| 00:08.10 | *** join/#utah lukfugl (~lukfugl@66-182-85-148.static.sdyl010.digis.net) |
| 00:35.28 | eightyeight | nevermind |
| 00:35.40 | eightyeight | it helps if you actually reference the initrd in the menu.lst |
| 00:35.42 | eightyeight | heh |
| 00:38.53 | *** join/#utah lukfugl (~lukfugl@66-182-85-148.static.sdyl010.digis.net) |
| 00:42.31 | eightyeight | levi: heh. even though comcast said they were upgrading me to 15Mbps, i clearly have 25, even though i'm only paying for the basic package |
| 00:42.41 | eightyeight | and, my upload went from 3 to 5. so, w00t |
| 00:42.43 | eightyeight | aft |
| 00:52.41 | *** join/#utah mabes (~mabes@runner.fttp.xmission.com) |
| 01:00.59 | levi | eightyeight: Nice. Although it may just let you burst up to that amount, you might try a long download and see if it settles closer to 15 after a bit. |
| 01:05.56 | *** join/#utah har-od (~dshipp@ddns254040.hk.uac65.hknet.com) |
| 01:14.27 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@12.68.178.2) |
| 01:30.39 | *** join/#utah mheath (~mheath@unaffiliated/mheath) |
| 01:56.26 | *** join/#utah allanca (~allanca@66-7-251-18.static-ip.telepacific.net) |
| 01:59.38 | *** part/#utah allanca (~allanca@66-7-251-18.static-ip.telepacific.net) |
| 02:01.33 | *** join/#utah allanca (~allanca@66-7-251-18.static-ip.telepacific.net) |
| 02:01.38 | *** part/#utah allanca (~allanca@66-7-251-18.static-ip.telepacific.net) |
| 02:34.16 | fugue88 | Yeah, my Comcast (business) line bursts a good 200% faster I think, and for up to 10 seconds or so. |
| 03:38.20 | *** join/#utah tiwula (~lane@63.225.228.210) |
| 03:44.54 | eightyeight | yeah, makes sense |
| 03:45.01 | eightyeight | don't trust speedtest.net then. ã |
| 03:45.47 | eightyeight | currently downloading a debian dvd. coming down the pipe ~1.8 MBps, which is about where it should be |
| 04:21.19 | *** join/#utah macnewbold (~Adium@c-67-166-115-242.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 04:25.02 | *** join/#utah eggyknap (~jtolley@74-37-184-179.dsl1.dta.ut.frontiernet.net) |
| 04:25.02 | *** join/#utah eggyknap (~jtolley@unaffiliated/eggyknap) |
| 04:27.27 | *** join/#utah Demo (~Demo@c-174-52-32-170.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 04:35.49 | *** join/#utah Tadaka (~Tadaka@c-76-27-54-140.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 04:46.04 | levi | eightyeight: The burst speed is actually handy, since burst speed will make web pages and associated media files download a lot faster. |
| 05:04.08 | *** join/#utah SoftwareMaven (~user@67-2-71-109.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 05:06.51 | *** join/#utah unum (~unum@li32-23.members.linode.com) |
| 05:12.44 | *** join/#utah sshaw (~decriptor@53.250.sfcn.org) |
| 05:24.28 | *** join/#utah mindjuju (~mindjuju@173-10-26-193-BusName-utah.ut.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 05:27.36 | *** join/#utah fugue88 (~dsowen@173-165-137-65-utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 05:38.37 | *** join/#utah sshaw (~decriptor@53.250.sfcn.org) |
| 06:03.47 | *** join/#utah mabes (~mabes@runner.fttp.xmission.com) |
| 06:23.21 | *** join/#utah allanca (~allanca@c-24-5-68-21.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 07:14.23 | *** join/#utah macnewbold1 (~Adium@c-67-166-115-242.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 07:35.15 | *** join/#utah macnewbold (~Adium@c-67-166-115-242.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 09:10.29 | *** join/#utah har-od (~dshipp@202.92.189.106) |
| 09:38.55 | *** join/#utah utahgay (~diabolica@140.sub-174-253-191.myvzw.com) |
| 09:39.03 | utahgay | hi |
| 13:39.07 | *** join/#utah thaddeusq (~thaddeusq@216.49.181.128) |
| 13:41.34 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (~TimRiker@bzflag/projectlead/TimRiker) |
| 13:41.34 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 14:08.23 | *** join/#utah eggyknap (~jtolley@74-37-184-179.dsl1.dta.ut.frontiernet.net) |
| 14:08.23 | *** join/#utah eggyknap (~jtolley@unaffiliated/eggyknap) |
| 14:09.06 | *** join/#utah eggyknap (~jtolley@74-37-184-179.dsl1.dta.ut.frontiernet.net) |
| 14:09.06 | *** join/#utah eggyknap (~jtolley@unaffiliated/eggyknap) |
| 14:20.34 | *** join/#utah Tadaka (~Tadaka@50-73-39-18-utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 14:20.36 | *** join/#utah resplin (~resplin@resplin.fttp.xmission.com) |
| 14:28.29 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@12.68.178.2) |
| 14:32.35 | *** join/#utah macnewbold (~Adium@76.8.223.101) |
| 14:33.06 | eightyeight | beautiful: http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Hurd-Progresses-Debian-GNU-Hurd-by-end-of-2012-1279253.html |
| 14:33.30 | fugue88 | End of 2012. Hah! |
| 14:34.09 | eightyeight | yeah. they'll release when ready |
| 14:34.39 | eightyeight | but, if hurd releases, that will make 3 full kernels supported by the security team |
| 14:34.56 | fugue88 | I think they're planning on the Mayan ENd of the World. |
| 14:35.06 | eightyeight | heh |
| 14:46.15 | *** join/#utah jalbretsen (~jalbretse@70.102.57.206) |
| 14:46.17 | *** join/#utah bmidgley (~bmidgley@24-104-67-234-ip-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 14:47.06 | *** join/#utah mabes (~mabes@24-104-67-234-ip-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 15:01.59 | *** join/#utah fungus (~olsonl@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 15:31.00 | Gate | yay for microkernels? |
| 15:35.58 | *** join/#utah sshaw (~decriptor@137.65.132.52) |
| 15:37.12 | *** join/#utah toofer (~toofer@w133212.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) |
| 15:39.39 | *** join/#utah lukfugl (~lukfugl@ip65-46-62-74.z62-46-65.customer.algx.net) |
| 15:48.26 | *** join/#utah fcodiaz (~fcodiaz@nat-out.fw01.slc.dechocorp.net) |
| 15:49.38 | *** join/#utah tiwula (~lane@70.89.246.241-Busname-UT.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 15:51.08 | *** join/#utah solomojo (~IceChat77@66.29.169.138.static.utahbroadband.com) |
| 16:06.17 | sjansen | microkernels are _so_ 20 years ago. |
| 16:06.25 | sjansen | exokernels are where it's really at. |
| 16:08.06 | unum | I gave up on hurd a few years ago |
| 16:08.14 | unum | I thought most the developers had too |
| 16:08.38 | unum | I'll have to give it a try when it gets released |
| 16:08.41 | sjansen | Years? The writing was on the wall a decade ago. |
| 16:10.44 | unum | I'm an optimist |
| 16:13.22 | sjansen | If I call you a loonie, do you promise to claim you're being repressed? |
| 16:21.13 | craigj | Any unix people know why __git_ps1 in PS1 env var would not dynamically update as I change to different git repos? |
| 16:21.27 | craigj | Here is what I am trying: PS1="\u@\h \[\e[0m\]\[\e[1;32m\]\w\[\e[0m\] \[\e[1;31m\]$(__git_ps1 '%s')\[\e[0m\]\n$ " |
| 16:23.35 | craigj | After executing that, the command prompt will show the git repo's branch I am currently in. However, if I cd to another git repo, it will not update the branch to the new git repo I am in. |
| 16:23.46 | JoshH | i think ps1 only updates when your shell rc file is sourced |
| 16:24.12 | JoshH | like when you start a new terminal or . .bashrc, etc |
| 16:24.36 | sjansen | craigj: $(__git_ps1 should be \$(__git_ps1 |
| 16:25.16 | craigj | sjansen: thanks, that was it |
| 16:25.41 | sjansen | JoshH: If you embed a command in the PS1, it will execute each time $PS1 is displayed. |
| 16:26.07 | JoshH | nice |
| 16:26.55 | sjansen | Thinking about how much work is done by __git_ps1 makes me slightly nauseous, but it is super useful. |
| 16:27.55 | *** join/#utah redbeard2 (~jphall@BEYOND-OBLI.car1.SaltLakeCity1.Level3.net) |
| 16:31.00 | levi | Microkernels are so much more fun to play with, but the Linux kernel strategy is clearly better at allowing performance optimizations for real-world use. |
| 16:56.26 | eightyeight | there's a lot of "maybe" in that post, so i'll believe it when i see it, but i'll run it if it releases |
| 16:57.40 | *** join/#utah dharmatech (~hayduke@173-165-135-245-utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 16:58.59 | levi | I do development on QNX. Writing device drivers is so much nicer than in Linux. |
| 17:31.59 | *** join/#utah manithree (~blr@c-71-199-20-169.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 17:41.39 | *** join/#utah utahgay (~diabolica@159.sub-174-253-176.myvzw.com) |
| 17:51.36 | sjansen | Isn't QNX a microkernel? |
| 17:52.44 | fugue88 | Has a microkernel. |
| 17:53.24 | *** part/#utah utahgay (~diabolica@159.sub-174-253-176.myvzw.com) |
| 17:56.14 | sjansen | http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/07/15/138161280/economists-oppose-cuts-for-economists?ft=1&f=93559255 |
| 17:56.15 | brac | [Economists Oppose Cuts For Economists : Planet Money : NPR] |
| 17:57.01 | *** join/#utah kingsol (~kingsol@64.0.193.31) |
| 17:58.13 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (~TimRiker@bzflag/projectlead/TimRiker) |
| 17:58.14 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 17:58.22 | *** part/#utah kingsol (~kingsol@64.0.193.31) |
| 18:21.07 | *** join/#utah mabes_ (~mabes@24-104-67-234-ip-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 19:16.43 | *** join/#utah dharmatech (~hayduke@173-165-135-245-utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 19:23.24 | findlay | levi: who cares about the real world |
| 19:23.26 | findlay | ? |
| 19:23.40 | findlay | It's better to keep it complex, not real |
| 19:24.35 | findlay | I'd much rather write one exp(...) than a long-winded linear combination of cos(...) + sin(...) |
| 19:24.46 | findlay | real world |
| 19:24.49 | findlay | whatever |
| 19:25.10 | findlay | problably only 'real' people care about the real world, haha |
| 19:30.12 | *** join/#utah mabes (~mabes@24-104-67-234-ip-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 19:30.19 | romanovic | wonders if findlay only exists within the ether of irc |
| 19:31.00 | fugue88 | wonders if findlay is purely imaginary |
| 19:32.14 | jsmith | or, at a minimum, irrational? |
| 19:32.18 | jsmith | ducks |
| 19:32.21 | fugue88 | heh |
| 19:33.38 | rsimpkins | Raise your hand if you don't care if the government shuts down because of the debt issue thing. |
| 19:33.42 | fugue88 | If he's irrational, he'd never terminate in any base. |
| 19:33.52 | fugue88 | keeps his hand down |
| 19:33.58 | romanovic | someday we can transfer findlay's consciousness into a small cube-shaped computer that simulates reality. Like Moriarty on star trek. |
| 19:34.00 | fugue88 | *wants* the government to shut down |
| 19:34.54 | Gate | rsimpkins: since most of what the government does is unconstitutional, I'm OK with that. They won't shut down the military and no one will starve because of it. |
| 19:35.09 | rsimpkins | I want the whole country to shut down. For like a week. no cell phone service. nothing. Some peace and quiet for one week please. |
| 19:35.16 | Gate | lol |
| 19:35.24 | fugue88 | :D |
| 19:36.33 | jsmith | rsimpkins: WORKSFORME |
| 19:37.00 | rsimpkins | It is frustraing, though, that we all can't find some way to compromise and work together. |
| 19:37.09 | rsimpkins | Our politicians are only a reflection of us, the people. |
| 19:37.31 | fugue88 | Or maybe, of a majority of us. |
| 19:37.40 | jsmith | And we're all stuck up, pig headed, selfish, and irresponsible |
| 19:37.57 | jsmith | Why should we hold politicians to a higher standard? |
| 19:38.00 | jsmith | ducks and hides |
| 19:38.02 | rsimpkins | jsmith: Uneducated, ignorant, and apathetic too. |
| 19:38.27 | jsmith | rsimpkins: Manipulative, scheming, and above the law as well |
| 19:40.56 | rsimpkins | I often wonder why on Earth the founders of our country didn't add a clause that said "any person who wants to vote must first pass a written exam, consisting of 100 random questions submitted by the top 20% of academic institutions." |
| 19:42.10 | findlay | because such intelligence tests were explicitly forbidden both by clause and by intent |
| 19:42.18 | rsimpkins | Yeah, shame huh. |
| 19:42.32 | findlay | :) |
| 19:43.17 | Tene | yeah, because that couldn't POSSIBLY go wrong. |
| 19:44.10 | fugue88 | Never. We can trust our academics. They always have our best intentions at heart, and never any personal motives. |
| 19:44.53 | rsimpkins | Well, we could have made washington a king instead. |
| 19:44.57 | rsimpkins | That would have been much better. |
| 19:45.24 | Tene | I'm sure none of us have ever seen politics in our current academic institutions. I'm sure they would stay incorruptible under the pressure from corporations who want to run the country. |
| 19:46.18 | rsimpkins | Well, if one of the random 100 questions was "Which brand of Diet Cola do you prefer?" with the only correct answer being "Brand Y", then I agree. |
| 19:47.15 | sjansen | I don't care about a govt. shutdown, but a default on the debt is certain to produce chaos. |
| 19:47.30 | fugue88 | "Default on the debt" is a complete red herring. |
| 19:47.40 | rsimpkins | sjansen: I think we need some chaos. In fact, I think we need a whole bunch of it. |
| 19:47.42 | fugue88 | We have plenty of revenue to continue paying interest on the debt. |
| 19:47.50 | Jayce^ | fugue88++ |
| 19:47.54 | fugue88 | The question is about everything else, which isn't default. |
| 19:47.57 | sjansen | rsimpkins: I still need more time to build a bunker and buy guns. |
| 19:48.08 | Jayce^ | sjansen: been warning you for years :-p |
| 19:48.09 | rsimpkins | sjansen: Adobe has that covered, you can bunker with us. |
| 19:49.10 | sjansen | rsimpkins: Literacy tests were tried in the South and found unconstitutional. |
| 19:49.18 | fugue88 | rsimpkins: I grant you, however, that completely terminating all of our welfare programs, while not "default," could certainly invoke some chaos. |
| 19:49.35 | rsimpkins | fugue88: You bet. And violence. A lot of it. |
| 19:49.42 | sjansen | The argument might have been to improve the quality of the vote, but the reality was to prevent blacks from voting. |
| 19:49.43 | fugue88 | From old people. |
| 19:49.45 | fugue88 | :) |
| 19:50.37 | sjansen | Besides, I doubt you'll get too many republicans to agree to any sort of intelligence test seeing as about half the party is overtly anti-intellectual. |
| 19:52.06 | rsimpkins | I'm personally to the point where I'm simply tired of the complaining and bawling about it. Pick a direction. Go. |
| 19:53.14 | fugue88 | It's all a diversion anyway. |
| 19:53.30 | fugue88 | The "balanced budget amendment" is a good example. |
| 19:53.54 | rsimpkins | Politics as reported, and politics in reality, are totally different. |
| 19:53.56 | fugue88 | If they had the votes to pass an amendment, they'd also have the (fewer required) votes to *just* *balance* *the* *budget*. |
| 19:54.13 | sjansen | I've been harping about the growing debt for years now. At least twice as long as the tea party has existed. |
| 19:54.20 | fugue88 | Neither side *really* wants to balance the budget. |
| 19:54.37 | rsimpkins | sjansen: That guy who put up that debt billboard in the 90s saw it coming. :) |
| 19:54.52 | fugue88 | They just use it as leverage on the public opinion against each other. |
| 19:54.53 | sjansen | I'm all for reducing government spending, but at this point increasing revenue is unavoidable. |
| 19:55.03 | rsimpkins | fugue88: Why do you say "they" instead of us. i don't get it. |
| 19:55.13 | rsimpkins | _We_ picked this course. |
| 19:55.17 | rsimpkins | _We_ chose it. |
| 19:55.21 | Jayce^ | fugue88: it's too advantageous.. only a couple specific legislators actually want to cut debt, and they are all pushed out of having any say |
| 19:55.36 | fugue88 | rsimpkins: Really? I did? How so? |
| 19:55.45 | sjansen | Until the republican party is willing to admit that spending cuts must be combined with closing loop holes and maybe even raising taxes across the board, we're never going to tame the deficit. |
| 19:56.04 | jsmith | sjansen: Amen, brother! |
| 19:56.06 | rsimpkins | fugue88: Why are you thinking as an individual. That is the whole problem. Start thinking about all of us. Together. _we_ _our_ |
| 19:56.14 | Jayce^ | sjansen: why is that? we don't have to raise any, if we are willing to take the painful cuts.. |
| 19:56.23 | fugue88 | rsimpkins: Fine. Explain it. |
| 19:56.26 | Jayce^ | it's like people are supposed to do when they lose their income |
| 19:56.43 | sjansen | The current "give Obama the ability to raise the debt ceiling" suggestion is childish. Suck it up, act like adults, and make hard decisions to fix the problem. |
| 19:57.02 | rsimpkins | fugue88: Until we all decide to act as one, we will be easily divided against each other. Even if you don't agree with everyone individually, there is great power in agreeing with the whole. |
| 19:57.14 | Jayce^ | sjansen: it's more than just childish.. it's just the latest in attempts to consolidate power and pass the buck |
| 19:57.36 | fugue88 | rsimpkins: Explain how we can decide to act as one. |
| 19:58.06 | rsimpkins | fugue88: We take responsibility for all of us. Not just some of us. |
| 19:58.15 | fugue88 | rsimpkins: I *might* agree with what you say, but I don't really know where you're going with this, yet. |
| 19:58.25 | sjansen | Jayce^: Because it is unrealistic to think we'll be willing to make all the necessary cuts. |
| 19:59.03 | sjansen | Are we really ready to cancel welfare? Repeal social security? Eliminate our armed forces? |
| 19:59.05 | Jayce^ | why does it have to be unrealistic? because we're all too lazy? too bad |
| 19:59.30 | Jayce^ | wouldnt' be the first time we've had to make some of those choices |
| 20:00.54 | sjansen | Nothing can be sacred, but at the same time it's quixotic to think that $LEAST_FAVORITE_PROGRAM will be cut deeply enough to make a difference. |
| 20:01.18 | sjansen | Everyone has a different definition of $LEAST_FAVORITE_PROGRAM. |
| 20:01.41 | sjansen | Personally, I'm most disturbed by the cuts to education. |
| 20:01.55 | sjansen | And I think our military spending is our most out of balance. |
| 20:02.13 | sjansen | But I'm certain that others will disagree. |
| 20:02.31 | sjansen | It isn't about being lazy, it's about having different values. |
| 20:02.50 | rsimpkins | sjansen: Bombs and bullets are way more important than saving lives, you insensitive clod. |
| 20:03.35 | Jayce^ | one of them actually is their responsibility, though completely abused beyond where it should be |
| 20:07.06 | sjansen | And it's dogmatic thinking like that that is causing the current crisis. |
| 20:07.37 | Jayce^ | riiight. blame sanity instead of overspending |
| 20:07.43 | rsimpkins | I think #utah can save the country from evental collapse. |
| 20:08.06 | Jayce^ | accuses rsimpkins of white horse prophecy belief |
| 20:08.11 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 20:08.13 | sjansen | If I think that building a social safety net is a appropriate role for government, isn't the point of our system to find a balance between my belief and yours? |
| 20:08.14 | rsimpkins | hehe |
| 20:08.48 | Jayce^ | sjansen: no, it's to allow you to build a safety net with those that agree with you, and not forcing others to be included |
| 20:09.19 | rsimpkins | If you are going to start drawing lines in the sand, we are going to need more sand. And more sticks. |
| 20:09.26 | sjansen | Dude, I've got news for you. Enough people agree with me that it's time for you to find people who disagree and join them. |
| 20:10.03 | Jayce^ | ah, the facist approach.. |
| 20:10.12 | levi | sjansen: Never argue with libertarians. |
| 20:10.21 | sjansen | Whose the facist? You for trying to get rid of me Jayce^? |
| 20:10.35 | sjansen | Because my comment was no more fascist than yours. |
| 20:10.50 | jsmith | envites everyone to join his "radical moderates" party |
| 20:10.55 | Jayce^ | I wasn't trying to get rid of you, I was keeping you from me.. |
| 20:10.56 | jsmith | s/envites/invites/ |
| 20:11.00 | jsmith | fires his typist |
| 20:11.04 | Jayce^ | mine never removes you |
| 20:11.24 | rsimpkins | Some times I wonder if Mr. Lincoln had it all wrong. |
| 20:11.41 | sjansen | Jayce^: I'm telling you, I've got you surrounded. Stay put if you like, but it's time to accept the environment that surrounds you. |
| 20:11.46 | rsimpkins | Let's break out each state in to its own country. Then Utah can invade Idaho. |
| 20:12.09 | Jayce^ | I moved here because of that type of thinking |
| 20:12.29 | sjansen | Why would Utah invade Idaho? They're sufficiently aligned as to probably form one government. |
| 20:12.36 | sjansen | Colorado on the other hand... |
| 20:12.39 | levi | sjansen: Outcomes are irrelevant to someone with a deontological moral system. Being surrounded makes no difference. |
| 20:12.50 | *** join/#utah har-od (~dshipp@202.92.189.106) |
| 20:12.51 | Jayce^ | just leave Denver and springs as islands |
| 20:12.54 | rsimpkins | sjansen: Yeah, Colorado must burn! Soemone call the boys at hill air force base. |
| 20:13.57 | goozbach | but CO has cheyene mountain |
| 20:14.00 | goozbach | hmm |
| 20:14.10 | rsimpkins | Well, we can send the missionaries. |
| 20:14.15 | sjansen | Jayce^: Being unable to see both sides of a coin is worse than being blind in one eye. |
| 20:14.19 | rsimpkins | Who will really be soldiers in disguise. |
| 20:14.54 | Jayce^ | ah, yes, I must be ingorant for not willing to give up beliefs.. |
| 20:15.05 | sjansen | Don't you see that "git rid of you" and "keeping your from me" are two sides of the same coin? Either way, I'm not welcome. |
| 20:15.16 | levi | sjansen: Deontologists can see potential benefits in other systems, they just believe they are morally wrong. |
| 20:15.41 | sjansen | At least I've expressed willingness to include you in the conversation. You want to force me out to prevent the conversation. |
| 20:16.01 | Jayce^ | sjansen: no, not even close. kinda like the idiots in my high school that tried to get the CTR rings banned because our beliefs oppressed their belief |
| 20:16.17 | sjansen | The constitution may be inspired, but that doesn't mean that it deserves the same position as scripture. |
| 20:16.39 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: Your being offended at my being offended offends me. |
| 20:16.40 | sjansen | And even if it were scripture, it wold still be open to interpretation. |
| 20:17.12 | sjansen | I'm not aware of any doctrinal statements that the role of government is only defense. |
| 20:17.13 | Jayce^ | sjansen: i've made no attempt at forcing your discussion out, but you seem offended that I don't want to be included in anothers actions |
| 20:17.57 | Jayce^ | there is more than jsut defense, that is just one of the few powers that is given (though far limited from current practice) |
| 20:18.38 | sjansen | In fact, history would indicate the the ideal situation is a nearly indistinguishable blending of religion and government providing a strong social safety net. |
| 20:19.01 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: If 12 people were in a paintball battle, and 6 wanted to attack, and 6 wanted to defend, would that work out? |
| 20:19.22 | Jayce^ | usually, splitting |
| 20:19.33 | lukfugl | /popcorn |
| 20:20.01 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: So you're six can come attack my 12, who are all being on defense. And we will outnumber you 2:1? Then we can send our 12 to attack your 6. Again, 2:1. |
| 20:20.21 | fugue88 | This sounds like a really bad analogy to me. |
| 20:20.21 | rsimpkins | Or, maybe 11 to your 6. I might lose one guy. |
| 20:20.34 | levi | sjansen: There you go talking about ideal outcomes again. |
| 20:20.35 | Jayce^ | rsimpkins: you haven't played our guys :) |
| 20:20.46 | rsimpkins | fugue88: What? This isn't an analogy. I'm trying to ask about paintball tacits! ;-) |
| 20:20.51 | fugue88 | k |
| 20:21.02 | fugue88 | puts his hands up innocently :) |
| 20:21.04 | goozbach | imagines neybar running and jumping over a roll of chicken wire |
| 20:21.31 | Jayce^ | rsimpkins: of course that's a reason we don't do 'us' vs 'them' while $them == non-teams |
| 20:21.56 | Jayce^ | goozbach: pure classic moment, forever burned into my mind.. |
| 20:22.41 | goozbach | I've only ever lived it second hand |
| 20:22.47 | goozbach | *deep sigh* |
| 20:23.00 | goozbach | I feel my life is less amazing due to that fact |
| 20:23.13 | sjansen | The constitution guarantees separation of church and state. Which leaves anyone who believe that the settling of Utah was inspired with an interesting question. |
| 20:23.13 | fugue88 | goozbach: Don't worry, it is. |
| 20:23.16 | Jayce^ | hey, you got to play a little with us |
| 20:23.17 | fugue88 | :P |
| 20:23.43 | Jayce^ | sjansen: dont' see it as that interesting, being that they fleed the country |
| 20:23.48 | fugue88 | sjansen: Really? What's the intersting question? |
| 20:24.06 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: And then burned down military supply wagons. |
| 20:24.17 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: Kind of made their point, didn't they? ;-) |
| 20:24.17 | sjansen | There was a whole lot less separation in the early days of the founding. Either the founders of Utah were wrong, or the constitution is wrong, or the constitution is a compromise designed to adapt to reality. |
| 20:24.33 | fugue88 | Separation in what? |
| 20:24.41 | levi | sjansen: How about 'the interpretation of the establishment clause has changed'? |
| 20:25.10 | fugue88 | Throw that in with "freedom of expression." |
| 20:25.12 | Jayce^ | rsimpkins: of course, they were sent to deal with 'the mormon uprising', sensible defense |
| 20:26.10 | fugue88 | people should really *read* the Bill of Rights, instead of taking MSM sound bites. |
| 20:26.23 | fugue88 | Uh, I have people, I guess. |
| 20:27.15 | levi | sjansen: I agree with you, more or less, I just don't think you're getting anywhere with Jayce^ using this line of argument. |
| 20:28.22 | Jayce^ | for sure |
| 20:29.40 | levi | Not that I have a better one, I'm just pointing out that, based on a lot of arguments I've had myself and way too much time thinking about them, the disagreements that you have are rooted at a much more fundamental level. |
| 20:29.58 | *** join/#utah tristanbob_l (~tristan@oalug/member/tristanbob) |
| 20:33.18 | levi | For instance, why does Jayce^ think it is wrong in (nearly, at least) all cases for one person or group to compel another? Why does sjansen think it is okay in some circumstances, and how would those be defined? |
| 20:33.42 | Jayce^ | dealing with the budget right now should be like my current work project. A persons card is declined, I get a partial authorization for a lesser amount, then figure out what to cut and come in under that number |
| 20:34.29 | levi | Why should it be like that, as opposed to some other way? |
| 20:34.56 | Jayce^ | levi: spend less, dont' consider it easier to just lift the limit |
| 20:35.06 | Jayce^ | same thing each person should do themselves |
| 20:35.22 | levi | That's an explanation, not a justification. |
| 20:35.38 | goozbach | most people have to stop spending money when they run out of credit |
| 20:35.41 | goozbach | not the government |
| 20:35.56 | Jayce^ | and living on credit is not a valid lifestyle, it will always catch up |
| 20:35.59 | JoshH | but what do we cut? if not defense/medicare/ss, it won't make any difference |
| 20:36.04 | Jayce^ | ramsey++ |
| 20:36.04 | JoshH | (mostly defense) |
| 20:36.10 | Jayce^ | JoshH: all of them |
| 20:36.17 | JoshH | but those are what nobody seriously talks abotu cutting |
| 20:36.41 | JoshH | basically, we just need a much cheaper military |
| 20:36.45 | Jayce^ | JoshH: back to the beginning of the conversation.. both parties leverage the debt an programs for their own good |
| 20:36.48 | levi | Jayce^: What makes living on credit an 'invalid lifestyle', and why would the term 'invalid lifestyle' apply to the US Government, which does not properly have a 'lifestyle'? |
| 20:37.14 | Jayce^ | JoshH: which is why the militia was important to the founders :) limited the defense to more reasonable levels |
| 20:37.17 | sjansen | *sigh* Unfortunately, I'm doing end of class close out and I need to take off soon to the bask in the wonderful LA traffic. |
| 20:37.41 | JoshH | sjansen: head to the beach |
| 20:37.44 | lukfugl | I want to respond to the tangent about social programs and who's the fascist :) |
| 20:37.46 | Jayce^ | levi: because of economically sound principles |
| 20:37.51 | lukfugl | it seems to me the crux of the argument is whether social programs are constitutional. |
| 20:37.58 | lukfugl | if social programs are constitutional, sjansen wins, since the minority (including jayce^) must respect the constitutional will of the majority (as opposed to the unconstitutional will of the majority). |
| 20:38.03 | lukfugl | if social programs are not constitutional, jayce^ wins, because the majority must respect the constitution, even though they're the majority. |
| 20:38.04 | Jayce^ | sjansen: dont' try the 405/sepulveda :) |
| 20:38.07 | lukfugl | to that end, I have to side with sjansen. no matter how much jayce^ *wants* social programs to be unconstitutional, the vast majority of case law definitely stands on the other side |
| 20:38.22 | levi | Jayce^: That's a pretty vague answer. |
| 20:38.24 | lukfugl | regardless of moral opinions on the matter of social programs |
| 20:38.40 | Jayce^ | levi: hard to explain in IRC while working :) |
| 20:38.46 | levi | I think sjansen is right because of governmentally sound principles, which I will not elaborate on! ;) |
| 20:38.49 | JoshH | Jayce^: cutting the military too drastically is simply not going to happen, and neither will huge cuts to the other 2 major programs. it's just not practical and our government isn't competent and responsible enough, no matter what party runs it. |
| 20:38.57 | Jayce^ | lukfugl: but once again, that's case law, everything has changedf since that came in |
| 20:38.58 | lukfugl | levi :) |
| 20:39.11 | lukfugl | Jayce^: huh? |
| 20:39.21 | Jayce^ | JoshH: it's totally practical.. but your other two statements are very true |
| 20:39.23 | lukfugl | the practice of case law predates the founding |
| 20:39.47 | Jayce^ | lukfugl: no, the concept of case law for the US is more recent |
| 20:39.52 | levi | Yes, case law is the true foundation of our government. |
| 20:39.59 | lukfugl | and was definitely a principle the founders understood -- and accepted |
| 20:40.14 | JoshH | Jayce^: which means raising debt ceiling/raising taxes/using credit is the only realistic option and people should accept it and the politicians should stop the bs |
| 20:40.48 | Jayce^ | JoshH: no, it's the politically expedient way out for now.. |
| 20:41.09 | levi | The specific concept of Judical Review by the Supreme Court is more recent than the founding of the government, but not the principles of common/case law. |
| 20:41.21 | JoshH | there SHOULD be some sort of well planned, systematic cuts to the major programs with a solid timeline, but we won't get that by voting for ideological douchebags |
| 20:42.19 | Jayce^ | without them, there wouldn't be cuts at all |
| 20:42.32 | JoshH | im basically just amazed that our country functions at all and hasn't become like somalia yet |
| 20:43.30 | Jayce^ | because they're oh so similar eh? |
| 20:43.31 | levi | JoshH: It's because our government isn't actually run by ideological douchebags, for the most part. It's run by politicians, who pretend to be ideological douchebags to get elected, and then compromise on everything. |
| 20:43.48 | Jayce^ | compromise just winds up screwing everybody |
| 20:44.03 | lukfugl | /facepalm |
| 20:44.07 | levi | Yow. |
| 20:44.17 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 20:44.18 | fozzmoo | liberals are the devil, I think. ;-) |
| 20:44.24 | Jayce^ | bwahahaha |
| 20:44.30 | levi | Sure, but not as much as most everyone would be screwed without compromise. |
| 20:44.44 | Jayce^ | fails to see how |
| 20:44.55 | lukfugl | I will *NEVER* understand the "never compromise" position |
| 20:45.33 | Jayce^ | lukfugl: usually it's the 'comprimised too much already' position |
| 20:45.39 | lukfugl | lol |
| 20:45.41 | levi | Historically, most people who have developed ideologically consistent platforms have ended up being pretty wrong about something fundamental, which ends up invalidating a lot of their platform. |
| 20:45.44 | lukfugl | yeah, keep telling yourself that |
| 20:45.45 | JoshH | why not jsut have a king if we don't want any compromising? |
| 20:45.51 | lukfugl | JoshH++ |
| 20:46.09 | fozzmoo | We have one now. |
| 20:46.30 | lukfugl | uhhuh |
| 20:46.49 | JoshH | obviously we would all enjoy it if all the stuff we wanted was done without compromise, but we all want different things and we all have to deal with some compromise |
| 20:46.51 | Jayce^ | how about this great quote, "The american system of government is designed to be inefficient. And from that comes it's greatest strengths" |
| 20:46.56 | levi | Most of the great slaughters in history were born from 'no-compromise' sorts of leaders. |
| 20:46.58 | fozzmoo | Anyone seen the inside of the White House lately? It's just one picture of BHO after another. It's pretty sick. |
| 20:47.14 | levi | Jayce^: Nice, except that it's wrong. |
| 20:47.20 | Jayce^ | levi: why is that? |
| 20:47.41 | Jayce^ | it was given my one of my ultra-liberal teachers.. great guy really |
| 20:47.55 | lukfugl | Jayce^: compromise is hardly efficient, I don't see how that applies :) |
| 20:47.59 | levi | It was designed to be as efficient as possible while preserving the fundamental liberties the founders wanted to protect. And, like most good things, it was a compromise. |
| 20:48.39 | lukfugl | I'd rather say that the compromises that come out of the inefficiencies *are* the greatest strengths of the system |
| 20:48.40 | levi | Specifically, it was a reaction to the Articles of Confederation, which *were* designed to be inefficient to protect freedom, which turned out to be an utterly stupid thing to do. |
| 20:48.54 | Jayce^ | actually it was designed for many aspects of inefficiency, requiring much larger discussions, and agreements before anything could ever become law |
| 20:48.55 | fozzmoo | Funny thing - some liberals accuse me of trumping Jefferson and ignoring Hamilton's support of govt debt and central banks... |
| 20:49.11 | lukfugl | "and agreements" |
| 20:49.24 | lukfugl | = compromises |
| 20:49.43 | Jayce^ | or steadfast strength prevent comprimises when they are wrong :) |
| 20:49.51 | levi | Jayce^: Compare the Articles of Confederation to the Consitution, and tell me which one is designed for inefficiency and deadlocks. |
| 20:49.56 | fozzmoo | But Hamilton was pretty clear on the intended use of debt - to cover the expenses incurred in the Revolutionary War, to build a military force, and, later, for land purchases like the Louisiana Purchase. |
| 20:50.18 | lukfugl | and everything that's not perfectly aligned with a specific ideology is *obviously* wrong |
| 20:50.24 | Jayce^ | which is the real point of blocking comprimise.. you don't always meet halfway. only if it's benefical to both, and not simply for the sake of comprimise |
| 20:50.50 | fozzmoo | I really doubt Alexander Hamilton would have been in favor of the US govt going into debt to meet its obligations for entitlement programs. |
| 20:51.17 | JoshH | ya, but back in his day, it was considered no big deal to have to step over a dead person in the middle of a muddy road |
| 20:51.32 | levi | Jayce^: Well, yes, compromise can't always be reached, and the government still sometimes has to act, which is why most of the potential blocks to government action in the Constitution can be overridden. |
| 20:51.51 | levi | The Constitution is designed to enable government action, not prevent it. |
| 20:51.58 | Jayce^ | fozzmoo: like I was saying the other day, it's about the same as going into debt for your netflix subscription... 'but I neeeed it' |
| 20:52.06 | levi | It just tries to be careful in limiting that action. |
| 20:52.16 | levi | Limiting the scope, I should say. |
| 20:52.28 | Jayce^ | not prevent action, just delay, force extra checks |
| 20:52.35 | JoshH | our system isn't meant to be perfect, since no system can, it's just meant to work and make the country a reasonably decent place |
| 20:52.59 | Jayce^ | it's designed to guarantee individual liberty.. |
| 20:53.10 | JoshH | in some ways |
| 20:53.23 | levi | Jayce^: Not delay, even. The idea is to make sure action by the government is correctly motivated, not to slow it down. |
| 20:53.28 | fozzmoo | What? I thought it was supposed to make sure I had a house to live in... and a car... and a job... and retirement... and a slurpee! |
| 20:53.46 | fozzmoo | Am I not entitled to everything that will make me happy!? |
| 20:53.48 | fozzmoo | Why am I not happy? |
| 20:54.18 | JoshH | i would be happy if i could buy a keg at smiths |
| 20:55.07 | Jayce^ | well, that's a state, and county, not a fed issue :) but worth a different discussion |
| 20:55.39 | JoshH | utah does more to make me oppose "states rights" than anything |
| 20:55.51 | Jayce^ | then why choose to live here :) |
| 20:55.51 | findlay | fozzmoo: surely it's in the country's best interest that most people have those things. If everyone's unemployed and only a few people have all the money, they call that feudalism |
| 20:56.14 | Jayce^ | though the people you'd probably yell at for causing it have been some of the more outspoken against the restrictions you named |
| 20:56.30 | JoshH | Jayce^: you gotta weigh everything. family here, job here, house here, etc. it's ok to be aggravated over certain things without it being worth moving. |
| 20:57.06 | JoshH | i mostly just blame waddoups and valentine :) |
| 20:57.11 | levi | JoshH: That sounds like a compromise position to me. You must find more absolutes! |
| 20:57.34 | JoshH | levi: i just hope the situation doesn't require a second amendment solution! |
| 20:57.37 | findlay | JoshH: you could declare yourself immune to the UN |
| 21:06.01 | cbryant215 | I wish Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, and their combined followers would move to somewhere in Central/South America and explore a Flavor-Aid solution. |
| 21:06.24 | fugue88 | cbryant215: They should move to Alaska. Then Alaska should leave the Union. |
| 21:06.29 | fugue88 | :) |
| 21:06.51 | levi | cbryant215: Is there a reason you left Bachmann here? |
| 21:06.54 | fugue88 | In fact, it should go back to Russia. Palin understand Russia *very* well. |
| 21:07.01 | findlay | levi: do you know much about ARM? |
| 21:07.06 | fugue88 | s/tand/tands/ |
| 21:07.19 | cbryant215 | Bachmann would probably avoid Flavor-Aid and say it was Satanic. |
| 21:07.21 | levi | findlay: Well, I've used ARMs before. |
| 21:07.44 | findlay | do you think I'd have problems running an |
| 21:07.46 | fugue88 | findlay: Levi has two, in fact. |
| 21:07.50 | cbryant215 | And then start a ministry to combait its evil vices. |
| 21:08.52 | findlay | system with the armel ABI on top of a kernel which uses the older arm ABI? |
| 21:09.12 | fugue88 | watches his very lame joke gasp for breath, then die |
| 21:09.30 | levi | beats fugue88 with his powerful ARMs. :P |
| 21:09.47 | fugue88 | :) |
| 21:09.50 | findlay | no, no, ARM's are low power |
| 21:10.05 | levi | findlay: By armel, you mean arm-le? Or something else? |
| 21:11.26 | findlay | levi: all I know is that between debian etch and lenny they changed the arm and mips ABIs |
| 21:12.07 | findlay | thus creating releases for effectively new architectures |
| 21:12.38 | levi | Huh, I guess armel is the name of the Linux arch tree for ARM EABI. |
| 21:12.51 | levi | I don't recall having dealt with that issue. |
| 21:13.05 | levi | Mostly I use QNX for embedded stuff these days. |
| 21:13.07 | findlay | I'm running into enough problems running software that's 4 years old |
| 21:13.43 | findlay | and unfixed bugs that are 4 years old |
| 21:14.00 | findlay | nobody wants to waste time on the old ABI |
| 21:14.09 | jsmith | And then you end up with things like armv7hl (with or without neon instructions) |
| 21:14.16 | jsmith | hard float, soft float, etc. |
| 21:14.41 | levi | findlay: Sadly, the solution for embedded Linux problems is often to buy a BSP from a company that specializes in such things. |
| 21:14.44 | findlay | jsmith: you sound like a guy who knows stuff. Can you solve my problems? |
| 21:14.58 | findlay | levi: what's BSP? |
| 21:15.05 | levi | Board Support Package |
| 21:15.06 | jsmith | findlay: No, but you could ask some of the folks in #fedora-arm -- they're much smarter than I am :-/ |
| 21:15.44 | findlay | you and your embedded technobuzz acronymns |
| 21:15.54 | findlay | ETA |
| 21:38.50 | *** join/#utah NoCoolName_Tom (~NoCoolNam@63.82.19.2) |
| 22:48.28 | *** part/#utah NoCoolName_Tom (~NoCoolNam@63.82.19.2) |
| 23:15.11 | *** join/#utah NoCoolName_Tom (~NoCoolNam@63.82.19.2) |
| 23:24.30 | *** join/#utah NoCoolName_Tom (~NoCoolNam@63.82.19.2) |
| 23:26.43 | *** join/#utah Jayce^ (~Jayce^@199.30.185.160) |
| 23:26.43 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
| 23:39.01 | *** part/#utah NoCoolName_Tom (~NoCoolNam@63.82.19.2) |
| 23:42.50 | *** join/#utah bmidgley (~bmidgley@c-24-10-224-87.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 23:44.34 | *** join/#utah redbeard2 (~jphall@techhat.dsl.xmission.com) |