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| 16:54.36 | UriR | Any mormons here? |
| 16:54.50 | jima | ... |
| 16:55.12 | jsmith | UriR: Uh, yeah... there are quite a few... why? |
| 16:55.28 | jima | morbid curiosity? |
| 16:55.47 | jima | next he'll ask how many wives you guys have. |
| 16:56.00 | UriR | no |
| 16:56.12 | UriR | im not going to ask if you consider underwear holy either |
| 16:56.16 | jima | awww, only one misguided stereotype? |
| 16:56.27 | jima | what a rip-off :-( |
| 16:57.01 | UriR | do you all vote for romney? |
| 16:57.05 | goozbach | I am still trying to figure out why mormons can't send flowers |
| 16:57.15 | jima | thanks! i knew there was another one lurking under the surface. |
| 16:57.29 | jsmith | UriR: Here, I can answer that very easily: |
| 16:57.32 | jsmith | UriR: http://newsroom.lds.org/official-statement/political-neutrality |
| 16:57.43 | goozbach | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25PGOODs99o |
| 16:57.46 | jima | goozbach: because if you bring one, he'll drink all your beer? err, wait, wrong punchline. |
| 16:57.59 | goozbach | LLOL @ jima |
| 16:58.13 | goozbach | jima: I discoverd this weekend that joke works for babtists |
| 16:58.14 | jsmith | UriR: We're all encouraged to vote our conscience, but the church has a strict policy of political neutrality (as you'll see from that link) |
| 16:58.16 | goozbach | too |
| 16:58.33 | jima | goozbach: i had no idea. thanks for the info. |
| 16:59.44 | UriR | mormons are a majority in utah? |
| 16:59.55 | jsmith | UriR: Does that answer your question? |
| 17:00.28 | UriR | about romney, not really |
| 17:00.28 | jsmith | UriR: Probably so, but not all of them are the "attend church every week" type, just like you'd find with other religions |
| 17:00.40 | jima | UriR: i've heard the number 50% thrown around, but i'm not certain how accurate it is. |
| 17:01.30 | jsmith | Yeah, somewhere around 50 or 60 percent, more or less |
| 17:01.34 | jima | i can't deny that there's a lot of them, but it's not like they have a symbol tattooed on their foreheads or anything |
| 17:01.58 | neybar | just horns, but if they do their hair right you can barely tell |
| 17:02.24 | UriR | are there a lot of secular people? |
| 17:02.33 | jsmith | UriR: Just like anywhere else in America, of course. |
| 17:02.56 | jima | wait wait wait. jsmith, you're implying utah is a NORMAL PLACE? |
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| 17:02.59 | jsmith | UriR: I think you'd be surprised -- Mormons are a lot more mainstream than most outsiders give them credit for. |
| 17:03.10 | UriR | Hmmm. |
| 17:03.24 | UriR | Maybe in utah |
| 17:03.31 | UriR | but over here its marginal and considered accentric |
| 17:03.50 | jima | i have to agree with jsmith. when most people heard i was moving to slc, they were all "ZOMG MORMONS" |
| 17:04.05 | UriR | well |
| 17:04.05 | goozbach | UriR: where is 'here'? |
| 17:04.11 | UriR | utah is synonym with mormonism |
| 17:04.11 | jima | .il? |
| 17:04.17 | UriR | the holy land |
| 17:04.21 | UriR | not utah |
| 17:04.22 | goozbach | the culture in Utah is interesting to say the least |
| 17:04.39 | jsmith | Now, I'll admit up front that I consider myself a fairly devout Mormon, but there are things with the Utah culture that rub me the wrong way |
| 17:04.43 | jima | UriR: it's really not as big of a deal as most people (in .us, anyway) i've talked to seem to think |
| 17:05.00 | goozbach | but that could be said for anywhere different from your definition of 'normal' |
| 17:05.10 | jima | yep. |
| 17:05.22 | jima | <-- not religious in the least |
| 17:05.32 | UriR | the greek parable of the cave |
| 17:05.35 | UriR | ever heard of it? |
| 17:05.51 | jsmith | That being said, when people see how I live, I don't think they seem me as eccentric because of my beliefs |
| 17:05.55 | UriR | thats just like a person born amish wouldnt know any other existence and thus it would appear normal |
| 17:06.08 | jsmith | (They wonder why I don't smoke or drink alcohol, but accept that and move on) |
| 17:06.12 | UriR | or a bushman in the savannah |
| 17:07.20 | UriR | Are you allowed to marry outside the church or is that something they frown upon |
| 17:07.32 | UriR | basically marriage to a person who is not a mormon |
| 17:07.40 | jima | jsmith: i don't really see not smoking/not drinking as that unusual...it's when you get into the coffee/soda subject it gets a little...not quite alienating, but in that direction. |
| 17:08.13 | jsmith | jima: Sure... every religion has its quirks -- drinking, dancing, snake-handling, food products, rituals -- that sort of thing |
| 17:08.20 | jima | yep |
| 17:08.28 | goozbach | UriR: you're free to marry how you choose |
| 17:08.32 | neybar | I'm not sure "frowned apon" is the right terminology. No on is going to punish you, how ever there *might* be some social dissapointment. Does that make sense? |
| 17:08.38 | jima | it's really no more hardline than pork is to some religions. |
| 17:08.48 | goozbach | if you choose to marry someone not of the faith you are choosing not to be married in the mormon temple |
| 17:09.24 | UriR | would that alienate you from the rest of the community ? |
| 17:09.34 | goozbach | UriR: in some circles, sadly yes |
| 17:09.48 | jima | that's hardly unique to the mormon church. |
| 17:10.12 | UriR | ok |
| 17:10.14 | UriR | lets back up a bit |
| 17:10.14 | jima | lots of cultures frown upon marrying outside the culture. |
| 17:10.22 | neybar | but that is still more social pressure than actual religious decree. You are supposed to love everyone unconditionally? however sometimes humans have a hard time with that. |
| 17:10.38 | UriR | mormon faith values the entire bible which is the old and the new testement, and ontop of that what other writs do you consider holy? |
| 17:11.12 | jsmith | UriR: We have the "Book of Mormon", a book of scripture from the ancient Americas that also testifies of Christ |
| 17:11.45 | jsmith | UriR: We also consider some of the writings of modern-day prophets to be holy |
| 17:11.46 | UriR | And which book do you study the most? |
| 17:11.51 | UriR | the book of mormons or the bible? |
| 17:12.56 | jsmith | UriR: We study both, and treat them more or less equally in our studies. |
| 17:13.01 | Jayce^ | both/all |
| 17:13.04 | jima | it's "Book of Mormon." "Book of Mormons" is the slc telephone directory. |
| 17:13.13 | UriR | lol |
| 17:13.14 | UriR | ok |
| 17:13.17 | jsmith | Books of Mormon, to be technically correct :-p |
| 17:13.24 | jima | (sorry, couldn't resist) |
| 17:13.27 | jsmith | But we call it all kinds of things :-p |
| 17:13.35 | UriR | So on sunday church gatherings |
| 17:13.39 | UriR | what do you usually read? |
| 17:13.51 | Jayce^ | UriR: all of the above.. |
| 17:14.02 | UriR | I see. |
| 17:14.09 | Jayce^ | everything you read you cross-reference, etc.. one must support the other |
| 17:14.23 | UriR | And what is your tradition around this book? |
| 17:14.27 | neybar | we usually don't do readings. We do more topical studies, and pull material from all the manuscripts. |
| 17:14.28 | goozbach | UriR: we're studied the new testament in sunday school last year, this year it's the book of mormon |
| 17:14.52 | UriR | I mean the book of mormon, what is your tradition about its origin? |
| 17:16.11 | jsmith | UriR: The story starts with a man named Nephi, who lived in Jerusalem about 600BC |
| 17:16.13 | goozbach | UriR: http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/bofm-title?lang=eng |
| 17:16.30 | jsmith | UriR: His father was told in a vision to leave Jerusalem, that it was going to be destroyed. |
| 17:16.31 | neybar | ^ read that |
| 17:16.36 | goozbach | and http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/introduction?lang=eng |
| 17:17.01 | jsmith | UriR: Long story short, the family made their way to the Americas, and prophets were called just like in the holy land. |
| 17:17.56 | UriR | oh wow |
| 17:17.58 | UriR | that i didnt know |
| 17:18.29 | UriR | so do you consider the americas as the "holy land" |
| 17:19.35 | jsmith | UriR: Not exactly, but we consider that prophets were called by God here, just like they were in the Holy Land. |
| 17:20.03 | goozbach | UriR: you'll hear the americas called the 'promised land' occasionally |
| 17:20.04 | UriR | so this guys family are the native americans? |
| 17:20.33 | Jayce^ | "primary anceastors" |
| 17:20.36 | jsmith | UriR: More or less, yes. There were different tribes, and some of them were killed off |
| 17:20.49 | Jayce^ | not /only/ |
| 17:21.15 | UriR | interesting story |
| 17:22.27 | UriR | can you all read hebrew? |
| 17:22.31 | jsmith | can't |
| 17:22.39 | UriR | is it common around mormons? |
| 17:22.44 | jsmith | No |
| 17:22.48 | neybar | I wouldn't think so. |
| 17:22.55 | jsmith | At least not Mormons here in the USA |
| 17:23.05 | UriR | there are mormons outside the US? |
| 17:23.10 | UriR | like where? |
| 17:23.31 | neybar | it is a world wide religion |
| 17:23.40 | UriR | Is it because of missionaries? |
| 17:23.43 | Jayce^ | UriR: only 1/2 the membership is in the US |
| 17:24.01 | UriR | people sent by the church specifically to spread mormonism around the globe? |
| 17:24.01 | jima | http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/temples/ |
| 17:24.05 | brac | [LDS (Mormon) Temples] |
| 17:24.18 | jima | ^ yes, a worldwide religion |
| 17:24.46 | jima | (and that's full-out temples, not run-of-the-mill churches) |
| 17:25.22 | UriR | seems mostly south america |
| 17:25.42 | UriR | how many followers are there, globally? |
| 17:25.47 | neybar | my father lives in jerusalem, and attends mormon services there. |
| 17:25.54 | UriR | really? |
| 17:26.01 | UriR | I'm from israel, i never knew there were mormons here |
| 17:26.06 | UriR | must be extremely small church |
| 17:26.24 | UriR | but im not surprised |
| 17:26.32 | UriR | there are all sorts of sects and churches in jerusalem |
| 17:27.13 | jsmith | UriR: Last I heard, there are about 14 million Mormons throughout the world |
| 17:27.31 | UriR | lots of mormons |
| 17:27.34 | UriR | i think more than jews |
| 17:27.41 | UriR | maybe not |
| 17:27.43 | Jayce^ | my in-laws were even able to attend some services when they lived in Saudi Arabia (though very limited) |
| 17:27.50 | UriR | woha |
| 17:28.10 | neybar | same in both Jordan and Egypt (my father is military) |
| 17:28.10 | UriR | That is pretty wild |
| 17:28.25 | UriR | american troops in jordan and egypt?! |
| 17:28.35 | neybar | attached to embassys |
| 17:28.38 | Jayce^ | right now Africa is the highest growth area for the church |
| 17:29.32 | UriR | whats with the word mormon itself |
| 17:29.37 | UriR | whats the etymology on it |
| 17:31.05 | UriR | Found it |
| 17:31.29 | Jayce^ | :) was going to post a link :) |
| 17:31.38 | neybar | Mormon was an ancient historian. He compiled the stories and histories that are in the Book of Mormon. |
| 17:31.47 | UriR | This is what i find: '1830, coined by religion founder Joseph Smith (1805-1844) in Seneca County, N.Y., in allusion to Mormon, supposed prophet and author of "The Book of Mormon," explained by Smith as meaning more mon, from English more + Egyptian mon "good' |
| 17:31.54 | UriR | It might be offensive for mormons |
| 17:32.35 | UriR | So this guy is considered a prophet? |
| 17:32.43 | neybar | I don't have any particular problem with that? I didn't actually know about the 'more good' meaning though :) |
| 17:33.06 | Jayce^ | yeah, prophet, say similar to John, Elijah, etc.. |
| 17:33.13 | Jayce^ | ancient times |
| 17:33.38 | UriR | more mon , more good |
| 17:33.39 | UriR | better |
| 17:33.57 | UriR | is there a view of the chosen people in mormonism? |
| 17:34.32 | UriR | viewing yourself as the chosen people elected to salavage this world ? |
| 17:35.23 | UriR | much like judaism in that respect. |
| 17:35.59 | Jayce^ | partially, but not by genetic inheritence, but by choice of belief. All /can/ be members.. |
| 17:36.17 | UriR | yeah |
| 17:36.21 | UriR | in judaism you can convert too |
| 17:36.30 | UriR | but its painful process and probably 99% fail |
| 17:36.35 | Jayce^ | yeah |
| 17:36.42 | UriR | long and exhausting process which is almost impossible |
| 17:36.53 | UriR | because you have to observe all 613 commandments |
| 17:37.00 | UriR | which very few people in israel actually do |
| 17:37.12 | UriR | because its impossible |
| 17:37.23 | UriR | if you know some of these commandments youd know how hard it is |
| 17:37.39 | Jayce^ | yeah.. no bacon, that'd kick me out right there :-p |
| 17:40.57 | UriR | thats probably the easiest one |
| 17:41.14 | UriR | no milk products mixed with any kind of meat |
| 17:41.25 | *** part/#utah pdayton (~Adium@199.188.28.9) |
| 17:41.30 | UriR | and you have to way several hours between milk consumption and meat consumption and vice versa |
| 17:41.35 | UriR | and thats just the tip of the iceberg |
| 17:41.41 | UriR | s/way/wiat |
| 17:41.42 | UriR | wait |
| 17:41.45 | Jayce^ | yeah, that's a rather annoying part of kosher food for me |
| 17:41.59 | Jayce^ | Love to put cheese on my pastrami sammich |
| 17:42.42 | UriR | they dont use electricity on saturday |
| 17:43.24 | UriR | and some of them ban tvs and internet access from their houses |
| 17:43.52 | UriR | lots of laws to live by |
| 17:43.58 | UriR | so its virtually impossible to convet |
| 17:44.01 | UriR | convert |
| 17:44.18 | Jayce^ | yeah, one of the best camera gear shops online closes the site on friday sundown for that reason |
| 17:44.28 | Jayce^ | doesn't even run the automated part of the site |
| 17:44.35 | jsmith | has seen a few friends convert away from Judaism, but hasn't known anyone who has converted to it |
| 17:45.06 | goozbach | all I know of is blossom's husband converted to it from mormonisim |
| 17:45.31 | UriR | not to mention the C-word |
| 17:45.31 | neybar | blossom? |
| 17:45.34 | UriR | they have to go through |
| 17:45.44 | UriR | which I dont think mormons go through |
| 17:46.02 | UriR | circumcision |
| 17:46.23 | UriR | not an easy thought to bear |
| 17:46.45 | jsmith | UriR: Many people are circumcised for health reasons, not religious reasons |
| 17:46.58 | UriR | what kind of health reasons? |
| 17:47.24 | UriR | I think most of it is invented stuff to rationalize the religious motifs |
| 17:47.37 | jsmith | Easier to keep parts clean, apparently |
| 17:47.55 | UriR | only if you never learned how to bath |
| 17:48.00 | neybar | lol |
| 17:48.00 | UriR | properly |
| 17:48.31 | jsmith | It's probably more information that most people want to know about me, but it happened when I was so young that I never had to worry about it |
| 17:48.41 | UriR | me too |
| 17:48.43 | UriR | im jewish |
| 17:48.51 | UriR | so its customary to do it on the 8th day |
| 17:48.58 | UriR | i dont remember anything from being 8 days old |
| 17:49.05 | UriR | but still, im sure it was painful |
| 17:49.15 | jsmith | With my son, they did it within a few hours of him being born |
| 17:49.29 | UriR | muslims do it when they are 13 years old |
| 17:49.31 | UriR | thats scary |
| 17:49.35 | UriR | because they definitely remember it |
| 17:50.40 | stderr- | nah, Muslims do it at all sorts of ages, if they do it alt all |
| 17:51.23 | stderr- | it's not as big a deal to muslims as it is to jews. |
| 17:53.19 | UriR | some muslims definitely do it at age 13 |
| 17:53.28 | UriR | i cant even imagine how horrible of a memory it must be |
| 17:53.44 | stderr- | I'm sure some do. |
| 17:54.41 | neybar | I'm sure it's like most horrible things. Memory fades after a while. |
| 17:55.33 | goozbach | neybar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayim_Bialik |
| 17:55.44 | goozbach | specifically http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayim_Bialik#Personal_life |
| 17:56.45 | UriR | bialik :D |
| 17:57.01 | UriR | bialik is the most famous hebrew poet of our nation probably |
| 17:57.21 | UriR | I wonder if there is any relation |
| 17:58.45 | UriR | ha |
| 17:58.45 | UriR | from wiki: "Hayim Nahman Bialik, Israel's national poet, was Mayim Bialik's great-great-grandfather's uncle.[21]" |
| 17:58.45 | UriR | wow |
| 17:58.45 | UriR | its royal family |
| 18:00.45 | UriR | btw |
| 18:00.48 | UriR | mayim in hebrew means water |
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| 18:03.23 | UriR | oh wow |
| 18:03.32 | UriR | her husband was a mormon who converted to judaism? |
| 18:03.41 | goozbach | UriR: that's what I said |
| 18:03.42 | UriR | thats not typical is it? |
| 18:03.50 | goozbach | *shrug* |
| 18:04.38 | UriR | her grea great great grandfathers uncle was bialik |
| 18:04.42 | UriR | thats all i care about really |
| 18:06.27 | UriR | Not sure how exactly he converted goozbach |
| 18:06.53 | UriR | but being accepted by the reform community is not always equal to being accepted by the devout religious jewish communities |
| 18:07.06 | UriR | one might be considered a jew by the former but still not a jew according to the latter |
| 18:07.31 | UriR | especially here in israel |
| 18:08.21 | UriR | cause they are really picky and uninviting like that :D |
| 18:08.59 | UriR | btw - are you guys born mormon or do you have to go through some initiation ceremony to be officially considered a member of the community? |
| 18:10.31 | jsmith | UriR: To become a Mormon, you become baptized and confirmed. |
| 18:10.38 | neybar | sort of? you can be born into a family that is mormon obviously. But everyone has to be baptised. |
| 18:10.58 | neybar | that happens at age 8, or at what ever age you convert at. |
| 18:11.03 | resplin | UriR: The Mormon church is officially called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We run a couple of Universities, one of which has a big center in Jerusalem |
| 18:11.05 | resplin | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigham_Young_University_Jerusalem_Center |
| 18:11.40 | resplin | What part of Israel do you live in? |
| 18:11.43 | UriR | ahh |
| 18:11.49 | UriR | thats close to the hebrew university |
| 18:11.52 | UriR | im in tel aviv |
| 18:12.15 | UriR | dont worry im not going to convert anytime soon :D |
| 18:12.34 | UriR | its more likely that ill convince you to tattoo 666 on your forehead than you;ll convice me to convert |
| 18:12.36 | UriR | :D |
| 18:13.14 | neybar | heh |
| 18:13.34 | resplin | There is a small congregation in Tel Aviv, but the address isn't online. Just the phone number of the local leader. |
| 18:13.47 | resplin | It's not a matter of convincing anyone to convert, but it is a convenient place to get your questions answered. |
| 18:13.55 | resplin | Always fun to learn about a different group. |
| 18:14.08 | UriR | yes thats why im asking these questions here |
| 18:14.36 | UriR | is polygmy really legitimate in mormonism? |
| 18:14.48 | resplin | It used to be. Hasn't been part of mainstream mormonism for 100 years. |
| 18:15.00 | UriR | aha |
| 18:15.16 | UriR | its still costumary in some arabic groups |
| 18:15.26 | UriR | bedouyns have couple of wifes |
| 18:15.50 | UriR | wives |
| 18:16.12 | UriR | do mormons have large families usually? |
| 18:16.19 | UriR | jewish religious people have extremely large families |
| 18:16.24 | UriR | its one of the commandments |
| 18:16.34 | UriR | to breed |
| 18:16.51 | jsmith | UriR: Larger than the average US family, probably... but it really depends on the family |
| 18:17.50 | jsmith | There's no one "cookie-cutter" size for a Mormon family |
| 18:17.54 | UriR | is it not common to see families with 7-8+ kids? |
| 18:17.55 | jsmith | Some are larger, some are smaller |
| 18:18.23 | jsmith | UriR: It's not uncommon to see families that big, but not super-common either. |
| 18:18.35 | jsmith | If I had to guess, the average Mormon family I know probably has four or five kids |
| 18:18.41 | jsmith | only has two kids |
| 18:18.43 | UriR | its really common in some places here where the ultra religious live |
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| 18:18.57 | UriR | its like 3rd world with no birth control |
| 18:19.01 | UriR | they hate birth control |
| 18:19.04 | UriR | they think its a sin |
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| 18:52.02 | UriR | that place in jerusalem is one of the most beautiful locations in the world |
| 18:52.17 | UriR | beautifully situatied |
| 18:52.19 | UriR | situated |
| 18:53.10 | UriR | resplin have you ever been there? |
| 18:59.43 | resplin | UriR: I have never been there. My sister spent a year there. I would love to go one day. |
| 19:00.33 | resplin | That wikipedia page has an interesting history about the construction. In order for us to get permission to build it, we had to agree not to formally proselyte to Jews in the state of Isreal. |
| 19:06.56 | Sargun_Screen | o.O |
| 19:07.01 | Sargun_Screen | That was a bit surreal. |
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| 19:22.14 | unum | mmm scott adams is running for president |
| 19:22.23 | unum | I don't know that I actually agree with him on much |
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| 19:27.52 | Sargun_Screen | unum: It's a PR stunt. |
| 19:28.32 | unum | Sargun_Screen: sure, whatever |
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| 19:35.44 | saturdayplace | Looking at a font-end web dev job working with XML, XPATH, and XQUERY. Is this just how Enterprise does things? |
| 19:46.44 | fozzmoo | That's how Enterprise used to do this. |
| 19:46.46 | fozzmoo | things. |
| 19:46.59 | fozzmoo | Now it's JSON and sometimes YAML. :) |
| 19:48.33 | saturdayplace | So, taking this gig would put me in old tech? |
| 19:48.46 | saturdayplace | Not that it's even been offered to me :) |
| 19:53.51 | jima | i've seen some XMLRPC stuff in an enterprise |
| 19:56.10 | sjansen | saturdayplace: s/old/established/ |
| 19:57.21 | sjansen | XML is just plain better for somethings. There's a lot of tools built around it. In the right situation, xpath and xguery are quite useful. |
| 19:57.50 | sjansen | XMLRPC... at least it's not SOAP and WS-maddness. |
| 19:58.14 | saturdayplace | shivers |
| 19:58.29 | saturdayplace | SOAP. I had a visceral reaction to that. |
| 19:59.00 | jima | common with geeks |
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| 20:37.36 | sjansen | ~lart word processors |
| 20:37.36 | ibot | rm -rf's word processors |
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| 21:21.42 | rsimpkins | Choosing political candidates based on the quality of their haircut is a time-honored American tradition. |
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| 21:24.37 | macnewbold | so who would that favor in the current election? |
| 21:24.46 | macnewbold | s/current/upcoming presidential/ |
| 21:25.22 | sjansen | I favor Professor Xavier, but I'm biased. |
| 21:25.32 | rsimpkins | He has no hair. Instant disqual. |
| 21:26.05 | rsimpkins | Santorum has some pretty nice hair. |
| 21:26.26 | sjansen | rsimpkins: I'm offended by your hairism. I thought you were more evolved than that. |
| 21:26.41 | shalkie | But then I have to endure more "Surging" of "Santorum"... |
| 21:29.03 | rsimpkins | McMillan for president. Any guy with a cool beard gets major bonus points. |
| 21:29.38 | shalkie | I was impressed with Ron Pauls results in Iowa. |
| 21:32.17 | rsimpkins | I'd be glad with Ron Paul if he wasn't trying to push a religious agenda. |
| 21:32.30 | rsimpkins | But then, nearly every GOP candidate has a religious agenda. |
| 21:33.24 | rsimpkins | It'd be great to see a democrat run with a religiously motivated agenda as strong as a GOP candidate. |
| 21:33.33 | rsimpkins | Need some contrast. |
| 21:34.41 | rsimpkins | Maybe Obama should announce that he'll fight for a constitutional amendment requiring all students to recieve religious education from four major national religions. |
| 21:34.53 | rsimpkins | Nah, not extreme enough. |
| 21:35.20 | rsimpkins | Ideas? |
| 21:39.34 | fungus | lol, I still can't stop from gagging/giggling when I hear "santorum". |
| 21:39.39 | fungus | ~google santorum |
| 21:41.37 | JoshH | rsimpkins: that's why religious people like republicans |
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| 21:41.47 | JoshH | it seems that religious people who don't want a religious agenda are a minority |
| 21:42.08 | sjansen | Now that's a loaded claim. Depends on your definition of "religious". |
| 21:42.56 | sjansen | If by religious you mean "eager to force ones views on everyone else" then I'll agree. |
| 21:43.09 | rsimpkins | ^^ This. |
| 21:43.49 | rsimpkins | It is okay to have strong convictions. Turning those convictions in to laws that affect plenty of people who disagree with you... that's the issue. |
| 21:43.51 | sjansen | If by religious you mean "having faith in a higher power to guide their lives" then I'm going to have to disagree. |
| 21:44.17 | stderr- | there are plenty of religious people who vote for progressive candidates |
| 21:44.44 | sjansen | There are plenty of religious people who don't feel a need to force their views on others. Pretty much by definition they tend to be less vocal. |
| 21:44.45 | rsimpkins | Well, you'd guess so. With something like 90%+ of the voters claiming some religious belief. |
| 21:46.37 | stderr- | I'm |
| 21:46.52 | stderr- | amazed at how Santorum rebounded/surged, even if it is the Iowa caucus |
| 21:47.03 | rsimpkins | Did you see which counties he took? |
| 21:47.06 | stderr- | it's hard to imagine someone voting for him with a straight face |
| 21:47.07 | rsimpkins | pretty telling. |
| 21:47.28 | sjansen | s/surged/appeared from practically nowhere/ |
| 21:48.02 | pdayton | Romney has not sealed the deal with republican voters |
| 21:48.27 | pdayton | this sort of extreme volatility is just not common in the GOP |
| 21:48.28 | rsimpkins | pdayton: He has nice hair. He'll get far. |
| 21:48.50 | JoshH | sjansen: when it comes to politics, it's easy to think most religious people are the former heh |
| 21:49.03 | rsimpkins | JoshH: Former what? |
| 21:49.13 | JoshH | actually i meant latter |
| 21:49.14 | JoshH | i think |
| 21:49.21 | stderr- | JoshH: well that's because the GOP panders to them more |
| 21:49.39 | JoshH | ya |
| 21:49.57 | JoshH | somebody has to represent the people who want to force religion on everyone, and it's the gop |
| 21:50.06 | JoshH | and there are quite a few of them |
| 21:50.19 | rsimpkins | Is it all of the GOP, or a sub-section of people who are in the GOP? |
| 21:50.26 | stderr- | I truly doubt the GOP cares that much about religion, they just use it as a tool |
| 21:50.49 | stderr- | Reagan proved he could take the blue collar religious types (neoconservatives) from the Democrats in the 80s, that's been the GOP blueprint since then. |
| 21:51.03 | JoshH | looks at the warm beer piled on the floor at the liquor store and grumbles about religious people |
| 21:51.56 | stderr- | I'm just surprised that a Catholic took the evangelicals of Iowa like that, even if Santorum is extremely conservative. |
| 21:52.55 | JoshH | im surprised people still care what happens at the iowa caucus |
| 21:53.01 | JoshH | how often does the eventual nominee win there? |
| 21:53.21 | stderr- | it's a mixed bag |
| 21:53.37 | stderr- | if Romney takes New Hampshire though it's going to be hard to stop him. |
| 21:53.42 | JoshH | ya |
| 21:53.49 | JoshH | romney is going to be the nominee for sure imo |
| 21:54.02 | sjansen | The Iowa caucus is interesting because it has the potential to make candidates realize they're doomed. |
| 21:54.04 | rsimpkins | I think he has a really good shot at it, and I think he'd do an OK job. |
| 21:54.08 | JoshH | it's amazing how he doesn't even seem that bad compared to the other republicans |
| 21:54.21 | sjansen | For example, hopefully that's the message Rick Perry got. |
| 21:54.41 | stderr- | sjansen: I would've bet so much money Rick Perry would've performed better in Iowa |
| 21:54.52 | stderr- | but yea Romney won't be horrible |
| 21:55.34 | JoshH | well, at this point even stupid people think that rick perry is a moron |
| 21:56.15 | stderr- | a Paul vs Obama general election would be pretty awesome to watch |
| 21:57.25 | sjansen | Not that it matters since I live in Utah, but Obama just lost alot of my support by signing the NDAA. |
| 21:57.58 | sjansen | I'm almost disgusted enough to back Ron Paul instead. Almost. |
| 21:58.11 | stderr- | What's your problem with the NDAA? |
| 21:58.23 | stderr- | rubs his hands together |
| 21:59.20 | stderr- | my biggest gripe with it would be subtitle D, sections 1026-1028. |
| 21:59.27 | stderr- | (not the sections that've been overblown in the media, to be sure) |
| 21:59.50 | sjansen | Overblown? |
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| 22:00.10 | stderr- | Yea. |
| 22:00.12 | stderr- | Explain. |
| 22:00.43 | stderr- | you realize the applicability of AUMF and how the particular sections of the NDAA codified and limited it, right? |
| 22:01.02 | rsimpkins | Only 565 pages long!? Why, this is quite a simple thing isn't it? |
| 22:01.26 | jima | thank goodness, yes. |
| 22:03.22 | rsimpkins | stderr-: You have an issue with where these guys are kept, and how they are released? |
| 22:04.00 | sjansen | Oh nice, 1026-1028 continue to make it almost impossible to close Guantanamo. |
| 22:04.30 | JoshH | to be fair, i can't imagine any president not signing that these days. |
| 22:04.40 | stderr- | sjansen: correct. |
| 22:04.42 | JoshH | we're not going to get some president who always chooses the right thing |
| 22:04.55 | stderr- | rsimpkins: it's not simple. The NDAA is the annual bill that funds the military. |
| 22:05.04 | stderr- | And makes new regulations on the Department of Defense. |
| 22:05.26 | stderr- | For example, the NDAA has some new stipulations on rape reporting and investigation of female military members that has been needed for quite a long time. |
| 22:05.31 | rsimpkins | So, you'd like to see the facility shut down? |
| 22:05.47 | stderr- | Gitmo? yes, I'd like to see terrorists tried in civilian courts stateside. |
| 22:07.27 | stderr- | here's a good rundown of the NDAA from the perspective of detentions and enemy combatant / terrorist treatment http://www.lawfareblog.com/2011/12/the-ndaa-the-good-the-bad-and-the-laws-of-war-part-i/ |
| 22:07.37 | fungus | No kidding. It could be televised and would have millions of viewers |
| 22:08.14 | JoshH | i don't even have a problem with terrorists being tried by the military, as long as they are at least tried somehow and either punished or let go |
| 22:08.34 | JoshH | the whole indefinite thing even if you were just ratted out by your neighbor and are innocent is what's wrong |
| 22:08.59 | stderr- | which is defined where? |
| 22:09.11 | stderr- | You realize that the NDAA has limited the scope of AUMF considerably, correct? |
| 22:09.19 | JoshH | and the fact that we ban cuban cigars because they are commies even though china is our most important trading partner, yet we use their country as a holding ground for terrorists |
| 22:09.34 | stderr- | The Supreme Court interpreted AUMF pretty broadly in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld |
| 22:09.38 | stderr- | and the wording was quite Orwellian |
| 22:09.48 | JoshH | let's have a silly embargo on those commies, but still use their land for our shady torture stuff |
| 22:10.22 | JoshH | if we're gonna have a gitmo at least be honest about it and have it at a normal base |
| 22:10.24 | stderr- | The Obama Administration lobbied for a long time to get a lot of the NDAA codification of the implied powers supplied by AUMF limited to as much extent as they could |
| 22:10.40 | stderr- | fighting against the House the entire time |
| 22:11.40 | JoshH | ya, obama certainly shouldn't be the main target for blame on it |
| 22:12.02 | stderr- | Don't get me wrong, I still disagree with resultant legislation in NDAA |
| 22:12.17 | JoshH | though nobody is ever impressed by his "fighting" against the house or republicans in general |
| 22:12.19 | stderr- | but he actually _limited_ detentions as they were empowered by AUMF. He didn't extend them. |
| 22:14.28 | stderr- | Either way, both AUMF nor the NDAA allow for any of those sections to apply to American citizens, as I've had to argue against for the past month. |
| 22:14.40 | stderr- | do not allow* |
| 22:14.55 | stderr- | or, rather, s/both/neither |
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