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| 10:25.42 | shrug0202 | How does one steal cable? |
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| 12:58.30 | shrug0202 | anyone else an insomniac? |
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| 14:03.30 | eightyeight | shrug0202: steal cable? |
| 14:03.46 | eightyeight | shrug0202: as in cable internet, or some other cable entirely? |
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| 14:15.19 | *** topic/#utah by tensai -> logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | UTOSC 2010 Registration now open - http://attend.utosc.com - use promo code OPEN for 50% off full access pass |
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| 14:26.38 | Gate | He probably means TV |
| 14:31.47 | goozbach | shrug0202: aught to find another venue to discus such things |
| 14:32.59 | Gate | one where his IP isn't tracable. |
| 14:33.14 | Gate | or at least isn't in cleartext for all to see |
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| 16:18.04 | levi | You steal cable the same way you steal anything else. You unhook it from what it's connected to, with wire cutters if necessary, and take it away with you while avoiding detection. ;) |
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| 16:21.21 | levi | If you steal enough of it, you could probably get a decent price for it as scrap copper. |
| 16:22.04 | tensai | might want to learn the difference between fiber and copper before you begin |
| 16:22.24 | levi | Yeah, the scrap value of fiber is probably not significant enough to bother. |
| 16:33.29 | unum | though if the copper wire is being used for electrical purposes you may want to put on rubber gloves first |
| 16:33.40 | unum | probably won't help, but you may want to try anyways |
| 16:33.59 | unum | it seems a couple of people get fried a year stealing copper |
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| 16:51.57 | elg | wow, itunes is getting its ugly on |
| 17:01.40 | levi | Heh. |
| 17:02.07 | levi | iTunes has always been the vanguard of Apple's flouting of its own HIG. |
| 17:02.38 | elg | yeah. but this is gratuitous ugly |
| 17:02.50 | elg | they changed the perfectly nice icon to this ugly monstrosity |
| 17:02.59 | elg | and turned the corner buttons on their side. wtf |
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| 18:01.01 | levi | elg: iTunes has always been a WTF-fest, UI-wise. I don't even notice anymore. |
| 18:01.15 | levi | I haven't run it in OS X lately, though. |
| 18:02.26 | levi | So, it turns out that getting a Win XP CD image onto a bootable flash drive is not as trivial as I had hoped it would be. |
| 18:03.07 | levi | After screwing around for hours in Linux with various tools there, I finally resorted to a demo version of a commercial Windows app to do it. |
| 18:03.26 | levi | After a free Windows app that was supposed to do it failed. |
| 18:35.11 | levi | git is way cool. |
| 18:35.55 | levi | All our code is in a central Perforce repository, but I had to manage a bunch of local changes for a while until I could get someone to make a dev branch for me in Perforce. |
| 18:37.10 | levi | Anyway, I had to do a bunch of experimentation, so now I've got a bunch of task-specific local branches, but I've got history of all the changes and what they do and why they were made so I can merge precisely the right stuff into the upstream P4 server dev branch. |
| 18:39.38 | goozbach | and I just got looked at like I was speaking in martian when I suggested putting the product docs into a mecurial repository |
| 18:39.51 | levi | Heh. |
| 18:42.38 | goozbach | so what did I do? |
| 18:42.55 | goozbach | just copied his sourcecode directory and imported into my own hg repo |
| 18:43.06 | goozbach | he'll get diffs from me |
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| 19:16.11 | Gate | goozbach: ancient north martian? |
| 19:16.19 | Gate | </drWhoReference> |
| 19:21.02 | harleypig | http://goo.gl/8Xz3 |
| 19:24.29 | harleypig | http://goo.gl/ts0W |
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| 20:17.50 | eightyeight | b:11c:2a0:ccff:fe3e:ed9f [Read error: No route to host] |
| 20:17.55 | eightyeight | meh |
| 20:18.04 | eightyeight | http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ST/hash/statement.html |
| 20:18.05 | Gate | ..? |
| 20:18.25 | eightyeight | (not sure how that got into my clipboard) |
| 20:19.43 | eightyeight | "NIST encourages a rapid adoption of the SHA-2 hash functions for digital signatures, and, in any event, Federal agencies must stop relying on digital signatures that are generated using SHA-1 by the end of 2010." |
| 20:20.26 | Gate | The End is Near (of SHA-1) |
| 20:23.32 | fugue88 | whoa |
| 20:23.53 | fugue88 | I guess I need to migrate off of MD5s... ;) |
| 20:26.01 | fugue88 | Oh, I had heard of that research previously. |
| 20:33.14 | eightyeight | yeah. it's nothing new |
| 20:33.21 | eightyeight | just that the end of 2010 is upon us |
| 20:33.53 | eightyeight | while a recommendation for the federal fovernment, it should also apply to us |
| 20:35.32 | fugue88 | So, you know how MD5 is subject to pretext attacks? If you run MD5 against a file's reverse, that means a break would require a post-text attack. If you take 2 MD5s, forward & reverse, the weakness is now exploitable by only a combined pre-text & post-text attack. |
| 20:35.52 | fugue88 | I wonder if doing something similar makes differential attacks more difficult. |
| 20:40.37 | eightyeight | interesting |
| 20:40.49 | eightyeight | s/fovernment/government/ |
| 20:40.52 | eightyeight | heh. just noticed that. ã |
| 21:02.00 | tensai | tsu? oh, I get it. it looks like a smiley. |
| 21:05.29 | unum | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing |
| 21:05.34 | unum | I had forgotten about them |
| 21:09.13 | eightyeight | tensai: a smiley that occupies one byte instead of two |
| 21:10.51 | fugue88 | eightyeight: One byte, eh? In what encoding? |
| 21:10.54 | levi | eightyeight: I'm curious how you'd fit that in one byte. |
| 21:11.07 | levi | One character != one byte anymore. |
| 21:11.34 | fugue88 | ⺠|
| 21:11.36 | levi | It's *sometimes* one byte in UTF8, but usually only when overlapping with ASCII encoding. |
| 21:11.44 | fugue88 | One character, three bytes when encoded as utf8. |
| 21:12.07 | levi | I mean in general, not for that specific character. |
| 21:12.43 | tensai | levi: maybe he's got really big bytes |
| 21:12.46 | fugue88 | levi: You mean utf8 isn't non-deterministic? |
| 21:12.58 | fugue88 | I'm in favor of a 10-bit byte, myself. |
| 21:13.21 | fugue88 | is shocked at utf8's determinism |
| 21:13.55 | levi | There's nothing preventing a byte from being other than 8 bites, aside from convention and compatibility. |
| 21:14.02 | levi | Er, 8 bits, not bites. |
| 21:14.05 | eightyeight | i thought utf-8 was a single byte |
| 21:14.16 | eightyeight | that's what you get for thinking |
| 21:14.24 | fugue88 | Yeah, stop that!@ |
| 21:14.24 | levi | eightyeight: ASCII characters in utf-8 are single bytes. |
| 21:14.34 | eightyeight | yeah |
| 21:15.00 | eightyeight | btw- what's the difference between 'utf-8' and 'utf8', if any? |
| 21:15.08 | eightyeight | i've seen both in locales |
| 21:15.14 | fugue88 | None, the way we're using it right now. |
| 21:15.27 | fugue88 | But maybe, officially, there's a diff. Or maybe just aliases for the same. |
| 21:15.58 | fugue88 | I seem to remember some differences in 8859-1 locales, depending on hyphenation. |
| 21:16.16 | levi | eightyeight: If you could figure out a reversible way to map thousands of characters into a single-octet-per-character encoding.... |
| 21:16.27 | fugue88 | I have some land to sell you. |
| 21:17.08 | fugue88 | btw, I'm still working on the decompressor for my lossless compressor. |
| 21:17.29 | fugue88 | Excellent ratios (everything compresses to a single bit), but the 2nd half of this project has proved troublesome. |
| 21:20.23 | eightyeight | levi: i'm on it. just as soon as i finish my proof that n = np |
| 21:21.48 | fugue88 | That's set to eclipse any P=NP fluff. |
| 21:22.20 | eightyeight | meh |
| 21:22.32 | eightyeight | s/n /p / |
| 21:22.37 | eightyeight | i'm having a hard day apparently |
| 21:23.08 | eightyeight | i told my math professor today that 2 <= 0. made perfect sense in my mind at the time |
| 21:23.20 | eightyeight | until i realized < is less than, and not greater than. ã |
| 21:29.30 | levi | Maybe you need more sleep. :) |
| 21:29.39 | Gate | 2+2=5 for very large values of 2 |
| 21:29.54 | fugue88 | Or if you're an engineer. |
| 21:29.59 | fugue88 | Or accountant. |
| 21:30.05 | fugue88 | Or climatologist. |
| 21:30.07 | Gate | Or Obama. |
| 21:30.19 | fugue88 | 2+2 (plus change) = 5 |
| 21:30.24 | fugue88 | I believe in change. |
| 21:30.32 | fugue88 | :) |
| 21:31.00 | Gate | I'll keep my guns, house and money. You can keep the change. |
| 21:31.10 | fugue88 | haha! |
| 21:31.22 | unum | I've seen that bumper sticker before |
| 21:31.29 | unum | I'll take the health insuraunce! |
| 21:31.34 | unum | you can keep your guns |
| 21:31.39 | Gate | There are variants, many replace house with religion. |
| 21:31.59 | unum | you can keep your religion to, I don't want it either |
| 21:32.32 | Gate | Good, one more like me and we might achieve acceptance in the mainstream ;) |
| 21:33.40 | Gate | unum: I note you didn't say anything about me keeping my money. |
| 21:33.43 | Gate | communist. |
| 21:33.44 | JoshH | one more what? |
| 21:33.47 | unum | yep |
| 21:34.07 | unum | did you know most people thinking taxes are higher now than two years ago, not lower? |
| 21:34.08 | JoshH | well obama did actually lower my taxes, so i'm happy about that |
| 21:34.12 | JoshH | even if it was only a little |
| 21:34.34 | fugue88 | JoshH: Obama did, or legislators and regulators did? |
| 21:34.43 | Gate | unum: My family and I are looking at a gigantic tax hike in January. |
| 21:34.49 | levi | Some combination of the above, I'm sure. |
| 21:35.00 | unum | Gate: how big? |
| 21:35.05 | unum | percentage wise |
| 21:35.21 | Gate | estimates are running wild, so I won't bother to quote numbers I don't believe. |
| 21:35.25 | unum | actually what percentage higher will YOUR tax rate be then it is now? |
| 21:35.33 | unum | but you said "big" |
| 21:35.50 | unum | which means you're paraphrasing numbers you don't believe |
| 21:35.57 | Gate | Yep, pretty much. |
| 21:36.02 | Gate | Its all more vague that way |
| 21:36.15 | unum | talking about a bill that apparantly doesn't even exist |
| 21:43.07 | Gate | unum: they are raising the tax brackets and the capital gains tax, to name a few. Last time I did some reading I can reasonably expect to pay 3 times the taxes this year than I did last. |
| 21:43.23 | unum | bill number? |
| 21:43.44 | Gate | Of course, a significant portion of that is due to a deduction I won't be getting and a higher income. adjusted for those, I still have a nasty bite coming. |
| 21:45.13 | unum | if you qualify for the capital gains tax you'll have to excuse my lack of empathy |
| 21:45.32 | unum | it might actually affect me now, but I still don't care |
| 21:45.37 | unum | easy come easy go |
| 21:46.29 | JoshH | guns and lower taxes, at least for the rich, seem like valid reasons to support republicans |
| 21:46.31 | Gate | I see. Anyone who makes more than you deserves a tax hike, is that it? |
| 21:46.43 | JoshH | but it's not like obama is going to take the guns away, and isn't the capital gains tax just a rollback? |
| 21:47.02 | unum | JoshH: yes it is, which is why there's no bill number :) |
| 21:47.08 | unum | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Growth_and_Tax_Relief_Reconciliation_Act_of_2001 |
| 21:47.16 | JoshH | lowering taxes on teh rich only while increasing spending so much hasn't helped america one bit, and there aren't any easy targets for spending cuts that everyone agrees with |
| 21:47.18 | unum | tax wealth not work work |
| 21:47.19 | eightyeight | Gate: no, no, no. 2+2=6 for very large values of 2. 2+2=5 for medium-sized values of 2 |
| 21:47.48 | JoshH | everyone says either cut military spending or cut entitlement spending, but either one will cost votes |
| 21:47.48 | unum | my wife get's mailed a check every year for money she had nothing to do with earning, it bothers me a lot less to see that taxed then the money I spend time earning |
| 21:48.21 | JoshH | unum: it's like taxing game show winnings |
| 21:48.27 | Gate | unum: so the money I take out of my paycheck and invest took no work? |
| 21:48.38 | JoshH | nobody cares when someone only brings home half of their total from wheel of fortune |
| 21:48.43 | unum | Gate: the interest from it, not so much |
| 21:48.54 | unum | you don't pay capital gains on the principle |
| 21:51.22 | unum | hmmmm according to wikipedia capital gains will be the same as your regular tax bracket |
| 21:51.44 | unum | well long term will be lower |
| 21:55.22 | shrug0202 | they should just repeal all taxes, give the economy, and people, a fighting chance to actually live without constant molestation by men with guns |
| 21:56.01 | shrug0202 | make all taxes voluntary and actually make our votes count |
| 21:56.13 | eightyeight | so, back to private roads? |
| 21:56.17 | Gate | I vote for a 10% flat tax. |
| 21:56.19 | shrug0202 | turn off the digital money printing press |
| 21:56.24 | Gate | FLAT tax. on all income. period. |
| 21:56.48 | shrug0202 | yes private roads but not necessarily... taxes could be collected for roads but they must be voluntary |
| 21:57.02 | shrug0202 | no force necessary |
| 21:57.14 | eightyeight | you can kiss the interstate, and most highways goodbye |
| 21:57.20 | shrug0202 | if peope want goodroads, they'll pay up |
| 21:57.21 | goozbach | I'm a fan of the Fair Tax |
| 21:57.22 | unum | I think a flat tax may actually be better for the poor |
| 21:57.24 | eightyeight | people aren't going to pay taxes voluntarily |
| 21:57.28 | unum | they get screwed |
| 21:57.34 | goozbach | send me my prebate! |
| 21:57.44 | *** part/#utah redbeard_work (~jphall@fw.oremut02.us.wh.verio.net) |
| 21:57.46 | goozbach | then let *ME* decide if spending money is worth it |
| 21:57.49 | shrug0202 | people will only voluntarily pay taxes for things they actually car about |
| 21:57.58 | shrug0202 | care |
| 21:58.01 | unum | let me direct my money where I want :) |
| 21:58.10 | shrug0202 | exactly unum |
| 21:58.17 | shrug0202 | no force necessary |
| 21:58.37 | unum | well I meant take my taxes just let me mark where it goes |
| 21:58.45 | shrug0202 | let the market, individuals in other words, decide where their resources are best spent |
| 21:58.48 | unum | I don't believe libertarianism can work |
| 21:58.50 | eightyeight | people are too lazy to give away their money |
| 21:59.04 | eightyeight | too greedy as well |
| 21:59.10 | shrug0202 | I don't think it's laziness |
| 21:59.15 | shrug0202 | it's a desire to actually live |
| 21:59.26 | eightyeight | you can live without freeways |
| 21:59.27 | shrug0202 | when taxes are taken from your check |
| 21:59.34 | eightyeight | you can live without libraries |
| 21:59.36 | shrug0202 | they're not taking just "money" |
| 21:59.40 | eightyeight | police, fire dept, etc |
| 21:59.44 | shrug0202 | they are taking "time" from your life |
| 21:59.58 | shrug0202 | if you're taxed at 50 percent for your whole life |
| 22:00.13 | shrug0202 | then that means you work half your life for the sake of your government |
| 22:00.23 | unum | shrug0202: our government |
| 22:00.24 | shrug0202 | it's your time and energy being stolen |
| 22:00.26 | unum | us |
| 22:00.29 | shrug0202 | not just mone |
| 22:00.31 | shrug0202 | money |
| 22:01.02 | eightyeight | shrug0202: i'm saying that if taxes were voluntary, we'd find excuses why we don't need things, and the country would go to pot |
| 22:01.06 | shrug0202 | well I never consented to this type of government, it's not "my" government |
| 22:01.36 | shrug0202 | nah, those who cared would pay |
| 22:01.42 | eightyeight | but it wouldn't be enough |
| 22:01.46 | shrug0202 | those who didn't or couldn't afford to wouldn't be feces |
| 22:01.48 | shrug0202 | forced |
| 22:01.51 | shrug0202 | lol not feces |
| 22:01.58 | shrug0202 | well ten too bad |
| 22:02.20 | eightyeight | heh |
| 22:02.26 | shrug0202 | nobody has a right to shove a gun in someone's face and demand anything |
| 22:02.32 | unum | so we would all have to suffer because my neighbor decided not to pay his taxes? |
| 22:02.35 | eightyeight | no one has shoved a gun in my face |
| 22:02.36 | shrug0202 | government employee or not |
| 22:02.42 | shrug0202 | no |
| 22:02.45 | fugue88 | unum: False dichotomy. |
| 22:03.02 | shrug0202 | eightyeight yes they had |
| 22:03.09 | unum | fugue88: so they don't have enough money to pave the road |
| 22:03.14 | eightyeight | shrug0202: no, they haven't |
| 22:03.19 | unum | so my car gets banged up driving over pot holes |
| 22:03.20 | shrug0202 | try not paying your taxes and see if men with guns come to your home and take you away |
| 22:03.23 | fugue88 | 1 neighbor not paying, and now everyone else is suffering, eh? |
| 22:03.41 | shrug0202 | the threat of a gun is the only reason they can force you to give up a portion of your life |
| 22:03.47 | fugue88 | How much taxes is that neighbor not paying? |
| 22:03.47 | unum | fugue88: happens at my hoa |
| 22:04.00 | unum | fugue88: you know what I meant |
| 22:04.03 | eightyeight | shrug0202: it's not the threat of a gun. force doesn't mean deadly ammo |
| 22:04.26 | fugue88 | unum: Maybe, but it was still a false dichotomy. That makes it hard for the discussion to get the real issues and real solutions. |
| 22:04.28 | unum | shrug0202: they don't shoot people for not paying taxes, you're being extreme |
| 22:04.31 | shrug0202 | it's definitely the threat of a gun |
| 22:04.32 | eightyeight | shrug0202: you can go to jail for not paying your taxes, and never see a gun |
| 22:04.38 | shrug0202 | and the threat of imprisonment |
| 22:04.46 | unum | fugue88: fine, half my neighbors don't pay and the other half of us suffer |
| 22:04.52 | eightyeight | shrug0202: no, it's the use of force. force != guns |
| 22:05.00 | fugue88 | unum: That's better. |
| 22:05.01 | shrug0202 | well they can only imprison you by forcing you into tour jail cell at the point of a gun |
| 22:05.01 | fugue88 | :) |
| 22:05.09 | shrug0202 | without that gun they'd have no chance |
| 22:05.15 | unum | fugue88: still doesn't change the orgument |
| 22:05.17 | eightyeight | shrug0202: you're hilarious |
| 22:05.20 | fugue88 | Now, we can retaliate: You make those half pay, but now *they* are the suffering half. |
| 22:05.45 | unum | fugue88: ok let's say a quarter |
| 22:06.01 | fugue88 | Yes, there are degress here. |
| 22:06.03 | unum | why should 3/4's have to suffer because of the the 1/4th |
| 22:06.06 | fugue88 | That's a key to it. |
| 22:06.13 | shrug0202 | well you're a 22 year old kid, lol you graduate from high school and go to college and think you know how to run the world, including other ppl's lives |
| 22:06.16 | fugue88 | Also, "suffering" has degrees. |
| 22:06.22 | shrug0202 | lol that's what I think is hilarious about you |
| 22:06.25 | shrug0202 | :) |
| 22:06.48 | fugue88 | shrug0202: eightyeight's an old fart. |
| 22:06.52 | fugue88 | :D |
| 22:06.53 | unum | shrug0202: my college professors used to argue the same things you arguing, and I told them they were wrong |
| 22:07.07 | eightyeight | fugue88: who you calling old grandpa? |
| 22:07.22 | fugue88 | Hey, I'm "old, fat, and blad" myself---all programmers are, right? |
| 22:07.24 | unum | and the older I get, the more I believe they are wrong |
| 22:07.39 | fugue88 | *bald, not blad |
| 22:07.49 | unum | of course there were professors that I agreed with as well |
| 22:07.55 | eightyeight | shrug0202: it's not the use of deadly force. just the use of force. there are many means of force that don't involve guns |
| 22:08.25 | unum | police officers in england manager to enforce many laws with out guns |
| 22:08.26 | shrug0202 | exactly, then we agree it's the iniatuon of force |
| 22:08.30 | shrug0202 | initiation |
| 22:08.40 | eightyeight | shrug0202: i've been arguing that since the start |
| 22:08.52 | shrug0202 | the person who initiates force against any innocent person is wrong, immoral |
| 22:08.54 | unum | shrug0202: we never disagreed about the use of force. it was the shooting we argued against |
| 22:09.13 | shrug0202 | wel then you're a disgusting specimen |
| 22:09.23 | shrug0202 | :P |
| 22:09.25 | eightyeight | shrug0202: it's part of complex cultures. as soon as you start implementing social classes, a hierarchy is created, and force becomes reality |
| 22:09.27 | shrug0202 | who pretends to be human |
| 22:09.28 | unum | now it depends on your definition of innocent |
| 22:09.41 | unum | by innocent do you mean someone who has done no harm to anyone else? |
| 22:09.42 | eightyeight | shrug0202: even if we didn't have taxes, force would still be a very real part of our culture |
| 22:09.48 | unum | then we have to define harm to anyone else |
| 22:09.52 | shrug0202 | innocent means that the person has not initiated the use f physical force against anyone |
| 22:10.00 | unum | at what age are we able to hold someone responsible? |
| 22:10.10 | shrug0202 | eightyeight: that's what the police arefor |
| 22:10.18 | unum | oh, so if i still something out of your house while you're gone, I'm still innocent? |
| 22:10.24 | shrug0202 | no |
| 22:10.24 | eightyeight | shrug0202: if you don't like the use of force, then you need to live in a much more simplistic society such as tribes or bands |
| 22:10.29 | shrug0202 | you orced your way into my home |
| 22:10.31 | unum | now I'm confused |
| 22:10.43 | unum | eightyeight: still exists |
| 22:10.44 | unum | :) |
| 22:10.49 | shrug0202 | you forced your way into my home without my permission and stole my property |
| 22:10.52 | JoshH | so since you know your philosophical ideas won't come to fruition in the next couple decades, what do you suggest for now? |
| 22:10.54 | eightyeight | unum: of course |
| 22:11.11 | shrug0202 | lol my philosophy is already coming to fruition |
| 22:11.17 | eightyeight | shrug0202: you're muddying the waters |
| 22:11.52 | eightyeight | shrug0202: unum breaking into your home by means of force is not what we're arguing. what we're arguing is whether unum should pay for his crime, and if so, how if not with force? |
| 22:11.55 | unum | shrug0202: so if I loan you money and you don't pay me back, is that force? |
| 22:11.56 | shrug0202 | people are getting sick of this economy and the broken promises by politicans, crony capitalism without any consequences |
| 22:12.23 | shrug0202 | he should pay for his crime by police force |
| 22:12.26 | *** join/#utah mecworks (~marc@nat/novell/x-iqktkhrvyuruvwpi) |
| 22:12.26 | fugue88 | I'm sick of this economy and the broken promises of politicians, crony capitalism without any consequences. |
| 22:12.27 | shrug0202 | force is okay |
| 22:12.29 | shrug0202 | but only |
| 22:12.32 | unum | shrug0202: but you're advocating more capitalism and less consequences |
| 22:12.33 | shrug0202 | against the person |
| 22:12.43 | shrug0202 | who initiated the force to begin with |
| 22:13.34 | eightyeight | so, you agree force should be used in our society? i'm lost at what your point is then |
| 22:13.45 | shrug0202 | no I'm advocating capitalism and freedom, with police to ensure theft and initiation of force, and fraud, cannot be allowed to occur |
| 22:13.48 | Gate | ... This is what I get for looking away... |
| 22:13.52 | eightyeight | shrug0202: weren't you advocating no force at the beginning, due to taxes? |
| 22:13.58 | fozzmoo | shrug0202++ :-) |
| 22:14.06 | fugue88 | shrug0202: I'd hate to have a police state like that. |
| 22:14.07 | unum | shrug0202: fraud isn't force |
| 22:14.09 | shrug0202 | I'm saying that the INITIATION of feces is WRONG in all cases |
| 22:14.13 | unum | now I'm really confused |
| 22:14.16 | eightyeight | there's that feces again |
| 22:14.20 | eightyeight | unum: you're not the only one |
| 22:14.21 | shrug0202 | except agains those who initiated force to begin with |
| 22:14.33 | shrug0202 | fraud is force |
| 22:14.33 | unum | shrug0202: do you consider fraud force? |
| 22:14.35 | unum | ok |
| 22:14.37 | shrug0202 | it's deception |
| 22:14.55 | eightyeight | shrug0202: curious, but that's the second time you've typed feces in place of force. is there something about you that we don't want to know? ã |
| 22:15.08 | unum | so people shouldn't be able to obtain services with out paying for them? |
| 22:15.21 | shrug0202 | haha like I said you're a little 22 year old commie bastard who will never understand |
| 22:15.28 | eightyeight | ? |
| 22:15.39 | fugue88 | shrug0202: unum is an old fart, too. |
| 22:15.39 | shrug0202 | you may as well join Obama's Youth or something |
| 22:16.02 | shrug0202 | well he acts like a child |
| 22:16.04 | unum | shrug0202: I've argued this with far better educated people than yourself |
| 22:16.06 | eightyeight | shrug0202: unum is just trying to understand your position. you keep changing hands |
| 22:16.14 | shrug0202 | and has the intellectual prowess of a teenager |
| 22:16.18 | eightyeight | shrug0202: he's never called you a name... |
| 22:16.23 | shrug0202 | I haven't once changed my position |
| 22:16.31 | unum | you use words differently than they are defined |
| 22:16.33 | eightyeight | you were against force, now you're for it |
| 22:16.44 | shrug0202 | I'm against initiation of force |
| 22:17.01 | shrug0202 | retaliation against force, by force, is proper |
| 22:17.03 | unum | I've read this crap before |
| 22:17.06 | fozzmoo | I'm against initiation of force... |
| 22:17.12 | shrug0202 | I'm sure you have |
| 22:17.13 | eightyeight | how can you support the use of force, without initiating it? i'm really lost |
| 22:17.19 | fozzmoo | except against guys who grow old without gaining any wisdom. |
| 22:17.22 | JoshH | i'm for The Force |
| 22:17.23 | unum | ayn rand |
| 22:17.24 | shrug0202 | and it says volumes about you that you refuse to understand |
| 22:17.24 | fozzmoo | Then I want to knock the crap out of them. |
| 22:17.32 | unum | I guess I should read the book so I can argue against it |
| 22:17.52 | shrug0202 | yeah maybe you shouldread "the book" whichever one that is |
| 22:18.07 | shrug0202 | so you can argue against it |
| 22:18.12 | eightyeight | he's referring to ayn rand |
| 22:18.13 | unum | atlas shrugs seems to be the most influential |
| 22:18.21 | fozzmoo | Shrugged. |
| 22:18.25 | shrug0202 | there's probably a reason for that |
| 22:18.30 | unum | fozzmoo: which most influenced your thinking |
| 22:18.42 | fozzmoo | Is that a question? |
| 22:18.48 | fugue88 | unum: Same question to you, out of curiosity. |
| 22:19.06 | fugue88 | Genuinely, friendenly, curious. |
| 22:19.10 | unum | fozzmoo: yes, I seem to remember you saying you had read some |
| 22:19.11 | fugue88 | :) |
| 22:19.23 | JoshH | is is obama exerting a lot more force than bush did? |
| 22:19.23 | fozzmoo | I've read a books. |
| 22:19.30 | JoshH | which president uses the most force |
| 22:19.31 | unum | fugue88: utopia :) |
| 22:19.40 | fozzmoo | few books. |
| 22:19.41 | unum | fozzmoo: have you read ayn rand? |
| 22:19.55 | fozzmoo | Yeah. I've read AS and Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal. |
| 22:20.17 | fozzmoo | AS, of course, is a novel. A very long and wordy novel. |
| 22:20.29 | fozzmoo | The other is a collection of essays by Rand and her colleagues. |
| 22:20.34 | Gate | My Utopia can beat up your Utopia! |
| 22:20.40 | unum | fugue88: seriously I'd say the autobiography of theodore roosevelt has most influenced my political thinking |
| 22:20.42 | fozzmoo | wishes he had UTOPIA |
| 22:21.08 | shrug0202 | of course it did, that makes total sense |
| 22:21.08 | fugue88 | ~console fozzmoo |
| 22:21.08 | ibot | ACTION gives fozzmoo the consolation moose |
| 22:21.18 | fozzmoo | Theodore Roosevelt was an interesting creature. Progressive, but nowhere near as evil as Wilson. |
| 22:21.21 | eightyeight | i hope i can move to a city that provides access |
| 22:21.22 | shrug0202 | based on your motivations |
| 22:21.30 | JoshH | shrug0202: if unum is anything like me, he's had hundreds of conversations with people who say literally the exact same sentences you are using either verbatim or close to it for the last 10-15 years online. i just don't think a world where every road is private and all taxes are voluntary is going to happen, ever, at least in america. nobody's ideal utopia is. |
| 22:22.21 | shrug0202 | roads don't have to be private, but the tax must be voluntary... and that's fine I'm sure you have had this conversation before; I've also had many like this |
| 22:22.44 | eightyeight | JoshH: from what i could tell, unum was still digging trying to understand where shrug0202 is coming from. the data seems incomplete and contradictory at times |
| 22:23.07 | shrug0202 | haha you haven't paid attention then |
| 22:23.20 | JoshH | it's just that i've never heard libertarians suggest anything new, or seem willing to talk about any compromises. it's always just "the government's force is immoral" and stuff. |
| 22:23.31 | fozzmoo | As for me, I'd like most of what is currently done at the federal level handled at the state and local level, if handled by a govt entity at all. |
| 22:23.46 | JoshH | i'm all about libertarian positions when it comes to social issues |
| 22:23.53 | shrug0202 | well of course there's no compromise |
| 22:23.55 | eightyeight | shrug0202: oh, i've paid attention. and keep reading the backlogs wondering how you come off calling him names and a teenager |
| 22:24.08 | shrug0202 | in a compromise between good and evil only evil can win |
| 22:24.15 | shrug0202 | good has nothing to gain in such a deal |
| 22:24.27 | JoshH | i don't think good or evil are the issue here though |
| 22:24.34 | shrug0202 | if someone advocates 75 percent taxes then of course there will be no compromise |
| 22:24.39 | JoshH | this isn't a battle against sauron |
| 22:24.40 | shrug0202 | by those who care about their lives |
| 22:24.50 | fugue88 | shrug0202: That'd be true, but not all decisions are between good and evil. Some are between different goods, even by the same measure of goodness. |
| 22:24.52 | eightyeight | JoshH: no, it's against satan. |
| 22:25.05 | shrug0202 | it's all about good ad evil |
| 22:25.20 | shrug0202 | not in the religious sense |
| 22:25.25 | JoshH | so when the government forces you to pay taxes for a road, it's satan's doing? |
| 22:25.36 | fugue88 | JoshH: Secular-Satan's. |
| 22:25.41 | shrug0202 | I'm an atheist |
| 22:25.48 | shrug0202 | so, no |
| 22:25.55 | JoshH | k |
| 22:26.07 | shrug0202 | but the force itself is immoral |
| 22:26.13 | shrug0202 | if peope want roads they'll pay |
| 22:26.16 | shrug0202 | voluntarily |
| 22:26.25 | JoshH | i've just never thought of any political views as being inherently good or evil |
| 22:26.30 | *** join/#utah carmony (~justin@c-24-10-194-172.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 22:26.32 | eightyeight | you've said that. just not enough wil pay to keep the roads in good condition |
| 22:26.35 | shrug0202 | really?? |
| 22:26.36 | JoshH | who will pay? |
| 22:26.40 | JoshH | the people that live on it? |
| 22:26.53 | shrug0202 | you've never thought of any particular political views as being good or evil?????? |
| 22:26.54 | JoshH | the businesses that drive on it? |
| 22:26.59 | eightyeight | shrug0202: so, are you donating to freenode? you're using it after all |
| 22:27.01 | shrug0202 | how? |
| 22:27.02 | JoshH | the consumers who use the goods that are delivered over them? |
| 22:27.05 | JoshH | cause that's kinda how it is now |
| 22:27.11 | shrug0202 | no I don't |
| 22:27.17 | shrug0202 | don't plan on it either |
| 22:27.21 | shrug0202 | I rarely use it |
| 22:27.23 | eightyeight | why not volunteer your money? |
| 22:27.33 | shrug0202 | and nobody yet has solicited a donation from me anyway |
| 22:27.41 | eightyeight | bingo |
| 22:27.42 | fugue88 | shrug0202: Would you please donate? |
| 22:27.51 | shrug0202 | do you represent Freenode? |
| 22:27.53 | JoshH | private roads are one of the toughest things for libertarians to ideologically defend, but i see them brought up in every one of these conversations near the beginning |
| 22:27.55 | eightyeight | nope |
| 22:27.56 | shrug0202 | it doesn't matter |
| 22:28.00 | shrug0202 | no I won't donate |
| 22:28.06 | fugue88 | shrug0202: I don't need to, I solicited you anyway. |
| 22:28.14 | eightyeight | shrug0202: and people won't pay taxes |
| 22:28.17 | shrug0202 | this service isn't very valuable to me |
| 22:28.31 | shrug0202 | well they won't pay for things like obamacare and endless wars |
| 22:28.35 | JoshH | how much would you pay for the road to your house? |
| 22:28.44 | eightyeight | shrug0202: what's obamacare? |
| 22:28.49 | shrug0202 | they'll pay for police if they think it will prtect them from their neighbor coming by and taking their property |
| 22:29.26 | fugue88 | shrug0202: Police aren't supposed to prevent crime. |
| 22:29.27 | shrug0202 | that depends, I'd have to get together with my neighbors and see if we could pool our money to build a road |
| 22:29.31 | eightyeight | shrug0202: i have a gun. i can defend my own property. i don't need taxes to do that for me |
| 22:29.36 | JoshH | what if all your neighbors were broke? |
| 22:29.55 | JoshH | or what if the cost of asphalt was too much? |
| 22:30.03 | JoshH | would you just be happy with dirt? |
| 22:30.32 | unum | JoshH: my favorite questin, who owns the dirt |
| 22:30.34 | shrug0202 | well I probably wouldn't like it but I would have no right to force someone in another town to pay for my road would I? |
| 22:30.41 | unum | why can't someone just build a house there |
| 22:31.09 | JoshH | unum: that's a good one |
| 22:31.17 | unum | there's a difference between argueing for more localized control and argueing for anarchy |
| 22:31.17 | eightyeight | shrug0202: when you joined, why were you asking if you could steal cable? (off-topic, but i'm curious) |
| 22:31.30 | fugue88 | Oh, same guy? |
| 22:31.45 | shrug0202 | but if my neighbors and I got together and feces everyone, then we would have the right, right? because teres more than one f us, and we're in "need" |
| 22:31.48 | eightyeight | 04:26 < shrug0202> How does one steal cable? |
| 22:31.51 | shrug0202 | lol yeah |
| 22:32.03 | shrug0202 | I asked because that was the channel topcoat |
| 22:32.05 | shrug0202 | topic |
| 22:32.16 | shrug0202 | I have no interest in stealing cable |
| 22:32.47 | JoshH | shrug0202: what if one neighbor didn't want any road at all in front of his house, and you couldn't build around it |
| 22:32.54 | JoshH | would you just have a stretch of dirt to cross there? |
| 22:33.19 | JoshH | there's a reason people decided that civilizations were a good thing |
| 22:33.23 | shrug0202 | if he owned the property in front of his house, sure. but if he doesn't own that property then it's too bad for him |
| 22:33.26 | unum | yes there is |
| 22:33.30 | shrug0202 | the road will be built abywy |
| 22:33.36 | shrug0202 | yes |
| 22:33.39 | shrug0202 | we agree on that |
| 22:33.42 | fugue88 | Boy, these are some strange typos. |
| 22:34.01 | unum | so you would just build across someones property? |
| 22:34.10 | shrug0202 | I think we disagree on what is a civilization |
| 22:34.11 | eightyeight | fugue88: i get a kick out of s/force/feces/. it's happened three times |
| 22:34.15 | shrug0202 | unum no |
| 22:34.28 | shrug0202 | I said if he owned his property there's nothing we could do |
| 22:34.30 | fugue88 | wonders if shrug0202 is using some sort of predictive typing |
| 22:34.30 | JoshH | eightyeight: he has some scat porn in his browser and it keeps distracting him |
| 22:34.39 | shrug0202 | beside we would want everyone else torespect our property |
| 22:34.39 | eightyeight | JoshH: tmi |
| 22:35.02 | shrug0202 | you guys enjoy your commie wasteland. I'm going for lunch |
| 22:35.25 | fugue88 | ~feed shrug0202 |
| 22:35.25 | ibot | ACTION offers shrug0202 some herring |
| 22:35.27 | Gate | Monkies apply force to feces, and I think that is wrong. |
| 22:35.28 | eightyeight | commie wasteland? this isn't chernobyl |
| 22:35.36 | unum | Gate: agreed |
| 22:35.41 | shrug0202 | it's Obama's land |
| 22:35.42 | unum | eightyeight: ha! |
| 22:35.44 | shrug0202 | enjoy |
| 22:36.01 | JoshH | obama owns it? |
| 22:36.06 | eightyeight | so, was it bush's land before obama? |
| 22:36.07 | fugue88 | JoshH: duh. |
| 22:36.11 | shrug0202 | he thinks he does |
| 22:36.12 | fugue88 | eightyeight: duh. |
| 22:36.19 | unum | or maybe he was just refering to the channel |
| 22:36.30 | shrug0202 | by trying to force everyone to buy a good or service |
| 22:36.38 | shrug0202 | that's unconstitutional |
| 22:36.43 | unum | no it's not |
| 22:36.48 | eightyeight | shrug0202: how so? |
| 22:36.52 | JoshH | i'm forced to buy clothes |
| 22:36.53 | fugue88 | unum: How so? |
| 22:36.55 | JoshH | i can't walk around without them |
| 22:37.00 | unum | the constitution specifically requires everyone to buy military protection |
| 22:37.05 | unum | really you should try reading it |
| 22:37.09 | shrug0202 | yes military protection |
| 22:37.13 | JoshH | how dare those jack booted government thugs with guns force me to cover up like this is iran |
| 22:37.21 | shrug0202 | that's a proper function of government |
| 22:37.33 | shrug0202 | healthcare administration is not |
| 22:37.33 | unum | shrug0202: but it's forcing purchase of a service |
| 22:37.33 | fugue88 | unum: I have. I guess it depends on what you call "buying." In an individual sense versus collective, for example. |
| 22:37.53 | eightyeight | i should get back to work. this has been rather entertaining |
| 22:38.10 | JoshH | shrug0202: enjoy your lunch, and thanks for the comedy |
| 22:38.17 | shrug0202 | right the whole issue is indivdualism vs. collectivism. I think everyone should find out which one they are |
| 22:38.29 | shrug0202 | and decide if that's who they want to remain |
| 22:38.37 | JoshH | enjoy the commie road and stoplights on the way to get it, and the commie FDA that helps prevent it from killing you |
| 22:38.49 | unum | fugue88: in one case the government is taking your money and buying the service itself, in the other it's requireing you to choose the service for your self |
| 22:38.56 | JoshH | i'm both, depending on the issue |
| 22:39.01 | fugue88 | unum: Agreed. And I do see your point. |
| 22:39.28 | unum | the fda is my favorite thing to bring up with tea partiers |
| 22:39.37 | unum | really? you want to inspect your own food? |
| 22:39.45 | unum | I have better things to do with my time |
| 22:39.47 | shrug0202 | enjoy your pointless banter :) you all agree on the basic premises so there's not much valuable argument happening here anyway |
| 22:39.49 | JoshH | unum: without it, companies that killed people would just lose customers and get a bad reputation, and the market would take care of them |
| 22:40.12 | unum | JoshH: because that's what was happening before it was created |
| 22:40.12 | *** join/#utah maquis (~maquis@c-98-247-72-114.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 22:40.13 | *** mode/#utah [+v maquis] by ChanServ |
| 22:40.23 | unum | company rename, rebrand, and keep killing people |
| 22:40.23 | eightyeight | JoshH: except when there's monopolies, like tyson chicken |
| 22:40.30 | unum | ask black water how it's done |
| 22:40.30 | maquis | too much fun with the google homepage today... |
| 22:40.31 | eightyeight | or monsanto soy beans |
| 22:40.41 | unum | eightyeight has an even better argument |
| 22:40.42 | JoshH | i know, until the government succumbed to evil and started forcing them to comply with regulations at gunpoint |
| 22:41.01 | fugue88 | Funny, the FDA hasn't stopped Monsanto from poisoning food. |
| 22:41.11 | fugue88 | (Unless I've missed some news.) |
| 22:41.32 | eightyeight | fugue88: unless i've missed some news, i'm not aware of monsanto killing people with their soy beans |
| 22:41.34 | JoshH | well obviously the FDA is far from perfect, and our whole regulation system is a mess |
| 22:41.40 | JoshH | there's plenty of corruption to go around too |
| 22:41.42 | fugue88 | eightyeight: So far, just non-people animals. |
| 22:41.44 | JoshH | but it's still better than nothing at all |
| 22:42.02 | fugue88 | eightyeight: Including farm animals. |
| 22:42.14 | JoshH | i think the plan for rfid and better tracking of cattle is good |
| 22:42.27 | eightyeight | shrug0202: curious ,what are your views on animal rights? |
| 22:42.45 | JoshH | they have the right to be either grilled, roasted, or fried |
| 22:43.04 | fugue88 | JoshH: Do they have the right to *pick*? |
| 22:43.07 | JoshH | by whoever owns them |
| 22:43.10 | eightyeight | shrug0202: should tyson be treating the chickens in the coops they way they are? should fur boots be made? |
| 22:43.16 | unum | I want to meet the meat!!! |
| 22:44.07 | eightyeight | i can understand being vegetarian when you think about the many regulations that are being skipped over for safety |
| 22:44.21 | eightyeight | however, there's been a fair share of vegetarian scares too |
| 22:44.25 | eightyeight | *shrug* |
| 22:44.44 | JoshH | there's no way to be completely safe |
| 22:44.53 | JoshH | maybe if you test the soil in your backyard for chemicals and stuff |
| 22:44.57 | eightyeight | to be honest though, i really like my leather wallet. so, thanks to the cow that provided it |
| 22:45.04 | eightyeight | JoshH: yeah |
| 22:46.09 | eightyeight | i have taken an interest in manufacturing honey though |
| 22:46.18 | eightyeight | apparently, it's done on the cheap, and the return is quite high |
| 22:46.58 | eightyeight | plus, i've been told that consuming honey made from the state you live in helps relieve seasonal allergies |
| 22:47.13 | JoshH | most honey i see at the stores is utah made |
| 22:47.19 | JoshH | i don't use too much though |
| 22:47.25 | fugue88 | eightyeight: I've actually tried that, with some success (consuming and allergies, that is). |
| 22:47.26 | eightyeight | i haven't tried it |
| 22:47.35 | shrug0202 | apparently eightyeight is a greedy capitalist after all. come on guys let's take his honey profits and use it for healthcare |
| 22:47.43 | shrug0202 | hurry before he realizes WTF we're doing! |
| 22:47.52 | eightyeight | fugue88: better than claritin or allegra? |
| 22:48.14 | eightyeight | shrug0202: you can have all you want, if you want it that bad |
| 22:48.16 | unum | I really have a hard time getting upset over being required to pay for something I was already paying for |
| 22:48.18 | eightyeight | shrug0202: i'll just give it to you |
| 22:48.29 | fugue88 | eightyeight: Don't know. I've used chlor-tabs (can't remember the full chemical name). Honey only eases the reactions, but does so well enough that I could usually go w/o the pill. |
| 22:48.42 | eightyeight | fugue88: nice |
| 22:48.47 | shrug0202 | okay please slave away making honey all day |
| 22:48.50 | shrug0202 | because I want it all |
| 22:48.54 | fugue88 | eightyeight: There's about a 1-week ramp-up of taking honey daily before you'll notice it's affects. |
| 22:49.01 | shrug0202 | and thank you for being my slave! |
| 22:49.08 | fugue88 | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:49.21 | unum | the funny thing about shrug0202 earlier comments is that I was a conservative when I was 22 |
| 22:49.42 | shrug0202 | no I said you are and always have been a socialist |
| 22:49.43 | unum | well the change start right before I turned 21 I was roommates with my very liberal friend.... |
| 22:49.52 | shrug0202 | oh sorry misunderstood your comment |
| 22:49.56 | eightyeight | shrug0202: that's what he's saying |
| 22:50.04 | JoshH | i had some libertarian tendencies then, and still do, but i've never been as extreme as most libertarians you see on the internet |
| 22:50.24 | shrug0202 | I'm not a libertarian for the record |
| 22:50.25 | unum | I took classes from libertarian professors, they raised some good points |
| 22:50.39 | unum | shrug0202: all of your arguments are libertarian/anarchist |
| 22:50.40 | shrug0202 | certainly not a liberal or a conservative though |
| 22:50.51 | shrug0202 | well I'm definitely not an anarchist |
| 22:50.54 | JoshH | what are you |
| 22:50.58 | unum | uh..... |
| 22:51.02 | eightyeight | shrug0202: you still haven't address my question about you stances towards animal rights |
| 22:51.12 | eightyeight | s/you stances/your stances/ |
| 22:51.13 | shrug0202 | you wouldn't care to know |
| 22:51.20 | unum | eightyeight: I think he was away from keyboard for a bit |
| 22:51.22 | eightyeight | shrug0202: i do. that's why i'm asking |
| 22:51.30 | eightyeight | unum: yeah. i still highlighted him |
| 22:51.33 | JoshH | a tea party patriot? |
| 22:51.41 | shrug0202 | lol you guys are a riot |
| 22:52.17 | eightyeight | shrug0202: what is your stance on animal rights? |
| 22:52.23 | fugue88 | eightyeight: fwiw, you may want to experiment with raw honey versus pasturized. I didn't have enough time this summer to make any conclusion there. |
| 22:52.36 | *** part/#utah fugue88 (~dsowen@173-165-137-65-utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 22:52.40 | eightyeight | fugue88: ok. i've heard raw is the way to go |
| 22:52.41 | eightyeight | ... |
| 22:52.54 | shrug0202 | my stance in animal rights in law? or my personal opinion about animals? |
| 22:53.37 | eightyeight | shrug0202: should animals be consumed for our pleasure? leather goods? fur goods? eating and drinking? |
| 22:53.39 | shrug0202 | there's no reason to waste my iPhone battery on this chat rol |
| 22:53.42 | shrug0202 | room |
| 22:53.56 | shrug0202 | yes, theyshould be used for all of the above |
| 22:54.03 | eightyeight | shrug0202: also, business practices towards tthe way animals are raised and slaughter |
| 22:54.10 | eightyeight | s/$/ed/ |
| 22:54.21 | JoshH | we should drink animals? |
| 22:54.32 | JoshH | sticks a cat in the blender |
| 22:54.33 | shrug0202 | yes we should drink animals! |
| 22:54.35 | eightyeight | ~lart JoshH |
| 22:54.35 | ibot | gets a hotmal account and SPAMs JoshH |
| 22:54.35 | shrug0202 | :D |
| 22:54.53 | JoshH | probably a good way to get protein |
| 22:55.27 | unum | shrug0202: why did you assume we were younger because we oppose libertarianism? |
| 22:57.42 | eightyeight | unum: when you can get your argument across, a good diversion tactic is start creating labels and stereotypes, even if they don't exist |
| 22:58.09 | unum | ad homim attacks, which is what makes me think he's younger |
| 22:58.16 | eightyeight | exactly |
| 22:59.00 | shrug0202 | I made no assumption about you unum, I assumed "eightyeight" was his birth year. I'm well aware that the trend in the U.S. is toward socialism, being advocated by young and old alike. but younger people, especially those who grew up in the public education system, seem to be more easily manipulated |
| 22:59.24 | unum | ah that makes sense |
| 22:59.42 | unum | but I was raised as a conservative |
| 22:59.54 | unum | I used to tape rush limbaugh tv show when I was in junior high |
| 23:00.06 | JoshH | dear lord |
| 23:00.10 | unum | ya |
| 23:00.29 | unum | my parents made one fatal mistake though |
| 23:00.30 | eightyeight | i was raised conservative as well. being a mormon born in utah, i would expect that of the majority |
| 23:00.35 | unum | they encouraged me to read |
| 23:00.44 | unum | eightyeight: especially in layton |
| 23:00.44 | JoshH | shrug0202: why has everyone said that the US has been drifting to the right for the last 30 years or more? |
| 23:00.54 | shrug0202 | sure, if you were exposed to that kind of crap constantly, and defined "that" as "conservativism" in your mind from a ery young age then im sure you would be repulsed |
| 23:01.01 | unum | vote repubilcan because our jobs all depend on it |
| 23:01.12 | unum | but we want them to cut spending..... |
| 23:01.17 | shrug0202 | republicans are just as "left" as the democrats |
| 23:01.23 | eightyeight | shrug0202: eightyeight isn't my birth year. it's from a nickname i had in high school as i play the piano |
| 23:01.54 | shrug0202 | i think we put labels on things just to have a label, without looking at the object |
| 23:02.07 | eightyeight | i realized, however, that i wasn't conservative when i took a political quiz at politicalcompass.org |
| 23:02.11 | unum | I was taught libertarianism in college |
| 23:02.16 | unum | rejected that as well |
| 23:02.25 | unum | eightyeight: that's just a great test |
| 23:02.31 | JoshH | i must be the only person who wasn't taught politics at all in college |
| 23:02.32 | shrug0202 | republicans in general are "borrow and spend", democrats in general are tax and spend |
| 23:02.32 | shrug0202 | both are advocating te same basic system |
| 23:02.51 | eightyeight | i then followed the democrat way of thinkning, as my views aligned with them, but left that shortly later |
| 23:02.57 | shrug0202 | republccans wont directly raise taxes, or so they say, but they'll just borrow it and destroy the future |
| 23:03.03 | unum | JoshH: I took polisci classes |
| 23:03.13 | shrug0202 | democrats say that we must make an investment now in our future and destroy the present |
| 23:03.15 | JoshH | shrug0202: you are correct about that |
| 23:03.17 | eightyeight | i don't know if there's a party for my political views or not, so i call myself "liberal socialist" |
| 23:03.21 | eightyeight | it's the best i can do |
| 23:03.39 | JoshH | eightyeight: i just say socially liberal/libertarian, fiscally moderate |
| 23:03.42 | shrug0202 | lol socialism is already liberalism |
| 23:03.45 | unum | I have half a polisci degree and half a compsci degree and program computers in the political industry |
| 23:03.48 | eightyeight | but i'm not communist |
| 23:03.50 | shrug0202 | "socialist" is a fine label for you |
| 23:03.56 | eightyeight | shrug0202: it is |
| 23:04.01 | shrug0202 | there's not much difference |
| 23:04.18 | JoshH | isn't a socialist someone who wants the government to control and operate all the means of production in a state? |
| 23:04.25 | JoshH | pretty sure nobody fits that definition around here |
| 23:04.25 | eightyeight | shrug0202: i'm more anarchist than fascist |
| 23:04.26 | shrug0202 | communist/socialist/Marxist/Leninist/Stalinist... they're all forms of collectivism |
| 23:04.39 | unum | I'm a civil libertarian, but want strongly regulated markets |
| 23:04.51 | unum | shrug0202: but they are all different |
| 23:05.01 | JoshH | i actually want low spending and low taxes |
| 23:05.01 | unum | unless you listen to glen beck..... |
| 23:05.07 | eightyeight | heh |
| 23:05.13 | shrug0202 | but they all share the same basic premise that an individual has no rights. society has all rights |
| 23:05.14 | JoshH | but i'd like to spend a lot on schools, zoos, and parks and not much on the military |
| 23:05.18 | unum | shrug0202: wrong |
| 23:05.22 | eightyeight | shrug0202: wrong |
| 23:05.23 | JoshH | the military should be big enough, but not too big |
| 23:05.26 | shrug0202 | and an individual cannbe sacrificied for the collective good |
| 23:05.28 | unum | socialist allows many individual rights |
| 23:05.42 | shrug0202 | "many"? |
| 23:05.59 | unum | civil liberties as they are called |
| 23:05.59 | shrug0202 | but not all of our inherent rights? |
| 23:06.00 | unum | yes |
| 23:06.11 | unum | shrug0202: inherent rights? |
| 23:06.19 | shrug0202 | socialism will let me earn my property an keep it, or dispose of it as I please? |
| 23:06.21 | shrug0202 | no |
| 23:06.24 | shrug0202 | it will not |
| 23:06.33 | JoshH | that's not what he wants though |
| 23:06.38 | JoshH | so i guess he's not a socialist |
| 23:06.52 | eightyeight | shrug0202: that's fascist socialism |
| 23:06.54 | JoshH | you should be happy unum, your name is cleared |
| 23:06.59 | unum | depends on how you define socialism |
| 23:07.00 | shrug0202 | it requires that I sacrifice some of what earn for the sake of others |
| 23:07.27 | JoshH | shrug0202: but overall, you have it pretty good, right? |
| 23:07.32 | unum | shrug0202: is it an inherent right to not belong to to a government |
| 23:07.43 | JoshH | sure it sucks to have your paycheck taxed |
| 23:07.53 | unum | remember you're using terms that are not clearly defined |
| 23:07.54 | JoshH | but it's not worth getting all crazy about |
| 23:07.55 | shrug0202 | JoshH not really, a lot of my friends and family are unemployed |
| 23:07.57 | eightyeight | unum: civil libertarian might be a fitting term. i'll have to dig deeper |
| 23:08.02 | shrug0202 | I want the government to stop crushing the COMINT |
| 23:08.05 | unum | you have a definition that you use, but not everyone uses that definition |
| 23:08.06 | shrug0202 | economy |
| 23:08.27 | unum | inherent rights? that's a term that can mean anything |
| 23:08.33 | JoshH | pretty sure it was corporations that crushed the economy |
| 23:08.36 | JoshH | and traders |
| 23:08.37 | unum | you need to be more precise in your definitions |
| 23:08.53 | eightyeight | it's my inherent right to breathe clean air. so, smoking should be outlawed |
| 23:08.58 | shrug0202 | JoshH that's a fairy tale... traders didn't crush anything |
| 23:09.08 | shrug0202 | it's funny how speculator were blamed when oil prices were rising |
| 23:09.10 | unum | do you really thing depressions are new? |
| 23:09.18 | shrug0202 | but were not thanked when oil prices came crashing down |
| 23:09.24 | JoshH | it's even funnier how our lack of drilling in national parks was blamed |
| 23:09.39 | JoshH | oil prices came down when hummers stopped being made |
| 23:09.47 | JoshH | and people stopped driving their lifted heavy duty trucks |
| 23:09.51 | JoshH | becuase they couldn't afford to |
| 23:09.59 | unum | when the government had less control of the economy we had much more severe depressions than the current one |
| 23:10.10 | shrug0202 | oil prices came down when the credit crisis decreased demand |
| 23:10.20 | eightyeight | i stopped driving my 42 mpg highway economy car, and took the socialist/commie/markist/stalinist/lenonist public transit |
| 23:10.22 | unum | the current one is NOTHING compare to what happened on multiple occasions in the 1800's |
| 23:10.24 | shrug0202 | nope, depressions were localized |
| 23:10.36 | eightyeight | i still take public transit |
| 23:10.37 | shrug0202 | there wasn't a national currency to make everyone suffer |
| 23:10.38 | unum | no, they weren't |
| 23:10.45 | unum | in the 1800's there were |
| 23:10.49 | JoshH | eightyeight: thanks a lot for forcing me to pay for your ride! |
| 23:11.06 | JoshH | oh wait, you bought a pass right? |
| 23:11.06 | unum | s/were/was |
| 23:11.07 | shrug0202 | yes there were. depressions were lcalized only to the particular bank or banks that were having problems paying depositors |
| 23:11.10 | shrug0202 | it was called a "bank run" |
| 23:11.22 | shrug0202 | today a bank run affects the whole planet |
| 23:11.26 | unum | shrug0202: the entire nationally economy was depressed |
| 23:11.29 | JoshH | because banks are gigantic now |
| 23:11.30 | eightyeight | JoshH: yes and no. it is provided as a paying student |
| 23:11.34 | JoshH | and they basically run the country |
| 23:11.35 | unum | many banks failed |
| 23:11.35 | eightyeight | by my university |
| 23:11.39 | unum | in fact most banks failed |
| 23:11.50 | shrug0202 | then maybe we should repeal the Federal Reserve Act |
| 23:11.59 | shrug0202 | it's obviously not working |
| 23:12.00 | eightyeight | let's get on the gold standard! |
| 23:12.01 | JoshH | is that why banks are so huge? |
| 23:12.02 | eightyeight | ducks |
| 23:12.03 | unum | shrug0202: this happened before the federal reserve act |
| 23:12.05 | shrug0202 | yes |
| 23:12.08 | JoshH | how so |
| 23:12.11 | unum | the derpession since then have been mild in comparison |
| 23:12.23 | shrug0202 | do some research, the Fed is a large subject |
| 23:12.28 | JoshH | i've read plenty |
| 23:12.31 | JoshH | but i'm not convinced |
| 23:12.32 | unum | I know |
| 23:12.36 | unum | I've read a lot on it |
| 23:12.38 | JoshH | maybe you could put it another way that would make me see the light |
| 23:13.15 | eightyeight | shrug0202: so, your iphone has been chewing through its batter since 2 this morning, and kept connected to irc? that's rather impressive, actually |
| 23:13.23 | shrug0202 | if you have read "plenty" and haven't "seen the light" then nothing I can say will help you. |
| 23:13.24 | unum | shrug0202: you need to stop assuming we haven't done research, most of us are quite well read |
| 23:13.32 | shrug0202 | apparently not |
| 23:13.48 | shrug0202 | and if you are then you've made wrong decisions in choosing a moral code |
| 23:13.53 | unum | certainly we haven't read everything, but that doesn't mean we haven't read as much as you |
| 23:14.01 | shrug0202 | a moral code which makes you dictator over your neighbors |
| 23:14.08 | *** part/#utah shrug0202 (~shrug@166.205.10.152) |
| 23:14.12 | eightyeight | heh |
| 23:14.23 | eightyeight | unum: you didn't get the last word in. how do you feel now? |
| 23:14.28 | eightyeight | ã |
| 23:14.33 | unum | :( |
| 23:14.53 | unum | I was interested in learning who his influences were |
| 23:15.04 | eightyeight | he wasn't interested in answering them |
| 23:15.12 | unum | he'd probably say he figured it all out himself |
| 23:15.16 | eightyeight | he wasn't interested in answering many probing questions, it seemed |
| 23:15.48 | eightyeight | you were immature for asking such probing questions, and you're not well versed by failing to understand his views |
| 23:15.51 | JoshH | unum: ayn rand, duh |
| 23:16.02 | JoshH | and glenn beck, i have no doubt |
| 23:16.15 | unum | JoshH: it would seem such, but I'm not familiar enough with her work to be sure |
| 23:16.29 | JoshH | he mentioned her great works of art earlier |
| 23:16.34 | unum | at one point I thought glenn beck, but glenn beck advocates using government to dictate religion |
| 23:16.41 | JoshH | and i figured the shrug in his nick was somehow atlas shrugged related |
| 23:16.42 | unum | so I don't see how he could listen to him |
| 23:16.51 | unum | I wondered that to |
| 23:16.54 | JoshH | unum: i wouldn't be surprised if he just didn't care about that part |
| 23:16.58 | Gate | Beck is a loud-mouth who sometimes has something close to the truth |
| 23:17.14 | JoshH | Gate: that's how every crazy talking head is |
| 23:17.22 | Gate | Pretty much |
| 23:17.30 | eightyeight | he was standard libertarian though, wasn't he? even after denying it |
| 23:17.31 | Gate | but at least he isn't Olbermann or Nancy Grace |
| 23:17.48 | Gate | what little I read wasn't libertarianism |
| 23:17.50 | JoshH | doesn't nancy grace just talk about child kidnapping and murder trials? |
| 23:17.57 | Gate | it sounded closer to anarchism |
| 23:18.02 | JoshH | maybe you meant pelosi? |
| 23:18.02 | eightyeight | i kept waiting for god to come into the picture, but then he said he was athiest |
| 23:18.41 | eightyeight | Gate: true. he did bring up lots of anarchist points |
| 23:18.49 | Gate | JoshH: no, Nancy Grace. I have clicked on her show three times. She is a hate-monger. |
| 23:19.10 | *** join/#utah cmcguire (~cmcguire@69.27.0.89) |
| 23:19.12 | eightyeight | he's an interesting chap. i'll miss him |
| 23:20.40 | JoshH | eightyeight: i'm surprised at your lack of experience dealing with internet libertarians, but you've probably used the internet for more productive things over the years than i have |
| 23:20.59 | Gate | I have had a few conversations with anarchists in college, their point of view never seemed to have been fully considered |
| 23:21.04 | eightyeight | JoshH: i generally try to avoid arguments online. they get no where |
| 23:21.15 | eightyeight | JoshH: but he was so naive, it was entertaining to watch |
| 23:21.24 | Gate | eightyeight: good way to keep your blood-pressure up. |
| 23:21.44 | eightyeight | not only irc, but every other social interaction on the web. |
| 23:22.12 | eightyeight | i've found that political, religious and philisophical views are rarely changed through debate |
| 23:22.29 | JoshH | it takes a lot of debate over a long time |
| 23:22.37 | JoshH | i've seen it happen over long periods of time like that |
| 23:22.44 | eightyeight | they're mostly changed through curiosity, which leads to reading or formal discussion. not pointless banter |
| 23:23.35 | eightyeight | so yeah, i'm inexperienced with such things, and hope to remain so |
| 23:24.04 | eightyeight | i'm not emotionally hurt or damaged when someone doesn't like a view i follow |
| 23:24.10 | fungus | I really enjoy learning about other peoples philosophies and such. Especially their motives for such ideals. |
| 23:25.46 | Gate | A few people have made very good and well considered points that have changed my mind, or they made me re-consider my point at least. |
| 23:25.53 | eightyeight | i like watching people. i enjoy observing. and if it's mathematical or technical, i'll usually engage |
| 23:25.59 | Gate | Most of it is a crap-throwing contest, though. |
| 23:26.42 | eightyeight | indeed |
| 23:27.07 | fozzmoo | I remember when I was about 16 or so... |
| 23:27.20 | fozzmoo | something came up in the news about condoms being distributed in schools. |
| 23:27.28 | fozzmoo | This was in the late 1980s, so it was big news then. |
| 23:27.54 | fozzmoo | My dad and I had a discussion about it and he was staunchly against the distribution of condoms in high schools. |
| 23:28.08 | JoshH | heh |
| 23:28.14 | fozzmoo | I thought it was better that kids who were having sex at least had access to ways do it safely. |
| 23:28.29 | fozzmoo | I remember him saying, "They shouldn't even be doing those things." |
| 23:28.57 | fozzmoo | I remember thinking there was no way I'd be able to change his mind. |
| 23:29.27 | JoshH | fozzmoo: same kind of thinking is why the abstinence only people don't want better information taught these days |
| 23:29.31 | fozzmoo | But over the course of discussion, I actually convinced him that it was better that kids who were going to engage in sexual behavior have access to condoms so that they might engage in those behaviors more safely. |
| 23:29.33 | JoshH | that, and they think it will condone it |
| 23:30.08 | fozzmoo | Personally, I'm of the opinion that parents should be front and center when it comes to sex education. |
| 23:30.20 | fozzmoo | Nobody should rely on public schools for that. |
| 23:30.22 | JoshH | being naughty and not getting aids is better than being naughty and getting aids, i guess |
| 23:31.03 | JoshH | fozzmoo: preferably they shouldn't only rely on the schools, but schools can teach a lot more information than most parents, about the various diseases and how they work, not to mention detailed anatomy and so forth |
| 23:31.22 | JoshH | most parents don't have a diagram of the parts with a cutaway view packed in the basement |
| 23:31.34 | JoshH | but parents should definitely have a role, most people agree with that |
| 23:31.57 | fozzmoo | I remember watching a video in high school of an abortion procedure. |
| 23:32.04 | fozzmoo | Whew. |
| 23:32.08 | fozzmoo | Seared into my brain. |
| 23:32.14 | fungus | IMHO, all education, sex and otherwise, should have parental involvement. |
| 23:32.41 | fozzmoo | But, anyway, my original point is that discussion can change minds... but only if people are willing to listen. |
| 23:32.58 | fozzmoo | And, of course, there has to be some trust between the people. |
| 23:33.04 | fungus | agreed |
| 23:33.07 | fozzmoo | trust, respect, etc. |
| 23:33.34 | JoshH | some people's mind can be changed with the right information presented the right way |
| 23:33.38 | JoshH | i respect those people |
| 23:33.40 | fungus | I try to have an open mind at least long enough to discover the motives of the originator. |
| 23:33.43 | JoshH | the stubborn ones though.... |
| 23:33.46 | fozzmoo | That's true. If the argument is compelling enough... |
| 23:34.21 | levi | That shrug0202 definitely had some Ayn Rand influence. |
| 23:34.26 | TodPunk | arguments online can be an interesting game depending on your approach. |
| 23:34.43 | levi | Sometimes interesting, but rarely productive. :) |
| 23:35.04 | fungus | eh, productivity is overrated. :) |
| 23:35.45 | TodPunk | well, depends on your definition of productive, but yeah. I learned a lot about social group interactions by doing stuff on forums. A lot I tried didn't work like I hoped it would, and I think some of those things are important in real life interactions. |
| 23:37.29 | TodPunk | You can also learn a lot about an individual by watching them argue. Probably not productive, though |
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