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| 15:51.23 | mahelious | http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2033/1277552972510.jpg |
| 15:51.41 | mahelious | theres something at the bottom... |
| 15:54.25 | eightyeight | jnbek: irc issues? |
| 16:01.57 | sjansen | mahelious: lol! (literally) |
| 16:21.37 | jnbek | eightyeight: it seems.... |
| 16:21.43 | jnbek | I'm nto sure why it keeps poptarting like that.. |
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| 16:50.47 | eightyeight | http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ |
| 16:50.52 | eightyeight | sjansen should enjoy that article |
| 16:51.13 | sjansen | Already saw it. |
| 16:51.19 | eightyeight | pfft |
| 16:51.27 | sjansen | I feel bad for anyone that has been pushed to the point of creating such a detailed document. |
| 16:51.51 | errstr | few languages can push a programmer to more desperation than PHP |
| 16:52.26 | eightyeight | errstr: ah, you're here. :) |
| 16:52.51 | eightyeight | got the link from errstr in another channel |
| 16:53.10 | sjansen | ~greet errstr |
| 16:53.10 | ibot | ACTION dumps a bucket of cold oatmeal on errstr |
| 16:54.07 | errstr | mmm, cold oatmeal, thanks ibot. |
| 16:55.14 | goozbach | best line: Do not tell me that “good developers can write good code in any language”, or bad developers blah blah. That doesn’t mean anything. A good carpenter can drive in a nail with either a rock or a hammer, but how many carpenters do you see bashing stuff with rocks? Part of what makes a good developer is the ability to choose the tools that work best. |
| 16:55.48 | goozbach | as I've been taking up woodworking, I've found the power and beauty in good tools |
| 16:56.03 | goozbach | I can't even walk down the isles in home depot without sneering at the selection... |
| 16:57.24 | eightyeight | goozbach: my favorite line is a comment: "i'm never going to criticize php publicly again. from now on I'll just refer people here." |
| 16:58.40 | romanovic | php does deserve criticism... but one thing I would like to see is PHP code examples from those who have come to hate it through experience |
| 17:03.15 | romanovic | do they encapsulate their code cleanly? do they separate logic from presentation? do they use effective design patterns? many anti-php-ites don't, and have the nerve to complain that it is the language's fault |
| 17:03.44 | fozzmoo | HOLY COW! this guy (who wrote the PHP article) was a coworker of mine until a few months ago. |
| 17:04.03 | jsmith | Then he's obviously biased :-p |
| 17:04.42 | errstr | fwiw, php is actually a terribly designed language, it was - in fact - created by a self-proclaimed non-programmer. this has led to many inconsistencies that no design pattern, encapsulation or * can fix. |
| 17:05.48 | errstr | a simple example: php *will* eat through memory and the developer's fix is to never have a long running php process. this is a decision in the design that not even a genius programmer can get themselves out of with a design pattern |
| 17:06.12 | errstr | so, their fix? -- restart the php process. |
| 17:06.23 | jsmith | errstr: Sure, but it wasn't designed for long-running processes |
| 17:06.27 | eightyeight | shakes his fist at fastcgi |
| 17:06.40 | jsmith | errstr: So again, I'd go back to the "driving a nail with an angle grinder" analogy |
| 17:07.07 | jsmith | errstr: It's obviously not perfect, but there's a *lot* of software written in it, and that's gotta stand for something |
| 17:07.42 | eightyeight | wasn't there a lot of software written in cold fusion too? |
| 17:07.46 | fozzmoo | You could say the same thing for Visual Basic a few years ago. Didn't mean VB was "good." |
| 17:08.02 | Jayce^ | There is still how much Cobol out there? |
| 17:08.04 | errstr | VB is a better designed language than PHP |
| 17:08.08 | fozzmoo | Oooh, Cold Fusion. Even better,. :) |
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| 18:04.25 | Migs | "BREAKING: Rick Santorum "suspending" presidential campaign, per Washington Post" |
| 18:09.10 | eightyeight | shocking! |
| 18:09.18 | Migs | BREAKING. NEWS. |
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| 18:16.07 | fozzmoo | \o/ |
| 18:19.26 | sjansen | I predict that Gingrich sleeper cells will give him the nomination. Commentators will point to his selection as proof the the Republican party is being eaten from within by a cancer. When he hears the news, Gingrich will reply "Cancer? I'm outta here. I decline the nomination." |
| 18:38.04 | fozzmoo | Now if only Harry Reid or Nancy Pelosi would resign, my awesomely happy day would be complete. |
| 18:40.34 | fozzmoo | Preferably Harry Reid because SFers would just elect another nut-wagon to replace Pelosi. |
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| 19:30.38 | rsimpkins | How to you measure the health of America? What is the "america is on track" KPI is the best? |
| 19:30.54 | rsimpkins | s/What/Which/ |
| 19:31.04 | rsimpkins | Ahh, gar. |
| 19:35.40 | rsimpkins | Now that I'm done eating and trying to type at the same time... What general statistics or indicators do you consider when determining the health of the USA? What is "healthy?" |
| 19:37.05 | jsmith | rsimpkins: Do you mean "healthy" as in average BMI, or "healthy" in interest payments on the national debt as a percentage of GDP? |
| 19:37.34 | rsimpkins | jsmith: Nail on the head. What is "healthy?" |
| 19:38.07 | jsmith | rsimpkins: Depends on which axe you're trying to grind, I suppose |
| 19:38.22 | rsimpkins | Is it that we have no debt, no trade deficit, no hungry, no crime.... in order to measure efficiency it seems we need to know what optimal efficiency would be. |
| 19:38.25 | JoshH | rsimpkins: you just look at the race and party and religion of the president and go by that |
| 19:39.05 | rsimpkins | What is the "perfect" state of a nation like the USA? |
| 19:39.07 | jsmith | You could look at poverty, incarceration rates, crime rates, trade balance, any number of economic indicators, hours of entertainment consumed |
| 19:39.25 | jsmith | Just remember -- all news is biased, so it really depends on what you're trying to optimize for |
| 19:41.58 | rsimpkins | It strikes me as odd that we keep electing people who claim we aren't headed in the right direction, but can't articulate what the right direction is. |
| 19:42.15 | rsimpkins | "not that way" isn't leadership. |
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| 19:44.15 | rsimpkins | Until we, the citizens, can determine what "right" is we will always be wrong to someone. |
| 19:44.39 | programmerq | something important to me is fiscal responsibility. |
| 19:44.51 | programmerq | but I'm sure that's just the tip of the iceberg. |
| 19:45.10 | programmerq | because I'm sure you could be fiscally responsible and have plenty of other problems |
| 19:46.03 | rsimpkins | You're talking about a balanced budget... right? |
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| 19:46.31 | programmerq | essentially, but there's more to it than just a balanced budget |
| 19:46.55 | programmerq | because you can have a balanced budget, but still be paying $20,000 for a toilet seat |
| 19:48.59 | rsimpkins | We have $15.6 trillion in debt. If we eliminted the entire US military budget and applied it to that debt it would take 23 years to pay off. |
| 19:49.11 | programmerq | yup. It's pretty sad. |
| 19:49.26 | programmerq | the payments on interest, last I checked, were basically the same as the cost of the military. |
| 19:50.02 | JoshH | and what happens when its all paid off? |
| 19:51.11 | rsimpkins | JoshH: Then we'll have 600 billion a year to go build brand new jets and tanks, I guess. |
| 19:51.14 | programmerq | well, we wouldn't be paying so much in interest, so that money could be shifted to other things, or taxes cut. |
| 19:52.28 | rsimpkins | I'm guessing education and R&D will be the first to fall off the wagon. |
| 19:52.46 | jsmith | JoshH: Then we no longer sell T-bills, and dozens of other countries wonder where to invest their money |
| 19:53.33 | brkpt | list *program* |
| 19:53.54 | programmerq | as much as I like the nasa program, the private sector is catching up really fast, and once they surpass nasa in capabilities and safety, then I wouldn't have a problem with dropping nasa from the fed budget. |
| 19:54.38 | rsimpkins | programmerq: Much of what nasa does has general benefits to the population, not specific commercial benefit. |
| 19:55.01 | JoshH | im fine with letting private companies build and take up spacecraft and stuff, but i'm not sure about things like mineral rights on the moon |
| 19:55.44 | JoshH | why shouldn't nasa continue to do research and discover new things that will have a wide range of applications? |
| 19:55.51 | JoshH | seems liek that's the kind of thing that should be in the fed budget imo |
| 19:56.08 | JoshH | assuming you don't think the government should be limited to 3 different roles |
| 19:56.43 | programmerq | all of that is true, but if the private sector can do all that better than nasa, then it seems silly to have the government continue. |
| 19:57.14 | programmerq | it'd be a bit like the government producing cars from 1980 in 2012 |
| 19:57.22 | programmerq | but, that point hasn't been reached yet |
| 19:57.23 | rsimpkins | programmerq: Are you saying we should fund the private sector with public dollars so they work on what the public needs/wants? |
| 19:57.28 | programmerq | no |
| 19:57.55 | rsimpkins | programmerq: Then why should they care - at all? |
| 19:58.12 | programmerq | they as in the private sector? |
| 19:58.15 | rsimpkins | Yes. |
| 19:58.55 | programmerq | well, if the public needs or wants something, that sounds an awful lot like a business model |
| 19:59.08 | JoshH | programmerq: a private company would only want to discover new things to benefit itself/get patents/charge us |
| 19:59.35 | programmerq | there's plenty of private sector research that isn't funded by government |
| 19:59.50 | JoshH | nasa's research can make things better for everyone and private companies can incorporate that kind of research into their products |
| 20:00.04 | JoshH | right, and that's fine, but imo both should exist |
| 20:00.11 | programmerq | I'm not saying that government funding for research is bad, but I do believe that nasa, one day, won't be beneficial by comparison to other entities. |
| 20:00.23 | JoshH | ok... |
| 20:00.34 | programmerq | it's not like the government opens up all its research to everyone. |
| 20:00.41 | programmerq | there are plenty of projects that are classified |
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| 20:00.58 | JoshH | that usually finds its way into the public eventually |
| 20:01.12 | JoshH | anyway, gotta run |
| 20:01.13 | programmerq | patents eventually expire too. |
| 20:01.20 | programmerq | shrugs |
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| 20:01.45 | programmerq | it's possible that the government will have yet another policy shift regaurding nasa that'll change the trajectory of where nasa is going, and that'd be great. |
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| 20:21.26 | eightyeight | perl question: if i have "$Text::Wrap::columns" set to the width of my terminal, how can i get wrap() to not count ansi color codes in the $line? |
| 20:26.02 | eightyeight | i.e.: when it wraps the first line, it took into account the '\e[1;31m' escape question in the count, which i don't want |
| 20:26.15 | eightyeight | s/question/sequence/ |
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| 21:11.28 | fadein | eightyeight: I'd also love to know the answer to that one |
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