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| 03:24.14 | findlay | hi |
| 03:25.16 | findlay | ~random |
| 03:25.30 | findlay | yay |
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| 05:36.15 | Gate | ~random |
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| 12:04.36 | eightyeight | ~rlart |
| 12:04.36 | ibot | hurls dozens of incontinent, insomniac, hungry kittens with tiny little razor-sharp claws and a wide variety of contagious intestinal parasites at jpwhiting |
| 12:06.09 | jpwhiting | eightyeight: heya |
| 12:06.12 | jpwhiting | how's it going? |
| 12:07.53 | eightyeight | good |
| 12:08.14 | eightyeight | wasting some time before i login to work |
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| 16:24.36 | *** topic/#utah is logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | minecraft multiplayer: plug.org | eightyeight has now joined the fold of the educated |
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| 19:53.24 | JoshH | votes sjansen for attorney general |
| 19:57.19 | eightyeight | if i've already signed a key, but gpg did not ask me about the level of checking i did, apparently it signs it with cert-level 0. how can i update it to level 2? |
| 20:01.47 | JoshH | whoa, ksl turned comments back on |
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| 20:46.41 | fadein | Has anybody seen ideone.com before? It's like a pastebin crossed with a REPL for 40 or so programming languages. |
| 20:46.49 | sjansen | Wow, Source Mage still exists. |
| 20:47.14 | fadein | kind of a cool idea; i wonder if someone else has done it before... |
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| 21:01.55 | sontek | fadein: have you seen mozilla's ace project? |
| 21:02.23 | sontek | http://ace.ajax.org/ |
| 21:02.48 | sontek | http://ajaxorg.github.com/ace/build/editor.html for live demo |
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| 21:04.14 | sontek | http://ajaxorg.github.com/ace/ to define what language and everything |
| 21:04.49 | sontek | They have textmate and vim modes |
| 21:05.01 | amjith_ | sontek: is that purely an editor or is it possible to run and see the output? |
| 21:05.57 | fozzmoo | booo. No Perl syntax highlighting. |
| 21:06.16 | JoshH | they think nobody uses perl anymore |
| 21:08.02 | sontek | amjith_: There are plugins for it so you can execute certain languages |
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| 21:16.12 | sjansen | I thought Perl was dead. It was accidentally deleted when the last *BSD in existence was turned off. |
| 21:16.54 | eightyeight | heh. perl. |
| 21:17.17 | eightyeight | the ugly red headed child that just. won't. die. |
| 21:17.26 | eightyeight | ducks |
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| 21:35.15 | neybar | how do you switch modes? It seemed to stay in insert mode. |
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| 22:07.54 | pashdown | who is dissin' my beloved perl? |
| 22:08.15 | fozzmoo | Not I. :) |
| 22:08.25 | fozzmoo | These blasphemers. |
| 22:08.39 | fozzmoo | If Perl died, it'd take half the Net with it. |
| 22:08.40 | JoshH | can't someone with ops kickban them? |
| 22:08.46 | JoshH | seriously |
| 22:08.46 | fadein | speaking of Perl, I wish they had one of these for Perl 5: http://www.ozonehouse.com/mark/periodic/ |
| 22:09.36 | fozzmoo | Well, 5.10 and 5.12 have started incorporating some of the 6 operators. |
| 22:09.37 | fadein | these whipper-snappers and their Python and their C#. I'll give *you* managed! |
| 22:09.41 | pashdown | is perl6 that different? |
| 22:09.59 | fozzmoo | It is pretty different. |
| 22:10.08 | pashdown | PADME NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO |
| 22:10.08 | fozzmoo | Object orientation isn't an afterthought, for one thing. |
| 22:10.19 | fadein | fozzmoo: I've noticed that. Need to convice the uppers at work to upgrade from 5.8 |
| 22:10.30 | pashdown | will i have to *learn stuff* to upgrade? |
| 22:10.36 | fozzmoo | And the loose typing. |
| 22:10.41 | fozzmoo | is gone. |
| 22:10.47 | pashdown | i'm fully against knowledge |
| 22:10.51 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 22:11.05 | fozzmoo | Perl 5 still has a long life ahead of it. |
| 22:11.06 | goozbach | fadein: I have an old perl periodic table, I don't remember which version |
| 22:11.17 | fadein | goozbach: link, plz? |
| 22:11.32 | goozbach | fadein: I'll have to dig it out of the closet and post the link later |
| 22:11.39 | goozbach | will do tonight |
| 22:11.40 | eightyeight | you old farts, and your die-hard habits |
| 22:11.45 | sjansen | pashdown: Sounds like you have the management philosophy down cold. You should start a business or something. ;-) |
| 22:11.47 | eightyeight | ebmrace the future! |
| 22:11.57 | fadein | I'd like a Perl5 one to give to folks here at work. There's only two of us that learned Perl before working here, and everybody else is learning Perl from our ancient codebase |
| 22:12.24 | fadein | so, naturally, (most) everybody here has a pretty negative opinion of Perl |
| 22:12.36 | goozbach | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:12.45 | goozbach | but I'm starting to really love python |
| 22:12.47 | pashdown | that is what you get for being born after a language |
| 22:12.47 | fadein | I keep telling them that the language has come along way since Perl 4 (which is what most of our code was based on) |
| 22:12.49 | sjansen | fadein: Have you company give everyone a copy of Perl Best Practices for mother's day. |
| 22:12.58 | goozbach | please forgive me |
| 22:13.07 | fozzmoo | sjansen is right, actually. |
| 22:13.12 | goozbach | ~PBP++ |
| 22:13.13 | fadein | sjansen: that's the funny part. everybody has a copy of the Camel book. I think I'm the only one to have actually opened it |
| 22:13.17 | fozzmoo | And the post-modern Perl book. |
| 22:13.26 | fadein | and by funny, I of course mean sad |
| 22:13.35 | fadein | most of our Perl code was obviously written by C guys |
| 22:13.36 | pashdown | fadein for other things besides the regex page? |
| 22:13.50 | pashdown | don be dissin' my c |
| 22:13.55 | JoshH | i've read my camel almost cover to cover |
| 22:13.57 | fadein | pashdown: heh, yeah. they may have looked at that chapter |
| 22:13.58 | JoshH | but i just enjoy reading |
| 22:14.17 | fozzmoo | And if you're really masochistic, Higher Order Perl should be on your reading list. |
| 22:14.18 | fadein | one guy here added prototypes to all of his subroutines because "that's what you do in C" |
| 22:14.27 | fozzmoo | ewww. |
| 22:14.39 | fadein | then he'd call all of this subs with the & sigil, thus negating the benefits of the prototype |
| 22:14.44 | fozzmoo | heh heh. |
| 22:14.58 | pashdown | just in case he needs them |
| 22:15.10 | fadein | I got all over him in a code review for that one, and... it's a long, sad story, tl;dr entropy won :( |
| 22:19.43 | sjansen | The Camel book is a heckuva a way to get started with Perl. |
| 22:20.05 | sjansen | I started with the Llama book, but having used it to teach I can't really recommend it. |
| 22:20.45 | JoshH | i startd with the llama too |
| 22:20.48 | JoshH | i think most people did |
| 22:21.15 | sjansen | A few months ago we ran a Perl class using http://www.onyxneon.com/books/modern_perl/index.html |
| 22:21.42 | sjansen | It went reasonably well. The print quality is good and there's a free PDF version. |
| 22:22.11 | fozzmoo | Yeah. It's a great book. |
| 22:22.17 | fozzmoo | If just for the Moose chapter. |
| 22:22.30 | fozzmoo | sjansen: I didn't know that. That's awesome. |
| 22:22.33 | goozbach | moose deps are a bear to install though |
| 22:22.51 | fozzmoo | yum install perl-Moose ? |
| 22:23.07 | fozzmoo | (On Fedora.) |
| 22:23.14 | goozbach | is running old centos |
| 22:23.18 | fozzmoo | Okay then. :) |
| 22:23.19 | goozbach | :) |
| 22:23.28 | fozzmoo | I started with the Camel book. |
| 22:23.40 | goozbach | fedora != production worthy servers |
| 22:23.47 | goozbach | well for this use case |
| 22:24.28 | sjansen | *gasp* You use your vendor perl? But... but... I thought all Perl RPMs were tainted by the sulfurous stink of evil. |
| 22:24.39 | JoshH | the camel is probably a good way to start for people who already know a fair amount about programming, after a quick tutorial to cover the basics |
| 22:24.46 | fozzmoo | Exactly. |
| 22:24.56 | sjansen | goozbach: At this point it is questionable whether CentOS is production worthy either. |
| 22:25.02 | goozbach | sjansen: amen |
| 22:25.05 | fozzmoo | I'd been doing a lot of C and, uhm, PHP v2, at that point (circa 1998) |
| 22:25.15 | goozbach | hence what we've been working on in #utos |
| 22:25.24 | goozbach | RHEL6 however is |
| 22:25.32 | fozzmoo | goozbach: I wish I knew what you were working on in #utos |
| 22:25.45 | JoshH | i like K&R so much that i almost want to be a C programmer just to have more of a use for it, but i've only ever made simple things like the exercise answers |
| 22:25.48 | goozbach | empty page now: gooseproject.org |
| 22:25.49 | sjansen | grumbles about RHEL6 |
| 22:26.02 | sjansen | The more I dig into RHEL6 the less I like it. |
| 22:26.05 | goozbach | but what it'll become: http://blog.friocorte.com/2011/04/bootstrapping-a-rhel-clone.html |
| 22:26.09 | goozbach | sjansen: like what? |
| 22:26.33 | sjansen | NetworkManager on servers. |
| 22:26.42 | goozbach | *shudder* |
| 22:27.12 | sjansen | Other stuff that doesn't come to mind right now. Some of it is in the #utah logs. |
| 22:27.45 | sjansen | Just today we discovered the handling of /etc/cron.{daily,weekly,monthly} has changed. |
| 22:27.59 | goozbach | oh really? |
| 22:28.02 | sjansen | While I understand the motivation, I can't help but feel the solution is hackish. |
| 22:28.09 | goozbach | needs to do more with his rhel6 install |
| 22:28.43 | JoshH | removing NetworkManager is the first thing i do on any new install, except for a netbook i sometimes use, since it's kinda handy for wireless |
| 22:28.55 | JoshH | the thought of it on a server is awful |
| 22:29.13 | sjansen | I love NetworkManager on my laptop, but on a server... |
| 22:29.48 | goozbach | makes a note |
| 22:29.50 | fozzmoo | Yeah- Not sure we need a service to set a static IP. |
| 22:29.54 | sjansen | Do a minimal install and NetworkManager won't be installed, but the installer will create ifcfg-* files that depend on it. |
| 22:30.07 | sjansen | In other words, out of the box your network is pooched. |
| 22:30.12 | fozzmoo | yeesh. |
| 22:30.20 | goozbach | sounds like a bug |
| 22:30.25 | sjansen | It is. |
| 22:30.37 | fozzmoo | So, what we really need is CentOS 5 w/ Perl 5.12. Is that what you're saying? :) |
| 22:30.38 | sjansen | There's a bunch of silly bugs like that in RHEL6. |
| 22:31.02 | sjansen | A direct result of going 3+ freaking years and letting such a giant pile of massive architecture changes build up. |
| 22:32.00 | sjansen | goozbach: So have you figured out how cron.{daily,weekly,monthly} is handled yet? |
| 22:32.20 | sjansen | They're not in /etc/cronttab anymore. |
| 22:32.35 | sjansen | They're in /etc/anacrontab. |
| 22:32.47 | goozbach | anacrontab? |
| 22:32.48 | goozbach | interesting |
| 22:33.03 | sjansen | "But how is anacron running them more than once?" I hear you ask. |
| 22:33.07 | goozbach | anacron is still in /etc/crontab no? |
| 22:33.20 | sjansen | Simple. /etc/cron.hourly/0anacron |
| 22:33.20 | goozbach | s/still/now/ |
| 22:33.41 | sjansen | There isn't anything in /etc/crontab. |
| 22:33.47 | goozbach | ??? |
| 22:33.49 | goozbach | boggle |
| 22:35.04 | goozbach | what kicks off /etc/cron.hourly/* |
| 22:35.05 | goozbach | ? |
| 22:35.20 | sjansen | Glad you asked. /etc/cron.d/0hourly |
| 22:35.42 | goozbach | and /etc/cron.d/ is run from crond? |
| 22:35.52 | goozbach | seems very suse'ish |
| 22:36.45 | sjansen | RH rarely copies much from SUSE. There are comments that indicate it's based on Debian. |
| 22:38.17 | sjansen | 1) Directories are better than files. Adding and removing files is easier than munging /etc/crontab |
| 22:38.27 | JoshH | my ubuntu natty install seems to use /etc/crontab instead of /var/spool/cron/crontabs (which is now empty). afaik that's new |
| 22:38.51 | goozbach | well I was stating the suse tendicies to call a simple config from a stack 7 scripts deep |
| 22:38.53 | sjansen | 2) There's a potential race condition between cron and anacron. |
| 22:38.58 | JoshH | i don't really pay attention to what changes in distros anymore these days though |
| 22:39.37 | sjansen | JoshH: That's just user crontabs vs system crontab. |
| 22:39.59 | JoshH | it used to have root's crontab in there, which was empty iirc, and most cronjobs in the /etc/cron* directories |
| 22:40.40 | JoshH | maybe if i added crontab entries for root they would go back to the spool location |
| 22:41.26 | JoshH | my /etc/crontab just has anacron stuff for running cron.hourly/daily/etc |
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