| 00:03.37 | eightyeight | ~lart rhel |
| 00:03.37 | ibot | hits rhel with an anvil and laughs with a contralto voice ... Haha Ha HA Ha |
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| 16:51.35 | vontrapp | is redhat 6 the same thing as redhat 5.6? |
| 16:51.43 | goozbach | vontrapp: no |
| 16:51.57 | vontrapp | k |
| 16:52.03 | goozbach | RHEL6 is a new release of redhat enterprise linux |
| 16:52.16 | goozbach | rhel 5.6 is a patch relase of the 5. series |
| 16:52.28 | goozbach | guarnteed to be ABI compatable all teh way back to 5.0 |
| 16:52.44 | vontrapp | and rhel6 is not beta anymore, right? |
| 16:52.45 | goozbach | rhel6 is only ABI compatable going forward down the 6 line |
| 16:52.50 | goozbach | vontrapp: correct |
| 16:52.54 | goozbach | it's the "latest" |
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| 18:49.31 | TimRiker | thaddeusq: do lunch yet? |
| 19:26.07 | Migs | anyone want a network admin job in Ogden? |
| 19:27.08 | unum | Migs: you quiting? |
| 19:27.12 | Migs | no, my cousin in |
| 19:27.14 | Migs | *is |
| 19:27.31 | unum | I might know someone who would be interesteds |
| 19:27.33 | Migs | let me put up the job posting |
| 19:27.59 | unum | wish I could get them to hire him here.... |
| 19:28.29 | Migs | http://embedit.in/Q7B9Tr6dVJ.swf |
| 19:28.31 | Migs | here you go |
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| 19:46.38 | romanovic | any ideas why ssh suddenly stops accepting my password from a remote machine? |
| 19:46.48 | romanovic | (Ubuntu server 10.10) |
| 19:47.26 | romanovic | still works fine when i'm on the machine and connect to localhost |
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| 19:52.32 | sjansen | ssh -vvv remote.example.com |
| 19:53.25 | sjansen | romanovic: What have you changed recently? That's probably your problem. Or your sshd_config. Or your PAM config. |
| 19:54.14 | romanovic | sjansen: thats the thing - nothing has changed. haven't changed any config files, and haven't rebooted |
| 19:54.51 | romanovic | (well something has changed, i just can't imagine what) |
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| 20:16.51 | eightyeight | ~onjoin cbrown |
| 20:16.51 | ibot | onjoin for cbrown set by goozbach on Fri Jun 1 07:47:26 2007: cbrown goozbach is on to you... you're not fooling anyone! |
| 20:16.59 | eightyeight | ~onjoin -cbrown |
| 20:16.59 | ibot | ok, eightyeight |
| 20:17.28 | cbrown | ty |
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| 20:18.31 | eightyeight | someone told me once, when i had a bot, in this channel even, that bots shouldn't speak unless spoken to |
| 20:18.50 | eightyeight | i've come to agree |
| 20:20.15 | cbrown | And if they slap you with a trout, they should be deleted and their hard drives reformatted. |
| 20:20.37 | eightyeight | heh |
| 20:22.59 | goozbach | I thought I had turned that off |
| 20:23.08 | goozbach | hmm |
| 20:23.19 | vontrapp | goozbach: i remember you turning that off |
| 20:23.26 | goozbach | thankyou |
| 20:23.29 | goozbach | checks the logs |
| 20:24.07 | vontrapp | so, if i have completely lost an lvm lv, but it's just swap and i want lvm to "just forget about it" |
| 20:24.11 | vontrapp | how would i do that? |
| 20:24.39 | vontrapp | lvremove just complains "not found" even with -f |
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| 20:41.58 | Tene | http://www.instructables.com/id/sudo-authentication-via-old-phone-dial-pad/ -- entertaining PAM module |
| 20:59.10 | levi | PAM is fun. |
| 21:05.17 | sjansen | ~fishslap cbrown |
| 21:05.17 | ibot | ACTION slaps cbrown up side the head with a wet fish. |
| 21:05.31 | cbrown | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:06.17 | cbrown | : ) |
| 21:08.09 | sjansen | ~tensai++ |
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| 21:18.54 | eightyeight | https://www.networkworld.com/news/2011/020311-red-hat-defends-microsoft-over-software-patent.html |
| 21:23.49 | sjansen | Will wonders never cease? |
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| 22:33.45 | fadein | hey, does anybody here play with Cygwin very much? |
| 22:34.24 | fadein | I've noticed that it's been going *really* slow lately. I updated a couple of weeks ago, and it's been molasses ever since |
| 22:40.40 | eightyeight | http://dontmakemesteal.com |
| 22:42.01 | eightyeight | http://ui08.gamespot.com/2119/doublefacepalm_2.jpg |
| 22:48.03 | levi | Although I'm definitely sympathetic to the idea, the "Don't Make Me Steal" manifesto kind of makes me cringe. |
| 22:50.22 | sjansen | drags out his soap box and a megaphone |
| 22:50.40 | sjansen | steps onto his soapbox and puts the megaphone to his mouth |
| 22:51.06 | sjansen | Ubuntu's stupid insistence on using release names instead of numbers is a pain in the butt! |
| 22:51.16 | sjansen | steps down from his soap box |
| 22:51.36 | goozbach | pipes in with a "Hear! Hear!" |
| 22:51.39 | sjansen | slides the soap box back into the shadows and padlocks it |
| 22:51.43 | goozbach | lernt summthing new |
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| 22:52.40 | TimRiker | something like iwouldbuyyourmovieifitwaspricedthisway.com might take too long to type. |
| 22:53.13 | goozbach | or makemebuyit.com |
| 22:53.31 | goozbach | maybe makemepay.com is a bit too risqué |
| 22:54.17 | sjansen | Nah, imakemyselffeelbetterbypretendingiwouldpayformedia.com |
| 22:54.20 | levi | It's not just the name, though that's a big part of it. |
| 22:55.19 | goozbach | sjansen I think has hit it upon the head |
| 22:55.36 | levi | That is indeed another big part. |
| 22:55.38 | goozbach | I stopped piriting when I discovered evrything I want to watch is on hulu or netflix |
| 22:56.40 | levi | I downloaded the first episode of this season of V, because they took it off hulu and I couldn't schedule it far enough in advance on my DVR and I missed it. |
| 22:57.51 | levi | Anyway, the manifesto reminds me of a very awkward situation of mine in the 6th grade. |
| 22:59.06 | sjansen | levi: Your retainer fell into the ranch dressing of the Chuckarama salad bar in sixth grade too? |
| 23:00.46 | levi | This girl that I kind of liked gave me a love note. I was totally freaked out and was pretty emotionally immature at the time, so my reply was something to the effect of, "Sure, I'll go out with you if you do X, Y, and Z," which were a list of arguably nice things that I knew she would not actually do. |
| 23:02.18 | levi | Seemed like a clever thing to do at the time, but I felt like a total loser shortly afterward. :P |
| 23:02.29 | eightyeight | the idea that you're stealing something is incorrect |
| 23:02.50 | eightyeight | sjansen: no one cares how bad you hate the ubuntu release names |
| 23:03.01 | levi | eightyeight: Technically incorrect, but a widely accepted metaphor. |
| 23:03.07 | sjansen | eightyeight: Don't make me get out my soap box again. |
| 23:03.26 | levi | They wouldn't be saying "Don't make me steal" if they actually believed they were stealing. |
| 23:04.00 | eightyeight | widely accepted is synonymous with misinformed in this case |
| 23:04.21 | sjansen | levi: Pray tell why not? |
| 23:04.28 | levi | It's not misinformed at all. |
| 23:04.36 | eightyeight | sure it is |
| 23:04.43 | sjansen | It's no different that telling someone "don't make me kick you" just before you kick them. |
| 23:04.47 | eightyeight | somehow, you no longer have the song if someone pirates it |
| 23:05.04 | eightyeight | that's stealing. one time you have it, now you don't. |
| 23:05.12 | levi | Gee, really? |
| 23:05.15 | eightyeight | exept digital media doesn't work that way |
| 23:05.20 | levi | Do you think there's anyone who doesn't understand that? |
| 23:05.22 | eightyeight | so, it's misinformed |
| 23:05.26 | sjansen | That's an awfully convenient and simplistic definition of stealing. |
| 23:05.41 | levi | It's not misinformed, because they know they're not stealing, and the media companies know they're not stealing. |
| 23:05.59 | levi | Everyone knows exactly what specific acts are being referred to. |
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| 23:06.14 | eightyeight | so why are we calling it stealing if it's not stealing? |
| 23:06.23 | eightyeight | sjansen: please, give me a very complicated definition |
| 23:06.27 | levi | Have you ever heard of irony? |
| 23:06.39 | eightyeight | meh |
| 23:07.08 | sjansen | eightyeight: I choose not to respond to you. Instead I'm replying. |
| 23:07.19 | levi | They neither believe that what they are doing is technically theft nor that they are actually being compelled to do it. |
| 23:07.49 | sjansen | Responding would give you what you want. By replying I stay in control. |
| 23:08.07 | sjansen | And if you don't think that's a rebuttal, chew on it longer. |
| 23:08.24 | eightyeight | ok |
| 23:09.44 | vontrapp | i think "the criteria" are a little asinine, restrictive, self-serving, and arbitrary |
| 23:10.00 | levi | vontrapp: Exactly. |
| 23:10.03 | vontrapp | but i agree that the only reason "stealing" happens is because the whole business model is broken |
| 23:10.34 | levi | Like I said, I'm sympathetic to the basic premise, but the whole presentation is terrible. |
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| 23:11.06 | vontrapp | what's stopping somebody from producing content with product placement, with a commitment from the 'advertisers' to pay some small fee per demonstrable view, and then pointing to the 5000 seeders and saying - look! see people like and watch it, now pay up |
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| 23:11.27 | sjansen | economics |
| 23:11.35 | vontrapp | so what |
| 23:11.45 | vontrapp | then we won't have so much tv and movies |
| 23:11.49 | vontrapp | somehow i don't think we would die |
| 23:11.56 | sjansen | A show like friends is easy to sustain with product placement. |
| 23:12.14 | sjansen | Product placement is pretty much anathema to a show like Firefly. |
| 23:12.35 | vontrapp | or jericho |
| 23:12.40 | sjansen | I don't want to live in a world where Friends is the only viable genre. |
| 23:13.01 | vontrapp | but if we can't find a way to fund the shows we want to see, then we'll just have to do without |
| 23:13.11 | vontrapp | and i don't think IP law is a valid way to fund them, especially not DMCA |
| 23:13.20 | sjansen | Ah, but we have found ways to fund the shows we want to see. |
| 23:13.40 | vontrapp | what's that? broadcast television? DRM? |
| 23:13.53 | sjansen | I'm perfectly okay with putting you in prison if it means bringing back Firefly. |
| 23:14.02 | vontrapp | look, if you want to restrict access to your content such that people will pay for it to get it "easier" then more power to you |
| 23:14.11 | vontrapp | but don't come crying to the feds when someone "pirates" it |
| 23:14.20 | eightyeight | if advertisers put the same sort of creative thinking and effort into ads like they do for the superbowl, i might start watching tv again |
| 23:14.53 | sjansen | Look, if someone starts sleeping in your bed when you're not home, don't come crying to the feds. |
| 23:14.56 | vontrapp | netflix is, actually, a prime example of a business model that fits todays market |
| 23:14.59 | levi | eightyeight: And thus you fall into the same pattern as the manifesto. |
| 23:15.19 | vontrapp | sjansen: hardly. that is not a valid comparison |
| 23:15.22 | eightyeight | levi: how so? |
| 23:15.38 | vontrapp | if someone copies my digital bed. I can still sleep in my own pristine copy of it |
| 23:15.46 | sjansen | Sure it is. What crime was committed. You weren't using the bed. It's still there when you get home. |
| 23:15.48 | eightyeight | i don't pirate content, but i also don't watch it |
| 23:16.16 | eightyeight | one, i don't have time. two, it's all lame |
| 23:16.41 | sjansen | And if you're lucky, word will get around and maybe a few people will even pay you for a chance to sleep in your bed while you're at work. |
| 23:16.50 | vontrapp | when you sleep in someones bed you leave behind dirt, skin, disease, and what if I do come home when you're still in it? |
| 23:17.07 | sjansen | vontrapp: irrelevant |
| 23:17.10 | vontrapp | what about privacy? you would necessarily enter my home |
| 23:17.17 | levi | eightyeight: They only *really* care about piracy inasmuch as it reduces their income, or at least can be used to pretend that it's reducing their income. So you not watching is essentially the same as you pirating, as far as they're concerned. |
| 23:17.18 | vontrapp | irrelevent how?? |
| 23:17.38 | vontrapp | levi: haha, true that |
| 23:18.02 | eightyeight | levi: that's a screwed up way at looking at things. so, because i don't purchase trucks, i'm stealing them? |
| 23:18.03 | sjansen | If y'all unauthorized copying get to define unauthorized copying as not stealing, I get to define unauthorized sleeping as not a big deal. |
| 23:18.12 | vontrapp | sjansen: i suppose vandalism is irrelevent then, because the property wasn't "stolen" |
| 23:18.32 | vontrapp | sjansen: you don't need my permission to sleep |
| 23:18.36 | levi | And saying, "I'm going to not watch stuff that I would otherwise watch until you meet my arbitrary demand about what ads you place" is basically the same as the manifesto. |
| 23:18.54 | eightyeight | meh. i'm making no demand |
| 23:19.06 | eightyeight | and i make no promise to start supporting the medium |
| 23:19.14 | eightyeight | i said i *might* start watching |
| 23:19.42 | eightyeight | everything is just to lame. i've got better things to do with my time than waste it in front of bad ads and horrible sitcoms |
| 23:19.55 | levi | I don't see how that makes it any better. At least you didn't put it up on a web page and ask people to sign their names to it, though. |
| 23:20.04 | eightyeight | they're just not doing anything to grab my attention |
| 23:20.09 | tarrant | My sister wants to clone a copy of a homevideo she has on dvd. Any suggestions for windows programs? |
| 23:20.28 | vontrapp | levi: what are you getting at? That eightyeight really *is* bad for not watching TV or are you still being tongue in cheek? |
| 23:20.44 | levi | eightyeight: I think you've decided not to pay attention, and have closed off any avenue that they might reasonably employ to get your attention. |
| 23:21.18 | eightyeight | levi: i watch movies with my wife. |
| 23:21.35 | sjansen | eightyeight: Clearly you haven't seen "Fairly Legal" yet. |
| 23:21.35 | vontrapp | levi: i'm sure eightyeight knows people and talks to them, they could *tell* him if a show (or it's commercials?) was really great |
| 23:21.39 | levi | vontrapp: He's suggesting that he knows better than the media industry how to market their products. |
| 23:21.47 | eightyeight | levi: no i'm not |
| 23:21.57 | vontrapp | levi: he's suggesting that he knows better than the media company what HE WANTS TO WATCH |
| 23:22.00 | sjansen | eightyeight: http://www.hulu.com/fairly-legal |
| 23:22.06 | vontrapp | and he's right |
| 23:22.27 | eightyeight | all i said, is if ads were as good as the ones on the superbowl, then i might pay attention |
| 23:22.40 | eightyeight | i don't know better, and i certainly couldn't do better. it's just not interesting to me |
| 23:22.47 | levi | Yeah, although the form is the same, the fact that it's a single comment and not a web page manifesto does make a significant difference. |
| 23:23.10 | sjansen | tarrant: Bad timing. You've walked into media rules debate and our little teapot doesn't have room for useful discussion. |
| 23:24.06 | Gate | sjansen: does it ever? |
| 23:24.08 | eightyeight | it's the same with mainstream music. i've lost interest in being "fed" what _should_ be popular based on setting up the record by terrestrial radio |
| 23:24.12 | vontrapp | i never have and never will feel bad for copying anything, but i really don't even do that, because like 88 says, it's just not even worth that effort |
| 23:24.28 | eightyeight | i have the capability of knowing whether or not music fits my needs, without the industry filtering it for me |
| 23:24.35 | levi | My thought was that putting superbowl-class ads on all the time was pretty darned unrealistic, though, considering the amount of money it takes to fund them. Just like the manifesto criteria are not terribly realistic when considered all together. |
| 23:24.37 | eightyeight | thus, last.fm has been amazing for me |
| 23:25.11 | eightyeight | levi: did you see the vw ad goozbach posted with darth vader? how much money would you say went into that than your standard car ad? |
| 23:25.23 | vontrapp | am i evil for suggesting that media companies might get my money if they provided me with convenience? content i like? i mean, actual VALUE? what a novel idea |
| 23:25.28 | levi | Yeah, I saw that ad earlier. |
| 23:25.41 | vontrapp | netflix is convenient, terribly so. they get my money because of it |
| 23:25.52 | sjansen | I also enjoy feeling elitist, although using Linux is generally good enough to meet my need. |
| 23:26.15 | eightyeight | the money doesn't need to be spent. it's just the creativity is missing |
| 23:26.16 | Gate | eightyeight: indie artists + amazon mp3 == heaven |
| 23:26.19 | *** join/#utah carmony (~justin@174-23-247-89.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 23:26.29 | levi | vontrapp: No. You also didn't make a web manifesto that said, "You must meet all these details, including specific price points and delivery times, etc., in order for us to to pay for the content you produce that we really do want to watch." |
| 23:26.53 | eightyeight | Gate: i've found a ton of amazing artists that i would have never found listening to terrestrial radio |
| 23:27.03 | vontrapp | levi: but you're jumping allover eightyeight |
| 23:27.13 | eightyeight | and yes, i've bought many records as a result at greywhale |
| 23:27.20 | Gate | eightyeight: terrestrial radio? never heard of it. Web radio or what? |
| 23:27.30 | eightyeight | Gate: fm/am radio |
| 23:27.33 | eightyeight | "over the air" |
| 23:27.39 | levi | vontrapp: He was being dumb initially, and then afterward I was being dumb. |
| 23:27.45 | eightyeight | i believe that's the correct term. if not, let me know |
| 23:28.00 | Gate | eightyeight: meatspace radio. gotcha |
| 23:28.02 | vontrapp | i watch tv shows on my mythtv, i get the shows free over the air |
| 23:28.17 | vontrapp | those shows (and the broadcasting) are paid for through advertisement |
| 23:28.26 | vontrapp | i skip the advertisements automatically with mythtv |
| 23:28.36 | vontrapp | does that make me evil? Am i not 'paying' for my content? |
| 23:28.56 | *** topic/#utah by sjansen -> logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | minecraft multiplayer: plug.org | Look at us! We're so awesome because we know how to user computers. |
| 23:29.03 | vontrapp | getting people to pay for copying digital bits is a business model, just as getting people to watch advertisements along with those bits is a business model |
| 23:29.10 | vontrapp | circumventing either is not morally wrong |
| 23:29.16 | vontrapp | it just shows flaws in the business models |
| 23:29.31 | levi | I'm not really sure who you're arguing with, vontrapp. |
| 23:29.32 | eightyeight | agreed |
| 23:29.47 | vontrapp | just making a point |
| 23:30.11 | sjansen | Taking candy from a gas station is not morally wrong, it just shows a flaw in the business model. |
| 23:30.28 | vontrapp | do you literally not see a difference, sjansen? |
| 23:30.31 | sjansen | Clearly gas stations should be equipped with death rays if they don't want their candy stolen. |
| 23:30.33 | Gate | glad i'm not the only one who saw that analogy... |
| 23:30.53 | vontrapp | Gate: which analogy? |
| 23:31.02 | TimRiker | works on setting up #ldstech for projects from http://tech.lds.org/ etc. feel free to join there. :) |
| 23:31.05 | Gate | the physical/digital theft one |
| 23:31.06 | sjansen | Do you really not see a problem with taking product of someone's labor and demanding your receive it for free just because it's technically possible? |
| 23:31.13 | sjansen | How very un-Rand of you. |
| 23:31.15 | vontrapp | it's a flawed analogy |
| 23:31.24 | vontrapp | physical theft leaves the victim with less physical stuff |
| 23:31.31 | levi | vontrapp: Regardless of whether you think they are good or not, copyright laws *do* exist, and you violate them when you make unauthorized copies of things. |
| 23:31.47 | levi | Whether you want to feel guilty about that or not is your business. |
| 23:31.49 | Gate | vontrapp: what about photocopying an author's book rather than buying it? |
| 23:31.52 | vontrapp | sjansen: i'm not demanding anything, i just don't feel bad if i happen to be able to get it for free |
| 23:31.57 | eightyeight | i believe the copyright laws are currently unjust laws |
| 23:32.12 | eightyeight | i also believe in honoring, obeying and sustaining the law |
| 23:32.17 | sjansen | Saying that taking something is not morally wrong is the same as demanding the right to do it. |
| 23:32.20 | Gate | Simply because someone has produced something which is easy to copy doesn't mean that they shouldn't or can't charge for it |
| 23:32.28 | vontrapp | Gate: no problem there either, if the book store lets you look at the book and take it into the copy room without paying for it |
| 23:32.29 | sjansen | I should be able to copy any TV show I want because I can. |
| 23:32.39 | sjansen | It's not morally wrong to copy and TV show I want because I can. |
| 23:32.39 | TimRiker | vontrapp: no difference here. If steal the bits from your direct-deposit check and place it in my account, would you still feel the same? |
| 23:32.56 | Gate | vontrapp: I can walk into barnes and noble with a camera and copy every book there, if I want to take the time. |
| 23:33.14 | vontrapp | Gate: not if barnes and noble asks you to leave |
| 23:33.40 | vontrapp | TimRiker: that's not the same |
| 23:33.41 | TimRiker | you should be able to copy any TV broadcast that's sent unencrypted over the air to your house. but someone could argue you'd be legally required to watch all the commercials at least once. |
| 23:33.43 | Gate | OK, so by extension, you are saying that they should watch your computer and cut off the content if they think you are stealing? |
| 23:33.51 | eightyeight | i'm failing to understand how blocking ads is stealing candy |
| 23:34.08 | vontrapp | sjansen: i *am* able to copy a tv show because I can, and no amount of legal positivism will change that fact |
| 23:34.17 | eightyeight | even if i don't block the ads, the content is _still_ free |
| 23:34.20 | Gate | eightyeight: I am arguing that bypassing paywalls, not against dodging ads |
| 23:34.45 | sjansen | And I *am* able to break into your house and raid the fridge. No amount of legal positivism will change that fact. |
| 23:34.48 | eightyeight | i thought vontrapp was arguing circumventing advertisements |
| 23:34.48 | vontrapp | the question isn't about demands, it's about morals, and i don't see a moral problem with copying |
| 23:34.57 | vontrapp | unless law defines morality |
| 23:35.02 | vontrapp | which i reject outright |
| 23:35.10 | Gate | vontrapp: I agree with you there |
| 23:35.18 | vontrapp | law can and does at time reflect morality |
| 23:35.26 | vontrapp | but not always |
| 23:35.33 | sjansen | Like I said, I'm really surprised that you have no problem taking the product of someone's labor without their permission. |
| 23:35.34 | Gate | I would say extremely rarely |
| 23:35.36 | levi | According to vontrapp, apparently, you may only exert property rights over physical things. Non-corporeal goods cannot be owned and should be able to be freely copied and distributed. |
| 23:35.50 | vontrapp | sjansen: they don't have to make their labor available to me |
| 23:35.57 | sjansen | It flies in the face of just about everything you've seemed to stand for. |
| 23:35.59 | Gate | Law reflets the panic, passion, lunacy or corruptness of the people who write them, not morality |
| 23:36.00 | eightyeight | levi: i agree to some extent |
| 23:36.07 | vontrapp | if they don't want it copied, then don't create it, or keep it locked up in their basement |
| 23:36.35 | sjansen | Money isn't a physical thing anymore. Why is vontrapp opposed to taxes? |
| 23:36.50 | Gate | vontrapp: I have to disagree: those who create the works own them and deserve to be able to benefit from their work. |
| 23:37.02 | vontrapp | taxes force me to *do* something, nobody is forcing anybody to create movies, big difference |
| 23:37.19 | vontrapp | Gate: only if they device a business model by which they can do so |
| 23:37.40 | eightyeight | levi: if i have a physical book, i believe i should be entitled to a digital copy of the same edition. and i don't understand why i should be punished for putting that digital copy on multiple computers that i own |
| 23:37.41 | levi | They don't force you to do anything but shuffle bits around on some computers. |
| 23:37.42 | Gate | vontrapp: but your argument would eliminate all forms of digital transmission. |
| 23:37.50 | vontrapp | would it? |
| 23:37.59 | sjansen | vontrapp: That's a horrible metric. |
| 23:38.01 | Gate | Your saying that in order to make money an artist would have to sell physical copies |
| 23:38.09 | vontrapp | if it does, then maybe we'll all do more productive things besides sitting in front of a moving picture |
| 23:38.28 | sjansen | Nothing "forces" me to refrain from punching strangers and running away quickly. |
| 23:38.31 | vontrapp | netflix doesn't sell physical copies and they make money |
| 23:38.35 | eightyeight | there's more to making money than just selling physical copies |
| 23:38.55 | vontrapp | sjansen: you are way misunderstanding my words somehow |
| 23:39.00 | eightyeight | techdirt has clearly demonstrated that there's a gold mine in scarce goods |
| 23:39.01 | Gate | vontrapp: but you are arguing that their security should be bypassed and the content copied for free, which would destroy netflix |
| 23:39.08 | sjansen | Do we really want to live in a world where the only possible reality is that which can be achieved without community action? |
| 23:39.19 | vontrapp | Gate: i'm not saying it should be, i'm saying that it can't be enforced by law |
| 23:39.41 | sjansen | As a community, we long ago discovered that placing certain restrictions on people made life better for everyone. |
| 23:39.43 | vontrapp | it can be enforced by sheer power of technology, if they can device the DRM scheme that makes it so only those who pay can possibly see it, then more power to them |
| 23:39.50 | levi | sjansen: Libertarians love community action, it just has to be completely voluntary. |
| 23:39.55 | Gate | Then they have no recourse, they may as well be living in an anarchist society where they can shoot theives on sight. |
| 23:40.01 | sjansen | One of those restrictions we found to be beneficial was the copyright. |
| 23:40.08 | vontrapp | sjansen: now creating movies and tv shows is "community action" |
| 23:40.16 | sjansen | To argue otherwise is to ignore the positive proof of history. |
| 23:40.19 | vontrapp | am i going to be taxed for that now, because they can't make money off of them? |
| 23:40.29 | sjansen | Punishing free loaders is community action. |
| 23:40.59 | JoshH | i think people need to stop confusing copyright infringement with theft, but it's pretty hard to argue seriously that infringing copyrights (by pirating content, etc) is not morally wrong |
| 23:41.11 | sjansen | Before copyright, there was much less incentive to create books. Sure, they were written, but not in the same variety as after the establishment of copyright. |
| 23:41.21 | levi | vontrapp: We'll tax you because you hate taxes to much. |
| 23:41.24 | vontrapp | how does copying digital bits come anywhere close to physical damage to a persons body!?!?! |
| 23:41.25 | eightyeight | JoshH: that's my initial stance |
| 23:41.36 | JoshH | there are cases though where copyright infringement certainly isn't that bad |
| 23:41.47 | JoshH | playing old rom games on emulators, for example |
| 23:42.04 | vontrapp | sjansen: conveniently for that argument, copyright came about the same time as the printing press |
| 23:42.05 | sjansen | You can be sure that Charles Dickens never would have picked up a pen if he hadn't been sure of a financial reward. A lot of people feel Dickens made their life more interesting, even if I think he was a windbag. |
| 23:42.07 | Gate | JoshH: I consider abandonware a completely seperate issue |
| 23:42.14 | JoshH | it's a copyright issue |
| 23:42.17 | vontrapp | i tend to think it's the printing press that got more books written |
| 23:42.20 | vontrapp | not copyright law |
| 23:42.21 | JoshH | just like seeding a lady gaga album |
| 23:42.46 | Gate | JoshH: well, that is a crime against nature... |
| 23:42.53 | JoshH | true |
| 23:42.59 | JoshH | god should smite anyone where they stand for that |
| 23:43.23 | levi | You guys hate Lady Gaga that much, eh? |
| 23:43.28 | eightyeight | JoshH: i thought you didn't believe in god |
| 23:43.38 | JoshH | but things like modding your ps3 aren't morally wrong either, just technically wrong, i guess |
| 23:43.43 | vontrapp | give me an argument that says copying something is wrong that doesn't stem from copyright law |
| 23:43.43 | JoshH | eightyeight: it was a joke |
| 23:43.47 | eightyeight | ah |
| 23:43.55 | tarrant | Personally I don't see piracy as a moral issue. I purchase goods not for the sake of morality but because by doing so I provide the creators the ability to live. |
| 23:44.05 | eightyeight | i guess i was expecting something more along the lines of qi or karma |
| 23:44.08 | sjansen | levi: Lady Gaga is popular, therefore complaining about her is a guarantee of increased esteem among geeks. |
| 23:44.09 | levi | eightyeight: You're really having issues with interpreting language in any not-absolutely-literal fashion today, aren't you? |
| 23:44.20 | JoshH | eightyeight: karma can bite people, but not smite them |
| 23:44.24 | Gate | Modding your PS3 irks me, as does jailbreaking iPhones. You bought the hardware you should be able to do whatever the hell you want with it. |
| 23:44.39 | JoshH | Gate, agreed |
| 23:44.40 | eightyeight | levi: meh |
| 23:44.59 | JoshH | copyright is one area where the gray area is enormous |
| 23:45.17 | vontrapp | about modding and jailbreaking, Gate i agree, *but* the providers should be free to cut off your service if you do something they didn't want you to do that was in the contract |
| 23:45.22 | levi | Copyright does indeed have huge gray areas. |
| 23:45.25 | JoshH | but in any case, getting a copy of a digital product isn't stealing, since you're not actually taking away something from anyone, causing them to no longer have it |
| 23:45.28 | eightyeight | many of the laws are unjust. dr. king explained how the public should treat unjust laws |
| 23:45.33 | vontrapp | i think it's a terrible business practice that will eventually put them out of business, but that is their right |
| 23:45.35 | levi | vontrapp doesn't deal well with gray areas. |
| 23:46.19 | vontrapp | levi: i just don't *see* grey areas ;) |
| 23:46.33 | Gate | vontrapp: that's the "provider" not the goddamned manufacturer |
| 23:46.48 | levi | vontrapp: I kind of got that impression. :) |
| 23:46.50 | vontrapp | what does the manufacturer do to prevent modding? |
| 23:47.03 | vontrapp | levi: really though, i do see *some* grey |
| 23:47.04 | vontrapp | sometimes |
| 23:47.13 | Gate | vontrapp: several manufacturers have install kill switches to brick devices you alter |
| 23:47.26 | sjansen | It shouldn't be surprising that binary thinking is attractive to idiots and computer programmers. |
| 23:47.34 | Gate | they destroy your purchased hardware because you did something they didn't like with it |
| 23:47.47 | vontrapp | Gate: yeah, that's low, and could probably be grounds for a fraud claim or something |
| 23:47.51 | levi | The world is a lot easier to deal with when you don't try to classify absolutely everything in a binary scale. |
| 23:48.13 | Gate | sjansen: the truth is a three-edged sword. |
| 23:48.48 | Gate | s/truth/understanding/ |
| 23:48.53 | sjansen | Gate: Shows what you know. The truth is a war hammer. It must be used to pummel one's opponents. |
| 23:49.14 | vontrapp | Gate: but then... that is kindof a grey area (levi, don't faint!) because you don't want to go holding manufacturers accountable for every time someone cracks open their device and it breaks |
| 23:49.38 | Gate | vontrapp: that isn't what I am talking about. I am speaking specifically of remote kill switches |
| 23:49.47 | Gate | They send a command and brick your phone. |
| 23:50.23 | eightyeight | did the law just show that was illegal with apple? |
| 23:50.43 | sjansen | eightyeight, vontrapp: Do you agree it is possible to "steal time"? |
| 23:50.44 | eightyeight | users can legally jailbreak their iphones, and apple can't do a damned thing about it |
| 23:50.49 | vontrapp | Gate: unless that's in a contract it is absolutely wrong |
| 23:51.12 | Gate | vontrapp: even if it is in the contract its wrong. Legal, but wrong. |
| 23:51.13 | vontrapp | sjansen: yeah, i'm probably doing it right now... i should get back to work |
| 23:51.40 | sjansen | Okay, so right there we agree that it is possible to steal something other than physical objects. |
| 23:51.50 | Gate | i'm not slacking off, my code is compiling. |
| 23:51.58 | vontrapp | Gate: that depends on your definition of wrong. it's bad, it alienates customers, it is despicable and unkind |
| 23:52.18 | vontrapp | but it is not an actionable offence, that is, if contractual, it does not warrant government intervention |
| 23:52.39 | Gate | vontrapp: as stated, wrong and illegal are not synonymous. |
| 23:52.45 | vontrapp | sjansen: time cannot be copied |
| 23:52.56 | Gate | vontrapp: give us time... oh wait... |
| 23:52.58 | sjansen | So here's why unauthorized copying is stealing: you're removing a potential sale. Whereas before you made the copy, there was a possibility of agreeing on a price, after you grab the copy and run off you've unilaterally eliminated any chance of agreement. |
| 23:53.09 | vontrapp | if i steal the time, time that someone paid for, then i've committed fraud and/or breach of contract |
| 23:53.41 | vontrapp | Gate: indeed, but it would be wrong for government TO intervene |
| 23:53.46 | vontrapp | if that makes sense |
| 23:54.17 | vontrapp | sjansen: what makes a potential sale something that can be taken? |
| 23:54.31 | sjansen | vontrapp: What makes time something that can be taken? |
| 23:54.43 | vontrapp | i just told you, it was contracted for |
| 23:54.45 | vontrapp | and cannot be copied |
| 23:54.48 | vontrapp | how do you not see that? |
| 23:55.07 | eightyeight | here's something to change the topic: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/9386445.stm |
| 23:55.29 | eightyeight | "cyber weapons", "cyber war", "cyber proposal" |
| 23:55.35 | vontrapp | if i could crap out a clone like that smallville guy, and do two things at once, where one of me worked, would my other part be "stealing time" by not working for the company? |
| 23:55.39 | eightyeight | there's more "cyber" in that article than i can count |
| 23:56.36 | eightyeight | 28 references |
| 23:57.18 | sjansen | vontrapp: Sales also can't be copied. |
| 23:57.22 | vontrapp | if i can be liable for a company losing a potential sale, then what about every single product i have ever not bought? especially those ones that i was close to buying? |
| 23:57.40 | Gate | eightyeight: nice try. |
| 23:57.47 | sjansen | The opportunity to sell a copy to Alice is not the same as the opportunity to sell to Bob. |
| 23:57.57 | Gate | but a conversation like this one simply has to burn itself out. |
| 23:58.10 | JoshH | sjansen: i think that can be the case if you knew you were going to buy somethign then found out that there was a torrent or something |
| 23:58.30 | JoshH | but i don't think you can say there's always a possiblity of agreeing on a price |
| 23:58.59 | vontrapp | JoshH: but then what if i was going to buy a lawnmower from HomeDepot, but then found out there was one for half the price at walmart? did i "steal" that sale from homedepot? did walmart "steal" the sale? |
| 23:59.20 | JoshH | i think of it like this |
| 23:59.38 | vontrapp | digital copying is a purely economic problem, morality has nothing to do with it, and law should have nothing to do with it (but sadly does) |
| 23:59.40 | JoshH | say someone buys a cd, then makes a copy of it for whatever reason, then gives you that copy |
| 23:59.43 | JoshH | did you steal it? |
