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| 15:21.59 | jima | i'd be sorely tempted to go after that sysadmin job if i hadn't hopped jobs ~4 months ago. |
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| 17:34.50 | programmerq | anyone know of a CS program (online or utah-based) that doesn't have any windows requirements? |
| 17:35.16 | programmerq | stevens henager would fit the bill, except it was Java and C# |
| 17:35.25 | programmerq | not really interested in doing anything with C# |
| 17:35.26 | programmerq | :/ |
| 17:36.06 | JoshH | does stevens henager count as cs? |
| 17:37.05 | programmerq | that's probably a good question. :) |
| 17:37.13 | jsmith | programmerq: When I was at Utah State, we weren't required to use Windows. |
| 17:37.27 | jima | mono? (yes, that was a joke. sorry.) |
| 17:37.33 | jsmith | programmerq: It was C and C++ at the time, and I did most of my programming in Unix or Linux |
| 17:37.38 | sjansen | I made it though my BYU CS degree without ever worrying about Windows. |
| 17:37.48 | programmerq | yeah, BYU CS would work |
| 17:38.00 | JoshH | at byu windows would be the least of your worries |
| 17:38.04 | programmerq | I just had a really bad experiance with BYU math |
| 17:38.14 | programmerq | (which is why I'm no longer there) |
| 17:38.19 | jsmith | It's math -- it's not supposed to be a walk in the park |
| 17:38.26 | jsmith | ducks and hides |
| 17:38.32 | sjansen | I hear Utah State has a pretty good CS program. |
| 17:38.47 | programmerq | yeah, but I'm not a Math major either-- you can do math without having to live breathe and bleed it. |
| 17:38.55 | jsmith | sjansen: It does, and so does the U of U |
| 17:39.01 | JoshH | aren't most cs's using mostly python or java these days? |
| 17:39.13 | sjansen | The UofU CS program used to one the top in the nation. But that was decades ago. Don't know if it's as good today. |
| 17:39.14 | jsmith | sjansen: (In fact, most of the CS professors I had at the U were top-notch) |
| 17:39.39 | jsmith | took a bunch of CS classes at the U and transferred the credits back to USU |
| 17:41.44 | Migs | The U of U CS program is still considered great |
| 17:41.54 | Migs | Weber State was rather disappointing, though |
| 17:41.59 | Migs | in hindsight, that is |
| 17:42.25 | Migs | when I was there it was severely underfunded |
| 17:43.13 | Migs | If I were doing a CS degree now, I'd do it online |
| 17:43.22 | jsmith | wouldn't |
| 17:43.45 | Migs | I don't think I could ever go back to a brick-and-mortar classroom, actually |
| 17:43.53 | Migs | I've had too great an experience in my online masters program |
| 17:44.01 | sjansen | Doesn't USU have an online CS program? |
| 17:44.29 | jsmith | Do they? |
| 17:44.30 | JoshH | personally i'm still skeptical of online only courses for complex subjects |
| 17:44.50 | JoshH | but if you never needed to ask questions or anything in person i guess it could work |
| 17:45.07 | Migs | what makes you think you can't ask for help in an online course? |
| 17:45.21 | JoshH | of course, i learned almost everything i know online |
| 17:45.21 | Migs | if anything, I've found the range of one-on-one assistance is better online than face-to-face |
| 17:45.39 | Migs | not only do you get the teacher's attention, you get every classmate helping you out, too |
| 17:46.25 | JoshH | i dunno, i'm kind of old fashioned, and like the idea of people talking to each other in the same room |
| 17:46.42 | Migs | and you're not confined to only being able to talk to the teacher at the school. You can IM them or call them on their cell at any time...brick-and-mortar teachers are less likely to give out those |
| 17:47.18 | sjansen | Looks like I was wrong: http://distance.usu.edu/online_courses/ |
| 17:47.20 | Migs | I think that's great, too. But one method is not necessarily superior than the other. Just different, based on your preferences. |
| 17:48.08 | Migs | sjansen: Some of those require satellite classroom attendance |
| 17:48.30 | Migs | at least I know the MEd does |
| 17:48.46 | Migs | co-worker of mine is doing it. Or maybe she was doing the EdD |
| 17:48.57 | Migs | can't remember now. Maybe I'm wrong. |
| 17:49.48 | Migs | what's the best online class you ever had? |
| 17:49.54 | Migs | (question for anyone) |
| 17:53.16 | sjansen | programmerq: Are you interested in CS because you want to learn the science of algorithmns? Or are you mostly interested in coding? |
| 17:53.55 | sjansen | computer scientist != coder, although a lot of coders get CS degrees |
| 17:54.26 | programmerq | sjansen: basically, I wanted to do EE, but I'm a sysadmin working full time right now. |
| 17:54.30 | JoshH | Migs: not really "having a class", but i watched some of the low level cs class videos on that MIT thing, and was pretty impressed by how good the prof's seemed. if i had a lot of free time i could watch those for hours |
| 17:54.37 | programmerq | I believe a CS degree would open up additional opportunities for me |
| 17:54.54 | JoshH | EE would too |
| 17:54.55 | sjansen | A CS degree? Or a degree? |
| 17:54.58 | programmerq | at my current company and further down in the road. |
| 17:54.59 | Migs | An IT degree would be good, too |
| 17:55.01 | programmerq | sjansen: a degree |
| 17:55.09 | JoshH | "IT" sucks though |
| 17:55.12 | programmerq | don't want an IT degree |
| 17:55.20 | programmerq | and yes, EE or CS would both be good |
| 17:55.29 | Migs | I've heard nothing but great things about WGU's IT programs. http://wgu.edu |
| 17:55.34 | JoshH | one thing i like about the U is the EE and CS is somewhat blended, to an extent |
| 17:55.40 | Migs | also fully online |
| 17:55.41 | programmerq | but since I'm working full time, I believe that a CS degree would probably be more manageable than EE |
| 17:55.49 | programmerq | yeah, don't want an IT degree |
| 17:55.51 | Migs | My co-worker said Weber State's IT program was actually quite good |
| 17:56.00 | Migs | I probably wouldn't either |
| 17:56.02 | sjansen | I'm not sure if anyone in Utah offers Software Engineering degrees, but it might be a better fit. |
| 17:56.03 | Migs | I have a CS degree |
| 17:56.22 | sjansen | CS == theory of information processing |
| 17:56.23 | JoshH | "IT degree" makes me imagine some guy setting up the windows AD at a callcenter for 35k |
| 17:56.25 | Migs | I wasn't really sure at the time what I wanted to do with it, though |
| 17:56.34 | programmerq | I wouldn't mind being a coder, but I do like learning the theory and the science behind it all |
| 17:56.36 | sjansen | SE = processing for creating quality software |
| 17:56.41 | Migs | except he gets paid 70k |
| 17:56.47 | Migs | thus, the value of the degree |
| 17:56.49 | programmerq | yeah, software engineering would be acceptable as well |
| 17:56.49 | jsmith | sjansen: And "Computer Engineering"? |
| 17:57.09 | sjansen | computer engineering is generally more about hardware. |
| 17:57.14 | programmerq | I consider myself an engineer rather than a scientist. |
| 17:57.26 | programmerq | so software engineering degree would probably be a better fit. |
| 17:57.28 | Migs | I almost did a masters in CS, but then I realized I hate computer science |
| 17:57.36 | JoshH | my goal is to be "distinguished engineer and chief scientist" somewhere |
| 17:57.48 | Migs | and frankly I hate software engineering, too. All that stuff is boring. |
| 17:57.48 | Migs | I chose educational technology instead |
| 17:57.59 | Migs | best decision I ever made for myself |
| 18:00.17 | sjansen | If you're opposed to an IT degree, then Wester Governors is out. But the have a reputation for not being more affordable and more focuses on quality than most online only programs. |
| 18:00.31 | sjansen | s/for not being/for being/ |
| 18:00.56 | sjansen | (Was going to say "for not being scumbags" but changed my mind.) |
| 18:01.51 | JoshH | all i know about places like that is that everyone i know who went to one has a fairly low level job and owes them about 70k |
| 18:02.58 | Migs | WGU can be insanely cheap |
| 18:03.11 | Migs | you pay a flat fee for 6 months of coursework, and can load up on as much as you want during that time |
| 18:03.25 | JoshH | i actually don't know anyone that went there specifically |
| 18:03.30 | Migs | I've had two coworkers who finished their MBAs in less than a year for $6000 ($3000 every 6 months) |
| 18:03.48 | Migs | for an online program, that's ridiculous |
| 18:04.28 | Migs | It's more of a self-directed learning model, though. They assign you a mentor to keep you on track and going through everything. |
| 18:04.37 | sontek | I don't think degrees really help much, especially if you are going into an IT field |
| 18:04.44 | Migs | You set your own learning goals, and if you don't meet them, your mentor harasses you like crazy |
| 18:04.55 | JoshH | they can help you get interviews for sure |
| 18:05.03 | Migs | Some probably more than others. Another one of my co-workers was complaining about that. |
| 18:05.11 | JoshH | and some jobs have them under the "required" section, but not as much for just "IT" |
| 18:05.12 | Migs | He got lazy and started getting tons of phone calls until he got back on track. |
| 18:05.13 | programmerq | looks like devry has a computer engineering program that can be done 100% online |
| 18:05.27 | Migs | A degree never hurts |
| 18:05.49 | Migs | But in this field, people value experience and skill more than anything |
| 18:05.51 | JoshH | thing is though, a ton of people are really biased against all those non-traditional schools, and just automatically consider anyone who went to one to be a moron |
| 18:06.11 | Migs | Yeah. It really is stupid. |
| 18:06.18 | sontek | I've never had a problem getting a job as a programmer, even in '05 when I really had no experience outside of building little php apps for my counter-strike clans |
| 18:06.21 | Migs | That doesn't happen as much if you're getting a job for a tech-specific company |
| 18:06.35 | Migs | But if you're becoming an IT guy at a more traditional services company, there's a bias |
| 18:06.51 | Migs | I've heard the horror stories :) |
| 18:07.10 | programmerq | I have enough experience that I doubt getting a degree from a non-traditional school would close any doors for me |
| 18:07.15 | sontek | Yeah, if you want to work for a really corporate cubicle shop, a degree is valued more |
| 18:07.31 | sontek | but if you want to work at companies that have tapped kegs and send you to conferences, a degree isn't really required |
| 18:07.35 | Migs | in my workplace, a degree = higher wages |
| 18:07.42 | JoshH | that's what i want to do sontek |
| 18:07.42 | Migs | that was my main incentive |
| 18:07.53 | Migs | getting bumped up the step/lane ladder |
| 18:07.55 | programmerq | honestly I figure there's plenty more I could learn by getting a degree that I won't get from experience as a sysadmin. |
| 18:08.01 | JoshH | but degrees definitely help with those too |
| 18:08.08 | Migs | tuition reimbursement doesn't hurt, either |
| 18:08.31 | sontek | Going up the ladder usually means no more programming |
| 18:08.37 | Migs | my undergrad CS classes were mostly useless, tbh |
| 18:08.37 | sontek | thats no fun :) |
| 18:08.42 | Migs | I learned most of my stuff on the job |
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| 18:09.03 | sjansen | programmerq: I'm curous how a pure online CE degree would work. Most CE's get their hands dirty playing with hardware. Kinda like EE-lite. |
| 18:09.06 | sontek | programmerq: I've hired lots of college grads, they don't know crap when they come out of school |
| 18:09.12 | JoshH | sontek: is your company like that? |
| 18:09.12 | sontek | programmerq: you wont know how to code until you are doing it as a job |
| 18:09.14 | programmerq | yeah, I figure that after a while, I'll have to move into management at some point |
| 18:09.34 | JoshH | all my california friends have kegerators in their breakrooms... of course utah bans kegs though. sigh. |
| 18:09.45 | programmerq | oh, I have no illusions about what you don't learn at school |
| 18:09.51 | sontek | JoshH: That last 3 companies I've worked for I made more money than every college grad at the company doing the same work |
| 18:10.00 | programmerq | I had a roommate who was about to get is doctorate in CS |
| 18:10.02 | sontek | JoshH: because unlike them, I had 4 years of experience where as they had 4yrs of college |
| 18:10.22 | programmerq | I bought a tv tuner or something and went to put it in my desktop and realized I was using my last PCI slot |
| 18:10.23 | sontek | and 4yrs of work experience teaches you much more than college ever will |
| 18:10.35 | programmerq | I sait "oh, looks like I'm out of PCI slots" and he said "what's that?" |
| 18:10.45 | programmerq | I was shocked |
| 18:10.49 | sontek | That being said, they are always better at math than me |
| 18:11.22 | programmerq | I'm not getting experience as a coder though, being a sysadmin. |
| 18:11.37 | JoshH | sontek: if you have to choose between experience and education, experience will probably count more, but guys with both meet the hiring requirements at more places, probably get more interviews, etc. |
| 18:11.41 | programmerq | but I supposed I probably know enough that if the right opportunity came along I could jump ships and be just fine. |
| 18:12.00 | JoshH | basically, i think having education is ideal, but not strictly necessary just to have a job |
| 18:12.09 | programmerq | agreed |
| 18:12.15 | sontek | JoshH: Having the education is never a negative, just depends on your goals |
| 18:12.38 | JoshH | and honestly i don't really respect people who go to college just for a degree or career purposes. i think people who go should love to learn |
| 18:12.41 | sontek | JoshH: for me, I love to code and so I do it at work and as a hobby, my goal is to work on fun stuff and never stop coding |
| 18:13.21 | sontek | so moving up the ladder to management is never going to be a plan of mine, I run a team of engineers but I have a person "above" me who goes to all the meetings |
| 18:13.29 | sontek | that person makes more than me and i'm ok with that :P |
| 18:13.33 | fozzmoo | sontek: That's smart. |
| 18:13.52 | fozzmoo | That helps a lot if you're not a "people person" too. |
| 18:13.54 | JoshH | i wouldn't want to "manage" people, unless it was really more about just directing a team/project/etc |
| 18:14.09 | sontek | fozzmoo: exactly |
| 18:14.29 | sontek | fozzmoo: I'd rather grow a neckbeard and drink monster than wear a suit and talk about ROI :P |
| 18:14.39 | fozzmoo | hee hee. |
| 18:15.01 | sontek | actually I tried the neck beard think, I don't think I was using enough conditioner because it was poking me |
| 18:15.13 | sontek | beard thing* |
| 18:15.37 | JoshH | you have to toughen up your neck skin |
| 18:19.27 | sontek | I'll start giving it regular beatings |
| 18:19.34 | sontek | that'll toughen it up |
| 18:23.18 | sjansen | JoshH: You don't respect people who are willing to play the game and invest in themselves? That's silly. |
| 18:23.34 | JoshH | sjansen: saying i didn't respect them was the wrong phrase |
| 18:24.00 | JoshH | i just think education should be at least as much about expanding your knowledge as it is about your career |
| 18:25.29 | JoshH | so for example, people who specifically look for the "easy A" electives and reading about who is the easiest professor on ratemyprofessor.com instead of taking what they would enjoy kinda bother me |
| 18:28.52 | sjansen | Depends on what stage you are in life. |
| 18:29.07 | sjansen | At the start of my degree, I was all about the fun. By the end, I just wanted out. |
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| 18:42.13 | programmerq | JoshH: of course it's useful to have a degree, but going back to school wouldn't be worth it to me if that was my only goal |
| 18:42.38 | programmerq | I really do enjoy learning. |
| 18:42.50 | JoshH | ya, i understand that |
| 18:43.09 | JoshH | i'd like to take classes even now just for fun personally, but it's not actually practical |
| 18:43.21 | programmerq | yeah, I've looked at some of MIT's opencourseware stuff. |
| 18:43.26 | programmerq | that's fun to go through. |
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| 19:00.50 | unum | there's so much demand for programmers just about anyone can get a job doing, the job may not pay very much |
| 19:01.05 | unum | but if I got a job as a programmer anyone can :) |
| 19:13.14 | unum | my degree is in government and technology |
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| 19:58.47 | eightyeight | unum: i think i've only met one person in the IT industry with a degree that has a degree in computer science. ツ |
| 19:59.15 | eightyeight | you in gov. and tech., mike in philosphy, me in math, someone else in history, ... |
| 20:01.02 | fozzmoo | I have a CS degree. |
| 20:01.12 | fozzmoo | Would have been an ECE degree... had I been better at math. |
| 20:01.26 | eightyeight | fozzmoo: well, you make #2 then. ツ |
| 20:01.46 | fozzmoo | My brother-in-law has a CS degree too... but it's from Weber, so I don't know if it counts. ;-) |
| 20:02.29 | eightyeight | i haven't met him |
| 20:03.00 | fozzmoo | I remember comparing curricula with him... His "computer architecture" class took PCs apart and put them back together. Ours at USU studied a RISC processor, wrote assembly for it, etc. |
| 20:03.21 | fozzmoo | Oh. Adam's met you. |
| 20:03.51 | unum | eightyeight: what about software engineers? |
| 20:04.20 | unum | my younger brother works in IT and has a degree in business administration |
| 20:04.41 | eightyeight | unum: what about software engineers? |
| 20:04.42 | unum | by older brother is a DBA and has a cs degree from the U |
| 20:05.03 | eightyeight | doesn't understand the question |
| 20:05.09 | unum | how many software engineers do you know with a cs degree, or were you including them with the it people |
| 20:05.21 | eightyeight | ah |
| 20:05.29 | eightyeight | included them in the "IT industry" |
| 20:05.47 | eightyeight | come to think of it, i know 2 more, although i haven't seen them in years |
| 20:05.54 | eightyeight | not sure what they're up to now |
| 20:05.55 | unum | but Kayna and Polash don't count? |
| 20:06.05 | eightyeight | i don't know what their degrees are |
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| 20:06.34 | unum | I thought one was cs and the other was computer enigneering, but I also thought you told me that...... |
| 20:07.01 | eightyeight | i may have. i haven't worked there for 6 years |
| 20:07.22 | unum | 5 |
| 20:07.23 | eightyeight | does frank have a cs degree? |
| 20:07.27 | unum | I've only been there for 6 |
| 20:07.31 | unum | no communications |
| 20:07.36 | eightyeight | i left jan 2006 |
| 20:07.43 | eightyeight | so, 6 in 1 month |
| 20:07.47 | unum | no you left jan 2007 |
| 20:07.48 | eightyeight | oh, no. jan 2007 |
| 20:07.49 | eightyeight | ok. 5 |
| 20:07.51 | unum | :) |
| 20:07.51 | eightyeight | yeah |
| 20:07.52 | sjansen | No one with a CS degree and a lick of sense would ever work in IT. |
| 20:08.09 | eightyeight | here come the pedantics |
| 20:08.13 | sjansen | (Says the guy with a CS degree who does IT training.) |
| 20:08.43 | unum | I was wondering if was going to go with pedantics or self deprecation |
| 20:09.56 | jsmith | sjansen: That's because programmers get all the credit, and IT folks only get noticed when something goes wrong. |
| 20:10.16 | fozzmoo | He doesn't say much, but when he does, jsmith shines. ;-) |
| 20:10.39 | JoshH | you never see job postings asking for a "rock star" IT guy |
| 20:10.42 | jsmith | fozzmoo: I learned that after spending several years of my career on the IT side of the fence |
| 20:10.56 | JoshH | programmers are the rock stars, IT guys are the road crew |
| 20:11.02 | fozzmoo | I've had legs on both sides. Gets a little uncomfortable after a while. |
| 20:12.07 | JoshH | IT is pretty broad though, but so is programming |
| 20:12.18 | JoshH | there are a lot of fun and terrible types of jobs in both areas |
| 20:12.52 | eightyeight | heh |
| 20:14.12 | unum | I've decided to go back to my "do everything" job |
| 20:14.21 | unum | I like the variety |
| 20:14.22 | eightyeight | back to VD? |
| 20:14.26 | unum | yep |
| 20:14.28 | eightyeight | wow |
| 20:14.36 | eightyeight | that was quick |
| 20:15.04 | JoshH | venereal disease? |
| 20:15.09 | fozzmoo | :) |
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| 20:40.31 | sontek | Although now "DevOps" is the new cool thing to do |
| 20:40.41 | sontek | So you can be a rockstar and the crew |
| 20:41.10 | JoshH | ya, i've heard of the devops thing |
| 20:41.40 | goozbach | defops YO! |
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| 22:28.55 | Tene | fozzmoo: a friend of mine went to uni at the university of waterloo and was trying for a CS degree, but the math requirements were too much for him, so he got a math degree instead. |
| 22:29.08 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 22:29.11 | shalkie | hah! |
| 23:02.52 | jalbretsen | so call me stupid..... in RHEL 5 I could do echo "$foo" | mail -s "subject" doctor@tardis.com and whatever $foo was would be in the delivered email inline message. Now in RHEL 6, if I do the same thing, the contents of $foo is an attachment. I want it to be inline still. I've tried the -E option, no worky. Ideas? |
| 23:06.13 | neybar | man, my C is rusty! I'm trying to fix a portibility problem. On linux/gcc libgen.h dirname(foo) will alter foo in place stripping off the filename, but in osx/gcc dirname(foo) returns the dirname, but leaves foo unaltered. |
| 23:07.28 | neybar | I'm thinking my best bet is to just re-implement the dirname function so I don't have to guess what functionality is going to happen. |
| 23:11.11 | sontek | neybar: just grab the result of dirname() and use that |
| 23:15.26 | neybar | does dirname() always return the dirname? Some of the docs I was looking at seemed like the rv was sometimes 0/1 if it failed or not. |
| 23:16.13 | sontek | it should always return it |
| 23:16.37 | sontek | I'm going off memory, I'm pretty sure thats what I ended up doing when I ported to osx |
| 23:17.31 | neybar | excellent |
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