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| 15:44.23 | ibot | cowers |
| 15:45.03 | vontrapp | hey photography folks, I'm really really thinking about getting a *nice* camera for the family for christmas |
| 15:45.08 | vontrapp | two kids now, so many moments to capture |
| 15:45.48 | vontrapp | was looking at the rebel or the nikon equivalent, the older models (T1) to save some dough |
| 15:46.15 | vontrapp | but looking for any advice before I buy, I know there are some avid hobbyists here |
| 15:46.48 | vontrapp | also, what is the deal with 3fps listed on the boxes? what does that mean? It can't be the video capture frame rate... |
| 15:49.07 | vontrapp | one thing on the T1, actual video frame rate is 20fps for one of the resolutions, can't remember which (1080p?) but the other is a full 30fps. I certainly wouldn't mind doing video at 720p to get the better frame rate |
| 15:50.25 | larrys1 | fps is how many frames it can shoot in burst mode |
| 15:51.10 | larrys | I recommend looking at dpreview.com for the cameras you want to get, it has all kinds of info and reviews there |
| 15:52.14 | vontrapp | things that are important to me are manual and automatic focus, zoom, and good iso for those darn moving kids |
| 15:53.22 | larrys | I like a good burst rate, since it's good for getting action shots... |
| 15:53.37 | vontrapp | would you consider 3fps a good burst rate? |
| 15:53.51 | larrys | depends on how long it can sustain it... |
| 15:54.06 | larrys | since some will slow down, after the buffer is full |
| 15:54.27 | vontrapp | what I would like is a good (3fps i think would be fine) "semi-automatic" burst |
| 15:54.46 | vontrapp | as long as you can keep pressing that button, it will keep taking pictures ;) |
| 15:55.15 | larrys | On my 1st gen rebel, it will slow down after 4ish pictures (depends on if its raw or what level of jpg) |
| 15:55.36 | vontrapp | actually, for that, 3fps might be too slow, cause if you push it too fast you it might simply not take the pic if it wasn't ready for it |
| 15:55.47 | larrys | For comparison, the 60D will do 5.3 FPS, while the 7D will do 8fps |
| 15:56.36 | larrys | (60d will do that for 58 jpgs, or 16 raw, while the 7D will do taht for 126 jpgs, or 15 raw) (also depending on type of memory too |
| 15:56.53 | vontrapp | in fact, i think i would almost always prefer 'semi-auto' burst rather than a something where it just takes burst frames at a specified rate |
| 15:57.36 | vontrapp | but... that won't be a deal killer |
| 15:58.15 | larrys | also remember you are buying into a lens family. I chose canon, but others prefer nikon |
| 15:58.48 | larrys | since you can easily spend more on glass then the body itself. |
| 15:58.52 | vontrapp | hmm yes, my bro has some lenses... |
| 16:01.09 | larrys | One tip for canon lenses, is spell it cannon on ebay, some people don't bid too high on misspellings ;) |
| 16:02.02 | vontrapp | would you stick with those two then, nikon or canon? |
| 16:02.20 | vontrapp | olympus, panasonic, sony? |
| 16:02.43 | larrys | I would only stick with canon, myself, since I already have one, but if I were to switch, it would be nikon⦠|
| 16:03.10 | larrys | also, look at events where you see photographers, and you will notice mostly those⦠(the white bodies and red rings of the L line of lenses from canon should be a clue too in some cases) ;) |
| 16:03.43 | Jayce | vontrapp: we have the t1i and love it.. |
| 16:03.53 | Jayce | what are you specifically using it for? |
| 16:04.02 | Jayce | sports, general, low light? |
| 16:04.29 | vontrapp | indoors (low light) wiggly kids |
| 16:04.54 | vontrapp | that'll be the majority, but i'm sure we'll take sports pics eventually, and playing at the park, sledding, etc |
| 16:05.09 | vontrapp | Jayce: where's you hat? |
| 16:05.53 | Jayce | dunno, home connection must have reset |
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| 16:06.14 | larrys | for low light you want a good lense, (or flash, and please bounce it off the celling to avoid washing out the picture) |
| 16:06.30 | Jayce | unless you *really* need high performance, the t1 is a great camera.. and you can use the nicer glass etc with great results.. |
| 16:06.38 | larrys | the onboard flashes are almost worthless |
| 16:06.55 | vontrapp | i know a little about flash (always laugh at the flashes popping all over in large stadiums) but hadn't heard that cieling trick |
| 16:06.56 | Jayce | if you finally get to the point that you really need features from say a 7d or something, you can just switch the body out and keep the other stuff.. |
| 16:07.00 | Jayce | or keep a spare :) |
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| 16:07.25 | Jayce | vontrapp: you should look into the photowalking/photocamp groups (and similar like utah strobists and smug) |
| 16:07.42 | Jayce | Think LUG's for photographers |
| 16:08.24 | larrys | vontrapp: I have http://www.amazon.com/Canon-Speedlite-580EX-Digital-Cameras/dp/B0002XQWCK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1292256471&sr=8-1 for my flash, you want a good multi-directional one, so you can move it, or offset it |
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| 16:08.45 | vontrapp | so, Jayce... are you replacing your t1i with, say a 7d or something? ;) |
| 16:09.23 | larrys | I'm looking at replacing my old 1st gen rebel, just need to save up the money, my hotshoe doesn't work well anymore, and to change lenses I have to use my fingernail on the release button. |
| 16:09.40 | vontrapp | hotshoe? |
| 16:09.47 | larrys | the thing the flash connects too |
| 16:09.53 | vontrapp | ah, gotit |
| 16:10.43 | larrys | but I have a few nice lenses, like a 70-200mm L quality lens (not the IS version though), and a decent 50mm prime with a 1.4 fstop |
| 16:11.55 | vontrapp | well i am interested in any good deals on used stuff |
| 16:12.24 | larrys | I'd keep my 1st gen rebel as a backup, and due to its issues would not sell for too much |
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| 16:19.55 | vontrapp | what about the xsi 450D, how much of a downgrade would that be? worth saving a couple hundred for? |
| 16:20.02 | vontrapp | 12mp vs 15mp |
| 16:20.28 | vontrapp | resolution is not the biggest factor for me at this point, speed and picture quality are far more important |
| 16:20.45 | vontrapp | and control (manual focus as well as auto) |
| 16:21.22 | tensai | 12mp vs 15mp is essentially meaningless |
| 16:21.40 | larrys | sensor size is important too, since some are a aps size frame (1.6 multiplier) so a 100mm lens is in effect a 160mm lens, great for telephoto, but sucks for wide angle. |
| 16:22.03 | tensai | http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/08/technology/08pogue.html http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/02/15/deconstructing-the-megapixel-myth/ |
| 16:23.58 | vontrapp | tensai: hence why i said speed and quality are issues for me :) |
| 16:24.21 | vontrapp | resolution is an important factor, if it's important to you (making giant prints, for example) |
| 16:24.33 | vontrapp | but only after picture quality is established |
| 16:26.26 | tensai | I found the pogue article enlightening as to *why* megapixels are a red herring |
| 16:28.47 | vontrapp | in fact (re one point in the article) I was considering deliberately going with lower megapixel to save storage space and be able to take more pictures |
| 16:29.24 | vontrapp | and concurrently save money, of course :) |
| 16:30.13 | mrpull | vontrapp: the Canon G11 is a real world example of dropping the megapixel count to get better picture quality |
| 16:30.57 | mrpull | the G10 was a 15(ish) megapixels and the G11 is 10 Megapixels |
| 16:31.43 | mrpull | bit it isn't necessarily an example of saving money at about $500 |
| 16:32.33 | mrpull | the Nikon D7000 is on my current wishlist |
| 16:32.38 | mrpull | and the Canon S95 |
| 16:39.06 | vontrapp | I would even go as low as 7 or 8 mp if I can be convinced it is a really nice quality camera that will take amazing clear shots |
| 16:39.27 | vontrapp | and can take lenses and such, i'm not interested in a pocket camera |
| 16:40.15 | vontrapp | na, even 5mp would be fine by me |
| 16:40.21 | mrpull | it's hard to buy a really bad camera these days |
| 16:41.17 | mrpull | pick a system (canon, nikon, sony, etc) buy a cheap body with a quality lens (that can later be used on a better body) and get on the upgrade treadmill. |
| 16:41.58 | vontrapp | ok, so 5mp, action shots and low light, directional flash, lenses, manual focus... go |
| 16:43.26 | mrpull | if low light is important, look at the more recent bodies... even if they have more megapixels than you want/need |
| 16:43.56 | larrys | you should really look at dpreview.com, it will show sample shots in various conditions too... |
| 16:43.59 | mrpull | dpreview.com is a good site for detailed reviews |
| 16:44.04 | vontrapp | well, i'm not talking extreme low light or anything, we do have a nice 150wat indirect halogen lamp in our living room |
| 16:44.31 | mrpull | for indoors i usually like to use an external flash |
| 16:44.34 | vontrapp | still causes problems with my android phone, but any nice camera i think would handle that light |
| 16:44.36 | mrpull | even with decent light |
| 16:45.54 | mrpull | it can be a good exercise to set a budget and back into the gear |
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| 16:46.47 | mrpull | say... $2000 == mid-level body, 18-200mm, off camera flash |
| 16:48.28 | mrpull | plus, budget some money for a decent bag |
| 16:50.06 | vontrapp | i'd probably get the zoom lens later, a standard close-range lense would suit me in the meantime if it is considerably cheaper |
| 16:50.45 | vontrapp | if that's not going to save me a lot of money though... |
| 16:52.01 | mrpull | at the low end they'll often pack in an 18-55mm and a 55-200 with the "kit" |
| 16:52.26 | mrpull | i'd suggest spending a little more and buying the body and lens separately |
| 16:52.58 | vontrapp | see, now what does mid-level and low end mean? is it just referring to MP mainly (which I already said I don't care about) or are there other camera features that will suffer? |
| 16:53.10 | vontrapp | sensor size? |
| 16:53.18 | vontrapp | manual shutter/focus? |
| 16:53.45 | mrpull | in the nikon world, the sensor size in the non-pro SLR line is pretty much the same |
| 16:53.49 | vontrapp | manual focus is one thing i really want, if you can't tell |
| 16:54.04 | mrpull | you'll get manual focus on any modern SLR |
| 16:54.17 | mrpull | well... probably any you could buy |
| 16:54.42 | mrpull | autofocus does get more sophisticated in the more expensive bodies |
| 16:55.15 | vontrapp | another thing is i would want it to last at least a couple years |
| 16:55.35 | vontrapp | i might upgrade before then, but... |
| 16:56.06 | mrpull | are you thinking a $500 kit or a $2500 kit... you started by saying *nice*, but *nice* means different things to different people |
| 16:57.08 | vontrapp | well, i tried to give lots of info about what nice meant to me, way more like $500 though, maybe $800 depending on what's in the kit |
| 16:57.46 | vontrapp | shape is important, too, something that handles nicely, like I said not a pocket camera |
| 16:57.54 | mrpull | in the nikon world consider the D3100 kit |
| 17:00.56 | mrpull | i was flipflopping on whether to choose nikon or canon and I decided i liked the way the nikon felt in my hands more than the canon |
| 17:01.25 | mrpull | also consider if you have friends family with the same brand so you can borrow their glass or buy their handmedowns |
| 17:01.37 | vontrapp | yeah, i need to go heft some, preferably with different lenses on, too |
| 17:02.08 | mrpull | it might be wise to drop by Pictureline in draper or SLC |
| 17:02.14 | mrpull | they are good folks |
| 17:02.29 | mrpull | they'll answer your questions honestly and let you touch the gear |
| 17:02.58 | unum | that was a very informative article |
| 17:03.08 | mrpull | the big box stores are much less knowledgeable and likely wont let you hold different body / lens combos |
| 17:03.33 | vontrapp | mrpull: thanks, i'll check htem out |
| 17:03.39 | larrys | plus the best buy drones swarm you even if you so you do not need help... |
| 17:04.03 | larrys | I need to get a tshirt "No thanks, I don't need your help" for stores like that... |
| 17:08.43 | Jayce | vontrapp: no, not selling, but if you want a "good" intro SLR, the t1 is great, the t2 is a bit nicer |
| 17:13.40 | vontrapp | you know what i really hate is when they put photoshop crap into the camera. that's what photoshop is for duh! keep the camera simple, stupid |
| 17:16.43 | mrpull | the in-camera effects are usually only in the lower end stuff |
| 17:17.15 | mrpull | i suppose it appeals to a different audience |
| 17:17.54 | mrpull | but that reminds me... you may want to verify that whatever software you intend to process the photos with supports your brand's flavor of RAW file |
| 17:25.19 | vontrapp | big fan of GIMP here |
| 17:27.28 | mrpull | i understand that GIMP has plugins (and maybe some native support) for the common RAW formats. |
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| 18:05.18 | Jayce | vontrapp, mrpull http://blog.worldlabel.com/2010/photography-with-open-source-linux.html |
| 18:05.48 | Jayce | good tools for working in RAW on linux |
| 18:06.55 | mrpull | Darktable looks interesting. I bought Lightroom. It's the best tool i've found. |
| 18:06.59 | mrpull | (for my needs) |
| 18:07.19 | Jayce | yeah, lightroom is great, but was very impressed how far along those tools are |
| 18:07.28 | Jayce | especially if you want to run on linux |
| 18:32.13 | vontrapp | ~links |
| 18:32.13 | ibot | Lynx-like text WWW browser. URL: http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~mikulas/links/ |
| 18:32.25 | vontrapp | ~urls |
| 18:32.33 | vontrapp | ~shoot ibot |
| 18:32.33 | ibot | ACTION shoots ibot in the foot with a cork gun! |
| 18:55.15 | Gate | ~elinks |
| 18:55.15 | ibot | Elinks is a text-based web browser. URL: http://www.killefiz.de/zaurus/showdetail.php?app=292 |
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| 19:40.36 | sjansen | http://idle.slashdot.org/story/10/12/13/1631231/4chan-Declares-War-On-Snow |
| 19:42.35 | eightyeight | shakes his head |
| 19:49.55 | lahwran | ROFL |
| 19:57.12 | sjansen | If DDoS could snow away, I'd have the world largest collection of zombie servers. |
| 20:00.46 | Migs | it IS from a joke site, btw |
| 20:03.43 | sjansen | Migs: Whatevz. U r jealous. |
| 20:05.56 | eightyeight | nuh uh |
| 20:06.17 | goozbach | can someone explain how 'perl >= 5.00503' doesn't pass when 'This is perl, v5.10.1'? |
| 20:06.40 | goozbach | oh and in other news, RT3 is still a dependancy nightmare BTW |
| 20:06.51 | goozbach | I thought epel6 had it all taken care of. |
| 20:07.02 | goozbach | I've built ten or so rpms thus far |
| 20:08.10 | sjansen | goozbach: Turn back. That way lies maddness. |
| 20:08.37 | goozbach | sjansen: I can't |
| 20:08.53 | goozbach | once RT is installed support and bug tracking is nirvanna |
| 20:09.14 | sjansen | I'm just saying don't build RPMs. Just use CPAN. |
| 20:09.30 | sjansen | I know a tiny part of you will die inside. |
| 20:09.47 | goozbach | sjansen: I can't |
| 20:09.48 | sjansen | Better to let it die quietly than torture it first. |
| 20:09.58 | goozbach | I need to make it re-installable for others |
| 20:10.05 | goozbach | I'm ok with a cpan-based distro |
| 20:10.10 | goozbach | but I want this repeatable |
| 20:34.00 | vontrapp | goozbach: .00503 == five hundred and three > "five point ten" |
| 20:34.24 | vontrapp | i just recently read a disclaimer to such in rpm version madness |
| 20:35.31 | vontrapp | in short, "503" > "10", leading zeros mean nothing, in fact, .503 would be greater than .59 |
| 20:37.32 | goozbach | there's supposed to be some perl magic which parses 5.00503 an 5.10... the same |
| 20:38.09 | vontrapp | oh this is not an RPM version check? |
| 20:39.14 | goozbach | nah |
| 20:39.25 | goozbach | it's a perl requires check inside of cpan2rpm |
| 20:39.31 | goozbach | I'm suspecting a bug |
| 20:39.43 | goozbach | cpan2rpm hasn't been maintained very well over the years |
| 20:40.05 | goozbach | not really a peep from the original author since well before perl 5.10 |
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| 20:44.16 | vontrapp | maybe the rpm part is still showing it's ugliness |
| 20:45.32 | goozbach | it's before the specfile is written so I doubt it |
| 20:45.59 | goozbach | cause once I built it with no-test, it installed as an rpm just fine |
| 20:46.06 | goozbach | even with the same depends line |
| 20:53.38 | sjansen | goozbach: Don't use cpan2rpm, use cpanspec. |
| 20:53.53 | goozbach | cpanspec@?! |
| 20:53.56 | goozbach | hmmm |
| 20:55.34 | sjansen | Also very handy: http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/ |
| 20:56.05 | sjansen | If Fedora already has the module packaged, crib from the Fedora spec file. |
| 20:56.24 | goozbach | I've been setting up my own Pulp server |
| 20:56.39 | goozbach | soon I'll be feeding Pulp with my own Koji buildserver |
| 20:57.54 | sjansen | I hope you're not trying to build RT for RHEL5. |
| 20:58.11 | sjansen | There's a couple of RT dependencies that are _brutal_ to build on RHEL5. |
| 20:58.44 | sjansen | Our RT server is effectively unmaintained because I refuse to ever touch it again. |
| 20:58.44 | goozbach | not rhel5 no |
| 20:58.47 | goozbach | :) |
| 20:58.56 | mrpull | it's crazy that RT is still such a PITA to install |
| 20:59.06 | mrpull | it was 10 years ago and still is today |
| 20:59.08 | mrpull | wtf |
| 20:59.10 | goozbach | Rhel 6 on the other hand... |
| 20:59.27 | goozbach | mrpull: I got all excited when I saw it in epel6. |
| 20:59.41 | goozbach | now I'm obligated to install it if it takes all day! |
| 21:00.08 | sjansen | epel6 is ready?! |
| 21:00.30 | goozbach | sjansen: aparently not |
| 21:00.32 | goozbach | :) |
| 21:00.32 | sjansen | Oh, still beta. |
| 21:00.36 | mrpull | sjansen: i've had a couple RT servers with a "never touch this" rule |
| 21:01.13 | goozbach | I'm thinking I'll just punt, and do a base install of RHEL and do all the deps with CPAN and install RT3 from source |
| 21:01.26 | goozbach | bestpractical isn't very practile |
| 21:01.29 | goozbach | wow |
| 21:01.34 | goozbach | my brani is fried |
| 21:01.41 | mrpull | i think the last time i touched RT i got an exception to run it on debian |
| 21:02.05 | mrpull | rhel / centos was the accepted standard, but debian got a pass since it had good packages for RT |
| 21:02.29 | goozbach | it's pretty sad |
| 21:13.37 | goozbach | yeah I'm punting |
| 21:13.51 | goozbach | ran: make fixdeps from the RT3 makefile |
| 21:14.12 | goozbach | I just want to see if I can get RT working instead of bugzilla |
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| 22:36.08 | sjansen | Hey, crap for crap, maybe you should consider something other than RT and Bugzilla. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_issue-tracking_systems |
| 22:37.10 | sjansen | Avoid GNATS. |
| 22:37.19 | sjansen | Redmine ain't much better than Tracs. |
| 22:37.57 | sjansen | Not a fan of flyspray. |
| 22:38.12 | sjansen | Roundup isn't much to write home about, but it doesn't completely suck. |
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| 22:48.32 | vontrapp | what about flypaper? |
| 22:48.45 | vontrapp | roundup is for weeds |
| 22:48.57 | vontrapp | feature creep? |
| 22:49.27 | vontrapp | http://www.threadless.com/product/2464/Traditional_Greeting/tab,guys/style,zipup |
| 22:49.31 | goozbach | sjansen: there are two requrements |
| 22:49.55 | goozbach | looks good (I know totally subjective, but the powers that be want something we can show to the Board) |
| 22:50.06 | goozbach | and integrates with VersionONE |
| 22:50.22 | goozbach | bugzilla does out of the box (on the windows version, older version of bugzilla) |
| 22:50.32 | goozbach | but operating with bugzilla over email is a pain |
| 22:50.44 | goozbach | I want the ease of use that RT gives you with email |
| 22:51.09 | goozbach | and I know enough perl and RT (and I've written an RT plugin before) to integrate with V1 |