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| 03:29.54 | shalkie | Did someone decide to go wander in the Uintas as The Beefy Miracle? |
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| 04:23.55 | shalkie | Nope.. Someone just trying to be funny in the mountains above ogden dressed as a hotdog |
| 08:06.53 | klys | ~quote MU |
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| 13:32.48 | *** topic/#utah by eightyeight -> logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | ZSH 5.0 released - http://github.com/zsh-users/zsh |
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| 16:39.59 | Migs | what would be some cool tech gadgets to give away as prizes that aren't much money? We're thinking some Eye-fi cards, maybe a cheap flipcam |
| 16:40.02 | Migs | what else? |
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| 17:05.45 | jsmith | Migs: Nexus 7 tablet... Raspberry Pi... |
| 17:16.57 | Jayce^ | jsmith: you made it home! :) |
| 17:18.08 | jsmith | Jayce^: Did you hear about my horror story? |
| 17:19.02 | Jayce^ | saw a couple tweets about that |
| 17:19.15 | Jayce^ | missed the exciting conclusion |
| 17:19.40 | Jayce^ | btw, turns out that the MAX broke down, wouldn't have made the flight via that either |
| 17:20.00 | Jayce^ | people came running to get on the plane the same time as us, had all jumped cabs because the train was dead |
| 17:25.03 | jsmith | Jayce^: The exciting conclusion was that I sat on the tarmac in Birmingham waiting three hours for the medical examiner to arrive :-( |
| 17:29.05 | Jayce^ | just the way you wanted to end a week out |
| 17:31.33 | jsmith | Exactly :-( |
| 17:31.59 | jsmith | Father-in-law, mother-in-law, and two brothers-in-law showed up yesterday |
| 17:32.09 | jsmith | Sister-in-law and her family show up tomorrow |
| 17:32.26 | jsmith | So it's a bit crazy around my house |
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| 18:07.25 | programmerq | going to take the accuplacer at UVU, hopefully tonight. I want to try my hand at going to school again. |
| 18:09.31 | jsmith | Whee! |
| 18:09.50 | jsmith | has thought about going back to school for a Masters degree, but can't decide what to study yet |
| 18:13.24 | macnewbold | underwater basket weaving |
| 18:13.27 | macnewbold | puppetry |
| 18:13.35 | macnewbold | computer science |
| 18:13.40 | macnewbold | modern dance |
| 18:13.44 | macnewbold | take your pick |
| 18:14.07 | jsmith | Out of those, I'd pick computer science |
| 18:14.18 | jsmith | That being said, I'm not really interested in being a full-time programmer again |
| 18:14.39 | macnewbold | hehe |
| 18:14.47 | macnewbold | MIS or MBA perhaps? |
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| 19:41.52 | programmerq | helly gundy! |
| 19:42.11 | gundy | programmerq, word! |
| 19:42.39 | gundy | helly to you! |
| 19:42.49 | programmerq | s/helly/hello/ |
| 19:43.15 | gundy | s/helly/hello |
| 19:43.35 | gundy | come on ibot... don't make me work for it. |
| 19:43.38 | gundy | s/helly/hello/ |
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| 19:55.25 | shalkie | I see that iPads are now a recruiting tool: http://www.uberconference.com/jobs |
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| 20:22.42 | tedp | interesting/informative: http://www.isidewith.com/ |
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| 20:43.34 | manithree | tedp: Only to people who actually vote based on issues, and they probably already know who they side with. |
| 20:44.41 | jima | manithree: nope, actually i didn't. |
| 20:45.13 | jima | it's interesting; from what people have been telling me i expected a completely different candidate. |
| 20:45.58 | eightyeight | ~seen sjansen |
| 20:46.09 | ibot | sjansen <~sjansen@ip65-46-62-142.z62-46-65.customer.algx.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #utah, 45d 22h 44m 3s ago, saying: 'The link was at the end of the sentence I pointed out.'. |
| 20:46.35 | eightyeight | since taking his new job, he's abandoned his friends |
| 20:48.37 | manithree | jima: who did you think, and who did isidewith say? |
| 20:50.12 | jima | i expected ron paul...i'm not a fanboy or anything, but a lot of people have suggested that i'm in line with his positions on various things |
| 20:50.17 | jima | guess people were WRONG |
| 20:50.22 | jima | or the site is ;-) |
| 20:50.34 | Q_Continuum | jima: Site is biased against him ;-P |
| 20:50.40 | Q_Continuum | Perhaps |
| 20:51.14 | jima | s/Site/World/ |
| 20:52.42 | Q_Continuum | Heh, true. |
| 20:55.06 | manithree | If it picked Gary Johnson instead of Ron Paul, that's understandable. |
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| 21:02.02 | Jayce^ | agreed |
| 21:14.39 | jima | gary johnson came in third. |
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| 21:28.28 | Jayce^ | yeah, I tied gary and RP |
| 21:29.47 | cedwards | don't know what i think about the wording on some questions on isidewith.com |
| 21:30.14 | Jayce^ | that's why sometimes you have to use the 'input your own opinion' |
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| 21:37.09 | salparadise | anyone using comcast having issues? |
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| 22:16.00 | shalkie | How is going to the TNG 25th Anniversary event? |
| 22:16.11 | shalkie | http://www.fathomevents.com/classics/event/startrektng.aspx |
| 22:16.16 | shalkie | s/How/Who/ |
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| 22:19.49 | shalkie | jalbretsen: You? |
| 22:19.57 | shalkie | feels reasonably confident about that one... |
| 22:22.07 | jalbretsen | shalkie: I pride myself on not going to conventions |
| 22:22.30 | jalbretsen | although, there is an ever increasing chance you might find me at a Doctor Who convention one of these days |
| 22:22.33 | shalkie | I hadn't looked at it as a convention... |
| 22:24.03 | shalkie | I have never been to a SciFi convention. |
| 22:25.55 | programmerq | I would totally go to the TNG thing if I didn't have plans already. |
| 22:26.52 | rsimpkins | Gosh. I wish people would simply talk about things in a nice way rather than resulting to screaming at each other. Human nature. :( |
| 22:30.46 | shalkie | thought they were talking nicely... |
| 22:31.42 | rsimpkins | I'm talking about the whole gun control fight. |
| 22:31.56 | rsimpkins | "FROM MY COLD! DEAD! HANDS!!!!!!!!" |
| 22:32.35 | macnewbold | i wish people would think through some of the consequences of tighter gun control |
| 22:32.57 | macnewbold | when it's mostly criminals carrying guns around… then where are we? |
| 22:34.01 | rsimpkins | They proponents of gun control honestly believe it works. Why do they believe that? How are they processing that information? If we first seek to understand them, then we would be in a better position to change their minds. |
| 22:34.33 | rsimpkins | One thing I can't seem to find anything about is what type of "gun control" they are talking about. |
| 22:34.49 | rsimpkins | Are they advoacting not selling guns to known homicidal maniacs? |
| 22:35.01 | rsimpkins | Or, how about not selling guns to 12 year olds? |
| 22:35.07 | rsimpkins | It isn't exactly clear. |
| 22:35.53 | rsimpkins | I think they are just trying to make people mad. |
| 22:36.19 | rsimpkins | This is about it: "Our hearts are still heavy with sadness after the tragedy in Colorado, but we need to start today on efforts to prevent the next attack," Lautenberg said in a statement Sunday. "We should begin by passing my legislation to ban the sale of high-capacity gun magazines." |
| 22:36.49 | rsimpkins | So why does Lautenberg think that not selling high-capacity magazines would "prevent the next attack?" |
| 22:37.15 | macnewbold | it might slow him down if he had to change clips more often… :-? |
| 22:37.29 | rsimpkins | That still wouldn't prevent an attack, would it? |
| 22:37.52 | macnewbold | nope |
| 22:38.18 | rsimpkins | I honestly think if 10% of the people in the theater had handguns, and were trained in how to use them, that would prevent a lot more deaths. |
| 22:38.26 | macnewbold | if you want to more tightly control guns in the hands of bad guys… why not put more guns in the hands of the good guys? |
| 22:38.32 | rsimpkins | So, if it is about preventing deaths during an attack, then why isn't that a good idea? |
| 22:38.46 | rsimpkins | Exactly. |
| 22:39.22 | rsimpkins | I have a fairly independent point of view, and frankly I find the lack of reasoned approaches rather concerning. |
| 22:39.41 | macnewbold | yeah, i love the video of the 71-year old guy last week in florida who defended all the patrons of an internet cafe during an attempted robbery by two kids in hoodies, armed with a gun and a baseball bat |
| 22:39.53 | macnewbold | rsimpkins: agree |
| 22:40.13 | macnewbold | and that's before we even get into the 2nd amendment right to bear arms arguments... |
| 22:40.22 | JoshH | rsimpkins: what about the fact that tons of bystanders were in the way and the dude was pretty well armored? IF he got hit, he might have been knocked down or something i guess, but i think at least a couple other guys would have been shot |
| 22:40.37 | rsimpkins | JoshH: You're right. Of course. |
| 22:40.53 | rsimpkins | JoshH: But they could have at least done something immediate and direct to try and stop the attack. |
| 22:41.04 | JoshH | the argument about more guns has some merit, but it's certainly not a magic solution to these things |
| 22:41.12 | rsimpkins | Honestly, I am only advocating well trained people be given that privlage. |
| 22:41.18 | macnewbold | if there were a magic solution, someone would have used it already... |
| 22:41.28 | rsimpkins | I don't want Aunti Emma who took a 2 week CCW course bouncing bullets around the theater. |
| 22:41.38 | macnewbold | utah's concealed firearms permit process seems pretty good to me |
| 22:41.39 | JoshH | ya my only real issue with concealed permits and whatnot are that even retards can get the |
| 22:41.45 | JoshH | m |
| 22:42.02 | macnewbold | then again, we also have the right to carry non-concealed weapons too… just put it in a holster, and you're legal to wear it around |
| 22:42.17 | rsimpkins | I work with an individual who has extensive tactical firearms training. I'd depend on him in a pinch any day of the week. |
| 22:42.29 | macnewbold | sure |
| 22:42.59 | JoshH | rsimpkins: i think those guys are a minority of ccw holders |
| 22:43.02 | rsimpkins | IMHO, such people who achieve that higher level of training should be given _A LOT_ more latitude for carrying firearms. |
| 22:43.13 | JoshH | but ya, it would be nice to have one when you need one |
| 22:43.41 | rsimpkins | Like, make them defacto deputies or reserve police officers or something? I dunno. |
| 22:44.01 | JoshH | i wouldn't go that far... |
| 22:44.01 | rsimpkins | Give them the privlage of carrying weapons anywhere they want. |
| 22:44.08 | rsimpkins | However that works. |
| 22:44.30 | rsimpkins | If you've recieved 100+ hours of tactical firearms training, you're good to go in my book. |
| 22:44.33 | JoshH | they already can, except where it's not allowed |
| 22:44.57 | rsimpkins | That is what I mean, maybe for those select few who go even farther we grant them the privlage of carrying them anywhere. |
| 22:45.00 | rsimpkins | Schools, etc. |
| 22:45.15 | rsimpkins | Like CCW-advanced. |
| 22:45.47 | manithree | Remember how crime dropped with the 1994 AWB, then went back up when it expired in 2004? |
| 22:45.49 | JoshH | i think more guns being out there would mean more gun deaths statistically, even when you factor in the mass shooting every couple years |
| 22:46.16 | manithree | Oh wait, it didn't. |
| 22:47.57 | rsimpkins | Didn't an off-duty officer stop the trolley square shooter? |
| 22:48.14 | manithree | rsimpkins: yep |
| 22:48.22 | rsimpkins | I can't recall the final report, but I seem to remember something about how he stopped him from shooting more people. |
| 22:48.22 | JoshH | manithree: the awb is stupid anyway, even informed anti-gun people agree |
| 22:48.40 | manithree | But there's already talk on banning high capacity magazines. |
| 22:48.48 | manithree | s/on/of |
| 22:48.53 | manithree | Again. |
| 22:49.26 | rsimpkins | I don't know why democrats aren't advocating for gun control the other way around. Instead of taking away tools, shouldn't they be about adding tools? Any democrats in here want to explain that position? |
| 22:49.45 | JoshH | to me that seems like it would fall into the "reasonable compromise" category |
| 22:49.58 | JoshH | banning high capacity mags |
| 22:50.10 | manithree | JoshH: How do you figure that? |
| 22:50.40 | JoshH | it seems like a fairly reasonable thing to do, that would make it a little harder to kill quite as many people as you could with an easily obtainable huge mag |
| 22:50.52 | JoshH | won't stop everyone, but might stop some, etc |
| 22:51.06 | JoshH | no laws will solve the issue perfectly, of course |
| 22:51.20 | manithree | Yeah, but they didn't once, and it had no effect. Why do it again? |
| 22:51.22 | JoshH | as far as gun control goes, some ideas make more sense than others |
| 22:51.28 | JoshH | and that one is on the more reasonable side, imo |
| 22:51.52 | rsimpkins | It seems like a waste of resources, though, chasing down "solutions" that aren't solutions at all. |
| 22:51.58 | manithree | I can't type. The AWB banned hi-cap mags once. Didn't work, so let's do it again? How's that common sense? |
| 22:52.26 | JoshH | most mass shootings don't use high cap mags, afaik |
| 22:52.35 | rsimpkins | We need to take a scientific approach, IMHO. And that is -really- hard to do. |
| 22:52.41 | JoshH | i think i read that this guy's gun that had one jammed |
| 22:52.46 | JoshH | which seems lucky |
| 22:53.04 | manithree | His did, and they stopped the Gabbie Giffords shooter because his hi-cap mag jammed, and they grabbed it. |
| 22:53.25 | rsimpkins | So, maybe high capacity mags actually PREVENT deaths because they jam more? |
| 22:53.31 | JoshH | so we got lucky twice |
| 22:53.49 | rsimpkins | We should probably think about these things. Maybe we should ban LOW capacity mags. ;-) |
| 22:53.52 | JoshH | if those guys couldn't easily obtain those mags in the first place, we might not have needed the luck |
| 22:55.21 | manithree | Mass shootings are statistically a very small number of murders. Even if it were possible to make good laws to prevent/minimize those, the affect would be minimal (statistically). |
| 22:55.22 | JoshH | one of the main problems many have with "gun nuts" is that they seem stubbornly unwilling to make even the tiniest compromises. are high capacity mags really so awesome and fun that they should be totally legal and easy to get? |
| 22:55.37 | JoshH | they |
| 22:56.07 | manithree | the main problem with anti-gunners is they want to do things that have been proven not to prevent crime. Why is that? |
| 22:57.28 | JoshH | i think that's basically a strawman |
| 22:58.09 | JoshH | nobody expects to prevent gun crimes. but if someone is going to shoot up a theater, it would be better if they just had a pistol or two with 10 round mags |
| 22:58.38 | JoshH | so far, we've mentioned 2 cases where the criminal had higher cap magazines and luckily they jammed |
| 22:58.41 | rsimpkins | Asking about high cap mags is kind of like asking why pickles on your hamburger causes your cholesterol to go up. Seems like it needs some evidence behind it. |
| 22:59.12 | rsimpkins | Someone dies of a heart attack, and everyone demands "remove pickles from hambergers so we can prevent the next one." |
| 22:59.22 | JoshH | the 2 cases mentioned are evidence that they get into the wrong hands too easily, imo |
| 22:59.23 | manithree | The evidence is that hi-cap mags were illegal 1994-2004, with 0% affect on crime. |
| 22:59.44 | JoshH | manithree: there weren't a ton of mass shootings in that time period |
| 22:59.50 | JoshH | the reality is that they are rare, regardless of the laws |
| 22:59.57 | manithree | Statistically there was no change. |
| 23:00.01 | JoshH | it's one of those things that has the potential to be a very bad thing |
| 23:00.12 | JoshH | not very statistics-friendly |
| 23:00.55 | JoshH | and to be honest, nobody really knows what has had what effect on crime anyway. there are millions of factors |
| 23:01.05 | JoshH | it comes down to what people consider to be common sense |
| 23:01.26 | manithree | I'm not arguing causation. That's not necessary. If it worked, there should have been evidence. There isn't. |
| 23:01.40 | JoshH | obviously we do draw a line as a society, which is why we can't all have bombs |
| 23:01.50 | JoshH | so the question is where do we draw the line when it comes to "arms" |
| 23:01.56 | rsimpkins | JoshH: Unless you are a criminal. Then you can have whatever you want. ;-) |
| 23:02.06 | JoshH | is anything allowed no matter what as long as a weapon is a "gun"? |
| 23:02.30 | shalkie | holds breath for a "moment" in memory of Sally Ride |
| 23:02.49 | rsimpkins | Can I have an 18 pounder in my front lawn so my neighbor will stop letting his dog come over to 'pay a visit?' |
| 23:03.26 | JoshH | rsimpkins: the average nutjob can't easily get a full auto gun or a bomb. that's why they are used so rarely. if they were at walmart, don't you think the shootings we've had would have had a lot more deaths? |
| 23:03.40 | rsimpkins | JoshH: Of course. |
| 23:04.01 | rsimpkins | Based on my experience talkign with the police, most criminals are motivated by drugs. |
| 23:04.12 | rsimpkins | They sell their guns early on due to their value, so they can buy more drugs. |
| 23:04.13 | manithree | JoshH: Would you agree that crime has soared in Britain since they banned guns? |
| 23:04.18 | JoshH | so why can't we extend that logic to things like high cap mags? just because the stats don't reveal anything from when they were banned doesn't mean we can't consider the situatioj with them |
| 23:04.28 | rsimpkins | And if they get a gun, they usually sell it. |
| 23:04.58 | JoshH | manithree: i don't know much about britian, but i'm not anti-gun or in favor of banning guns anyway |
| 23:05.13 | rsimpkins | JoshH: Because I think that people who understand firearms are saying that isn't really an issue that will help. |
| 23:05.16 | JoshH | i simply think there are plenty of simple compromises, and i'd put high cap mags into that category |
| 23:05.37 | JoshH | another good compromise would be requiring a high IQ and proficiency to own one |
| 23:05.48 | rsimpkins | JoshH: So, it isn't immediatly obvious that it is a rational decision. |
| 23:05.50 | JoshH | or at least for a ccw |
| 23:06.36 | rsimpkins | Can we do that one, and then also require everyone to take a test before they can vote? ;-) |
| 23:06.40 | JoshH | rsimpkins: what most druggies do is irrelevant. not every criminal involved with drugs is a user, crazed shooters aren't generally druggies, etc |
| 23:07.07 | rsimpkins | JoshH: I was speaking generally, but you're right about it not being relevent to mass shootings. |
| 23:07.15 | manithree | I think you should be required to take a test and carry a card to exercise your 1st amendment right to free speech. |
| 23:07.28 | manithree | That seems like a reasonable compromise |
| 23:07.30 | JoshH | mass shootings are a special case, but im in teh camp that thinks we should do something about them |
| 23:07.52 | JoshH | why do you think that? |
| 23:08.01 | JoshH | speech isn |
| 23:08.10 | JoshH | speech isn't dangerous, most of the time |
| 23:08.27 | JoshH | seems silly to think that |
| 23:08.28 | manithree | But it can be. Hi-cap mags aren't usually dangerous either. |
| 23:08.57 | rsimpkins | I think that is kind of a stretch, TBH. |
| 23:09.04 | JoshH | indeed |
| 23:09.09 | manithree | I'm being facetious. |
| 23:09.21 | rsimpkins | carrying lots of bullets isn't quite the same as drawing pictures of some favorite religious icon. |
| 23:09.25 | JoshH | someone made a post the other day about how gunners tend to use those kind of absurd analogies and stretches in their arguments, and that's an example |
| 23:10.12 | JoshH | high cap mags are only dangerous when someone is using them to shoot people |
| 23:10.22 | manithree | But you can't see why your position isn't logical? Let's do something that obviously won't help just because it will make me feel better? |
| 23:10.27 | JoshH | speech is only dangerous if you're yelling fire in a theater or inciting stupid religious nuts |
| 23:10.38 | JoshH | but even then a lot more has to happen for anyone to get hurt |
| 23:10.48 | rsimpkins | Let me put it this way, based on my limited but not inconsequential life-long experience with firearms - I think focusing on high-cap magazines would be a waste of resources. And I think there may be other areas were we can more dramatically shape the outcome of mass shootings. |
| 23:11.02 | rsimpkins | And which we might agree. |
| 23:11.17 | rsimpkins | And therefore, my hope is that everyone would focus on what we do agree upon. |
| 23:11.23 | rsimpkins | Which we aren't doing. |
| 23:11.27 | rsimpkins | Which was my origional point. |
| 23:11.34 | fozzmoo | Oh, I wish I had time to engage you guys on this. Of course, I think anyone should be able to buy anything and I think more people should be armed when they attend movies. The government should criminalize actions like "assault with a deadly weapon" and "murder" regardless of the objects that were used to commit those crimes. |
| 23:11.48 | JoshH | rsimpkins: i see things like registration, testing requirements, bans on high cap mags, etc as being things that would be reasonable to include in comprehensive gun control reform |
| 23:12.25 | manithree | JoshH: Even though countries that do that end up with more innocent people killed? |
| 23:12.43 | JoshH | everyone should be able to own a gun, but not everyone should be able to own any kind of gun on the planet, there should be some rules that make sense, imo |
| 23:12.50 | fozzmoo | I disagree. |
| 23:13.06 | JoshH | fozzmoo: with me? |
| 23:13.33 | JoshH | manithree: the comparisons with other countries never work well |
| 23:13.34 | fozzmoo | And if you look at the current restrictions like the NFA, you'll see the government made completely illogical sweeps. The first NFA in 1934 made silencers illegal. |
| 23:13.39 | JoshH | it's like comparing our broadband with korea's |
| 23:13.58 | fozzmoo | Silencers were not used to kill people. They were used to shoot targets without so much noise. |
| 23:14.04 | fozzmoo | People used to buy them at hardware stores. |
| 23:14.06 | *** join/#utah jessie (~jessie@74-81-224-30.static.sdyl0430.digis.net) |
| 23:14.34 | JoshH | i'm meh about silencers |
| 23:14.45 | JoshH | don't really care either way |
| 23:14.51 | JoshH | but i can understand the argument against them |
| 23:15.02 | fozzmoo | The rest of the NFA of 1934 was designed to get money out of people who had weapons of arbitrary dimensions. If your shotgun was 1/2-inch too long than the fed. government deemed was allowed, you hjad to register it for $200. |
| 23:15.16 | manithree | And $200 was LOT of money in 1934 |
| 23:15.20 | fungus | A commonality amongst most mass shootings, that may be a root cause, is mental instability. |
| 23:15.20 | rsimpkins | buys fozzmoo a crate of 40mm grenades. |
| 23:15.22 | fozzmoo | It was a revenue bill designed to put all the out of work prohibition-era IRS agents to work on something else. |
| 23:15.37 | JoshH | fozzmoo: fwiw, i think most micro-management rules about what features guns can have are stupid |
| 23:15.43 | fungus | Let's put our resources in making mental health more important in our society |
| 23:15.57 | rsimpkins | fungus++ |
| 23:15.58 | fungus | remove the stigma of it. |
| 23:16.13 | manithree | JoshH: how is banning hi-cap mags not micro-management of gun features? |
| 23:16.17 | JoshH | i simply believe that it is possible to have some rules about guns and how easy it is to get them without being too restrictive |
| 23:16.49 | JoshH | manithree: i said most |
| 23:16.54 | *** join/#utah nisovin_ (~nisovin@64.55.129.66) |
| 23:16.56 | fungus | That doesn't mean I'm against the kind of reforms that JoshH is describing, but I think the ROI on those kinds of reforms will be lower than mental health reforms. |
| 23:17.15 | fozzmoo | The ATF today is nothing but a bunch of incompetent wannabe police officers who can't do anything right. Cases in point: Ruby Ridge, WACO, and others. |
| 23:17.17 | manithree | You've rejected my evidence that gun control doesn't work. Where's your evidence that it does? |
| 23:17.32 | manithree | fozzmoo: Don't forget fast&furious |
| 23:17.43 | JoshH | depends what you consider working |
| 23:17.45 | fozzmoo | The best way to reduce gun crime is to arm innocent, law-abiding people. |
| 23:17.54 | fozzmoo | Yes, we can't forget F&F. Sheesh. |
| 23:17.59 | JoshH | the AWB was really a minor issue that couldn't be expected to change much |
| 23:18.03 | manithree | fozzmoo: that |
| 23:18.05 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: And hopefully train them so they don't accidently shoot they wrong people? |
| 23:18.12 | JoshH | i'm not surprised the stats don't show that it made a huge difference |
| 23:18.18 | fungus | fozzmoo, that won't help the crazy mass shooters, it would exacerbate those. |
| 23:18.36 | manithree | The AWB banned hi-cap mags. Why would it work if we did it again? |
| 23:18.42 | fozzmoo | Uh... crazy mass-murderers don't need guns. |
| 23:18.43 | JoshH | all i know is that mass shooters getting high cap mags easily and without a trace can't be a good thing, and that making law abiding target blasters sign up on something to get one won't hurt anything |
| 23:18.55 | fozzmoo | If someone wants to kill a large number of people, they'll find a way. |
| 23:19.21 | JoshH | sure, but nutcases have varying levels of dedication |
| 23:19.25 | JoshH | just like the rest of us |
| 23:19.35 | fungus | fozzmoo, right, and if the people around them are trying to use their own arms to kill the mass murderer, there will be more collateral killings in conjunction. |
| 23:19.51 | manithree | fungus: cite? |
| 23:20.03 | rsimpkins | I got it... we'll make all mass shooters register 30 days before any attack. Then we'll know when and where they live. Perfect. I can't believe I hadn't thought of that before. |
| 23:20.05 | fozzmoo | Someone said a couple days ago that we now know how many people could die or be wounded if a man entered a darkened theater of unarmed people. What we don't know is how many shots that person would have gotten off if there was even one person in the theater who could fire back. |
| 23:20.29 | rsimpkins | Then we'll make the penelty for not registering punishable by instant-street-justice. ;-) |
| 23:20.38 | JoshH | manithree: his source would be from a liberal university study, you wouldn't accept it :P |
| 23:21.06 | manithree | You're the one who has rejected the statistics, not me. |
| 23:21.19 | fungus | Untrained people with guns is more dangerous than 1 murderer. |
| 23:21.30 | JoshH | i haven't rejected them, i've said that the AWB was stupid and that i'm not surprised that it didn't make a big difference on the graphs |
| 23:21.43 | manithree | fungus: do you have any proof or evidence of that? |
| 23:22.01 | JoshH | it's not like banning high cap mags is going to reduce gun violence alone |
| 23:22.12 | JoshH | but it might help ensure that hte next mass shooter uses a smaller mag and kills less people |
| 23:22.15 | JoshH | so what would be wrong with it? |
| 23:22.17 | fozzmoo | I have two high-capacity mags for my rifle. |
| 23:22.35 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: How often do they jam? |
| 23:22.41 | manithree | I have high-capacity mags for my pistols, also. |
| 23:22.47 | fozzmoo | They're made by the manufacturer, so they haven't. |
| 23:22.54 | manithree | Define high-capacity. |
| 23:23.02 | fozzmoo | That is, they're not third-party knock-offs. |
| 23:23.13 | fozzmoo | Oh, mine are both 25-round. |
| 23:23.25 | fozzmoo | Not 100-round barrels, but they're more than standard. |
| 23:23.30 | fungus | manithree, it's pretty obvious. In a crowded theater, the untrained person will miss and hit an innocent instead of a murderer. |
| 23:23.43 | JoshH | if you only had 10 rounders, how sad would you be? or if you had to pass tests and register to get the big ones, would that really suck? |
| 23:24.33 | manithree | fungus: What's pretty obvious is that there are 800,000-1.5 million defensive gun uses every year by law abiding citizens, and statistically CCW holders miss perps and hit bystanders less than cops. |
| 23:24.42 | fozzmoo | Great. The innocent, law-abiding people will be limited to 10 round magazines and those who would commit gun-related crimes? They'll adhere to the law also? |
| 23:24.44 | manithree | where's your evidence that more armed citizens is bad? |
| 23:24.52 | rsimpkins | Someone write an app so we can vote up the best ideas on how to solve this please. Too many ideas, and not enough "focus" on what we all agree upon and what we all think would actually help. |
| 23:24.55 | fungus | manithree, I said untrained people. |
| 23:24.57 | rsimpkins | I gotta run. Later. :) |
| 23:25.01 | fozzmoo | me too., |
| 23:25.22 | JoshH | fozzmoo: gun accessories aren't like drugs, where banning them creates more on the black market |
| 23:25.37 | fungus | fozzmoo suggested everyone should be able to buy a gun. That means untrained, poor shooters. |
| 23:25.38 | fozzmoo | gotta eat dinner and then head to the Star Trek: The Next Generation 25th anniversary event at the movie theaters. |
| 23:25.39 | rsimpkins | Put your vim where your mouth is - and write software to save people's lives. ;-) |
| 23:25.51 | JoshH | i'm actually running also, to see batman, in fact. hopefully my theater won't have a madman |
| 23:25.57 | rsimpkins | I'll host it for you. |
| 23:26.19 | fozzmoo | fungus: I think everyone should be responsible, but I don't think the government has ever done a very good job of enforcing that in any regard. |
| 23:27.09 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: That... didn't translate well. |
| 23:27.31 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: You want everone to be responsible, but dont' think the government can make people be responsible? |
| 23:27.46 | rsimpkins | Isn't that... well... kind of obvious? |
| 23:28.01 | fungus | I disagree. Gov't has done well overall, (consider police enforcement). Yes they have made many mistakes and extreme laws. But overall it has been pretty good. |
| 23:28.11 | manithree | Car accidents virtually stopped after licensing requirements, right? |
| 23:28.36 | fungus | manithree, Exactly, license requirements for guns is good. |
| 23:28.38 | rsimpkins | The government seems to only respond after someone has been irresponsible. I don't think they do much to make anyone be responsible in the first place. |
| 23:28.47 | fozzmoo | Right, we didn't remove cars. We provided incentives for better cars. |
| 23:28.55 | fozzmoo | And better driving. |
| 23:29.15 | fozzmoo | Anyway- I'm only about 25% here. Maybe tomorrow I can provide more good info. :) |
| 23:29.17 | fungus | fozzmoo, you mean, disincentives for poor driving. |
| 23:29.34 | fungus | But same idea anyway |
| 23:29.45 | manithree | Some people don't get sarcasm. |
| 23:30.04 | fungus | Everyone with a gun is bad. Licensed people w/ guns is ok. |
| 23:30.27 | rsimpkins | everyone with blue eyes is also a nazi. |
| 23:30.28 | fozzmoo | Licenses work great for operating motor vehicles... |
| 23:30.32 | rsimpkins | There, argument won. I said nazi. |
| 23:30.52 | fozzmoo | But the constitution didn't express that everyone needed free access to motor vehicles to protect them from a tyrannical government. |
| 23:31.34 | manithree | Licensing for vehicles really doesn't do much. |
| 23:31.35 | fungus | But anyway, gun control isn't going to help the mass shootings much, if any. I still insist that changing the stigma of mental health is more important, not just for this issue, but for the general well being of our society. |
| 23:32.13 | manithree | The problem isn't guns, the problem is crazy. |
| 23:32.18 | fungus | fozzmoo, the constitution protects well regulated militias having arms, not all people. |
| 23:32.22 | manithree | -- apologies to Jon Stewart |
| 23:32.30 | fungus | manithree, Exactly! |
| 23:32.40 | fungus | work on fixing crazy |
| 23:32.40 | manithree | The militia is the people. |
| 23:32.46 | fozzmoo | fungus: I disagree. |
| 23:32.53 | fozzmoo | manithree: exactly. |
| 23:33.27 | fozzmoo | Well regulated militias would fall under the auspices of government regulation. That prevents tyranny... how? |
| 23:33.29 | fungus | manithree, well regulated |
| 23:33.43 | manithree | That means well-trained and proficient. |
| 23:34.32 | manithree | If what you're saying is true, why does the next part say "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" it it really means the right of the government? |
| 23:34.46 | manithree | None of the other amendments are to protect the rights of the government |
| 23:36.10 | fungus | anyway, the meaning of the phrasing of the 2nd amendment is frequently debated, and I don't want to get into it. |
| 23:37.07 | fungus | Mental health awareness is much more important than any of that anyway. |
| 23:37.51 | manithree | fungus: That is probably true, but it is questionable whether or not anything real can be done to prevent things like the recent mass murders. |
| 23:38.26 | fungus | No, that isn't questionable. |
| 23:38.33 | fungus | Mental health |
| 23:38.57 | fungus | Remove the stigma, and make it available to anyone that needs it. |
| 23:39.28 | manithree | That might help, but the people that really need it aren't likely to volunteer. |
| 23:39.52 | manithree | It's everybody else that has problems, not them (in their eyes). |
| 23:42.00 | fungus | If mental health becomes as common as physical health, then even the crazies will likely volunteer. We need a social movement here. |
| 23:42.19 | manithree | I think infringing liberties (not just gun rights, but forced mental care, etc.) to try to fix a problem that is statistically about as dangerous as a bucket a) won't work anyway, and b) will have more unintended consequences than intended. |
| 23:42.35 | fungus | I didn't say forced. |
| 23:42.54 | fungus | Are you forced to see a doctor, no. Do most people see doctors, yes. |
| 23:43.11 | fungus | I just want our society to accept mental health as important as physical. |
| 23:43.14 | fungus | It can happen. |
| 23:44.25 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@208.53.57.58) |
| 23:45.33 | manithree | Most of the focus in the media for this shooting has been getting guys like the joker locked up before they can hurt anybody. That's the force I was referring to. |
| 23:46.36 | fungus | But when (not if) mental health becomes standard, problems that lead to that level of crazy can be fixed before it ever gets that far. |
| 23:47.01 | *** part/#utah manithree (~blr@li4-76.members.linode.com) |
| 23:47.53 | fungus | mental problems are often like cancer, can be detected earlier, possibly resolved, before critical issues. |
| 23:48.46 | fungus | Anyway... I have work to do. |
| 23:54.01 | klys | ~slashdot |