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| 17:16.52 | eightyeight | why does "for i in $(echo foo 1>&2); do :; done" print "foo" but "for i in $(echo foo); do :; done" not? what am i missing? |
| 17:17.08 | eightyeight | working in bash currently |
| 17:23.42 | fugue88 | eightyeight: Because the redir causes "foo" to go directly to stderr, which your $(...) doesn't grab. |
| 17:23.48 | sjansen | Because in the second version the output of the echo command is being used to assign i. |
| 17:26.43 | eightyeight | so, does "do :;" only print stderr? |
| 17:28.02 | TodPunk | the "echo foo 1>&2" bit is the thing doing the printing in that script. |
| 17:28.30 | sjansen | No, it does nothing. |
| 17:28.44 | sjansen | echo foo 1>&2 # write to stderr like always |
| 17:29.19 | eightyeight | right. i understand that. just not how it's printing |
| 17:29.20 | sjansen | : is like pass in python |
| 17:29.47 | eightyeight | also, the exit code for redirecting to STDERR is 0, which i guess is what is throwing me a curveball |
| 17:30.20 | sjansen | Dude, you don't understand. : isn't printing. stdout of echo is being captured by the for, but stderr is still connected to the screen. |
| 17:30.53 | eightyeight | hmm |
| 17:31.21 | sjansen | Try this: for i in $(echo foo); do echo "i is $i"; done |
| 17:31.29 | sjansen | Try this: for i in $(echo foo 1>&2); do echo "i is $i"; done |
| 17:33.03 | sjansen | The version where you're redirecting is equivalent to writing: |
| 17:33.14 | TehLaser | what's happening is that stderr inside the $() isn't captured. It still goes to stderr. |
| 17:33.18 | fugue88 | eightyeight: To elaborate, the version with 1>&2 isn't even entering the loop. |
| 17:33.30 | TehLaser | Wheras stdout inside the $() is being captured. |
| 17:33.45 | sjansen | echo foo; for i in ; do echo "i is $i"; done |
| 17:34.33 | sjansen | BTW, as a general rule "for I in $()" is almost always a mistake. |
| 17:35.43 | eightyeight | i see |
| 17:36.14 | fugue88 | sjansen: Curious, what would a better pattern be? xargs -l ? |
| 17:36.59 | sjansen | I'm not familiar with the -l option, but yes xargs is one of the correct answers. |
| 17:37.25 | fugue88 | sjansen: -l means one line at a time, as opposed to grouping several items from input into each run of the command |
| 17:37.35 | sjansen | In general, if you're trying to glob, just glob. If you're looping on the output of a command use xarge or "for read". |
| 17:37.54 | fugue88 | Oh yeah, for read. I always forget about that one. |
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| 17:38.28 | sjansen | for FILE in $(ls *.txt) --> for FILE in *.txt |
| 17:38.55 | goozbach | sjansen: what about the case you want to do something like this: |
| 17:39.05 | sjansen | for LINE in $(find -name '*.txt') --> find -name '*.txt' | while read LINE |
| 17:39.30 | goozbach | for FILE in $(find . -iname foo | tr 'x' 'z') .... |
| 17:39.49 | goozbach | pipe the whole shabang into while read huh |
| 17:40.33 | goozbach | I use for i in $(...) a lot |
| 17:40.38 | goozbach | I should re-tool I suppose |
| 17:40.52 | sjansen | The problem with $() is that it can expand larger than the maximum command length. Ad hoc tests don't usually catch the mistake because most people don't try a large enough test case. So it makes it into production where it goes boom some days but not others and they can never figure out why. |
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| 17:41.44 | goozbach | makes sense |
| 17:42.01 | fugue88 | sjansen: for VAR in $(...) has a limit? Yikes. |
| 17:42.36 | sjansen | All Bash commands have a maximum command length. |
| 17:42.53 | fugue88 | I was hoping for unicorns. |
| 17:42.59 | sjansen | The exact limit is OS dependent, but usually > 1k. |
| 17:43.29 | JoshH | you mean like the limit with rm? |
| 17:43.36 | JoshH | "too many files", etc |
| 17:44.06 | sjansen | Pretty much. |
| 17:44.46 | sjansen | strings $(which rm) | grep too |
| 17:44.54 | sjansen | strings $(which bash) | grep too |
| 17:45.02 | sjansen | The error is coming from bash, not rm. |
| 17:46.10 | fugue88 | I don't get an error. |
| 17:47.15 | JoshH | i thought there was a kernel limit that stopped you from deleting too many files with rm |
| 17:47.19 | sjansen | It'll depend on how your binaries are compiled, but on my RHEL5 box rm doesn't have any strings containing "too" while bash has several including "too many arguments". |
| 17:47.20 | JoshH | not that it's rm specific or anything |
| 17:47.50 | sjansen | I'm not aware of a kernel function that allows you to delete more than one file at a time. |
| 17:48.30 | JoshH | i mean, for example, you go to a maildir that has a gazillion files and type rm * |
| 17:48.43 | JoshH | you get too many arguments, and should use find and rm instead, etc |
| 17:48.50 | JoshH | i thought that was some kind of kernel limitation, rather than bash |
| 17:48.54 | JoshH | but maybe it's just a different issue |
| 17:48.55 | sjansen | Right, that's Bash complaining that it expanded * and it got too long. |
| 17:49.21 | JoshH | so if you used a different shell, it might work? |
| 17:49.29 | fugue88 | The limit there is that a command line can be only so long. That is a kernel limit, but for every program, not just rm'ing. |
| 17:50.30 | sjansen | You're not passing * to rm. Bash goes through a series of about seven steps rewriting the command, including the globbing step where it turns patterns into lists of files. |
| 17:52.51 | sjansen | Which, by the way, is another problem with "for I in $(ls *.txt)", you're introducing an extra tokenizing pass (among other things) which will cause the for loop to choke on filenames containing spaces. |
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| 17:54.29 | JoshH | i hate files with spaces so much |
| 17:56.50 | TodPunk | I find them useful, but I'm not using a shell all day, so I suppose I have a different perspective |
| 17:57.03 | JoshH | useful how? |
| 17:57.21 | TodPunk | for creating meaningful filenames that don't look hideous |
| 17:58.04 | TodPunk | I hate underscores with an unhealthy passion |
| 17:58.56 | goozbach | TodPunk: TryCamelCaseItWorksPrettyWell |
| 17:59.30 | JoshH | typing an underscore is much better than \ and a space, imo |
| 17:59.55 | eightyeight | meh. CamelCase, dash-separated, or underscore_separate is far better imo than some\ file\ name.txt |
| 18:00.41 | JoshH | i usually use dashes for text files, underscores for media files |
| 18:00.54 | JoshH | camelcase for other stuff |
| 18:01.03 | JoshH | and all lowercase on irc, obviously |
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| 18:01.41 | eightyeight | i don't like pressing my shift key, so i generally use all lowercase and dash-separated for everything, unless otherwise required |
| 18:03.27 | TodPunk | JoshH: again, I never have to TYPE a "\ " because I'm not on a shell. The interfaces I use to manage my files work great with spaces, so my perspective is quite altered. |
| 18:04.05 | JoshH | don't you ever use the shell on your own box for anything? |
| 18:04.16 | fungus | What bugs me more than even spaces? Repeating the parent folder name(s) in the filename. |
| 18:04.18 | JoshH | my feeble mind cannot fathom someone who never uses a shell |
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| 18:04.34 | JoshH | fungus, don't think i've ever seen that |
| 18:04.36 | fungus | Users!? :/ |
| 18:04.48 | JoshH | if i had, i'd probably be a mass murderer |
| 18:04.58 | TodPunk | I use linux on servers. The only desktop linux I have is one of my laptops, and I don't need a shell to do anything, desktop-wise. |
| 18:05.17 | JoshH | i never use graphical file managers for anything |
| 18:05.32 | JoshH | the only non-linux machine i ever use is my week old mbp |
| 18:05.45 | JoshH | and i use the terminal on that as well |
| 18:05.54 | JoshH | for most things anyway |
| 18:06.42 | TodPunk | I'm from the camp that tends to like to do things with their computer instead of managing their computer. It's just not fun to me. I have no problem seeing how others find it enjoyable, but if I'm going to manage a system, it better be a server that I've designed to be tweaked for a purpose. My desktops just need to run the apps I want to get stuff done in, not be tweaked themselves. |
| 18:06.48 | TodPunk | Like I said, just a different perspective. |
| 18:07.37 | JoshH | well, i wouldn't say that i use the shell just for fun... i truly find it faster and more efficient |
| 18:08.12 | JoshH | like if i want to copy a new album into my music folder. i'll use mv, rather than dragging it in finder/nautilus/etc |
| 18:09.34 | TodPunk | I can't really speak for linux file managers, as I've only ever used the default KDE one and the default Gnome one. |
| 18:10.32 | JoshH | i'm actually going to be putting 7 on my mbp for better starcraft 2 performance, so i guess i won't be using a terminal on that |
| 18:10.38 | JoshH | but i won't have a need to manage any files either |
| 18:14.28 | TodPunk | I used to manage my music on the laptop, but even that was just click and drag. |
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| 19:20.32 | sjansen | ~awesome |
| 19:39.37 | Sargun | has been in this channel for like 5 years. |
| 19:40.50 | sjansen | ~seen Sargun |
| 19:40.52 | ibot | sargun is currently on #maemo (1h 36m 30s) #webos-internals (1h 36m 30s) #asterisk (1h 36m 30s) #utah (1h 36m 30s) #openmoko (1h 36m 30s) #openmoko-cdevel (1h 36m 30s), last said: 'What SIP/IAX providers do you guys use for termination and origination in the UK?'. |
| 19:41.39 | sjansen | Sargun: Nah, only about an hour and a half. |
| 19:41.45 | Sargun | sjansen, -_- |
| 19:45.53 | Sargun | <3 his 1 GigE work connection... |
| 19:48.07 | eightyeight | ⥠his 10Gb work connection... |
| 19:48.19 | JoshH | eightyeight: you and me both |
| 19:48.26 | JoshH | gige from workstation to internet is pretty nice |
| 19:50.12 | eightyeight | http://www.debian.org/News/2010/20100816 |
| 19:50.33 | Sargun | eightyeight, do you have a 10GigE NIC at your work station? |
| 19:51.24 | sjansen | The requested URL /News/2010/20100816 was not found on this server. |
| 19:53.29 | JoshH | i have gige in workstation and access switches, 2x 10ge + 1 ge to the net |
| 19:55.17 | Sargun | JoshH, 2 x 10 GigE + 1 Gige balanced over BGP? |
| 19:55.22 | JoshH | yes |
| 19:55.32 | Sargun | JoshH, What are your upstream ASs? |
| 19:55.46 | JoshH | level3, xo, and nlayer |
| 19:56.08 | Sargun | nlayer is decent |
| 19:56.12 | JoshH | i love them |
| 19:56.16 | Sargun | Ras is genius. |
| 19:56.19 | Sargun | XO - ghetto. |
| 19:56.20 | JoshH | they need more of a presence in slc though |
| 19:56.32 | JoshH | xo is ghetto in most places, but one of the best options in slc |
| 19:56.34 | Sargun | Level3 - Overpriced, meh. |
| 19:56.43 | Sargun | Which one of your upstreams is 1 GigE? |
| 19:56.47 | JoshH | level3 |
| 19:57.22 | Sargun | Ah. |
| 19:57.51 | Sargun | I've much rather do Comcast than Level3 |
| 19:58.11 | JoshH | slc basically has xo, qwest, level3, verizon (which is way pricy), and that's about it |
| 19:58.36 | Sargun | Verizon/UUNET is decent, but expensive as hell. |
| 19:58.45 | JoshH | comcast over l3? is that a joke? |
| 19:58.55 | Sargun | JoshH, Have you ever bought wholesale from Comcast? |
| 19:59.05 | JoshH | no, but i checked it out |
| 19:59.21 | Sargun | Their wholesale services are actually pretty decent. |
| 20:00.14 | Sargun | especially if you're an eyeballs network |
| 20:00.21 | JoshH | i wish slc had a real carrier hotel and some peering |
| 20:00.34 | Sargun | JoshH, didn't someone try to start one? |
| 20:00.42 | JoshH | not really |
| 20:00.55 | Sargun | give me $20m and I'll build you guys a peering point :-P |
| 20:01.11 | JoshH | the U of U bought an old coca cola plant or something, and has talked about trying to make it a carrier hotel, but nothing has come of it at all |
| 20:01.39 | Sargun | JoshH, can anyone buy PtP circuits on Utopia - 10 GigE SMF? |
| 20:01.55 | JoshH | dunno about 10 gig, but gige yes |
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| 20:02.55 | Sargun | I'm surprised that no one has just hosted a peering point on Utopia |
| 20:03.02 | Sargun | is their network diverse enough to run peering over? |
| 20:03.16 | Sargun | (geographically) |
| 20:03.18 | JoshH | http://www.utopia-ix.net/ |
| 20:03.23 | JoshH | kinda small, but some stuff peers on it |
| 20:04.00 | JoshH | they're more diverse than a lot of people realize |
| 20:04.20 | JoshH | l3 delong street, kearns building, tonaquint datacenter, social hall (i think), c7, and vegas supernap |
| 20:04.55 | JoshH | basically any utopia provider can peer on that, or any other network that wants to get a connection to them, like mozy |
| 20:05.31 | Sargun | how much does it cost to join utopia |
| 20:05.41 | JoshH | lots of slc networks use qwest metro ethernet to peer as well. if you have a connection to it, vlans between customers are only 50 bucks |
| 20:05.54 | JoshH | dunno offhand |
| 20:05.58 | Sargun | knows nothing about Utopia other than it's supposed to be some godly, kickass fiber network in Utah |
| 20:06.03 | JoshH | it is |
| 20:06.08 | JoshH | i moved to a suburb just to get it at home |
| 20:06.19 | JoshH | well, that wasn't the only reason |
| 20:06.26 | JoshH | but it gave it an edge over other houses i looked at |
| 20:06.33 | JoshH | a pretty significant edge |
| 20:06.38 | JoshH | and i gotta go home now, see ya |
| 20:07.00 | Sargun | cya |
| 20:11.37 | shalkie | Happy Birthday Debian. |
| 20:13.11 | Migs | how much does it cost, JoshH? |
| 20:13.19 | Migs | oh, nm, he went home |
| 20:14.18 | Sargun | Migs! Are you still working at the school district? |
| 20:19.12 | Migs | ya |
| 20:19.15 | Migs | Love it. |
| 20:19.23 | eightyeight | sjansen: works fine here |
| 20:19.24 | Migs | I'm actually getting my masters in ed tech right now. |
| 20:19.33 | Migs | so I guess I'm pretty committed :) |
| 20:19.42 | eightyeight | Sargun: from my workstation? no. to/from my san? yes. |
| 20:20.01 | Sargun | yes... but does your SAN does your net? |
| 20:20.41 | eightyeight | i don't know what that means |
| 20:20.50 | eightyeight | "does your SAN does your net?" |
| 20:21.12 | Sargun | err |
| 20:21.22 | Sargun | does your SAN touch the public net? |
| 20:21.38 | eightyeight | Sargun: yes |
| 20:21.54 | Sargun | ah |
| 20:22.20 | sjansen | http://infoworld.com/t/government-use-it/the-terry-childs-case-san-francisco-just-guilty-886 |
| 20:23.15 | sjansen | Back in the day, there was a big push to "Free Kevin". I wonder why no one has started a "Free Terry" campaign yet. |
| 20:23.16 | rsimpkins | Didn't that guy get 7 years? |
| 20:23.27 | sjansen | 4 years |
| 20:23.52 | rsimpkins | I wonder why they decided to give him such a sentance. |
| 20:24.42 | rsimpkins | And I wonder how the SF net people manage to hire any new netadmins. |
| 20:25.04 | rsimpkins | If you trippled my salery I wouldn't work there. |
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| 20:27.49 | unum | I don't think people should have a right to black mail their employer |
| 20:32.50 | rsimpkins | unum: What did Mr. Childs want any way? What was he trying to get by blackmail? |
| 20:32.59 | rsimpkins | unum: Did he want money or something? |
| 20:35.01 | fungus | He didn't "blackmail" his employer in the sense that he wanted something. |
| 20:35.30 | fungus | He withheld passwords until a capable/trusted admin could be installed to replace him. |
| 20:35.47 | fungus | He didn't trust existing admins or his old boss. |
| 20:36.48 | unum | so he demanded a preson he approved of be hired |
| 20:37.30 | fungus | Yes. I'm guessing he had some psychological problems. :) |
| 20:37.55 | unum | actually he demanded that the mayor meet with him before he would divulge the passwords |
| 20:38.00 | unum | that's sounds like blackmail to me |
| 20:38.11 | fugue88 | Security through insecurity. |
| 20:38.17 | fungus | blackmail involves getting something in return |
| 20:38.30 | unum | he got a meeting with the mayor |
| 20:38.43 | unum | it may have been a stupid demand, but it was a demand |
| 20:39.16 | fungus | it was a demand because he would only trust the mayor. but the mayor refused to see him. it wasn't for his benefit (in his mind). |
| 20:39.43 | fungus | He was just a paranoid, conceited asshole |
| 20:41.14 | fungus | From everything I read he seemed to have some justifications for his belief that his other admins and ex-boss were not trustable. But his actions were totally overboard. |
| 20:41.35 | sjansen | http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129198775&ps=cprs |
| 20:41.36 | unum | and I think his actions were criminal |
| 20:42.30 | sjansen | Criminal? Perhaps. Four years in prison criminal? Two years in prison before even being found guilty criminal? NO! |
| 20:42.35 | fungus | criminal how? He didn't disrupt any activities at all. |
| 20:43.12 | fungus | Perhaps a 90 day psych evaluation would be in order. |
| 20:43.36 | fungus | But then don't most network admins need one normally? :P |
| 20:43.48 | sjansen | thinks unum should get four years in prison for wanting #utah to read what he thinks |
| 20:46.19 | unum | four years is extreme, but that's true of most computer related crimes |
| 20:47.23 | unum | suprised he didn't got for an insanity plea |
| 20:47.35 | fungus | lol |
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| 21:14.24 | JoshH | terry's sentence was definitely too harsh |
| 21:15.11 | JoshH | it doesn't really seem like a criminal issue |
| 21:15.25 | JoshH | but i also don't feel too bad for him |
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| 21:27.48 | TodPunk | On the bright side, he's really not missing out on much social happiness. |
| 21:27.48 | sjansen | ~bless ImageMagick |
| 21:27.49 | ibot | ImageMagick: Live long and prosper! \//, |
| 21:27.57 | sjansen | ~ImageMagick++ |
| 21:29.37 | jsmith | sjansen: What, you haven't coverted over to GraphicsMagick yet? |
| 21:29.43 | jsmith | s/coverted/converted/ |
| 21:29.52 | jsmith | ~shame sjansen |
| 21:29.52 | ibot | Shame on you sjansen! |
| 21:32.24 | sjansen | tucks his tail between his legs |
| 21:32.34 | sjansen | pauses to wonder when he grew a tail |
| 21:32.39 | sjansen | goes on with life |
| 21:33.38 | eightyeight | wonders why graphicsmagick felt the need to fork |
| 21:34.16 | sinuhe | wonders the same thing. ImageMagick is the awesome |
| 21:34.31 | sjansen | Does it have the equivalent of IM's /usr/bin/compare? |
| 21:37.29 | sinuhe | http://marc.info/?l=imagemagick-developer&m=104777007831767&w=2 |
| 21:41.15 | sinuhe | http://marc.info/?l=imagemagick-developer&m=104777288700846&w=2 |
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| 21:59.37 | jsmith | sjansen: "gm compare", if I recall |
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| 23:33.44 | rsimpkins | Oh, terry had a record. |
| 23:33.58 | rsimpkins | 20 years ago he was convicted of felony theft. |
| 23:34.07 | rsimpkins | 20+ years |
| 23:35.41 | rsimpkins | "He may also be required to foot California's bill for attempting to regain control of its network, which totals $900,000 USD." << only in california. |
| 23:35.59 | rsimpkins | That's $75,000 a day. |
| 23:36.25 | ksaisjja | That's pretty good to change some passwords. I should up my rate. lol |
| 23:40.03 | rsimpkins | "The damage is still being assessed, but authorities say undoing his denial of access to other system administrators could cost millions of dollars." |
| 23:40.12 | rsimpkins | It is interesting going back and reading the old stories. |
| 23:40.20 | ksaisjja | yeah |
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| 23:41.20 | ksaisjja | I should start a US Government password reset service. Apparently I can get $75,000-$100,000 a day for it. It shouldn't take more than 2-4 weeks per site. |
| 23:41.21 | ksaisjja | lol |
| 23:42.22 | rsimpkins | Yeah, the contracting firm that got that gig must have been laughing all the way to the bank. |
| 23:46.02 | rsimpkins | Under the three strikes law, if Mr. Childs so much as looks cross-eyed at a cop, he could be going away for the rest of forever. |
| 23:47.30 | ksaisjja | That's just sick |
| 23:47.50 | ksaisjja | Because people are still just as paranoid of technology as they are of terrorist attack. lol |
| 23:49.01 | rsimpkins | I think the message is pretty clear, move out of California. That place is crazy. |
| 23:49.35 | rsimpkins | I guess we could argue only crazy people are left in CA. |
| 23:58.07 | eightyeight | same could be said of utah |
| 23:58.11 | eightyeight | crazy mormons |