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| 00:13.38 | eightyeight | leninade? |
| 00:13.41 | eightyeight | wtf? |
| 00:16.36 | eightyeight | ah. a soda |
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| 18:04.26 | fadein | has anybody bought mp3s from amazon recently? |
| 18:04.32 | fadein | do their mp3s have DRM? |
| 18:06.28 | smcquay | fadein: I thought that was the main reason to go with amazon: high VBR, no DRM ... |
| 18:07.51 | jima | yeah, i've bought drm-free mp3s from amazon. |
| 18:08.02 | jima | last one was a bit ago...let's see... |
| 18:10.32 | jima | last december, apparently. |
| 18:44.05 | fadein | yeah, you guys are correct: http://www.drmfreeaudio.com/music-search.html |
| 18:44.08 | brac | [DRM Free Music: Buy DRM Free Music from the Best DRM Free Music Sites] |
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| 18:50.38 | influx | What documentation should I read in order to find out how to have a specific host name (mask?) resolve to a sub-directory on 127.0.0.1 ? |
| 18:51.50 | influx | That is to say, what would I read in order to find out how to have http://cheesecake/ point to (resolve?) http://127.0.0.1/cheesecake/ ? |
| 18:52.07 | jima | afaik, all you can do is use name-based virtualhosts and set the documentroot to whatever directory you want |
| 18:52.41 | jima | although i suppose you could use mod_rewrite |
| 18:53.15 | influx | Hrm. |
| 18:53.38 | influx | Thanks, jima. :) |
| 18:53.54 | jima | np |
| 18:54.09 | jima | (mmmm, cheesecake) |
| 18:54.50 | influx | :D |
| 18:55.01 | Tene | yeah, mod_rewrite based on hostname |
| 18:55.15 | influx | Your first suggestion seems best/easiest. (just found this: http://foundationphp.com/tutorials/vhosts_leopard.php ) |
| 18:55.16 | brac | [Creating a virtual host in Mac OS X 10.5] |
| 18:55.57 | jima | actually, if there's potential to be a LOT of "hostnames," the latter suggestion is probably better |
| 18:56.27 | Tene | or use the mass virtual hosting features of apache |
| 18:56.28 | jima | you could make it formulaic so that it changes http://<hostname>/ to http://127.0.0.1/<hostname>/ |
| 18:56.32 | Tene | dynamic mass virtual hosting |
| 18:56.51 | jima | or that, i'm possibly going to use that on my new customer box |
| 18:57.41 | sjansen | Why does everyone jump to mod_rewrite maddness when simple redirect, alias, and virtualhost statements are usually sufficient? |
| 18:58.37 | jima | because, as i said, it could be formulaic :-) |
| 18:59.54 | Tene | jima: so can virtualhosts |
| 18:59.55 | influx | I can see myself taking advantage of the latter solution. Here's why I inquired: With my limited knowledge of how CakePHP functions, it seems that I could save myself a lot of trouble in using one of the two solutions proferred when trying to create a new install of Cake for each project/virtual host. |
| 19:00.07 | Tene | jima: http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.0/vhosts/mass.html |
| 19:00.08 | brac | [Dynamically Configured Mass Virtual Hosting - Apache HTTP Server] |
| 19:00.14 | sjansen | http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/vhosts/mass.html <-- Also very formulaic, and often less confusing than mod_rewrite. |
| 19:00.15 | brac | [Dynamically configured mass virtual hosting - Apache HTTP Server] |
| 19:00.37 | jima | Tene: that could be construed to be a bit of overkill for *this* use, but yeah. |
| 19:02.24 | influx | So, with my goal met, I don't have to fuss about with wiping the one install I would otherwise have, and re-installing when starting a new project. |
| 19:02.25 | sjansen | influx: Ah, now we've root caused your problem. Stop using PHP and life will be less complicated. |
| 19:02.46 | influx | sjansen: D'oh ho ho. Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of switching just yet. |
| 19:03.54 | sjansen | Perl, Python, and Ruby have all been moving away from a global, shared packages. Sounds like you're trying to move in the opposite direction. Are you sure that's a good idea? |
| 19:03.57 | influx | My prime concern is making an easier time of finding work in the near future. |
| 19:04.30 | influx | I'm sorry, are you referring to Cake? |
| 19:04.42 | influx | (Code Igniter, etc.) |
| 19:05.10 | jima | i'm with sjansen on this one ;-P |
| 19:05.32 | influx | I'm not arguing against you--only pointing out my particular constraints. |
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| 19:07.42 | influx | You've been helpful. Thanks, dudes. :) |
| 19:07.57 | sjansen | http://www.virtualenv.org/ |
| 19:07.57 | Tene | sjansen +1 |
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| 20:40.28 | levi | sjansen: I don't think his goals were what you thought they were. |
| 20:41.17 | fugue88 | Inconceivable. |
| 20:41.44 | levi | Having set up some PHP apps recently, I think his main problem stems from the fact that a lot of PHP frameworks really want to live at the root of a domain. So if you want to play with multiple ones, the easiest thing to do is wipe the old one and install the new one. |
| 20:42.25 | levi | And so he wanted a better way to have multiple PHP framework thingies alive at the same time. |
| 20:59.04 | sjansen | Well that's unfortunate. |
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| 21:08.22 | levi | sjansen: What's unfortunate? |
| 21:09.44 | lukfugl | I think the hogging behavior of the frameworks is what he's referring to |
| 21:13.13 | levi | Yeah, it really is. I think you can get around it, if you are savvy enough with the framework configuration and your webserver configuration, but it's certainly easier to just let them live at the root of a virtual host. |
| 21:13.49 | levi | By the way, if anyone is using apache+mod_php, you really shouldn't be. |
| 21:14.36 | jtolds | s/apache\+mod_// |
| 21:14.45 | Migs | OR ELSE |
| 21:15.24 | levi | Well, sure, but there's an awful lot of useful stuff written in php, and you may want to run it on your website. |
| 21:15.56 | levi | Apache+mod_php is the easy, obvious, and horribly wrong way to do it. |
| 21:19.03 | sjansen | I think almost everyone has come to realize that mod_anything_that_embeds_an_interpreter_in_apache is a bad idea. Although I admit I don't know what the right way to use PHP is today. |
| 21:19.43 | sjansen | refrains from harping on the fact that the only right way to use PHP is not at all |
| 21:19.50 | goozbach | mod perl isnt good? |
| 21:20.06 | levi | php5-fpm looked like the only reasonable way to do it, though I didn't look super-hard. |
| 21:21.08 | jalbretsen | You all should move this conversation to a more appropriate forum. Might I suggest the PLUG list. ;) |
| 21:21.32 | levi | Why would that be particularly more appropriate than here? |
| 21:22.12 | levi | I have actually just started playing with node.js, which is kind of interesting. |
| 21:22.16 | lukfugl | #php would probably be appropriate as well :) |
| 21:22.19 | jalbretsen | looks like a PHP language (flame) war might be starting up. |
| 21:22.30 | jalbretsen | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:22.54 | jtolds | you mean irc isn't the place for flamewars? |
| 21:22.57 | levi | I don't think any of us here would actually choose to write a new webapp in php. |
| 21:23.20 | sjansen | mod_perl is better than CGIs. Running the interpreter in a separate, persistent process is better. Although I don't know the best way to do things with Perl these days, I'm sure there's an equivalent to wsgi, fcgi, etc. Heck, there's always mod_proxy. |
| 21:23.32 | levi | Well, at least of those who had just been talking. |
| 21:26.34 | levi | Well, if you can use mod_perl with a sane Apache MPM (i.e., not mpm_prefork) then it is probably not as terrible as mod_php. But I don't really know how mod_perl works. |
| 21:27.55 | goozbach | we used mod_perl at a previous job |
| 21:28.43 | fugue88 | php as a built-in fcgi mode, similar to its cgi and cli modes. |
| 21:29.10 | fugue88 | My blog runs in a persistent php (fcgi) process, that my web server connects to. |
| 21:29.18 | d3c4f-work | what about mod_security? anyone use that? |
| 21:29.51 | fugue88 | And they connect over a unix socket. |
| 21:29.53 | levi | Yeah, I recently reconfigured a website to use php5-fpm, which is a fastcgi process that manages a bunch of php workers. |
| 21:30.48 | levi | http_keepalive + apache + mod_php + traffic spike = pain |
| 21:30.48 | fugue88 | I think lighttpd supports automatically spawning additional php fcgi process, |
| 21:30.59 | fugue88 | but I haven't looked into as my blog doesn't get much (any) traffic. |
| 21:31.26 | levi | php-fpm will take care of that for you, too. |
| 21:31.28 | jalbretsen | mod_security is on my list at work, that's as far as I've gotten more or less |
| 21:32.26 | jalbretsen | epel has an rpm, made it easier to install |
| 21:43.28 | Tene | sjansen: psgi/plack is the perl equivalent to wsgi/rack/etc. You've got all the options you want for servers to run it. |
| 21:47.00 | fozzmoo | What Tene said. |
| 21:47.18 | fozzmoo | PSGI is where it's at now. |
| 21:48.08 | Tene | mod_perl is great if you need to hook into apache's request lifecycle, like an apache module. |
| 21:48.31 | Tene | We do some... horrible things... in mod_perl to try to prop up our horrible apache/mod_php deployment process. |
| 21:50.17 | goozbach | we were doing some funky things with mod_perl as well |
| 21:50.55 | levi | How many of you perl guys still do perl? |
| 21:51.04 | Tene | I do perl. |
| 21:51.25 | goozbach | I've not done perl work for about six months |
| 21:51.34 | goozbach | doing a lot of python now days |
| 21:51.44 | levi | I haven't heard much from the perl world lately. What's going on there? Anything cool? |
| 21:52.02 | eightyeight | still no perl 6 |
| 21:52.06 | lukfugl | did perl6 ever take off, or is everythin.... |
| 21:52.07 | lukfugl | nevermind |
| 21:52.14 | fugue88 | laughs |
| 21:52.15 | eightyeight | ã |
| 21:52.41 | goozbach | I was gonna post a UDP joke, but you might not get it... |
| 21:52.43 | levi | I think I would have heard about any major perl6 developments. |
| 21:52.54 | Tene | eightyeight: That's incomplete. I've been using Perl 6 for a couple of years now. It's been available in debian and fedora for quite a while. |
| 21:52.54 | levi | Go ahead, I'm curious now. |
| 21:53.07 | fugue88 | goozbach: Funny. :) |
| 21:53.25 | goozbach | stole that joke from someone on twitter |
| 21:53.32 | JoshH | heh |
| 21:53.35 | Tene | levi: http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl5.porters/2011/09/msg176970.html |
| 21:53.41 | goozbach | but he was asking for it, he broadcast it. |
| 21:54.00 | Tene | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:54.46 | eightyeight | Tene: 'aptitude show perl6' yields 'No current or candidate version found for perl6' with 'State: not a real package' in debian unstable |
| 21:54.52 | Tene | So, stop letting backwards compatibility hold the language back. |
| 21:55.18 | Tene | http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=rakudo&searchon=names&suite=all§ion=all |
| 21:55.30 | sjansen | eightyeight: Perl6 is a standard. Rakudo is an implementation. |
| 21:55.50 | eightyeight | ah. rakudo |
| 21:56.46 | eightyeight | fair enough |
| 21:56.49 | sjansen | levi: If you're really interested, I recommend reading the entire page Tene linked. Was looking for the URL myself. Read it a couple days ago. Very informative. |
| 21:57.39 | levi | Yeah, I'm reading it now. |
| 21:57.46 | Tene | http://6guts.wordpress.com/2011/09/13/whats-coming-up-in-septemberoctober/ discusses upcoming work on Rakudo; I can summarize if you'd like. |
| 21:57.59 | lukfugl | thank goodness for readability |
| 21:58.08 | lukfugl | (the app, not the adjective) |
| 21:59.01 | Tene | The metaprogramming stuff in the new object model branch of rakudo is pretty interesting. |
| 22:01.50 | sjansen | For those that aren't aware, over the last several years Perl 5 has experienced something of a renaissance. |
| 22:07.36 | levi | Huh, they're working on a self-hosting implementation? That's kind of cool. |
| 22:08.36 | fugue88 | goozbach: Heard this from a coworker: The problem with TCP jokes is that people keep retelling them more slowly until you get them. |
| 22:08.49 | lukfugl | lol |
| 22:12.16 | jtolds | http://protolol.com |
| 22:13.57 | levi | The perl code on 6guts looks so much nicer than the perl I remember reading. |
| 22:14.59 | Tene | levi: that's all Perl 6. |
| 22:15.14 | levi | Indeed. |
| 22:15.55 | Tene | levi: I think you'd relly enjoy a lot of what jnthn has written about Perl 6 implementation. |
| 22:16.12 | Tene | That blog is good, as is his list of slides here: http://www.jnthn.net/papers/2011-yapceu-rakudo.pdf |
| 22:18.05 | Tene | http://www.jnthn.net/papers/2010-osdc.fr-rakudo.pdf I think is the one I liked that talks about the representation polymorphism stuff |
| 22:20.18 | Tene | (things like packing native attributes into class instances, packing arrays of native types into a single contiguous memory location, etc. |
| 22:20.39 | Tene | I got most of the way through implementing a ruby object model on 6model; it's pretty fascinating. |
| 22:23.01 | levi | Huh, reading the slides you'd think he invented the idea of a meta-object protocol. :P |
| 22:23.28 | Tene | Did you miss the "The Art of the Metaobject Protocol" featured at the start? ;) |
| 22:23.53 | levi | I looked at the second PDF first. Hven't looked at the first one yet. |
| 22:25.01 | levi | I find it incredibly awesome that there are people designing new languages that are willing to look to the past for good ideas now. |
| 22:25.02 | Tene | Oh, the first pdf is good, but it's not the link I meant. I mispasted. |
| 22:25.14 | Tene | http://www.jnthn.net/articles.shtml |
| 22:25.15 | brac | [Jonathan Worthington :: Articles And Papers] |
| 22:26.01 | Tene | Perl 6 Roles are based largely on Smalltalk Traits: http://scg.unibe.ch/research/traits |
| 22:26.53 | levi | Most of the cool stuff in today's programming languages was first done a long time ago in a derivative of Smalltalk or Lisp. |
| 22:28.52 | levi | Traits are a really cool idea. |
| 22:30.22 | levi | There are actually a bunch of other old CS ideas that were not in Smalltalk or Lisp that are worth revisiting, too. But Smalltalk and Lisp seem to be where most of the cool nifty things from today's dynamic languages come from. |
| 22:32.38 | levi | Anyway, it makes me happy to see people putting all that good stuff to new use. |
| 22:33.19 | Tene | Agreed. |
| 22:34.22 | Tene | Looks like Parrot is (possibly) getting its act together a bit better these days, and we might see some significant improvements there, if current trends continue. If not, Rakudo is also working on running on other VMs too, which should be interesting. |
| 22:35.52 | levi | Modern VM technology is rooted in the Smalltalk world, too. Specifically the Self and Strongtalk VMs. |
| 22:37.28 | Tene | One of the original motivations for Parrot to be register-based instead of stack-based is tot ake advantage of research into optimization for register-based CPUs. |
| 22:38.19 | levi | How helpful did that turn out to be? |
| 22:38.32 | levi | I believe Lua uses a register-based VM as well. |
| 22:41.26 | levi | Dalvik, too. |
| 22:44.43 | fozzmoo | levi: I know I'm late in responding, but the company I've been working for the last year and a half does everything in Perl and we're hiring like crazy. |
| 22:45.47 | sjansen | fozzmoo: Who are you working for these days? |
| 22:46.03 | fozzmoo | Grant Street Group. They're based in PIttsburgh. |
| 22:49.49 | Tene | levi: It hasn't been a notable topic of discussion so far; no language implementations targetting parrot are to that degree of optimization yet. |
| 22:50.09 | Tene | fozzmoo: did you move to PA, or do you telecommute? |
| 22:50.19 | fozzmoo | Telecommute. |
| 22:50.27 | fozzmoo | I go to PA for meetings a couple times a year. |
| 22:50.49 | levi | Looks like the Dis virtual machine from Inferno just uses memory addresses rather than registers or stack. |
| 22:50.51 | Tene | I was considering going to PPW this year, but decided against it. |
| 22:51.31 | fozzmoo | Tene: We should agree to both go to YAPC-NA 2012. :) |
| 22:51.53 | Tene | 'k, I'm in. |
| 22:52.17 | Tene | I'm sure I can come up with something interesting to present on. |
| 22:52.48 | Tene | Several of the rakudo and parrot folks go to YAPC::NA every year, either early or stay late for a hackathon; I've been meaning to go someday. |
| 22:53.55 | Tene | afk; meeting |
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| 23:54.49 | shalkie | PPW? Plan ahead for Orlando. :-) |