reserve act and let the people (congress) take back the power to coin our own money |
| 20:48.21 | ezakimak | which is what Jackson did |
| 20:48.31 | Q_Continuum | If the rest of the world decided tomorrow that we weren't going to pay them back, they would all switch to another currency and demand to be cashed out, and we would sink, immediately. |
| 20:48.33 | unum | ezakimak: there are 13 federal reserve banks 12 of which are private |
| 20:48.42 | ezakimak | but, also, so long as any entity is allowed to profit from interest, mathematically, eventually those entities will have all of the currency |
| 20:48.44 | unum | the first bank was killed by congress |
| 20:48.49 | ezakimak | they are *all* private |
| 20:49.00 | unum | the fed reserve has been around for a 100 years though only about 80 in it's current form |
| 20:49.28 | ezakimak | "federal" is purposefully misleading |
| 20:49.34 | unum | there has been no depression in the united states since eccles revamped the reserve, only recessions, and most of those were intentional |
| 20:49.45 | ezakimak | yes, they were all intentional |
| 20:50.04 | ezakimak | they were all perpetrated by the bankers to squeeze, and transfer the wealth to the bankers |
| 20:50.19 | unum | no, they were enacted to prevent bubbles |
| 20:50.31 | unum | though specific bubbles in certain industries still happen |
| 20:50.55 | ezakimak | they were *caused* by the bankers in collusion. they have openly admitted to it. |
| 20:51.15 | unum | yes, most recession in the last 80 years were cause by the reserve on purpose |
| 20:51.22 | unum | I'm not arguing with you |
| 20:51.31 | unum | I'm agreeing with you |
| 20:51.46 | unum | anyways the regional banks are private, but the top level one is not |
| 20:51.51 | unum | and they borrow from it |
| 20:51.59 | ezakimak | the top level one *is* private |
| 20:52.17 | unum | who owns it? |
| 20:52.26 | unum | or is it publicly traded? |
| 20:52.30 | unum | what's stock ticker? |
| 20:52.38 | ezakimak | it's *private* |
| 20:52.57 | ezakimak | it is a private bank. not publicly traded |
| 20:53.57 | ezakimak | it is privately controlled |
| 20:54.19 | unum | who owns it? |
| 20:54.25 | unum | banks have to have charters |
| 20:55.22 | unum | http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/23/business/economy/23fed.html?_r=2&ref=business& |
| 20:55.35 | unum | you probably won't believe an article in the new york times |
| 20:55.48 | ezakimak | http://dmc.members.sonic.net/sentinel/naij2.html |
| 20:55.55 | unum | would you believe anything with a .gov address? |
| 20:55.56 | ezakimak | http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/wildbankers.php |
| 20:56.12 | ezakimak | that latter link has some very enlightening videos |
| 20:57.01 | unum | you have something with less typo's |
| 20:57.05 | unum | I've seen the video |
| 20:57.22 | unum | but I tend to trust the new york times more than random videos |
| 20:57.30 | unum | call me a liberal |
| 20:57.48 | ezakimak | i don't understand your point w/that article |
| 20:58.59 | ezakimak | http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-02-09/wall_street/31040431_1_interest-rates-big-banks-member |
| 21:00.25 | unum | my point is that the federal government made money off the system |
| 21:00.34 | unum | because they are at the top of the system |
| 21:00.38 | unum | yes the banks are private |
| 21:00.51 | ezakimak | the fed government is not at the top of the system |
| 21:00.52 | unum | road construction companies are private |
| 21:01.02 | ezakimak | the fed govt *borrows* from the "fed" reserve bank. |
| 21:01.05 | unum | they make money off the government |
| 21:02.00 | unum | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:02.10 | Q_Continuum | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Bank#Finances - first two sentences. |
| 21:02.10 | unum | that's from the article I sent you |
| 21:02.32 | unum | thank you Q_Continuum |
| 21:03.08 | Q_Continuum | The problem is the nebulous 'closed' nature of everything along the way. |
| 21:03.16 | ezakimak | and the us gov *owes* interest for those notes to the central "fed" reserve bank. |
| 21:03.21 | Q_Continuum | The fact that their inner workings are known to only a few. |
| 21:03.40 | Q_Continuum | and we're just supposed to "trust" they they have our best interests at heart. |
| 21:03.57 | Jayce^ | don't worry, there is a public audit... oh.. wait.. :) |
| 21:04.00 | ezakimak | regardless of the "fed" reserve<-> us govt structure, mathematically, allowing an entity to profit from interest means eventually that entity will have all the currency |
| 21:04.08 | unum | Q_Continuum: you think all board of governor meetings should be open to public, or that the private banks should be forced to meet in public |
| 21:04.33 | unum | ezakimak: that entity pays most of it's revenue back to the treasury |
| 21:04.51 | unum | so you are claiming the treasury will eventually have all the currency |
| 21:05.07 | unum | somehow over 100 years that has failed to happen |
| 21:05.17 | ezakimak | http://www.apfn.org/apfn/fed_reserve.htm |
| 21:05.25 | unum | I guess that's because they keep sending it back out |
| 21:05.41 | ezakimak | you obviously have not watched the video on that page. (there's at least 3) |
| 21:05.48 | Q_Continuum | unum: We need more insight in how they work, they make private loans to non-US entities that we're on the hook for, and devalue our own currency to do. |
| 21:05.53 | unum | ezakimak: address the issue that they are required to pay back the money to the treasury |
| 21:06.03 | ezakimak | it explains the math at hand |
| 21:06.04 | unum | you seem to be ignoring that statement |
| 21:06.08 | unum | no it's not |
| 21:06.28 | unum | they collect money on the interest of lending out the money the treasury printed |
| 21:06.29 | ezakimak | http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2550156453790090544 |
| 21:06.35 | unum | they then give the money back to the treasurey |
| 21:06.45 | unum | most of the interest that they collect I mean |
| 21:06.49 | unum | it's not hard to explain at all |
| 21:06.53 | unum | REALY easy |
| 21:06.54 | ezakimak | *most*.... |
| 21:06.58 | ezakimak | not *all* |
| 21:07.12 | fugue88 | unum: ezakimak does not seem to be ignoring your statement, you seem to be mischaracterizing the facts: paying "most of the interest back" is a very different proposition than paying all of it back. |
| 21:07.18 | unum | Q_Continuum: the banks or the board of governors |
| 21:07.21 | ezakimak | so if a poker table of chips spins, and every time around the banker takes one off the table.... eventually the table will be *empty* |
| 21:08.11 | unum | but if the banker takes 10 and keeps one and gives the other 9 back to the person who put them on the table |
| 21:08.18 | unum | and then that person puts ten on the table |
| 21:08.20 | ezakimak | it's a negative sum game |
| 21:08.24 | Q_Continuum | unum: the system as a whole. |
| 21:08.27 | unum | it doesn't seem like the bankers has them all |
| 21:08.38 | unum | Q_Continuum: that's very vague |
| 21:08.39 | ezakimak | and where does that person get 10? he borrows it from the banker, owing interest |
| 21:08.51 | unum | ezakimak: no he makes them |
| 21:08.54 | unum | that what he does |
| 21:09.04 | unum | well he makes the one |
| 21:09.06 | ezakimak | no he does not. he's not allowed to, only the banker is currently allowed to make chips |
| 21:09.10 | unum | the banker gave him the other 9 |
| 21:09.21 | unum | ezakimak: nope, only the US treasury can make money |
| 21:09.29 | Q_Continuum | unum: I don't pretend to understand the whole system, but any system where a handful of people can fuck over 300 million and no one has any say in it is a pretty poor way to manage something so critical to a 'Free Country' |
| 21:09.35 | unum | in fact the us treasury makes most of the money in the world |
| 21:09.36 | ezakimak | not anymore. they've given that to the fed reserve bank |
| 21:09.48 | ezakimak | that is the root of the problem |
| 21:10.09 | ezakimak | congress (illegally) gave the fed reserve the power to make our money, and the us treasury *borrows* it from them to circulate |
| 21:10.22 | unum | Q_Continuum: I don't think it was the reserve system that screwed us, it was the mortagage system, reserve system can't regulate individual markets as far as I know |
| 21:10.23 | ezakimak | "federal reserve notes" are *private* bank notes, not us govt currency. |
| 21:10.40 | Jayce^ | no longer treasury notes, nor redeemable |
| 21:10.45 | unum | ezakimak: you are wrong, is there any site I can link to that would covince you other wise |
| 21:10.53 | unum | money is printed by the treasury |
| 21:10.54 | fugue88 | Treasury prints it and hands it to the Fed to circulate by issuing debt. |
| 21:11.23 | unum | thank you fugue88 |
| 21:11.30 | fugue88 | Ironic. |
| 21:11.46 | fugue88 | *Who* prints it is insignificant. |
| 21:11.56 | fugue88 | Who disburses, and how, is. |
| 21:12.00 | Jayce^ | correct |
| 21:12.30 | Jayce^ | the physical printer is at a treasury building, yes, but the command, and backing is reserve |
| 21:12.49 | ezakimak | pull one out your pocket and read it. "federal reserve note" *not* "us treasury note" |
| 21:12.50 | Jayce^ | and then the whole fun of the current monetization policies of said debt... |
| 21:13.00 | unum | ezakimak: ok, still printed by the treasury |
| 21:13.17 | Jayce^ | ezakimak: hey, I still have and old 1930's bill just so I can show the treasury differences |
| 21:16.48 | Jayce^ | Federal Reserve Notes are authorized by Section 411 of Title 12 of the United States Code and are issued to the Federal Reserve Banks at the discretion of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System.[2] The notes are then put into circulation by the Federal Reserve Banks,[3] at which point they become liabilities of the Federal Reserve Banks[4] and obligations of the United States. |
| 21:16.54 | ezakimak | unum, it's purposefully a confusing circus to hide who really controls it, but it's been publically admitted by many different people |
| 21:17.24 | ezakimak | "obligations of the United States". iow, we *owe* this fed reserve bank |
| 21:17.40 | ezakimak | including presidents and bankers in the system alike |
| 21:17.42 | Jayce^ | US Notes (old real money) were replaced by FRN.. US Notes were printed by the Treasury dept |
| 21:18.04 | ezakimak | and he who owns the debt is the slave master, the debtor the slave |
| 21:19.28 | unum | that's not so different from how it was under the gold standard |
| 21:19.41 | unum | the US owed who ever owned the note |
| 21:20.00 | Jayce^ | actually it's quite different.. you could always cash out, which forces a limit on printing (fiat) |
| 21:20.03 | unum | paper money has always been outstanding debt |
| 21:20.04 | ezakimak | the "gold standard" (no such thing really) was a different problem, also cleverly masterminded by the bankers to control the currency |
| 21:20.07 | Jayce^ | any commodity backing |
| 21:20.11 | unum | Jayce^: that's true |
| 21:20.54 | Jayce^ | even when fed was instituted, it had that limitation |
| 21:20.57 | ezakimak | debt back currency is better than any limited-commodity-backed currency, however, it's *crucial* that the currency be controlled by the people, and not a private, central entity |
| 21:20.57 | unum | I'm not really sure how you think this should work. the reserve banks should all be ran by federal employees |
| 21:21.20 | unum | is that the only difference you want? |
| 21:21.22 | Jayce^ | then 33, bretton woods, and then nixon kept removing those limits |
| 21:21.31 | unum | all 12 of them or just the central bank |
| 21:21.51 | Jayce^ | and now we've even gotten rid of the limit of actual backing (well technically it exists, but we now back with the debt of it's own issuance... ) |
| 21:22.18 | ezakimak | if the us treasury issued it's own currency, and recalled all the FDNs, thus no longer in debt to the fed reserve bank, we would be in a much better position |
| 21:22.49 | ezakimak | add to that the removal of profit from interest, and we'd be set forever |
| 21:23.06 | ezakimak | allow flat fees or interest to be charged for loans, but any interest would go to the govt for public works as a tax--never to a private entity as profit |
| 21:23.42 | ezakimak | allow open, transparent oversight on the money supply, adjusting for inflation, and it would work |
| 21:24.06 | Jayce^ | get rid of non-backed currency and inflation magically isn't so much of an issue :) |
| 21:24.33 | ezakimak | any backed-currency is a problem |
| 21:24.34 | Jayce^ | inflation is the greatest punishment of middle and lower classes |
| 21:24.46 | ezakimak | because you can hoard the backing-commodity |
| 21:25.02 | ezakimak | inflation is a mathematical occurence of a privately-controlled money supply |
| 21:25.16 | Jayce^ | and having a government that think at least 2.5% is a necessary think shows what government really thinks of the poor |
| 21:25.22 | Jayce^ | (and actuality is higher than that) |
| 21:26.02 | ezakimak | fractional reserve lending makes it so the banks control the money supply |
| 21:26.38 | ezakimak | unum, I encourage you to watch that vid sometime. it was eye opening the first time i saw it |
| 21:26.56 | unum | ezakimak: I can't find anything that shows the treasury pays interest to the reserve |
| 21:27.02 | *** join/#utah RyanE (Piadas@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 21:27.08 | unum | the reserve collects interest from other banks |
| 21:27.18 | fugue88 | Deninger's ideas about this are pretty good, I think. He calls his program "1 dollar of capital". Also, the guy behind constitution.org thinks that brining the Jews old debt-forgiveness every 7 years (or 49 or 50, I forget), would be helthy too. |
| 21:27.22 | fugue88 | I agree with both of them. |
| 21:27.32 | unum | to fund it's operations, and to pay interest back to the treasury |
| 21:27.50 | unum | so it's actually the reserve paying interest to the treasury on everything I see, including the nytimes article I sent you |
| 21:27.58 | Jayce^ | fugue88: funny spelling errors :) (Brining a Jew ?? ) |
| 21:27.59 | unum | and wiki link that was shared by someone else |
| 21:28.05 | ezakimak | unum, the "debt ceiling" is the outstanding debt the us gov owes the fed reserve bank. |
| 21:28.14 | fugue88 | Jayce^: Uh, oops. :) |
| 21:28.22 | unum | ezakimak: not even close |
| 21:28.37 | unum | wow, that's so far off I don't even know what to say |
| 21:28.45 | fugue88 | Except to ridicule... |
| 21:28.58 | Q_Continuum | debt ceiling is the max debt we can have. The problem is, the folks that run up the debt can just vote the ceiling higher. |
| 21:28.58 | unum | ok that may be true |
| 21:29.04 | Jayce^ | unum: it's hard to trust NYT on economics, remember one of the main people defining that section is Krauthammer... a man who believes that the govt should print it's way out of any need |
| 21:29.07 | ezakimak | and who does the us gov owe that debt to?? |
| 21:29.13 | Q_Continuum | Its like being able to increase your credit limit at the CC company anytime you want, when you've maxed it out. |
| 21:29.37 | unum | ezakimak: who ever buys treasury bond, or has money in their wallet, and old people |
| 21:29.39 | ezakimak | if the us gov issued it's own currency, it would not owe anyone |
| 21:29.41 | unum | don't forget the old people |
| 21:29.43 | unum | that's most of it |
| 21:29.58 | unum | ezakimak: yes it would. it would still owe on bonds, and SSI |
| 21:30.09 | unum | most of the debt is projected SSI/medicare payments |
| 21:30.12 | Jayce^ | ezakimak: it can still owe (bond/etc) but that's separate from the currency itsel |
| 21:30.14 | Jayce^ | f |
| 21:30.21 | unum | well that was true, the balance may have tipped since I last looked |
| 21:30.28 | fugue88 | http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?singlepost=2996132 |
| 21:30.38 | fugue88 | ^ "one dollar of capital" |
| 21:31.04 | fugue88 | Allows for a fiat currency, but puts limits on bubbles. |
| 21:31.22 | Jayce^ | unum: the current largest owner of US debt is the federal reserve... |
| 21:31.32 | Jayce^ | and increasing |
| 21:31.41 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@69.169.182.226.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net) |
| 21:32.50 | fugue88 | http://constitutionalism.blogspot.com/2012/09/debt-is-bet.html |
| 21:32.58 | fugue88 | ^ Jon Roland (constitution.org) |
| 21:33.09 | *** join/#utah macnewbold (~macnewbol@c-67-172-228-255.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:34.13 | ezakimak | fugue88, wow, that would be quite radical |
| 21:34.27 | fugue88 | Yes, I agree. |
| 21:34.39 | fugue88 | I think it would work, though. |
| 21:34.44 | fugue88 | But it would never get passed. |
| 21:35.09 | ezakimak | i dunno, seems like quite the crap shoot--if you couldn't pay off a large investment in time you lose all your effort |
| 21:36.29 | fugue88 | I'm not sure you understand. |
| 21:36.34 | unum | so if we paid off that debt would we have to go to a barter system? |
| 21:36.51 | fugue88 | If everyone knows that in, for example, 2050 all debts would be forgiven, |
| 21:36.52 | ezakimak | unum, to what do you refer? |
| 21:37.02 | fugue88 | lenders would account for that in their loans. |
| 21:37.23 | fugue88 | Loans closer to the deadline might carry a higher interest rate, or have shorter terms to fall within the legal payback window. |
| 21:37.51 | manithree | http://www.baenebooks.com/10.1125/Baen/067157809X/067157809X.htm?blurb |
| 21:37.52 | ezakimak | i don't see how that helps, really |
| 21:37.52 | fugue88 | That would prevent credit from sloshing around and building in asset markets, preventing prices from going so high in the first place. |
| 21:38.29 | fugue88 | As loans become more widely available, and at longer terms, the assets purchased by those loans will go up in price. |
| 21:38.33 | fugue88 | That's macro econ. |
| 21:38.52 | fugue88 | Houses are expensive because of the mortgage industry. |
| 21:39.03 | fugue88 | Education is expensive because student loans allow it to be. |
| 21:39.08 | fugue88 | etc. |
| 21:40.31 | ezakimak | if we just disallowed profit from interest, disallow fractional-reserve lending, and take back the money supply (treasury notes, not private notes), i think that would fix nearly everything |
| 21:40.53 | ezakimak | would be much simpler system too |
| 21:41.07 | fugue88 | I don't understand "disallow profit from interest." |
| 21:41.14 | Jayce^ | heck, I think a bank should be allowed to fractional-reserve if they want, but they have to also be allowed to fail, and represent themselves as running in that manner :) |
| 21:41.22 | fugue88 | "one dollar of capital" removes fractional banking, btw. |
| 21:41.35 | ezakimak | fractional-reserve lending means, mathematically, that banks control the money supply |
| 21:41.59 | fugue88 | To an extent. |
| 21:42.05 | ezakimak | no, quite literally. |
| 21:42.25 | fugue88 | If a bank can only draw on its current deposits for lending, it's limited in how much it can affect the money supply. |
| 21:42.53 | fugue88 | But banks participate in the Reserve system, with "drawing" rights, which allows them to lend more than their own deposits. |
| 21:43.10 | unum | sorry I have a couple of outlook users left and one of them was having problems |
| 21:43.10 | fugue88 | So, cutting out the Fed would limit banks' affect on the money supply, relative to the current situation. |
| 21:43.21 | fugue88 | unum: I'm sorry that you have outlook users. |
| 21:43.33 | ezakimak | hehe |
| 21:44.19 | Gate | wow, I actually work for a few hours and look at the conversation y'all have |
| 21:44.19 | unum | what I meant to say was the "federal reserve debt" just means outstanding currency that the government has promised to "pay" back, so we can't really pay that part of the "debt" back unless we intend to eliminate the current system |
| 21:44.23 | fugue88 | A bank's only way to affect money supply beyond the size of its deposits (without the Fed) would be to issue its own currency (or "certificates" or similar). |
| 21:44.35 | fugue88 | Which I assume you'd want to disallow, ezakimak. |
| 21:44.41 | ezakimak | yes |
| 21:44.47 | Gate | I say allow it |
| 21:44.54 | ezakimak | no, because then they have control |
| 21:45.10 | Gate | Just don't make their currency federally backed |
| 21:45.16 | fugue88 | Control isn't yes/no, it's in degrees. |
| 21:45.31 | Jayce^ | if it's their own risk, why not.. |
| 21:45.49 | fugue88 | Businesses would be free to not accept payment in currency of Bank SloppyAccountants. |
| 21:45.54 | ezakimak | not having a national currency is problematic |
| 21:45.54 | fugue88 | I assume. |
| 21:46.10 | ezakimak | it impedes trade |
| 21:46.25 | Jayce^ | ezakimak: allowing a bank or whomever to issue there own does not remove a central standard.. |
| 21:46.39 | unum | the board of governor regulates these banks and tells them how much they can land and at what rate |
| 21:46.43 | ezakimak | no, and in fact there are small pockets of that happening right now |
| 21:46.51 | unum | so the "private banks" don't really have that much control |
| 21:47.06 | unum | checks are bank issued currency |
| 21:47.12 | ezakimak | no they are not |
| 21:47.18 | ezakimak | checks are contracts of payment |
| 21:47.25 | fugue88 | And *that* is currency. |
| 21:47.45 | fugue88 | But checks are theoretically backed 1:1 for the account-holder's money. |
| 21:47.45 | ezakimak | true, you could, in theory, just write a check, and pass it around forever |
| 21:48.02 | ezakimak | but they are not bank issued |
| 21:48.09 | Jayce^ | currency was originally just that, but against a specific account, vs the bank in general |
| 21:48.12 | ezakimak | they are issued by the individual that wrote it |
| 21:48.20 | fugue88 | It's a joint issue. |
| 21:48.28 | Jayce^ | ezakimak: you ever endorsed a check to another person? |
| 21:48.29 | fugue88 | You're trusting the bank and the account holder. |
| 21:48.35 | ezakimak | yes, i have |
| 21:48.46 | Jayce^ | same thing |
| 21:48.47 | ezakimak | i'm saying that they are not bank issued is all |
| 21:49.02 | ezakimak | you can write a check on the side of a cow if you wanted to |
| 21:49.05 | ezakimak | (it's been done) |
| 21:49.06 | Jayce^ | but they are, hence the aba/routing information on each |
| 21:49.21 | ezakimak | the bank doesn't put that here, you did, when you ordered your checks to be printed |
| 21:49.28 | ezakimak | and the bank doesn't fill in the amount |
| 21:49.31 | ezakimak | and the bank doesn't sign it |
| 21:49.39 | ezakimak | it's a contract *you* write |
| 21:49.42 | fugue88 | But the bank is a party to fulfilling it. |
| 21:49.48 | ezakimak | a cashier's check, that's a different story |
| 21:49.51 | Jayce^ | but they do provide storage and processing for a fulfillment price |
| 21:49.54 | unum | the bank can choose not to let you write a check |
| 21:50.08 | ezakimak | the bank can refuse to fulfill it, if you account has NSF |
| 21:50.10 | unum | you can't write a check unless you have a bank that is willing to back it |
| 21:50.17 | ezakimak | untrue |
| 21:50.19 | unum | other wise it's just a presonall iou |
| 21:50.26 | fugue88 | A bank could also choose to never honor any checks against any of its account holders. Then, such a bank would not be a co-issuer of such checks. |
| 21:50.29 | unum | but anyways that's exactly what currency is |
| 21:50.31 | unum | an iou |
| 21:50.55 | unum | ok you can write a check, but it's not valid |
| 21:51.08 | Jayce^ | except now it's an iou for an iou to the first iou... |
| 21:51.36 | ezakimak | checks are not guaranteed, unless they're a cashier's check (and even those are not always good) |
| 21:51.53 | Jayce^ | our currency isn't either |
| 21:51.57 | fugue88 | heheh |
| 21:51.59 | ezakimak | it comes back to the theory of money--what is currency... |
| 21:52.08 | fugue88 | money != currency |
| 21:52.13 | ezakimak | it's whatever people agree to exchange for goods or services |
| 21:52.46 | ezakimak | it's all backed by something, whether tangible or ethereal principle (faith) |
| 21:54.57 | unum | I think I did know that most of the debt was cash, but I forgot, I tend to dismiss that as not really being debt |
| 21:55.15 | unum | now I really don't care about the US debt |
| 21:55.43 | ezakimak | why not? |
| 21:56.09 | ezakimak | if the us monetary system collapses, the whole world may be in for some hurt |
| 21:59.00 | unum | why would it collapse? |
| 21:59.38 | unum | actually I'm a little confused about something |
| 22:00.15 | unum | so if the national debt includes all outstanding cash, and the countries GPD is larger than the amount of cash we have(it used to be) |
| 22:00.18 | unum | how do we buy stuff |
| 22:00.29 | unum | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:00.39 | unum | it ciruclates through out the year |
| 22:01.06 | ezakimak | yes |
| 22:01.15 | unum | ezakimak: don't go back to the treasury paying interest to the reserve unless you can prove to me that they actually do |
| 22:01.23 | unum | because everything I've seen says it goes the other way |
| 22:02.18 | unum | so we do owe almost 4 trillion in bonds. that is quite a bit. |
| 22:02.51 | unum | but other 4 trillion isn't something we could pay off if we had anything to pay it off with |
| 22:04.13 | ezakimak | ok. so the us govt prints a bond note. they sell it on the public market. Joe Blow buys it, with what? a Fed Reserve Note, *borrowed*, originally, from the fed. reserve bank. |
| 22:04.24 | unum | ok |
| 22:04.28 | unum | I'm following you |
| 22:05.07 | unum | the great thing about this is they are currently borrowing from the federal reserve at a higher rate than they are getting paid back from the treasurey bond |
| 22:05.13 | unum | I finally understand that now |
| 22:05.19 | ezakimak | and the us govt pays salaries and for goods and services using these fed reserve bank notes |
| 22:05.24 | unum | ok |
| 22:06.10 | ezakimak | if instead, they just paid for goods and services and salaries with notes created by the treasure itself, and accepted these notes as payment for taxes, there would be no interest owed any central bank at all |
| 22:06.47 | unum | the treasury does create the notes |
| 22:06.51 | ezakimak | the treasury could produce more notes as necessary to make sure there's sufficient for the economy to run smoothly |
| 22:06.53 | unum | we keep going back to that |
| 22:07.01 | unum | the treasury creates the notes |
| 22:07.07 | ezakimak | no, they may physically print them, that is different. |
| 22:07.08 | unum | and then lends them to the federal reserve |
| 22:07.26 | fugue88 | Actually, it doesn't lend lend FRNs to the Reserve. |
| 22:07.32 | ezakimak | they are printing a private banks notes for them. *after* getting permission from that bank |
| 22:07.44 | fugue88 | Reserve buys paper, with printing on it, from Treasury, for a printing fee. |
| 22:07.58 | fugue88 | That paper is Federal Reserve Notes. |
| 22:08.49 | ezakimak | unum, FRNs are not backed by the full faith and credit of the US, like a treasury note is. that is the huge difference. |
| 22:09.00 | ezakimak | FRN is a debt note, owed to the Fed Reserve bank. |
| 22:09.17 | unum | http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/12/411 |
| 22:09.50 | unum | Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System is the key there |
| 22:10.17 | ezakimak | yes, a private body. |
| 22:10.39 | unum | nope |
| 22:10.42 | unum | they are not |
| 22:10.58 | unum | board of governors is appointed by the president and conmfirmed by congress |
| 22:11.07 | unum | and they are frequently called before congress |
| 22:11.38 | ezakimak | http://www.apfn.org/apfn/fed_reserve.htm |
| 22:11.48 | ezakimak | see specifically what Rep. McFadden had to say |
| 22:12.08 | unum | why would I care what a rep says over the actual law? |
| 22:12.21 | ezakimak | this is explaining the law |
| 22:12.29 | unum | anyways the banks are lent the money |
| 22:12.33 | unum | from the reserve |
| 22:12.40 | unum | sorry I do get my terms confused |
| 22:12.58 | unum | but it's explanation is wrong |
| 22:13.06 | unum | the banks are private |
| 22:13.15 | unum | the board of governors is not |
| 22:13.40 | unum | that's like saying the utility commission is a private company because utah power is |
| 22:14.03 | ezakimak | you're only seeing the surface |
| 22:15.52 | unum | the system is very complex and confusing |
| 22:15.58 | unum | I have been confused by part of it |
| 22:16.00 | ezakimak | yes, and on purpose |
| 22:16.07 | unum | economies are complex |
| 22:16.19 | unum | managing them is complex |
| 22:16.30 | ezakimak | by law, we could pay off the Fed for only $450million |
| 22:16.53 | unum | what would we pay them with? |
| 22:16.59 | unum | euros? |
| 22:17.04 | ezakimak | no, their own notes |
| 22:18.10 | unum | so then they would have all $450 million notes |
| 22:18.16 | unum | and what would I use to buy lunch? |
| 22:18.25 | ezakimak | notes from the us treasury |
| 22:18.26 | unum | actually there's a lot more notes than that |
| 22:18.34 | ezakimak | today, yes there are |
| 22:19.15 | unum | so is the "federal reserve" owed $450 million or $3 billion? |
| 22:20.02 | ezakimak | it's owed every note in circulation |
| 22:20.20 | ezakimak | but by law, can be repaid for only $450 million |
| 22:20.36 | ezakimak | paying back the original shareholders their initial investment |
| 22:21.00 | ezakimak | i don't know if that has to be adjusted for inflation or not |
| 22:21.39 | unum | well then it would be $3 billion |
| 22:21.52 | unum | or the exact amount of current currency |
| 22:21.53 | unum | I would think |
| 22:22.04 | ezakimak | no, because more has been issued |
| 22:22.22 | unum | thus the inflation |
| 22:22.26 | unum | the two are linked |
| 22:22.50 | unum | though I don't think it's really a one to one ratio |
| 22:22.53 | unum | but they are linked |
| 22:22.55 | ezakimak | right. you answered my question. there would be no adjustment then. simply $450million |
| 22:22.59 | unum | well I know it's not |
| 22:23.09 | unum | any ways |
| 22:23.24 | *** join/#utah jessie (~jessie@64.55.47.132) |
| 22:23.44 | ezakimak | but seriously, watch this on your lunch break sometime, http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2550156453790090544 |
| 22:23.44 | unum | hey that link quotes eccles |
| 22:23.50 | unum | I can't watch them |
| 22:23.59 | unum | there's too much in them that is obviously hype |
| 22:24.10 | unum | the fact that the banks are private is not secret |
| 22:24.19 | unum | they make it sound like it is |
| 22:24.23 | ezakimak | hype? in that one? it quotes bankers, presidents, and shows basic math |
| 22:24.40 | unum | does it claim the board is a private company? |
| 22:24.57 | *** part/#utah jessie (~jessie@64.55.47.132) |
| 22:25.00 | unum | because it's not |
| 22:25.07 | ezakimak | i don't remember if that video discusses that or not |
| 22:25.09 | unum | it's an independ federal agency |
| 22:25.17 | ezakimak | it is *not* a federal agency |
| 22:25.22 | unum | is too |
| 22:25.43 | ezakimak | no, it's not. it's been to court and declared not a federal agency. |
| 22:26.21 | unum | case name? |
| 22:28.58 | unum | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:29.09 | unum | is about the one of the private banks |
| 22:29.14 | unum | not the board |
| 22:29.16 | ezakimak | "In defending itself against a Bloomberg request for information under the Freedom of Information Act, the Federal Reserve objected by declaring that it was "not an agency" of the U.S. government and therefore it was not subject to the Freedom of Information Act. " |
| 22:30.32 | unum | again not the board of governors |
| 22:30.37 | unum | "federal reserve" |
| 22:30.47 | unum | in the case mentioned it was ruled "The Bank is a |
| 22:30.48 | unum | private, independent entity independently run by its own board of directors. It is not |
| 22:30.48 | ezakimak | there is *nothing* "federal" about it. |
| 22:30.50 | unum | run by the Federal Reserve Board of Governors or any other part of the executive |
| 22:30.53 | unum | branch. |
| 22:30.55 | unum | " |
| 22:31.13 | ezakimak | you can continue to believe the facade if you want |
| 22:31.32 | pdayton | It is somewhat difficult to say there is nothing federal about it when its chairman is appointed by the president |
| 22:31.33 | unum | are you saying the board has no power over the system |
| 22:31.59 | ezakimak | i am saying the board has independent control over the system, and *not* the elected government. |
| 22:32.10 | ezakimak | which means *private* control |
| 22:32.17 | unum | the board is appointed by the president and comnfirmed my congress |
| 22:32.30 | unum | all those people are elected |
| 22:32.32 | ezakimak | who are *debtors* to the bank... |
| 22:32.44 | unum | that's how all federal agency operate |
| 22:32.53 | ezakimak | it's not a federal agency |
| 22:32.59 | unum | so you don't believe the board is appointed by the president? |
| 22:33.06 | ezakimak | i never said it wasn't |
| 22:33.19 | ezakimak | do you think he actually chooses who to appoint?? |
| 22:33.35 | ezakimak | with a gun to your head, you will appoint whomever they tell you. |
| 22:33.51 | unum | do you think someone points a gun to his head as makes the apointment |
| 22:34.00 | ezakimak | not literally, of course |
| 22:34.07 | ezakimak | it's the nature of power |
| 22:34.10 | unum | what do you mean by gun then? |
| 22:34.12 | ezakimak | they own the debt, they have the power |
| 22:34.54 | ezakimak | pres. woodrow wilson admitted it, quite plainly, that the bank was in control |
| 22:35.11 | unum | maybe you should read about eccles |
| 22:35.24 | unum | I think his story explain it far better than any ones |
| 22:35.30 | pdayton | Why put the bank in control? |
| 22:35.44 | unum | the bank is not in control |
| 22:35.50 | ezakimak | sigh. |
| 22:35.51 | unum | the board of governors is |
| 22:36.06 | pdayton | Ok so why put the board of governors in control? |
| 22:36.24 | ezakimak | because the bankers like control. they profit. do whatever they want. |
| 22:36.25 | unum | pdayton: I believe an economy should be regulated |
| 22:36.46 | unum | as such there should be a federal agency in charge of regulating it |
| 22:39.04 | ezakimak | that's really ancillary to the root concept of who controls the money supply, and what currency we use |
| 22:39.33 | ezakimak | which should be we the people, not a private bank |
| 22:39.55 | unum | the money supply is controlled by a federal agency, weather you believe that federal agency has the abitily to black mail the president or not is a seperate issue |
| 22:40.15 | ezakimak | no, it is not controlled by a federal agency. |
| 22:43.28 | unum | but you admitt that everyone on the board was named by the president and confirmed by congress? |
| 22:43.34 | ezakimak | http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/19-reasons-why-the-federal-reserve-is-at-the-heart-of-our-economic-problems |
| 22:43.36 | ezakimak | section #4 |
| 22:43.50 | ezakimak | yes, so what? there is *no* oversight once appointed. |
| 22:43.59 | ezakimak | the fed has *never* been audited, and cannot be controlled |
| 22:44.09 | ezakimak | they are fully independent of anything "federal" |
| 22:44.33 | ezakimak | section #3 discusses who owns it |
| 22:44.57 | unum | ok but they are appointed by the federal congress |
| 22:45.03 | unum | they do have long terms |
| 22:45.18 | unum | but they also get called in by congress all the time |
| 22:45.21 | ezakimak | here's the keys, drive carefully.... |
| 22:46.51 | unum | ok so you do admit they are apointed by the federal government? |
| 22:47.34 | unum | there just needs to be more oversite by congress? |
| 22:47.42 | ezakimak | no, the whole system is problematic |
| 22:48.03 | ezakimak | it needs to go awy |
| 22:48.04 | unum | but you do admit that they are federally appointed? |
| 22:48.04 | ezakimak | away |
| 22:48.14 | ezakimak | of course |
| 22:48.23 | unum | so your statement about it being private is not true |
| 22:48.23 | ezakimak | but that's meaningless |
| 22:48.30 | ezakimak | no, it still holds |
| 22:49.01 | unum | we apparantly have different definition of private |
| 22:49.20 | unum | it is an independent federal agency |
| 22:49.27 | ezakimak | it is not a federal agency. |
| 22:49.30 | ezakimak | period. |
| 22:49.47 | unum | it is not a private coorperation |
| 22:50.00 | ezakimak | how it is declared under law is murky |
| 22:50.11 | unum | the board is a federal agency in every way possible |
| 22:50.13 | ezakimak | how it operates, in practice, is as a *private* entity |
| 22:50.16 | ezakimak | no it is not |
| 22:50.17 | unum | ok |
| 22:50.22 | unum | it's independent |
| 22:51.03 | unum | it can not write it's own charter |
| 22:51.05 | ezakimak | it is a black box, never been audited, with ultimate control over our economy, and positioned to effect massive transfers of wealth from the people to it's own parties |
| 22:51.07 | unum | it is not incorporated |
| 22:51.17 | unum | ok, that's true |
| 22:51.26 | unum | but it's still a federal agency |
| 22:51.27 | ezakimak | it is not regulated |
| 22:51.29 | ezakimak | it is not a federal agency |
| 22:51.58 | unum | tell me how the nsa is regulated |
| 22:51.59 | ezakimak | it "has ties" is the best you could say. but that is all just part of the mask |
| 22:52.04 | unum | how it's audited |
| 22:52.17 | ezakimak | the nsa can be audited by oversight committees of congress |
| 22:52.19 | unum | what makes the NSA a federal agency but not the board of gov |
| 22:52.21 | ezakimak | employees fired |
| 22:52.30 | ezakimak | told what to do, what not to do |
| 22:52.34 | unum | the fed can be audited |
| 22:52.39 | ezakimak | um, no, it can't |
| 22:52.42 | unum | there's a bill recommending it right now |
| 22:52.54 | ezakimak | there's been several bills asking for it "please?" |
| 22:52.57 | unum | http://oversight.house.gov/release/house-approves-legislation-requiring-audit-of-federal-reserve/ |
| 22:53.05 | ezakimak | it will not happen |
| 22:53.33 | ezakimak | if it were already a federal agency, they wouldn't need to pass a law to audit it |
| 22:53.38 | unum | there is a law that prevent the GAO from performing the audit |
| 22:53.52 | unum | just like there was a low prevent the fbi and cia from sharing certain information |
| 22:54.11 | unum | but the law can be changed |
| 22:54.29 | ezakimak | seriously, if you don't want to research it on your own, discussion is kinda pointless. |
| 22:54.45 | unum | the nsa told congress to get lost when they wanted certain information |
| 22:54.55 | unum | it's no different |
| 22:55.00 | unum | you won't research it |
| 22:55.05 | ezakimak | there's ample discussion of the constitutionality, power at hand, economy issues because of the fed |
| 22:55.12 | ezakimak | i have researched it |
| 22:55.47 | unum | actually the problem is you're just using weird definitions |
| 22:56.15 | ezakimak | you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig |
| 22:56.27 | ezakimak | just because "federal" is in the name does not make it a federal agency |
| 22:56.46 | unum | the board is an independent agency of the federal government, because of politics it is tough for congress to over see them, but they are still a government agency, they may have too much independce but that's a seprate issue |
| 22:57.24 | unum | the fact that every single member is an employee of the federal government and is appointed by the federal goverment and that it's chartered as afederal agency makes it a federal agency |
| 22:57.58 | unum | calling it a private corporation doesn't magically incorporate it in the state of delaware |
| 22:59.57 | ezakimak | did you even read #3 and #4 in that link? |
| 23:03.20 | unum | all about the banks |
| 23:03.25 | unum | nothing about the board |
| 23:03.35 | unum | you're confusing the banks and the boards |
| 23:03.57 | unum | the banks are private, that site says you can buy stock in them, I believe them |
| 23:04.10 | unum | I've agreed with that since the beginning |
| 23:04.48 | ezakimak | dunno why you are hung up on the board. they do whatever they please regardless of how they got there. |
| 23:05.41 | unum | I don't know why you continue to argue that they aren't a federal agency |
| 23:05.57 | ezakimak | because they are not. they themselves have declared it as so. |
| 23:06.01 | unum | where |
| 23:06.10 | unum | show me one place where they declare that |
| 23:06.12 | ezakimak | i posted the link to you a while back |
| 23:06.27 | unum | that's has a quote from the boards website talking about the banks |
| 23:06.38 | unum | did YOU read the links? |
| 23:07.36 | ezakimak | actually, it's right in #3--that pdf |
| 23:09.52 | ezakimak | "FRBNY is not an agency" |
| 23:11.51 | ezakimak | i need to got some food. bbiab. |
| 23:13.03 | unum | I must be looking at the wrong link there's no pdf link on my #3 |
| 23:13.10 | unum | I'm looking at the 19 reason one |
| 23:17.47 | *** join/#utah peno (~irc4me@c-76-23-34-158.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
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