| 00:00.02 | unum | people wouldn't really have freedom to make choices |
| 00:00.07 | vontrapp | does somebody have a *right* to buy a product at some maximal profit margin? |
| 00:00.14 | vontrapp | s/at/under/ |
| 00:00.29 | unum | vontrapp: it's in the best interest of economy |
| 00:00.40 | TehLaser | competition can have better allocative efficiency than monopoly. |
| 00:00.52 | unum | that's what I'm trying to say |
| 00:00.58 | TehLaser | Thing is, people might, as a whole, be "happier" buying more of the good for a smaller price. |
| 00:01.04 | TehLaser | But the monopoly gets in the way. |
| 00:01.28 | vontrapp | there are lots of things governments can do to make people "happier" |
| 00:01.32 | vontrapp | doesn't make them right |
| 00:01.36 | TehLaser | It maximizes the monopolist's profit at the expense of the contentedness of society as a whole. |
| 00:01.47 | TehLaser | This is usually considered a bad thing. :) |
| 00:01.58 | vontrapp | it's bad that the monopolist makes a lot? |
| 00:02.12 | TehLaser | No, it's bad that people are not maximally satisfied. |
| 00:02.14 | vontrapp | or that people can get the diamonds at all, or at least cheaper than mining them themselves? |
| 00:02.44 | unum | you can't mine them where they're not |
| 00:02.49 | vontrapp | i reject that maximal satisfaction is the ultimate good |
| 00:03.05 | unum | vontrapp: ah, we should have started there |
| 00:03.09 | TehLaser | Doing that throws out essentially all of econ, so... |
| 00:03.12 | vontrapp | unum: exactly, so diamond mines produce diamonds that you otherwise would not have |
| 00:03.12 | unum | what is the ultimate good |
| 00:03.17 | vontrapp | how is that not fair? |
| 00:03.25 | vontrapp | unum: freedom |
| 00:03.39 | vontrapp | voluntary exchange is the ultimate good |
| 00:03.56 | unum | I can't agree with that all |
| 00:04.38 | vontrapp | well why not? freedom means you don't get clubbed over the head in your cave, it means you can work hard and earn your keep, it means you can trade with others to make that easier |
| 00:04.46 | unum | but if that's your premise than everything you argue for follows |
| 00:04.49 | TehLaser | My use of "satisfaction" and "happiness" includes things like "not starving to death". If you prioritize freedom of transaction over that, well, go for it, but you've begged the question. |
| 00:05.13 | vontrapp | i'd rather starve to death than be a fat slave |
| 00:05.19 | vontrapp | but i simply don't think that would happen |
| 00:05.34 | vontrapp | if the american expiriment has shown anything, it's that freedom works |
| 00:05.43 | TehLaser | But are you willing to make (force) that choice on others? |
| 00:05.49 | vontrapp | abundance follows freedom |
| 00:05.56 | vontrapp | hahaha |
| 00:06.00 | vontrapp | what's that supposed to mean? |
| 00:06.23 | vontrapp | i've heard this before, and it really puzzles me, so perhaps you can give me another angle on it to help me understand it |
| 00:06.55 | vontrapp | i reject force |
| 00:07.01 | vontrapp | i would not force anyone |
| 00:07.12 | TehLaser | the point is there is always force. |
| 00:07.13 | vontrapp | but i would reject any attempt of theirs to force others to feed them |
| 00:07.17 | unum | so if I choose to belong to a society that forces others to follow my rules..... |
| 00:07.20 | unum | oh |
| 00:07.51 | TehLaser | choosing not to force your neighbors to feed the poor is choosing to force the poor to suffer. There is no way to avoid force. |
| 00:08.07 | TehLaser | Unless you simply declare certain forms of avoidable force as "natrual consequence" |
| 00:08.23 | vontrapp | not at all |
| 00:08.23 | TehLaser | Which is rather arbitrary, and people tend to disagree about a lot. |
| 00:08.39 | vontrapp | nothing could be less arbitrary than where and how force is used |
| 00:08.58 | vontrapp | the "why" is what can be arbitrary |
| 00:09.24 | vontrapp | hmm, that wasn't very clear |
| 00:09.54 | vontrapp | the distinction between which actions and how they are commited are force is not arbitrary |
| 00:10.25 | vontrapp | it is surprisingly very easy to take *any* action and quickly understand whether it was force |
| 00:10.31 | vontrapp | children can do it |
| 00:10.55 | vontrapp | what is disagreed on is which instances are justified |
| 00:11.23 | vontrapp | my philosophy is that any force that was primal, that was not in responce, in kind, to another force, is not justified |
| 00:11.41 | vontrapp | *response |
| 00:12.33 | TehLaser | I don't see why inaction-leading-to-harm is morally prefered over action-leading-to-harm. |
| 00:12.40 | TehLaser | All else being equal. |
| 00:12.48 | vontrapp | it's not morally preferred |
| 00:13.06 | vontrapp | but inaction-leading-to-harm is morally preferred over force-preventing-that-harm |
| 00:13.21 | vontrapp | if someone wants to prevent the harm, then they can go do so voluntarily |
| 00:13.40 | vontrapp | i try to, i could do more |
| 00:14.03 | vontrapp | but i give freely to the begger, one could debate whether the amount is generous |
| 00:14.30 | TehLaser | Ok, I don't understand that moral judgement either then. |
| 00:14.47 | vontrapp | it is preferred that people voluntarily help the poor |
| 00:15.24 | vontrapp | but once you take away their means to do that, for the very reason of doing it, you've precluded in that very act the opportunity for the same voluntary act |
| 00:16.09 | vontrapp | not to mention you have precluded *other* acts and means that might be even better than the use planned for the forced action |
| 00:16.57 | vontrapp | i could write an essay on the many reasons it is preferred that people help the poor voluntarily |
| 00:17.18 | vontrapp | in fact, it's been simmering on and off for a couple years now |
| 00:17.25 | vontrapp | one day i may actually write it ;) |
| 00:18.09 | *** join/#utah RyanE (Piadas@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 00:18.26 | TehLaser | That's a bit more specific that my puzzlement. |
| 00:18.35 | TehLaser | er, than. |
| 00:19.18 | vontrapp | is that good? |
| 00:19.31 | TehLaser | I don't understand why the "badness" of loss-of-freedom/use-of-force is somehow of a different class than other ordinary badnesses, like death, hunger, suffering, etc. such that the former trumps the latter. |
| 00:20.12 | TehLaser | It seems that there is some level of compulsion that must be an acceptable loss to avoid any particular harm. |
| 00:20.17 | vontrapp | i don't know if it's a different "class" |
| 00:20.28 | vontrapp | no one can argue that it's not bad when a poor person goes hungry |
| 00:20.41 | mheath | Jumping in here on an ongoing debate, but thats ridiculous, TehLaser. You don't acknowledge that basic survival is a different class than philosophical rights? |
| 00:20.55 | vontrapp | TehLaser: but you cannot avoid any harm, it is impossible to make it so there is not any harm |
| 00:21.00 | mheath | You consider my murdering your mother akin to my preventing her from publishing a book freely? |
| 00:21.36 | vontrapp | mheath: i suspect you are being sarcastic? |
| 00:22.14 | mheath | vontrapp, No. TehLaser stated that he considers the "badness" of loss-of-freeom to be in the same class a death and suffering. |
| 00:22.17 | vontrapp | mheath: both those are force, but there is a matter of scale |
| 00:22.20 | TehLaser | mheath: the argument is the other way around. Is it ok for you to use your money to publish your book when my mother will starve unless we take your money by force/tax and use it to feed her. |
| 00:22.45 | vontrapp | maybe that book would inspire people to help the poor |
| 00:22.47 | TehLaser | mheath: it's in the same class, but not of the same value. |
| 00:23.02 | mheath | Oh, we're discussing communism vs free market. Thats what I get for hopping into something mid-conversation |
| 00:23.03 | TehLaser | That is, my mother's life is not worth all the riches of the world. |
| 00:23.05 | mheath | Carry on. |
| 00:23.11 | vontrapp | haha |
| 00:23.57 | vontrapp | mheath: actually i think it's libertarianism vs statism |
| 00:24.15 | vontrapp | but there surely is overlap |
| 00:24.51 | TehLaser | If so, personal freedom cannot be your ultimate good. |
| 00:25.14 | TehLaser | Because, being ultimate, it would require paying any price at all, without limit, to preserve. |
| 00:26.03 | vontrapp | i happen to believe that with freedom comes prosperity and abundance |
| 00:26.38 | vontrapp | plenty to go around, if but we had freedom |
| 00:26.56 | TehLaser | I believe you're confusing end behavior with local trends. |
| 00:28.21 | TehLaser | I believe there is some level of freedom, between zero and absolute, that leads to maximal prosperity. |
| 00:29.58 | vontrapp | well, if you put life as the ultimate good, or the comfort of the poor, then you must stop at nothing until all hunger and needless death is erradicated |
| 00:30.09 | *** part/#utah larrys (~larrys@c-76-27-113-134.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 00:30.43 | vontrapp | so i might agree somewhat on a balance, but it is at least something like 90% freedom, currently i'd rate it at 25%, just ballparkk |
| 00:31.11 | vontrapp | but preventing harm and discomfort cannot be the ultimate good |
| 00:31.27 | vontrapp | not as a justification for force anyway |
| 00:32.21 | vontrapp | it can certainly be the individuals ultimate good, the cooperatives ultimate good |
| 00:32.37 | vontrapp | but it is not the ultimate end of government |
| 00:32.40 | TehLaser | I don't see why it can't work out if you could quantify force itself as a harm and discomfort. |
| 00:32.56 | vontrapp | the ultimate end of government i'm pretty convinced is ought to be protecting rights - protecting against force |
| 00:33.19 | vontrapp | and not initiating it |
| 00:33.34 | *** join/#utah cedwards (~cedwards@174.136.101.179) |
| 00:33.39 | TehLaser | In the end, I'd rather be a fat slave than a dead freeman. And so would many many others. A supermajority of others, I believe. |
| 00:33.57 | vontrapp | and would you force that decision on me? |
| 00:34.23 | TehLaser | I have to either force it on you, or allow you to force it on me. I don't see why you call mine force and excuse your own choice. |
| 00:35.00 | vontrapp | well that's just convenient for you because you've already allowed force as acceptable in your worldview |
| 00:35.08 | TehLaser | Anyway, under my way, you remain free to make yourself dead~ |
| 00:35.33 | TehLaser | vontrapp: it has to be acceptable if it's unavoidable. |
| 00:35.52 | vontrapp | just because something is unavoidable doesn't mean it has to be accepted |
| 00:36.00 | vontrapp | sure, it has to be endured |
| 00:36.08 | vontrapp | but that doesn't mean i sanction it |
| 00:36.49 | fugue88 | vontrapp: He has to force it on you, so that your work will feed him. |
| 00:36.52 | vontrapp | the ambiguity of the word "accepted" is showing through, so i had to use another one |
| 00:37.05 | vontrapp | ;) |
| 00:37.24 | vontrapp | fugue88: and i would *much* rather feed him of my own volition |
| 00:37.51 | vontrapp | freedom requires those in need to make themselves visible and their plight known |
| 00:38.09 | vontrapp | government aid allows them to wallow in their self pity and pretend like there is nothing wrong |
| 00:38.18 | fugue88 | TehLaser: Sorry, an unfair characterisation; I'm just being sarcastic. |
| 00:38.19 | vontrapp | hence, the problem, in a lot of instances, never gets addressed |
| 00:38.38 | *** join/#utah cedwards (~cedwards@unaffiliated/zelut) |
| 00:39.00 | vontrapp | just one of the many reasons in my unwritten essay that voluntary aid is very much preferred |
| 00:43.13 | *** join/#utah cro (~cro@204-228-149-217.ip.xmission.com) |
| 00:43.14 | vontrapp | but... home i go, time for the weekend! |
| 00:53.20 | eightyeight | bill oreilly is an idiot |
| 00:54.44 | eightyeight | there are many reasons why the world at large doesn't take american media seriously |
| 00:54.51 | eightyeight | he's one of those reasons |
| 01:10.40 | *** join/#utah mheath_ (~mheath@174-23-192-143.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 01:21.24 | *** join/#utah mabes (~mabes@runner.fttp.xmission.com) |
| 01:24.51 | *** join/#utah jalbretsen (~jalbretse@c-76-27-51-43.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 01:27.18 | *** join/#utah jalbretsen (~jalbretse@c-76-27-51-43.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 01:40.19 | *** join/#utah dharmatech (~hayduke@166-70-57-177.ip.xmission.com) |
| 02:19.00 | eightyeight | here's his idiocy: http://mediamatters.org/blog/201102040042 |
| 02:19.02 | eightyeight | lovely |
| 02:30.11 | *** join/#utah TuxToaster (~TuxToaste@c-67-186-238-165.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 05:54.22 | *** join/#utah ibot (ibot@rikers.org) |
| 05:54.22 | *** topic/#utah is logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | minecraft multiplayer: plug.org | Look at us! We're so awesome because we know how to user computers. |
| 05:54.22 | *** mode/#utah [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 06:01.26 | *** join/#utah tarrant (~tarrant@216.83.139.130) |
| 06:03.45 | *** join/#utah tarrant_ (~tarrant@69.169.141.202.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net) |
| 06:11.19 | *** join/#utah Woodsdogg (~woodsdog@nat/redhat/x-qwyjdptsqkqyshbv) |
| 06:18.14 | *** join/#utah themiddleman (~rob@c-67-182-247-76.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 06:48.43 | *** join/#utah zzzirk_away (~zzzirk@173-10-29-145-BusName-utah.ut.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 07:36.07 | *** join/#utah har-od (~dshipp@c-71-195-218-161.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 08:28.19 | *** join/#utah har-od (~dshipp@c-71-195-218-161.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 09:58.09 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (timr@bzflag/projectlead/TimRiker) |
| 09:58.09 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 11:45.26 | *** join/#utah jsmith-away (~jsmith@fedora/jsmith) |
| 13:57.53 | *** join/#utah neybar (~jalance@208.88.9.226) |
| 15:43.34 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@cpe-024-211-241-245.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 15:43.50 | *** mode/#utah [+v emcnabb] by ChanServ |
| 16:24.02 | *** join/#utah TuxToaster (~TuxToaste@c-67-186-238-165.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 16:32.30 | *** join/#utah sontek (~sontek@sontek.xen.prgmr.com) |
| 16:38.07 | *** join/#utah dharmatech (~hayduke@166-70-57-177.ip.xmission.com) |
| 17:45.22 | *** join/#utah fadein (~Erik@c-71-199-16-47.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 17:52.48 | *** join/#utah sontek (~sontek@opensuse/member/Sontek) |
| 18:50.42 | *** join/#utah jsmith-away (~jsmith@fedora/jsmith) |
| 19:51.39 | *** join/#utah tarrant (~tarrant@69.169.141.202.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net) |
| 20:11.16 | Migs | RT @jeffjarvis Mubarak fortune is double Egypt's foreign debt: $70b v $32b http://bit.ly/ePKu4w http://bit.ly/fNiB5n |
| 20:16.32 | *** join/#utah RedHat (~RedHat@c-67-182-211-33.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 20:53.05 | *** join/#utah jalbretsen (~jalbretse@c-76-27-51-43.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:09.16 | *** join/#utah rsimpkins (~rsimpkins@callisto.ryansimpkins.com) |
| 21:20.08 | *** join/#utah cbrown (~cbrown@fw.vpxp.com) |
| 21:36.07 | *** join/#utah kingsol (~kingsol@c-24-10-145-67.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:59.04 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (~vontrapp@50.8.106.170) |
| 21:59.04 | ibot | cowers |
| 21:59.04 | TodPunk | Migs: wow, a country with a foreign debt like that is in really good shape! =cP |
| 22:49.09 | *** join/#utah RyanE (Piadas@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 23:06.47 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (~vontrapp@50.8.106.170) |
| 23:06.47 | ibot | cowers |
| 23:37.46 | *** join/#utah Red_Hat (~AL@c-67-182-211-33.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |