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| 03:53.03 | therealdod | Hello |
| 03:53.43 | therealdod | anybody here |
| 03:54.42 | therealdod | do you know what mormon gold is? |
| 03:55.22 | shalkie | Gold that had a proxy baptism? |
| 03:55.31 | therealdod | lol |
| 03:55.37 | therealdod | you're not mormon are you |
| 03:57.20 | therealdod | http://postimage.org/image/irnz4m84z/ |
| 03:57.22 | brac | [View image: 45] |
| 03:57.26 | therealdod | http://postimage.org/image/pjizl7mib/ |
| 03:57.30 | brac | [View image: 46] |
| 03:57.34 | therealdod | Both sides |
| 03:58.08 | shalkie | Depends on whom you ask. |
| 03:58.10 | therealdod | this 10 dollar gold coin was produced at the mint established by the mormons in slc |
| 03:58.39 | therealdod | not all o f the california gold was turned into coins in california |
| 03:58.55 | therealdod | some of it went north to Oregon and some went east to Utah Territory |
| 03:59.12 | therealdod | carried home by Mormon miners who left the cities of Sacramento and SF for SLC. |
| 03:59.33 | therealdod | Brigham Young ordered to setup a mint to turn the dust into Utah coins. |
| 04:00.25 | therealdod | it bears the emblem of the Mormon Priesthood, a three pointed crown above the All Seeing eye |
| 04:00.41 | therealdod | very few of these have survived. |
| 04:01.15 | therealdod | http://postimage.org/image/yd9w2b9gz/ |
| 04:01.16 | brac | [View image: 55] |
| 04:01.21 | shalkie | Okay... |
| 04:01.22 | therealdod | http://postimage.org/image/8vw2wgh4j/ |
| 04:01.25 | brac | [View image: 56] |
| 04:01.31 | therealdod | This is the 20 dollar gold coin |
| 04:02.31 | therealdod | pretty isnt it? |
| 04:06.47 | programmerq | that's pretty cool |
| 04:08.20 | therealdod | they actually had a bit more gold in them than the faced value |
| 04:08.32 | therealdod | so most of them were melted down later on and made into other coins |
| 04:08.36 | therealdod | so its rare to see them |
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| 09:59.33 | klys | off to reboot |
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| 14:01.11 | jima | re...wha? |
| 14:01.51 | jima | klys: i restarted my browser after 4 months, is that what you mean? |
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| 15:07.29 | youtah | Morn'un |
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| 15:19.44 | jima | mournin' |
| 15:24.58 | fozzmoo | sniffs |
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| 15:57.45 | klys | jima: i had an uptime of about 4 days, plus a reboot or two |
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| 16:05.30 | jima | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:05.43 | jima | i hate rebooting, in case you couldn't guess. |
| 16:09.59 | klys | utah: a place where I may never go even though I live here |
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| 16:10.43 | jima | how can you avoid going to utah if you live here, exactly? :-| |
| 16:10.55 | klys | live in a nursing nome |
| 16:11.57 | fugue88 | Well, Utah is a state. But if this land is all federal Territory, then, by definition, it's not part of the State. So you could live "here" but never be in Utah. :P |
| 16:12.00 | eightyeight | jima: avoiding booting into kernel updates, eh? |
| 16:12.15 | jima | unless it's on sovereign land, i think it's still utah. |
| 16:12.25 | youtah | fugue88 +1 |
| 16:12.27 | sjansen | So here's something I haven't been able to figure out. |
| 16:12.39 | klys | i "may not ever" leave. I'm 33. |
| 16:12.45 | jima | eightyeight: not the most concerned, based on network topology |
| 16:12.52 | sjansen | Is Santorum actually interesting in and of himself, if his whole appeal that he's not Romney? |
| 16:13.11 | RyanE | bland as a bar of soap |
| 16:13.13 | jima | sjansen: i think that's the only appeal. |
| 16:13.14 | youtah | I believe it is his frothy disposition people enjoy |
| 16:13.17 | fugue88 | jima: Not sure I follow. A piece of land cannot be both State and Territory. One may be contained in the other, land-locked, but the two are mutually exclusive. |
| 16:13.23 | jima | youtah: *snerk* |
| 16:13.40 | youtah | :-) |
| 16:14.46 | jima | fugue88: well, if klys isn't on state land, then he doesn't really live here, does he? |
| 16:14.55 | jima | klys: sorry to hear. :-\ |
| 16:15.04 | fugue88 | jima: Point taken. :) |
| 16:15.12 | jima | klys: can't leave at all? :-| |
| 16:15.23 | klys | not allowed. |
| 16:15.41 | jima | hmm. for what purpose are you in the nursing home? |
| 16:15.48 | klys | waiting. |
| 16:16.31 | youtah | Jayce^ http://open.spotify.com/track/6VmCCbnlBjknxKs7RWuhgR << good song |
| 16:18.19 | youtah | warns everyone, sharp left turn in conversation |
| 16:18.30 | jima | ...? |
| 16:18.37 | youtah | knowing my luck, I think I have figured out how I am going to die |
| 16:19.11 | youtah | will most likely die while choking to death on Jell-O pudding in a hospital cafeteria, surrounded by emergency room doctors taking their lunch. |
| 16:19.59 | klys | there are so many pathogens around here |
| 16:20.45 | youtah | klys: ? |
| 16:21.11 | klys | i had to sneak tagamet out of wal-mart on a visit |
| 16:22.00 | jima | i hear you :-\ |
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| 16:23.09 | neybar | pathogens are known to cause cancer in the state of California. |
| 16:23.34 | jima | the state of california is known to cause cancer in the state of california. |
| 16:23.43 | klys | there are smokers here, I don't know of any other carcinogen |
| 16:25.01 | RyanE | youtah: been reading too much "Machine of Death"? http://machineofdeath.net/ |
| 16:25.31 | levi | Jayce^, sjansen: You guys might enjoy this book: http://www.amazon.com/Coders-Work-Reflections-Craft-Programming/dp/1430219483 |
| 16:27.35 | klys | whew, the 15 most interesting programmers at work today |
| 16:29.59 | levi | Well, it actually says '15 of the most interesting computer programmers alive today', which is something significantly different. |
| 16:30.13 | *** join/#utah neybar (~jalance@74-220-196-116.bluehost.com) |
| 16:32.00 | klys | hey levi I'm from your old hometown |
| 16:32.56 | levi | Which old hometown? :) |
| 16:33.05 | youtah | RyanE: Have never heard of it... scared to click on the link :-) All this talk of living in a retirement home reminded me of a family member, who vowed they would never die in a retirement facility, and then did. |
| 16:33.26 | klys | you should remember me as d.jeffery |
| 16:33.54 | levi | Ah yeah, I remember running across you on either IRC or the PLUG list a few years ago, too. :) |
| 16:34.07 | klys | that makes 4 people so far |
| 16:34.15 | jessie | Diablo III! |
| 16:34.18 | RyanE | It's a book of short stories with an interesting premise. There's a machine you pay $ into, it takes a blood sample, and tells you cryptically how you will die. |
| 16:34.39 | youtah | whoa, sounds good |
| 16:34.54 | RyanE | I've read excerpts, and it *is* pretty good. |
| 16:34.55 | levi | Sounds similar to a classic Heinlein short story. |
| 16:35.05 | RyanE | The short stories are all by different authors. |
| 16:35.09 | levi | First one in 'The Past Through Tomorrow', I think. |
| 16:35.13 | youtah | side note: it is possible to nail jello to a tree |
| 16:35.31 | levi | (if your jello has enough gelatin in it, sure!) |
| 16:35.46 | youtah | naw, plain ole regular jello. This tree had fallen over |
| 16:36.05 | jessie | ha. ha. ha |
| 16:36.10 | klys | levi could you testify for me at court? |
| 16:36.15 | levi | That's a fairly weak sense of nailing jello to a tree, then. :) |
| 16:36.25 | levi | What would I testify for you at court about? |
| 16:36.34 | klys | sanity |
| 16:36.51 | jima | you're a linux user...this is pretty shaky ground. |
| 16:37.01 | jima | != one to talk |
| 16:37.02 | youtah | ~jima++ |
| 16:37.06 | youtah | lol |
| 16:37.42 | youtah | ~karma jima |
| 16:37.42 | ibot | jima has karma of 1 |
| 16:37.46 | levi | It would probably be better to have someone who knows you better and more recently to testify to that. |
| 16:38.23 | klys | I don't know anyone all I know is my friends at facebook who don't call me and i was evicted in 2008. |
| 16:38.23 | levi | It's been about 20 years, hasn't it? |
| 16:39.02 | klys | mmm, yes |
| 16:39.18 | klys | are you anywhere near Provo? |
| 16:40.00 | levi | Not at the moment. |
| 16:41.02 | klys | remember I was writing a MIDI program?, I uploaded it to someone on this channel |
| 16:42.17 | youtah | wants to go to moab |
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| 16:42.46 | youtah | wants to go to the Ice Cream Parlor just outside of Moab and go Rock Climbing |
| 16:42.47 | klys | this individual was building a fireplace. |
| 16:43.36 | neybar | youtah: that whole album is pretty good |
| 16:43.42 | jessie | This individual is excited to go camping! |
| 16:43.56 | youtah | neybar: the one I sent Jayce^? |
| 16:44.01 | neybar | yeah |
| 16:44.06 | youtah | yeah it is |
| 16:44.12 | youtah | jessie: I hear ya! |
| 16:46.56 | klys | when I was evicted I was pretty involved in writing programs for linux. all that went into a garage and eventually was stolen. |
| 16:48.13 | jessie | I am taking tomorrow off. It is gonna be fun as hell! |
| 16:48.27 | jima | joined this channel last year, that pretty well rules him out. |
| 16:50.18 | youtah | jessie: jealous |
| 16:50.46 | neybar | where are you camping at? |
| 16:51.11 | youtah | jumping off... if you desperately need me... have neybar or jayce^ dm me on the twitter. (btw, I am @youtah) |
| 16:53.14 | jessie | I am going out to the East Desert. Out by Green river. |
| 16:54.18 | neybar | fun. I used to guide rafting trips on the Green river. |
| 16:54.26 | youtah | anyone in the cottonwood area? |
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| 16:56.58 | youtah | Dang you neybar |
| 16:57.06 | youtah | I have to come back because of that last comment |
| 16:57.14 | youtah | My BIL is part owner of Western River Expeditions |
| 16:57.19 | neybar | lol |
| 16:57.20 | youtah | Who did you guide for? |
| 16:57.27 | jima | youtah: why do you ask? |
| 16:57.33 | jima | (the cottonwood part) |
| 16:57.34 | neybar | BYU's Outdoors Unlimited |
| 16:57.45 | jessie | Ew! BYU! |
| 16:57.47 | youtah | jima: I was thinking about going out for lunch today |
| 16:58.16 | youtah | ah man, I came back just to find out Neybar guided for BYU?! uhg |
| 16:58.21 | jima | heh |
| 16:58.23 | neybar | It is pretty hard to complain about a student job that let me play with outdoor equipment all day :) |
| 16:58.44 | jima | youtah: like, cottonwood heights-ish? (i can't say i know neighborhood names all that well) |
| 16:58.53 | youtah | Jima: yes |
| 16:59.23 | youtah | It is pretty hard to complain about a student job that let me photograph football games, volleyball, gymnastics, basketball, etc all day :) |
| 16:59.46 | youtah | (I think I just one upped neybar) |
| 16:59.50 | neybar | doh! |
| 17:00.28 | youtah | Sample: http://500px.com/photo/3537457 |
| 17:00.30 | neybar | looks for a hole to hide in. Oh wait, I already work in a cave. Yay for being a programmer. |
| 17:00.31 | Jayce^ | youtah: except you photograph U games :-p |
| 17:00.48 | youtah | no... I photographed BYU games |
| 17:01.22 | youtah | I have a great photo of a BYU gymnast girl crying on the ground when she sprained her ankle at the UofU meet |
| 17:01.29 | neybar | ouch |
| 17:02.23 | youtah | I photographed this BYU game... https://plus.google.com/photos/117588839385073341602/albums/5654331003624991153 |
| 17:03.13 | youtah | I did however go to the March MTN West Conf tourny to shoot, pretty much Jimmer. Although I was shooting for the Laramie Free Press for that. |
| 17:03.51 | youtah | http://www.flickr.com/photos/slc_jm/5545054367/in/photostream << laramie free pres |
| 17:07.05 | neybar | nice |
| 17:07.27 | youtah | You guys go through the whole BYU UofU Football album? ;-) |
| 17:08.01 | youtah | okay, I am leaving for real this time |
| 17:08.06 | jima | AND STAY OUT |
| 17:08.23 | youtah | closes the door behind himself |
| 17:08.27 | Jayce^ | sends youtah another link |
| 17:10.05 | klys | has the eComstation Demo iso |
| 17:10.31 | klys | it crashes with virtualbox |
| 17:11.15 | klys | mebbe try bochs |
| 17:23.00 | klys | ...it's loading |
| 17:24.29 | Jayce^ | sjansen: http://webgeekjokes.tumblr.com/post/19048718470/how-many-php-programmers-does-it-take-to-change-a-light |
| 17:28.10 | jessie | Jayce^: Hey, be nice. I program in PHP by day... |
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| 17:30.40 | sjansen | To be fair, the same could be said about many software developers not matter the language. |
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| 17:32.48 | sjansen | jessie: You have my sympathy. No one should have to use PHP to put food on the table. |
| 17:34.51 | clintberry | sjansen: Ha ha, I just came here from Utah PHP users group, where they are talking politics. But I put food on the table with PHP, and I am not complaining one bit :-) |
| 17:35.53 | jima | clintberry: you came in here to get away from political talk? uh-oh. |
| 17:36.05 | clintberry | no no, to move it here |
| 17:36.17 | jima | oh, ok. |
| 17:36.19 | clintberry | but you guys were talking software. The irony was hilarious |
| 17:36.27 | jessie | sjansen: Thank you. I am not particularly enjoying it. I could go on a rant for hours on PHP. |
| 17:36.53 | jima | there's a lot of software talk in here...a lot of these chumps are developers. ;-) |
| 17:37.24 | jima | (of course, a lot of my cow-orkers are developers, too.) |
| 17:37.52 | clintberry | jessie: It has some severe flaws, it is true, but it has gotten so much better. Any particulars gripes you are dealing with today? |
| 17:37.54 | jessie | I know. For the longest time I assumed it was the official-unofficial PLUG and SLLUG channel. |
| 17:38.25 | jima | jessie: that seems to be a common misconception -- me too. |
| 17:39.38 | jessie | Extra line feeds at the end of an included file get stuffed in the output buffer, it can create variables on the fly, it's ugly (&$foo, WTF?), ... There's likely more, but nothing else comes to mind at the moment. |
| 17:39.43 | sjansen | PHP has gotten so much better. It used to kick developes in the groin for fun. Now it only bites and kicks shins. |
| 17:40.18 | sjansen | jessie: That's it? You're not even trying. Those points are defensible. |
| 17:40.24 | sjansen | PHP's type rules are not defensible. |
| 17:40.34 | clintberry | jessie: Those are bad ones true. As far as the line feeds, best practice for PHP is to never include the closing ?> in include files |
| 17:40.50 | jessie | sjansen: I was going to say, don't even get me started on the lack of typing. |
| 17:41.27 | sjansen | *sigh* PHP doesn't lack typing, it just has loose typing. What it lacks is sane or consistent type conversion rules. |
| 17:41.41 | jessie | Oh! And the freaking... Oh. Man. sizeof is a language construct, not a class construct on strings or arrays? And it will only take variables, not returns from functions? That pisses me off. |
| 17:41.51 | fugue88 | ~sjansen++ |
| 17:41.55 | sjansen | Typing doesn't means Java style bondage. Don't give up on loose typing just because PHP does it badly. |
| 17:42.47 | jessie | sjansen: haha... I know. I enjoy Python's system pretty well. Java can be a bit extreme at times. I both love and hate defining HashMaps of a specific type. |
| 17:42.52 | sjansen | Now PHP's random function / magic keyword inconsistency is a valid point. |
| 17:43.28 | sjansen | I also love PHP's random argument conventions. |
| 17:43.59 | sjansen | Even in the same library you have foo(needle, haystack) and bar(haystack, needle). |
| 17:45.09 | clintberry | ha ha, it's true. The biproduct of a scripting language that originated for very simple website scripting |
| 17:45.09 | jessie | Certainly. It just makes life so much fun! And the community seems to be much more... how should I put it? Amateur? |
| 17:47.36 | sjansen | It's possible to write professional quality PHP, but it's freaking hard. |
| 17:47.36 | clintberry | jessie: I think you are right on the whole, but there is a lot more amateur PHP developers because PHP is so common |
| 17:47.36 | clintberry | There are some GREAT developers who can write production level PHP code. |
| 17:47.36 | sjansen | Like? |
| 17:47.36 | clintberry | head over to #uphpu where there are some great guys working for big companies doing very cool things |
| 17:47.39 | jessie | Yes, not everyone that does PHP is an amateur. Recently, though, the place where I am working was looking to hire a specific guy to do some contract work. The guy was a PHP dev in every sense of the word. Total PHP junkie. "Oh, Facebook uses PHP so it must be good!" |
| 17:48.45 | clintberry | ha ha |
| 17:48.45 | clintberry | they had to re-write the core to make it work, but hey |
| 17:48.45 | clintberry | http://www.justincarmony.com/blog/ is a good example of a great PHP dev |
| 17:49.49 | clintberry | jessie: and he was probably defensive if you said that PHP had any flaws, right? |
| 17:50.09 | jessie | Oh, totally. Lack of scoping? Oh, that just means that there is blah blah blah. |
| 17:51.21 | clintberry | the lack of scoping is bad. I have loved python for that |
| 17:51.55 | sjansen | PHP's scoping is a little strange, but I love that it restricts access to globals by default. |
| 17:52.17 | jessie | sjansen: But not Superglobals! |
| 17:52.42 | sjansen | The number of superglobals is so small I'm fine with them. |
| 17:53.40 | sjansen | If you can't remember that $_POST, etc. are already taken, you might want to consider another career choice. |
| 17:54.16 | amcnabb | sjansen: in Python, there are no global variables that you can write to by default. |
| 17:54.29 | amcnabb | (without using the global keyword) |
| 17:54.38 | sjansen | Now register globals on the other hand... PHP defended them far longer than any sanity would allow. |
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| 17:56.08 | clintberry | But it sure is sucky importing 3rd party PHP files to find you have conflicting class names. That is what I mean by global scope. When you import in Python, you don't have to worry about that |
| 17:56.53 | sjansen | amcnabb: I'm aware. Python is more sane, but it does allow access to file scope inside functions. PHP doesn't. |
| 17:57.53 | amcnabb | sjansen: if I have to allow some sort of global variable, I would much rather it be a file/module scope rather than an actual global scope. |
| 17:57.56 | amcnabb | shudders |
| 17:58.07 | sjansen | agreed |
| 17:58.57 | amcnabb | I can't think of the last time I used a non-constant global variable. Every time I have seen or used one, it has eventually been a source of distress. |
| 18:16.15 | levi | PHP is the sort of language that needs strict 'best practices' guides, yet seems to have the fewest of them. |
| 18:17.20 | Bikerdan | It's the epitomy of freedom. |
| 18:17.24 | Bikerdan | :) |
| 18:17.32 | Bikerdan | Maybe Anarchy |
| 18:18.49 | Bikerdan | If Democrats had an official language, what would it be, and why? |
| 18:18.55 | Bikerdan | Likewise for Reps |
| 18:20.08 | levi | That is a profoundly nonsensical question. |
| 18:20.25 | eightyeight | Bikerdan: english |
| 18:20.48 | Bikerdan | Sorry. I actually meant programming language. |
| 18:20.52 | Bikerdan | :) |
| 18:21.01 | fugue88 | eightyeight: Is that it? When I listen to them on CNN, it seems so much less intelligent. ;P |
| 18:21.17 | Bikerdan | :) |
| 18:21.24 | eightyeight | fugue88: hah |
| 18:21.35 | levi | In the words of Charles Babbage, "I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." |
| 18:22.05 | *** join/#utah pjdayton (~Adium@199.188.28.9) |
| 18:22.28 | fugue88 | Yeah, the question that prompted that response is a classic. |
| 18:22.39 | levi | It's a handy quote, since it's so generally applicable. |
| 18:23.00 | fugue88 | Something like, "Mr. Babbage, if I happen to put incorrect numbers in, will your machine still produce the right answer?" |
| 18:24.29 | levi | Yeah, his paragraph describing the question and his reaction to it is just great. |
| 18:41.55 | *** join/#utah pjdayton (~Adium@199.188.28.10) |
| 18:47.44 | Tene | The company I'm working at now has a very large PHP codebase. The developers here are some of the best I've ever worked with, and there's still huge piles of horrible code around, for a variety of reasons. |
| 18:48.08 | Tene | Some of it is legacy, some of it is third party libraries, some of it is trying to work with broken models of the first two, etc. |
| 18:48.24 | fozzmoo | Tene: You just can't escape, can you? :) |
| 18:48.48 | Tene | fozzmoo: I'm working in ops; I almost never need to deal with that code. |
| 18:49.01 | fozzmoo | So, you've ALMOST escaped. :) |
| 18:49.04 | Tene | I've voluntarily gone in to fix bugs a few times. |
| 18:49.39 | Tene | The effort I see engineering going through to try to maintain reasonable sanity is absurdly large. |
| 18:50.25 | Tene | So, you certainly say that it's theoretically possible to write professional quality PHP under certain conditions and with certain discipline, but I've never seen that hold up in the real world. |
| 18:50.54 | Tene | When you're working on a foundation that bad, garbage always creeps in around the seams, and you have to constantly bail just to keep afloat. |
| 18:51.00 | fozzmoo | I've found a fairly common story that runs in the industry. Small start-up establishes its business on a PHP codebase written by young guys staying up all night, drinking lots of caffeine, eating lots of unhealthy food... |
| 18:51.09 | *** join/#utah craigj (~craig@library.xwi.xmission.com) |
| 18:51.26 | Tene | That's approximately what I referred to by "legacy" there. ;) |
| 18:51.43 | fozzmoo | A few years in, someone decides it's time to improve things, figure out what this "MVC" stuff is we keep reading about... |
| 18:52.24 | fozzmoo | And then, there's an extremely slow migration away from the old hacked-together, fragile PHP codebase, to something that resembles well-thought-out logic. |
| 18:53.44 | fozzmoo | There are quite a few shops out there that are still either just barely getting started on that migration, or realizing it needs to happen. |
| 18:54.19 | Tene | One of the big problems here is imported and modified forks of third party software and libraries. |
| 18:54.41 | Tene | Our forums are running on a shoddily-patched fork of phpbb from about seven years ago. |
| 18:54.46 | fozzmoo | Exactly. PHP makes that very easy... but it frequently comes with a terrible amount of regret later. |
| 18:54.59 | fozzmoo | Ewww. |
| 18:55.09 | Tene | There are several other examples... |
| 18:55.52 | sjansen | accuses Tene of attempted murder |
| 18:55.59 | sjansen | I'm eating lunch. |
| 18:56.30 | sjansen | I was mid-swallow when I read you're running a 7 year old version of phpbb. |
| 18:56.38 | sjansen | My entire body shut down. |
| 18:56.44 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 18:56.45 | sjansen | I nearly choked. |
| 18:57.12 | Tene | sjansen: brb, lunch. |
| 19:04.52 | Tene | sjansen: that's not even the worst part... |
| 19:06.14 | Tene | sjansen: take another bite before reading my /msg |
| 19:06.28 | fozzmoo | Tene: Wait until you're sure he's got something going into his mouth. :) |
| 19:06.44 | fozzmoo | Oh, I see you're already thinking what I'm thinking. |
| 19:07.32 | Tene | They don't consider it an issue because it's been heavily customized. |
| 19:08.18 | fugue88 | *That* doesn't sound good... |
| 19:11.02 | levi | Well, code that doesn't do what you want isn't very good, either. |
| 19:14.44 | jessie | I read fozzmoo's message without reading all the others and was curious what the heck was going on in here. |
| 19:15.12 | Tene | One fight I've given up on is trying to get the marketing folks to stop writing horrible queries like: select foo from ( select foo from ... ) |
| 19:15.18 | fozzmoo | jessie: Context can be useful. |
| 19:15.34 | Tene | mysql does not optimize that, so it selects the entire result set into a temporary table, and then returns results. |
| 19:15.36 | jsmith | Tene: You're letting the marketing folks write queries... |
| 19:15.42 | fozzmoo | Tene: Wow. You've marketing people who can write SQL?! |
| 19:15.58 | Tene | jsmith: they have their own databases |
| 19:16.07 | Tene | fozzmoo: ... not very well. |
| 19:16.14 | Tene | Well, some of them. It varies. |
| 19:16.20 | fozzmoo | Yes, MySQL sucks at sub-selects. I'm just surprised they don't insist on using drag/drop GUI tools. |
| 19:16.40 | Tene | Some of them are writing map/reduce queries in hive, and some of them are screwing up gui sql tools. |
| 19:17.06 | fozzmoo | Now that's the marketing people I know. :) |
| 19:30.17 | Migs | you mean marketers...have intelligence? |
| 19:30.56 | levi | Migs: Are you confusing marketers with salespeople? |
| 19:31.03 | Migs | maybe |
| 19:31.31 | Migs | in my mind all non-IT people in a company are just a big conglomerate |
| 19:31.55 | jessie | That's not very nice. |
| 19:31.59 | Migs | who knows what they do all day? |
| 19:32.03 | Migs | I'm not being mean |
| 19:32.14 | Migs | I'm sharing how my brain works |
| 19:36.52 | jessie | And we play on computers all day. |
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| 20:11.03 | levi | Anyone here ever looked seriously at Windows PowerShell? |
| 20:13.50 | Jayce^ | lars is a big fan, seems to be absent in here lately though |
| 20:18.31 | levi | A cursory examination makes it seem to soundly kick the ass of Unix-style shells. |
| 20:18.51 | Jayce^ | wasn't sontek a fan too? |
| 20:26.05 | levi | I think Microsoft hate blinds a lot of people to the coolness of some of the stuff they make. |
| 20:27.21 | sontek | I think its really cool but haven't used it in awhile |
| 20:27.24 | levi | And the social graphs of Microsoft developers and Linux developers don't seem to overlap very much. |
| 20:27.33 | sontek | but having access to the whole .net framework from a scripting/shell languages is powerful |
| 20:28.15 | neybar | some of that is that many linux guys left MS due to one to many burns, and haven't had an real reason to look back. |
| 20:28.59 | levi | Well, saying they don't have a 'real reason to look back' is a symptom of the Microsoft hate blinding I was talking about. |
| 20:29.19 | levi | There's actually a lot of reasons to look at what Microsoft is doing, if only to mine for cool ideas. |
| 20:29.59 | neybar | I'm not saying it's logical or anything. I'm just saying that after getting burned you tend to not run back very quickly. |
| 20:30.24 | levi | Yeah, I understand, but it's frustrating. |
| 20:38.23 | levi | It appears that with the current development trajectories, Windows will be a far more pleasant environment for programmers and power users than Linux (ideology aside, anyway) in just a few years. |
| 20:38.47 | neybar | what makes you say that? |
| 20:40.26 | levi | They're learning new stuff and applying it regularly. Linux is mired in tradition and squabbles over fairly petty stuff. |
| 20:40.26 | *** join/#utah manithree (~blr@li4-76.members.linode.com) |
| 20:41.39 | fugue88 | Moving everything to /usr is *not* petty! |
| 20:41.44 | fugue88 | squabbles |
| 20:41.46 | fugue88 | ;) |
| 20:49.45 | levi | It used to be that you'd have to get Linux if you wanted to be able to do anything beyond running prepackaged applications without paying hundreds of dollars for commercial development tools. Now, you can download their web server, SQL server, development environment, and an awesome command line shell for free. They have opened up a bunch of their code, some of it even under real free licenses. |
| 20:52.30 | *** part/#utah Bikerdan (~Bikerdan@67.214.225.82) |
| 20:52.54 | unum | but they're all turing my desktop enviroment into a table enviroment :( |
| 20:53.42 | levi | Nah, there will still be the regular desktop interface. |
| 20:54.00 | unum | s/table/tablet |
| 20:54.16 | unum | for those of you who didn't caucus on tuesday, you should go tonight |
| 20:54.28 | levi | From what I've heard, you will be able to install new versions of Windows Server without a GUI at all. |
| 20:54.40 | unum | turn out will probably be massive |
| 20:54.46 | unum | levi: nice |
| 20:55.00 | unum | I dislike having a gui on my server |
| 20:55.07 | fozzmoo | 15 years later... Microsoft begins to get a clue. |
| 20:55.20 | levi | You'll be able to configure everything via PowerShell, which has built in remoting and workflows and stuff now. |
| 20:55.29 | unum | now if I only I could figure out what jsmith did with all my service start up scripts... |
| 20:55.47 | levi | I think Microsoft has had a clue for a while, it's just been difficult for them to overcome inertia. |
| 20:56.02 | fozzmoo | levi: You're probably right. |
| 20:56.19 | unum | I know there were a lot of issues when they took over hotmail |
| 20:56.22 | Tene | I think *parts* of microsoft have parts of clues, but they have trouble getting them all together. |
| 20:56.32 | unum | and they set out to make a server os that could actually run it |
| 20:56.54 | unum | 7 republicans have filed to run against hatch |
| 20:58.27 | manithree | unum: That's why I'm going to the caucus tonight |
| 20:59.29 | unum | I wonder if they're all as bad as Lee |
| 20:59.29 | fozzmoo | manithree++ |
| 20:59.37 | fozzmoo | unum: One can only hope. |
| 20:59.46 | manithree | What do you dislike about Lee? |
| 20:59.49 | manithree | fozzmoo++ |
| 21:00.11 | fozzmoo | manithree: Liberals see Lee as a do-nothing obstructionist. |
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| 21:00.30 | unum | fozzmoo: do you support his action against google? |
| 21:00.56 | fozzmoo | unum: I don't know much about it. I've only seen a headline. |
| 21:01.01 | unum | his hypocrisy bothers me most |
| 21:01.01 | *** join/#utah pelaofeliz (~pelaofeli@216.51.68.1) |
| 21:01.20 | unum | he seems to believe in a free market unless the company is ran by a democrat |
| 21:01.47 | manithree | What did he do besides grill Eric Schmidt? |
| 21:01.48 | unum | than suddenly the free market is a bad thing, and the company should be prosecuted by the federal government |
| 21:01.55 | Jayce^ | 'cause that could be the *only* reasoning :) |
| 21:02.05 | unum | manithree: launched an investigation |
| 21:02.14 | *** join/#utah macnewbold (~macnewbol@76.8.223.101) |
| 21:02.16 | fozzmoo | People of all political backgrounds are a little uneasy about Google these days. |
| 21:02.50 | unum | Jayce^: actually it's because a major funder of Utah Republicans is sufferring because of google's anti-monopolistic practices |
| 21:02.59 | unum | fozzmoo: do you believe in a free market or not? |
| 21:03.09 | unum | oops I meant monopolistic |
| 21:03.23 | unum | or anti-competetive not anti-monopolistic |
| 21:04.11 | fozzmoo | I don't think an investigation will affect any markets. |
| 21:04.41 | manithree | Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom .. to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. |
| 21:04.43 | fozzmoo | I don't think it's the best use of our government's time right now. |
| 21:04.44 | eightyeight | uneasy about google, but not facebook |
| 21:05.18 | eightyeight | despite google being fairly open about its data retention policies, and facebook 100% secretive and hypocritical |
| 21:05.30 | levi | Of course an investigation will affect markets. Markets are all driven by information, much of which consists of emotional reactions to news. |
| 21:05.34 | fozzmoo | Sen. Lee should be working on saving federal dollars and not spending them investigating companies... unless it's because those companies are plundering taxpayers. |
| 21:05.43 | eightyeight | even going as far as creating data retention for people who don't have accounts |
| 21:06.46 | JoshH_ | unum: which utah funder is google hurting? |
| 21:06.57 | neybar | I'd guess overstock.com |
| 21:07.16 | Jayce^ | actually eightyeight it's a different investigation, this one is about using search market to over-promote their own products |
| 21:07.39 | *** join/#utah nisovin (~nisovin@64.55.129.66) |
| 21:08.28 | manithree | I'm not a huge fan of anti-trust law, but Lee has been a lot better than Bennett. |
| 21:08.34 | eightyeight | Jayce^: i'm not as interested in the details, as the target |
| 21:08.50 | eightyeight | let's hit the big monopoly, and ignore the actual enemy to our freedom |
| 21:08.55 | Jayce^ | ahh, found one of the linked quotes: “While we take no position on the ultimate legality of Google’s practices under the antitrust laws and the FTC Act, We believe these concerns warrant a thorough investigation by the FTC,” |
| 21:08.58 | unum | I of course loved Bennett's health care plan, way better than the one that was passed |
| 21:09.28 | unum | what's the point of an investigation if not to decide if legal action should be taken |
| 21:09.30 | manithree | Bennett would have been a great Democrat |
| 21:09.41 | Jayce^ | manithree: kinda like hatch |
| 21:09.51 | manithree | Exactly. |
| 21:09.51 | JoshH_ | sighs |
| 21:10.06 | unum | Jayce^: let's compare rick boucher to hatch, and see if we can find ANY simularities |
| 21:10.20 | unum | go a head check their vote histories I'll wait |
| 21:10.47 | Jayce^ | unum: or compare him to democrat stalwarts like barney, reid, pelosi,etc :) |
| 21:10.56 | Jayce^ | polenty |
| 21:10.59 | Jayce^ | plenty |
| 21:11.02 | unum | let's take a look at their history on wilderness desnigations and see how they line up |
| 21:11.27 | manithree | Virginia is not Utah |
| 21:11.47 | unum | manithree: are you saying hatch is like matheson? |
| 21:12.03 | unum | but not other democrats |
| 21:12.06 | unum | I'm so confused |
| 21:12.13 | unum | I really wish you would just say what you mean |
| 21:12.15 | Jayce^ | that would explain so much :) |
| 21:12.34 | unum | Hatch is not a libertarian neither was Bennet |
| 21:12.45 | unum | but they're not democrats either |
| 21:12.46 | Jayce^ | man, you really are confused.. |
| 21:12.59 | manithree | I'm saying I don't know or care how Boucher voted on wilderness designations. Virginia is not nearly 2/3 federal land. |
| 21:13.20 | JoshH_ | what do you guys want to happen with all the federal land? |
| 21:13.32 | JoshH_ | drilling? resorts? ranches? |
| 21:13.33 | Jayce^ | JoshH_: release to state control |
| 21:13.36 | eightyeight | JoshH_: give it back to the indians |
| 21:13.42 | JoshH_ | but why? |
| 21:13.44 | eightyeight | ducks |
| 21:13.48 | JoshH_ | what will the state do with it that's so awesome? |
| 21:13.49 | neybar | I plan on deforesting a few places. |
| 21:13.52 | unum | manithree: that doesn't explain how that makes bennet a democrat |
| 21:13.53 | Jayce^ | we can use as we wish in our borders |
| 21:13.53 | JoshH_ | other than make it impossible to camp on |
| 21:14.18 | Jayce^ | some will get used for all the buzzwords, drilling, mining, some *I* can buy to do whatever I want |
| 21:14.21 | neybar | I forgot to raise my sarcasim flag. |
| 21:14.23 | fozzmoo | I'm sure the state of Utah will have some interest in preserving some camping areas. |
| 21:14.25 | Jayce^ | much will sit until there is a market interest |
| 21:14.41 | Jayce^ | some will run to wilderness/park/other designations |
| 21:14.41 | unum | why should Utah get all that federal land? |
| 21:14.46 | unum | I've never understood the argument |
| 21:14.55 | manithree | JoshH_: Where in the constitution is the federal government authorized to own 65% of a state? |
| 21:15.01 | unum | it belongs to all the citizen of the US |
| 21:15.02 | fozzmoo | Most importantly, Utah should be controlled by... wait for it... wait for it... UTAH. |
| 21:15.07 | Jayce^ | unum: because you believe first and foremost in the fed.. others remember that states are first |
| 21:15.08 | neybar | why shouldn't Utah get the land? |
| 21:15.10 | JoshH_ | why do we need more mining and drilling than we have now? the uintah basin area already can't find enough workers with the land they have now |
| 21:15.18 | unum | manithree: he Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State. |
| 21:15.40 | JoshH_ | fozzmoo: that makes sense on a certain level, but look how badly utah manages things (like the dabc) |
| 21:15.43 | unum | Jayce^: you're making assumptions about my belief |
| 21:15.55 | Jayce^ | unum: same as you make |
| 21:15.59 | JoshH_ | do you really think your grandkids will have the same camping quality they do now if utah good ole boys get the land? |
| 21:16.00 | unum | Jayce^: my argument is simple. the federal government bought the property. |
| 21:16.07 | unum | that's my entire argument |
| 21:16.11 | fugue88 | unum: What property, exactly? |
| 21:16.14 | fozzmoo | JoshH_: That's a good point, but it's a lot easier to get things changed at a level closer to the people than at the federal level. |
| 21:16.14 | Jayce^ | unum: so they also say they bough every other state |
| 21:16.19 | unum | fugue88: the entire state of utah |
| 21:16.41 | Jayce^ | wasn't until the creation of the states in our era that they developed a new notion of holding all and selling at whim |
| 21:16.42 | unum | Jayce^: no they didn't the original 13,florida,texas, and main were not purchased by the US government |
| 21:16.44 | JoshH_ | in theory |
| 21:16.46 | fozzmoo | shudders to think how things would be if D.C. (or Santorum) ran DABC |
| 21:16.51 | JoshH_ | but in reality a lot of things in utah can never be changed |
| 21:16.54 | manithree | unum: I do not think those words mean what you think they mean. |
| 21:17.00 | Jayce^ | unum: think of all the LA purchase states |
| 21:17.06 | fugue88 | So, if the question is about the entire geographic area known as Utah, we can say this: either it's a State, or it's a Territory. They are mutually exclusive. Do you agree with that, unum? |
| 21:17.10 | unum | manithree: well the supreme court agrees with me |
| 21:17.17 | Jayce^ | fozzmoo: hey, he wants to run the porn business now too :) |
| 21:17.29 | fozzmoo | shakes head |
| 21:17.37 | Migs | unless it's a terristate |
| 21:17.38 | fozzmoo | And people wonder why I haven't been supporting Santorum. |
| 21:17.40 | Jayce^ | unum: the supreme court also accepts slavery as proper :) |
| 21:17.51 | unum | Jayce^: you are correct the federal government bought all that land and sold more of it to private interest than they have Utah |
| 21:17.51 | JoshH_ | i don't like how chaffetz and noel and all those guys act like it's just about the state's right to have the land, when everyone can see they just want their industry pals to get access to the land |
| 21:18.11 | unum | Jayce^: they accepted it as constitutional, the constitution is not perfect, but it's what we live by |
| 21:18.24 | fugue88 | (when convenient) |
| 21:18.27 | fugue88 | :P |
| 21:18.28 | fugue88 | ;P |
| 21:18.29 | Jayce^ | unum: until the civil war new states weren't forced to return land on creation |
| 21:18.47 | JoshH_ | Jayce^: i know you do a lot of atv'ing and stuff, do you really think you would enjoy teh outdoors more with it all privately owned? |
| 21:18.52 | unum | JoshH_: did you notice how when bush was drilling in that area with out our permission no one cared |
| 21:19.01 | JoshH_ | of course |
| 21:19.02 | unum | Jayce^: neither was utah, read the document |
| 21:19.03 | fugue88 | I cared. |
| 21:19.10 | Jayce^ | actually, no ATV, and I love wilderness, but that is supposed to be a state designation |
| 21:19.23 | Jayce^ | uh, yeah we were, I've read it many times |
| 21:19.49 | unum | and you believe the STATE of utah owned land before it became a state? |
| 21:19.59 | JoshH_ | i tend to be a "country" guy who thinks states should have relatively minor differences with a small, reasonable amount of autonomy though |
| 21:20.13 | Jayce^ | JoshH_: even some of the totally socialist pioneers of the wilderness movement early on preferred state designations, of course they also preferred allowing usage requirements that we block now |
| 21:20.17 | JoshH_ | and i know the utah politicians just want to help their buddies get the land, it's nothing to do with the constitution or whatever |
| 21:20.24 | Jayce^ | spends summers in the BOB and Scapegoat |
| 21:20.54 | Jayce^ | and heck, it'd be much nicer for me to be able to buy the land that I want, but is blocked |
| 21:21.05 | JoshH_ | Jayce^: i would say it doesn't matter if wilderness is designated at a state or federal level, and that it's just a technicality, but can you honestly really see utah politicians wanting to keep ANY of it as wilderness? |
| 21:21.24 | JoshH_ | if so, you don't see the same things in them that i do |
| 21:21.35 | Jayce^ | JoshH_: and don't forget, nearly 2/3 of state trust lands are blocked from use by federeal land policies (hence we can't do crap with our school funding) |
| 21:21.41 | fozzmoo | Oh, so the federal government is protecting us from our own idiocy. |
| 21:21.47 | unum | fozzmoo: all the time |
| 21:21.52 | JoshH_ | here you guys are talking about states rights and the constitution, as if those have anything to do with the real reasons this has become an issue |
| 21:21.53 | unum | and that's a good thing |
| 21:21.55 | fozzmoo | lol |
| 21:22.00 | Jayce^ | JoshH_: I absolutely can, because I've discussed exactly that with them before |
| 21:22.01 | unum | JoshH_: good call |
| 21:22.33 | Jayce^ | unum: I think we often stand in the way of the fed's idiocy |
| 21:22.39 | Jayce^ | much better handled by oneself |
| 21:22.44 | JoshH_ | i think the other way around |
| 21:22.47 | JoshH_ | at least in utah |
| 21:22.54 | unum | Jayce^: I've read too much history to believe that |
| 21:22.58 | JoshH_ | the feds protect us from utah's sharia |
| 21:23.18 | Jayce^ | unum: I would say the reverse, never has a larger beuracracy seen an improvement to the individual's rights |
| 21:23.22 | JoshH_ | not well enough, though |
| 21:23.23 | neybar | utah's sharia? at least you aren't biased then. |
| 21:23.29 | Jayce^ | neybar++ |
| 21:23.40 | JoshH_ | nothing wrong with slight exaggeration |
| 21:23.44 | JoshH_ | :P |
| 21:23.52 | unum | Jayce^: we are healthier, safer, and richer because of the involvement of the federal govrnment |
| 21:24.08 | fozzmoo | Oh. My. Gosh. |
| 21:24.19 | manithree | fozzmoo: Mine. Too. |
| 21:24.21 | unum | the succes of eccles system have prevented a depression for 80 years |
| 21:24.22 | Jayce^ | richer? really? we've lost how much monetary value alone in the last 100 years because of federal management? |
| 21:24.35 | JoshH_ | isn't utah a state that takes in more federal money than it provides? |
| 21:24.35 | fozzmoo | I'm losing all the soda I drank today, unum. |
| 21:24.40 | Jayce^ | oh man, that has the be the most laughable think I've ever read |
| 21:24.42 | unum | JoshH_: I think they all do |
| 21:24.44 | fugue88 | unum: eccles system? Please clue me in to what this is. |
| 21:24.56 | JoshH_ | unum: i believe states like texas and arizona don't, maybe also ca |
| 21:24.57 | Jayce^ | fugue88: keynes fed :) |
| 21:25.04 | unum | fugue88: the way the current federal reserve system is ran, was created by a guy from logan |
| 21:25.21 | fozzmoo | The volatility of the stock market only increased in intensity after Eccles' Federal Reserve was instituted. |
| 21:25.23 | Jayce^ | so JoshH_ , populations with views different than your own should be managed by those that you agree with? |
| 21:25.35 | unum | fozzmoo: but yet we haven't hit 50% unemployment yet |
| 21:25.40 | Jayce^ | boom/bust variations increased dramatically |
| 21:25.47 | clintberry | Eccles created the federal reserve? Dang... |
| 21:25.47 | Jayce^ | unum: because we keep changing the math |
| 21:25.56 | unum | Jayce^: what history books are you reading |
| 21:26.06 | unum | the boom/bust systems have been waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay shallower |
| 21:26.15 | unum | more frequency perhaps, but that's intentional |
| 21:26.22 | Jayce^ | eccles was a major factor in running it after creation, there is a reason that the LDS leadership had, shall we say, distanced itself from him |
| 21:26.30 | JoshH_ | Jayce^: i've said it in here before, but in my experience as a utahn, i think 'states rights' tend to decrease liberty, not increase it |
| 21:26.35 | fugue88 | unum: Really? Charts make them look less frequent and deeper nowadays. |
| 21:26.47 | JoshH_ | people in all the states around us are free to do things that i'm not |
| 21:26.47 | unum | fugue88: link? |
| 21:27.09 | Jayce^ | I'd disagree, I moved her for that among other reasons |
| 21:27.15 | fugue88 | unum: fugue88-memory-of-economic-charts://some-chart |
| 21:27.17 | fugue88 | Sorry. |
| 21:27.19 | eightyeight | JoshH_: first alcohol laws, then gambling (both physical and now virtual), ... |
| 21:27.23 | clintberry | Cool! the federal reserve building is called the Eccles building |
| 21:27.32 | clintberry | I learned something awesome today |
| 21:27.35 | Jayce^ | fugue88 unum heck, just start with shadowstats for recent tracking |
| 21:27.53 | JoshH_ | Jayce^: what can you do here that you can't do in every neighboring state? |
| 21:28.19 | JoshH_ | i mean, i get that california restricts guns |
| 21:28.27 | JoshH_ | but other than that |
| 21:28.31 | Jayce^ | firearms rights is a good one, yes |
| 21:28.41 | eightyeight | JoshH_: they do require a helmet when riding a bike as well |
| 21:28.42 | JoshH_ | idaho and wyoming and nevada and az don't |
| 21:28.43 | Jayce^ | how I can travel with them/etc |
| 21:28.54 | JoshH_ | but you can buy kegs there |
| 21:28.54 | manithree | JoshH_: California restricts everything. High taxes, high regulatory burden, companies (employers) flee in droves. |
| 21:28.59 | Jayce^ | moved to ID first before coming here for the job |
| 21:29.10 | mahelious | TIL David Eccles is Scrooge McDuck |
| 21:29.16 | Jayce^ | WA was becoming New/North California when I left |
| 21:29.22 | Jayce^ | and has gone increasingly in that way |
| 21:29.27 | JoshH_ | utah has pretty high taxes, and doesn't regulate businesses, but it does regulate your personal life |
| 21:29.49 | manithree | JoshH_: I don't like that about Utah. |
| 21:29.51 | JoshH_ | Jayce^: for this convo i'm just comparing us to other red states |
| 21:29.54 | Jayce^ | heck, people complain about the alcohol here, and yet don't about Kansas/etc |
| 21:30.00 | JoshH_ | is utah more or less free than nevada or idaho? |
| 21:30.07 | Jayce^ | Think, do we have dry counties here? |
| 21:30.09 | clintberry | http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45466197/ns/business-forbes_com/t/utah-again-named-best-state-business/#.T2JfVhEwLz8 |
| 21:30.09 | eightyeight | JoshH_: you also are not allowed to talk on your phone while driving. it's a primary offense in CA |
| 21:30.25 | Jayce^ | in some ways less, but we've been fixing a few |
| 21:30.26 | JoshH_ | we're worse than kansas on alcohol, but kansas and oklahama are pretty similar to us overall |
| 21:30.30 | eightyeight | JoshH_: fyi. :) |
| 21:30.41 | JoshH_ | but who would ever want to move to kansas, or even think about it? |
| 21:30.47 | Jayce^ | argues that the best managed state is a joke.. |
| 21:30.48 | unum | you can't rent porn here |
| 21:31.05 | Jayce^ | actually you can, lots do, just limits physical media :) |
| 21:31.14 | unum | you can't run a full strip club and serve alcohol |
| 21:31.36 | Jayce^ | yup, though I'd say that's something better served at the city level |
| 21:31.39 | JoshH_ | but my point is that states only use their rights to make up their own rules and regulations and none of them really give you more freedom than federal law does |
| 21:31.54 | JoshH_ | so why would i support that? why would i want utah to make a mess out of all the public land here? |
| 21:32.07 | unum | but anyways we got off the topic that the federal government owns federal land |
| 21:32.08 | Jayce^ | you always just assume it's a mess |
| 21:32.17 | unum | and I don't think lee has done any more to change that than bennet |
| 21:32.19 | manithree | JoshH_: governments don't give freedoms. Period. |
| 21:32.21 | fugue88 | JoshH_: Freedoms aren't given by governments, they're restricted or taken away. |
| 21:32.23 | unum | in fact they still own just as much |
| 21:32.23 | Jayce^ | I would argue that it's a mess as it is |
| 21:32.30 | Jayce^ | manithree: agreed |
| 21:32.30 | JoshH_ | manithree: and states rights is just yet another layer of government |
| 21:32.44 | Jayce^ | JoshH_: it is, but one that you have more control in |
| 21:32.44 | unum | as someone who's somewhat crippled, I feel like government gives me freedom |
| 21:32.51 | manithree | States don't have rights, just powers. |
| 21:32.58 | unum | it protects me(the weak) from the strong |
| 21:33.02 | Jayce^ | and once states are back where they should be, then the county rights question comes back into import |
| 21:33.05 | eightyeight | unum: how are you crippled? |
| 21:33.13 | unum | eightyeight: it hurts to move |
| 21:33.23 | fugue88 | unum: Firearms do that too. |
| 21:33.24 | manithree | unum: There are cases where gov't can protect your freedom. They don't grant it to you, though. |
| 21:33.25 | fugue88 | :D |
| 21:33.48 | unum | fugue88: bad hand eye coordination |
| 21:33.55 | Jayce^ | yes, govt is just given the list of rights they are to defend.. |
| 21:33.55 | unum | I'd lose in a gun fight |
| 21:34.10 | unum | Jayce^: but with out a government I wouldn't have those rights |
| 21:34.11 | Jayce^ | unum: you need to play more games then :-p |
| 21:34.16 | unum | because others would take them from me |
| 21:34.27 | Jayce^ | unum: no, you have those rights, we just team up to make sure we can keep them |
| 21:34.46 | Jayce^ | God gives rights, we delegate some responsibility to help keep them |
| 21:35.25 | unum | I think some in here may not accept that assertation |
| 21:35.42 | Jayce^ | well, that's the founding principle of our govt |
| 21:35.44 | manithree | Jacye^: God, The Universe, Nature, your choice, they are inaleniable. |
| 21:35.49 | clintberry | JoshH_: but wouldn't you say state government regulations typically refelect the ideals of the local people better, where federal rules typically reflect a more broad national ideal |
| 21:35.56 | Jayce^ | whether you are LDS, or believe in the FSM, it works |
| 21:36.15 | unum | I will say that God gave me agency, and that government doesn't really take that away |
| 21:36.20 | unum | they just affix consequences |
| 21:36.40 | JoshH_ | clintberry: i would say that in most cases, the "ideals of the local people" just means "whatever religious values they want to force on everyone |
| 21:36.53 | Jayce^ | http://www.venganza.org/ for you FSM questioners |
| 21:36.55 | unum | clintberry: I actually can't say that, look how many laws in this state are contrary to what the polls tell us |
| 21:37.00 | unum | take the sex ed bill for example |
| 21:37.04 | fugue88 | JoshH_: Scrub religious from that, and you have a vlid point. |
| 21:37.07 | unum | vouchers |
| 21:37.11 | clintberry | unum: but in general, not specifics |
| 21:37.19 | unum | tax cut after tax cut instead of funding education |
| 21:37.29 | unum | clintberry: I'm having a hard time thinking of time when it's true |
| 21:37.45 | unum | so I'd say in general, no |
| 21:37.54 | unum | the problem is we have a one party state |
| 21:38.02 | fugue88 | unum: Even at the Fed level. |
| 21:38.10 | JoshH_ | clintberry: if we all had the right to do whatever we wanted to, then why would there even be a need for more local control of thigns not related to actually running a municipality? |
| 21:38.13 | fugue88 | We're just confused about what that party really is. |
| 21:38.15 | unum | where a bunch of extremist will show up tonight and dominate and pick extremist |
| 21:38.27 | Jayce^ | unum: I don't see how your examples reflect the federal decisions representing the local better? |
| 21:38.36 | unum | then a bunch of ignorant fools will show up in the fall and vote for those extremist with out even evaluating what they believe |
| 21:38.53 | clintberry | unum: I don't watch every law that gets passed, but i have a hard time thinking the majority of them are not in line with the general population. If the majority of them were, then there would be an uprising fast |
| 21:38.57 | neybar | we already spend over 40% on education, another 40+% on medicare. The state is only left with a sliver after that. Throwing money at our current education system isn't going to make it better. |
| 21:39.00 | manithree | unum: Anybody who disagrees with you is a fool? |
| 21:39.08 | unum | Jayce^: federal government requires a public school system that extremist would eliminate |
| 21:39.23 | Jayce^ | unum: "extremist" of course.. |
| 21:39.27 | clintberry | JoshH_: I am not arguing for more or less state rights, I am just saying local governments ideally reflect the ideals of the locals |
| 21:39.28 | unum | manithree: anyone who doesn't at least look at their state reps web site before voting is a fool |
| 21:39.35 | Jayce^ | unum: so your choice trumps that individuals? |
| 21:39.39 | fugue88 | There are two extremes to every contiuum. |
| 21:39.49 | fugue88 | continuum |
| 21:39.52 | JoshH_ | clintberry: i disagree with almost every bill this year, just like i do every year, but i'm not goign to grab my rifle and head up to the capitol to defend my freedom |
| 21:40.00 | unum | fugue88: sure there's rocky anderson, but I'd never vote for him |
| 21:40.01 | clintberry | JoshH_: Every bill? |
| 21:40.07 | fugue88 | unum: heh |
| 21:40.16 | JoshH_ | almost |
| 21:40.20 | clintberry | JoshH_: then I don't think your views are in line with the general utahn |
| 21:40.30 | Jayce^ | if my neighborhood decided that we didn't want our school to teach sex ed, requiring parents (to pick the current topic of choice), why should that be mandated from outside our neighborhood? |
| 21:40.52 | JoshH_ | Jayce^: same reason it's mandated to learn arithmetic, because it's important for everyone to know |
| 21:41.02 | unum | Jayce^: my complaint is that they are not making an informed choice |
| 21:41.03 | fozzmoo | Maybe they don't need sex-ed in Eagle Mountain at all. They certainly DO need it in West Valley City. |
| 21:41.13 | fugue88 | laughs |
| 21:41.17 | clintberry | Jayce^: There is always home school |
| 21:41.17 | Jayce^ | JoshH_: but why does that have to be at school, and what If I want to teach math differently |
| 21:41.18 | unum | Jayce^: I thought you believe in states rights |
| 21:41.21 | clintberry | fozzmoo: lol |
| 21:41.24 | neybar | and of course it is impossible to correctly learn arithmetic if it isn't learned inside of a sanctioned school. |
| 21:41.24 | JoshH_ | Jayce^: home school |
| 21:41.26 | unum | do you believe in states right or local control? |
| 21:41.26 | Jayce^ | clintberry: you missed that discussion already :) |
| 21:41.32 | unum | again I'm so confused |
| 21:41.40 | clintberry | Jayce^: My bad :-) |
| 21:41.41 | Jayce^ | JoshH_: but we're seeing that's increasingly difficult |
| 21:41.51 | fugue88 | unum: Are you putting those two in opposition? |
| 21:42.02 | Jayce^ | JoshH_: take CA where they are currently suing to not allow homeschooling becuase the parents are union certified |
| 21:42.04 | unum | fugue88: yes |
| 21:42.06 | fugue88 | If so, I think that's an excellent question. |
| 21:42.08 | unum | as did my state rep |
| 21:42.13 | JoshH_ | state schools should have a rich curriculum that isn't designed not to offend prudes or fundies. private and home schools should be more flexible |
| 21:42.27 | *** join/#utah pjdayton (~Adium@199.188.28.10) |
| 21:42.36 | unum | the state is sovereign and cities are not, which is why it's ok for him to the citizen of salt lake what is good for them |
| 21:42.58 | fugue88 | And I agree that there's a lot of hypocrisy around that. I'm on a mailing list that's supposed to be fairly libertarian, very opposed to Fed Ed, and encouraging us to support State Ed. |
| 21:42.58 | unum | but that's also why it's bad for the federal government to tell utah what's bad for it |
| 21:43.18 | clintberry | I am so glad someone told me to join this channel. Great discussions and good viewpoints from both sides |
| 21:43.24 | unum | libertarians are opposed to public schools |
| 21:43.32 | fugue88 | Not these ones, apparently. |
| 21:43.33 | JoshH_ | what i don't get is why do people actually think that sex ed is going to make a difference on whether their kid will have sex or not |
| 21:43.34 | Jayce^ | Utah is cursed in our constitution to be forced into full state school requirements, instead of by choice. Once again because of penalizing lds church beliefs |
| 21:43.51 | unum | Jayce^: 35 states were "cursed" that way |
| 21:44.05 | unum | it had less to do with the church than you think |
| 21:44.18 | eightyeight | JoshH_: i have no problem with sex ed, so long as all viewpoints are discussed |
| 21:44.24 | fozzmoo | JoshH_: Rep. Bill Wright apparently thinks otherwise. |
| 21:44.38 | eightyeight | JoshH_: such as, "sex can be great, whether you're married or not" |
| 21:44.39 | fugue88 | Why is sex ed part of public education in the first place? |
| 21:44.41 | JoshH_ | i'm sure he thinks a lot of zany things |
| 21:44.48 | Jayce^ | fugue88: control |
| 21:44.50 | eightyeight | JoshH_: as well as "sex can also suck, whether you're married or not" |
| 21:44.54 | fugue88 | Jayce^: Ding! |
| 21:44.56 | JoshH_ | heh |
| 21:45.00 | pjdayton | Shouldn't all things be considered in public education? |
| 21:45.30 | JoshH_ | anyway though, it's always been the case that the particularly uptight parents can opt their kids out of sex ed |
| 21:45.36 | clintberry | pjdayton: I don't know. There is a group of people that think pedophilia is something good we need to look into. Should that be taught in schools? |
| 21:45.41 | eightyeight | JoshH_: unfortunately, talking about non-marital sex as "taboo" |
| 21:45.42 | JoshH_ | so all this new law does is limit freedom for everyoene else |
| 21:45.45 | Jayce^ | bah, work calls.. bbiab |
| 21:46.07 | Jayce^ | JoshH_: new law leaves decisions to a more local level.. no requirement |
| 21:46.14 | fozzmoo | Most people I've talked to in my community wouldn't want sexual positions or alternative sexual lifestyles discussed in class, but they would support discussion of condoms and other contraception methods. |
| 21:46.19 | JoshH_ | clintberry: that's something for university level classes |
| 21:46.28 | clintberry | :-) |
| 21:46.34 | clintberry | fair enough |
| 21:46.35 | Jayce^ | afai read (didn't follow that one as much) |
| 21:46.42 | Jayce^ | bah, really going to meeting now |
| 21:47.00 | JoshH_ | fozzmoo: ya, it should basically be about the physiology, health issues, etc. not kama sutra lessons |
| 21:47.12 | eightyeight | heh |
| 21:47.49 | fozzmoo | I have a hard time believing, even with the Big Bad Planned Parenthood involved, that sex-ed would be that bad. |
| 21:48.04 | JoshH_ | it wasn't when i was in school |
| 21:48.16 | manithree | $16 trillion debt is no problem, but school vouchers are extreme. |
| 21:48.16 | JoshH_ | shrugs |
| 21:48.36 | JoshH_ | basically the eagle forum likes abstinence only, and that's that |
| 21:48.39 | fozzmoo | But, then again, I've seen material produced by PP that strongly encourages sexual exploration... and that would probably offend most parents. |
| 21:48.54 | JoshH_ | ok class, today's sex ed lesson is this. be abstinent! tomorrow, we'll say that again |
| 21:49.08 | fozzmoo | Gayle Ruzicka is the perfect face to put on "abstinence only." |
| 21:49.17 | manithree | JoshH_:There's a great Monty Python sketch about sex ed |
| 21:49.19 | JoshH_ | heh, ya |
| 21:49.19 | clintberry | oh man, stop... lol |
| 21:50.04 | JoshH_ | i will say this though |
| 21:50.21 | JoshH_ | when i hear about teens who had sex with absolutely no idea about how a condom or pregnancy works, it makes me scratch my head |
| 21:50.41 | JoshH_ | when liberals argue that they have no information at all and whatnot |
| 21:51.02 | JoshH_ | a lot of information doesn't need a classroom setting to get around |
| 21:51.23 | eightyeight | oh, i think they are perfectly aware of how a condom works, or pregnancy |
| 21:51.29 | JoshH_ | maybe kids who are banned from watching tv by extremist parents have that problem |
| 21:51.42 | eightyeight | they're just either 1) drunk, 2) high, or 3) stupid |
| 21:51.54 | unum | fozzmoo: produced by planned parenthood national, utah |
| 21:51.55 | eightyeight | i don't buy the ignorance card |
| 21:52.04 | fugue88 | "Extremists!" Yay! |
| 21:52.12 | JoshH_ | the conservatives in favor of this bill think that any sex ed will lead to the kids having orgies, and the liberals think it will lead to the teens knowing absolutely zero |
| 21:52.16 | clintberry | I have a question about Utah education funding. I hear over and over we give less money per student than any other state. But I also know we have more children per capita than any other state. What I want to know, is what is the percentage of our budget that goes to education vs other states. Anyone heard anything on that? |
| 21:52.34 | neybar | 40%ish |
| 21:52.35 | unum | ours is over 80% |
| 21:52.41 | unum | I think that include higher ed |
| 21:52.49 | JoshH_ | i help out the kids as much as i can with my liquor store taxes |
| 21:52.52 | unum | and I do think it's higher than other states, as it should be |
| 21:53.08 | fozzmoo | You guys assume too much. I remember when I was in high school and a friend of mine, she was in 9th grade, I guess, was all upset one day. One of her friends finally got her to tell her what was wrong. She said she thought she was pregnant. |
| 21:53.21 | unum | utah has the advantage of having more affluent parents than other states |
| 21:53.28 | fozzmoo | Everyone was shocked, of course, because we never thought this girl would put herself in a situation to get pregnant. |
| 21:53.37 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@ip65-44-231-178.z231-44-65.customer.algx.net) |
| 21:53.37 | neybar | as I recall our budget is roughly 40% ed/ 40% medicare/caid / everything else. |
| 21:53.43 | fozzmoo | More consoling and discussion ensued and she told her friends what actually happened.. |
| 21:54.12 | fozzmoo | She was making out with her boyfriend and he touched her... down there... with his finger! |
| 21:54.17 | clintberry | neybar: And that is probably higher than other states? |
| 21:54.26 | neybar | not sure how we compare |
| 21:54.46 | clintberry | fozzmoo: lol, remember love line? (i don't know how old you are) People would call in with that kind of stuff all the time |
| 21:54.53 | fozzmoo | That was enough, apparently, in this girl's mind. So, yeah, I believe in ignorance. I testify to it. |
| 21:55.07 | fozzmoo | Dr. Drew and Adam Corolla? :) |
| 21:55.10 | fozzmoo | :-D |
| 21:55.16 | clintberry | you know it |
| 21:55.21 | fugue88 | fozzmoo: This is why everyone should be extremists and raise their kids on farms. Then, they'd know! |
| 21:55.28 | clintberry | I remember the same story with a belly button. |
| 21:55.32 | fozzmoo | ~fugue88++ |
| 21:56.01 | clintberry | fugue88: Seriously, though. How could you not know on a farm? Animals reproducing all up in here |
| 21:56.04 | unum | I knew a girl who believed for sometime that women just ended up pregnant(she was home schooled, so she didn't hear many rumors) |
| 21:56.29 | fozzmoo | It's MAGIC! |
| 21:56.37 | JoshH_ | i know there were girls who thought that sperm were these little individual things that came out and swam in all nice and neat and orderly |
| 21:56.40 | clintberry | unum: My cousins are home schooled. Once my little sister said "I farted" and my cousin laughed really loud, then asked what a fart was |
| 21:56.46 | JoshH_ | they learned otherwise soon enough though |
| 21:56.51 | fozzmoo | clintberry: hee hee. |
| 21:57.15 | mahelious | fozmoo: isolated kids with a puritan upbringing pre-90's is one thing. but kids these days have the internet |
| 21:57.30 | fozzmoo | mahelious: That's a good point. |
| 22:00.05 | unum | hmmm state website say medicaid 8.8% |
| 22:00.18 | unum | k-12 49.4% |
| 22:00.29 | unum | and higher ed: 14.8% |
| 22:00.52 | fugue88 | What we really need is fewer children. Or fewer in school, at least. ;) |
| 22:00.54 | JoshH_ | my limited understanding of utah ed funding is that the problem has to do with the fact that there's no "head tax", so huge familes get somewhat of a free ride |
| 22:01.11 | JoshH_ | and that attempts at putting in a head tax have been killed by groups including the eagle forum |
| 22:01.13 | unum | mahelious: the girl I knew was only allowed to use the computer for typing lessons |
| 22:01.30 | mahelious | hope it was mario teaches :) |
| 22:01.42 | unum | JoshH_: not only is there know head tax, but you actually pay LESS in income tax |
| 22:02.20 | neybar | don't forget that ed is funded from property tax, not income tax. |
| 22:02.21 | JoshH_ | so that puts a lot more of a burden on the system, but the reason the eagle forum is against a head tax is because it makes it harder for mormon families to replenish the earth with 10 kids, or whatever they think the family goal is |
| 22:02.41 | JoshH_ | so oit' |
| 22:02.51 | unum | neybar: higher ed is funded from income taxes |
| 22:02.53 | fugue88 | JoshH_: Take it easy, there. |
| 22:02.58 | JoshH_ | it's better to have too many kids and not have enough money to pay their teacher well enough to live, than have parents pay more for more kids |
| 22:02.59 | mahelious | are those numbers state taxes only, or does it figure in county taxes as well? |
| 22:03.19 | clintberry | unum: But income tax doesn't go to schools anyway, right? |
| 22:03.20 | unum | that state collects all taxes |
| 22:03.24 | clintberry | it is typically property tax |
| 22:03.45 | unum | clintberry: property taxes are ear marked for k-12 |
| 22:03.48 | clintberry | sorry |
| 22:03.49 | clintberry | missed taht |
| 22:03.51 | clintberry | that |
| 22:04.26 | unum | I should have looked at the chart closer |
| 22:04.39 | clintberry | Can you link to the chart? I am very curious |
| 22:04.40 | mahelious | so property taxes go directly to k-12 and whatever difference is needed gets pulled from general funds? or is property tax everything k-12 gets? |
| 22:04.45 | neybar | I'm just saying that a head count for k-12 schools is misleading because the funds come from property. So having more or less kids irrelevant. |
| 22:04.52 | unum | mahelious is right that's actually based off of non-property tax income |
| 22:05.18 | unum | if I'm reading the chart right the schools get the property tax money and more than half of the general fund money |
| 22:05.28 | fugue88 | mahelious: About half my property tax is for school. I think that all of that stays within my county, but I'm not sure. |
| 22:05.36 | unum | http://governor.utah.gov./budget/Budget/Agency%20Recommendations/FY2013/FY2013_RecBk.pdf |
| 22:05.47 | unum | fugue88: with in the county but not with in the district |
| 22:06.02 | unum | though they've threatened to change that as well |
| 22:06.04 | fugue88 | doesn't follow school districts well enough |
| 22:06.05 | mahelious | im pretty sure all of my property taxes stay in eagle mountain and saratoga springs, but i should probably double-check. |
| 22:07.14 | neybar | unum: are you sure about that I thought that your property tax went to the school district that the propery lies in. That's why there was all that fuss with canyons/jordan split. Canyons ended up with more money |
| 22:08.04 | neybar | but jordan technically had more kids. They were upset because the funds didn't get split according to head count. |
| 22:08.06 | unum | neybar: and that's why the legislators who live in jordans passed a new law refferred to as the county equalization law |
| 22:08.18 | clintberry | neybar: I think you are right. People in canyond district were funding all the new schools out west, and people were mad |
| 22:08.47 | unum | which completely defeated the entire purpose of creating the new school district |
| 22:08.57 | clintberry | unum: Dang, I didn't know that |
| 22:09.11 | clintberry | Did that happen this session? |
| 22:09.24 | clintberry | I need to be more on top of this stuff |
| 22:09.50 | *** join/#utah tristanbob_l (~tristan@2001:1948:212:feed:219:d2ff:fe6b:108d) |
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| 22:11.06 | mahelious | and the funny thing is a sensible voucher program would translate to a per-head value from the school's perspective. but try to convince a teacher that vouchers don't come straight from the devil. |
| 22:11.35 | jessie | Oh boy, not this vouchers business again... |
| 22:12.58 | clintberry | ha ha, I love this channel |
| 22:13.11 | unum | jessie: I expect it to be back next sesion |
| 22:13.18 | clintberry | Let's talk about vouchers. I want to hear why they are bad. |
| 22:13.35 | unum | mahelious: I think we should look seriously and funding a 100% charter school system |
| 22:13.55 | manithree | unum: I agree |
| 22:13.58 | jessie | I didn't say they were bad. But... lemme look... |
| 22:14.10 | unum | clintberry: my main concern is that upper middle class parent will pull their parents out of the system |
| 22:14.14 | mahelious | unum: my wife works at a charter school in AF. I agree with you completely. |
| 22:14.44 | clintberry | unum: So no upper middle class kids in public education, only lower class? |
| 22:14.54 | unum | clintberry: that would be my fear |
| 22:14.59 | clintberry | And what about children with handicaps |
| 22:15.10 | unum | what do you mean? |
| 22:15.30 | jessie | pashdown was the one that didn't like them. pashdown, Jayce^, fugue88 and myself had a conversation on them two days ago. |
| 22:16.02 | clintberry | It seems like if we went with vouchers, you would put all the kids that schools don't want (for testing reasons or whatever) to the public schools |
| 22:16.19 | unum | ya that's a good point as well |
| 22:16.25 | unum | private schools can discriminate |
| 22:16.32 | clintberry | yes, that is what I am saying |
| 22:16.48 | mahelious | private schools can discriminate if they dont want to accept vouchers. |
| 22:17.01 | unum | mahelious: depends on the way the voucher law is set up |
| 22:17.08 | mahelious | but they have to meet state guidelines to cash in on those. |
| 22:17.43 | mahelious | unum: i guess thats true, i figured some quality control was part of the proposals. |
| 22:17.48 | unum | mahelious: you're assuming |
| 22:18.20 | mahelious | since its all theory atm |
| 22:18.35 | clintberry | I am not saying I am for or against vouchers yet, but for some reason creating a bunch of elitist schools and reject schools doesn't sit right with me |
| 22:18.59 | clintberry | and who knows if that would happen |
| 22:20.13 | unum | mahelious: there was a state law at one point |
| 22:20.54 | unum | clintberry: I feel the same way, but I think a charter system could acheive the goal of voucher with out creating the two class school system |
| 22:21.23 | mahelious | clintberry: there already are elitist schools and reject schools (eg alpine high vs provo high). I'd just prefer it was based on capital, not geography. |
| 22:21.42 | manithree | clintberry: Some people assume the failing public schools would be force to improve if they had real competition. That would potentially solve the two-class system. Some people don't believe in competition. |
| 22:22.24 | unum | manithree: you need to read about market for lemons |
| 22:22.27 | clintberry | man I love this channel (sorry to be a broken record). My wife hates politics, and this is giving me my fix. Thanks for the ocmments |
| 22:22.51 | unum | clintberry: I intentionally married an other bleeding heart liberal :) |
| 22:22.57 | jessie | Oh boy, this is still tame, too clintberry. :-) |
| 22:23.03 | unum | we stay up late complaining about our state rep :) |
| 22:23.16 | jessie | And I consider myself to be pretty whack job conservative. |
| 22:23.18 | clintberry | ha ha, that is awesome. |
| 22:23.36 | clintberry | unum, you are in UPHPU, right? |
| 22:23.42 | unum | clintberry: ya |
| 22:23.47 | clintberry | cool. |
| 22:24.01 | manithree | unum: how does information asymmetry apply to public schools? |
| 22:24.26 | mahelious | hatch sold us out to california! protecting public lands is supporting terrorism! i want to buy teuila at wal-mart! |
| 22:24.28 | mahelious | ducks |
| 22:24.55 | jessie | mahelious: I loathe hatch. Way to protect the software developers in your state, butt nugget. |
| 22:25.13 | unum | manithree: because it can be hard to make an informed decision about a school |
| 22:25.25 | unum | especially when you are looking at the fact your child will have to be there over time |
| 22:25.42 | manithree | unum: Ah yes, parents can't be trusted to make decisions about their family, only the gov't can. |
| 22:25.44 | unum | not all parents are equiped to make good choices |
| 22:25.58 | unum | manithree: that's the basis of the theory |
| 22:26.03 | unum | people can't make good choices |
| 22:26.29 | unum | it's why the government inspects our meat, tests our medicine, and inspects our planes |
| 22:26.50 | unum | competition does not always create high quality products |
| 22:27.03 | manithree | unum: And it's such resounding success at all those things (including education). Wow. That's about all I can say. |
| 22:27.06 | unum | in fact un regulated competition generally does the opposite |
| 22:28.32 | manithree | I tend to focus more on results than my distrust of other people. |
| 22:29.09 | unum | manithree: I haven't died from tainted meat yet |
| 22:29.16 | unum | or from air plane crash |
| 22:29.25 | unum | also I went to public schools and am doing fairly well |
| 22:29.36 | unum | also my mediced has been effective |
| 22:29.44 | unum | so ya I'm looking at results |
| 22:29.53 | unum | you're focused on a mistrust of the federal government |
| 22:31.11 | unum | where's levi today? |
| 22:31.56 | manithree | A philosophic standpoint I am much more comfortable with than saying parents are too stupid to decide where there kids should go to school. |
| 22:33.35 | manithree | But, if you think gov't education is a success, then I don't really think we live on the same planet. |
| 22:33.39 | jessie | Yeah, believing that people are inherently stupid isn't a good basis for society. |
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| 22:34.07 | unum | jessie: specialization is the foudation of modern society |
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| 22:34.25 | manithree | jessie: It's a great basis for a totalitarian society. |
| 22:34.36 | jessie | "<unum> people can't make good choices" |
| 22:34.53 | jessie | That sounds like what you are basing the government's control on. |
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| 22:35.29 | unum | our society is too advanced for people to make informed decisions on every subject |
| 22:35.32 | unum | myself included |
| 22:35.37 | unum | I know computers very well |
| 22:35.47 | unum | I know politics pretty well |
| 22:35.52 | unum | I hardly know anything else |
| 22:35.56 | unum | I'm a specialist |
| 22:36.05 | unum | I'm smart about a couple of things |
| 22:36.06 | jessie | So we let the Government choose for us? |
| 22:36.33 | unum | we hire specialist to help us make informed decisions, and reduce the likelyhood of making bad ones |
| 22:37.01 | manithree | unum: Which is totally different than government mandates, and what you implied earlier |
| 22:37.03 | jessie | Sorry, let me rephrase that, so the government decides what is for us? Sorry, I don't trust the government that much. |
| 22:37.06 | sjansen | jessie: We could. But I favor a system more like American Idol. I'll do what Simon Cowell tells me to. |
| 22:37.36 | unum | manithree: when I say "we" I mean our elected officials |
| 22:37.54 | unum | the fda are experts hired by us to verify the drug companies claims |
| 22:38.13 | unum | the faa are experts hired by us to inspect the planes we use |
| 22:38.34 | jessie | And how well has that worked out? How many people still die from drug complications, etc. Not to mention the stifling of innovation that happens. |
| 22:38.47 | unum | jessie: I think it's better than the alternative |
| 22:38.53 | unum | I can understand that you disagree with that |
| 22:39.09 | unum | but my time spent reading history has lead me to different conclusions |
| 22:39.15 | manithree | unum: Black and white thinking (or straw man) that there is only one alternative |
| 22:39.32 | unum | manithree: I didn't say there weren't other alternatives |
| 22:39.36 | unum | I just like this one best |
| 22:39.45 | manithree | unum: You said THE alternative |
| 22:40.00 | unum | manithree: ok you are right |
| 22:40.05 | unum | I meant alterntives |
| 22:40.10 | unum | that is far more accurate |
| 22:41.23 | jessie | Sorry guys, I gotta leave. My office is literally 78 degrees right now. |
| 22:41.28 | jessie | I can't handle this, time to go home. |
| 22:42.07 | manithree | IRC flames overheat local offices. Film at 10 |
| 22:42.43 | jessie | No, it is like this all day every day. Windows and doors wide open and the heater is turned off. |
| 22:42.54 | jessie | Why? I don't know, but holy crap I hate it. |
| 22:43.07 | manithree | I don't blame you |
| 22:43.37 | unum | even though the maintaince is ran by a private company? |
| 22:43.38 | unum | weird |
| 22:43.42 | unum | everything should be perfect |
| 22:43.57 | manithree | It's weird how working in the yard in 90+ degrees with sweat dripping down my face is one thing, but an uncomfortable office is murder. |
| 22:44.27 | manithree | unum: Black and white again. Nobody ever said privatization/competition was perfect. Only better |
| 22:52.29 | unum | manithree: I say the opposite |
| 22:52.34 | unum | actually I take that back |
| 22:52.38 | unum | I think there's a balance |
| 22:53.05 | unum | I don't think they government should make all of our decisions but there should be regulation in place to prevent us from being taken advantage of |
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| 22:53.41 | unum | I know a lot of libertarians feel that those issues can be resolved through lawsuits but think there are many cases where that is not ideal |
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| 23:08.07 | unum | I guess it's after 5ym |
| 23:08.27 | unum | no one ever told me what Lee was doing about transferring federal lands to utah that bennet wasn't |
| 23:08.48 | unum | in fact Bennet has successfully transferred federal land to private ownership, Lee has not |
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