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| 14:53.35 | goozbach | goats.com kickstarter! http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jonrosenberg/goats-book-iv-inhuman-resources |
| 14:53.45 | goozbach | go, pledge, goats! |
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| 18:45.00 | Migs | http://www.lolwithme.org/wp-content/uploads/Mormons.jpg |
| 18:45.27 | fozzmoo_ | Yep. So true. :) |
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| 19:14.12 | jima | anyone in here big cisco customers? |
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| 21:29.13 | sjansen | Argh! |
| 21:29.36 | sjansen | I was just discussing PHP's "arrays" with a co-worker. |
| 21:29.37 | jsmith | sjansen: I've heard of argc and argv, but never argh... |
| 21:29.48 | jsmith | sjansen: Oh? This has to be good... |
| 21:30.08 | sjansen | For those that aren't aware, PHP's "array" is a mislabeled, deeply perverted data structure. |
| 21:30.08 | jsmith | pops himself some popcorn and listens to the story |
| 21:30.35 | jima | i...think i encountered it once. the memory is vague, almost as if i repressed it? |
| 21:31.03 | fozzmoo | Perl puts all arguments into a hash called %argh. |
| 21:31.04 | sjansen | At the point he said "Well, maybe computer scientists designed it wrong and PHP fixed it" I could only point out he had just admitted defeat and end the conversation. |
| 21:31.05 | fozzmoo | (kidding!) |
| 21:31.33 | fozzmoo | ~cheer sjansen |
| 21:31.33 | ibot | Three cheers for sjansen! Hip hip Hurray! Hip hip Hurray! Hip hip Hurray! |
| 21:31.37 | sjansen | Background: What PHP calls an array is actually an ordered map. |
| 21:32.29 | jima | if it quacks like a duck... |
| 21:32.52 | sjansen | Unlike an array or list, index does not define order. Unlike a map, dictionary, or hash, items do have a defined order. |
| 21:32.54 | fugue88 | jima: ... then it's an ordered map. |
| 21:33.24 | jima | weirdest. adage. this week. |
| 21:33.31 | fugue88 | :D |
| 21:33.42 | sjansen | The seemingly the reasonable decision to combine lists and dictionaries then call it an array result in all kinds of unexpected behavior. |
| 21:34.01 | fugue88 | Like your "array" quacking at you... |
| 21:34.18 | jima | fugue88: wait, that doesn't happen to everyone? |
| 21:35.07 | fugue88 | isn't willing to admit anything publicly |
| 21:35.21 | goozbach | leans forward and rests his head on his hand |
| 21:35.35 | sjansen | php > $a = array(1 => 'b', 'c'); |
| 21:35.35 | sjansen | php > $a[0] = 'a'; |
| 21:35.35 | sjansen | php > echo join(' ', $a); |
| 21:35.35 | sjansen | b c a |
| 21:35.35 | sjansen | php > print_r($a); |
| 21:35.36 | sjansen | Array |
| 21:35.38 | sjansen | ( |
| 21:35.40 | sjansen | [1] => b |
| 21:35.42 | sjansen | [2] => c |
| 21:35.44 | sjansen | [0] => a |
| 21:35.49 | sjansen | ) |
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| 21:36.07 | fugue88 | heh |
| 21:36.55 | sjansen | I can live with PHP being a deeply flawed language. |
| 21:37.41 | fugue88 | But you can't live with it flawing on you? |
| 21:37.52 | sjansen | In fact, I'm glad there's a train wreck of a language that I can point at to explain why the easiest shortcut will often result in unintended consequences the outweight any short term benefit. |
| 21:38.20 | sjansen | But it _really_ bugs me that a co-worker now thinks the PHP way of doing things is the right way. |
| 21:38.57 | fugue88 | Yeah, that *is* pretty bad. :( |
| 21:40.25 | sjansen | The worst part is there's really only one way to really understand how bad PHP is: learn and use other languages over an extended period of time. |
| 21:41.41 | eightyeight | why would nfs cause io wait to go through the roof? |
| 21:41.50 | eightyeight | server-side, that is? |
| 21:42.03 | sjansen | sync? |
| 21:42.09 | eightyeight | yes |
| 21:42.18 | sjansen | Waiting for replies from clients? |
| 21:42.49 | sjansen | I'm not an expert in the NFS protocol, but I'm betting it's a result of trying to synchronize state with clients. |
| 21:43.25 | sjansen | "I'm about to modify a file. All clients need to invalidate their caches if they contain data from the file." |
| 21:43.37 | sjansen | client1: "okay boss" |
| 21:43.45 | sjansen | client2: "done" |
| 21:44.01 | sjansen | client3: "wait! I was about to send an update for that file!" |
| 21:44.14 | sjansen | Just my theory. |
| 21:44.27 | eightyeight | makes sense. but, if they're all writing different files? |
| 21:44.38 | eightyeight | and using async drops the io wait |
| 21:45.26 | fugue88 | If you use sync, the nfs server process has to wait for the harddrive to finish the write before sending the ack back to the client. Is that not the culprit you're looking for? |
| 21:45.40 | eightyeight | possibly |
| 21:45.55 | eightyeight | using async, io wait is indeed 0 now |
| 21:46.00 | sjansen | Accessing different files increases the probability that any file will cause a delay. Access the same file increases the probability that multiple clients will have a conflict. |
| 21:46.03 | eightyeight | makes me nervous about data integrity though |
| 21:46.26 | sjansen | Any way you look at, having clients increases the probability you're screwed. |
| 21:46.34 | sjansen | For best performance, run the server without any clients. |
| 21:46.39 | fugue88 | +1 |
| 21:46.45 | eightyeight | heh |
| 21:47.04 | eightyeight | send data through the ether? telepathy? |
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| 22:33.59 | shalkie | Anyone have experience with this style rack? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816129036 |
| 22:34.37 | shalkie | The reviews look pretty good and you can't really beat the price. |
| 22:35.31 | fozzmoo | It'd be fine for switches, patch panels, and the like. I wouldn't mount a server on it. |
| 22:35.42 | fozzmoo | Except maybe a mini-ITX server |
| 22:36.24 | goozbach | shalkie: you want this: http://wiki.eth-0.nl/index.php/LackRack |
| 22:37.16 | fozzmoo | Heh. I was gonna mention the Lack Rack. |
| 22:38.04 | shalkie | Yeah, I have looked at the Lack Rack and the larger table version before. |
| 22:38.18 | shalkie | This just looked a bit more effecient on space. |
| 22:39.52 | shalkie | It does lack stackability though. Really I want a nice 2 to 4 post rack, but I don't have a place to anchor it at the moment. |
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