| 00:11.36 | fadein | DNS issues? Probably the MPAA. You know, saving us from inferior-quality counterfeit Spongebob toys |
| 00:11.40 | fadein | God bless them! |
| 00:24.48 | goozbach | does anaconda support CIDR notation for netmask in the boot options? |
| 00:24.59 | goozbach | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Anaconda_Boot_Options doesn't say |
| 00:25.05 | goozbach | jsmith? ^^ |
| 00:25.24 | goozbach | guess I could try it |
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| 00:32.50 | jsmith | goozbach: I *think* so, but I could be wrong |
| 00:37.58 | goozbach | I can always do this: ifconfig eth0 | awk ' /inet / { print substr($4, index($4,":")+1) }' |
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| 04:24.41 | fadein | how many of you guys lurk on USU's fslc IRC server? |
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| 05:07.36 | TodPunk | fadein: I'd wager they're more than likely to use the same nick on multiple IRC networks where possible |
| 05:07.46 | TodPunk | so most of them you could just check the user lists and see |
| 05:30.08 | fadein | I found an eightyeight, a goozbach and an unum, but their real-life names and ipaddresses don't match what I see on freenode |
| 05:42.31 | TodPunk | I don't know the enforcement over there, so I can't say why they would be different, but it's not unlikely that here they can connect more anonymously than there? |
| 05:43.38 | fadein | take that back - unum is the same |
| 05:44.01 | fadein | the others have freenode cloaks, b/c of their group affiliations I suppose |
| 05:46.34 | fadein | anyway, I just keep bumping into you people wherever I go. |
| 05:46.37 | fadein | small world indeed. |
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| 06:48.54 | fozzmoo | What is fslc's IRC server address? |
| 06:51.48 | fozzmoo | Ahh. Still at fslc.usu.edu |
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| 13:22.52 | goozbach | fozzmoo: yup |
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| 14:41.19 | jsmith | Wow -- I haven't connected to the fslc server in *years* |
| 14:53.31 | goozbach | I've been on the fslc server since before I was ever on #utah |
| 14:53.34 | goozbach | by months |
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| 15:12.30 | fozzmoo | goozbach: yep. I remember. |
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| 15:55.27 | goozbach | sontek: did you say you don't use nose to run your tests? |
| 15:55.44 | goozbach | I've got a test I can run manually but I can't get nose to pick it up |
| 15:55.46 | goozbach | :( |
| 15:56.04 | sjansen | remembers somebody mentioning they prefer py.test |
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| 15:56.40 | goozbach | tries py.test |
| 15:56.50 | goozbach | unless there's a nose expert poking around |
| 15:58.00 | fugue88 | We just switched aproject away from nose. |
| 15:58.36 | fugue88 | Our jenkins (formerly known as hudson) server couldn't grok nose's output or something, and marked every run of the test suite as failed. |
| 15:58.54 | goozbach | fugue88: away from nose to what? |
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| 15:59.38 | fugue88 | I think my teammate found some snippet for Django apps. It basically wraps Django's test-runner but gives back the feature that you can select individual tests to run on the command line. |
| 15:59.54 | fugue88 | And ours is a Django app. |
| 16:00.39 | fugue88 | goozbach: If you want the snippet, I could maybe dig it up. |
| 16:00.44 | goozbach | maybe |
| 16:01.07 | fugue88 | goozbach: https://gist.github.com/1450104 |
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| 16:13.27 | jima | whee, ipv6 |
| 16:21.21 | sontek | goozbach: yeah, I don't like nose for various reasons. pytest is really nice |
| 16:21.47 | sjansen | Care to elaborate? |
| 16:22.09 | sjansen | "Nose stole my prom date _during_ the prom." |
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| 16:22.29 | sjansen | "I once saw Nose kick a puppy." |
| 16:22.39 | sontek | I don't like being mean to opensource projects ;P I'll tell you why I like pytest though |
| 16:23.41 | sontek | py.test output is really clean and easily parseable, supports multiprocessing so you can run tests in parallel, and has a vim plugin so you can run your tests from the editor |
| 16:31.46 | sontek | But either way I stick primarily to unittest2 from the structure of my tests and use pytest only as a test runner and some very specific extensions for managing sqlalchemy tests |
| 16:32.37 | goozbach | ok |
| 16:32.47 | goozbach | I'm writing tests at the moment |
| 16:32.49 | sontek | http://sontek.net/writing-tests-for-pyramid-and-sqlalchemy for the sqlalchemy stuff |
| 16:32.59 | goozbach | we've not decided on a test runner at this point |
| 16:33.04 | goozbach | I've been using unittest |
| 16:33.16 | goozbach | what's the difference between unittest and unittest2 |
| 16:33.58 | goozbach | and what's the best practice for configuring said tests? |
| 16:34.01 | goozbach | ie |
| 16:34.32 | goozbach | I want to do something like this: ./testrunner.py --shelf=32 |
| 16:34.46 | goozbach | and have my runner pass that option into my unittest-style test |
| 16:34.52 | sontek | unittest2 is the backport of the unittest stuff in python2.7/python3 |
| 16:35.03 | sontek | it was backwards incompatible so they changed the name |
| 16:35.20 | goozbach | so I can do something like this in test/test1.py |
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| 16:35.25 | goozbach | class foo: |
| 16:35.33 | nose_ | what'd you say about me? |
| 16:35.39 | goozbach | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:35.54 | goozbach | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:37.47 | sontek | ok, you can do that with pytest pretty easily |
| 16:37.52 | goozbach | nose_: didn't say a thing |
| 16:38.13 | nose_ | goozbach: true, it was sjansen |
| 16:42.57 | sjansen | nose_: And I'd do it again! |
| 16:43.25 | sjansen | ~pick nose_ |
| 16:43.26 | ibot | ACTION carefully extracts the boogers from nose_'s nose and feeds them to Heartsbane |
| 16:43.57 | sjansen | Heartsbane: I.. I'm sorry. I had no idea. |
| 16:49.01 | sontek | goozbach: http://paste2.org/p/1862581 |
| 16:49.02 | brac | [Paste2: Next Generation Pastebin - Viewing Paste 1862581] |
| 16:49.15 | sontek | goozbach: conftest.py is the standard place you configure pytest |
| 16:50.01 | sontek | goozbach: so you define command arguments you would accept and functions with the name pytest_funcarg__<name> inject their value to that argument |
| 16:50.36 | sontek | goozbach: so since test_arg accepts shelf, the shelf commandline argument will get injected into it |
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| 16:52.53 | goozbach | def pytest_funcarg__shelf(request): |
| 16:53.01 | goozbach | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:53.24 | Heartsbane | sjansen: I probably had it coming for starting that rumor that you are a closet top poster at every LUG meeting I attend |
| 16:54.24 | sontek | goozbach: yeah |
| 16:55.42 | sontek | goozbach: then you can run your tests py.test --shelf=123 to see it in action |
| 16:57.29 | sontek | goozbach: also if you are working specifically with numbers you can type="int" on the add_option line |
| 16:57.40 | sontek | goozbach: thats all just optparse stuff http://docs.python.org/library/optparse.html |
| 16:57.42 | brac | [15.5. optparse — Parser for command line options — Python v2.7.2 documentation] |
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| 17:20.28 | unum | pashdown: happy birthday |
| 17:21.41 | pashdown | thank you! |
| 17:22.52 | sjansen | ~congratulate pashdown |
| 17:22.52 | ibot | ACTION congratulates pashdown on being a new owner of a $500 brick. |
| 17:23.09 | pashdown | i have a lot of those bricks and cabinets |
| 17:23.27 | sjansen | was hoping for the moose |
| 17:23.32 | sjansen | Maybe... |
| 17:23.35 | sjansen | ~console pashdown |
| 17:23.36 | ibot | ACTION gives pashdown the consolation moose |
| 17:24.05 | sjansen | Let's all pretend that's an appropriate birthday greeting. |
| 17:29.34 | sontek | ~lart pashdown |
| 17:29.34 | ibot | slaps pashdown around with a large trout |
| 17:29.45 | sontek | that is a birthday greeting as well |
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| 17:30.51 | sjansen | Oh man, I'm jealous. No one ever fish slaps me on my birthday. |
| 17:31.14 | unum | sjansen: get the trib to send me an email on your birthday, and then I'll do it |
| 17:31.24 | pashdown | i'm so lucky |
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| 17:39.30 | Gate | yay for pashdown :) |
| 17:39.59 | jima | yes, happy birthday, complete stranger! |
| 17:40.42 | Gate | jima: but everyone knows pashdown! |
| 17:41.18 | shalkie | Happy BDay pashdown |
| 17:41.21 | jima | Gate: i don't know anyone in here, actually. |
| 17:41.28 | Gate | jima: http://peteashdown.org/ |
| 17:41.31 | pashdown | jima, i'm standing right behind you |
| 17:41.34 | Gate | ^ hes kinda well known |
| 17:41.36 | jima | well, ok, i talked to jsmith on the phone once |
| 17:41.56 | jima | pashdown: AWESOME wall costume. i'm impressed. |
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| 17:55.11 | goozbach | pashdown: you're running again this year?! |
| 17:55.13 | goozbach | awesome! |
| 17:55.21 | goozbach | makes me wish I still lived in utah |
| 17:55.24 | pashdown | aye |
| 17:56.30 | JoshH | but then if he loses, you'll want to escape again |
| 17:57.25 | sontek | If an earthquake could drop California and Nevada off and get Utah on the coast I would be back there so fast |
| 17:57.29 | sontek | I just need my ocean |
| 17:57.45 | goozbach | JoshH: way I figgure it if he's elected in 2012, then ashdown for president in 2016 would be easier :) |
| 17:57.58 | pashdown | we have a stinky sea that you can pretend is the ocean |
| 17:58.06 | shalkie | goozbach: Just say you do. :-) |
| 17:59.43 | fadein | hey pashdown, where can I get one or more of those attractive yard-signs? |
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| 18:00.07 | pashdown | drop by the building at 780 E South Temple, SLC on Saturday between 1-3 |
| 18:00.14 | fadein | got it :) |
| 18:00.14 | sontek | I see the 2 party system falling apart this year, a Romney pashdown ticket! |
| 18:00.19 | sjansen | fadein: Yard signs are for influencing political opinion, not build forts. |
| 18:01.09 | fadein | sjansen: if I want to build a fort, I'll just use some Hatch signs :) |
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| 18:04.24 | jima | sjansen: who says you can't do both, by building the fort in the front yard? |
| 18:05.02 | pashdown | i endorse all pashdown forts with good visibility |
| 18:06.02 | shalkie | Sweet! Sounds like a good Family night activity if you have little ones! |
| 18:13.20 | sontek | I'm a little far away to stop by and pick up a sign, but if you mail one to Florida I'll put it in my front yard! |
| 18:16.08 | Gate | pashdown: got anything a little further south? like St George? :) |
| 18:16.21 | pashdown | not at the moment |
| 18:24.21 | sjansen | Gate: Volunteering? |
| 18:28.21 | Gate | sjansen: not quite :) more like considering putting up a sign |
| 18:29.26 | stderr- | oh Mossad, you GUYS |
| 18:32.10 | Gate | sjansen: I think it would take Zombie Thomas Jefferson running for office before I was willing to get *that* involved in politics |
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| 20:08.45 | Migs | I'm confused. Why would this Linux script only loop through one line of the file it creates? http://pastebin.ca/2101999 |
| 20:09.27 | sontek | > vs >> |
| 20:10.39 | sontek | oh wait, nvm |
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| 20:12.12 | sontek | Migs: I just did it and it looped through all |
| 20:12.40 | sontek | You sure your find actually generates more than one line in the text file? |
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| 20:16.19 | Migs | yeah, I am |
| 20:16.25 | Migs | I'm thinking it's something with ffmpeg |
| 20:16.33 | Migs | like some "KILL ALL THE PROCESSES!" deal |
| 20:16.52 | Migs | that doesn't make sense, but it only converts one video then quits |
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| 20:21.16 | sontek | Migs: have you tried quoting the file names? Could be some weird names screwing the script up |
| 20:22.14 | vontrapp | why do the base64 step? |
| 20:22.18 | sontek | I would wrap your processing lines (the ffmpeg and mv) with echo and just look at the output |
| 20:23.32 | vontrapp | i have to change my password every 3 months, so i have my real password, and I concatenate it with the quarter (like 012012) and md5sum it and chop it just like that, but without base64 |
| 20:23.52 | sjansen | Or just "bash -x convert.sh" |
| 20:26.54 | eightyeight | vontrapp: base 64 gives you more entropy than base 16 |
| 20:27.01 | vontrapp | so the real reason i'm here: where's a good place in SLC to get wall plates and jacks, like perhaps keystone? |
| 20:28.03 | Gate | vontrapp: amazon prime ;) |
| 20:29.20 | vontrapp | well actually amazon doesn't have the greatest value on those things. I can get the keystone wallplate, for example, at home depot for $0.67, they go for $2 or so on amazon, *and* there's no instant gratification |
| 20:29.45 | vontrapp | i can also get rj45 keystone inserts at 10/$18 at home depot |
| 20:30.06 | vontrapp | alas, the RCA keystone jacks are outrageous at home depot, so i'm trying to expand my search |
| 20:30.32 | vontrapp | eightyeight: ah that makes sense |
| 20:30.47 | sjansen | monoprice.com? |
| 20:32.23 | sjansen | Migs: I rewrote your script hoping something would jump out at me: http://pastebin.ca/2102290 |
| 20:33.18 | sjansen | Unfortunately, nothing did. |
| 20:33.58 | sontek | I think one of his videos just have a weird name, your script will probably succeed |
| 20:33.59 | fozzmoo | deepsurplus is another good place for networking stuff. |
| 20:35.07 | vontrapp | what's migs' problem? |
| 20:36.06 | eightyeight | who knows |
| 20:36.16 | eightyeight | ツ |
| 20:37.29 | sjansen | Misbehaving shell script. No obvious problems other than not quoting variables. |
| 20:38.48 | sontek | well, he did call it a linux script, which could be a problem to those silly zsh users ;) |
| 20:40.14 | sjansen | isn't sure what sontek is getting at |
| 20:40.54 | sjansen | notes that zsh runs on Linux, and the BSDs are dying so it's unlikely many zsh users are on *BSD |
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| 20:41.49 | sontek | a bash script isn't a *linux* script, I though zsh handled stuff like ${file##*.} differently |
| 20:42.11 | eightyeight | notes the bsds have been dying for what, 20 years? that's a long death |
| 20:42.18 | vontrapp | i think the only reason that would break (sjansen's rewrite) is if a filename had a newline in it |
| 20:43.47 | sontek | eightyeight: well people keep saying this year is the year for linux desktop, but its been on my desktop for 10yrs so maybe life and death are hard to calculate :P |
| 20:44.01 | eightyeight | something |
| 20:44.09 | eightyeight | or ./ is still getting traffic |
| 20:44.15 | eightyeight | one or the other |
| 20:44.21 | sontek | Didn't cmdrtaco decide to finally get a new job? |
| 20:44.38 | sontek | http://techcrunch.com/2011/08/25/cmdrtaco-leaves-slashdot/ |
| 20:44.43 | sjansen | I don't think anyone is still talking about he Linux desktop. |
| 20:44.56 | sjansen | Except for maybe a few deranged Ubuntu users. |
| 20:45.42 | sjansen | Most people now realize that Linux will reign over mobile devices while the desktop becomes increasingly marginalized. |
| 20:47.19 | sjansen | vontrapp: My script should handle newlines in a filename no sweat. |
| 20:47.40 | sjansen | Oh, wait, n/m |
| 20:47.46 | sontek | your find wont |
| 20:48.31 | vontrapp | i'm deranged, and i use ubuntu, but i don't talk about the linux desktop, well, unless someone asks me about it |
| 20:50.33 | vontrapp | geez, why does it seem like I'm the only person who wants to send component+spdif? |
| 20:51.16 | sjansen | Because the rest of us have already upgraded to direct neural input. |
| 20:51.35 | vontrapp | then why do they send component+stereo? |
| 20:52.14 | sjansen | You haven't lived until you've experienced LoTR uploaded directly to your visual cortex. |
| 20:52.36 | vontrapp | with head-tracking? |
| 20:52.47 | vontrapp | if there's no head tracking, i'm not interested |
| 20:53.17 | sjansen | Well, we are limited by the constraints of the original recording. |
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| 21:25.30 | saturdayplace | Anyone know of a good place to get reliable salary numbers for the SL area tech scene? |
| 21:26.47 | sjansen | E-mail Plug. Tell everyone you're willing to pay $50 to each person that will show you a salary statement. |
| 21:29.13 | saturdayplace | Heh. |
| 21:29.14 | eightyeight | saturdayplace: http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-System-Administrator-l-Salt-Lake-City,-UT.html |
| 21:29.39 | saturdayplace | Oo, neat. |
| 21:29.45 | eightyeight | vary your search, for whatever you're looking for, of course |
| 21:30.10 | saturdayplace | Hm. According to this, http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Web+Developer&l1=Salt+Lake+City%2C+UT |
| 21:31.45 | eightyeight | interesting this is different: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Linux+System+Administrator&l1=Salt+Lake+City%2C+UT |
| 21:32.34 | saturdayplace | I had a guy tell me that the 70's was pretty high for a web dev position. Might've just been the position he was recruiting for though. |
| 21:32.54 | sjansen | Utah is notorious for cheapskate employers. |
| 21:33.31 | sjansen | Depending on the type of web dev, $70k is high. If all they're used to hiring is monkeys and college grads, they're right. |
| 21:33.57 | mahelious | web dev is a fairly broad description. css kiddies, javascript programmers and c# developers all fall into that. |
| 21:34.03 | saturdayplace | True |
| 21:35.16 | mahelious | of the few people ive actually talked to about, 70-80 seems to be the ceiling for development in utah |
| 21:35.36 | mahelious | anything higher usually requires some sort of manager position |
| 21:35.50 | saturdayplace | Ahh, yes, management |
| 21:35.54 | sjansen | Like I said, Utah is notorious for cheapskate employers. But if you can get in at a real IT company, pay will be better. |
| 21:36.00 | saturdayplace | That's probably what I'm running into. |
| 21:36.02 | resplin | The same job pays much different depending on whether you work for a company that only hires on the local market, or a company that is used to competing on the national market. Utah salaries are much lower than SF salaries for the same work. |
| 21:36.27 | mahelious | which is why adobe is so keen to pay...175% i think i heard? |
| 21:36.37 | resplin | Exactly. The most lucrative jobs seem to be with companies based outside of SLC. |
| 21:36.38 | mahelious | entry level developers are starting at 80k |
| 21:36.39 | saturdayplace | resplin: Well, sure, but even adjusted for cost of living? |
| 21:37.04 | resplin | saturdayplace: I'm recommending working from Utah for a company based somewhere else. |
| 21:37.13 | saturdayplace | Oh, I see. Non-locally-based companies hiring here. |
| 21:37.21 | resplin | Or finding a company that is competing for SF talent. |
| 21:37.23 | resplin | Or telecommute. |
| 21:38.00 | resplin | I can fly to the parent office once a month and still be making much more than if I worked for a Utah company. |
| 21:39.13 | saturdayplace | It does seem that 70-80 is the ceiling here |
| 21:39.25 | saturdayplace | From everyone I've talked to recently while looking. |
| 21:40.28 | saturdayplace | Do the Indeed numbers look pretty reasonable to folks here? |
| 21:43.31 | Migs | <sontek> well, he did call it a linux script, which could be a problem to those silly zsh users ;) <--- sorry, called it that because I also posted the question in #web, and not everyone there knows what a bash script is |
| 21:43.42 | Migs | sjansen: Thanks for the rewrite, though |
| 21:43.44 | sjansen | My first impression was that they were high but doable. |
| 21:43.48 | sontek | Migs: I was just playing around, we were talking about how many problems you have :D |
| 21:44.04 | Migs | oh gosh, don't get me started |
| 21:44.23 | Migs | My life is one giant problem |
| 21:44.52 | sjansen | waits for the obligatory 99 problems comment |
| 21:48.11 | Gate | LOL, my job title makes 35,000 more on average than I do in SLC |
| 21:49.25 | jima | my old job in msp was like that |
| 21:50.34 | sontek | yeah but SLC is so cheap to live, companies are ripping you off or anything |
| 21:51.37 | sontek | I could have made double my salary working in SF instead of SLC but my lifestyle would have been worse, I would've been living in a smaller house with a longer commute |
| 21:54.34 | mahelious | sontek: dont forget the swarms of militant hippies |
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| 21:57.43 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 21:58.29 | Gate | sontek: yeah, I don't live in SLC |
| 21:58.57 | Gate | it says that St. George has the same numbers, but there are maybe half a dozen people in the area with my job title |
| 21:59.02 | Gate | so I no longer believe that site |
| 22:00.31 | fadein | gag, what is a "Sharepoint Developer" anyway? |
| 22:00.51 | Gate | fadein: someone who's soul has been completely consumed by Microsoft |
| 22:01.39 | fadein | Gate: That's what I would have said about a WPF or other .NET dev |
| 22:02.00 | Gate | fadein: one more for the list |
| 22:02.02 | fadein | who'd want to spend their 40 hrs working on the steaming pile that is Sharepoint anyway? |
| 22:02.31 | Gate | fadein: sharepoint is Microsoft's team collaboration software, you can actually build quite a bit of functionality on to it if you were crazy enough |
| 22:03.12 | fadein | I'd dispute that Sharepoint helps any team collaborate. And you would have to be crazy to build on top of it |
| 22:03.21 | Gate | Agreed, and agreed |
| 22:03.24 | fadein | maybe we're just too cheap at my job to get the "good" functionality |
| 22:03.35 | Gate | I'm ashamed to say I've done some work with it, at a previous job |
| 22:03.43 | mahelious | at my last job one of my co-workers was responsible for sharepoint and whatever that new MS CMS |
| 22:03.50 | fadein | everything Sharepoint that I've seen just looks very half-assed |
| 22:04.01 | Gate | fadein: because sharepoint is half-assed |
| 22:04.20 | sontek | we had a pretty awesome sharepoint setup when I was living in SLC but half the functionality only worked in IE, so it was useless to most of us developers |
| 22:04.34 | sontek | but if you were willing to open it in IE it was pretty badass |
| 22:04.35 | mahelious | huh. i guess cms is part of sharepoint now. |
| 22:04.43 | saturdayplace | Gah. I actually had to get a MS certification for Sharepoint. |
| 22:04.44 | Gate | And I would presume that once you have spent a month getting the least functionality working you don't give a good god damn about how it looks |
| 22:04.46 | fadein | sontek: oh yeah, that brings me to my OTHER Sharepoint complaint |
| 22:04.46 | mahelious | it sucked his life out, anyhow |
| 22:04.57 | saturdayplace | For the company to maintaing its gold partner status. |
| 22:05.19 | saturdayplace | s/maintaining/maintain |
| 22:05.25 | fadein | saturdayplace: I think that's how we came by it. "Gold partner". Seems like MS gets the good end of that deal |
| 22:05.33 | saturdayplace | Seriously. |
| 22:06.09 | saturdayplace | There were exactly 0 objectives covered by the cert that I've run across in my activities as a (reluctant) sharepoint admin. |
| 22:06.34 | saturdayplace | The only people in the co who can stand sharepoint are the devs. Everyone else hates it. |
| 22:06.39 | saturdayplace | Including us in IT |
| 22:06.39 | mahelious | those were just to keep you busy while they ran off to see if the check cleared. |
| 22:06.48 | fadein | Yeah, so we're investing all of this time and energy to create a new WPF front-end for out app |
| 22:07.10 | fadein | (which is a vast improvement over the old windows-forms style we're coming from) |
| 22:07.21 | fadein | and then they go and throw out all of this Metro whiz-bangery |
| 22:07.40 | fadein | which is fine, that's their perrogative as the BDFL of everything |
| 22:07.59 | fadein | but I'm just wondering how long it will be until some PHB over here goes "hey, we need to get onto that Metro thingy" |
| 22:08.56 | mahelious | tell them you cant fully take advantage of Metro without a Surface |
| 22:09.05 | mahelious | then at least you get a new toy out of it |
| 22:09.12 | fadein | mahelious: lol |
| 22:09.28 | fadein | mahelious: if they listened to me, we'd be working on a Linux port! |
| 22:24.44 | sjansen | http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000339.html |
| 22:31.41 | fadein | sjansen: how'd you know? |
| 22:31.49 | Gate | saturdayplace: your devs can stand it?! |
| 22:33.05 | *** join/#utah craigj (~craig@neutroninteractive-xmission.xmission.com) |
| 22:42.51 | saturdayplace | Gate: They're the only ones who like it |
| 22:43.03 | saturdayplace | The rest of the company hates it. |
| 22:46.37 | saturdayplace | Man, Joel can write. I still remember reading Camels and Rubber Ducks the first time. |
| 22:47.14 | sontek | I always had a hard time taking advice from a guy whos company was using visual basic |
| 22:47.29 | saturdayplace | I don't believe I've ever laughed out loud when reading product pricing advice. |
| 22:47.30 | sontek | I know its a personal bias but I couldn't get over it |
| 22:47.52 | saturdayplace | meh. They guy makes money. His is definitely not the only way. |
| 22:47.54 | sontek | when they released trello they were actually proud to say there was no VB in it... 2011, shouldn't be proud of that |
| 22:48.01 | saturdayplace | s/They/the |
| 22:57.19 | sjansen | I've known a couple of very bright VB developers. Can't blame 'em for making a pragmatic choice, even if I wouldn't have had the stomach for it. |
| 23:03.17 | Gate | I've done VB (specifically VBScript) because I got hired and half the product was in it. Terrible little wretched language |
| 23:03.35 | Gate | But I could say similar things about PHP |
| 23:03.46 | sjansen | indeed |
| 23:03.52 | Gate | <3 ruby |
| 23:04.37 | saturdayplace | I keep thinking I ought to play with Ruby some more |
| 23:05.52 | Gate | fantastic language, its got its flaws, several of which are from giving the programmer *too* much power |
| 23:06.33 | Gate | But given the choice over any of the two dozen languages I have used to date, it would definitely win |
| 23:07.37 | sjansen | Ruby is a nice little language. |
| 23:08.14 | sontek | python is my home for at least the next couple years |
| 23:08.27 | saturdayplace | sontek: me too |
| 23:08.38 | Gate | I have a few.... disagreements with python. I used it for a few months but got fed up. |
| 23:08.49 | neybar | perl++ |
| 23:08.57 | sjansen | I loved using Ruby, but several factor pushed me to go mostly Python. |
| 23:09.53 | saturdayplace | sjansen: I'd like to hear them. |
| 23:11.45 | sjansen | It's a PITA that Ruby isn't installed on Linux by default. |
| 23:12.02 | saturdayplace | It can't be that hard to install? |
| 23:12.08 | sjansen | It's easier for my employer to find Python devs than Ruby devs. |
| 23:12.24 | sjansen | REXML really pissed me off. |
| 23:12.59 | sjansen | Python runs faster. (I hear 1.9 is a big improvement.) |
| 23:13.44 | sjansen | The Python community does a great job of encouraging clean code. |
| 23:13.51 | Gate | sjansen: 1.9 is a big improvement |
| 23:13.59 | Gate | sjansen: what were you trying to use REXML for? |
| 23:14.10 | sjansen | Red Hat's strong Python preference means a lot of interesting things are only available for C & Python. |
| 23:14.23 | Gate | I see |
| 23:14.30 | Gate | so you were doing IT work? Desktop app work? |
| 23:14.58 | sjansen | Gtk+ works _much_ better with Python than Ruby. |
| 23:15.09 | Gate | So desktop app work |
| 23:15.28 | sjansen | Nah, mostly sysadmin and document processing. |
| 23:16.12 | sjansen | saturdayplace: It's not hard to install, but since I'm often working with freshly installed machines it's annoying to constantly stop and add Ruby. |
| 23:19.00 | sjansen | Python docs are generally great. Ruby's docs have come a long way. |
| 23:25.05 | saturdayplace | Can any Math folks explain to me why the solution to http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100123221401AA7q4lR is true? I just started playing with project Euler. |
| 23:27.11 | Gate | saturdayplace: this is going to take a minute |
| 23:27.14 | mahelious | so its isolating primes and obtaining the product |
| 23:27.17 | mahelious | smart approach |
| 23:27.19 | Gate | yes |
| 23:29.01 | Gate | saturdayplace: take an example like "find the smallest common multiple of 4,5,6" |
| 23:29.16 | Gate | 4 = 2x2, 5 is prime, 6 = 3x2 |
| 23:29.42 | Gate | Look across all the prime factorizations and take the highest exponent from each prime factor |
| 23:29.48 | Gate | so 2x2, 5 and 3 |
| 23:29.58 | Gate | multiply those together and you have your answer |
| 23:30.20 | Gate | this works because it will have all the prime factorizations of all the numbers |
| 23:30.28 | Gate | therefore, it is a common multiple |
| 23:30.45 | Gate | saturdayplace: let me know if I am making any sense |
| 23:32.41 | saturdayplace | I just don't understand why multiplying the largest prime factor for each term gets the least common multiple of the terms. |
| 23:33.45 | Gate | Think of it like this, prime numbers are the building blocks of all the other numbers |
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| 23:34.20 | Gate | the least common multiple is the one which has all of the building blocks required to build each of the nubmers from the set |
| 23:35.20 | Gate | so the least common multiple of 2, 3 and 4 is 12, because 12 has 2^2x3 |
| 23:35.46 | saturdayplace | That one landed. |
| 23:35.49 | saturdayplace | THanks. |
| 23:35.51 | Gate | NP |
| 23:36.45 | fadein | Gate: that's right - the prime factorization of an integer is an example of an NP-hard problem, but I don't think that's what saturdayplace was asking about ;) |
| 23:37.03 | fadein | Gate: try not to confuse him |
| 23:37.15 | Gate | fadein: I didn't mention it. |
| 23:37.26 | fadein | NP |
| 23:37.39 | saturdayplace | :) |
| 23:37.40 | Gate | Frankly the brute force of that problem wouldn't be too severe in runtime, so who cares? |
| 23:38.17 | saturdayplace | My brute force is taking too long, which is to say, more than a couple seconds. |
| 23:38.32 | saturdayplace | I have a feeling I'm going to learn a lot of Math theory going through Euler. |
| 23:38.36 | Gate | hold on, I want to try a brute force for that real quick |
| 23:38.52 | Gate | saturdayplace: that site is how I taught myself python :) |
| 23:39.09 | saturdayplace | It's how I'm using Python to teach myself math! |
| 23:41.21 | Gate | At the time I was taking college class in Euclidean and non-Euclidean geometry. It was quite fun. |
| 23:42.40 | saturdayplace | I topped out at AP calc + 1 semester of calc in college. Then I bailed and went into Architecture. From which I later also bailed. |
| 23:43.07 | saturdayplace | :) |
| 23:43.09 | Gate | I took every math class I could get my hands on while going through CS in college |
| 23:43.36 | Gate | OK, yeah, the brute force method is slower than I had hoped |
| 23:43.42 | Gate | but its *really* short in ruby |
| 23:44.47 | sontek | saturdayplace: also check out interviewstreet, it has a lot of algorithms |
| 23:45.30 | sontek | my one regret from skipping out on college is how horrible I am at math now :P |
| 23:50.40 | jalbretsen | I know someone good at maths |
| 23:50.56 | jalbretsen | hint: not sjansen |
| 23:56.15 | sjansen | I abandoned project Euler 'cause I wanted coding challenges not math challenges. |