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| 01:16.15 | Tumbly | hello, World |
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| 01:28.32 | klys | ~slashdot |
| 01:28.37 | tumbly | hello, world |
| 01:28.52 | klys | whassup |
| 01:29.12 | tumbly | not mucj |
| 01:29.57 | klys | looks like google won the oracle-google trial (above) |
| 01:30.07 | tumbly | that's nice |
| 01:30.28 | shalkie | Yeah, but you have to give oracle points for moxie to even try it... |
| 01:30.37 | tumbly | It's pretty rediculous that oracle thinks they can sue for making your own implementation of java |
| 01:32.04 | tumbly | at least it's java, and not scheme or something |
| 01:33.52 | klys | java was apache licensed I guess |
| 01:36.03 | klys | legally, it makes one wonder what happens to the android SDK if you can't license an API |
| 01:38.40 | klys | and what was MSVC all about ever |
| 01:44.47 | klys | this really makes it into the annals of end-user support |
| 01:46.55 | klys | what does the application layer mean for metrics in the economy, given this scenario |
| 01:50.45 | klys | if the machine can do it: then everyone should do it |
| 01:51.34 | klys | with all notable stunts/hacks |
| 01:52.33 | klys | placing VHDL at the cornerstone of the economy |
| 01:55.22 | klys | then animators with code to render characters |
| 01:57.06 | klys | then excise redmond support and bring us back to the era of the demoscene |
| 01:59.32 | klys | jack up hardware prices, and pin everyone into programming their own TV set |
| 02:01.08 | TodPunk | http://www.humblebundle.com/ <--- GREAT deal here. |
| 02:01.24 | klys | brings game and record sales back to the bookstore |
| 02:01.58 | tumbly | great deal indeed |
| 02:02.03 | tumbly | as usual |
| 02:02.14 | tumbly | 3 and 4 were the best though |
| 02:02.24 | TodPunk | yes, but usually not so many huge hitters at once |
| 02:03.00 | TodPunk | calling Psychonauts and Bastion an "Indie" game is keeping that definition loose. |
| 02:03.59 | tumbly | 4 had a lot of good ones |
| 02:04.17 | TodPunk | I don't remember what games were in each off the top of my head, so I'll take your word for it |
| 02:04.56 | tumbly | bit.trip, Crayon Physics, Jamestown, shank, Super meat boy, and VVVVVV were all on 4 |
| 02:07.05 | tumbly | so how do I tab complete in emacs? |
| 02:07.09 | TodPunk | I haven't played SMB or Shank. I didn't like Jamestown that much (it's not my style, probably a great game in the genre). VVVVVV was awesome, and my kids love it. Bit. Trip is fun for a bit, and then incredibly frustrating. Crayon Physics is pretty cool. |
| 02:07.25 | TodPunk | I agree that it was a great one, though. |
| 02:07.32 | TodPunk | Totally worth every penny I threw down. |
| 02:07.34 | klys | tumbly: M-x text-m<TAB> |
| 02:07.41 | tumbly | I think bit trip was more fun with a wiimote. ;P |
| 02:08.49 | tumbly | strange.. M-x is typing a character for some reason |
| 02:08.55 | klys | alt-x |
| 02:08.59 | tumbly | yeah |
| 02:09.40 | tumbly | maybe it's something to do with fluxbox. |
| 02:10.27 | tumbly | I mean like C-n in vim |
| 02:10.29 | klys | setxkbmap -model pc105 -symbols 'pc+us' |
| 02:12.13 | tumbly | nevermind |
| 02:12.17 | tumbly | I was using xterm |
| 02:13.02 | klys | I could try that... |
| 02:13.40 | tumbly | so in vim, if I were typing a word I had already typed, then I could press C-n and C-p to choose between a list of completions. |
| 02:13.54 | tumbly | Is there an equivilent in emacs? |
| 02:15.01 | klys | I don't know. C-h b for keybindings |
| 02:16.53 | klys | using blackbox here, xterm + emacs -nw allows M-x on this setup |
| 02:17.17 | tumbly | well |
| 02:17.37 | tumbly | I switched to wmii, and gnome-terminal, and I don't have that problem |
| 02:17.46 | tumbly | back to the original question |
| 02:18.10 | tumbly | is there a way in emacs to finish a word like tab completion in bash |
| 02:18.49 | klys | when choosing a file it can. other stuff would be lisp programming and you'd have to choose a mode that supports it |
| 02:18.58 | tumbly | another question: How do I redo |
| 02:19.06 | klys | C-y |
| 02:19.37 | klys | there's no undo: C-z sends SIGSTOP |
| 02:19.49 | klys | so there's no redo |
| 02:19.58 | tumbly | that makes a newline |
| 02:20.03 | tumbly | C-y |
| 02:20.09 | klys | because you're pasting |
| 02:20.13 | tumbly | C-_ is undo |
| 02:20.36 | klys | hmm |
| 02:21.16 | tumbly | if you undo enough times, it starts to redo, but that can take a while |
| 02:21.31 | klys | M-x redo ? |
| 02:22.07 | klys | noo |
| 02:22.23 | klys | I don't know what the lisp it's doing |
| 02:24.36 | klys | project is complete: soo I will release the first NASM fdxms.zip |
| 02:24.43 | klys | *soon |
| 02:24.58 | tumbly | what project |
| 02:25.08 | klys | www.nasm.us www.freedos.org |
| 02:26.18 | tumbly | ? |
| 02:26.33 | tumbly | What are you writing in NASM? |
| 02:26.34 | klys | freedos -> fdxms |
| 02:27.03 | tumbly | oh |
| 02:27.15 | tumbly | missed the fdxms part |
| 02:28.41 | tumbly | so what does fdxms do? |
| 02:30.33 | klys | it's XMS memory for DOS |
| 02:31.07 | klys | you can allocate high memory to your program in chunks |
| 02:32.41 | tumbly | ok |
| 02:35.39 | tumbly | hmm undo/redo in emacs is pretty different.. |
| 02:35.58 | tumbly | undo is redo, because you undo a previous undo |
| 02:36.13 | tumbly | That's why there's no redo command |
| 02:38.05 | tumbly | M-/ is word completion |
| 02:38.11 | klys | ok |
| 02:39.37 | tumbly | every command is put on the stack. |
| 02:39.57 | tumbly | so undo pops the stack, but puts itself on the stack |
| 02:40.13 | klys | I wonder what my editor would look like with word completion |
| 02:40.22 | tumbly | so if you do another command, and undo again, then it will pop the last undo off the stack |
| 02:40.38 | tumbly | I like the way vim does word completion |
| 02:41.03 | tumbly | C-n and C-p to go next and previous in a list that shows up when you press either of them |
| 02:41.12 | tumbly | It's smart too |
| 02:42.16 | klys | you would have a context including all the words that had been typed |
| 02:42.21 | tumbly | If I say class Foo {Foo();} in a header file, and type Foo::F[C-n] then it will finish Foo::Foo |
| 02:42.44 | tumbly | It understands syntax |
| 02:43.00 | klys | though this doesn't make sense initially because I don't trust you're not typing confidential words |
| 02:43.04 | tumbly | and it gets words from included files |
| 02:43.36 | tumbly | confidential words? |
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| 02:44.00 | klys | ...that would belong to a subordinate context |
| 02:44.13 | tumbly | just search the buffer when the command is run. |
| 02:45.04 | klys | then all the words you type when you close out a context are part of the main. I guess that makes sense |
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| 02:45.34 | tumbly | and if there is an include directive, read that into another buffer if you can |
| 02:46.05 | klys | the include directive would itself be a context. |
| 02:46.08 | tumbly | I wonder how vim does that |
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| 02:46.24 | tumbly | I mean search the included file |
| 02:46.59 | tumbly | or maybe get the words from an included file when an #include is typed |
| 02:47.13 | klys | either it runs cpp (less likely) or (more likely) it simply loads the file into a temporary buffer form /usr/include |
| 02:47.27 | klys | *from |
| 02:48.15 | klys | a while back I found a PCB soldering rig on google shopping for $35,000 |
| 02:48.52 | tumbly | I do like how emacs handles automatic indentation. |
| 02:49.20 | klys | the mode can change all that. M-x customize |
| 02:51.33 | tumbly | most text editors I've used can't do decent auto indent |
| 02:51.35 | klys | all the words you type /after/ you close out a context |
| 02:52.44 | klys | ~shemacs |
| 03:16.02 | klys | likely I would put the words at [a-z].hash.cx |
| 03:16.38 | klys | since hash.cx is visible you make a newline for that |
| 03:17.43 | klys | then you just wait for extensions to the terminal that override this behavior within deeper context |
| 03:18.41 | klys | each subordinate context would inherit hash from it's parent context |
| 03:19.12 | tumbly | I'm going to find a book to read |
| 03:19.17 | tumbly | ciao |
| 03:19.22 | klys | cha-cha |
| 04:21.47 | romanovic | http://i.imgur.com/oNbq6.gif |
| 04:35.06 | klys | glad you're entertained |
| 04:36.04 | klys | ~quote MU |
| 04:38.17 | Telenull | ~quote fb |
| 04:59.33 | programmerq | ~quote HPQ |
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| 13:37.56 | goozbach | Tene: if you're around again I've got another perl puzzler |
| 13:38.28 | goozbach | when I run the tests in Test::Exception manually (ie perl Makefile.pl; make test; make distest) |
| 13:38.30 | goozbach | they all pass |
| 13:38.38 | goozbach | when I run them under cpan2rpm they fail |
| 13:38.41 | goozbach | cpan2rpm Test::Exception --version 0.31 |
| 13:38.47 | goozbach | no idea what the difference is |
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| 16:05.25 | levi | Man, I missed an emacs discussion yesterday that wasn't a silly flamefest. |
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| 16:08.49 | eightyeight | needs to learn emacs so he can use gnus |
| 16:08.49 | goozbach | anyone here going to SELF? |
| 16:09.29 | levi | gnus is pretty sweet. |
| 16:09.54 | levi | What is SELF? |
| 16:10.48 | eightyeight | i would like to have both my mail and rss in a single client |
| 16:11.01 | levi | You don't really need to learn much of emacs to do gnus. You can put it a vi-keybindings mode for editing if you want. |
| 16:11.36 | jsmith | levi: Southeast Linux Fest |
| 16:11.46 | levi | Huh, I never used it for RSS, just for nntp and smtp. |
| 16:11.53 | goozbach | levi: what jsmith said |
| 16:12.04 | eightyeight | i wish it had direct support for google reader, however |
| 16:12.45 | levi | You could add it! That would really require learning emacs, though. |
| 16:13.25 | eightyeight | i have no reservations against learning emacs. it's more about the time to dedicate to ti |
| 16:13.27 | levi | SELF seems a funny thing to ask about in #utah. :) |
| 16:13.28 | eightyeight | s/ti/it/ |
| 16:13.49 | levi | I figured you didn't, if you were actually considering it. |
| 16:14.51 | levi | Apparently you can use reader2maildir along with gnus to do Google Reader. |
| 16:16.59 | eightyeight | yeah. that's the best solution that i've found up to this point |
| 16:17.16 | eightyeight | and i could just do that with mutt |
| 16:18.35 | goozbach | levi: you would think, but then again how many people in #utah actually reside in the state of UT? |
| 16:18.39 | goozbach | :) |
| 16:18.57 | Tene | goozbach: I usually use cpan2dist, personally. |
| 16:18.59 | goozbach | I know for a fact there are at least two of our number which will be there |
| 16:19.08 | goozbach | Tene: what's the difference? |
| 16:19.24 | goozbach | I'm too far away from my perl days apparently |
| 16:19.27 | Tene | goozbach: I remember having weird issues a few times with cpan2rpm and cpanspec |
| 16:19.45 | Tene | It's long enough ago that it might just be superstition, though. |
| 16:19.58 | levi | Sure, but not all who are outside of Utah are anywhere near NC. |
| 16:20.23 | Tene | I'm glad that I left Utah, and wish I had done so earlier. |
| 16:22.53 | eightyeight | Tene: where did you end up? |
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| 16:24.03 | Tene | eightyeight: California. |
| 16:24.18 | eightyeight | why are you glad you left? what was it about utah you didn't like? |
| 16:25.02 | ekimatuan | I moved from California to Utah 6 years ago. Wich I hade done so sooner :) |
| 16:25.46 | levi | I wouldn't be able to register my van in California. :( |
| 16:26.55 | ekimatuan | Things I miss about California... Family & Friends, the rare (for us) visit to the ocean, higher salaries. Other than that, have loved Utah. |
| 16:27.23 | eightyeight | ekimatuan: i've heard cost-of-living is substantially higher, although i'm sure that depends on where you end up |
| 16:28.45 | ekimatuan | Cost of living was definitely higher, Insurance for example (car, home, etc.) Taxes were much higher. In general food. Although Walmart prices are fairly normalized nationwide it seems so I guess you wouldn't notice much if you primarily shop at Walmart ;) |
| 16:28.55 | ekimatuan | Gas too of course... |
| 16:28.56 | levi | Cost of living is higher pretty much anywhere you could find a reasonable concentration of tech jobs. Although a friend is trying to get me to come work for him in Kansas City, and it might not be too expensive there. |
| 16:29.42 | ekimatuan | I talked to a guy from Kansas City area at a tech conference last October. He had some great things to say about the area and the tech industry in general there. |
| 16:30.13 | Tene | There are a few things I could point to, but they all seem relatively minor, but I feel like my life has improved significantly. It might have just been time for something new. |
| 16:30.15 | mahelious | ive heard rumors about the silicon plains. |
| 16:30.19 | levi | My friend is loving it, apparently. He works for Garmin, managing a software team. |
| 16:30.44 | eightyeight | i really enjoy mountain sports, and can't imagine living somewhere where i can't get easy access to mountains |
| 16:30.58 | eightyeight | skiing, hiking, camping, etc |
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| 16:31.42 | eightyeight | although, i've never really tried my hand at beach/water sports. :) |
| 16:31.56 | levi | There are awesome mountains nearby in California. |
| 16:32.10 | eightyeight | that's true |
| 16:32.25 | levi | In most of California, anyway. |
| 16:32.32 | eightyeight | kansas city, however |
| 16:34.13 | levi | My friend is pretty outdoorsy, and he's found reasonable things to keep him occupied there. |
| 16:35.43 | goozbach | Tene: maybe I should backup |
| 16:36.00 | goozbach | do you know of anyone/where who's packaged RT4 for any recent distro? |
| 16:36.11 | goozbach | rt3 is in epel but not anything newer than that |
| 16:36.36 | Tene | Nope. |
| 16:37.39 | levi | The Ozarks are near KC, too, and they are kind of mountainy. |
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| 16:38.56 | goozbach | hilly |
| 16:39.05 | goozbach | the word you were looking for was hilly |
| 16:39.06 | goozbach | :) |
| 16:39.18 | goozbach | <=rocky mountain snob |
| 16:42.48 | klys | missouri and oklahoma have a comparatively low cost of living. to be expected from the great plains |
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| 17:40.14 | sjansen | Well, I survived a month using exclusively a Mac at work. |
| 17:41.00 | smcquay | sjansen: good for you! what are your thoughts, post facto? |
| 17:42.05 | sjansen | Love the screen, hate the keyboard. |
| 17:42.31 | sjansen | Mac OS X's virtual desktop support is crap. |
| 17:42.50 | sjansen | Although GNOME 3 being worse too makes it a little easier to accept. |
| 17:43.41 | sjansen | I brought my personal laptop running Linux today because XChat Azure's bugs finally pushed me over the edge. |
| 17:44.37 | smcquay | sjansen: I agree on the screen and keyboard. I'll only use my laptop when I'm on a bus or otherwise away from my workstation. |
| 17:44.38 | sjansen | There are some nice things about iTerm2. At the moment, I still prefer gnome-terminal, but once I invest some more time in learning iTerm2 I'll probably love them equally. |
| 17:45.08 | sjansen | Alfred is awesome. |
| 17:45.10 | smcquay | I still use Terminal.app; does iterm2 do things past what tmux gets me? |
| 17:45.36 | sjansen | I like OmniFocus, and I might learn to love it once I've tamed my backlog. |
| 17:46.19 | Tumbly | I have a macbook pro running linux mint, OS X, and win7 |
| 17:46.41 | Tumbly | I'm usually in linux though. (like right now) |
| 17:47.09 | Tumbly | The thing that bugs me the most about it is the way they designed the casing. |
| 17:47.40 | Tumbly | The only place air flows in and out is through the crack between the laptop and the monitor. |
| 17:47.40 | sjansen | Mac OS X's power management is so awesome, that alone is a reason to spend most of my time there. |
| 17:48.12 | smcquay | sjansen: agreed. until I find a laptop that can run for 8 hours without charge under linux, i'll use os x primarily on that machine. |
| 17:48.40 | Tumbly | My battery can barely last an hour, so I don't care too much about power management |
| 17:48.50 | eightyeight | i would be interested to learn how apple does it with standby |
| 17:49.21 | eightyeight | my wife's old g4 ibook can stay in standby for a full week before losing the charge |
| 17:49.31 | eightyeight | my laptop can barely make it 48 hours |
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| 17:51.05 | sproc | ls |
| 17:51.33 | eightyeight | file1 |
| 17:52.29 | sproc | I didn't even realize I did that until you said that. I think when I alt-tab to a console window I automatically type 'ls' and then continue doing other things. I'm like on dysfunctional auto-pilot. |
| 17:52.42 | Tumbly | me too |
| 17:52.43 | Tumbly | lol |
| 17:53.16 | Tumbly | I was about to type psychonauts-linux-installer |
| 17:53.19 | Tumbly | ;P |
| 17:53.40 | Jayce^ | humble++ |
| 17:54.14 | Tumbly | bah archive manager started nautilus! I can't get to my other windows in wmii! ;P |
| 17:54.29 | Tumbly | the desktop is in the way |
| 17:55.27 | Tumbly | had to go to tty1 and kill it |
| 17:56.57 | Tumbly | humble += 1e100 |
| 18:04.50 | klys | ~slashdot |
| 18:06.36 | Tumbly | It doesn't matter what IE's settings default to, it will still be the worst browser in the universe. |
| 18:07.10 | klys | until "do not track" ceases to be a qualifier |
| 18:20.47 | eightyeight | i actually really like IE 9 |
| 18:21.08 | eightyeight | it's standards compliant, and because of hardware acceleration, fast as hell |
| 18:21.18 | eightyeight | something no other browser has been able to compare to |
| 18:21.50 | klys | which CPU supports this hardware acceleration, or is it part of DirectX ?\ |
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| 18:22.57 | dkelson | Yo |
| 18:23.07 | klys | :] |
| 18:23.42 | eightyeight | CPU? it's all GPU driven |
| 18:24.24 | eightyeight | the other browsers have it, they just don't perform nearly as well |
| 18:25.00 | Tumbly | problem is you need wine or windows |
| 18:25.45 | klys | I've noticed Chrome outperforming Iceweasel/xulrunner without GPU support in X |
| 18:27.53 | klys | I've heard some commentary about Chrome outperforming MSIE, though MS contested it saying they just weren't caught up like usual |
| 18:28.18 | Tumbly | Speed isn't the only reason I prefer chrome |
| 18:28.43 | Tumbly | It's a whole lot cleaner |
| 18:29.13 | klys | I think the biggest browser problem is the Flash plugin; requires better than a Pentium II now. |
| 18:29.28 | Tumbly | really? |
| 18:29.44 | Tumbly | the one you get in apt? |
| 18:29.57 | klys | so I'm thinking, where does Flash belong? on a server running VNC ? |
| 18:29.58 | Tumbly | or google chrome's built in? |
| 18:30.19 | klys | you have to download it from adobe |
| 18:30.40 | Tumbly | have you tried apt-get install flashplugin-nonfree |
| 18:30.51 | Tumbly | (I might have misspelled that) |
| 18:31.04 | klys | yes it installs an older version which doesn't work with some sites |
| 18:31.20 | Tumbly | that's too bad |
| 18:31.54 | klys | so, if you had a computer that could run the plugin, the question is would you use it for a server |
| 18:32.15 | Tumbly | for a server? why? |
| 18:32.26 | klys | ever tried VNC ? |
| 18:32.45 | Tumbly | not really |
| 18:32.55 | Tumbly | I usually just ssh |
| 18:33.22 | Tumbly | ssh username@address -X starts an X server |
| 18:34.18 | klys | some of the features you'd have to build in would be copy/pasting, open link in new tab, save file |
| 18:36.13 | smcquay | rejoyces at flash's slow but progressing death |
| 18:36.21 | klys | ...save file to /var/www |
| 18:36.54 | klys | you have to have flash to play videos at youtube. |
| 18:37.32 | Tumbly | really? I thought they went to html5 a while back |
| 18:37.54 | klys | it keeps saying I need flash so, yes |
| 18:38.03 | smcquay | klys: Tumbly: you need flash for *some* of youtube. |
| 18:38.17 | klys | html5 does not fully support audio/video yet. |
| 18:38.20 | smcquay | basically all those that have adverts in the video |
| 18:38.43 | smcquay | klys: how do you mean? |
| 18:38.53 | smcquay | I have full audio/video support in my browsers |
| 18:39.06 | klys | look at w3c.org; it says the curent progress of html5 |
| 18:39.30 | smcquay | all my browsers fully support the audio/video tags |
| 18:40.35 | klys | those tags could be incomplete or underdeveloped because that's what w3c is saying about standards progress |
| 18:41.34 | eightyeight | i don't have flash installed on my laptop, and i have little problems with the audio and video tags |
| 18:41.39 | eightyeight | works most of the time just fine |
| 18:42.14 | fungus | http://www.youtube.com/html5 |
| 18:43.56 | eightyeight | yup |
| 18:46.17 | klys | there's rarely anyone from utah though, but this site uses flash: http://www.utahchatcity.com |
| 18:46.45 | *** join/#utah kendsnyder (~kendsnyde@xwi2.xmission.com) |
| 18:47.01 | Tumbly | grooveshark is the only site I use regularly that uses flash |
| 18:50.30 | klys | some music makes me want LP's |
| 18:50.50 | Tumbly | agreed |
| 18:51.02 | Tumbly | LP's are nice to have |
| 18:53.26 | sproc | Isn't everything on W3C technically just a "draft"? |
| 18:53.37 | Tumbly | yeah |
| 18:53.43 | Tumbly | It's the standard |
| 18:53.46 | sproc | They like understating things. |
| 18:53.52 | Tumbly | browsers are implementations of a standard |
| 18:54.24 | Tumbly | w3c is to chrome as ANCI C is to gcc |
| 18:55.39 | klys | ~karma gcc |
| 18:55.39 | ibot | gcc has neutral karma |
| 18:57.06 | programmerq | got to visit a sikh temple today |
| 18:57.44 | klys | are you in delhi or hyderabad? mumbai? |
| 18:58.05 | klys | s/delhi/dehli/ |
| 18:58.47 | sproc | Redwood Road? |
| 19:01.28 | sjansen | Tumbly: Clearly you don't remember NS4. It was undeniably the worst browser ever. |
| 19:01.44 | Tumbly | I meant worst current brower |
| 19:01.57 | Tumbly | And I do include lynx |
| 19:01.58 | Tumbly | ;P |
| 19:02.00 | smcquay | you don't keep a copy of ns4 alive for testing? |
| 19:02.09 | Tumbly | nope |
| 19:02.28 | smcquay | says such in jest, of course |
| 19:02.35 | sjansen | And I'd wager you don't remember IE6 Mac. When it came out it was hands down the best browser ever, and it played an important role in kickstarting the standards push. |
| 19:02.40 | klys | it's probably on a compputer that was setup to run windows 3.1 |
| 19:03.29 | Tumbly | I suppose I could get it running in dosbox if I really wanted to, but clearly I don't. |
| 19:05.47 | Tumbly | I've seen people get windows 3.1 running in dosbox |
| 19:05.56 | programmerq | is in gurgaon, which is near delhi |
| 19:06.02 | klys | the best browser will always be the one that runs the best websites, on competetive hardware |
| 19:06.40 | klys | wow what way is it from Dehli may I ask? |
| 19:07.03 | Tumbly | most people nowdays agree with me that chrome is the best. |
| 19:07.25 | Tumbly | It makes all the others feel bloated. |
| 19:07.26 | sjansen | klys: Your criteria is inadequate. You can't establish a pinnacle by defining a baseline. |
| 19:08.08 | programmerq | klys: south |
| 19:08.17 | programmerq | I was going to try to make it to the taj mahal |
| 19:08.25 | programmerq | but it's just too expensive to take a hotel car |
| 19:08.33 | sjansen | Hardly. I define Firefox as best because it has competitive support for standards and the plugins I need to make it work the way I want. Chrome comes in second for its poorer plugin ecosystem. |
| 19:08.37 | programmerq | and I didn't plan ahead well enough to be able to take the trains |
| 19:08.38 | Tumbly | Everyone will always have the browser that they prefer. I still know quite a few people that prefer firefox, and I've met one person who thinks that safari runs the fastest |
| 19:09.03 | programmerq | is sure he'll probably make the switch to chrome at some point |
| 19:09.12 | programmerq | but I just hate disrupting my workflow |
| 19:09.20 | programmerq | I still haven't switched to tmux from screen |
| 19:09.23 | Tumbly | The only plugin/extension I run is adblock |
| 19:09.31 | sjansen | Few people are equipped to accurately judge browser speed. Most pick a favorite then decide it's faster to justify the existing decision. |
| 19:09.31 | programmerq | and I still haven't switched from irssi to weechat |
| 19:09.38 | Tumbly | or quakelive |
| 19:09.47 | programmerq | when I switched to firefox, it truly was faster |
| 19:09.48 | klys | If it were not for the pinnacle continually following this baseline some of us would still be using arachne or, an embedded version of flash |
| 19:10.06 | programmerq | it, of course, has changed... a lot... since then... |
| 19:10.31 | Tumbly | Firefox was definitely the best, until chrome got better |
| 19:10.32 | sjansen | Yes, when Firefox (then known as Phoenix) first appeared it was revolutionary. |
| 19:10.38 | Tumbly | imho |
| 19:11.10 | sproc | programmerq: What are the principal advantages of weechat over irssi? |
| 19:11.30 | Tumbly | Frankly as long as I'm not using IE, I can stand it, but google chrome runs fast, feels clean, and has a nice flash player, and pdf reader build in. |
| 19:11.40 | Tumbly | s/build/built |
| 19:12.05 | programmerq | sproc: I don't remember, tbh. I remember researching it and going "oh, I should switch because of X" |
| 19:12.18 | programmerq | maybe it was the python plugin arcitecture (vs perl)? |
| 19:12.30 | programmerq | and I like python better than perl |
| 19:12.42 | sjansen | Today I think it's fair to say the Firefox and Chrome are tied with room for individual preference. Safari made Chrome possible, but it's now mostly riding coattails. IE9 is a shockingly decent browser, but still has plenty of room for improvement. Opera is still an interesting curiosity. |
| 19:12.44 | sproc | I'm reading about it now; it is supposedly lighter and faster and the interface looks more attractive. |
| 19:13.19 | programmerq | interesting curiosity is probably the best way to put opera |
| 19:13.25 | sproc | sjansen: Tied in what respect? Chrome is now the most popular browser: http://www.businessinsider.com/google-overtakes-internet-explorer-as-most-popular-browser-2012-5 |
| 19:13.43 | sjansen | Quality. |
| 19:14.10 | sjansen | Popularity is a poor metric for judging quality. Sometimes quality leads to popularity, but marketing is usually a better explanation. |
| 19:14.44 | jsmith | Another way to judge is whether or not they're just being cobbled together from a software engineering perspective |
| 19:15.06 | jsmith | I'm not going to name names, but some browsers are a disaster waiting to happen from the way the code is put together |
| 19:15.38 | jsmith | (If you include three different bundled versions of the same system library in your browser, that's a "fail" in my book) |
| 19:16.10 | sjansen | I've spent long enough hearing people claim something is "lighter" or "faster" only to have every change their mind five years later and decide its "bloated" and "slow" that I've learned to ignore popular opinion. |
| 19:16.17 | klys | sometimes I wish I could downgrade to phoenix/seamonkey |
| 19:16.41 | youtah | Sooooo, what's up |
| 19:16.42 | jsmith | sjansen: And not just on browsers.... |
| 19:16.55 | youtah | yum -y install * |
| 19:17.01 | jsmith | youtah: My blood pressure? Your IQ? |
| 19:17.12 | youtah | other way around |
| 19:17.19 | sjansen | Show me the numbers or I don't care. The numbers show that Firefox and Chrome are usually trading first place depending on which was mostly recently released. |
| 19:17.23 | sproc | sjansen: I was reading that Firefox still has a far more powerful plugin architecture, though. |
| 19:17.29 | youtah | definitely not my patience |
| 19:17.49 | sjansen | Compared to how slow browsers used to be, all browsers are now fast enough that it doesn't matter much anymore. |
| 19:17.55 | sproc | sjansen: So that even over time, the pllugin "ecosystem" cannot improve without a drastic architectural change which basically won't happen. |
| 19:18.09 | sjansen | Unless you're considering edge cases like WebGL which can hardly be considered mainstream yet. |
| 19:18.16 | Tumbly | sjansen: So you say how you disagree with popular opinion, and then tell us what's trending? |
| 19:18.22 | programmerq | voip calling is nice. I just called my mechanic from India and paid the same as I would have paid to call from the US over the same voip service. :) |
| 19:18.40 | programmerq | probably needs to go to bed |
| 19:18.47 | programmerq | 12:48am here |
| 19:18.55 | Tumbly | nice |
| 19:19.11 | Tumbly | programmerq: what did you use? google voice? |
| 19:19.28 | youtah | am I the only wondering if programmerq's system time is off? |
| 19:19.37 | Tumbly | no |
| 19:19.40 | programmerq | youtah: it is not off |
| 19:19.46 | Tumbly | it's 1:19pm here |
| 19:19.48 | youtah | isn't it HH:19 right now |
| 19:19.49 | sjansen | jsmith: Definitely not just in browsers. I think it's hilarious how opinion has shifted about PHP. Once king of "speed" it's now shunned as "slow and bloated" even though PHP itself hasn't changed much. |
| 19:19.51 | programmerq | india standard time is UTC+0500 |
| 19:19.52 | programmerq | err |
| 19:19.55 | programmerq | india standard time is UTC+0530 |
| 19:20.01 | youtah | what? |
| 19:20.05 | youtah | really? |
| 19:20.05 | programmerq | they're offset by half an hour |
| 19:20.06 | programmerq | yeah |
| 19:20.13 | Tumbly | odd |
| 19:20.14 | youtah | I had no idea. Weirdos |
| 19:20.20 | Tumbly | that explains it. |
| 19:20.35 | programmerq | the us is weirdos for having multiple timezones, and switching twice a year |
| 19:20.43 | youtah | +1 |
| 19:20.45 | programmerq | shrugs |
| 19:21.09 | Tumbly | us isn't weird for having multiple time zones, It's just big. |
| 19:21.34 | programmerq | india is big also |
| 19:21.38 | programmerq | one time zone |
| 19:21.48 | sjansen | Tumbly: You don't see the difference between popular opinion and real world usage? I'm not arguing WebGL is unpopular, I'm pointing out that almost no one is using it yet. |
| 19:21.50 | youtah | I wonder how many other places do that |
| 19:21.51 | programmerq | china, some story |
| 19:21.57 | programmerq | same* |
| 19:22.00 | programmerq | not sure about russia though |
| 19:22.06 | sjansen | Popular is a consumer metric. Usage is a producer metric. |
| 19:22.09 | youtah | they're 30 minutes off? |
| 19:22.11 | programmerq | I think australia is one time zone too? |
| 19:22.19 | programmerq | dunno about 30 minutes off |
| 19:22.30 | programmerq | but many countries choose only one timezone for the whole country |
| 19:22.43 | programmerq | and there are other 30 minute offset timezones |
| 19:22.46 | programmerq | but I don't know what they all are |
| 19:23.14 | Tumbly | sjansen: quality and popularity aren't nessicarily the same. Look how popular IE is. |
| 19:23.26 | youtah | I am thinking I might take off early today |
| 19:23.31 | youtah | I'm exhausted |
| 19:23.48 | programmerq | I'm not sure you can call what IE has popularity. I think it's just sheep that use it. |
| 19:24.29 | sjansen | Tumbly: That's part of my point. |
| 19:24.35 | sproc | And that, well, it comes with nearly every computer sold. |
| 19:24.52 | Tumbly | It's mostly the fact that people who set up computers for public places aren't smart enough to put chrome on them |
| 19:25.10 | sjansen | That's a strange claim. |
| 19:25.41 | sjansen | programmerq: You theory is convenient, self aggrandizing, and demonstrably wrong. |
| 19:25.52 | youtah | Zing! |
| 19:26.00 | programmerq | sjansen: I'm okay with that |
| 19:26.01 | youtah | sjansen lays the smack down |
| 19:26.15 | sjansen | I know reasonable people who have weighed advantages and disadvantages and decided they prefer IE. |
| 19:26.16 | youtah | will stop the side commentary |
| 19:26.17 | Tumbly | In my high school I ended up booting tinycore from a pen drive, and installing chrome, and getting it open faster than everyone else could start IE |
| 19:26.34 | programmerq | sjansen: I'd say that they are the exception and not the rule. |
| 19:27.08 | sjansen | The exceptions that disprove your rule. |
| 19:27.21 | programmerq | k, |
| 19:27.31 | Tumbly | All I'm saying is that from my personal experience, I have ended up disliking IE, and preferring chrome |
| 19:27.40 | sjansen | Where do you draw the line between people whose needs are met so they don't bother changing and people are sheep? |
| 19:27.40 | programmerq | I'm not sure you can call what IE has popularity. I think it just has a lot of sheep that use it. |
| 19:27.47 | programmerq | does that work better? |
| 19:27.50 | youtah | ~chrome++ |
| 19:27.56 | youtah | ~karma chrome |
| 19:27.56 | ibot | chrome has karma of 2 |
| 19:28.04 | sproc | ~ie |
| 19:28.05 | ibot | extra, extra, read all about it, ie is the domain suffix for Ireland, or Internet Explorer, or the browser of the Devil, or the worst browser in the entire universe and it should be eliminated by any means possible, or the spawn of evil, nay all evil spawns from ie |
| 19:28.05 | youtah | ~ie-- |
| 19:28.08 | Tumbly | IE just has the default of the most popular OS. |
| 19:28.09 | levi | Recent versions of IE aren't all that bad. |
| 19:28.10 | sproc | ~karma ie |
| 19:28.10 | ibot | ie has karma of -667 |
| 19:28.14 | youtah | LOL |
| 19:28.21 | sproc | See, Chrome is demonstrably better. |
| 19:28.23 | sjansen | Calling people sheep is a stupid, lazy habit. It makes you blind and shows others you've not bothered to actually think about a controversial topic. |
| 19:28.37 | youtah | ~karma firefox |
| 19:28.37 | ibot | firefox has karma of 7 |
| 19:28.42 | youtah | Yikes |
| 19:28.44 | programmerq | sjansen: I very rarely call people sheep |
| 19:28.46 | youtah | that needs to be fixes |
| 19:28.47 | sproc | ~karma lynx |
| 19:28.47 | ibot | lynx has neutral karma |
| 19:28.52 | sproc | ~lynx++ |
| 19:28.59 | programmerq | but yes, it is overused |
| 19:29.05 | youtah | ~firefox-- |
| 19:29.16 | youtah | prefers chrome by far |
| 19:29.32 | youtah | ~karma chromium |
| 19:29.32 | ibot | chromium has neutral karma |
| 19:29.42 | Tumbly | what programmerq means is that the majority of people who use IE either have no choice, or aren't tech savvy enough to choose another browser |
| 19:29.55 | Tumbly | lynx += 1e100 |
| 19:30.09 | programmerq | Tumbly: not links? |
| 19:30.13 | sjansen | If you cant put yourself in someone else's shoes and understand their decisions without resorting to insults, you're not qualified to judge the situation. |
| 19:30.16 | Tumbly | ? |
| 19:30.17 | youtah | I know some people, at a large bank, that I cannot say where.... are forced to still use IE5 |
| 19:30.24 | *** join/#utah mabes (~mabes@24-104-67-234-ip-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 19:30.24 | youtah | mumbles Wells Fargo |
| 19:31.03 | youtah | ~wellsfargo-- |
| 19:31.11 | sproc | ~afcu++ |
| 19:31.12 | Tumbly | Compare the length of what I typed to programmerq's statement, and you will understand his use of 'sheep' |
| 19:31.15 | programmerq | sjansen: that's just my point-- I think that many IE users haven't actually made a decision. They just use what's in front of them. That's the appropriate use of the negative connetation of the label "sheep", no? |
| 19:31.26 | sjansen | programmerq: Sorry to pick on you specifically, but sick to death of Linux fanboyism and all it's convenient, self serving, stupid, unconsidered biases. All they do is hold us back. |
| 19:31.30 | programmerq | yes, sheep was shorter to type |
| 19:31.47 | programmerq | sjansen: I don't think that's what I'm doing at all |
| 19:31.52 | sproc | ~longwindedness++ |
| 19:31.54 | youtah | me grandmother knows to use the Blue E, which is what My dad taught her |
| 19:31.57 | sproc | ~verbosity++ |
| 19:31.59 | youtah | I should change that |
| 19:32.07 | youtah | s/me/my |
| 19:32.08 | sjansen | You are. The moment you resort to an insult like "sheep" you're a fanboy. |
| 19:32.22 | youtah | / |
| 19:32.25 | programmerq | sjansen: I was only saving typing |
| 19:32.32 | sjansen | By using an insult. |
| 19:32.34 | programmerq | I forgot sjansen was around though |
| 19:32.38 | programmerq | sorry |
| 19:32.41 | programmerq | sorry sjansen |
| 19:32.43 | Tumbly | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:32.48 | levi | Amen to sjansen's condemnation of fanboyism. |
| 19:32.56 | youtah | will be quiet now... cutting down on txt volume |
| 19:33.02 | jsmith | joins the sjansen fanboi club |
| 19:33.25 | youtah | designates jsmith as president of fanboi club |
| 19:33.26 | klys | I would think a browser belongs on a proprietary dektop system, unless you're ruuning it with vnc |
| 19:33.50 | programmerq | but I'm still a little surprised that my one insult in this channel ...ever... is being met with such |
| 19:33.53 | programmerq | vigor? |
| 19:34.00 | programmerq | is that the right word I'm looking for? |
| 19:34.04 | levi | It's all in the timing. |
| 19:34.20 | Tumbly | like I explained earlier, strlen('sheep') is a lot shorter than strlen('people who aren't tech savvy or are otherwise stuck with IE') |
| 19:34.31 | youtah | lol Tumbly |
| 19:34.33 | programmerq | yes, Tumbly has it exactly right |
| 19:34.46 | sjansen | programmerq: It's okay, it's human nature to defend yourself when you make a mistake. But once you've had time to reflect I hope you understand why insulting someone is never okay. |
| 19:35.11 | programmerq | sjansen: I'm actually feeling a little insulted that you accused me of fanboyism |
| 19:35.11 | youtah | like those guys in India... they're weirdos |
| 19:35.19 | sjansen | Take it from me, I repentant flame warrior trying to unlearn negative habits I was rewarded for by a broken culture. |
| 19:35.22 | youtah | ducks |
| 19:35.39 | sjansen | programmerq: Good. Learn from the experience. |
| 19:35.46 | youtah | was referring to the 30 minutes off in their time |
| 19:35.57 | Tumbly | I think that the worst part is that the loud fanboys are met with equally loud judgement. |
| 19:36.03 | programmerq | sjansen: I think you aren't as repentant as you think you are |
| 19:36.17 | klys | because on a proprietary desktop system you can get icons with alt+tab and press ctrl+esc to get to the window manager |
| 19:36.24 | levi | Have you seen a sjansen flamefest before? |
| 19:36.33 | Tumbly | which leaves a lot less room for the rest of us who want to have a more intelligent conversation with less typing. |
| 19:36.45 | sjansen | It's not lost on me that the most accurate way to describe the Linux worlds self-defeating culture of self-aggrandization is itself an insult. |
| 19:36.46 | sproc | The "correction" could be viewed as convenient and self-aggrandizing as well, and a distraction from the real debate (browsers). Just saying. :) |
| 19:37.14 | sjansen | programmerq: Believe you me, I'm no angel but I have changed. |
| 19:37.27 | programmerq | sjansen: I'm still not sure how my comment on how many IE users don't actually know what they are doing constitutes "fanboyism" of linux |
| 19:37.38 | klys | it's just that nothing proprietary desktop is compatible with Xen on less than a Xeon so I don't |
| 19:38.17 | programmerq | and my comment still stands that what IE has shouldn't be considered popularity |
| 19:38.25 | programmerq | which was the point of the statement |
| 19:38.42 | sjansen | A point that was overshadowed and lost because you chose to bundle it with an insult. |
| 19:39.00 | Tumbly | sjansen: realize this: there are 2 parts to an insult, the insult itself, and the insulted. You can get rid of half of any insult by not being insulted. |
| 19:39.14 | sjansen | When you start insulting people, your message gets lost. Ponder on your own hangup with me calling you a fanboy. That's what I'm talking about. |
| 19:39.18 | programmerq | sjansen: I think that Tumbly understood my point just fine |
| 19:39.23 | klys | our esteemed radio commentator Bill Allred would appear to have switched to Chrome a few weeks back |
| 19:39.26 | jsmith | Tumbly: Even if you don't take offense, it still doesn't make the insult OK |
| 19:39.43 | programmerq | wonders if sjansen hasn't actually made an informed decision about his browser and is still using IE |
| 19:39.51 | levi | klys: When Jimmy Chunga switches to Chrome, that will be something. ;P |
| 19:39.51 | Tumbly | only the insulted managed to lose the meaning. |
| 19:39.55 | programmerq | audience is key |
| 19:39.57 | klys | hehe |
| 19:39.59 | sjansen | No, Tumbly is just walking the tired old path of people who think their ability to ignore an insult makes them superior. It's yet another form of arrogance. |
| 19:40.02 | sproc | I don't think 'sheep' is an insult, it is shorthand for victims of groupthink phenomena. |
| 19:40.23 | programmerq | yes, I've never considered all forms of calling people "sheep" an insult |
| 19:40.27 | programmerq | it *can* be an insult |
| 19:40.31 | Tumbly | s/sheep/foobar |
| 19:40.33 | Tumbly | that better? |
| 19:40.34 | programmerq | but that doesn't mean that it *always* is |
| 19:41.14 | Tumbly | He was just trying to type less, and figured the audience of an irc channel would be wise enough to expand the meaning. |
| 19:41.17 | levi | What's frustrating is the underlying insinuation that anyone who chooses to use IE must be suffering from some groupthink phenomenon. |
| 19:41.29 | sjansen | I'm done. The point has been made. At this point we're just stuck in normal human nature to defend a mistake at all cost. |
| 19:42.02 | sjansen | Tumbly: You don't need to defend programmerq. He's adult enough to defend yourself. |
| 19:42.04 | programmerq | sjansen: I could say the same about you. You got excited over something that wasn't actually in insult. Oh well, maybe you'll think twice next time. |
| 19:42.09 | Tumbly | I agree that we ought not insult each other, but I hope we can also learn not to be insulted. |
| 19:42.10 | sjansen | s/yourself/himself/ |
| 19:42.21 | programmerq | sjansen: thank you for defending my adultness. :) |
| 19:42.27 | levi | And that things made by Microsoft are inherently inferior, and that no rational techie would choose to use them over Linux for anything. |
| 19:42.31 | sjansen | programmerq: It was insult. You may not have intended it, but it was an insult. |
| 19:42.31 | programmerq | sighs |
| 19:42.41 | sproc | "has a lot of sheep that use it". It was never said that /everyone/ who uses it is a sheep. |
| 19:42.52 | sjansen | Now your know it is always an insult in technical circles. |
| 19:42.57 | sproc | Therefore it was /not/ an insult. |
| 19:43.19 | levi | There are a lot of "sheep" that use Linux and Chrome, too. |
| 19:43.32 | klys | raises hand |
| 19:43.43 | Tumbly | who knows, maybe he meant a compliment for IE. So intuitive a sheep can use it! |
| 19:44.02 | Tumbly | ;P |
| 19:44.07 | sjansen | My point is that there is no such thing as sheep. |
| 19:44.13 | Tumbly | really? |
| 19:44.14 | sproc | I've seen one. |
| 19:44.14 | klys | lowers hand |
| 19:44.17 | Tumbly | me too |
| 19:44.30 | programmerq | sjansen: oh? |
| 19:44.32 | sjansen | Sheep are people you've chosen to disrespect because you don't understand their priorities. |
| 19:44.33 | sproc | looks over the room for hands, sees none, continues. |
| 19:44.34 | Tumbly | there are quite a few around ephraim area this time of year. |
| 19:44.42 | levi | I have wool clothing that would disagree with an overly literal interpretation of your statement! :P |
| 19:44.47 | sjansen | Users are people who have decided that what they have is adequate. |
| 19:45.05 | eightyeight | i work with someone who perefers IE 9 |
| 19:45.12 | klys | trends are, you will not innovate by adjusting your Free software, and you willl always ask your new friend's name before saying it again |
| 19:45.13 | Tumbly | *BAAAH!* |
| 19:45.15 | Tumbly | excuse me |
| 19:45.16 | sproc | sjansen: Sometimes no such decision has been made. People often act without thinking, and the related behavior often is destructive. |
| 19:45.37 | eightyeight | this is coming from someone who always weighs pros/cons in his head |
| 19:45.38 | sproc | sjansen: Frowning on that is nothing to shy away from. |
| 19:45.45 | sjansen | I've avoided making enough decisions to know that not making a decision is itself a decision. |
| 19:45.49 | eightyeight | some call this type of person a "mapper" rather than a "packer" |
| 19:46.01 | Tumbly | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheep |
| 19:46.06 | eightyeight | ~karma iceweasel |
| 19:46.06 | ibot | iceweasel has neutral karma |
| 19:46.11 | eightyeight | ~iceweasel++ |
| 19:46.19 | sproc | Not realy. When a person isn't aware of the harmful effects of a behavior, they may have chosen the surface behavior but not chosen the destruction. |
| 19:46.22 | sproc | *really |
| 19:46.25 | sjansen | Again, their is no such thing as sheep. There are users you lack the empathy to understand, but your lack of empathy doesn't make them sheep. |
| 19:46.57 | sproc | It really depends on the definition of sheep, and so I would disagree respectfully. |
| 19:46.58 | programmerq | I don't think empathy has anything to do with it. |
| 19:47.02 | levi | IE 9 is a nice browser. It's got some quirks from its legacy, but then so do other mature browsers. |
| 19:47.20 | programmerq | yes, I think that sjansen's definition of sheep is something far more sinister than I have ever seen in use. |
| 19:47.22 | Tumbly | sjansen: Did you not look at the wikipedia page? |
| 19:47.46 | eightyeight | calling people names, because they don't think like you do, shows a lack of maturity and empathy |
| 19:48.06 | eightyeight | that's his point |
| 19:48.19 | Tumbly | baaa. |
| 19:48.20 | sproc | sjansen: It seems you would frown on any kind of promotion of awareness for things like environmental issues, human and civil rights, etc., simply to avoid insulting anyone by suggesting the audience might have something to learn. |
| 19:48.47 | levi | In a biblical sense, being a sheep is a good thing. :P |
| 19:48.50 | Tumbly | insults are part of human communication. |
| 19:48.51 | sjansen | sproc: Congratulations on your mastery of the straw man argument. |
| 19:48.56 | programmerq | eightyeight: so would the phrane "stupid people do exist" be calling names? |
| 19:48.59 | Tumbly | and they end up being quite a lot shorter. |
| 19:49.10 | Tumbly | which is an advantage when you are typingg |
| 19:49.22 | programmerq | s/phrane/phrase/ |
| 19:49.27 | sjansen | Tumbly: Insults are rarely a part of effective communication unless your goal is to incite anger. |
| 19:49.28 | eightyeight | no |
| 19:49.31 | eightyeight | programmerq: it would not |
| 19:49.41 | programmerq | k, that was on par with my comment earlier |
| 19:49.52 | eightyeight | calling IE users sheep? |
| 19:50.01 | programmerq | saying that sheep use IE |
| 19:50.06 | eightyeight | that's not an insult? |
| 19:50.08 | sjansen | Tumbly: I'm tired. I used to argue your position. I now realize I was wrong. Hopefully you will too eventually. |
| 19:50.17 | klys | insults are rarely a pary of commmmunication, unless your goal goes contrary to continued communication. |
| 19:50.24 | programmerq | sjansen: I think that you are just as wrong as you think I am. |
| 19:50.27 | Tumbly | rarely yes, but in some situations they can be advantageous as long as the audience knows to disregard the insult itself, and infer it's true meaning. |
| 19:50.47 | sproc | eightyeight: He didn't call sjansen a name, he said that some of the "popularity" recorded in automatic metrics for IE usage don't represent a conscious choice by all of those users to use IE over the competing browsers. |
| 19:50.57 | programmerq | and this whole discussion wouldn't have been so "flamey" if you hadn't said anything |
| 19:51.08 | eightyeight | i'm aware of the conversation. just read it in its entirety |
| 19:51.24 | Tumbly | eightyeight: That's quite a feat. |
| 19:51.39 | eightyeight | not really. took all of 2-3 minutes |
| 19:51.40 | sproc | He said some of its popularity were attributable to sheep, not that /everyone/ who used it falls into that category. |
| 19:51.48 | levi | eightyeight is an experienced IRCer. ;) |
| 19:51.51 | programmerq | you could have PM'd me and said "hey it's not cool to call people sheep" |
| 19:52.11 | programmerq | and I would have said "oh, okay. I didn't mean it as anything mean. Figured you'd figure out what I meant" |
| 19:52.18 | programmerq | and we could have left it at that |
| 19:52.24 | Tumbly | I can't shift-pgup enough to read the whole thing. You must be using X |
| 19:52.27 | programmerq | but leave it to sjansen to start a fight... |
| 19:52.42 | eightyeight | Tumbly: no. weechat. |
| 19:53.04 | Tumbly | irssi++ |
| 19:53.10 | programmerq | seems to recall similar sjansen-fueled "discussions" on PLUG mailing list shortly before unsubscribing |
| 19:53.12 | eightyeight | my scrollback goes to may 24 |
| 19:53.13 | programmerq | shrugs |
| 19:53.59 | klys | was in the PLUG list until sometime in 2008 |
| 19:54.04 | eightyeight | Tumbly: i used to be a big irssi user. however, after switching to a proper irc bouncer, i decided to give weechat a go, and found that it contains a lot of my irssi scripts already builtin |
| 19:54.12 | Tumbly | Just so you all know, I would have left this conversation a while back, but due to boredom induced by Psychonauts crashing, I continued. |
| 19:54.27 | programmerq | just isn't ready to go to bed quite yet |
| 19:54.59 | eightyeight | things like multi-language scripting support, a trackbar, nicklist, advanced buffer control, better window splitting, ... |
| 19:55.12 | programmerq | yeah |
| 19:55.18 | Tumbly | eightyeight: I don't have a lot of experience with irc anyway. I just prefer running it without X on this box. |
| 19:55.20 | programmerq | still hasn't activated a nicklist in irssi |
| 19:55.29 | eightyeight | i don't care much for the default color scheme though, and i would prefer to not have my nicks right-aligned |
| 19:55.58 | eightyeight | programmerq: the great thing with weechat is the modularity. i can hide any 'bar' in the client, including the nicklist |
| 19:56.06 | eightyeight | title bar, status bar, buffers bar, ... |
| 19:56.16 | eightyeight | fairly extensible |
| 19:56.47 | programmerq | that'd be nice |
| 19:57.05 | programmerq | I still don't relaly use irssi to its full potential anyway |
| 19:57.12 | programmerq | so switching wouldn't be painful really |
| 19:57.20 | eightyeight | btw, "cruella de ville" by vocal spectrum is awesome |
| 19:57.25 | programmerq | wouldn't have to re-learn much |
| 19:57.26 | klys | I need a windowmanager somewhat akin to blackbox that uses the keyboard for app navigation |
| 19:57.36 | Tumbly | I'm not used to any, so switching won't be painful for me. |
| 19:57.41 | eightyeight | klys: you should try tiling window managers |
| 19:57.45 | Tumbly | will weechat run outside of X? |
| 19:57.46 | eightyeight | dwm or awesome |
| 19:57.48 | programmerq | klys: would fluxbox work for you? |
| 19:57.54 | klys | could be |
| 19:57.57 | eightyeight | Tumbly: weechat is a full curses-based application |
| 19:58.00 | programmerq | you can set any keybindings you want |
| 19:58.06 | klys | as long as I can do ctr+esc |
| 19:58.09 | Tumbly | klys: I am really liking wmii |
| 19:58.16 | klys | ctrl+esc and alt+tab |
| 19:58.31 | Tumbly | col |
| 19:58.34 | Tumbly | *cool |
| 19:58.44 | klys | can fluxbox do that? |
| 19:59.06 | programmerq | doesn't know about ctrl+esc for fluxbox |
| 19:59.08 | Tumbly | I don't know |
| 19:59.11 | klys | or can tiling? |
| 19:59.21 | programmerq | I thought it could do everything until I found it can't do alt+` |
| 19:59.26 | Tumbly | wmii is tiling. |
| 19:59.35 | klys | okok |
| 19:59.37 | programmerq | fluxbox isn't tiling, no |
| 19:59.46 | Tumbly | it defaults to super+hjkl for moving between windows |
| 19:59.52 | eightyeight | openbox is a good non-tiling wm |
| 20:00.07 | Tumbly | I like fluxbox for non-tiling. |
| 20:00.12 | Tumbly | and wmii for tiling |
| 20:00.52 | programmerq | should look at wmii |
| 20:01.04 | Tumbly | also, I haven't felt the need to do any configuring with wmii, which I can't say for most other wms. |
| 20:01.20 | programmerq | that sounds like a plus |
| 20:01.30 | klys | wmii is pretty small I can see |
| 20:01.37 | programmerq | the reason I haven't played with awesome more is because step one is "learn about lua" |
| 20:02.37 | Tumbly | brb |
| 20:02.58 | *** join/#utah tom1 (~tom@204.28.244.29) |
| 20:03.10 | tom1 | weechat seems nice |
| 20:03.59 | eightyeight | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDFgI_I-X0 |
| 20:04.03 | eightyeight | that's what i'm talking about |
| 20:04.06 | eightyeight | awesome |
| 20:05.03 | tumbly | on my laptop, they are the blue man group. ;P |
| 20:05.23 | tumbly | There's something wrong with the nvidea driver that makes people look blue in flash |
| 20:05.49 | tumbly | and blue people look read. |
| 20:05.55 | tumbly | s/read/red |
| 20:06.42 | klys | so when I started wmii, xterm filled the screen. when I clicked on the top bar, it iconified it to a draggable vertical bar on the desktop. There appears to be no way to get a menu of applications |
| 20:06.55 | tumbly | yea |
| 20:07.01 | tumbly | super-p |
| 20:07.07 | tumbly | then type the app you want |
| 20:07.11 | programmerq | almost never uses a menu |
| 20:07.14 | klys | which key is super |
| 20:07.18 | tumbly | win |
| 20:07.34 | tumbly | unless it's set up to use alt as mod |
| 20:07.57 | tumbly | I use mod4 (super) (windows key) |
| 20:08.15 | klys | none of this meta-p stuff is getting a menu. my x keyboard is pc105. |
| 20:08.24 | tumbly | mod4-p doesn't open a menu |
| 20:08.41 | tumbly | it lets you type something in the bottom bar |
| 20:08.51 | tumbly | and you can use tab completion |
| 20:09.05 | tumbly | mod4-p then type xterm |
| 20:09.30 | klys | oic |
| 20:09.42 | tumbly | it work? |
| 20:09.53 | klys | I just had it to where the bottom bar wasn't visible |
| 20:10.02 | tumbly | that's odd |
| 20:10.13 | klys | but it is now |
| 20:10.16 | tumbly | good |
| 20:10.27 | tumbly | you get a terminal open? |
| 20:10.42 | tumbly | also, mod4-return should open your default terminal |
| 20:12.34 | tumbly | windows are put in a stack. you can use mod4-[j, k, h, l] to move around them like vi |
| 20:12.49 | programmerq | anyway |
| 20:12.52 | programmerq | I need to go to bed |
| 20:12.56 | tumbly | and mod4-shift-[j, k, h, l] to move the window. |
| 20:13.01 | programmerq | ttyl! |
| 20:13.08 | tumbly | good afternoon programmerq |
| 20:13.11 | tumbly | ciao |
| 20:13.32 | tumbly | programmerq: no this is tty2 |
| 20:13.50 | tumbly | my tty1 has bash |
| 20:13.55 | tumbly | ;P jk |
| 20:14.42 | klys | ok |
| 20:15.16 | tumbly | mod4-[1, 2, 3..] moves between different desktops. |
| 20:15.27 | klys | ok |
| 20:15.30 | tumbly | and that's about all you need to know with wmii |
| 20:15.42 | tumbly | also |
| 20:16.16 | tumbly | mod4-shift-space moves to the floating layer. If you put a window in the floating layer, then it won't tile. |
| 20:16.52 | tumbly | mod4-space goes between the normal layer and the floating layer. with shift, it moves the active window with it. |
| 20:17.13 | tumbly | there are also settings for how windows tile. |
| 20:17.36 | klys | I think I have an xterm floating, how do I pull it back up |
| 20:17.42 | tumbly | mod4-d makes them take up an equal amount of screen space on the stack, and mod4-s goes to stack mode |
| 20:18.14 | tumbly | mod4-space until it's active, then mod4-shift-space to go back to tiling. |
| 20:20.13 | klys | <yawn> |
| 20:20.31 | tumbly | how do you like wmii? |
| 20:22.29 | klys | uh, it works (exhausted) |
| 20:22.35 | sproc | I think it is ironic that the awesome WM webpage shows someone's six-monitor setup ( http://awesome.naquadah.org ). With a good WM, one shouldn't need multiple monitors. |
| 20:22.50 | tumbly | true |
| 20:23.10 | klys | that sounds pretty cool |
| 20:23.16 | tumbly | It's nice to have more screen space though |
| 20:23.41 | tumbly | and a good wm can handle multiple monitors. |
| 20:23.49 | sproc | Like if you work in some kind of operations situation where you need to monitor stuff, sure, but otherwise I don't see any reason. |
| 20:23.53 | tumbly | some wm's can't |
| 20:24.28 | sproc | Perhaps the image's purpose is to demonstrate that, then. |
| 20:24.30 | tumbly | some things demand a fair amount of screen space. |
| 20:24.42 | tumbly | take most web pages for example |
| 20:24.53 | klys | most I've had on one machine is 3 monitprs |
| 20:25.10 | tumbly | I've only had 2 |
| 20:25.25 | sproc | I like DWM's page: "Because dwm is customized through editing its source code, its pointless to make binary packages of it. This keeps its userbase small and elitist. No novices asking stupid questions." |
| 20:25.31 | tumbly | most I've had is 3 or 4 machines on one monitor. ;P |
| 20:25.36 | klys | 1 monochrome, 1 framebuffer console, and 1 video monitor (s-video) |
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| 20:35.25 | tumbly | is there a way to have X run on one monitor, and the other have a tty? |
| 20:37.33 | sproc | Neat, xmonad is only 1200 linues. |
| 20:37.37 | sproc | lines. |
| 20:38.04 | tumbly | that's because it's haskell |
| 20:38.14 | tumbly | you can do a lot in one line of haskell |
| 20:39.43 | tumbly | twm is a lot shorter. |
| 20:39.58 | tumbly | and it's in C. |
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| 20:58.25 | sproc | It is a lot bigger, at least the modern versions at http://xwinman.org/archive/twm/ |
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| 21:40.13 | sjansen | Maybe we're doing something wrong, but Chef's logs are a royal PITA. |
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| 22:11.19 | jsmith | sjansen: You're holding it wrong... uh... I mean... yeah. I'm with you. |
| 22:27.34 | eightyeight | loggate? |
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