| 00:00.01 | jsmith | brlabs: Some people would say it's easy -- some would say it's difficult |
| 00:00.10 | ShunkyDave | there may be challenges, both personal or social, or there may not be any at all |
| 00:00.19 | jsmith | brlabs: No formal time or examination requirements |
| 00:00.51 | ShunkyDave | Are you asking because you're interested brlabs? |
| 00:01.12 | brlabs | does a convert and a born and bred mormon get the same status in mormon society? |
| 00:01.26 | ShunkyDave | same status as a convert? |
| 00:01.27 | brlabs | ShunkyDave sure im interested |
| 00:01.36 | ShunkyDave | sorry, misread |
| 00:01.42 | brlabs | ShunkyDave are they treated equally? |
| 00:01.47 | ShunkyDave | yes, both a convert and a born and bred are equal |
| 00:01.48 | jsmith | brlabs: Sure |
| 00:02.17 | brlabs | so its not uncommon to have a mormon born daughter marry a convert? |
| 00:02.37 | jsmith | No, not at all |
| 00:03.20 | jsmith | My best friend joined the church about 12 years ago -- his wife was born to a Mormon family, and she was baptized when she was eight. |
| 00:03.38 | brlabs | does the mormon theology have a different version of history to other religions? |
| 00:03.58 | ShunkyDave | I don't think so, but I'm not that familiar with other religions |
| 00:04.03 | ShunkyDave | and their view of history |
| 00:04.52 | jsmith | brlabs: I'm sure that different religions emphasize different things, but from my (limited?) view I wouldn't say that mormon theology has a different view of history in general than other religions that I'm aware of |
| 00:05.13 | ShunkyDave | jsmith -- do you know if anyone at the Jerusalem center can share to Jerusalem natives? |
| 00:05.58 | jsmith | ShunkyDave: I think that all proselyting at the Jerusalem center is prohibited, but I can try to find out more |
| 00:06.01 | brlabs | Does mormonism have an in built law system? |
| 00:07.28 | jsmith | brlabs: I'm not sure I understand the question... |
| 00:07.34 | brlabs | religious law |
| 00:07.50 | jsmith | There are certainly commandments that Mormons believe in following |
| 00:07.58 | brlabs | a law system, like christian canon law, islamic sharia law, hindu law, jewish halakhic law |
| 00:08.10 | jsmith | But not really a legal system per se |
| 00:08.24 | brlabs | are there courts? |
| 00:08.28 | jsmith | In general, Mormons believe in honoring and sustaining the law of the land in which they live |
| 00:08.50 | jsmith | There are disciplinary councils for serious offenses, but that's as close as you might get to a court |
| 00:09.09 | jsmith | (and the worst punishment would be to get excommunicated from the church) |
| 00:09.11 | ShunkyDave | there are commandments one must live by |
| 00:09.20 | brlabs | laws to live by sort of thing |
| 00:09.24 | ShunkyDave | yes |
| 00:09.44 | brlabs | and are they very specific and involve every aspect of life? |
| 00:09.54 | ShunkyDave | chastity, morality, no drinking / smoking / drugs |
| 00:10.18 | brlabs | is there a system of matchmaking ? |
| 00:10.19 | ShunkyDave | the 10 commandments of course |
| 00:10.23 | ShunkyDave | no matchmaking |
| 00:10.42 | brlabs | there are no laws governing the selection of spouses? |
| 00:10.43 | jsmith | Obviously that depends on your perspective... I have a couple of friends who are ultra-orthodox Jews -- they think we have it really easy |
| 00:11.13 | jsmith | Other friends of other religions think I have it really hard, because I can't smoke a cigar or drink alcohol with them... |
| 00:11.19 | ShunkyDave | no laws governing selection of spouse |
| 00:11.34 | brlabs | alcohol is forbidden in mormonism? |
| 00:11.38 | ShunkyDave | it is |
| 00:11.55 | brlabs | what about certain foods? |
| 00:12.00 | brlabs | can you eat anything? |
| 00:12.26 | ShunkyDave | no observations like kosher or not |
| 00:12.47 | brlabs | obviously :) |
| 00:12.58 | brlabs | are there things you're not allowed to eat though? |
| 00:13.09 | jsmith | brlabs: In general, there's a prohibition on alcohol, tobacco, tea, and coffee. Other than that, there are some guidelines to eat vegetables and grains, eat meat sparingly, and keep your both healthy |
| 00:13.18 | jsmith | brlabs: But not specifics outside of the ones I mentioned above |
| 00:13.30 | ShunkyDave | the idea is a healthy balance |
| 00:13.31 | brlabs | coffe and tea interesting |
| 00:13.34 | brlabs | do you view them as drugs? |
| 00:14.36 | ShunkyDave | interesting question |
| 00:14.52 | jsmith | brlabs: Not per se, but we do try to avoid anything addictive in nature |
| 00:15.26 | ShunkyDave | well said, jsmith :) |
| 00:15.31 | ShunkyDave | wasn't sure what to say |
| 00:18.43 | brlabs | Do you have any sites that you consider especially holy? |
| 00:19.14 | ShunkyDave | temples |
| 00:19.28 | ShunkyDave | and those are found all over the world |
| 00:19.34 | ShunkyDave | each is as holy as the others |
| 00:21.01 | brlabs | Do you consider sites that christianity considers as holy as such? |
| 00:23.28 | jsmith | brlabs: I guess in some ways, but we're not as big of places or relics being holy as say, the Catholics |
| 00:25.09 | ShunkyDave | right |
| 00:25.40 | ShunkyDave | There are even sites that are important to the LDS religion, and they're good as tourist fodder, but they're not holy |
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| 02:34.07 | levi | Weird, you don't often see a serious Q&A session about mormonism here. |
| 02:35.38 | ShunkyDave | then I must have picked a good day to log on :) |
| 02:47.55 | programmerq | brlabs: if I may ask, what prompted you to start asking questions? |
| 03:41.17 | Sargun_Screen | I wonder what #telaviv must look like. |
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| 15:06.09 | jalbretsen | http://blastr.com/2012/07/image-of-the-day-star-war-5.php I want to see this at the next UTOSC |
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| 15:14.52 | Jayce^ | jalbretsen: that's awesome |
| 15:15.04 | Jayce^ | betcha redbeard could do it |
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| 16:33.09 | youtah | uhg |
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| 17:01.42 | youtah | it's awfully quiet in here.... |
| 17:02.14 | goozbach | stupid monday |
| 17:02.26 | youtah | agreed |
| 17:03.42 | goozbach | this monday has been more mondayish than normal |
| 17:05.14 | youtah | agreed |
| 17:05.36 | youtah | especially since I was in all of Saturday and Sunday night too |
| 17:05.50 | goozbach | I set out to be at work at 9am |
| 17:05.55 | youtah | so I'm lagging and tired |
| 17:05.57 | goozbach | woke up late |
| 17:06.11 | goozbach | stopped to do some gardening in the cool of morning |
| 17:06.17 | goozbach | that took longer than I wanted |
| 17:06.34 | goozbach | didn't leave the house till 1030 |
| 17:06.47 | goozbach | got to the coffeeshop I was gonna work at around 11 |
| 17:06.54 | goozbach | turns out their internet is broken |
| 17:07.02 | goozbach | so I drove the half hour back home |
| 17:07.04 | goozbach | grrr |
| 17:07.14 | youtah | yuck |
| 17:10.03 | ShunkyDave | internet broken? DNSChanger? |
| 17:10.23 | goozbach | ShunkyDave: no idea |
| 17:10.39 | goozbach | all of the places I go use wanderingwifi and they are all aparently down |
| 17:11.22 | pashdown | what coffee shop? |
| 17:11.25 | youtah | If the entire coffee shops internet is down, then no the DNS changer |
| 17:11.31 | youtah | not |
| 17:11.59 | youtah | unless it attacked their router, but from what I understand, it only targeted Windows machines |
| 17:12.12 | pashdown | maybe their wireless is routed through a windoze machine |
| 17:12.20 | youtah | hee, true |
| 17:12.28 | youtah | if that's the case, then they probably deserve it? |
| 17:12.29 | pashdown | put in a plug for xmission. we'll put in a free dual band wireless for them. |
| 17:12.47 | youtah | i'm just kidding, I actually like Windows |
| 17:12.56 | youtah | ducks and hides |
| 17:13.54 | goozbach | pashdown: in Athens GA? |
| 17:14.00 | goozbach | I'd be all over that |
| 17:14.30 | pashdown | well it works on any internets. i just can't fix it if something goes wrong. :) |
| 17:14.34 | youtah | I'll tell you who needs that, is sunset coffee in Sandy. The place is always packed, and their wifi is always unreliable. We always tether our phones. |
| 17:14.44 | pashdown | ill give them a call |
| 17:14.51 | goozbach | pashdown: ohh, I think we could help each other out. |
| 17:15.05 | goozbach | I'll get them to give you a call, and I'll go on-site to fix it |
| 17:15.23 | youtah | (that's where I go to do my homework. I think the owners are Dave and Neil?) |
| 17:15.35 | pashdown | okily |
| 17:18.29 | brlabs | hi |
| 17:19.34 | jima | resists the urge to make up "facts" about LDS. |
| 17:20.36 | youtah | lol |
| 17:20.43 | youtah | I enjoyed reading the comments |
| 17:21.39 | jima | i have to applaud the people in here who answer truthfully every time...i've noticed that it's a semi-regular thing. |
| 17:22.09 | youtah | while I am LDS, I have a difficult time answering questions for some reason |
| 17:22.30 | jima | i'm not LDS, and i'm a big jerk. bad combination. |
| 17:22.39 | youtah | Eh |
| 17:22.50 | youtah | I enjoy joking around too much, that's my biggest problem |
| 17:22.55 | youtah | howdy brlabs |
| 17:23.07 | brlabs | hey youtah hope all is well |
| 17:23.17 | youtah | all is well. I think I might go home and sleep. |
| 17:23.24 | youtah | Just tired. Very tired |
| 17:23.26 | jima | youtah: curse you! |
| 17:23.31 | youtah | lol jima |
| 17:23.52 | jima | is rather tired, too...just finished moving (for the most part) yesterday. |
| 17:24.29 | brlabs | what is the age of of adulthood in LDS? |
| 17:24.42 | jima | this moving-in-july thing is getting old. :-| |
| 17:25.07 | manithree | brlabs: is this a polygamy riddle? |
| 17:25.28 | brlabs | nope |
| 17:25.30 | youtah | 18? |
| 17:25.41 | brlabs | its common practice for religions to have a certain age of adulthood |
| 17:25.46 | brlabs | for example for jews its 13 |
| 17:26.00 | jima | now i am a man! |
| 17:26.03 | brlabs | yea |
| 17:26.08 | youtah | um, we encourage youth to not date until they are 16 |
| 17:26.16 | brlabs | its not about dating |
| 17:26.24 | jima | (of course, i'm about the worst jew ever.) |
| 17:26.30 | brlabs | its about being considered an adult, in the religious sense |
| 17:26.43 | manithree | Made me think of "What's an LDS perfect 10?" (answer 5x 2s) |
| 17:27.32 | jima | manithree: seems fairly wise, wouldn't want any of them to be jealous. |
| 17:28.22 | brlabs | youtah is it frown upon to date people who are not LDS? |
| 17:29.25 | youtah | yes and no, I'd say it's the same with any other religious group |
| 17:29.51 | youtah | My brother in law is an athiest, and he's totally awesome. We supported the marraige and love him. |
| 17:30.22 | youtah | of course, I know some people tend to freak out over little things like that |
| 17:30.51 | jima | atheist-lover? DIE, HERETIC! |
| 17:31.02 | youtah | I think I know you were asking brlabs |
| 17:31.27 | youtah | the LDS church believe that the age of accountability (the age in which they are responsible for their sins) is at the age of 8 years old. |
| 17:31.44 | jima | oh, interesting. |
| 17:32.08 | brlabs | both male and female? |
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| 17:32.27 | youtah | We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and no Adams transgressions, which is why we don't baptize infants. Yeah, for both male and female. |
| 17:33.17 | youtah | This was written by Joseph Smith (i believe) in response to a series of questions for a news paper |
| 17:33.19 | youtah | http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,106-1-2-1,FF.html |
| 17:33.54 | youtah | It's a good, all around, set of information |
| 17:34.15 | brlabs | do you have to cook food in a certain way? |
| 17:34.23 | youtah | nope |
| 17:34.36 | youtah | so it doesn't kill you? ;-) |
| 17:34.41 | Jayce^ | in a casserole |
| 17:34.44 | youtah | LOL |
| 17:34.54 | youtah | yes |
| 17:34.54 | jima | in minnesota we call it "hotdish" ;-) |
| 17:35.29 | brlabs | for instance to avoid from cooking in certain times, avoid from certain ingredients in certain times |
| 17:36.10 | youtah | nope, nothing like kosher or halal |
| 17:36.41 | jima | the only ingredient restriction that comes to mind is like, alcohol...had a discussion about beer brats the other day at work. |
| 17:36.49 | youtah | right |
| 17:37.12 | brlabs | are there traditional mormon foods? |
| 17:37.19 | youtah | I saw that in the previous conversation, so I figured I didnt need to add additional clarification |
| 17:38.13 | jima | youtah: i dunno, in many of those cases the alcohol gets burned off, but i can understand why that's still a point of contention. |
| 17:38.34 | youtah | no, not like you'd find in some other religions. Although, as Jayce^ pointed out, you might consider "Funeral Potatoes" (shredded potato casserole) a religious food. |
| 17:38.50 | goozbach | jello and ice cream |
| 17:39.06 | goozbach | utahans eat more of both per-capita than any other state |
| 17:39.10 | youtah | just because we love those foods |
| 17:39.13 | goozbach | (or so I've heard) |
| 17:39.16 | youtah | +1 |
| 17:39.25 | goozbach | jello with carrot shavings? |
| 17:39.29 | youtah | nasty |
| 17:39.33 | goozbach | not had that in a while |
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| 17:39.39 | jima | backs away |
| 17:39.46 | brlabs | do you eat meat? |
| 17:39.58 | youtah | I <3 bacon & hamburgers |
| 17:40.00 | goozbach | brlabs: had pork ribs yesterday and today actually |
| 17:40.15 | brlabs | can you eat any kind of meat ? |
| 17:40.26 | jima | youtah: i love bacon cheeseburgers...like i said, i'm a terrible jew. |
| 17:40.37 | youtah | pretty much. |
| 17:40.56 | youtah | Mmmm, bacon cheeseburger |
| 17:41.33 | goozbach | brlabs: there are no prohibitions on the types of meat to eat |
| 17:42.30 | youtah | This has a *great* explanation about the foods: http://www.lds.org/study/topics/word-of-wisdom (click the "view more" link to expand) |
| 17:44.13 | brlabs | do mormon farmers have any special rules to follow when they grow their crops? |
| 17:44.45 | youtah | no |
| 17:45.09 | brlabs | are there in fact rules that only apply to certain kind of professions and roles in society at all? |
| 17:45.39 | goozbach | brlabs: not that I can think of |
| 17:45.40 | youtah | Not really, but clergy are not paid. |
| 17:46.10 | manithree | Well, general authorities who have to quit their jobs get a "living allowance" |
| 17:46.38 | youtah | yeah, but like Bishops, stake presidents, Elders Quorum presidents, etc don |
| 17:46.40 | youtah | 't |
| 17:46.47 | manithree | right |
| 17:47.08 | goozbach | brlabs: it basicly boils down to "obey the commandments, obey the word of wisdom, keep the covenants you make" and anything outside of that is pretty much hands-off from the church's perspective |
| 17:48.27 | youtah | right |
| 17:49.18 | brlabs | and how many mormons are there around the world? |
| 17:49.31 | ShunkyDave | hello again brlabs |
| 17:49.43 | brlabs | hey ShunkyDave:) |
| 17:50.41 | manithree | http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/2011-statistical-report-april-2012-general-conference?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+LDSNewsRoomTop15+%28RSS%3A+LDS+Newsroom%29 |
| 17:52.13 | brlabs | i see its quite common in south america |
| 18:01.19 | brlabs | apparently there was some friction with the mormon church here in israel |
| 18:02.14 | brlabs | about their building in jerusalem in particular, and to a lesser extent about some of their activities like the fact that they baptise holocaust victims which jews dont like |
| 18:04.07 | fugue88 | We're supposed to submit names of only our direct ancestors for baptism. Some members have stepped out of those bounds, but we've recently put better software checks in place to determine ancestry. |
| 18:04.12 | programmerq | brlabs: you're referring to baptisms by proxy of the dead, right? It's actually against regulations of the church to do so, though some still slip through the cracks. |
| 18:04.43 | programmerq | and by to do so, I'm referring to holocaust victims |
| 18:05.11 | brlabs | baptising post mortem without family consent |
| 18:05.29 | brlabs | jews really dont like that, apparently this issue resurfaces every now and then |
| 18:06.07 | programmerq | it does indeed resurface, but I'm not familiar with any specific instance. |
| 18:06.16 | fugue88 | There was one a few months ago. |
| 18:06.21 | fugue88 | A repeat offender, even. |
| 18:06.32 | fugue88 | About a month later we had the better checks in place. |
| 18:07.18 | Migs | it's been the policy to not proxy-baptize holocaust victims for quite awhile |
| 18:07.42 | programmerq | yeah, the first presidency sent out a letter to be read on Sunday reminding members of that policy, so I figured there had to have been a recent incident. |
| 18:07.57 | Migs | not sure why...if you don't think it accomplishes anything, what's the harm? |
| 18:08.23 | JoshH | people just think of it is a weird cult ritual over their dead relatives and don't "like" it |
| 18:08.35 | JoshH | in utah baptizing the dead seems like a normal, regular thing |
| 18:08.46 | goozbach | and *THAT* is reason enough to not do it |
| 18:08.47 | JoshH | other people still think it's one of the weirder things about mormons though |
| 18:09.22 | Migs | yeah, well they're the weird ones |
| 18:09.34 | JoshH | of course it doesn't harm anything, but when you hear "mormons perform baptism ritual for anne frank", it's not good PR |
| 18:10.41 | programmerq | now, I believe if an actual descendant of a holocaust victim became a mormon and wanted to submit their relatives names, that is indeed allowed, no? |
| 18:11.07 | fugue88 | https://www.ksl.com/?nid=1016&sid=19319871 |
| 18:11.14 | Migs | there's info about it in Handbook 1, but I'm not sure, programmerq |
| 18:11.18 | fugue88 | programmerq: I believe it is allowed in that case. |
| 18:11.22 | JoshH | what is the actual belief about that anyway? are dead people just supposed to be sitting there waiting for the celestial kingdom until some kid up here gets dunked for them? or is it not taken literally, or what? |
| 18:11.41 | Migs | JoshH: Not exactly. |
| 18:11.55 | Migs | Everyone's "waiting" up there for judgment day, regardless of their baptismal status |
| 18:12.26 | Migs | but every now and then someone waiting gets a power-up |
| 18:13.01 | JoshH | so nobody is in any of the kingdoms yet? |
| 18:13.08 | Migs | N0 |
| 18:13.09 | Migs | No |
| 18:14.04 | Migs | right now they're in the 'spirit world' as it's sometimes called |
| 18:14.32 | JoshH | lol |
| 18:14.35 | brlabs | but its only for those who havent been baptise |
| 18:14.45 | Migs | No, even the baptized are there, waiting the day of judgment |
| 18:15.14 | brlabs | whats the idea of baptising people who arent mormon? |
| 18:15.28 | brlabs | and never accepted mormonism in their own life |
| 18:15.32 | Migs | because God commanded everyone should be baptized |
| 18:15.38 | Migs | This gives them the chance |
| 18:15.49 | brlabs | so you baptise for them and they are forced into it? |
| 18:15.49 | JoshH | i wonder if he really meant it though... i mean, the logistics |
| 18:15.53 | JoshH | and what about cavemen, etc |
| 18:16.05 | programmerq | no, they aren't forced into it, they can choose to accept it |
| 18:16.09 | Migs | http://mormon.org/faq/baptism-for-the-dead/ |
| 18:16.41 | brlabs | so they can accept mormonism after death? |
| 18:16.44 | Migs | Yes |
| 18:16.56 | Migs | that's one way of putting it at least |
| 18:17.01 | brlabs | so they can sin for their whole existence and then just accept it after death? |
| 18:17.17 | Migs | Perhaps. God will judge. |
| 18:17.35 | programmerq | brlabs: technically, yes, though if they sinned their whole life, it would likely be hard for them to accept it |
| 18:17.45 | programmerq | because part of accepting it as actually actively accepting it |
| 18:17.45 | Migs | That's the point of baptism...purging yourself of sin and accepting Christ |
| 18:17.53 | programmerq | which means changing and becoming a better person |
| 18:18.05 | Migs | it's the same issue with the death-bed repentance idea |
| 18:18.18 | brlabs | now I understand the interest in geneaology |
| 18:18.26 | programmerq | indeed |
| 18:18.42 | brlabs | you want to find the details of as many dead people as you can so you can baptise them to mormonism |
| 18:18.49 | Migs | presumably, most of the genealogy work and baptisms for the dead will take place after the millennium. We're barely scratching the surface. |
| 18:19.02 | Migs | brlabs: And do the other temple work. |
| 18:19.22 | Migs | endowment ceremony, marriage ceremonies, etc. |
| 18:19.26 | Migs | those are done for the dead, too |
| 18:20.03 | brlabs | are the mormon genealogical archives open to the public? |
| 18:20.22 | Migs | brlabs: http://new.familysearch.org |
| 18:21.30 | Migs | only members can use it to report temple work being done, though...since, obviously, they're the only ones who can do it |
| 18:22.18 | brlabs | i think as far as baptising holocaust victims or anyone they arent personally affiliated with would require at the very least close circle family consent |
| 18:22.40 | JoshH | do people literally believe that god cares about baptism, or is it one of those folk belief things where it's just a symbolic tradition thing? |
| 18:22.41 | Migs | brlabs: There's quite a few official rules on when you can do it |
| 18:22.53 | Migs | like you have to wait 10 years after someone's death, etc. |
| 18:23.10 | brlabs | you need thir family's consent |
| 18:23.11 | Migs | JoshH: My opinion is that it's both. |
| 18:23.47 | Migs | JoshH: And I think baptisms for the dead are largely for the benefit of the living, to give a great opportunity to serve and experience the temple ceremonies |
| 18:24.10 | Migs | John 3:5 is pretty clear, though |
| 18:24.26 | ShunkyDave | Migs -- your opinion might change if you could ask more of the dead that have been baptized :) |
| 18:24.29 | Migs | and it's a long-standing Christian tradition |
| 18:24.40 | Migs | ShunkyDave: Perhaps, but currently I can't |
| 18:25.00 | ShunkyDave | lol |
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| 18:39.11 | Migs | hahahahahahaha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callista_Gingrich |
| 18:40.41 | manithree | Migs: lol |
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