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| 16:18.29 | *** topic/#utah by sjansen -> logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | minecraft multiplayer: plug.org | Do you know the muffin man? |
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| 17:10.09 | elg | ~lart sjansen |
| 17:10.09 | ibot | makes a balloon animal out of sjansen |
| 17:12.37 | elg | sjansen: let's pretend I have a library, whose source code is in a git repository. Now, in another independent place I want to build an rpm based on a tag of that git repo. now comes my "i'm too impatient to go read the rpm docs before asking sjansen question": can an rpm spec file do something like check out the repo at that tag, and run the configure/build process? |
| 17:13.03 | sjansen | no |
| 17:14.06 | sjansen | But it's trivial to create a script that turns a git tag into a tar ball which, when combined with a spec file, can be used to build RPMs. |
| 17:14.08 | elg | ok. but probably I could do that sort of evil in a build script that is called by rpm at build time. |
| 17:14.22 | sjansen | Probably not. |
| 17:14.23 | elg | or that. that seems cleaner |
| 17:14.46 | elg | how not? building runs arbitrary code |
| 17:14.58 | sjansen | rpmbuild expect a tar ball to work with |
| 17:15.34 | elg | a tarball that contains a build script, ya? |
| 17:15.44 | sjansen | Correct. |
| 17:16.05 | sjansen | Although if you wanted to crazy go nuts, you could patch in your own build system. |
| 17:16.09 | elg | but I do like the generate-tarball-from-git approach better. if it fits the wonkiness they're doing |
| 17:17.03 | elg | still figuring out exactly what that wonkiness is, but they're checking in a bunch of projects in an svn repo and calling them externals, and supposedly using rpm to build them. but they're not tarballs, they're full source trees |
| 17:17.59 | elg | hmm, i guess they're checking it in post-build |
| 17:18.09 | elg | why don't they !@#! just use rpms |
| 17:18.23 | sjansen | Well... if you're willing to get a little fancy (and brittle IMNSHO) you can tell rpmbuild to start the process after expanding the tar ball... |
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| 17:27.48 | jsmith | elg: You should just build yourself a Koji server :-) |
| 17:28.11 | jsmith | It's overkill, but it'll make your life easier :-) |
| 17:29.46 | mheath_ | hmm, random question/poll time |
| 17:30.02 | mheath_ | Those of you that work in a larger IT environment, how strict is your Change Management process? |
| 17:30.36 | elg | that depends on what you mean by $buzzword |
| 17:33.39 | elg | i don't suppose rpm could happily install a subset of packages with a different prefix. like, libfoo and libbar in prefix=$HOME but if they depend on stuff that's already installed system-wide, don't pull those dependencies also into $HOME |
| 17:36.08 | sjansen | mheath_: My experience at $UNIVERSITY is that strict change management gets routed around. Employee do the change control dance once, get it past a committee of people that don't understand the issues involved, then milk the approval for as much real work as possible. |
| 17:36.59 | mheath_ | I just got promoted to a position in charge of Chanage Management at my company |
| 17:37.05 | sjansen | elg: I've read your question several times and I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say. |
| 17:37.08 | mheath_ | PReviously, our process was very sloppy at best |
| 17:37.39 | mheath_ | and I'm playing with ideas on how to improve it, but I'm not sure where the balancing point is |
| 17:37.55 | sjansen | elg: Instead of depending on packages, you can depend on files, libraries, capabilities, etc. |
| 17:38.01 | elg | concrete example. mcproxy depends on libmc and libevent. libmc is an internal library that also depends on a couple other internal libraries. |
| 17:38.32 | elg | libevent is a system library. in a perfect world I just make rpms for libmc and friends |
| 17:39.38 | elg | but for various reasons installing these under-development internal libraries system-wide is too inflexible. |
| 17:41.05 | elg | we just do good ol' autotools with --prefix and it works fine. but this fancy system that other parts of the company use that is half-baked rpmish, wants to import all our source code and I don't really want to maintain two source repos for the same source. |
| 17:41.53 | elg | so i'm wondering if there's a better way, and that better way would potentially involve RPMs in special prefix. but I don't want that to cascade and pull in libevent, libwhateverlibeventdependson, libc, etc. |
| 17:41.56 | sjansen | mheath_: My personal opinion is that you should strive for two things: autonomy and accountability. |
| 17:42.39 | sjansen | Strict change control is self defeating. Decision should be made by those best informed to make the decision. Generally, that means ground level employees. |
| 17:43.07 | sjansen | In other words, management picks the direction and the employees find the path. |
| 17:43.48 | sjansen | Of course, that scares the heck out of many management types. They feel their job as leader is to dictate, when in truth a good leader facilitates. |
| 17:44.07 | mheath_ | sjansen, I'm hoping to implement a tiered approach. |
| 17:44.28 | mheath_ | Simpler changes don't require the same massive approval and structure |
| 17:44.39 | mheath_ | but are still tracked under the same system for documentation purposes, etc |
| 17:44.45 | goozbach | mheath_: a list of things that each level can decide without approval is nice |
| 17:44.46 | sjansen | So if you're "in charge" of change management, you should be working to facilitate communication, not approve change. |
| 17:44.54 | goozbach | that's a good start |
| 17:44.56 | goozbach | for example: |
| 17:45.14 | goozbach | at my first "real job" I had an informal change management system |
| 17:45.22 | sjansen | Let teams approve change. Your job is to encourage teams work better within the group and with other groups. |
| 17:46.13 | goozbach | I could spend up to $500, for anything and get reembursed. I couldn't however make decisions about where to allot our computing resources (which were scarce) |
| 17:46.52 | goozbach | we had one employee who made a habit of asking the CEO for something, and when the CEO said "no" he would come into the IT department and ask again |
| 17:47.13 | goozbach | stuff like "I need a faster desktop for sally here, she's complaining it's too slow" |
| 17:47.31 | goozbach | he'd bring it up to the CEO, CEO would say no, then he'd come ask us |
| 17:48.05 | goozbach | little did he know I had a discussion with the CEO as to what my responsibilities and perogitive was |
| 17:48.16 | goozbach | when he came asking, I'd ask the CEO |
| 17:48.40 | goozbach | on this paticualr day, he left from the CEO's office, walked right into mine, and asked for a new computer. |
| 17:49.10 | goozbach | I didn't even respond, I picked up my phone, dialed the CEO's extension and said, "john here wants a new computer, that cool?" |
| 17:49.22 | goozbach | the CEO responded, "I just finished telling him no!" |
| 17:49.33 | goozbach | I said I was sorry, and he left in a huff |
| 17:50.00 | mheath_ | Well, our use for change management is more 'prevent things from getting broken' and less 'make sure management rubber stamps their financial approval' |
| 17:50.53 | mheath_ | Currently, our teams will rather arbitrarily decide if a particular change warrants inclusion in our change management process. If it does, theres tons of rules - two weeks notice, except for emergencies, tons of approvals, etc., etc. |
| 17:51.10 | goozbach | my point is, that having a self-directed team, the management's job is to dictate what can and can't be decided without further review |
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| 17:51.32 | mheath_ | I'm hoping to get it set up so that everything except for the most trivial changes are included in our process, but theres different levels |
| 17:51.39 | goozbach | and as sjansen said, management needs to get out of the way, and keep others out of the way |
| 17:51.43 | mheath_ | so the teams aren't scared or annoyed to submit a change item for review |
| 17:51.47 | sjansen | Like I said, autonomy and accountability. Each team should have its own budget and get to use it as it wishes. Hardware, books, training, whatever is needed to get the job done. To avoid abuse, add accountability. If the job doesn't get done, people get fired. |
| 17:52.42 | sjansen | Both are inseparable. Accountability without autonomy is abuse. Autonomy without accountability is stupidity. |
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| 17:54.16 | sjansen | mheath_: Sounds like your process needs to be fixed. |
| 17:55.00 | mheath_ | yeah, and its going to be an uphill battle |
| 17:55.25 | sjansen | If you want something done, make it the easiest thing to do. Good workers always route around bureaucracy because they realize their real responsibility it keeping the company running smoothly, not filling out forms. |
| 17:56.58 | sjansen | It's like cvs, svn, and git. Using revision control is a pain in the butt, but after it saves your bacon a few times you'll come to love it even if it means typing a few more commands. |
| 17:57.38 | sjansen | But revision control is just the start. |
| 17:58.38 | sjansen | Branching in CVS was such a pain that no one ever did it. Along came SVN and improved the situation, suddenly people discovered branching is amazing. CVS was broken, not branching. |
| 17:59.40 | sjansen | Your first step is figuring out what the stake holders real needs are. |
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| 18:00.04 | jsmith | sjansen: They need people to be autonomous and accountable... |
| 18:00.13 | jsmith | sjansen: And more productive, and less costly |
| 18:00.34 | jsmith | sjansen: Did I miss anything? |
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| 18:01.17 | sjansen | Management want to prevent errors. Workers do too. Unfortunately, each sees the relationship as a conflict instead of collaboration. |
| 18:01.27 | sjansen | Management is too cheap. |
| 18:01.32 | sjansen | Workers are too stupid. |
| 18:01.52 | sjansen | Each could accomplish their goals if only the other would stop screwing things up. |
| 18:03.50 | sjansen | Of course I'm just guessing about your situation, but after visiting a lot of companies you start to see patterns. |
| 18:04.00 | jsmith | sjansen: Or anti-patterns, as the case may be |
| 18:05.21 | sjansen | Unless you work for a company like Enron, chances are most of the people in the company are good people stuck in a bad system replicating 20th century mass production systems. |
| 18:10.12 | sjansen | mheath_: As long as I'm on my soap box, let me take a moment to make another point: embrace ownership. |
| 18:10.54 | sjansen | Sometimes management gets the idea that if only workers were more like sprockets, the company would be stronger. |
| 18:11.07 | mheath_ | yep |
| 18:11.35 | sjansen | When everyone is responsible, no one is responsible. |
| 18:12.40 | sjansen | Sure, all the devs should have a working knowledge of the Web server config, but if Bob is especially passionate about Apache, let him take point. |
| 18:13.31 | sjansen | It'll happen anyway, but by officially acknowledging the situation you can design better process. "All Web server changes should be run past Bob to see if he cares." |
| 18:14.02 | sjansen | Not "for Bob's approval" but instead "make sure Bob knows". |
| 18:14.55 | sjansen | That way, if Bob ignores the change it can go proceed quickly without taking any more than the minimum amount of Bob's time. |
| 18:18.05 | sjansen | In an ideal world, good change control could be accomplished with a wiki integrated with an online calendar. |
| 18:18.51 | goozbach | our change control at Cox Radio was a wiki page |
| 18:19.08 | goozbach | true, only I and the other sysadmin had access to do a deploy to production |
| 18:19.25 | goozbach | but dev had both a development and QA stack to test their changes |
| 18:19.37 | goozbach | and they had full rein on those servers |
| 18:20.06 | sjansen | No committee meetings. No approval forms filled out in triplicate. Loosely coupled architectures. Staging environments. Effective unit tests and monitoring. Fully automated deployment processes. |
| 18:21.57 | sjansen | One the surprising discoveries of the last decade is that unless your in a high risk environment like a nuclear power plant, it is generally safer to make frequent changes than to avoid change. |
| 18:22.18 | goozbach | the last was lacking when I started, I got a good deal done with making deployments go faster |
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| 18:23.15 | sjansen | If you're making constant minor changes you'll generally be able to detect and resolve any problems quickly. |
| 18:23.31 | goozbach | sjansen: given proper monitoring |
| 18:23.40 | goozbach | or unit/functional tests |
| 18:24.14 | goozbach | heck, just understanding what a change does helps immensley |
| 18:24.21 | sjansen | If you go month or years between major changes, it's simply too much to deal with effectively. No matter how hard they try, everyone is going to be going by the seat of their pants because they get so little practice. |
| 18:24.34 | goozbach | for that reason we did weekly deploys to production |
| 18:24.41 | goozbach | so they were forced to stay small |
| 18:25.09 | Gate | Have either of you studied the agile manifesto? |
| 18:25.39 | goozbach | Gate: we do something agile'ish now |
| 18:25.41 | sjansen | Studied? No. Aware of, yes. |
| 18:25.43 | elg | we push every week |
| 18:25.51 | goozbach | haven't studied it either |
| 18:26.00 | Gate | a dev process that encourages small two-week iterations on software |
| 18:26.04 | elg | and every weekday we push smaller changes (bugfixes) |
| 18:26.21 | goozbach | mheath_: that's probably a good read for your change mgmt ideas |
| 18:26.26 | sjansen | I've never worked anywhere that fully embraced agile. But, like most people, I've worked in environments that wanted to call what they were already doing "agile". |
| 18:26.34 | Gate | the idea being that a deploy to production should be a "non-event" |
| 18:26.44 | Gate | it should simply happen without being noticed. |
| 18:26.46 | elg | so if I make a change that isn't urgent today, it will be in the release cut on sunday evening, and pushed on tuesday afternoon |
| 18:27.03 | goozbach | sjansen: at my current place it's as close to agile I've seen from any company I've worked at |
| 18:27.20 | Gate | sjansen: I am in a company where we are pushing agile, and for clients that actually care and try to do it that way |
| 18:27.20 | elg | it's getting to the point that pushing weekly is just too big for us. we're trying to get to where we can push more often. |
| 18:27.21 | goozbach | but it's not agile enough yet |
| 18:27.30 | elg | because too big is too hard to test |
| 18:27.57 | sjansen | Agile is a large, complicated topic. Easy to treat like religion. Already filled with hypocrits and heretics. |
| 18:27.58 | goozbach | elg: you also do 'silent' pushes |
| 18:28.02 | goozbach | from what I understand |
| 18:28.12 | elg | silent? |
| 18:28.12 | goozbach | push the code, but dont' turn it on till it's ready |
| 18:28.34 | goozbach | flags and whatnot? |
| 18:28.36 | Gate | sjansen: but with the added bonus that according to the religion, heresy is a good thing ;) |
| 18:28.37 | elg | oh, yes for features that is definitely the case. and turn them up incrementally |
| 18:28.45 | goozbach | config flags that is |
| 18:28.46 | elg | i'm talking about the actual code |
| 18:29.18 | goozbach | from what I watched of that video you posted on facebook anyway |
| 18:29.34 | elg | yeah. runtime flags, not config flags |
| 18:29.59 | elg | think environment variables you can update mid-flight |
| 18:30.27 | sjansen | I recently watched an fascinating interview with a CTO where the company was basically doing hourly updates. |
| 18:31.18 | sjansen | Wish I could remember the company. Really slick. |
| 18:31.36 | Gate | sjansen: that would give any QA person I know a hernia |
| 18:32.07 | sjansen | Fully automated deploy to staging, verification with a comprehensive test suite, staged roll out to production with fine grained monitoring to detect issues quickly. |
| 18:32.28 | elg | awesome |
| 18:33.57 | sjansen | Gate: There's increasing evidence that QA as it has traditionally been practice is a relic of the past. |
| 18:36.24 | elg | amen. we have no traditional QA. developers are on the hook to QA their own changes |
| 18:38.11 | sjansen | There's still a place for people who focus on QA. But they should be helping to build infrastructure, not write checklists. |
| 18:39.39 | sjansen | QA grunt as first step toward developer is also a broken concept. If anything, it should be the reverse. |
| 18:39.41 | goozbach | sjansen: AMEN! |
| 18:39.51 | goozbach | amen again |
| 18:40.05 | goozbach | I'm building infrastructure as a QA guy now |
| 18:40.12 | goozbach | its the most rewarding part of my job |
| 18:40.27 | goozbach | sjansen: flickr does continous integration |
| 18:40.57 | goozbach | a revision control commit triggers a staging build |
| 18:40.58 | sjansen | You know that might have been the company I was thinking of. |
| 18:41.04 | sjansen | Or maybe Zappos... |
| 18:41.15 | goozbach | if all tests pass, then a production build follows |
| 18:41.23 | goozbach | everthing is monitored closely |
| 18:41.30 | goozbach | and they know if things go south quickly |
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| 18:45.16 | clsai | j/clear |
| 18:46.01 | Gate | sjansen: I agree, but there is no substitute for a set of human eyes looking at a deploy. you can eliminate 90% of a QA persons job with unit and automated tests, but there still needs to be a human through it at least once |
| 18:48.18 | Gate | Also, QA is a different skill than software engineering. It never really made sense to me to have one be a lead into another. |
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| 18:49.38 | fugue88 | http://book.personalmba.com/irony-of-automation/ |
| 18:49.43 | fugue88 | http://book.personalmba.com/paradox-of-automation/ |
| 18:53.28 | goozbach | somewhat related: http://www.jrothman.com/blog/mpd/2011/02/technical-debt-do-managers-unintentionally-force-bad-code.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+ManagingProductDevelopment+(Managing+Product+Development) |
| 18:57.07 | Gate | goozbach: goo.gl <= url shortener |
| 18:58.09 | goozbach | meh |
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| 19:01.05 | fugue88 | That doesn't need a url-shortening webapp. It needs some programmers to be re-edge-umu-kated about URLs. |
| 19:01.37 | Gate | yes, you can chop all the parameters, but even then it is a long url |
| 19:02.09 | goozbach | my client shortened it for me |
| 19:02.13 | goozbach | your's didnt? |
| 19:02.23 | Gate | and this text based IM over SSH can make copy-pasting multiple lines a bitch |
| 19:02.26 | Gate | no |
| 19:03.44 | elg | ibot, why don't you shorten urls? |
| 19:03.44 | ibot | why not? |
| 19:03.56 | elg | get with the program, lazy bot. |
| 19:04.09 | Gate | ~shorten www.google.com |
| 19:04.16 | Gate | well, it was worth a try. |
| 19:05.36 | elg | some bots automatically shorten long urls |
| 19:05.54 | elg | so when goozbach posted his überurl, ibot would have potsed the tinyurl equivalent |
| 19:05.57 | elg | automatically |
| 19:06.09 | elg | in direct violation of the victorian "speak when spoken to" rules for bots |
| 19:06.12 | elg | much to my delight |
| 19:06.34 | fugue88 | ibot: pots you some good url |
| 19:06.56 | fugue88 | Maybe ibot was already doing that... |
| 19:07.13 | goozbach | ibot: urls |
| 19:07.45 | mheath_ | hmm, does anyone have any good suggestions on Netbook-friendly Linux distributions, other than Ubuntu Netbook Remix? |
| 19:08.01 | mheath_ | Trying to find something else for my Dell Mini 9 |
| 19:10.43 | jsmith-away | mheath_: Meego? |
| 19:10.54 | jsmith-away | has no clue, as he has not netbook |
| 19:11.06 | mheath_ | jsmith-away, I was not impressed when I tried that last. |
| 19:11.21 | mheath_ | Its like too much of a Proof of Concept, less a complete OS |
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| 19:11.35 | lukfugl | ~botsnack |
| 19:11.35 | ibot | lukfugl: aw, gee |
| 19:11.42 | mheath_ | I would just run Windows XP on there honestly |
| 19:11.49 | lukfugl | hi #utahns |
| 19:11.55 | mheath_ | except it only has an 8 GB SSD |
| 19:12.02 | mheath_ | Which isn't too comfortable for Windows XP |
| 19:12.07 | mheath_ | lukfugl, hello |
| 19:12.17 | lukfugl | who feels like helping me debug an alsa problem? :) #alsa is being pretty quiet |
| 19:13.27 | mheath_ | Wow, I haven't had to debug ALSA problems since OSS was on its way out the door |
| 19:13.29 | mheath_ | whats going on? |
| 19:13.35 | lukfugl | when I try to run alsamixer, I get: "ALSA lib control.c:867:(snd_ctl_open_conf) Cannot open shared library /usr/lib/alsa-lib/libasound_module_ctl_plug.so" |
| 19:13.43 | lukfugl | file just doesn't exist |
| 19:14.07 | mheath_ | did alsamixer work before? |
| 19:14.08 | lukfugl | overarching problem is no sound, following a recent batch of updates... it was working before |
| 19:14.11 | lukfugl | yes |
| 19:14.28 | lukfugl | so I'm thinking an update shuffled things around on me |
| 19:14.29 | mheath_ | I would reinstall your alsa-related packagtes |
| 19:14.42 | lukfugl | maybe I need to update my .asoundrc (it has "type plug" lines) |
| 19:14.46 | lukfugl | but I'm not sure how |
| 19:15.18 | lukfugl | I can also try reinstalling alsa packages, but wasn't sure if there were something else to try first |
| 19:15.36 | mheath_ | I would reinstall / reconfigure the ALSA related packages first, as a first step |
| 19:15.38 | mheath_ | then go from there |
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| 19:17.04 | elg | and/or have someone with an ubuntu box who does have that .so figure out which package it comes from |
| 19:17.14 | elg | dpkg -S I think |
| 19:17.43 | mheath_ | *sigh* I wish Netflix worked on Linux |
| 19:18.48 | fugue88 | Hmm, that file doesn't exist on my Lucid system. |
| 19:18.53 | fugue88 | lukfugl: ^ |
| 19:19.34 | fugue88 | lukfugl: But others there are owned by the libasound-plugins package. |
| 19:20.45 | lukfugl | ok, I have alsa-base, alsa-utils, lib32asound2, libasound2, libasound2-plugins, linux-sound-base, and pulseaudio all marked for reinstallation,. any others you can think of? |
| 19:21.20 | fugue88 | shrugs |
| 19:21.34 | lukfugl | fugue88: yeah, I've got _arcam_av, _bluetooth, _oss, and _pulse there, but no _plug |
| 19:27.14 | elg | its a mystery |
| 19:27.30 | elg | is it 64-bit related? did the clowns just not configure alsa with plug capability? |
| 19:27.49 | elg | or did alsa move that from its own .so into some other? |
| 19:28.00 | elg | try upgrading or reinstalling alsamixer? |
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| 19:50.39 | fugue88 | lukfugl: Can you hear me now? :) |
| 19:51.04 | elg | ~lart lukfugl |
| 19:51.04 | ibot | tries to shut lukfugl up |
| 19:51.12 | elg | can you hear him now? |
| 19:51.17 | fugue88 | haha! |
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| 20:07.31 | eightyeight | heh |
| 20:07.36 | fadein | mheath_: I'm running Arch on my Netbook, and it's working fine. If you don't mind spending a few days making things just so; |
| 20:12.43 | clsai | mheath_: I have a Mini 9 also. I don't run Xubuntu on there but don't use any of the "netbook remix" crap, and it runs fine from a vanilla install. |
| 20:13.03 | clsai | *I run Xubuntu on there |
| 20:15.18 | clsai | Is there any particular reason you're looking to switch to a new distribution, or just looking to mix things up? |
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| 20:38.25 | mheath | clsai, just not happy with what I have running on there currently. |
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| 20:46.37 | sjansen | Clearly you need to replace your netbook with a tablet. |
| 21:08.31 | lukfugl | sorry fugue88/elg... was pulled away from my laptop |
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| 21:11.44 | lukfugl | alsamixer comes from the alsa-utils package, which I've already reinstalled |
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| 21:14.12 | lukfugl | so I moved my .asoundrc out of place, and alsamixer no longer complains about the missing file |
| 21:14.26 | lukfugl | so I'm just not allowed to use "type plug" in my .asoundrc anymore apparently |
| 21:14.31 | lukfugl | I still don't have sound though |
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| 22:47.03 | Gate | ... was that an onjoin? |
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| 22:51.35 | lukfugl | yes |
| 22:53.59 | Gate | jpwhiting: ping :) |
| 23:57.53 | levi | http://www.networkworld.com/community/canonical-alters-banshee-agreement |
| 23:57.58 | levi | This makes me chuckle. |