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| 00:06.04 | fozzmoo | Drupal's nice... until you want to do something outside of Drupal. :) |
| 00:06.13 | fozzmoo | Oh, and it's PHP... so there's that too. |
| 00:07.19 | solomojo | Fozzmoo you have no Idea what your talking about. You would probably program the thing in Pear |
| 00:07.24 | solomojo | :) |
| 00:07.27 | solomojo | Pearl |
| 00:07.34 | solomojo | Perl |
| 00:07.52 | solomojo | nice to see you here |
| 00:09.40 | fozzmoo | I'm always here. |
| 00:09.47 | fozzmoo | You might just need to wake me up though. |
| 00:10.02 | solomojo | Ok |
| 00:10.08 | Tene | ~lart fozzmoo |
| 00:10.08 | ibot | turns fozzmoo into a lifesized tux doll |
| 00:10.10 | Tene | like that |
| 00:10.19 | fozzmoo | I like that one. |
| 00:10.24 | Tene | that *usually* works, but sometimes you need to do it a few dozen times. |
| 00:10.43 | fozzmoo | Tene: heh. |
| 00:11.14 | fozzmoo | But, back to the topic at hand, yes, I would probably "program the thing" in Perl. :) |
| 00:11.21 | fozzmoo | and it would rock. |
| 00:11.47 | solomojo | yup it probably would. |
| 00:12.08 | Tene | Yeah, probably. |
| 00:12.27 | solomojo | see ya later fozz, it was good chatting with you |
| 00:12.33 | fozzmoo | solomojo: Bye! |
| 00:12.39 | fozzmoo | ~lart solomojo |
| 00:12.39 | ibot | crushes solomojo with a full height scsi disk |
| 00:12.58 | fozzmoo | Man, those things are huge. |
| 00:13.01 | solomojo | what? SCSI disk really |
| 00:13.12 | fozzmoo | SILENCE! You've been crushed. |
| 00:13.16 | fozzmoo | ;-) |
| 00:13.17 | solomojo | adios |
| 00:29.28 | Sargun_Screen | Comcast solutions just responses to my request for a 10 meg connection |
| 00:29.29 | Sargun_Screen | But my take-away from our meeting was that the 10 mg drop was a bit of an overkill and that a coax 22 or 50 mg pipe would be plenty for your current applications/needs. |
| 00:29.33 | Sargun_Screen | --What? |
| 00:37.30 | fugue88 | less is more? |
| 00:39.30 | Sargun_Screen | This man is a boss: http://victoria.en.craigslist.ca/fbh/2489510276.html |
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| 02:00.30 | *** topic/#utah is logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | turntable.fm/utah | minecraft multiplayer: plug.org | life is too short to remove usb safely |
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| 13:14.16 | albino | fun question for everyone. Anyone have access to a Netgear switch rackmount kit? I just need it for one side of a switch I'm trying to get racked. |
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| 13:41.34 | eightyeight | nay |
| 13:41.52 | eightyeight | although i've spent a good amount of time improvising rack mount solutions for various hardware |
| 13:45.32 | goozbach | albino: sheet metal and screws! |
| 13:50.44 | peno | which isn't far from what most rack mounts are |
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| 15:29.49 | sjansen | WTF? California is thinking about eliminating sales tax for online retailers? |
| 15:30.05 | sjansen | What do they think that will accomplish? |
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| 15:32.07 | fugue88 | Bring Amazon back. |
| 15:32.26 | fugue88 | Which well, uh, you know, help them... somehow. |
| 15:32.30 | JoshH | they think about a lot of things there |
| 15:32.34 | fugue88 | s/well/will/ |
| 15:33.06 | JoshH | sjansen: shouldn't you be using WTH (heck) instead? |
| 15:34.20 | sjansen | JoshH: What the flip are you talking about? |
| 15:34.45 | JoshH | heh, i guess that could work |
| 15:35.05 | sjansen | Oh my heck! You thought I was using that other word! |
| 15:35.21 | sjansen | I don't talk poop, you should know that by now. |
| 15:35.22 | Migs | An Austrian atheist has won the right to be shown on his driving-licence photo wearing a pasta strainer as "religious headgear". http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14135523 |
| 15:35.29 | brac | [BBC News - Austrian driver's religious headgear strains credulity] |
| 15:36.29 | JoshH | how did the flying spaghetti monster become a more popular joke religion than jedi? it's not right |
| 15:36.45 | eightyeight | Migs: when i got my license renewed, i was standing in line, and the lady asked "can i help you", to which i approached the counter, and put down the renewal form |
| 15:37.07 | eightyeight | she looked at me again, this time with impatience in her voice, and asked "can i help you!" |
| 15:37.27 | eightyeight | i looked at the form, looked at her, lookd back at the form and read "Driver license renewal application" |
| 15:37.40 | sjansen | The flying spaghetti monster has been part of the Internet forever. |
| 15:37.52 | eightyeight | as a result, she wasn't too happy with me, so i couldn't show excitement on my face when the photo was taken |
| 15:38.05 | eightyeight | she thought i was being a smart ass |
| 15:38.09 | JoshH | jedis predate the modern internet though |
| 15:38.09 | sjansen | The real question is why has the Church of the Subgenius declined so sharply. |
| 15:38.21 | sjansen | Personally, I blame it on all the cat pictures. |
| 15:38.39 | eightyeight | so, if you want to get away with crazy photos on your license, i recommend a gentler approach |
| 15:39.29 | JoshH | sjansen: because slackware is dead now, mostly |
| 15:39.58 | sjansen | Pastafarians are clearly trying to make a point. Jedi are more likely to just be extreme fans. |
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| 16:29.10 | eightyeight | https://plus.google.com/u/0/107276867598285658079/posts/KcJXYamu12X |
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| 16:59.52 | sjansen | Wow, Marsee from O'Reilly is still on Plug after all this time. |
| 17:07.31 | Migs | The DMV is where bad people go to work |
| 17:13.23 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
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| 17:24.13 | Migs | Disagree. |
| 17:28.08 | eightyeight | no thankyou |
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| 17:32.35 | jessie | Hey, any idea if there will be a Plug Meeting tonight? |
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| 17:36.14 | rsimpkin1 | No. |
| 17:36.16 | rsimpkin1 | No meeting. |
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| 17:42.09 | jessie | rsimpkin1: Dang! Why not? Just no presenters? |
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| 17:48.03 | rsimpkin1 | jessie: No, mostly my fault. PLUG has been really hard to devote time to latley. |
| 17:48.36 | rsimpkin1 | If you know someone who'd like to present, let's talk. |
| 18:03.30 | eightyeight | ~wtf gayfd |
| 18:03.39 | eightyeight | ~wtf gafyd |
| 18:03.43 | eightyeight | meh |
| 18:04.04 | eightyeight | ah. google apps for your domain |
| 18:04.14 | sjansen | rsimpkin1: I could present on $RANDOM next week. |
| 18:04.30 | sjansen | I'm traveling this week, so no good. |
| 18:05.34 | levi | I thought it meant a happy file descriptor. Oh well. |
| 18:07.15 | eightyeight | heh |
| 18:07.36 | levi | Huh, Comcast says they've increased my download speed for me. Just need to reboot my modem. |
| 18:07.53 | eightyeight | got the same message. 15 Mbps now |
| 18:08.06 | eightyeight | wonder if they changed the upload from 3 Mbps |
| 18:08.17 | levi | Mine's 25Mbps. |
| 18:08.20 | sjansen | rsimpkin1: My favorite topics include... shell scripting, basic regex, SELinux, basic RAID & LVM, PAM, LDAP fundamentals |
| 18:09.00 | sjansen | If you want something more cutting edge, I've been playing with node.js and could probably do a little more than an hour on it. |
| 18:09.00 | levi | Ew, shell scripting. |
| 18:09.12 | levi | Yay, node.js! |
| 18:10.32 | fadein | levi: how did you get the message from Comcast? Your comcast.com email, or via snailmail? |
| 18:10.32 | cbryant215 | Anyone know if downtown SLC has better DSL speeds than Sugarhouse? |
| 18:10.53 | sjansen | I've also played with Erlang and Go, so I could do a basic compare and contrast. Not enough to do a deep comparison yet. |
| 18:11.03 | levi | fadein: Yeah, apparently it came to my comcast.com email, which I have them forward to my gmail account. |
| 18:11.28 | eightyeight | levi: 25? are you on their performance tier, or something? |
| 18:11.33 | sjansen | I also enjoy chocolate cake and long hikes in the mountains. |
| 18:11.35 | fadein | ah, there it is |
| 18:11.36 | levi | eightyeight: Yeah, I think so. |
| 18:11.43 | fadein | but mine's from XFINITY! |
| 18:11.56 | eightyeight | ok |
| 18:11.58 | cbryant215 | I get 7Mbit in Sugarhouse now. |
| 18:11.58 | fadein | that means unlimited everything... except for the things they limit |
| 18:12.34 | fadein | hey, but it says I'm okay to download (not stream) TV shows and music |
| 18:12.42 | fadein | I may hold them to that ;) |
| 18:13.06 | levi | fadein: I think they mean to download legal copies from iTunes or Amazon or whatever. :) |
| 18:13.56 | levi | I'm fairly sure that unauthorized downloading of copyrighted material is still against the TOS. |
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| 18:18.45 | fadein | I was referring to this TechDirt story (took me a long time to find it- was over a week ago) http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110707/10173014998/major-us-isps-agree-to-five-strikes-plan-rather-than-three.shtml |
| 18:19.05 | fadein | I was just surprised that they used that language... sounds encouraging |
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| 18:26.34 | sjansen | ARGH! |
| 18:26.54 | sjansen | The designers of the iPad2 could've done a little more testing of corner cases. |
| 18:27.24 | levi | What do you mean? |
| 18:27.34 | levi | And... you have an iPad2?! |
| 18:27.56 | sjansen | Repeatedly popup of a modal certificate dialog is less than ideal while trying to authenticate to hotel wireless. |
| 18:29.46 | sjansen | Yes I have an iPad2. |
| 18:30.08 | levi | Did you buy it, or was it given to you? |
| 18:30.09 | sjansen | I've wanted a freaking tablet since 1998, but they've all been completely crap until the iPad. |
| 18:31.05 | rsimpkin1 | eightyeight, levi - do you still have incredibly bad latency? |
| 18:31.05 | levi | You are sjansen. The iPad2 is by Apple. I was not aware that these were compatible. |
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| 18:31.48 | levi | rsimpkin1: I don't think my comcast latency is incredibly bad. It's way better than the crappy DSL latency I had with Qwest+xmission. |
| 18:31.49 | eightyeight | rsimpkin1: no. i have ~30ms ping times |
| 18:32.37 | sjansen | When the iPad came out, I thought that other companies would quickly learn from Apple and come out with something cheaper. |
| 18:32.42 | levi | Maybe Qwest on their fiber backbone actually works decently, but whatever infrastructure they had me on was total crap and getting worse. |
| 18:32.56 | rsimpkin1 | eightyeight: To where? Try plug.org and let me know what you get. |
| 18:33.04 | cbryant215 | levi: Where did you live? |
| 18:33.17 | rsimpkin1 | please. sorry. eating lunch + typing == rude |
| 18:33.30 | levi | cbryant215: Lehi. |
| 18:33.35 | cbryant215 | Some areas are still on old Mountain Bell copper, whether Qwest will admit that or not. |
| 18:33.37 | levi | rsimpkin1: I get about 47ms to plug.org |
| 18:33.45 | sjansen | Little did I suspect how long Google would take to improve Android. Nor did I suspect that Google's flagship partner would still screw it up with overprices crap hardware. |
| 18:34.29 | eightyeight | rsimpkin1: averaging about 44ms to plug.org |
| 18:34.29 | levi | Yeah, Android is kind of crap, unfortunately. |
| 18:34.50 | rsimpkin1 | That's much better than the 80+ I was getting a year ago. |
| 18:34.53 | eightyeight | sjansen: levi: what is crap about it? |
| 18:35.02 | rsimpkin1 | Maybe it is time to give comcast another try. |
| 18:35.38 | levi | I mean, it's okay, and you can do all sorts of neat things with it, but the experience feels kind of like the not-terribly-stable days of Windows. |
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| 18:36.32 | eightyeight | levi: yeah. i've had some force closes, mostly on stuff that came shipped with the phone (sprint tv is the worst) |
| 18:36.57 | eightyeight | but, rooting the phone and removing all that crapware greatly stablized my experience |
| 18:37.00 | levi | eightyeight: Mine regularly decides it can't play any media files anymore until I reboot it. |
| 18:37.17 | eightyeight | levi: what device and os version? |
| 18:37.42 | levi | I have a Samsung Vibrant with the latest official 2.2 release, IIRC. |
| 18:37.55 | eightyeight | my bishop's wife has the lg optimus s, and i guess the whole os freezes quite regularly for her |
| 18:38.03 | eightyeight | but my wife's optimus s hasn't frozen once |
| 18:38.17 | sjansen | So long story short, a couple months ago I sucked up my pride and bought an iPad2. |
| 18:38.18 | eightyeight | makes me wownder if it's the whole 'firefox extensions' argument |
| 18:38.53 | eightyeight | (referring to specific apps, not actual firefox extensions on android) |
| 18:38.56 | sjansen | It's incredibly awesome and I love it deeply. Too bad about the whole Apple stranglehold, but maybe in a few years things will look different. |
| 18:38.58 | levi | sjansen: So, aside from this current frustration with hotel Wifi, what do you think? |
| 18:39.13 | levi | Heh. |
| 18:39.46 | sjansen | When the network behaves as expected, the iPad is the best wireless experience I've ever had. |
| 18:40.03 | sjansen | (Although the latest NetworkManager is a close second.) |
| 18:40.08 | levi | What Apple stranglehold? Is it a stranglehold when you make the first device and no one else can make anything as good for a lower price? |
| 18:40.46 | sjansen | Sadly, when things don't work as expected, Apples designed did a piss poor job of including any sort of compensation. |
| 18:41.16 | levi | That is one downside of Apple's design strategy. |
| 18:41.54 | sjansen | I bought it primarily because of OmniFocus, which is worth every penny. |
| 18:42.06 | levi | But if Apple stuff does what you need to do out of the box, they are pretty much the best. |
| 18:42.26 | sjansen | I was surprised by how much I love Read It Later Pro. |
| 18:42.49 | sjansen | I was surprised how much I enjoy just sitting on the sofa surfing the web with it. |
| 18:43.07 | levi | I hadn't heard of OmniFocus, but I'm a huge fan of the Omni Group's software in general. |
| 18:43.43 | sjansen | I was surprised just how nice it was to have a grocery shopping app with me in the store. |
| 18:44.05 | sjansen | I was surprised by how badly it sucked for taking hand written notes. |
| 18:44.14 | levi | Heh. |
| 18:44.21 | sjansen | So far, though, that's the only big disappointment. |
| 18:44.40 | levi | Yeah, capacitive multitouch screens aren't optimized for writing. |
| 18:44.43 | sjansen | I pretty much expected to occasionally hate the way it makes me feel powerless when something goes wrong. |
| 18:45.16 | sjansen | Oh, and GoodReader. |
| 18:45.18 | levi | Android isn't particularly better in that respect, though. |
| 18:46.17 | sjansen | Between GoodReader and Read It Later Pro, it's pretty much the ultimate in portable reading device since I'm still not sold on Kindle. |
| 18:46.40 | levi | Dinking around with the open source system-level stuff is likely to break more things than it stabilizes in Android. |
| 18:47.04 | sjansen | The iPad has even gotten me to play computer games occasionally. |
| 18:47.26 | levi | Angry Birds? ;) |
| 18:47.39 | sjansen | I despise Angry Birds, but Osmos is amazing. |
| 18:48.03 | levi | Oh, c'mon, Angry Birds is fun. You're just being contrarian. |
| 18:48.51 | sjansen | I kinda enjoyed it for the first hour, but after a while I got tired of firing birds in essentially random directions and hoping to get lucky. |
| 18:49.18 | sjansen | Some of the puzzles require finer control than can be easily achived using a touch interface. |
| 18:49.45 | levi | You just have fat fingers, apparently. ;) |
| 18:50.18 | sjansen | Perhaps. I'm also not inclined to be very patient with most games. |
| 18:50.45 | levi | I don't actually play many games on my Android phone anymore. |
| 18:51.17 | levi | I mostly just read RSS feed stuff and check email and do an occasional web search. |
| 18:53.11 | eightyeight | http://www.onlineschools.org/state-of-the-internet/soti.html |
| 18:53.12 | brac | [State Of The Internet 2011] |
| 18:54.34 | levi | eightyeight: No Google+! ;) |
| 18:54.39 | eightyeight | indeed |
| 18:54.40 | eightyeight | heh |
| 18:55.02 | eightyeight | but, while we're at it: https://plus.google.com/117777908934895049975/posts/Jtdbyo6WVAJ |
| 18:55.09 | levi | Poor friendster. |
| 18:55.24 | eightyeight | how the mighty have fallen |
| 18:55.27 | cbryant215 | I really like + so far. |
| 18:56.39 | levi | eightyeight: Heh, funny. |
| 19:04.18 | sjansen | For some reason I'm actually more willing to consider Google+ than FB. |
| 19:04.35 | sjansen | Which doesn't make much sense. |
| 19:04.58 | sjansen | But I'd still prefer a shotgun and a front porch. |
| 19:05.00 | eightyeight | at least you have data liberation |
| 19:05.45 | eightyeight | and no arrogant snobbery about selling your data to advertisers |
| 19:05.50 | eightyeight | at least not yet |
| 19:05.51 | sjansen | With FB at least I would know where I stand. |
| 19:06.08 | eightyeight | heh |
| 19:06.20 | eightyeight | quicksand isn't where i would place my footing personally. ã |
| 19:07.00 | sjansen | FB doesn't care about my privacy. They'll betray me at the drop of a hat. I'm a resource to be exploited. |
| 19:07.34 | lukfugl | eightyeight: "selling your data to advertisers", they don't need to. they *are* the advertiser ;) |
| 19:07.46 | eightyeight | touché |
| 19:08.16 | sjansen | Google is less predictable. Where FB has the potential to build a frightening globe spanning network to monitor my every action, Google is already done building one. |
| 19:08.45 | unum | I read banks are going to start doing the same thing |
| 19:08.53 | unum | it was in the trib yesterday |
| 19:08.59 | unum | actually mine already does it..... |
| 19:08.59 | sjansen | Google cares more about privacy for now, but who believes that'll last if they replace FB? |
| 19:09.09 | eightyeight | agreed |
| 19:09.48 | *** part/#utah mindjuju (~mindjuju@173-10-26-193-BusName-utah.ut.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 19:09.51 | sjansen | And I'm still not convinced that any social network (other than maybe LinkedIn) will make my life better. |
| 19:10.41 | levi | It's kind of eerie how good banks are at detecting fraud, though. |
| 19:11.39 | lukfugl | if "provides a way to kill time/procrastinate" â "things that make my life better", then social networks definitely count :) |
| 19:11.42 | sjansen | Between Hulu and IRC, I'm already able to meet my daily need for voyeurism and exhibitionism. |
| 19:12.17 | sjansen | Throw in Plug and my cup runneth over. |
| 19:12.27 | jsmith | No, that's the anti-social network |
| 19:12.32 | jsmith | ducks and hides |
| 19:12.46 | sjansen | ~whack jsmith |
| 19:12.46 | ibot | ACTION whacks jsmith upside the head. |
| 19:13.15 | jsmith | I rest my case, your honor. The prosecution has no further questions for this witness. |
| 19:14.55 | sjansen | Whoa, search for a cooking term and Google will let you refine your search by ingredients. |
| 19:15.17 | sjansen | And now that I know how to spell it... |
| 19:15.21 | sjansen | ~fricassee jsmith |
| 19:15.33 | sjansen | is disappointed but not surprised |
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| 20:05.16 | resplin | I really want a Meego tablet. |
| 20:08.42 | levi | Why is that? |
| 20:09.04 | Jayce^ | levi: why eerie? there's a lot of work in it.. |
| 20:09.40 | resplin | Android is a Linux core, with a non-Linux standard UI and application layer. Meego is a normal Linux desktop optimized for mobile devices and touch interaction. |
| 20:09.45 | Jayce^ | I still say it'd get a lot better if they worked more with merchants instead of treating them like B#%@es |
| 20:10.05 | resplin | There are a couple of Linux applications I would love on my phone, and a couple of Android applications I would love on Linux. Meego lets the two coexist. |
| 20:11.03 | jsmith | Not as much as you'd think |
| 20:11.21 | jsmith | To be able to use the Meego trademarks, you basically have to use exactly what's in MeeGo, nothing more, nothing less |
| 20:11.39 | jsmith | went through all that trying to do the MeeGo for Fedora stuff |
| 20:11.57 | resplin | Interesting. I didn't know that. |
| 20:12.09 | resplin | still waiting for tablet nirvana |
| 20:12.58 | levi | Jayce^: I know there's a lot of work to it, and I appreciate it. It's just eerie that they know how to differentiate my purchase patterns from fraud. Either fraud is more predictable than I would have thought, or my purchase patterns are less odd than I thought. ;) |
| 20:14.38 | Jayce^ | probably much less odd when you look at all the information available |
| 20:15.00 | levi | Jayce^: Yes, but all the information available is part of what makes it a bit eerie. |
| 20:15.34 | Jayce^ | when you tie in information like Visa class III, they can get really specific.. |
| 20:16.38 | Jayce^ | what really sucks is how much more merchants could do if they'd open up API's.. Having been on both sides I hate having to reinvent wheels when doing merchant side fraud screening :( |
| 20:16.50 | Jayce^ | but, we do get it right a lot of the time |
| 20:17.01 | cbryant215 | Fraud is pretty easy to spot. |
| 20:17.19 | Jayce^ | sometimes.. but for sure not all |
| 20:17.21 | cbryant215 | Binge shopping, merchants that are not part of the norm, etc. |
| 20:17.22 | levi | The fact that the information is avaialble and put to effective use in fraud prevention is one of the things that makes me somewhat okay with the fact that all my purchase information is available for analysis. |
| 20:17.54 | cbryant215 | Most people limit their shopping to a very specific list of places. |
| 20:18.25 | Jayce^ | cbryant215: not part of the norm rules break down easily when internet shopping, defining norm took a lot of hits since the late 90's |
| 20:18.45 | cbryant215 | Even internet shopping has trends. |
| 20:18.57 | cbryant215 | For example: Most of mine is done at Amazon. |
| 20:19.08 | Jayce^ | then as a merchant, you have the fun of reverse fraud, and proving that to banks.. strongly growing trend |
| 20:19.09 | eightyeight | meh. tablets. |
| 20:19.13 | levi | resplin: For me, a tablet is not the sort of device that I want to have that level of control over. I don't have the time to deal with the inevitable conflicts and incompatibilities and whatnot. I prefer the Apple model for that kind of device. |
| 20:19.19 | eightyeight | i'm not sold on them as daily computing devices |
| 20:19.30 | eightyeight | i expect their destiny to be the same as the pda |
| 20:19.33 | Jayce^ | cbryant215: oh, it gets done, I've been doing it for years, but it's an 80/20 type of situation |
| 20:19.48 | cbryant215 | That said, having a $250 tab at a bar you've never spent money at before is a good way to get a phone call the next day. |
| 20:19.56 | levi | They're not computing devices, they're portable media and web access panels. |
| 20:20.10 | eightyeight | meh |
| 20:20.15 | eightyeight | they're a phase |
| 20:20.28 | Jayce^ | levi: agreed, though I'd also call them business/email triage devices.. |
| 20:20.43 | Jayce^ | I dont' want to do real work, but very handy to triage |
| 20:20.57 | eightyeight | i'd call them gaming platforms |
| 20:21.33 | levi | Jayce^: Well, the physical platform is flexible enough to accomodate some different use cases, but they're not really suited to really general-purpose computing. |
| 20:21.52 | levi | They shine when they're set up to do a few things really well. |
| 20:36.58 | goozbach | say goodbuy to 15min of productivity: http://open.adaptedstudio.com/hunting_arrows/ |
| 20:36.58 | brac | [Eric Ishii Eckhardt / Hunting Arrows] |
| 20:41.21 | sjansen | I really want a Meego tablet too. Assuming they continue polishing the UI. And the hardware doesn't suck. |
| 20:41.47 | sjansen | Which is a lot to hope for right now, so I'm not holding my breath. |
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| 20:44.41 | sjansen | eightyeight: I hope you're wrong, because I love my PDA. |
| 20:44.54 | sjansen | s/PDA/tablet/ |
| 20:45.00 | findlay | I want a tablet so that I can take TWM with me wherever I go |
| 20:45.32 | sjansen | I suspect you are wrong. In retrospect the core problem with the PDA is obvious. Tiny screen with no communication. |
| 20:45.53 | sjansen | But if you count smart phones, the PDA is still kicking. Evolved and stronger than ever. |
| 20:46.13 | sjansen | You're right that tablets are for gaming, but that's just the start. |
| 20:46.30 | Jayce^ | right, you can't forget t3h kitt3h's |
| 20:46.35 | sjansen | I didn't think browsing the Web on a tablet would be any different than my laptop. |
| 20:46.38 | sjansen | I was wrong. |
| 20:46.59 | sjansen | Browsing with a tablet is _so_ right. |
| 20:47.14 | sjansen | The laptop is more powerful, but the tablet is more comfortable on the sofa. |
| 20:47.55 | sjansen | I also enjoy watching video on my tablet, but then I'm willing to watch Hulu so obviously video quality isn't important to me. |
| 20:48.32 | sjansen | If all you do is answer email and hold meetings, a tablet could become your primary device. |
| 20:48.34 | resplin | And power is quest a question of time. |
| 20:48.45 | resplin | s/quest/question |
| 20:48.46 | sjansen | If all you do is light data entry, a tablet could be your primary device. |
| 20:48.51 | resplin | doh |
| 20:48.55 | resplin | And power is just a question of time |
| 20:49.08 | sjansen | Those two descriptions cover _a lot_ of people. |
| 20:49.34 | sjansen | No way a tablet could replace my laptop, but for somethings the tablet is already my preferred solution. |
| 20:50.03 | levi | The light data entry thing is a big deal when you start talking about highly-customizable systems like Linux. Tablets just don't have the input bandwidth for tinkering. |
| 20:50.10 | eightyeight | i guess the pda morphed into the smartphone |
| 20:50.11 | sjansen | resplin: I assume you mean battery life? Also an important factor. The iPad2's batter live is miraculous. |
| 20:50.58 | eightyeight | my wife has an ipad v1, and it's okay |
| 20:51.45 | eightyeight | but of the hoardes of people i've seen with one, they're either 1) playing a game or 2) reading a book |
| 20:52.04 | eightyeight | the true power of the hardware doesn't seem to be tapped into by most |
| 20:52.28 | eightyeight | not that i care, but i would imagine most people would think "gee, $600 for a gameboy sure is a lot of money. maybe i don't need it after all" |
| 20:53.09 | levi | It's not about the 'true power of the hardware'. |
| 20:53.16 | levi | You're thinking like a tech geek. |
| 20:53.20 | Jayce^ | as compared to the people who use their desktops to check their webmail |
| 20:53.21 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 20:53.27 | levi | iPads are not designed for tech geeks. |
| 20:53.38 | sjansen | I don't care about the power. I care about the form factor. |
| 20:53.48 | eightyeight | okay |
| 20:53.57 | sjansen | Yes, the price is steep. That's why I was hoping someone else would come out with something decent. |
| 20:54.00 | eightyeight | $600 is a lot to spend just to browse kittens on your sofa |
| 20:54.15 | sjansen | But after a decade and a half of waiting, I couldn't take it anymmore. |
| 20:54.23 | levi | iPads are designed for people who want to browse the web or watch youtube videos or read books. |
| 20:54.32 | sjansen | And still being single, I do have a bit of spare changing kicking around. |
| 20:54.41 | eightyeight | which ultimately, i believe was the real downfall of the pda: people got tired of spending $400 every year to update their calendar and address book |
| 20:54.50 | sjansen | As for everyone else spending $600 on the iPad, yeah they're insane. |
| 20:55.04 | eightyeight | meh |
| 20:55.04 | levi | Nah, the downfall of the PDA is when the functionality got integrated with phones. |
| 20:55.16 | findlay | but, TWM |
| 20:55.16 | sjansen | Hopefully no one notices though, until they've funded the development of cheaper solutions. |
| 20:55.23 | levi | More people have PDAs than ever. |
| 20:55.24 | Jayce^ | levi: agreed |
| 20:55.54 | findlay | the PDA will downfall unless TWM |
| 20:56.05 | findlay | teal window manager |
| 20:56.09 | eightyeight | they're not pdas though. they're smartphones. just as disco died and club dance was born, the pda died and the smartphone was born |
| 20:56.25 | eightyeight | but, i see your point |
| 20:56.52 | findlay | but teal was never popular during either the disco era or the club era |
| 20:57.29 | levi | $600 is a lot, but not really terrible. If all you do with your PC is watch youtube videos and browse the web, $600 is pretty decent for a way-more-convenient replacement for that ugly box on your desk. |
| 20:57.54 | eightyeight | also, once jobs kicks the bucket (which seems likely given his health), apple will stop being über successful |
| 20:58.17 | eightyeight | jobs is visionary, as their company history has shown. even with next |
| 20:58.35 | levi | Well, they will eventually lose their way, but it'll take a little while. |
| 20:59.06 | eightyeight | i applaud jobs for turning the company around in such short time |
| 20:59.43 | eightyeight | (even if i don't care how the company turned out) |
| 21:00.01 | levi | Being a visionary means you're planning for the future, not the next quarterly earnings statement. So I imagine things are in motion right now that will carry Apple forward for a good while. |
| 21:00.05 | eightyeight | anyway, tablets just seem like a phase, that won't set in long term |
| 21:00.10 | eightyeight | agreed |
| 21:00.30 | mheath | I don't think tablets are a phase, at all. |
| 21:00.36 | lukfugl | I disagree w.r.t tablets as a phase |
| 21:00.39 | levi | Hey, it's mheath! |
| 21:00.42 | eightyeight | the ipad is cool, no doubt, but i doubt they reach the next decade |
| 21:00.51 | eightyeight | imo |
| 21:00.57 | levi | I don't think tablets are any more a phase than smartphones are. |
| 21:01.06 | mheath | ipad != tablets in general |
| 21:01.13 | eightyeight | of course |
| 21:01.17 | mheath | the ipad, at least in its current incarnation and software is a phase |
| 21:01.25 | levi | iPad = the successful tablet, so far. |
| 21:01.32 | mheath | Tablets in general, not so much |
| 21:01.43 | lukfugl | they might not reach the next decade in their current form, but if not, it'll be because the next evolutionary step has been taken, and you *will* be able to say tablet:new form :: pda:smartphone |
| 21:01.54 | mheath | Tablets won't replace the desktop computer |
| 21:02.02 | mheath | I love my dual monitors at work, and my keyboard and mouse |
| 21:02.03 | eightyeight | not saying they will |
| 21:02.03 | unum | http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2011/language-from-games-0712.html |
| 21:02.05 | findlay | I prefer to think of tablets as out of phase |
| 21:02.06 | levi | I think they will for some people. |
| 21:02.07 | unum | that's huge |
| 21:02.18 | levi | Not for tech geeks, computer gamers, etc. though. |
| 21:02.19 | mheath | But they definitely have a huge role |
| 21:02.23 | lukfugl | unum: woah |
| 21:02.40 | eightyeight | although, i read a stat that said something to the effect of 20% of smartphone owners use their phone as their primary computer |
| 21:02.45 | unum | I can only work on a desktop everything else slows me down |
| 21:02.55 | findlay | unum: you need more TWM |
| 21:03.03 | unum | TWM? |
| 21:03.14 | levi | findlay: Dude, TWM sucks. Gotta at least use FVWM. |
| 21:03.16 | findlay | yes! |
| 21:03.22 | eightyeight | openbox ftw |
| 21:03.29 | findlay | endarkenment |
| 21:03.45 | eightyeight | they released e17 |
| 21:03.57 | mheath | is it still broken and silly? |
| 21:03.58 | eightyeight | a bit too late though, if you ask me |
| 21:04.33 | eightyeight | mheath: my understanding is the libraries are actually stable, which is why they did a rewrite of everything |
| 21:04.36 | unum | oh that type of desktop |
| 21:04.37 | unum | :p |
| 21:04.46 | eightyeight | but, i don't run it. not interested |
| 21:04.55 | unum | I haven't used enlightenment in a long time |
| 21:04.56 | mheath | eightyeight, I seem to remember them doing 2 or 3 rewrites |
| 21:04.56 | levi | findlay: I see lots of Findlays on Google+, but not you. Are you not on there yet? |
| 21:05.10 | findlay | levi: 0 |
| 21:05.12 | mheath | I ran E17 once, and when I came back to it a year later noticed that everythign was shockingly different |
| 21:05.18 | eightyeight | e16 was too much work to get configured, and i'm too old to care for that sort of thing these days |
| 21:05.31 | eightyeight | if e17 is anything like that, that is |
| 21:05.38 | findlay | endarkenment is the only WM that actually does what I want |
| 21:05.45 | findlay | everything else manages to get it wrong |
| 21:05.59 | levi | I lost interest in Enlightenment shortly after the "pool of water" effect at the bottom of the screen got old back in the mid 90s or something. |
| 21:06.47 | eightyeight | bling just gets in the way |
| 21:07.02 | eightyeight | even for apple |
| 21:07.08 | eightyeight | now, we've come full circle |
| 21:07.10 | levi | That kind of bling, anyway. |
| 21:07.34 | findlay | ~bling eightyeight |
| 21:07.34 | ibot | ACTION flashes his bling at eightyeight, much to the chagrin of findlay |
| 21:07.49 | levi | Apple has kind of lost their UI consistency and purity, but some of their visual effects are still justified. |
| 21:08.30 | findlay | they need to get back to the stainless steel look |
| 21:08.36 | findlay | with rust |
| 21:10.37 | findlay | actually, the reason I started using enlightenment was because I could get rid of all the effects garbage |
| 21:11.07 | findlay | no bling, no animation, not even 3D UI appearance |
| 21:11.17 | findlay | kind of like the classic apple look, but not as ugly |
| 21:11.23 | eightyeight | i don't have that with openbox by default. ã |
| 21:11.34 | findlay | nice |
| 21:12.01 | findlay | and I wanted to cursor wrap between virtual screens |
| 21:12.03 | eightyeight | although, there isn't much by default either |
| 21:12.10 | findlay | but don't tell sjansen |
| 21:15.47 | resplin | sjansen: You mentioned that a laptop is more powerful than a tablet. I meant that the gab will close, as tablet computing horsepower increases over time. |
| 21:16.29 | resplin | Doh, I meant gap. I forget that IRC doesn't allow edit, and my client doesn't spellcheck. I got lazy. |
| 21:16.41 | Migs | no, because laptops will continue to get more powerful |
| 21:16.46 | findlay | I prefer gab |
| 21:17.24 | findlay | mine is so powerful that it's powered by a fusion reactor |
| 21:17.35 | Migs | resplin: Normally when people make typos, they just go: *gap ... you don't need a long drawn out explanation and apology and in-depth analysis on why you pressed the "b" key instead of the "p" key. |
| 21:17.36 | resplin | Migs: Just like desktops are still more powerful than laptops, but laptops are now all 95% of people need. |
| 21:17.46 | findlay | and it can order pizza too |
| 21:18.06 | resplin | Migs: understood. I've had a lot of typos today. Sorry to waste your time. <grin> |
| 21:18.07 | levi | The only technology that would enable a tablet to be as powerful as a laptop would be a revolutionary bump in energy storage density. |
| 21:18.21 | resplin | levi: it'll happen. |
| 21:18.30 | Migs | resplin: I'll send you a bill |
| 21:18.44 | findlay | Migs: read my comment that has no substance whatsoever, haha |
| 21:19.02 | Migs | I'm just going to send a group bill to #utah |
| 21:19.07 | levi | resplin: I'd love for it to happen, but it's not exactly on the roadmap like silicon miniaturization is. |
| 21:19.13 | Migs | you can all decide how you want to reimburse me collectively |
| 21:19.20 | findlay | levi: a bump in energy density could put a single stage craft into orbit |
| 21:19.22 | goozbach | levi: or a different paradigm for computing and awesome wireless network bandwidth |
| 21:19.41 | goozbach | a plan9 like OS would be pretty freaking awesome on a tablet |
| 21:20.02 | findlay | goozbach: they tried that with OLPC? |
| 21:20.41 | levi | That wouldn't make the tablet as powerful as the laptop. You can't arbitrarily export compute tasks to remote stations. |
| 21:21.20 | findlay | levi: well, if people were more willing to do calculations in their head, then you might be able to make it up |
| 21:21.56 | findlay | just use your imagination! |
| 21:22.01 | findlay | who needs computers? |
| 21:22.25 | levi | Wireless is a fundamentally limited technology as well. There's a finite amount of actual radio bandwidth, and interference is a fact of nature. |
| 21:22.43 | findlay | you need to use subspace |
| 21:22.57 | levi | Oh, right, I should have thought of that. |
| 21:23.56 | findlay | Tesla antennas have magical powers |
| 21:24.10 | findlay | you could try one of those |
| 21:25.55 | resplin | My kids will think a desktop is the station with the 4 monitors that you plug your tablet/phone into when you need to work. |
| 21:26.49 | resplin | And they will wonder how we got anything done without connect gestures. |
| 21:26.54 | resplin | But the keyboard will still be in use. |
| 21:28.20 | findlay | "computer: type the characters 'l' 's' space '-' 'l' 'a' '\n'" |
| 21:28.34 | findlay | seems a little awkward |
| 21:30.20 | resplin | That's why keyboards will still be in use. |
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| 21:30.40 | eightyeight | as long as i can keep my das, i won't complain |
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| 21:30.55 | resplin | I doubt neural interfaces will be come commonplace in my lifetime though. |
| 21:32.32 | eightyeight | if anything, we'll see the tablet and computer merge: computer interfaces will develop more tablet-like features, and vice-versa |
| 21:32.44 | eightyeight | maybe you'll purchase a computer monitor/tablet combo |
| 21:35.22 | eightyeight | i just don't see the tablet as a long lasting device in the life of computing/gaming/ebook-reading/etc life |
| 21:35.40 | eightyeight | it's successful now, because it's apple, and they executed well. but what about motorola, htc, the others? |
| 21:35.53 | eightyeight | what happens when jobs dies, or apple stop producing them? |
| 21:36.11 | eightyeight | i just don't see long term success for that form factor |
| 21:37.35 | resplin | Watching non-technical people play with a tablet really opened my eyes. I don't have one yet, but I can see the value now. |
| 21:38.01 | rsimpkins | le sigh. "I refuse to help Barack Obama get re-elected by marching Republicans into a position where we have co-ownership of a bad economy." - Mitch McConnell |
| 21:38.29 | rsimpkins | And that, Mitch, is the freakin' problem. No one wants to be responsible for anything. Let's just blame the next guy. |
| 21:39.37 | levi | Let's look to the welfare of the Republican (or Democratic) parties ahead of the people of the USA. :P |
| 21:40.33 | findlay | I want a computer/desk combo, where the desktop is literally the desktop |
| 21:41.32 | resplin | I felt better after watching this (VERY strong language): |
| 21:41.36 | resplin | http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-july-11-2011/have-no-fear--england-s-here |
| 21:42.53 | rsimpkins | I think we should vote presidents like we do on american idol. Let's just have a big talent contest and whoever does the best song and dance wins. |
| 21:43.14 | rsimpkins | Oh wait, isn't that what we do? |
| 21:43.33 | findlay | they don't sing that much, though |
| 21:43.37 | findlay | we need more singing |
| 21:44.10 | rsimpkins | findlay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML7S5pb8Tis&feature=sh_e_sl&list=SL |
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| 21:49.15 | sjansen | eightyeight: You keep ignoring the form factor. |
| 21:49.37 | sjansen | I can hold the iPad in my hand comfortably, but not a laptop. |
| 21:50.00 | sjansen | I can fit the iPad in my grocery cart and use it as a super expensive shopping list, but not a laptop. |
| 21:50.32 | sjansen | I can toss the iPad in my backpack and not even notice the weight, but not a laptop. |
| 21:51.10 | goozbach | sjansen: yes, but can you play zsnes with a ps3 controller on your silly ipad? |
| 21:51.12 | goozbach | no! |
| 21:51.16 | goozbach | but I can on my laptop! |
| 21:51.17 | goozbach | :) |
| 21:51.30 | sjansen | Netbooks are the fad. |
| 21:51.44 | sjansen | Tablets are here to stay, as companion devices just like smart phones. |
| 21:52.13 | sjansen | No one (of any real intelligence) claims that smart phones will replace laptops. |
| 21:52.17 | eightyeight | i see more netbooks on campus than ipads |
| 21:52.40 | findlay | no one on campus has a jPad |
| 21:52.48 | sjansen | Because most people see netbooks as cheap laptops. |
| 21:52.50 | resplin | goozbach: Not yet, but soon. It'll happen. |
| 21:53.07 | eightyeight | they are chep |
| 21:53.11 | eightyeight | s/chep/cheap/ |
| 21:53.35 | sjansen | Eventually tables will be cheap enough that they'll replace netbooks. |
| 21:53.42 | eightyeight | only if there's enough competition |
| 21:53.57 | sjansen | Which is why you need to buy an iPad2 for your wife. |
| 21:54.17 | sjansen | Or take a bullet for the rest of us and buy an Android tablet instead. |
| 21:54.19 | eightyeight | so she can have two from the same maker? |
| 21:54.31 | levi | There's not a whole lot of fat in the price of a tablet computer right now. |
| 21:54.54 | sjansen | Personally, though, I don't think Android tablet makers should be rewarded until they produce something other than crap. |
| 21:54.56 | eightyeight | i have been looking at the htc view, only for the pressure sensitive capacitive touch stylus |
| 21:54.58 | levi | It takes a lot of money to make something small, lightweight, and reasonably powerful. |
| 21:55.10 | eightyeight | understood |
| 21:55.45 | eightyeight | but, my phone is a very cabable "tablet" if anything, so i don't really see the need |
| 21:55.53 | sjansen | (To be fair, I've heard that a couple decent Android tablet finally came out last month. Don't know if that's true since I stopped paying attention after buying my iPad2.) |
| 21:56.15 | sjansen | eightyeight: No, it isn't. The screen is too small. |
| 21:56.20 | findlay | but will they serve up grocery lists in TWM? |
| 21:56.27 | eightyeight | 4.3" isn't that small |
| 21:56.32 | sjansen | Your phone is a very capable phone. It's a crappy tablet. |
| 21:56.41 | eightyeight | perspective |
| 21:57.13 | levi | To be fair, tablets would make crappy phones, too. |
| 21:57.18 | findlay | I agree with everything sjansen's said so far |
| 21:57.22 | sjansen | It's people like you that let crappy hardware companies create 7" pieces of crap and call them tablets. |
| 21:57.28 | findlay | except for TWM |
| 21:57.37 | eightyeight | no, i don't let them, because i'm not sending them my money |
| 21:58.14 | sjansen | 9" is the bare minimum for a real tablet. 10" is more reasonable. 12" is insane. |
| 21:59.59 | findlay | ~convert 12 inches to planck lengths |
| 22:00.43 | levi | The answer is "a lot" |
| 22:01.39 | findlay | aptitude install twisted ; on ARM ; I'll take a nap, I'm tired |
| 22:42.08 | eightyeight | heh. how appropriate: http://www.osnews.com/story/24944/Of_Course_a_Tablet_Is_a_PC_-_The_iPad_Is_a_PC_Too_You_Know |
| 22:49.20 | *** join/#utah dharmatech (~hayduke@166-70-57-177.ip.xmission.com) |
| 22:51.45 | levi | Well, you could make a tablet and a PC the same physical device, but two different operating modes. The hardware involved is the same at the core, anyway. But that doesn't mean they're not two conceptually different things. |
| 22:59.43 | eightyeight | sjansen: i was just cleaning the mate from my gourd, and recalled when i clogged the food disposer at the old GL office |
| 23:00.06 | eightyeight | why a filter was installed before the disposer made no sense to me |
| 23:00.13 | eightyeight | anyway, good times. ã |
| 23:00.13 | *** join/#utah Sargun (~sargun@atarack/Staff/Sargun) |
| 23:01.26 | Sargun | What should I call my LLC? |
| 23:03.09 | eightyeight | Sargun: what does your llc do? |
| 23:03.48 | Sargun | eightyeight: Consulting. |
| 23:04.13 | eightyeight | what type of consulting? |
| 23:04.20 | Sargun | System/Network administration |
| 23:04.21 | eightyeight | details would be helpful |
| 23:04.44 | eightyeight | "Series of Tubes, LLC" |
| 23:04.44 | craigj | Sargun Consulting LLC? |
| 23:04.48 | Sargun | Aw. |
| 23:04.49 | Sargun | That's boring |
| 23:05.05 | Sargun | eightyeight: Sargun of Tubes LLC |
| 23:05.09 | sjansen | eightyeight: As I recall it was a lift pump after the disposal. The filter was to protect the pump. |
| 23:06.04 | sjansen | Putting in proper drainage was too expensive. And I guess the plumber felt no need to mention that the disposal would be pointless with the pump and filter added. |
| 23:06.10 | eightyeight | sjansen: that's right. but wasn't the filter before the disposer? regardless, i can't imagine that a filter and a disposer would go well together |
| 23:07.25 | sjansen | Net Nuts, LLC |
| 23:07.42 | eightyeight | aft |
| 23:11.08 | Sargun | sjansen: in what |
| 23:11.43 | sjansen | eightyeight: Just finished the OS News article. |
| 23:12.05 | sjansen | MS has been trying to create a successful tablet experience for ages. |
| 23:12.30 | sjansen | Their repeated attempts to drag Windows along for the ride has been at the core of their failure. |
| 23:12.51 | sjansen | The Windows 7 interface might be innovative. I haven't used it enough to know. |
| 23:13.15 | sjansen | But as long as they stay tied to traditional Windows, I expect repeated failure. |
| 23:13.46 | sjansen | The idea of combining laptops and tablets is obvious and wrong. |
| 23:14.05 | sjansen | 10" is a great size for a tablet and a sucky size for a laptop. |
| 23:14.36 | sjansen | Yes, people have been demonstrating a willingness to accept postage stamp sized laptops. |
| 23:14.59 | sjansen | But those are the same people that don't need a laptop. Why would they want a combination device when a tablet will eventually be sufficient? |
| 23:15.38 | sjansen | As for everyone else that needs the real power of a decent sized laptop, the tablet will never be large enough to meet their needs. |
| 23:16.34 | sjansen | In other words, while I find the author's ideas interesting, I disagree with pretty much every conclusion. |
| 23:24.02 | Sargun | sjansen: I think 7" is better for a laptop. |
| 23:24.07 | Sargun | s/laptop/tablet |
| 23:24.19 | Sargun | Remember those mini-sony notebooks in the early 2000s? |
| 23:25.18 | sjansen | With revulsion and disgust, yes. |
| 23:31.52 | *** join/#utah bmidgley (~bmidgley@c-24-10-224-87.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |