| 00:00.03 | eightyeight | Gate: i've lost interest in trying to prove that you can steal ether |
| 00:00.07 | eightyeight | oh well |
| 00:00.12 | JoshH | and what's the practical difference between downloading a song or recording it when it came on the radio? |
| 00:00.30 | vontrapp | JoshH: exactly! |
| 00:00.39 | JoshH | or what if you forgot to set your dvr to record a movie on hbo, so you went and grabbed it from giganews instead? |
| 00:00.42 | sjansen | vontrapp: You're pretending that movies are like lawnmowers. |
| 00:01.01 | vontrapp | sjansen: no YOU are pretending they are the same by equating the whole theft thing |
| 00:01.08 | vontrapp | my point is they are NOT the same |
| 00:01.27 | sjansen | The purpose of lawnmowers is removing grass. The purpose of movies is enjoyment, not just killing time. |
| 00:01.35 | eightyeight | http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110203/03123312936/youtube-notes-that-free-music-with-ads-pays-as-well-if-not-better-than-paid.shtml |
| 00:01.49 | levi | vontrapp: You don't think there's any moral component to copyright? |
| 00:01.54 | vontrapp | if the movie is the same thing as the lawnmower, then you must logically conclude that walmart was "stealing" from homedepot by selling cheaper lawnmowers, or even giving them away for free, heaven forbid! |
| 00:01.59 | vontrapp | levi: i don't |
| 00:02.36 | vontrapp | there is no moral component. |
| 00:03.01 | vontrapp | even hearkening back to its inception, the whole idea was not a moral one, but one of "encouraging the useful arts and sciences" |
| 00:03.07 | eightyeight | http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110202/11271312928/you-would-think-sony-knew-better-than-to-install-rootkit-ps3.shtml |
| 00:03.09 | Gate | eightyeight: I don't see a difference between copying music and photocopying works of art in the Luvre. |
| 00:03.20 | eightyeight | Gate: neither do i |
| 00:03.20 | vontrapp | Gate: or taking pictures |
| 00:03.21 | sjansen | vontrapp: I'm trying to find a way to help you understand how obscene your position is. |
| 00:03.50 | sjansen | If I write a program, I should be able to decide whether to charge for the program, or release it as free software. |
| 00:04.06 | vontrapp | whether or not copyright law was necessary back then to promote useful arts and science is a moot point. |
| 00:04.14 | vontrapp | i do not believe it is at all necessary today |
| 00:04.15 | sjansen | The fact that software is trivial to copy does not mean I should lose the right to require compensation for hours spent creating it. |
| 00:04.26 | Gate | actually, reading back vontrapp is advocating DRM... |
| 00:04.29 | Gate | BURN THE WITCH! |
| 00:04.58 | JoshH | so in my hbo example, would you be stealing the movie? you obviously paid the money to hbo who paid the content providers (or however that works), so should you feel bad if you ended up downloading it instead? |
| 00:04.59 | vontrapp | sjansen: and you are free to put whatever codes and copy protections and agreements into your program that you want to try and create a business model that allows you to realize sales from it |
| 00:05.01 | sjansen | vontrapp: If there's no copyright, there's no GPL. It's that simple. |
| 00:05.16 | vontrapp | if there was no copyright there would not be a NEED for the GPL |
| 00:05.23 | sjansen | Wrong! |
| 00:05.31 | Gate | vontrapp: not true |
| 00:05.43 | vontrapp | Gate: i guess you're right, i didn't think that through |
| 00:05.55 | vontrapp | the idea of the GPL is to force people, by copyright law, to share things for free |
| 00:06.10 | Gate | vontrapp: and to keep the additions to that software free |
| 00:06.16 | vontrapp | i was thinking more along the lines of a creative commons type license |
| 00:06.24 | vontrapp | Gate: exactly |
| 00:06.49 | vontrapp | i am advocating DRM. I am just saying that government has no business enforcing it |
| 00:07.04 | vontrapp | DMCA is wrong |
| 00:07.21 | vontrapp | on that note, and just hear me out here |
| 00:07.23 | Gate | I think DRM is a horrible abuse of the user |
| 00:07.48 | eightyeight | drm doesn't do anything to circumvent piracy, and it only hurts the honest user in the long run |
| 00:07.49 | fugue88 | vontrapp: but but but... bits want to have a negligible marginal cost! |
| 00:07.55 | vontrapp | if I create something, I can sell it to people on the express condition that they DO NOT copy it and give it away |
| 00:08.06 | eightyeight | s/circumvent/prevent/ |
| 00:08.08 | eightyeight | meh |
| 00:08.18 | Gate | vontrapp: contract of sale (EULA) |
| 00:08.30 | vontrapp | the problem here is that when it does get copied, you cannot tell who broke the contract, so you have no way of seeking retribution |
| 00:08.58 | vontrapp | that is where DRM could fill a gap, if you could use it as a tool to prove breach of contract, then you can make that business model work |
| 00:09.02 | Gate | frankly, as both a content creator and a user, I don't give a damn. |
| 00:09.24 | vontrapp | but someone downloading content off some site or some torrent is not breaching any contract because they have made no contract |
| 00:09.28 | Gate | I will NOT punish 99% of my users for the 1% who are pirates. There are ways to fight them without harming honest users. |
| 00:09.51 | vontrapp | Gate: and that is a valid business model, and I would prefer it over DRM |
| 00:09.52 | Gate | vontrapp: actually, I agree, the punishable party there is the one who released the content. |
| 00:10.03 | eightyeight | if anything, piracy is likely bringing more interest, and as a result, more sales, than if the pirates had not existed |
| 00:10.15 | Gate | like the wikileaks thing, Assange isn't the criminal, the army private is. |
| 00:10.17 | vontrapp | but i'm not the one claiming creators have the right to "potential sales" |
| 00:10.48 | fugue88 | Gate: innocent until proven guilty |
| 00:10.52 | eightyeight | Gate: well, if you have the ability to whistleblow, i think it should be your patriotic duty to do so, but, i'll digress |
| 00:10.57 | vontrapp | ~fugue88++ |
| 00:11.09 | JoshH | if your friend can't give you a copy of a CD that she buys, can she play the music to let you listen to it over at her house? should you have to pay for that? where is the line drawn? |
| 00:11.12 | Gate | eightyeight: he's still a criminal. |
| 00:11.27 | Gate | JoshH: its called fair use. |
| 00:11.33 | vontrapp | JoshH: try to put that into a contract, then try to enforce it ;) |
| 00:11.38 | eightyeight | you know what the real pirates are? your eyes and ears |
| 00:11.42 | vontrapp | haha |
| 00:11.44 | Gate | playing it for someone is fair use, copying and redistribution are not. |
| 00:12.00 | vontrapp | gouge them out! a blind, deaf and dumb population is one that complies with copyright law!! |
| 00:12.25 | eightyeight | if someone has a lady gaga ring tone, and you hear it, without paying, you're a pirate |
| 00:12.26 | Gate | vontrapp: what about brail? |
| 00:12.38 | vontrapp | damn, fingers too? |
| 00:12.48 | vontrapp | :( |
| 00:12.48 | fugue88 | What abount quantum entaglement? |
| 00:12.50 | JoshH | the taliban solves the problem by just banning music |
| 00:12.51 | eightyeight | you better pay that royalty fee for attending a concert, or go to jail |
| 00:13.34 | vontrapp | the only thing that defines so-called "fair use" is positive law |
| 00:13.44 | eightyeight | don't forget paying royalties everytime you sing happy birthday at a party |
| 00:13.54 | eightyeight | or you're stealing |
| 00:13.57 | vontrapp | the actual distinction between fair use or not is, again, nothing to do with morality |
| 00:14.06 | JoshH | doesn't the DMCA remove a lot of fair use? if content has DRM, you're not allowed to bypass it in order to exercise your fair use rights? |
| 00:14.15 | fugue88 | I already pay royalties everytime I buy a blank cd or dvd. |
| 00:14.43 | vontrapp | JoshH: and that is exactly the example of laws that are not only illconceived but terribly injust |
| 00:14.50 | JoshH | do you get the "music cdrs"? |
| 00:15.37 | fugue88 | JoshH: no, but all blank casette/vhs/cd/dvd media have a federal tax on them that goes straight to media groups. |
| 00:15.46 | eightyeight | no wonder people like christmas music so much |
| 00:15.51 | eightyeight | i just figured it out |
| 00:15.52 | JoshH | i thought that was only the ones labeled music |
| 00:15.56 | fugue88 | nope |
| 00:16.24 | fugue88 | that's just segmenting a market by product quality & price. |
| 00:16.39 | fugue88 | music are lower quality, higher bitrate error |
| 00:17.06 | eightyeight | remind me to start crying "thief" when people come caroling to my house, or have a christmas program at church |
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| 00:17.28 | vontrapp | i read that you can put a milimeter diameter hole right in the content area of a cd, and error correction can still reconstruct the data |
| 00:17.54 | fugue88 | that'd be a nice experiment to try. |
| 00:18.18 | eightyeight | dunno, but toothpaste will restore the data, or so everyone keeps telling me |
| 00:18.28 | vontrapp | but that's probably assuming the higher quality media without already pervasive bitrate error |
| 00:18.38 | fugue88 | prolly |
| 00:18.39 | eightyeight | apparently, toothpaste has this infinite supply of digital music. who knew? |
| 00:18.48 | vontrapp | eightyeight: just don't use circles! haha |
| 00:19.09 | fugue88 | won't use the spinbrush on his cds |
| 00:19.10 | vontrapp | you don't want to end up with soul coughing |
| 00:19.21 | eightyeight | heh |
| 00:19.36 | eightyeight | it wolud then turn into the blues |
| 00:19.53 | vontrapp | that would instantly increase the value of your lady gaga cd an order of magnitude or two |
| 00:20.05 | vontrapp | and that would be "stealing"! |
| 00:21.44 | vontrapp | at any rate, i personally do prefer to pay for content when possible and not arduos, i go to theaters once in a while, i pay for netflix |
| 00:22.04 | vontrapp | it's my way of thanking the producers for enjoyable stuff, and a way of "voting" if you will for the good stuff over the bad stuff |
| 00:22.04 | eightyeight | i go to theaters for the experience, not to support the creators |
| 00:22.26 | eightyeight | unfortunately, the prices of tickets are rising, and the experience remains the same |
| 00:22.29 | vontrapp | i might be known to go to a movie for no other reason than to say it's much preferable over 99% of what is produced |
| 00:22.31 | eightyeight | so, i go less and less |
| 00:23.01 | vontrapp | eightyeight: yeah, thank goodness for inflation, right? :) |
| 00:23.06 | fugue88 | pays for media, despises drm, but probably agrees that producers have the right to use drm (or try to) |
| 00:23.26 | eightyeight | vontrapp: some theaters are raising the bar |
| 00:23.43 | vontrapp | eightyeight: on content? |
| 00:23.51 | eightyeight | i've been to some theaters where the price of the ticket includes a slice of pizza. and they give you a tray to set it on, along with a drink |
| 00:24.07 | fugue88 | Where's this? |
| 00:24.09 | eightyeight | the chairs have pull out tables to rest everything on, spacious, and recline |
| 00:24.14 | vontrapp | fugue88: yeah, and i have the right to hack, break, and toy with that drm :) |
| 00:24.26 | fugue88 | eightyeight: Your home? :) |
| 00:24.36 | eightyeight | fugue88: salt lake somewhere. i want to say it's a larry h miller theater |
| 00:24.44 | fugue88 | eightyeight: Ah, okay. |
| 00:25.35 | eightyeight | (you pay for the drink, and everything else. only the slice was free, and i think it was cheese only. i can't recall exactly) |
| 00:25.48 | eightyeight | "free" being you paid for it with your ticket, of course |
| 00:25.56 | fugue88 | Right. |
| 00:26.04 | vontrapp | but the tickets are same price as elsewhere? |
| 00:26.25 | eightyeight | i want to say they were $8 or $9 |
| 00:28.44 | JoshH | eightyeight: it must have been a special package deal or something if they gave you free food, i think they do have some kind of bundles like that, especially for families. but i'm not aware of any theaters with comfy chairs and places to set your food in front of you except for brewvies |
| 00:29.16 | vontrapp | when i say i pay for content as a thankyou, that's not the whole story, it really is motivated by a more innate self interest to see more of that content |
| 00:29.41 | eightyeight | JoshH: i'm looking for it. you walked in, and there was a full food court on the left, with the theater on the right |
| 00:29.45 | vontrapp | which, of course, means i'm only going to pay as much as i think it is worth |
| 00:30.13 | JoshH | it wasn't LHM unless it was the gateway or jordan commons |
| 00:30.21 | JoshH | but there are some theaters in SLC that i've never been to |
| 00:30.29 | JoshH | like broadway, trolley square, etc |
| 00:31.41 | eightyeight | JoshH: nope. my bad. it was the megaplex at the solomon center in ogden |
| 00:32.04 | eightyeight | and it appears they're not offering the free pizza slice anymore |
| 00:32.11 | eightyeight | but the food court chairs are still there |
| 00:32.19 | eightyeight | and food trays |
| 00:35.18 | JoshH | confusing slc for ogden... man that's low |
| 00:35.58 | eightyeight | heh |
| 00:36.13 | eightyeight | they do say that ogden is the armpit of utah |
| 00:36.33 | JoshH | well, that's a bit harsh |
| 00:36.45 | JoshH | i'd pick ogden over provo for sure |
| 00:37.01 | JoshH | and magna is technically worse, but since you can get to slc from there easily, it would be better to live in overall |
| 00:40.58 | eightyeight | ogen used to have more bars per square mile than any other city in the state |
| 00:41.28 | eightyeight | add on top of that the saloons of old and the number of strip joints given its size, and it's easy to see why it's name such |
| 00:41.30 | JoshH | i've been to roosters there a couple times, i like that place a lot |
| 00:41.51 | eightyeight | wall ave even had a rough bout durning the '80s and '90s with logts of thugs and gangs at night |
| 00:42.02 | JoshH | but lately, they turned down a law that would have allowed more bars per block, and they are forcing that one pastie club to move to a different zone |
| 00:42.03 | eightyeight | mayor godfrey has been amazing at cleaning the place up though |
| 00:44.46 | JoshH | you fix thugs and gangs by bringing in business and attracting nice bars that keep nice people in town and on the streets at night, not by restricting bars even more |
| 00:44.56 | JoshH | but gangs have changed a lot in the last couple decades anyway |
| 00:45.36 | eightyeight | indeed |
| 00:45.57 | eightyeight | 25th street changed a lot too when they started filming deadwood, or whatever that lame show was |
| 00:46.25 | JoshH | deadwood, if you mean the hbo western, is a fantastic show |
| 00:46.32 | eightyeight | no |
| 00:46.47 | eightyeight | no |
| 00:46.49 | eightyeight | meh |
| 00:46.52 | vontrapp | JoshH: tis counterintuitive. reminds me of the drunk driving thing, by making it against the law to even be *in* your car while drunk causes even more drunk driving |
| 00:46.58 | vontrapp | you can't sleep in the bar, it's closing |
| 00:47.01 | vontrapp | can't sleep on the street |
| 00:47.06 | eightyeight | it was about some kid who moved in with his dad, and they didn't get along |
| 00:47.12 | vontrapp | can't sleep in your car now, cause that'll give you a ticket for sure |
| 00:47.17 | vontrapp | so much better chance to just drive home |
| 00:47.26 | eightyeight | everwood |
| 00:47.37 | eightyeight | deadwood, everwood. same thing |
| 00:47.38 | eightyeight | ã |
| 00:48.47 | eightyeight | anyway, 25th street through 23rd street is the hip place to hang out now, apparently |
| 00:49.20 | JoshH | eightyeight: i've only been there during the day, but there are a few nice looking restaurants there, and roosters of course. and it does have that charming old town feeling |
| 00:50.30 | JoshH | vontrapp: haven't heard about that, but forcing bars to close at 2am (which utah does, as well as a last call at 1am) is theorized to cause more drunk driving, because people can't wait at the bar until they sober up a little more. in most states, bars are open until 3. |
| 00:51.16 | JoshH | but most people don't actually get drunk at bars, unless it's a bar for young immature morons who didn't learn to drink until they got to college and think that things like jello shots and beer bongs are cool |
| 00:51.50 | vontrapp | yeah, unintended consequences, if there was ever anything you could count on... |
| 00:51.53 | vontrapp | lol |
| 00:52.14 | shalkie | Hasn't 25th always been the place? |
| 00:53.06 | eightyeight | shalkie: not when the ogden mall was there |
| 00:53.07 | vontrapp | ugh, i hate waiting for dd to do nothing |
| 00:53.21 | eightyeight | it was littered with bars, strip joints, run down buildings |
| 00:53.36 | vontrapp | eightyeight: i don't get it, wouldn't that make it the place? |
| 00:53.39 | eightyeight | it really didn't get spruced up until everwood started filming, and godfrey took office |
| 00:53.46 | vontrapp | bars and strip joints i mean |
| 00:53.56 | eightyeight | vontrapp: well, i guess for a different crowd. |
| 00:54.01 | vontrapp | ;) |
| 00:56.50 | shalkie | eightyeight: From what I remember around 99/00 the mall itself sucked but the good restaurants and such where on 25th. |
| 00:57.24 | shalkie | sighs wistfully for days gone by. |
| 00:57.45 | eightyeight | well, i'm only speaking from my youth, when i lived in north ogden |
| 00:57.53 | eightyeight | early '90s |
| 00:58.23 | eightyeight | place was a dump, but my impression of the place could be quite different than now, even if it never changed |
| 00:58.32 | shalkie | The town has certainly changed alot downtown. Had to pass through there last week and that section is looking spiffy. |
| 00:58.45 | eightyeight | shalkie: didn't you move up this way? |
| 00:59.07 | eightyeight | i know it's got good eats now though |
| 00:59.20 | shalkie | eightyeight: You mean recently? No. Was looking but life interfered. |
| 00:59.35 | eightyeight | ah. okay. i thought you bought the place |
| 01:00.54 | shalkie | It was a tempting little place. |
| 01:01.29 | shalkie | Life has settled a little, maybe I should reconsider. |
| 01:02.03 | eightyeight | we'll actually be putting our house on the market in a few months, if you're interested |
| 01:02.04 | shalkie | I forgot how much I actually like parts of ogden until last week. |
| 01:08.15 | shalkie | eightyeight: Thanks, I will keep that in mind. |
| 01:08.21 | shalkie | bye |
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| 02:13.32 | unum | just wrote his first android app |
| 02:37.59 | eightyeight | unum: is it in the market? |
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| 03:26.26 | goozbach | is it worth $30/year? |
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| 21:48.50 | sjansen | http://clientsfromhell.net/post/2877823440/the-asshole-lawyer-boyfriend |
| 21:49.56 | sjansen | eightyeight: Can a Web site be stolen? |
| 21:52.45 | vontrapp | um... a store front can be impersonated, if that's what you mean |
| 21:53.11 | vontrapp | but that falls under impersonation, possibly defamation, definitely fraud |
| 21:57.23 | vontrapp | ok, read the link... that is quite simply a question of contractual obligation. The clients defense that "a website isn't real" actually has nothing to do with the contracted time and payment arrangements |
| 21:58.19 | vontrapp | the designer could care less if the website was "still kinda his." He wants payment for his TIME as was contracted for |
| 22:00.23 | vontrapp | it's kindof like somebody buying all the raw materials for tiling a bathroom, and "fooling" somebody to come do the work of installation |
| 22:00.44 | vontrapp | none of the material was "stolen", but that was immaterial, as was the website, double pun fully intended! :) |
| 22:24.10 | sjansen | You really think there's a useful distinction between stealing a Web site and stealing the time required to create a site? |
| 22:24.55 | sjansen | It's stick up the backside thinking like that that leads some to think GNU/Linux is worth forcing on everyone. |
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| 22:27.21 | sjansen | Effectively immediately, you're not allowed to use contractions or pronouns. Clearly they're also too fuzzy for communication. |
| 22:27.26 | vontrapp | no, i think it's the same thing, I think that what you *call* "stealing a website" is actually stealing the time |
| 22:28.35 | sjansen | And so is unauthorized copying of music, movies, books, and tv shows. |
| 22:29.15 | vontrapp | actually, artists and authors contract their time to labels and producers, and do get paid for it |
| 22:29.32 | sjansen | Never heard of a free lancer? Self publishing? |
| 22:29.38 | sontek | except music/movies/etc are distributed, so if 1 person steals it they still can market it to others |
| 22:29.51 | sontek | if a designer spends the time to create a website, they can't sell it to someone else, its lost |
| 22:29.52 | sjansen | Is all the detail to difficult to fit into your sharply defined world view? |
| 22:30.22 | vontrapp | the artist has to find someone who wants to pay for his time, just like anybody else in this world does |
| 22:30.40 | sjansen | And at any rate, what exactly is it about contracted work that makes it okay to steal? |
| 22:31.02 | sjansen | Steal a chair from a carpenter is theft, but stealing it from a furniture store isn't? |
| 22:31.13 | vontrapp | i never said it WAS ok to steal contracted work. obviously the lawer was right and the clientfromhell was clearly wrong |
| 22:31.37 | sjansen | How long do you think furniture stores pay carpenters to make chairs if people keep walking off with them? |
| 22:31.42 | vontrapp | *sigh* |
| 22:32.02 | vontrapp | you're not going to see it my way, and i'm not going to see it your way |
| 22:32.46 | sjansen | I thinking of the children. |
| 22:33.04 | vontrapp | and i'm thinking of kittens |
| 22:33.20 | eightyeight | more of this still? |
| 22:33.25 | eightyeight | /really/? |
| 22:33.28 | eightyeight | wow |
| 22:34.26 | vontrapp | sjansen: your flaw is that you keep drawing parallels between physical things and digital bits |
| 22:34.31 | eightyeight | goes back to watching aljazeera and twitter |
| 22:34.38 | vontrapp | the carpenter has to be paid for his time AND the materials |
| 22:34.42 | sjansen | Because there is no difference. Each take time to mold. |
| 22:34.48 | vontrapp | an artist ONLY gets paid for his time |
| 22:35.29 | vontrapp | once the carpenter makes a chair and parts with it, anybody IS welcome to copy it, to reproduce it, to give it away, to post pictures of it for all to see |
| 22:35.53 | fugue88 | I copyright the likeness of my chairs.... |
| 22:35.57 | fadein | speaking of theft protection, try to right-click->Save Image As here: http://www.vibramfivefingers.it/eng/produtcs.aspx |
| 22:36.08 | vontrapp | this whole notion of owning the ethereal is where the whole mess begins |
| 22:36.10 | fadein | if you have NoScript, you won't get the joke, though... |
| 22:36.58 | vontrapp | haha, that's awesome |
| 22:37.24 | vontrapp | i saw the images though, and they're in my cache! oh noes! i'm stealing! |
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| 23:33.22 | *** topic/#utah is logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | minecraft multiplayer: plug.org | Look at us! We're so awesome because we know how to user computers. |
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| 23:33.37 | unum | and having the authority to push eminient domain so that natural gas piping systems can be established.... |
| 23:34.07 | vontrapp | is gas piping useful? is there a great demand for it? of course there is, so the market would provide it |
| 23:35.02 | fugue88 | Market does provide, in places. |
| 23:35.08 | fugue88 | I live in such a place. |
| 23:35.24 | unum | vontrapp: the market doesn't always provide what is useful or in demand |
| 23:35.31 | unum | look at all the places with out water |
| 23:35.34 | vontrapp | heck, and if it really *was* just too hard to provide gas to everyone, then maybe we would have a plethora of "green homes", isn't that the wet dream of social planners anyway? |
| 23:35.40 | unum | s/water/clean water |
| 23:35.49 | vontrapp | is clean water in demand? |
| 23:35.54 | unum | uh ya |
| 23:36.04 | vontrapp | or do people substitute with bottled water and filters? |
| 23:36.40 | fugue88 | Places that America oppresses want clean water, but can't have it, because our foreign and monetary policies impoverish them. |
| 23:36.44 | vontrapp | economics is greatly a matter of seeing the whole picture |
| 23:36.57 | vontrapp | ~fugue88++ |
| 23:37.16 | fugue88 | Look at the inflation in the Middle East, causing riots even right now. |
| 23:37.17 | vontrapp | if you're talking about foreign countries that want clean water, then first look at if that country has FREEDOM |
| 23:37.27 | vontrapp | if it does not, then perhaps that is the very problem |
| 23:37.31 | fugue88 | That's not *their* money that's causing the inflation, it's USD. |
| 23:37.35 | vontrapp | not whether government has been generous enough yet |
| 23:38.54 | fugue88 | GDP and monetary figures for those countries even for 2009 are pretty revealing: their's isn't the original blame. |
| 23:46.00 | unum | vontrapp: how was the us government preventing clean beef at the turn of last century? |
| 23:46.20 | unum | comsumers had no way of testing to see if the beef was clean |
| 23:46.27 | vontrapp | ha, don't get me started on the FDA |
| 23:46.54 | vontrapp | dig deeper |
| 23:46.57 | unum | I've talked to a lot of libertarians some make more sense than others |
| 23:47.02 | vontrapp | WHY was the beef unclean? |
| 23:47.12 | unum | because it was cheaper to make that way |
| 23:47.18 | unum | which meant higher mark ups |
| 23:47.18 | vontrapp | and WHY was it cheaper? |
| 23:47.59 | vontrapp | might i suggest Food, Inc. |
| 23:48.21 | unum | when I said turn of the century I meant 1900 |
| 23:48.23 | unum | not 2000 |
| 23:48.24 | vontrapp | good movie, but they do push the angle that government can 'fix' it, so you have to look past that |
| 23:48.45 | vontrapp | oh, well, i don't know much about that then |
| 23:48.50 | unum | but how would you as an individual fix it? get out your chemistry set? |
| 23:49.18 | vontrapp | unum: a third party, trusted clearing house of sorts, a certifier, could test it and stamp it with their approval |
| 23:49.25 | fugue88 | Buy from a neighbor. ;) Live next to someone who raises and slaughter beef. |
| 23:49.29 | vontrapp | if they do a good job, then people will want to only buy meat with that seal |
| 23:49.40 | unum | vontrapp: ya, only the goverment is susceptible to corruption |
| 23:49.41 | vontrapp | and then producers will want to get that seal |
| 23:49.49 | vontrapp | and in order to get it, they would have to meet certain standards |
| 23:49.52 | fugue88 | vontrapp: Oooh! That's good. That's how the precious metals markets work. |
| 23:49.55 | unum | but how will people know they do a good job |
| 23:50.07 | vontrapp | trust |
| 23:50.11 | vontrapp | track record |
| 23:50.11 | fugue88 | unum: It takes time, but places *do* earn reputations. |
| 23:50.29 | vontrapp | how do we know the government does a good job? |
| 23:50.29 | unum | but things happen companies change, people die |
| 23:50.48 | fugue88 | unum: That's true. It even happens with our FDA in place. |
| 23:50.52 | vontrapp | ah, now there's a pickle, we don't and worse we don't have ANYTHING else to choose, government is monopolistic |
| 23:50.58 | vontrapp | and has a propoganda machine besides |
| 23:51.00 | unum | vontrapp: the goverment messes up all the time, people die because of it, but private enterprise won't sovle it |
| 23:51.14 | vontrapp | unum: i think they would |
| 23:51.31 | vontrapp | if the government makes a mistake it is rationalized, burried, or whatever |
| 23:51.39 | unum | vontrapp: I've had too much experience with private enterprise to believe that :p |
| 23:51.45 | vontrapp | if an independent certifier makes a mistake, people choose a different one |
| 23:52.55 | vontrapp | it's important to note, too, that in our current framework there are some pretty perverse incentives |
| 23:53.11 | unum | I'm not saying the current system can't be better |
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| 23:53.30 | unum | but private enterprise has a lot of bad incentives |
| 23:53.41 | vontrapp | yes, in the framework |
| 23:53.52 | unum | there's no accountabilty in private enterprise |
| 23:53.59 | vontrapp | and there should be |
| 23:54.13 | unum | just file as an llc, pocket the money and declare bankruptcy for the llc |
| 23:54.35 | unum | if private businesses could actually be held responsible for fraud |
| 23:54.35 | vontrapp | exactly, and i'll be the first to burn all corporate legislation |
| 23:54.45 | unum | I might feel differently about libertarian ideas |
| 23:55.13 | vontrapp | libertarians, at least in my circles, believe very strongly in responsibility |
| 23:55.16 | unum | but with the way it is now we're all "owners" of the companies that do the worst things, but can't do anything about it |
| 23:55.24 | unum | and the ceos are rarely held responsible |
| 23:55.24 | TehLaser | The problem with private certification is humans are bad at dealing with low probabilities. |
| 23:55.38 | vontrapp | TehLaser: what is government? is it not humans? |
| 23:55.46 | TehLaser | Especially with large costs. |
| 23:56.00 | vontrapp | or perhaps i missed your angle |
| 23:56.06 | TehLaser | Humans are the consumers, I mean. |
| 23:56.21 | vontrapp | does government reduce those low probabilities to zero? |
| 23:56.27 | vontrapp | or is it still the same problem? |
| 23:56.35 | unum | my other problem with libertarian ideals is monopolies |
| 23:56.44 | TehLaser | if there's a free market in certification, consumers are too quick to punish them for bad certifications. When the government has a monopoly, this is not a problem. |
| 23:56.48 | vontrapp | or maybe you're arguing that government makes much larger probabilities of failure and keeps people on their toes. ;) |
| 23:56.54 | unum | I don't think they would fail if the government stayed out of it |
| 23:57.09 | unum | once a company is big enough they could do what ever they wanted |
| 23:57.56 | vontrapp | unum: my take, as of late, on monopolies is, if there is a cost to entry, and the monopoly stays under that cost with what it charges, then is that really unfair? |
| 23:58.20 | TehLaser | Also there is the problem that a certifier could "sell" bogus safe certifications for quite a while before getting caught, since the entire point is that getting caught is hard. |
| 23:58.54 | vontrapp | TehLaser: that's a reflection of our current society where everything is the NOW, nobody ever thinks long terms |
| 23:59.07 | unum | vontrapp: explain how that works with diamonds |
| 23:59.09 | vontrapp | and i believe that is largely due to the pervasive inflation |
| 23:59.14 | unum | there's a monopoly on diamonds |
| 23:59.20 | vontrapp | and people buy them |
| 23:59.21 | vontrapp | so what? |
| 23:59.23 | TehLaser | not anymore, actually. |
| 23:59.23 | unum | yet they sell waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay above cost |
| 23:59.36 | unum | TehLaser: they still stay together |
| 23:59.44 | vontrapp | people buy them |
| 23:59.46 | unum | well let's say that monopoly was on something important |