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| 02:14.12 | Sargun | Who here has a license to RH6? |
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| 03:39.16 | bonez2046 | is there a quick, reliable way to save a youtube video.. to local hdd, in case it gets 'pulled' from youtube? |
| 03:40.52 | fugue88 | bonez2046: youtube-dl |
| 03:41.00 | fugue88 | Just install that. |
| 03:41.11 | fugue88 | It's a command-line utility, dead simple to use. |
| 03:46.10 | bonez2046 | thanks |
| 03:50.08 | bonez2046 | fugue88: I apt-got it, read man page, and ran it.. and I get this error> |
| 03:50.27 | bonez2046 | ERROR: format not available for video |
| 03:51.13 | bonez2046 | do you have any experience using it? I don't see any .flv file created either |
| 03:51.38 | fugue88 | bonez2046: Ah, some videos for some reason will do that. I haven't found a way around it. |
| 03:52.11 | bonez2046 | hmmm |
| 03:52.13 | fugue88 | bonez2046: If you're at a URL that pre-selects a high-def version, you might try stripping of the high-def part of the query string |
| 03:52.25 | bonez2046 | ok.. |
| 03:52.39 | fugue88 | bonez2046: What's the URL? |
| 03:52.47 | fugue88 | I can try some fiddling here. |
| 03:53.20 | bonez2046 | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j8c-y6LNq0 |
| 03:54.03 | bonez2046 | it's of a friend, getting wailed on.. assault n battery... I want to save it and then I hope to get YouTube to pull it so the copycat stuff doesn't perpetuate more of this. |
| 03:59.39 | bonez2046 | I tried this instead > youtube-dl http://www.youtube.com/user/Ovcb10 AND that works without error, but I then scan the local directory and can't see where the file was saved.. |
| 04:00.17 | bonez2046 | the Ovcb10 is the code given on youtube to identify the video |
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| 04:01.18 | fugue88 | Weird that that "works." |
| 04:01.19 | bonez2046 | no wait.. that is the ID of the person uploading it... |
| 04:01.34 | fugue88 | I can't find any other URL to try... |
| 04:01.38 | fugue88 | Sry. |
| 04:01.46 | bonez2046 | that's the uploader's ID.. bingo.. He should be getting a subpoena in a few weeks..or she should. |
| 04:01.49 | bonez2046 | it's ok |
| 04:01.57 | bonez2046 | you have helped.. thanks ! |
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| 14:08.39 | olli1 | hello world |
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| 14:57.11 | bonez2046 | recent power surge (I wasn't at home) caused power to home to drop for a few seconds, which switched off several devices, including my PC |
| 14:58.14 | bonez2046 | when I arrived home the power was ON, but despite trying to power my PC back on, nothing worked, until I took off the side panel, vacuumed out all the dust (it needed this ANYWAY) and when I put it back together and hooked up... voila.. it powered up |
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| 14:58.57 | bonez2046 | My question: Why would it not power up with my moving it around, i.e., is there something that needs changes it's position in space that allowed it to power up? |
| 15:00.49 | neybar | most likely moving it around and then having it start up again was coincidental. |
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| 15:01.23 | neybar | unless you had a loose connection or something that got jostled back into place |
| 15:01.55 | bonez2046 | but it's terribly consistent... power failure, nothing to revive it externally, but take off cover, replace and then it powers up. |
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| 15:02.51 | bonez2046 | and it DID need a cleaning, lotta dust in the heat sink around the CPU.. but unnerving that it requires a little jostling |
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| 15:20.40 | RyanE | Bad Capacitors. No reason, really, but that's what I blame all electronics problems on. :) |
| 15:31.03 | eightyeight | http://www.debian.org/News/2011/20110427 |
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| 16:06.29 | sjansen | Trump or Palin, I'm not sure which is scarier. |
| 16:06.46 | JoshH | bachmann |
| 16:07.24 | JoshH | why can't the GOP have any rising stars who aren't complete sideshow freaks? why isn't huntsman their far and away front runner? why is the universe so out of balance? |
| 16:08.13 | unum | huntsman is traveled, literate, compasionate, what is about the GOP that you don't understand |
| 16:09.26 | JoshH | he's definitely electable, imo. there's a reason he had like 90% popularity in utah |
| 16:10.04 | unum | problem is his name got him the GOP nomination here, other wise they never would have picked him |
| 16:10.26 | unum | in the general election he'd do really well, which is why obama is trying to sabotage him in the primary |
| 16:10.38 | unum | he's doing the same thing to romney |
| 16:10.51 | JoshH | the whole idea of being a nutjob for primaries and normal for generals is so retarded |
| 16:11.10 | JoshH | we should just find the best person from the beginning somehow |
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| 16:11.42 | unum | I like what california has done |
| 16:11.52 | unum | too bad utah is going the opposite direction |
| 16:12.22 | unum | we have less races with jungle primaries that we did 4 years ago |
| 16:12.38 | sjansen | unum: What are you talking about? I'm not aware of a good political idea coming out of California for decades. |
| 16:13.02 | JoshH | what? having porn stars, arnold, and gary coleman running for governer was fantastic |
| 16:13.46 | goozbach | and it pretty much matched the demographics, so that was good |
| 16:14.08 | fugue88 | zing! |
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| 16:14.22 | unum | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_14_%282010%29 |
| 16:15.28 | sjansen | I sit corrected. |
| 16:15.36 | unum | in utah all municipal races are done in a simialar fashion |
| 16:15.45 | unum | and education board races used to be |
| 16:16.02 | unum | but state board education elections are now a sham |
| 16:20.29 | JoshH | everything about education here is absurd |
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| 17:19.32 | rsimpkins | In Utah I can at least 'opt out' of the main-stream cogs of education. I still have to pay for it though, which right now is a fair trade. Kind of like paying hush money. |
| 17:36.22 | unum | rsimpkins: you're going to home school? |
| 17:40.05 | eightyeight | ~rlart |
| 17:40.05 | ibot | slaps stderr- around with a large trout |
| 17:40.13 | eightyeight | lame |
| 17:40.17 | eightyeight | ~wtf banal |
| 17:40.54 | fozzmoo | If I didn't live where I live (with relatively excellent schools), I'd definitely be considering charter schools or home schooling. |
| 17:44.55 | rsimpkins | unum: We are enrolled in a virtual charter school that allows us to have a farily flexible curriculum with just the right balance of structure (for us). |
| 17:47.59 | unum | that sound like a nice balance |
| 17:48.21 | fozzmoo | I have a couple friends that were involved in the creation of the Open High School of Utah. It looks very cool. |
| 17:48.37 | fozzmoo | My oldest is 13, so we're not quite to the point of considering that. |
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| 18:23.54 | sontek | We are going to home school for the first few years at least |
| 18:25.01 | sontek | Probably until 5th or 6th |
| 18:25.57 | JoshH | the main issue with the public schools are we need more of them. i enjoyed my public education here, but when i was a senior in HS i was in the DFW area in texas, and it was a lot different to only have 15-20 kids in a class, and have the teacher able to focus on people instead of just going gray haired from trying to keep everyone quiet and behaved half the time |
| 18:27.02 | Migs | there's a few online high schools in Utah |
| 18:27.28 | JoshH | also, i think the social aspect of public schools is important |
| 18:27.30 | JoshH | if someone went to an online high school only they would be a weirdo like migs |
| 18:27.34 | JoshH | :P |
| 18:28.28 | goozbach | to quote Neil Boortz: "Sending your kid to public school is child abuse" |
| 18:30.14 | Migs | JoshH: I don't entirely disagree with that. |
| 18:31.01 | Migs | I don't think a lot of these administrators and teachers starting and implementing online K-12 schools truly understand the drastic pedagogical shift that has to occur to make it successful and rival, let alone keep up with brick and mortar education |
| 18:32.08 | Migs | for example, the Open High School's curriculum director.....she's a great math teacher, but I'm not sure she's cut out to design curriculum |
| 18:32.17 | Migs | that's really something you should have a doctorate in |
| 18:32.31 | Migs | perhaps my standards are too high, though |
| 18:32.42 | JoshH | something has to be fixed with our education though |
| 18:32.50 | JoshH | we're raising generations of idiots |
| 18:32.55 | JoshH | while other countries kids are way smarter |
| 18:33.02 | JoshH | plus our kids are obese |
| 18:33.07 | Migs | Yeah, obesity = stupidity |
| 18:33.09 | JoshH | and have no respect for anything |
| 18:33.21 | goozbach | children in general are losing the drive to learn |
| 18:33.25 | JoshH | and are spoiled by video games with graphics that i couldn't even dream of when i was a kid |
| 18:33.33 | Migs | something has to be fixed with lazy parents refusing to do their job |
| 18:33.36 | eightyeight | goozbach: i disagree |
| 18:33.47 | goozbach | I think it's being beaten out of them by over scheduling and dumbing down of curriculm |
| 18:33.48 | Migs | and I disagree with goozbach too |
| 18:34.00 | Migs | children have a great drive to learn, but it's the TEACHER'S job to recognize how to engage them properly and focus that desire |
| 18:34.02 | eightyeight | a recent article (i can find it) showed more awarded phds in 2010 in the united states than ever before |
| 18:34.14 | eightyeight | seems to me there is a great interest in the sciences, much more than previous |
| 18:34.14 | goozbach | what do you learn in grade school and high school? |
| 18:34.17 | Migs | Kids learn new stuff all the time, and are eager to do so. The problem is it's usually stuff like how to beat the latest video game |
| 18:34.20 | goozbach | memorize, recite |
| 18:34.22 | goozbach | memorize, recite |
| 18:34.24 | goozbach | memorize, recite |
| 18:34.26 | goozbach | ad infinum |
| 18:34.32 | Migs | goozbach: That is changing |
| 18:34.32 | eightyeight | either that, or they're making it easier to get a phd |
| 18:34.38 | goozbach | let me rephrase |
| 18:34.42 | Migs | Not fast enough though, if you ask me |
| 18:34.46 | goozbach | children aren't losing the drive to learn |
| 18:35.02 | goozbach | they're being robbed of their drive to learn |
| 18:35.05 | Migs | Again, I disagree |
| 18:35.11 | goozbach | I look at my nephew |
| 18:35.14 | goozbach | he is 8 |
| 18:35.18 | Migs | I think the problem is teachers just haven't kept up with what makes 21st century students want to learn |
| 18:35.33 | JoshH | it's tough to judge a teacher |
| 18:35.35 | Migs | They're still used to kids being willing to sit in a classroom and listen to the sage on stage drone on |
| 18:35.36 | goozbach | at 8 years old he has an hour of homework daily |
| 18:35.48 | JoshH | but the best are the ones who are really passionate, actively engage the kids, get them motivated, etc |
| 18:35.50 | goozbach | *AND* he plays baseball on two different teams |
| 18:35.53 | JoshH | not something easy to define by metrics |
| 18:36.02 | Migs | better constructivist models of learning have to be adapted |
| 18:36.10 | goozbach | so 6 nights a week he's not "done" until after 8-9 at night |
| 18:36.10 | Migs | right, engagement is the key |
| 18:36.23 | goozbach | where he sits in front of the TV, or plays wii |
| 18:36.46 | JoshH | goozbach: i definitely think there are too many hours in a school day |
| 18:36.54 | JoshH | kids should be there for like 4 hours a day and go have lunch at home |
| 18:36.54 | goozbach | JoshH: my point exactly |
| 18:37.04 | goozbach | then I look at this kid my wife was a nanny for |
| 18:37.09 | goozbach | he is 6-7 |
| 18:37.23 | goozbach | he went to a montisorri(sp?) school |
| 18:37.32 | JoshH | also, no kid can go into class at 7am and think about math or shakespeare |
| 18:37.45 | goozbach | he has a drive to learn, he's done with his school at 2:30, he comes home |
| 18:37.52 | jpwhiting | montesori |
| 18:37.55 | Migs | there's been studies like that, actually JoshH. They've shown that students perform better at 10:00 or later |
| 18:37.56 | jpwhiting | maybe two s's |
| 18:38.02 | goozbach | sits at the counter with mom, eats a sandwich |
| 18:38.05 | Migs | the early times date back to when farming communities were prominent. |
| 18:38.06 | JoshH | the public system should really learn a lot from what the private schools do right |
| 18:38.08 | goozbach | plays for an hour or so outside |
| 18:38.20 | Migs | Kids had to be home earlier to help finish the farm chores, before it got dark |
| 18:38.26 | goozbach | then when dad gets home they do something fun (and educational) |
| 18:38.28 | JoshH | one of the problems with the public system is there's way too much institutional inertia and layers of administration to make any major changes |
| 18:38.47 | Migs | JoshH: Often. Really depends on the inertia. That is one thing I do like about charter schools...much smaller administration. |
| 18:38.52 | Migs | less bureaucracy |
| 18:38.53 | goozbach | catch bugs, check on the garden the planted, have imagination games |
| 18:38.55 | goozbach | etc |
| 18:39.02 | JoshH | so people can go on and on with all these great ideas, but none will ever even be close to implemented, ever |
| 18:39.19 | Migs | That's one thing that can drive me nuts about working for a school district. I mean, I have a great boss who has the right mindset about this whole thing. But some of our other administrators.... |
| 18:39.21 | goozbach | I think he is farther on than my nephew |
| 18:39.30 | eightyeight | if you wish to cut the hours they are in school, which cirriculum do you cut out? |
| 18:39.31 | Migs | their ideas can be quite dated |
| 18:39.42 | eightyeight | history? art? music? math? ... |
| 18:39.52 | Migs | I don't think hours need to be cut |
| 18:39.56 | goozbach | eightyeight: none of them |
| 18:39.57 | Migs | I think they need to be BETTER USED |
| 18:40.03 | goozbach | just go with less time |
| 18:40.08 | Migs | funny story, though |
| 18:40.10 | JoshH | eightyeight: i think something like trimesters or quartermesters with different subjects and shorter periods would work |
| 18:40.11 | goozbach | and let the kids decide what they want to learn |
| 18:40.18 | eightyeight | goozbach: but teachers are struggling to get everything done in the time they have |
| 18:40.24 | JoshH | the goal is just to give people a basic broad education that covers the general stuff |
| 18:40.25 | Migs | about 80 years ago, there was a study done, where the entire math curriculum was cut from kindergarten through 5th |
| 18:40.34 | JoshH | nothing too specialized is taught in the k-12 levels anyway |
| 18:40.35 | Migs | in turn, the students were given a stronger education in English, history, etc. |
| 18:40.38 | goozbach | eightyeight: that's because they have perverse incentives to "get through" |
| 18:41.08 | eightyeight | goozbach: the incentive is the state core exams. if the students don't pass, they haven't learned the material well enough |
| 18:41.18 | Migs | by the 6th grade, they showed that the students in the math-deprived control group performed significantly lower than standard students who had the regular math curriculum all throughout. But then they focused most of the 6th grade curriculum on math, intensifying it so they covered everything they would have learned from K-6. |
| 18:41.41 | Migs | By the end of the year, these students had stronger math skills, as well as stronger English and history skills than any other students |
| 18:41.43 | eightyeight | sure, teachers construct their day to tailor to the core exams, but still. it's a mad rush to get in the core concepts that students need in secondary education |
| 18:41.44 | goozbach | eightyeight: that's part of the problem |
| 18:41.59 | eightyeight | so, what is deemed "core", and what isn't? |
| 18:42.02 | Migs | actually, history might not have been in the research. Hang on, I'll find some info |
| 18:42.05 | goozbach | defining a one-size-fits all "core" |
| 18:42.06 | eightyeight | it means taking _something_ out |
| 18:42.20 | goozbach | I like what Dan Meyer has done with his teaching of math |
| 18:42.22 | goozbach | http://blog.mrmeyer.com/ |
| 18:42.31 | eightyeight | i'm not advocating against the change, i just don't see how cutting time in school would be beneficial |
| 18:42.48 | Migs | my college has an experimental math education class conducted in Second Life |
| 18:42.53 | Migs | basically, teaching teachers how to teach math with Second Life |
| 18:43.03 | Migs | I'm sure K-12 kids would love that kind of education |
| 18:43.35 | Migs | http://math.boisestate.edu/~holmes/EDTECH597/Teaching%20Math%20in%20Virtual%20Worlds.html |
| 18:47.22 | sontek | Have you guys seen khan academy? |
| 18:48.06 | sontek | Their point was that students learn at different rates... so by having a set curriculum and moving forward after you've covered the materials means some students would understand and some don't |
| 18:48.12 | Migs | Yes. I'ev mentioned it to my teachers before. |
| 18:48.15 | sontek | but they allow the students to learn at their own pace |
| 18:48.19 | Migs | my district's teachers, that is |
| 18:48.26 | sontek | and then the teacher can monitor and see who is struggling and help them |
| 18:49.14 | sontek | which really goes back to the point of too much school... Yes its too much school for some students but not for others... the answer isn't to cut the time, its to let them learn at their own pace and utilize that time more effectively |
| 18:50.12 | goozbach | that's what I've been saying |
| 18:50.21 | goozbach | but with the additon to follow their passions |
| 18:50.49 | eightyeight | you need smaller classes for that though |
| 18:50.55 | goozbach | true |
| 18:50.59 | goozbach | which raises the cost |
| 18:51.01 | eightyeight | which means you need more teachers |
| 18:51.48 | sontek | eightyeight: With the khan academy you utilize software to monitor their learning, so you more effectively use the teachers time by having them focus on the ones struggling while the ones who are learning quickly can move on |
| 18:51.49 | eightyeight | my wife would have loved to push students at their own pace, but how does she with 27 in her class? |
| 18:52.00 | JoshH | only 27? |
| 18:52.01 | sontek | so you actually need *less* teachers |
| 18:52.02 | JoshH | that's lucky |
| 18:52.18 | eightyeight | JoshH: yeah. they had 4 teachers in the 2nd grade |
| 18:52.34 | sontek | eightyeight: Her problem is exactly what khan academy solves |
| 18:52.47 | eightyeight | i'm worried about my daughter. she's only 3, and she can already read and do basic addition and subtraction |
| 18:52.51 | JoshH | i've seen some of the khan academy videos |
| 18:52.56 | JoshH | they are very good at explaining stuff |
| 18:53.04 | eightyeight | when she gets to elementary education, she'll be bored out of her skull, and won't be pushed |
| 18:53.15 | JoshH | eightyeight: that's very impressive |
| 18:53.31 | goozbach | eightyeight: I had the same problem |
| 18:53.32 | JoshH | my 3.5 year old has a huge vocabulary and stuff but isn't reading yet |
| 18:53.33 | eightyeight | we're debating home-schooling her, because we can then set the pace she deserves |
| 18:53.46 | goozbach | to the point that my third grade teacher thought I had a learning disibility |
| 18:54.12 | goozbach | maybe it was second grade teacher |
| 18:54.14 | JoshH | goozbach: we all know you're just special, it's ok |
| 18:54.15 | Jayce^ | eightyeight: it is a serious problem, our kids have been having that issue.. look into alternatives to basic public ed if you don't want the one-size fits all |
| 18:54.39 | Jayce^ | even doing our own stuff at home in addition it's really messed up how my kids handle getting taught |
| 18:54.52 | goozbach | anyhow she thought I didn't know how to read, and called my parents in. |
| 18:54.53 | eightyeight | Jayce^: but, we want the social aspect too. she shouldn't be deprived of that, and providing a good social structure with home-schooling is difficult, to say the least |
| 18:54.58 | JoshH | i think basic public ed is fine, but there should be additional stuff too. smart kid field trips, extra learning at home, etc |
| 18:55.36 | goozbach | my mom laughed in her face, reached over to her desk, grabbed the newspaper or magizine which was there and handed it to me and said, "read this" |
| 18:55.46 | eightyeight | heh |
| 18:55.50 | goozbach | I started reading and the teacher's jaw dropped |
| 18:56.12 | goozbach | my mom said, "he's bored, challege him" stood up and led us out |
| 18:56.31 | fugue88 | Good mother. :) |
| 18:56.58 | Jayce^ | I think the social aspect has been a hinderance actually. with the way it's handled.. |
| 18:57.37 | Jayce^ | my friend that does the k-12 program has a far better experience with the social interaction than my two older kids get |
| 18:57.48 | Jayce^ | trips, supervision in group activities, etc.. |
| 18:57.48 | goozbach | yeah, my mom rocks |
| 18:57.54 | sontek | I think for the most part the social aspect is overrated... If you have a close family and friends they can socialize/interact with them and learn good behaviors |
| 18:58.04 | sontek | I think every bad behavior I learned was from socializing in school :P |
| 18:58.04 | fugue88 | ~mother-of-goozbach++ |
| 18:58.17 | goozbach | heck, I've started reading "The Hobbit" to my 37day old son |
| 18:58.31 | goozbach | I'm gonna make a habit of making that the first book read to them |
| 18:58.39 | eightyeight | sontek: good/bad behavior is only part of it. there's social customs that aren't learned unless you're out in the culture |
| 18:58.46 | Jayce^ | my kids have tons of kids around, plus church activities, plus things *we* do, so they get over 'stimulated' usually with that |
| 18:59.07 | goozbach | when little brothers or sisters come along, the older ones will get a refressher |
| 18:59.17 | fozzmoo | Will someone wake me when the plug list returns to normal? |
| 18:59.21 | sontek | eightyeight: but thats what I'm saying, they can get that from your community rather than the public school system |
| 18:59.33 | fugue88 | Most of the social customs can't be learned solely fom children within the same birth year as you. |
| 18:59.41 | eightyeight | sontek: yes. i agree. but it's not easy |
| 18:59.52 | fugue88 | (Check: children within a year plus a usually immature teacher) |
| 19:00.01 | sontek | Thats what we are planning for our little one |
| 19:00.25 | sontek | We figure he can socialize with our friends and family and get a good education from home |
| 19:00.27 | eightyeight | fozzmoo: just like the days of old, eh? ã |
| 19:00.29 | fozzmoo | What would the #utah crowd from ten years ago say about these discussions? |
| 19:00.51 | Jayce^ | eightyeight: actually, I think it's better.. same thing with the education.. too often he's left to play with the boys who want nothing more than to do exactly what we *don't* want him doing |
| 19:00.57 | sontek | haha, I had to unsubscribe from plug... what are the discussions? |
| 19:01.08 | Jayce^ | fozzmoo: that's why most of us left. |
| 19:01.14 | eightyeight | sontek: there are a few moms in our neighborhood, who are looking at home schooling options as well. there's been discussion about different homes teaching different subjects |
| 19:01.19 | fozzmoo | sontek: You can still see the archives. |
| 19:01.34 | Jayce^ | eightyeight: look into the k-12 program, I know quite a few people that love it |
| 19:01.37 | eightyeight | sontek: at least then, the kids would be with each other more, and learn things like sharing, talking nice, etc |
| 19:01.48 | Jayce^ | we've looked at it too, might go for it next year with at least our son |
| 19:02.05 | eightyeight | Jayce^: any site specifically that i should bookmark? |
| 19:02.20 | eightyeight | or contact, or resource, or something? |
| 19:02.54 | JoshH | the other issue is that these days when most families need two incomes to get the proper insurance coverage, if they even get that, money to provide, etc, who has time for home schooling, or the knowledge to do it? i can only see it working well in a low number of situations |
| 19:03.15 | fozzmoo | JoshH: Good point. |
| 19:03.24 | Jayce^ | k12.com/utva |
| 19:03.35 | Jayce^ | a utah charter that uses the k12 program |
| 19:03.40 | eightyeight | cool. thx |
| 19:03.44 | Jayce^ | so online, with 'regional' activities |
| 19:03.53 | fozzmoo | JoshH: But I think that's indicative of some issues that could be to blame for a lot of problems. :) |
| 19:03.58 | JoshH | it's not like the old days where the man worked at the same place for 30 years, provided everything and got a pension, while the family stayed home and was perfectly fine |
| 19:04.25 | JoshH | but at that point we're talking about problems with society in general, not just education |
| 19:04.26 | Jayce^ | my son got chastised for reading too much 'fantasy' books for his book reports.. |
| 19:04.55 | fozzmoo | Jayce^: Good. That's no way to get well-rounded. |
| 19:04.56 | Jayce^ | 4th grade, and he's done the percy jacksons, the belgariad, finishing the mallorean, and two other series.. |
| 19:05.25 | JoshH | he should read a lot of different stuff, but there's no reason to care what he writes reports on |
| 19:05.27 | fozzmoo | I mean, I think that's cool and all, but I'm sure the teacher's thinking they've got to do something about this kid becoming a fantasy freak. :) |
| 19:05.56 | fadein | We were going to send my son to Kindergarten until we discovered that he already knows all of the stuff he's required to enter the 1st grade. |
| 19:06.15 | Jayce^ | if the kid grabs books he *likes* and reads that much above the stupid 'grade level'.. let 'em |
| 19:06.29 | goozbach | amen |
| 19:06.33 | fadein | My wife inquired if there was anything we could do to look at the possiblilty to get him moved ahead, and the lady said "well, we have to follow our protocol, so he needs to go to Kindergarten first" |
| 19:06.46 | fadein | we started home schooling him the very next week |
| 19:06.54 | Jayce^ | fadein: smart move |
| 19:06.55 | JoshH | well, kindergarten is more about getting used to staying at school all day instead of at home with mom, as kind of an introduction to the concept of school, than actual learning |
| 19:07.20 | fadein | JoshH: which, to me, seems like a waste of a perfectly good year |
| 19:07.37 | JoshH | it should probably last less than a year |
| 19:07.44 | *** join/#utah fugue88 (~dsowen@173-165-137-65-utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 19:07.45 | Jayce^ | last year our teacher complained that our son must have a reading problem, because he didn't like reading the stupid see dick run type books.. |
| 19:07.46 | JoshH | maybe they should make it just be the first couple months of first grade or something |
| 19:07.57 | Jayce^ | and because he had bad penmanship |
| 19:08.03 | Jayce^ | (I have horrid penmanship too) |
| 19:08.16 | JoshH | i remember reading books a few grades above my level in elementary, but it didn't seem like a big deal. the teacher just said here, have these books instead |
| 19:08.22 | fadein | the thing that upset us the most was the "system's" unwillingness to even humour us about the possibility - I'm sure they hear from the parents of a lot of so called "smart kids", but jeez, at least tell us that you'll look into it or test him, or something |
| 19:08.26 | Jayce^ | but he's sitting there reading far above the level for fun |
| 19:08.34 | fadein | makes me feel that their priorities aren't to get my kid ahead |
| 19:08.58 | neybar | heh, my wife is really concerned about my sons penmanship. I have a hard time caring though. Aside from my signature, I just don't write that much... :) How's that for short-sitedness. :) |
| 19:09.06 | fadein | Jayce^: lol - poor penmanship is one of the reasons I think computers are a good fit for me ;) |
| 19:09.07 | fozzmoo | Our experience with our local schools is that the administrators are "scared" of being caught being out of line with regulations and rules. |
| 19:09.25 | goozbach | I think the problem is you guys think the public schools are there for education and improvement of your children |
| 19:09.27 | goozbach | :) |
| 19:09.54 | fozzmoo | We ran into this when our now in 7th grade daughter was incorrectly evaluated for her math ability and recommended to take "Math 7" in 7th grade when she was clearly ready for Algebra. |
| 19:10.02 | Jayce^ | goozbach: no, I've come to that realization many times.. it's just the continual beating of the head against it |
| 19:10.44 | fozzmoo | The first thing they said was "Every parent thinks their student is outstanding and amazing..." |
| 19:10.45 | Jayce^ | my son also suffers from the same things I had at his age.. laziness when given lots of rote homework.. |
| 19:11.00 | JoshH | so, what are your thoughts on utah's low teacher pay and poor student funding and huge class sizes? do any of you support politicans who want to fix those things, are you more of the starve the beast, switch to vouchers and private schools types? |
| 19:11.03 | fozzmoo | (This is a reason not to put them in the correct class?) |
| 19:11.10 | goozbach | Jayce^: something you should try is not telling him he's smart |
| 19:11.14 | goozbach | (even if it's true) |
| 19:11.20 | Gate | goozbach: they are scared of rules and regulations, and some of the math teachers (middle and highschool) I have encountered were outright jealous of students who were smarter than them |
| 19:11.31 | goozbach | "you must have worked really hard on that" vs "wow you really are smart" |
| 19:11.55 | fozzmoo | But then the truth came out- there were quotas and numbers. Suddenly the middle school was to blame for falling math performance in high schools and college... |
| 19:12.13 | fozzmoo | It was increasingly important for the middle school to NOT burn out kids on math. |
| 19:12.24 | fozzmoo | My wife was stunned. |
| 19:12.25 | eightyeight | i most certainly blame middle school for the lack of math competence where i went |
| 19:12.35 | eightyeight | anyway |
| 19:12.40 | Jayce^ | JoshH: I don't think throwing money at a bad system is going to help anything |
| 19:12.50 | fozzmoo | In the end, my daughter took the required summer math class to prove she was ready for algebra. |
| 19:12.55 | fozzmoo | Aced it. |
| 19:13.12 | Jayce^ | it's the style of teaching, and the way things are built out that will never prosper |
| 19:13.13 | *** join/#utah wps (~wps@76.8.223.101) |
| 19:13.36 | JoshH | i think it's impossible to have a system that's close to perfect, but i do think that more money would help a lot of things |
| 19:13.40 | fozzmoo | The experienced proved one thing, if nothing else: The school administrators have little control over how things are done at their own school. |
| 19:13.42 | neybar | I'm all for better funding the education system, but not before I can see improvements on how that money is being spent. I feel like way too much of the money is being wasted. |
| 19:13.46 | JoshH | smaller classes and happier teachers, for one |
| 19:14.00 | fozzmoo | This all goes back to federal mandates on curriculum among other things. |
| 19:14.21 | fozzmoo | The federal government doesn't know squat about what students need in Chicago vs Eagle Mountain. |
| 19:14.43 | JoshH | federal involvement should be limited to a few generalized areas for sure |
| 19:14.51 | Jayce^ | fozzmoo: but they're all the same :) |
| 19:15.35 | JoshH | federal funding is good though |
| 19:15.43 | goozbach | reason I love minecraft #32445 http://notch.tumblr.com/post/4988431144/the-maps |
| 19:15.57 | JoshH | the schools in chicago shouldn't have paint peeling off and ceilign tiles falling down |
| 19:16.02 | fozzmoo | Shut down the Dept. of Education, give administrators, teachers, and parents the power to shape what goes on in schools. It'll save money at the federal level and I guarantee it'll improve things locally. |
| 19:16.41 | fozzmoo | Many of my hardcore libertarian friends think public education is a lost cause. |
| 19:17.00 | JoshH | why do other countries have public ed that works well then? |
| 19:17.10 | fozzmoo | They're perfectly happy abandoning it for private or home schooling. |
| 19:17.39 | fozzmoo | But I think, as many of our founding fathers did, that public education is NECESSARY. |
| 19:17.47 | JoshH | absolutely |
| 19:17.53 | JoshH | the last thing the country needs is an even dumber population |
| 19:18.13 | JoshH | if everyone had lots of time and money, a purely private/home system could be ok |
| 19:18.28 | rsimpkins | More and more I'm in the "just watch the train wreck and do your best to keep out of the way" camp. |
| 19:18.36 | JoshH | but a lot of smart people who do great things for the world came from poor homes with hard working parents |
| 19:18.38 | fozzmoo | But public schools in our founding fathers' time were controlled by local school boards consisting of parents, teachers, and administrators. |
| 19:19.16 | fozzmoo | There wasn't oversight even at the STATE level let alone the national level. |
| 19:19.46 | JoshH | people also killed their own dinner with muskets then |
| 19:19.49 | fozzmoo | And, *gasp* I think the schools may have had daily prayers. |
| 19:20.15 | *** join/#utah neybar (~jalance@74-220-196-115.bluehost.com) |
| 19:20.21 | fozzmoo | But they also beat the constitution and good principles of government into the kids along with "the three Rs." |
| 19:20.28 | JoshH | hey, people can still pray in class if they want to |
| 19:20.41 | JoshH | but nobody should ever have to... don't tell me you really believe otherwise |
| 19:23.08 | JoshH | at my school in texas lots of kids would read their bibles at their desks before the teacher got things started, and it was never a problem |
| 19:24.33 | JoshH | don't think i ever saw a BOM at school here though. i'm sure it happened without me noticing it though |
| 19:25.08 | Migs | you know someone would raise a big stink about it if they did |
| 19:25.24 | eightyeight | no, i don't think so |
| 19:25.40 | rsimpkins | I think the point about religions in school is that the school remain neutral. Don't push one set of beliefs over another set of beliefs. Either disallow or allow equally. |
| 19:25.43 | Migs | technically, teachers are allowed to read from the Bible or Book of Mormon to the class in a public school, if it's done for literary purposes. |
| 19:25.56 | eightyeight | despite what most utah mormons think, the general public is actually tolerant towards mormons |
| 19:26.10 | goozbach | JoshH: no need to read to read Book of Mormon during class |
| 19:26.11 | Migs | oh I don't disagree. It's the loud few that aren't that really stand out. |
| 19:26.20 | goozbach | you get released time semanary |
| 19:26.25 | JoshH | that's true |
| 19:26.25 | Migs | What those Texas kids ought to be doing is reading something class-related, though |
| 19:26.27 | goozbach | so it's a class slot |
| 19:26.31 | Migs | That should be encouraged more |
| 19:26.42 | JoshH | forgot about seminary |
| 19:26.43 | Migs | or at least reading something academic |
| 19:26.54 | eightyeight | Migs: so, i guess i'm saying that a "big stink" won't necessarily be raised |
| 19:27.00 | Migs | Of course it would |
| 19:27.05 | Migs | It only takes one person |
| 19:27.29 | JoshH | if it was somethign the teacher told people to do, it would cause a ruckus of some kind |
| 19:27.33 | eightyeight | again, the general public is largely tolerant towards mormons |
| 19:27.35 | JoshH | but kids doing it on their own, nobody would care |
| 19:27.43 | eightyeight | JoshH: agreed |
| 19:27.57 | Migs | so what? It's absolutely amazing to me every day how much school administration caters to the irrational "needs" of single members of the public |
| 19:28.04 | JoshH | but even if i was religious, i'd move out of the country before sending my kid to a school with mandatory prayers |
| 19:28.05 | fozzmoo | JoshH: In regard to your earlier question: Utah has historically been able to outperform much of the rest of the country with larger class sizes and lower funds per pupil. |
| 19:28.10 | eightyeight | if the kid is preaching it, maybe. if the teacher is preaching it, likely. if a kid is reading it, not likely |
| 19:28.13 | fozzmoo | Now I've got to get back to work. :) |
| 19:28.28 | Migs | what's the difference between preaching and reading? To many people, there is no difference. |
| 19:28.43 | eightyeight | seriously? |
| 19:28.50 | rsimpkins | Who thinks that? |
| 19:28.50 | goozbach | imagines the street preacher here |
| 19:28.58 | JoshH | fozzmoo: i've understood that as well, but i still don't think it's a good reason to bleed teachers to other states and have such big classes |
| 19:29.06 | Migs | I think you really underestimate the stupidity of the modern parent |
| 19:29.10 | goozbach | reading hellfire and damnation out loud on the street corner on friday nights |
| 19:29.21 | JoshH | migs, you probably hear all kinds of horror stories since you work there |
| 19:29.25 | Migs | Yes, I do :) |
| 19:29.32 | fozzmoo | Grrr. I really need to work,but I'll add this one thing: |
| 19:29.36 | Migs | And it's these annoying few that cause problems for everyone |
| 19:29.38 | rsimpkins | Migs: Then I guess I'm even more concerned we've crossed some line we can never return to. |
| 19:29.48 | Migs | Schools adjust entire policies around a few ranting parents who complain about dress codes |
| 19:29.53 | Migs | or complain about cell phone use in school |
| 19:29.58 | Migs | or ipods, etc. |
| 19:30.05 | JoshH | Migs: or how they changed that maturation program after a few eagle forum ladies whined |
| 19:30.09 | Migs | exactly |
| 19:30.21 | fozzmoo | I've got a friend in Phoenix and his kids are in a "traditional" school where they observe absolutely NO religious holidays, not even Halloween. The idea is they are there only to learn reading, writing, etc. |
| 19:30.24 | Migs | that's why I said it only takes one person for a "big stink" to be raised |
| 19:30.42 | JoshH | what do they mean by observe? |
| 19:30.44 | Migs | fozzmoo: That's bull crap. Part of learning is learning cultural trends as well. |
| 19:30.47 | fozzmoo | Doesn't seem very "traditional" at all, in my opinion, but that's the extent some go to. |
| 19:30.59 | JoshH | and what's a religious holiday besides christmas that schools typically take the day off for? |
| 19:31.04 | Migs | Why not use that opportunity to teach about the historical origins of Halloween, etc.? |
| 19:31.12 | JoshH | that does seem stupid though |
| 19:31.18 | fozzmoo | Meaning they don't do any of the things you think of where kids dress up as pilgrims/Indians, or have Halloween costume contests, etc. |
| 19:31.25 | fadein | fozzmoo: well, I, for one, am just appalled at how over-commercialized Halloween has become. Jack-o-lanterns and costumes... doesn't anyone care about the "reason for the season" anymore? |
| 19:31.35 | Migs | sometimes a good dress-up roleplay can really drive home the point for kids |
| 19:31.53 | fadein | Migs: unless you're having the kids learn about fascism, or slavery |
| 19:32.07 | eightyeight | heh |
| 19:32.08 | Migs | I remember in my middle school we had a "Night of the Notables" and I dressed up as one of the Marx Brothers with some of my friends. I still remember many facts about the Marx Bros. |
| 19:32.13 | eightyeight | little hitlers |
| 19:32.13 | Migs | hahahahaha |
| 19:32.14 | JoshH | i think nobody would argue that hyper sensitivey and concern about PC'ness has been a good thing in schools |
| 19:32.15 | fozzmoo | "Now raise your hand like this and yell 'Seig Heil!'" |
| 19:32.19 | fadein | those are topics that are apparently best left antiseptic and "by the book" |
| 19:32.19 | JoshH | i blame lawyers though |
| 19:32.21 | Migs | like those teachers who stage mock slave auctions? |
| 19:32.47 | Migs | those are awesome. I recall actually doing that in elementary school, too. Except we were assigned races. |
| 19:32.48 | fozzmoo | The uproar over that was silly. You could learn a lot from that. |
| 19:32.53 | Migs | haha I know |
| 19:33.00 | fadein | I had one history teacher, ONE, who had us roleplay sititng in a WWI trench |
| 19:33.10 | Migs | see, now that's good stuff |
| 19:33.20 | Migs | Gives the kids a sense of how miserable it must've been |
| 19:33.34 | fozzmoo | It's that whole doomed to repeat stuff. |
| 19:33.36 | fadein | that one lesson has stuck with me like no other history lesson. I imagine how smart I'd be if had that same teacher the whole time |
| 19:34.24 | JoshH | fozzmoo: did you hear about that phoenix (or maybe tucson) where they strip searched some girl to find some ibuprofen pills or something? |
| 19:34.41 | JoshH | went to the supreme court iirc |
| 19:34.45 | Migs | I'm a recent convert to the idea of roleplaying in education. I just had a Second Life class where for 4 hours the teacher had us roleplay a sci-fi space squad, investigating a radiation leak. |
| 19:34.48 | fozzmoo | no, but I remember kids bringing pocketknives to school and it was no big. |
| 19:34.58 | JoshH | oh ya |
| 19:35.00 | Migs | I learned a TON about collaborative problem-solving from that one exercise |
| 19:35.11 | JoshH | the weapon policy stuff is kinda newish |
| 19:35.24 | sontek | you guys are so old with your pocket knives |
| 19:35.26 | fozzmoo | It's the whole thing where we should be clamping down on behavior and not stuff. |
| 19:35.27 | Migs | Not to mention it was hellafun |
| 19:35.29 | sontek | I grew up in the zero tolerance world |
| 19:35.38 | Migs | pffft, kids used to bring GUNS to school |
| 19:35.44 | Migs | pocketknives are nothing |
| 19:35.47 | neybar | I can understand the concern over bringing weapons to school, but what are you teaching kids when they can't have a pocket knife. In my not so humble opinion, you can't be a functioning member of society with out a pocket knife... :) |
| 19:35.48 | fugue88 | In the snow.. |
| 19:35.57 | fozzmoo | Yeah- I'm sure in many rural areas there were kids with rifles in their pickup trucks at the high school. |
| 19:35.57 | JoshH | i remember the first time i ever heard of a kid being expelled for having a plastic toy knife or something, it seemed so bizarre |
| 19:36.00 | Migs | exactly |
| 19:36.31 | Migs | in some of the Old West towns, kids would just haul their rifles right into class, though, or just leave them outside the door |
| 19:36.32 | JoshH | fozzmoo: it's true, one kid got kicked out of my texas school because someone saw a rifle in his truck in the parking lot. he had been hunting that morning. |
| 19:36.47 | Migs | I don't understand the double standard |
| 19:36.57 | JoshH | everyone was understanding of it and all, but they had to follow the policy |
| 19:37.01 | fugue88 | It's the pansies in the cities. |
| 19:37.01 | Migs | we say we have a right to bear arms, but not really |
| 19:37.07 | *** join/#utah gillyboat (~adam@70-89-247-187-ut.utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 19:37.10 | Migs | I think some kids should at least get a warning first |
| 19:37.27 | JoshH | well, it's a better safe than sorry thing really, when it comes to guns |
| 19:37.35 | JoshH | nobody wants their kid to be a school shooting victim, obviously |
| 19:37.41 | Migs | well I don't disagree. But if it's an honest mistake, then what's the problem? |
| 19:37.55 | JoshH | if it's an honest mistake, there should be some sort of review or appeal process to sort out the situation |
| 19:37.58 | Migs | A kid who really wants to be malicious will hide the gun more carefully, anyway |
| 19:38.03 | Migs | typically there is |
| 19:38.17 | Migs | but in those cases, the administration is the judge, jury, and executioner |
| 19:38.42 | fozzmoo | Then there's the argument that giving kids/teachers the ability to defend themselves would cut down on the carnage. |
| 19:38.59 | JoshH | what i don't get is this whole thing about the KKK hood kid at alta |
| 19:39.07 | JoshH | why did the principal have to resign for that? |
| 19:39.10 | JoshH | it's not like it was his idea |
| 19:39.15 | Migs | wait,w hat happened? |
| 19:39.26 | JoshH | some kid had a pillowcase on his head at an assembly or something |
| 19:39.38 | fozzmoo | From what I heard, the investigation revealed a bunch of stuff where the administration either tolerated or encouraged racist stuff. |
| 19:39.40 | JoshH | and some kids were claiming he was acting like some kkk guy and intimidating a black sudent |
| 19:40.02 | Migs | reading about it now...that seems like an overreaction |
| 19:40.05 | JoshH | i have a hard time imagining them actually encouraging anything racist |
| 19:40.08 | fozzmoo | The black student blogged about it. |
| 19:40.18 | fozzmoo | That's why it got as big as it did. |
| 19:40.20 | JoshH | "tolerating" can mean a lot of things |
| 19:40.49 | Migs | "the Canyons School District has uncovered evidence of other "serious incidents" that have occurred at the school over the past year, according to district spokeswoman Jennifer Toomer-Cook." |
| 19:40.49 | neybar | That whole alta thing really got blown out of perportion. My mother in law is a teacher there, and she was pretty stunned by how things turned out. |
| 19:40.54 | Migs | "The district has placed Mont Widerberg and Mark Montague, principal and vice principal of Alta High, respectively, on paid leave while the investigation of the incidents continues, a school employee said. " |
| 19:41.02 | Migs | so did the principal actually resign? |
| 19:41.07 | fozzmoo | yep. |
| 19:41.15 | fozzmoo | Before the district investigation was done. |
| 19:41.26 | Migs | There were probably more skeletons in the closet. |
| 19:41.33 | Migs | "The parents of the hood wearing teen jumped in to defend their son. They claim that his cry of "white power" and his white hood had NOTHING to do with racism." |
| 19:41.36 | Migs | See, this is another problem |
| 19:41.48 | Migs | If I'd pulled something like that, I would've expected a giant whooping from my dad when I got home |
| 19:41.49 | fozzmoo | The mother was pretty cool, actually. |
| 19:41.54 | neybar | one thing that I found interested is about the student that did the blogging and called the media. Evidently his father is writing a book about racism in utah. |
| 19:41.59 | JoshH | he was probably trying to be racist in a funny, ironic way or something |
| 19:42.07 | JoshH | rather than truly terrorize anyone |
| 19:42.07 | Migs | Regardless of whether I meant anything by it or not. "You should've known better, boy!" |
| 19:42.09 | fozzmoo | Actually it was spirit week... |
| 19:42.11 | JoshH | kids are dumb like that |
| 19:42.14 | fozzmoo | and white is one of the school colors. |
| 19:42.17 | fozzmoo | THnk about that. |
| 19:42.40 | fugue88 | gasps |
| 19:42.41 | JoshH | ya, sounds like he could have been trying to tie the school colors and racism together in a funny and immature way |
| 19:42.41 | fozzmoo | I'll ROLFMAO if they change the school colors. |
| 19:42.48 | fozzmoo | JoshH: Exactly. |
| 19:42.48 | fugue88 | The school colors are racist! |
| 19:42.56 | Migs | Parents nowadays refuse to discipline their children properly, or admit their children are in any wrongdoing. |
| 19:43.08 | goozbach | my little angel?! |
| 19:43.10 | goozbach | never!!! |
| 19:43.12 | JoshH | evanston still has the red devils as their mascot, thankfully none of the efforts to change that have gone through |
| 19:43.17 | Migs | Just recently our tech administrator was sharing some of the horror stories that have just happened in the past few weeks in some of our high schools |
| 19:43.18 | rsimpkins | Migs: That is a rather broad generalization. |
| 19:43.36 | Migs | I really don't think it is. Though maybe after experiencing so much of it, I'm just pessimistic. |
| 19:43.47 | JoshH | i think so |
| 19:43.53 | sontek | there was so many times my mom defeneded me when I was seriously in the wrong :P |
| 19:43.56 | JoshH | you're not going to hear the stories of the time some kid mouthed off and got grounded |
| 19:43.58 | fugue88 | rsimpkins: It's also a rather accurate broad generalization. |
| 19:44.01 | Migs | right |
| 19:44.11 | Migs | there's a lot that schools are able to keep out of the media, too |
| 19:44.16 | sontek | She even chewed out my football coach for making me run laps after practice when no one else was |
| 19:44.21 | sontek | but I totally deserved it :P |
| 19:44.23 | rsimpkins | fugue88: Accuracy would suggest emerical evidence. Which you've probably got links to. |
| 19:44.24 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 19:44.33 | Migs | you guys probably have no idea that there was a prostitution ring busted in one of Utah's high schools recently |
| 19:44.40 | fugue88 | rsimpkins: Yes, because all knowledge is on the webs. |
| 19:44.42 | fozzmoo | Whoa. Cool! |
| 19:44.44 | fozzmoo | I mean, that's awful! |
| 19:44.52 | goozbach | Migs: really?! |
| 19:45.01 | Migs | Yes. The kids were using codewords on Facebook to organize the whole thing. |
| 19:45.04 | JoshH | i'll say that i would personally love being a teacher, and i think it could be a great career. but having to deal with obnoxious parents, inane regulations and rules, and low pay would mean i would never try to go into it |
| 19:45.16 | fugue88 | Migs: Please blog about your experiences here, so that I can give links to people. |
| 19:45.19 | fugue88 | ;) |
| 19:45.20 | JoshH | which means the people that don't mind that stuff will be the teachers |
| 19:45.21 | rsimpkins | If it ain't on the Interwebz it ain't worth knowin'! That's what I always say. |
| 19:45.23 | Migs | oh that's just the tip of the iceberg. There's a LOT that doesn't hit the papers. Nor do I think it should. |
| 19:45.36 | Migs | Parents would yank their kids out of public schools so fast if they knew all the crap that goes on. |
| 19:45.56 | JoshH | whatever happened to the cheerleaders just beign sluts? is that so old fashioned? |
| 19:46.01 | JoshH | now they are charging? |
| 19:46.05 | fozzmoo | ~JoshH++ |
| 19:46.39 | Migs | speaking of cheerleaders, here's another one...couple weeks ago, a sports team surrounded a cheerleader on the field |
| 19:46.49 | Migs | convinced her to take her top off. So she does. |
| 19:47.08 | JoshH | that's pretty common |
| 19:47.09 | Migs | Parents raise a giant stink about it. Except the parents of the boys insist the girl was a slut for doing so and their kids weren't at fault. The parents of the girl insist the boys coerced her. |
| 19:47.14 | sontek | The cheerleaders are free, its the dancers that charge |
| 19:47.16 | Migs | None of them takes responsibility for their own kids. |
| 19:47.30 | Migs | That is the problem. Kids are so used to having mom and dad come rescue them. |
| 19:47.32 | sontek | you guys probably didn't have a separation of the 2 when you were in school |
| 19:47.36 | JoshH | migs, agreed on that |
| 19:47.54 | Migs | JoshH: Yeah, I know it happens a lot. My concern is how the parents reacted. |
| 19:48.00 | JoshH | at least they didn't have the token gay male cheerleader strip |
| 19:48.02 | sontek | But they got fancy with codewords and everything, our school it was just word of mouth |
| 19:48.11 | JoshH | then, there would have been a firestorm about the homosexual agenda infiltrating schools |
| 19:48.20 | Migs | there was also a junior high girl who was charging boys $1 to lift up her shirt. |
| 19:48.30 | Migs | Guess what her parents did? Nothing. They thought she was being entrepreneural. |
| 19:48.53 | fugue88 | Uh... |
| 19:49.10 | fugue88 | uh... |
| 19:49.12 | Migs | Like I said...I'm kind of pessimistic. |
| 19:49.27 | Migs | Mainly because I see or hear about all the quality parenting going on in our schools |
| 19:49.30 | sjansen | http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/novell-completes-merger-with-attachmate-and-patent-sale-to-cptn-holdings-llc-120784114.html |
| 19:49.36 | JoshH | i don't know how to fix that though, other than separate schools for girls and boys. but that stuff even happens when you really try to stop it. you've all heard abotu "catholic schoolgirl" stories, i'm sure |
| 19:49.58 | JoshH | when you have horny teens together all day, that's just plain going to happen |
| 19:50.12 | neybar | chastity belts. |
| 19:50.14 | Migs | oh sure. But prostitution rings? |
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| 19:50.29 | JoshH | doesn't surprise me |
| 19:50.29 | Migs | That seems excessive |
| 19:50.42 | Migs | It was a single girl who was acting as the pimp and organizing the whole thing, too |
| 19:50.55 | Migs | I'm sure it's not the only time, either |
| 19:50.55 | JoshH | kids are much more knowledgeable than adults realize these days, and they try to be "mature" although they really aren't |
| 19:51.04 | fozzmoo | Now, I think it could be really educational to have kids set up a mock prostitution ring. :) |
| 19:51.07 | Migs | haha, I love how high school girls always claim to be "mature" |
| 19:51.08 | eightyeight | that reminds me of a story |
| 19:51.22 | fozzmoo | Role playing. "Now you've got a disease." |
| 19:51.30 | eightyeight | when i was in high school, we had this student teacher for the last 3-4 months of math class |
| 19:51.32 | Migs | that cracked me up even back when I was in high school. They think just because they don't laugh at farts they're "more mature" |
| 19:51.40 | JoshH | "now your customer is the seattle strangler" |
| 19:51.41 | Migs | hahaha fozzmoo |
| 19:51.43 | fozzmoo | "You just made $4000 for doing this explicit act with this guy." |
| 19:52.01 | eightyeight | first thing she said: "you're all adults, so i'm going to treat you like adults. i only ask the same in return that you treat me the same" |
| 19:52.11 | eightyeight | problem? we weren't adults |
| 19:52.13 | Migs | lol...and did they? |
| 19:52.35 | goozbach | eightyeight: we had a teacher do something similar |
| 19:52.38 | fozzmoo | Yeah- I don't think the mock prostitution thing would fly. Maybe in NV. |
| 19:52.38 | eightyeight | however, she said that we were entitled to bring food/drink to class, which was a major no-no with the teacher |
| 19:52.46 | JoshH | honestly though, i think if we did treat kids more like adults and have higher expectations of them, they would be different. i've never liked how schools basically seemed like day cares, with stupid things like hall passes and all that |
| 19:52.51 | eightyeight | so, it started small. dr pepper can, or twix |
| 19:52.54 | fozzmoo | JoshH: ditto. |
| 19:52.57 | goozbach | she lasted ohhh about 30min |
| 19:53.00 | JoshH | HS should be almost identical to college IMO |
| 19:53.03 | eightyeight | but, as the semester progressed, it got worse, and worse |
| 19:53.14 | Migs | JoshH: I don't entirely agree. Kids need structure. It's often for the better. |
| 19:53.14 | goozbach | we piled up the desks in the back of the room, and completely ignored her |
| 19:53.24 | JoshH | they need structure, but they don't need to be treated like babies |
| 19:53.27 | Migs | But yeah, things like hall passes...I'm not sure I see the point anymore. |
| 19:53.33 | eightyeight | by the end of the semester, i kid you not, a student brought in several deli rolls, lettuce, tomatos, cheese, etc for making hogies |
| 19:53.35 | goozbach | she left to go get the principle and we put them all back and sat as nice as angels |
| 19:53.38 | Migs | A student who really wants to skip class is going to do so |
| 19:53.43 | goozbach | when the principle came back |
| 19:53.44 | Migs | No need to punish the good students |
| 19:54.01 | JoshH | and the whole idea of needing permission to see a pg13 movie too is dumb |
| 19:54.01 | Migs | that is so awesome eightyeight |
| 19:54.04 | eightyeight | she never said a word, but you know that deep down, she was regretting the fact that she called us adults, and gave us free reign of food/drink |
| 19:54.14 | goozbach | she freaked out and left |
| 19:54.32 | eightyeight | high school kids just aren't adults. no matter what. |
| 19:54.42 | JoshH | they're going to home to facebook after school and read about how their best friends new boyfriend is super welll endowed. no need to pretend they can't hear a few S words |
| 19:55.03 | Migs | once a teacher loses the kids, they're often lost forever |
| 19:55.05 | neybar | I'm not certian that you could even classify college students as adults. |
| 19:55.11 | JoshH | you can't |
| 19:55.11 | fozzmoo | You might be able to get away with that kind of stuff in the Honors or AP classes. |
| 19:55.20 | fozzmoo | But I can't imagine it going well with the general student population. |
| 19:55.21 | Migs | Right |
| 19:56.05 | JoshH | the idea that an 18 year old seeing people blown to bits in iraq was needing a hall pass to go around the building and a parent slip to learn about body parts is pretty ridiculous |
| 19:56.19 | JoshH | and whenever I drive past the U of U these days, the kids there all look like 12 year olds to me |
| 19:56.25 | Migs | yeah, what's with that? |
| 19:56.26 | JoshH | it makes me feel so old |
| 19:56.30 | Migs | college students look so much younger now |
| 19:56.38 | Migs | are humans shrinking? |
| 19:56.41 | fozzmoo | hee hee. |
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| 19:57.12 | influx | minecraft? |
| 19:57.15 | influx | ^^ |
| 19:57.24 | Migs | even the teachers. I had a microbiology teacher that I assumed was a short high school girl at first, until she started talking, and I found she was almost 40, with a PhD under her belt |
| 19:57.39 | fozzmoo | She kept it there all the time?! |
| 19:58.00 | Migs | ALL the time. |
| 19:58.19 | Migs | When I get a PhD, I'm putting it in a time capsule |
| 19:58.25 | Migs | maybe someone can use it 100 years from now |
| 19:59.56 | Migs | http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2011/04/27location_qa.html |
| 20:04.36 | eightyeight | of course big brother will deny it |
| 20:04.53 | eightyeight | you honestly think they would admit to snooping on the general public? |
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| 20:08.42 | sjansen | In my opinion, the modern American school system is a deeply unnatural thing. |
| 20:09.32 | sjansen | We all understand the importance of role models, yet we bottle kids up so that they spend most of their day with people the same age. |
| 20:09.52 | JoshH | it's like lord of the flies except with a little bit of supervision |
| 20:10.25 | jsmith | "Kill the pig! Kill the pig!" |
| 20:10.32 | findlay | ~sjansen the modern American school |
| 20:10.32 | ibot | ACTION tells the modern American school good things about sjansen |
| 20:10.37 | jsmith | whistles |
| 20:11.43 | sjansen | There are reason we moved to an industrial-style education system, but it sure would be nice to find a way to make the old one-room school system scale to meet modern reality. |
| 20:13.04 | findlay | if your project primarily consists of a large library, do you prefer building each piece at a time and then linking all the pieces together in a structural approach motivated by per-directory objects, or do you prefer direct the action from the perspective of a "build/" directory and join all the objects monolithically? Are there any advantages/disadvantages to either approach? Which is more amenable to automake? |
| 20:14.16 | JoshH | hmm, i wonder where this woman went to school (if at all): http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=15315109 |
| 20:15.32 | findlay | more importantly, is it possible to convince the Gnu/autothicket to build stuff automagically for you even if your project consists of lots of seperate files with high entropy? |
| 20:16.54 | findlay | if I create a new file, do I have to explicitly tell automake about it? $(shell ...) only gets evaluated at make time |
| 20:17.01 | Migs | Quality parenting there, JoshH |
| 20:18.33 | eightyeight | JoshH: possibly she was a child of overprotective parents, got a 4.0 in school, but decided to live a little after flying the coop? |
| 20:21.00 | sjansen | findlay: Friends don't let friends use automake. |
| 20:21.36 | goozbach | related: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-dXrmFMOoU |
| 20:21.54 | shalkie | JoshH: She may have been a good student and a good mother. From that article it sounds like it was an abuse of prescription drugs and that can start under a doctors supervision. |
| 20:21.58 | goozbach | findlay: why not just plain make? |
| 20:22.25 | findlay | goozbach: `tis complicated |
| 20:22.27 | findlay | sighs |
| 20:22.57 | findlay | besides, just using 'plain make' isn't going to really solve any of my associated problems |
| 20:24.00 | findlay | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:24.27 | findlay | I'll get something hacked out. Somehow |
| 20:26.04 | fozzmoo | ~goozbach++ |
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| 20:37.34 | JoshH | shalkie: nonsense, she's clearly been a loser her whole life! |
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