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| 04:06.24 | levi | eightyeight: It takes the mindset of an emacs user to generalize a tool as gnus has rather than the more unixy mindset of tools like mutt and vim. It also helps that gnus is written in a high-level language rather than C. |
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| 04:07.01 | levi | By "mindset of an emacs user" I'm speaking more of philisophical approaches to tool-building rather than any aptitude. |
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| 04:26.07 | klys_ | ~slashdot |
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| 14:52.54 | eightyeight | levi: yes. indeed |
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| 14:53.22 | eightyeight | levi: i have actually tried a few different times now to learn and use emacs, and i keep getting too frustrated |
| 14:53.45 | eightyeight | levi: i remember my frustration learning vi years ago, and remind myself it is similar, but i just can't seem to stick with it |
| 14:53.57 | eightyeight | levi: but, i really want to learn gnus |
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| 15:55.09 | levi | gnus is a beast unto itself as well. |
| 15:55.26 | levi | I used to use it, but I haven't for a while. |
| 15:57.02 | levi | emacs has recently moved some of the semantic analysis stuff into the core package, so it has some real incremental parsers for several languages now. It's pretty slick. |
| 15:58.29 | levi | For C, I think the integration of sublime-edit with clang is a bit better, but I ended up going back to emacs anyway. |
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| 17:18.37 | youtah | Mornun' |
| 17:58.27 | levi | eightyeight: If you still want to learn emacs, here are a couple of great resources: http://www.masteringemacs.org/ https://github.com/technomancy/emacs-starter-kit/ |
| 17:59.06 | eightyeight | thx. i'll give it another honest go. |
| 18:00.09 | levi | Emacs24 has an integrated package install system, which makes it really easy to get new modes and themes and stuff. |
| 18:02.44 | macnewbold | ~emacs++ |
| 18:06.46 | levi | Also, C-h is your friend. Emacs is fairly self-documenting once you learn how to ask it the right questions. |
| 18:07.18 | levi | And ido mode, with ido-everywhere and fuzzy matching is awesome. :) |
| 18:07.29 | errstr | there is also viper mode in emacs with several settings for moving away from vi-style editing |
| 18:07.49 | levi | Yeah, there are a couple of different vi-style modes |
| 18:08.00 | errstr | keep in mind, though, even in the most 'vi' setting, it still isn't vi |
| 18:09.18 | errstr | i like the gdb integration into emacs, but, still can't get myself out of the modal editing of vim. just can't break the habit, it's too damn productive. |
| 18:10.05 | levi | I'm comfortable using both vim and emacs, and I use them both regularly. |
| 18:11.16 | errstr | I've found it very difficult to switch between the two with ease. |
| 18:11.40 | levi | Just takes practice. It's like another 'mode'. :) |
| 18:12.26 | errstr | If viper were better, I'd probably use emacs, since I think it is better in almost every aspect than vim. |
| 18:12.26 | levi | I'm definitely more of a power user in emacs than I am in vim. |
| 18:13.07 | goozbach | I miss my emacs foo |
| 18:13.17 | goozbach | should go to bed |
| 18:13.28 | goozbach | I've been up since 9am yesterday |
| 18:13.35 | levi | You might try the 'evil' mode rather than viper. I think it strives to behave more like vim. |
| 18:13.41 | levi | goozbach: Yes, you should go to bed. |
| 18:14.10 | errstr | levi: I'll try it, honestly the only thing, imo, that sucks about emacs is the actual text editing. |
| 18:14.21 | levi | Hah. |
| 18:14.59 | levi | Well, I generally like its text editing facilities, though I can understand why vim power users don't. |
| 18:15.14 | errstr | oh, that and ELisp deciding that dynamic scoping was a good idea |
| 18:15.39 | errstr | but, since I'm not planning on writing any elisp, that shouldn't matter |
| 18:16.46 | levi | Well, most all interactive lisp systems used dynamic scoping at one point until Sussman and Steele showed them all that lexical scoping was almost universally better and not that hard to implement. |
| 18:17.20 | levi | They've put lexical scoping in elisp now, though. |
| 18:17.35 | levi | I think the plan is to migrate elisp code gradually to use it. |
| 18:17.54 | errstr | To be fair, the only lisp that I can say that I know and could write important stuff in is Racket (which is a Scheme) |
| 18:18.04 | levi | I love Scheme. |
| 18:18.31 | errstr | I feel like Racket is the Python of Scheme languages... batteries included, with sane decisions |
| 18:19.20 | levi | I used Racket (back when it was plt-scheme) for one of my projects in an AI class. I used the integrated macro-based lexer and parser, which was really nice. |
| 18:19.46 | errstr | I wrote a CEK machine and a CPS transformer using their 'match', which is the most amazing matcher I've ever worked with |
| 18:20.09 | errstr | I've never seen a more powerful match in any language |
| 18:21.01 | levi | The great thing about Scheme is how simple, regular, and powerful the language is. And the specification is very short and readable, so there's never any question about what your program is supposed to do. |
| 18:22.25 | levi | I love pattern matching. I should check that one out. |
| 18:23.09 | errstr | I agree, having a regular language, in the chomsky sense, is a huge plus. |
| 18:23.45 | levi | That AI class was sort of a language playground for me. I also did a couple of the projects in ocaml, and pattern matching was hugely helpful. |
| 18:24.03 | errstr | for reference: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/match.html?q=match |
| 18:25.56 | levi | I am learning haskell (again) now. |
| 18:26.28 | macnewbold | why? |
| 18:27.04 | levi | I used it for a school project before (a compiler) but I was forced by the structure of the class to do things in a way that was against the grain of the language and I didn't get a whole lot of time to really learn it rather than bash away and the subset I knew. |
| 18:27.09 | levi | Because haskell is interesting. |
| 18:27.41 | macnewbold | fair enough |
| 18:28.15 | macnewbold | i was wondering what practical reasons people have for choosing haskell - i know a guy who is a huge fan of it, but have yet to understand what makes it special or well suited to particular needs |
| 18:31.37 | levi | It's got a very powerful type system, which allows for developing abstractions that can ensure important properties about their behavior. It's also reasonably fast, has some cool concurrency and parallel programming facilities, and has a smart and helpful community. |
| 18:36.04 | errstr | On a side note, I think it is the only graph-based lazy evaluator |
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| 18:36.26 | levi | It's also pretty good at letting you create domain-specific embedded DSLs that can interoperate in reasonable ways. |
| 18:37.10 | levi | Probably the only one that has reached somewhat outside of academia. |
| 18:37.36 | errstr | I heard somewhere that they realized it wasn't a great design choice and are thinking of changing it. |
| 18:38.16 | levi | I think that's a misunderstanding of something that was said a while ago. |
| 18:39.10 | errstr | Probably |
| 18:39.23 | levi | Chances of haskell proper moving to strict evaluation by default are pretty slim, as far as I can tell. |
| 18:39.47 | errstr | I just remember reading up on interpreters when I was building one and seeing that Haskell's was graph based and lazy |
| 18:40.06 | errstr | You don't need a graph to do lazy evaluation |
| 18:40.06 | levi | It's definitely the canonical lazy functional language. |
| 18:40.25 | levi | Yeah. |
| 18:40.54 | levi | I think the graph helps them do some pretty sophisticated optimizations, though. |
| 18:41.08 | errstr | What I understood was that they were moving away from graph-based call-by-need, to something else |
| 18:41.09 | levi | deforestation and the like. |
| 18:41.29 | errstr | Because it ended up being slower... but, I'm not on the mailing lists or anything. Just something I heard somewhere. |
| 18:41.29 | levi | I'm not sure where you heard that, but I don't think it's likely to happen. |
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| 18:42.09 | levi | Well, I'm sure such things have been discussed. |
| 18:45.30 | levi | The specification doesn't say how the evaluation has to be performed, it just constrains it denotationally. An implementation could definitely be made with a very different evaluation strategy than ghc has, but it has to retain non-strict semantics unless the standard itself changes. |
| 18:46.07 | errstr | basically, needs to be call-by-need... but no restrictions on how that is implemented. |
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| 18:48.49 | levi | It doesn't have to be call-by-need, it could by call-by-name. Call-by-need is an optimization. It has to be non-strict, since strictness changes the meaning of certain expressions. |
| 18:51.20 | levi | On a multicore machine, it might be reasonable to do speculative reduction of expressions and cancel ones that are shown to not be needed. |
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| 18:58.05 | levi | The idea is that haskell must evaluate an expression to a non-bottom value if one is possible from some reduction of the expression. Strict evaluation will produce a bottom value whenever any subexpression reduces to bottom. |
| 18:58.47 | levi | (where bottom means non-termination due to infinite loop or exception) |
| 18:59.07 | errstr | Interesting idea about speculative reduction, basically allow full beta reduction of expressions in parallel. |
| 18:59.57 | errstr | yeah, in call-by-name you get to reduce expressions that are irreducible in a strict evaluation and call-by-value |
| 19:00.04 | levi | I just came up with that off the top of my head, but it turns out it's also mentioned on the Haskell wiki on the 'lazy vs non-strict' page. |
| 19:01.10 | levi | ghc also performs strictness analysis so that it can evaluate eagerly when it can prove it does not change the semantics. |
| 19:01.57 | errstr | in cases where a function or variable will always produce a terminating and constant value, right? |
| 19:02.36 | levi | Yes. |
| 19:02.43 | errstr | neat |
| 19:02.53 | levi | It's a very sophisticated compiler! |
| 19:03.24 | errstr | yeah, I thought it was just cool because of HM type inference and graph-based reduction. |
| 19:03.55 | levi | It can take advantage of some of the fusion laws of the various recursion combinators to optimize a lot of common function compositions as well. |
| 19:04.45 | levi | Work on that sort of thing is ongoing, though. |
| 19:05.15 | errstr | goes back to writing non-tail recursive, call-by-value python scripts |
| 19:05.49 | levi | It seems that you can also specify some rewrite rules for your data types as 'pluggable optimizations' as well. |
| 19:06.06 | errstr | i'll have to read about the fusion laws of *-combinators |
| 19:06.18 | levi | goes back to writing low-level C code. |
| 19:06.22 | errstr | heh |
| 19:07.37 | errstr | maybe one day a HM-typed Scheme will become mainstream and we can all rejoice |
| 19:08.04 | levi | They've got funky names; catamorphisms (folds), anamorphisms (unfolds), hylomorphisms (fold + unfold), and some others that start to get more complex. |
| 19:09.03 | errstr | any resource you'd recommend? |
| 19:10.16 | levi | This paper presents them along with their universal properties and fusion properties: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.41.125 |
| 19:10.29 | levi | It's also got a funny title. :) |
| 19:10.54 | levi | It starts out fairly readable, but it gets rather dense as you get into it. |
| 19:12.37 | levi | This one is a bit easier, and concentrates just on fold: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.34.1618 |
| 19:18.05 | levi | This one is in a similar vein as well, but it's more of a compilation of lecture notes that ties the idea of equational reasoning about programs to a mathematical model of programs based in category theory and then to the implementation of a haskell-like language in that model and discussing stuff like the fusion rules in that context. |
| 19:18.10 | levi | http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.42.6862 |
| 19:18.39 | levi | It's surprisingly readable considering how that sounds, though it probably helped that I'd already gone through the previous two. |
| 19:19.04 | errstr | thanks! |
| 19:21.29 | levi | And if you ever want to read programming language theory papers, this is an awesome webapp that's aimed at showing you how the notation they use in most of them works: http://logitext.mit.edu/main |
| 19:22.13 | errstr | i've been reading those papers for a few semesters working towards a thesis |
| 19:22.36 | levi | It's a baby interactive theorem prover tutorial with javascript-based sequent calculus widgets. |
| 19:24.39 | levi | It was apparently built upon a fusion of Ur/Web, Haskell, and Coq. Crazy stuff, but it works remarkably well. |
| 19:24.55 | levi | Ur/Web is a really interesting web programming system. |
| 19:26.19 | levi | It's what you get when a crazy-smart ML geek decides to write a platform as efficient and type-safe as possible. |
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| 19:28.06 | levi | The resulting applications compile to native code with no garbage collection overhead. |
| 19:28.25 | levi | My web proxy at work is being flaky, I'm having trouble keeping a connection to my screen session. |
| 19:28.32 | levi | Going to get some work done. :) |
| 19:46.11 | youtah | So... what's up? |
| 19:49.51 | youtah | besides flaky connections? |
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| 19:55.56 | levi | Once I stopped typing, the connection stabilized nicely. ;) |
| 20:03.49 | youtah | I need sleep |
| 20:03.51 | youtah | lots of sleep |
| 20:04.02 | youtah | like 16 hours of sleep in the next day |
| 20:18.51 | youtah | Jeffs Law: Even after proof-reading, there are no typos until the email has been sent. |
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| 20:20.34 | youtah | I'm telling ya, there's something in exchange that messes with my emails! |
| 20:27.50 | levi | Heh. Those exchange gremlins... |
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| 20:38.28 | youtah | Dude |
| 20:38.52 | youtah | they have Kayaking in the Olympics. The one class that royally kicked my trash. cc: Jayce^ |
| 20:54.36 | Jayce^ | youtah: the guy that won the kayaking event for years was from my town |
| 20:54.40 | Jayce^ | jeremy's age |
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| 20:58.36 | youtah | dude, it seriously kicked my trash |
| 20:58.40 | youtah | pain. so much pain |
| 20:58.55 | youtah | of course he had us do all sorts of weird rescues, etc. |
| 20:59.21 | youtah | like swamping our kayak (so now it weighted +300lbs) and drag it while swimming laps across the pool 10 times. |
| 21:01.52 | Jayce^ | yup |
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| 21:16.40 | eightyeight | levi: emacs is stealing your internets. :) |
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| 21:37.12 | youtah | Almost 4pm. Time for some afternoon blabber http://i.imgur.com/36gow.gif |
| 21:37.49 | fozzmoo | Oh man, that's good. |
| 21:39.09 | youtah | I about cried when I opened it up |
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| 21:42.18 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 21:48.28 | macnewbold | meh, not a very funny yolk |
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| 22:02.25 | levi | eightyeight: Not emacs, it's several layers away. It's the ssh tunnel through an http proxy. |
| 22:03.02 | unum | has anyone ever used kableflags? |
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| 22:21.45 | youtah | never even heard of it |
| 22:22.15 | youtah | I also challenge ALL of you to do this at least once before the day is through: http://imgur.com/gallery/lT6GO |
| 22:23.31 | kylie | Ahaha, how silly! |
| 22:27.35 | kylie | *sigh* does anyone have GnuPG knowledge they could assist me with regarding Kmail? |
| 22:28.25 | klys | gpg [--homedir dir] [--options file] [options] command [args] |
| 22:30.14 | kylie | Yes, thank you. I guess Google is my ever cryptic friend. |
| 22:31.37 | JoshH | thunderbird and enigmail |
| 22:32.09 | JoshH | kmail should never be used or installed |
| 22:32.16 | kylie | I don't mind Kontact, really. |
| 22:32.18 | JoshH | like all other k stuff |
| 22:32.32 | kylie | Not a fan of KDE, I take it? |
| 22:33.04 | JoshH | :) |
| 22:33.45 | kylie | Ahaha, to each, his own! I'm not too zealous on Linux distros at this point in my n00b-ish ways. |
| 22:38.20 | kylie | Oh geez. |
| 22:38.29 | kylie | I just realized this channel is Linux specific. Makes a world of sense now. :X |
| 22:38.41 | JoshH | it's actually mostly politics |
| 22:38.54 | kylie | Yeah? |
| 22:39.21 | JoshH | and flaming over languages |
| 22:39.30 | kylie | Ahaha. |
| 22:39.37 | kylie | Perhaps I am out of my league. |
| 22:40.23 | JoshH | nah, it's noob friendly |
| 22:40.26 | JoshH | just quiet now for some reason |
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| 22:52.15 | klys | ~slashdot |
| 22:53.39 | klys | hahahaha `domestic drones' |
| 23:10.47 | youtah | klys, are they referring to teenagers? |
| 23:11.36 | youtah | s/teenagers?/teenagers on cell phones?/ |
| 23:12.19 | youtah | they seem to be drones. Or zombies |
| 23:19.03 | klys | must mean you came too close. Cell Phone Surveillance Is An Invasion Of Privacy |
| 23:19.25 | youtah | ah, lol... didn't even think of it that way |
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| 23:25.42 | *** join/#utah macnewbold (~macnewbol@wfw.vivint.com) |
| 23:29.30 | klys | was reading all this stuff on wikipedia today: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Anxiety_Disorder when I was a teenager that's what I thought of adults, and as a guy I think girls think that about men who don't constantly flirt. |
| 23:31.42 | klys | especially in school, like when the boys start going off and the girls leave the room |
| 23:32.54 | klys | because it's not real. men had to make up all this stuff just so they can keep talking, though it's not about real stuff, stuff you care about |
| 23:34.02 | klys | a female voice is a weapon. it's like listening to birds. it punishes the mind to try and communicate with. |
| 23:37.57 | *** join/#utah mindjuju_ (~mindjuju@173-10-26-193-BusName-utah.ut.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
