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| 02:12.40 | Reilithion | Any scripting or gconf geniuses hanging around? |
| 02:13.30 | bonez2046 | any scanning gurus around? I need to figure out how to scan in one move.. several pages.. without having to manually scan each. I have tried xsane-image, simple scan.. can't get either to work |
| 02:15.27 | fozzmoo_ | xsane has a batch scan mode. |
| 02:15.52 | Reilithion | I adapted a small script that changes my desktop wallpaper. It works when run from, for instance, a console running within X. But if I try to run it from cron, it complains loudly. "Failed to contact configuration server", "Not running within active session" |
| 02:15.53 | bonez2046 | fozzmoo: well, to save my life, i can't figure it out.. got any tips? |
| 02:15.55 | fozzmoo | So you can do multiple-page documents. |
| 02:16.16 | bonez2046 | fozzmoo: exactly... bingo.. I want to scan multipage documents.. |
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| 02:16.26 | bonez2046 | am I running the wrong sane front end? |
| 02:16.37 | fozzmoo | http://www.xsane.org/doc/sane-xsane-multipage-doc.html |
| 02:26.26 | bonez2046 | fozzmoo: so, if I understand this.. I have to provide a COUNT to xsane and then it will scan however many pages I tell it.. right? |
| 02:27.02 | fozzmoo | I've never done that... I've always just scanned until I was done and then told it to end the multipage project. |
| 02:29.10 | bonez2046 | that's just the thing, I put it on Multipage and yet it will only scan one page, then stop.. |
| 02:29.19 | bonez2046 | it won't recognize .. hmm more pages, keep scanning |
| 02:41.15 | bonez2046 | and yet, when I hook it up to window.. it scans just fine that way.. with whatever s/w is running on windows |
| 02:47.57 | bonez2046 | this is where I find the thing about multipages and counting > ADF-Pages: |
| 02:48.00 | bonez2046 | Select the number of pages that shall be scanned. You can use this with an automatic document feeder (ADF) or by changing the papers by hand while the scanhead moves back. |
| 02:48.07 | bonez2046 | from taht help file |
| 02:49.07 | bonez2046 | from that help file |
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| 06:27.44 | afr0beatz | this place is dead |
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| 15:22.52 | eightyeight | ~rlart |
| 15:22.53 | ibot | changes eco's permissions to 0777 and tells the world |
| 15:28.40 | shalkie | Woot! Utopia is going to start building out again in Murray in a couple months! |
| 15:28.50 | fugue88 | Yay! |
| 15:29.10 | shalkie | dances the dance of high speed, qwest free, happiness. |
| 15:29.51 | JoshH | shalkie: welcome to the club, soon |
| 15:32.01 | eightyeight | ~lart ogden for not approving utopia |
| 15:32.01 | ibot | overclocks ogden until ogden burns out for not approving utopia |
| 15:32.15 | sjansen | shalkie: You didn't hear? There were difficulties arranging the financing and right of way. As part of the compromise you and your immediate neighbors are permanently banned from receiving service. |
| 15:32.54 | sjansen | shalkie: But it could have been worse. Originally the city was demanding that a giant Faraday cage be installed over your house. |
| 15:34.40 | eightyeight | as long as you don't touch the outside of the cage, you should be good |
| 15:35.00 | JoshH | i was the last install done in murray before they decided to focus on brigham |
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| 15:42.44 | JoshH | http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/114101-tea-party-groups-come-out-against-net-neutrality |
| 15:42.49 | JoshH | sighs |
| 15:44.15 | shalkie | sjansen: You mock, but that is partially correct. I have a Utopia utility box approx. a block away, but to get to my house they have to take a long route across qwest polls. At one point I was point blank told it was because qwest operated the utility poles and they wouldn't run the the fiber for utopia... |
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| 15:45.43 | TodPunk | I think Utopia really needs to just finish ONE CITY before they move on, because really, that's all anyone thinks about Utopia anymore "They're in some parts of some cities, and now they're never going to finish" |
| 15:45.47 | JoshH | ya, the qwest pole issue was a really huge hindrance for utopia |
| 15:46.40 | JoshH | they were too focused in cities like payson in the past, trying to get the federal rural service money, which they never got |
| 15:47.45 | eightyeight | i'm actually losing faith in utopia |
| 15:48.01 | eightyeight | planned cities have been planned for ages, and implemented cities are only partially implemented |
| 15:48.13 | eightyeight | and little to no progress is being made elsewhere |
| 15:48.51 | eightyeight | while comcast might suck, they're providing me impressive bandwidth, minimal downtime, and good customer service |
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| 15:50.27 | unum | eightyeight: your customer service exeperience is apparantly different than mine |
| 15:50.50 | shalkie | My experience, years ago, with ComCast was mixed. Their data service rocked. Everything else about ComCast sucked big time. I refuse to pay them another penny. |
| 15:50.52 | unum | comcast is BY FAR the worst custmore service experience I have ever had |
| 15:51.20 | unum | I have never had customer services issues approaching the level of comcast bad anywhere |
| 15:51.27 | JoshH | eightyeight: it's because they're pretty much broke now |
| 15:51.31 | unum | not even close |
| 15:51.51 | JoshH | and no other cities that signed up want to wait until murray is completely finished before they get anything |
| 15:51.55 | JoshH | they tried to build it "fairly" |
| 15:52.14 | shalkie | I talked to one guy where they made him travel back to the state he just moved from to return a cable unit. |
| 15:52.28 | unum | they're broke because they had to spend much of their start up capital suing qwest |
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| 15:52.54 | JoshH | that, and they wasted what little money they had in payson, then never got the rural utility service funding |
| 15:53.28 | eightyeight | i've never had bad customer service with comcast |
| 15:53.47 | eightyeight | the few times i've called them, they've been professional, helpful and timely |
| 15:53.59 | TodPunk | unum: I honestly think most customer service issues people have with Comcast is because of poor expectations on the customer's part. They expect Comcast CS to be knowledgable and the end-all be-all of their concern, and for technical people, they aren't even in the ballpark of competent. They're just the people there to tell customers to reboot their modem. |
| 15:54.36 | unum | I called comcast and asked what I had to do to transfer an account(that's paid for by the hoa) to new tennants, they told me to come down and bring my id and they will be able to transfer the sercive. they never told me I had to return the digitial converters and they would issue new ones |
| 15:54.53 | unum | so now I have to drive back over to my rental get the converters and drive down to their office |
| 15:54.55 | JoshH | the last time i had comcast quite a few years ago, i asked a question about port blocking, and the girl said "yes, we use nntp servers here" |
| 15:55.11 | unum | they twiced unplugged my sercive and told my roommate I was stealing it |
| 15:55.29 | unum | after the second time that service rep put a lock on it |
| 15:56.12 | unum | when I transferred my account they set up a new one and failed to cancel the first one and kept my automated billing running |
| 15:56.26 | unum | then when I talked to them about it they told me I had to pay on the second one and they would refund the first one |
| 15:56.29 | unum | took six months |
| 15:56.33 | unum | to get my money back |
| 15:56.56 | unum | they also charged me a $100 set up fee for the new account(it was already up and running by the time the tech came by) |
| 15:57.04 | TodPunk | isn't touching that one |
| 15:57.32 | unum | so are you saying my expectation that they NOT unplug my serivice when I was paid up and current was too high? |
| 15:57.35 | eightyeight | i've never had to deal with moving accounts around. the times i've called were to confirm outages, and get some static on my television fixed |
| 15:57.38 | unum | I mean seriously |
| 15:57.39 | unum | they suck |
| 15:57.46 | eightyeight | i even got on their ipv6 trial with minimal effort |
| 15:58.09 | unum | oh they unplugged my tv serious when I discontinued my cable service |
| 15:58.15 | unum | even though the tv service was paid in full |
| 15:58.30 | JoshH | i love directv |
| 15:58.39 | TodPunk | My only poor resolution with them was I couldn't get a DHCP address working on my sonicwall through their modem. Ended up using a buffalo router. |
| 15:59.01 | JoshH | ewww, sonicwall |
| 15:59.14 | TodPunk | <3 sonicwall |
| 15:59.20 | unum | I never had any trouble when I was in logan |
| 15:59.37 | eightyeight | unum: who was your service provider in logan? |
| 15:59.46 | unum | I think all my problems started when I got a business account |
| 15:59.55 | unum | it was comcast there(eventually) |
| 16:00.07 | unum | I did have trouble early on because they had too many people on one node |
| 16:00.08 | eightyeight | that could be. i don't have a business account. just a personal one |
| 16:00.35 | TodPunk | My friend had a business account for a couple years, never was a problem. |
| 16:00.46 | unum | but both times I've moved it's been one foul up after an other |
| 16:00.53 | TodPunk | plenty of DirectPointe customers also had a business account. Worked fine for them. |
| 16:00.57 | eightyeight | my ip address never changes unless i lose power to my cable modem, and the dhcp lease expires. i rarely have ping issues. good throughput. i'm happy |
| 16:01.34 | eightyeight | utopia might be a utopia, but unless i move into a neighborhood that it currently is installed, it's a pipe dream |
| 16:01.38 | unum | the big thing is you're using smart house |
| 16:01.55 | unum | a lot of places block email coming from residential ips |
| 16:02.01 | JoshH | eightyeight: what city are you in? |
| 16:02.05 | eightyeight | JoshH: ogden |
| 16:02.17 | unum | but I quit using them for my server because they went down so often |
| 16:02.25 | eightyeight | unum: yeah. i've had that problem. but i don't run a mail server out of my house, so no biggie. |
| 16:02.27 | unum | I had have several hours of outage at least once a month |
| 16:02.33 | JoshH | that's the thing with comcast |
| 16:02.35 | eightyeight | i hate running email servers, actually. too big of a pita |
| 16:02.39 | JoshH | if you want to do geeky stuff with your service |
| 16:02.40 | JoshH | you really can't |
| 16:02.48 | JoshH | if all you want is for your netflix streams to work well |
| 16:02.49 | JoshH | it's fine |
| 16:02.52 | unum | ya one of the main things I wanted to do was run a mail server |
| 16:03.30 | eightyeight | i have no problem running ssh and web servers. with a 2Mbps upload, that's more than enough for a few blogs and random text in irssi/mutt |
| 16:03.47 | eightyeight | i'll stick with gmail for email though |
| 16:04.09 | JoshH | these days, since everyone and their dog has a vps or something somewhere, it's not that big of a deal |
| 16:04.55 | unum | the higher download was nice for system updates since I was running sid |
| 16:05.01 | unum | but I hardly doing anything at home anymore |
| 16:05.16 | eightyeight | i keep a local repository for that |
| 16:05.28 | TodPunk | Comcast: We're great for most users, just not the ones that care about the bits. That's what xmission is for. |
| 16:05.40 | JoshH | ya |
| 16:05.51 | JoshH | comcast only cares about catering to the normal people |
| 16:05.58 | JoshH | and they do that well enough |
| 16:06.16 | TodPunk | I use Comcast for my Dad, and xmission for my house. It works out great. |
| 16:06.47 | unum | I still wish the wouldn't disconnect me when I'm still paying for service |
| 16:07.01 | fugue88 | I got a business account with Comcast (only non-wireless avail here), much better customer service than residential, and apparently they don't play games with traffic for business customers. |
| 16:07.03 | JoshH | unum: to be fair, your anecdote doesn't seem very typical |
| 16:07.28 | fugue88 | But still, I greatly prefer the xmission I had in SLC. |
| 16:07.40 | fugue88 | And I run my own mail server. No pita here. |
| 16:07.53 | eightyeight | meh |
| 16:08.00 | fugue88 | :) |
| 16:08.13 | fugue88 | eightyeight: Which server(s) did you try? |
| 16:08.30 | eightyeight | some don't mind it. i understand. i'd rather not keep up-to-date on security patches for sucha vulnerable piece of software, keep on top of spamhouse, greylisting, blah, blah, blah |
| 16:08.43 | eightyeight | running a mail server is work. i'd rather be lazy. :( |
| 16:08.44 | fugue88 | I'm on exim with a custom greylisting ACL. It's practically maintenance-free. |
| 16:08.52 | eightyeight | s/(/)/ |
| 16:08.54 | JoshH | greylisting is ok for small scale |
| 16:09.02 | JoshH | if you don't mind waiting |
| 16:09.20 | fugue88 | Don't mind waiting for that first e-mail from a new domain... |
| 16:09.25 | eightyeight | fugue88: postfix was my mta of choice |
| 16:09.29 | fugue88 | (Or, from a new host, that is) |
| 16:09.47 | eightyeight | fugue88: i can admin it just fine. i'd just rather not. :) |
| 16:10.14 | fugue88 | eightyeight: I'm not saying it's about whether you *can* admin it, just about how *much* admin it takes. |
| 16:11.07 | fugue88 | qmail is an amazing system, but that definitely requires more intervention during upgrades and stuff, for example. |
| 16:11.11 | eightyeight | fugue88: fair enough. it's more admin than i have time for. even if i have 1 spam email per month, it's enough to drive me batty, and figure out how to tighten it even harder |
| 16:11.28 | TodPunk | fugue88: I think his point is, does it take more than 5 minutes a month? Then it's not worth it when Google Apps will do it for free instantly |
| 16:11.51 | JoshH | ya, google apps basically ended the home server thing |
| 16:11.59 | eightyeight | and, i don't have to worry about my ip being blacklisted (which, thanks to comcast, i get to deal with) |
| 16:12.01 | JoshH | mail servers anyway |
| 16:12.10 | fugue88 | TodPunk: Understood about how much time it takes. I'm claiming it doesn't need to take that much time to do it yourself. |
| 16:12.42 | eightyeight | anyway, i wasn't looking for an argument, just running a personal mta isn't for me. that's all |
| 16:13.02 | eightyeight | to each their own |
| 16:13.07 | fugue88 | Sorry, not trying to argue, just to show it's possible to DIY and still not have to spend much time on it,. |
| 16:13.39 | eightyeight | understood |
| 16:13.40 | TodPunk | There was a project that was win-only called hmailserver, and that was pretty nice. |
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| 16:14.26 | TodPunk | You know what else google needs to do to save me work? Make a DNS/NS hosting service so I can admin my domain properly. |
| 16:14.40 | TodPunk | because BIND is a huge annoyance |
| 16:14.59 | goozbach | I use google apps for my domain to host gmail and calendar |
| 16:15.08 | goozbach | but I don't get the mail from it via imap |
| 16:15.22 | TodPunk | and GoDaddy is fine if all you want to do is a records and cnames, but if you want to do like roundrobins or something, well, they fail |
| 16:15.25 | goozbach | I use fetchmail to pull all of my email down to my linode, and use imap to there |
| 16:16.36 | levi | I was using EveryDNS to do my DNS, but that's going away in December as they got bought by DynDNS. |
| 16:16.52 | unum | I just have all my email go directly to my linode |
| 16:16.57 | levi | Though, apparently I could make a one-time donation and get a DynDNS account. |
| 16:16.59 | unum | I've been VERY happy with linode |
| 16:17.26 | goozbach | unum: I am as well |
| 16:17.35 | levi | TodPunk: There are a number of free DNS services even though EveryDNS is going away. Some will do round robin, too. |
| 16:17.49 | eightyeight | i've heard good things about linode. i've never used them myself |
| 16:17.55 | goozbach | I get the best of both worlds however if I push everything through gmail first (no-admin spam filtiring being number one) |
| 16:18.07 | levi | I have all my email going through gmail, too. |
| 16:24.13 | TehLaser | Huh. Got an ad in the mail for WiMax in SLC. |
| 16:24.21 | TehLaser | Anyone use that? |
| 16:25.15 | TehLaser | clear-somethingorother. |
| 16:26.48 | levi | I got that ad, too. Didn't read it, though. |
| 16:27.01 | unum | eightyeight: it's month to month and they prorate you |
| 16:27.03 | levi | My father in law asked me to pass on any info I got about it, though. |
| 16:27.12 | unum | so if you want to give you a try it may not even cost you $20 |
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| 16:30.57 | sjansen | runs his own mta, barely spends any time on it, and loves being able to create completely unique addresses quickly |
| 16:31.21 | sjansen | Although, to be honest, I've only had to revoke a few aliases because the company lied and started spamming it. |
| 16:32.11 | sjansen | ~love Linode |
| 16:32.12 | ibot | If you love Linode so much, why don't you marry it? (oooooh) |
| 16:32.35 | unum | because polygamy is illegal |
| 16:32.52 | sjansen | loves him some linode too |
| 16:33.50 | blendmaster1024 | unum, it is? O.o |
| 16:33.51 | unum | "do you want feature x?" "no, I don't need it." "feature x still doesn't work" |
| 16:33.58 | TodPunk | I love linode, but for $130/month I'm hosted in Fibernet's colo and I have more resources available to me than I can get with Linode, which is useful. I don't think I could go back to a VPS at this point. |
| 16:34.22 | blendmaster1024 | last time I checked, the government just doesnt recognize it - that doesn't make it illegal, just means it won't be, well, government-recognized |
| 16:35.02 | TodPunk | Yeah, it's illegal |
| 16:35.25 | eightyeight | last i checked, it's not only illegal, it's a felony |
| 16:35.27 | TodPunk | if you have an active marriage license with two individuals, you have broken the law. |
| 16:36.06 | TehLaser | actually, common-law marriages can by illegal polygamy in Utah. |
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| 16:36.18 | unum | they generally don't proscute it except as a secondary offense |
| 16:36.18 | TodPunk | That's not to say you can't live with and have sex with multiple individuals legally. That's toally legal. As long as they're of consenting age. That's sort of the key that most newspaper fodder doesn't get. |
| 16:36.24 | TehLaser | So if you act and intend to be married to more than one spouse, and live together, that's a felony. |
| 16:36.26 | unum | TehLaser: that's a good point I hadn't thought about that |
| 16:36.51 | TehLaser | (though probably not something that would be upheld in court) |
| 16:36.59 | blendmaster1024 | TodPunk, well exactly |
| 16:37.13 | TodPunk | and common-law marriage doesn't happen unless you're not already married, I though. |
| 16:37.16 | TodPunk | *thought |
| 16:37.48 | unum | they don't typically prosecuty polygamy except as a secondary offense |
| 16:37.51 | blendmaster1024 | anyway, I guess I shouldn't have pursued the point :P |
| 16:38.02 | TodPunk | plus, you have to ASK for it to be recognized, just like getting a marriage license. |
| 16:38.09 | TehLaser | The Utah statues on common law marriage actually explicity state this. That even though being legally unable to marry a person means common law marriage doesn't occur, being legally married to someone else does *not* prevent you from being common-law married for the purposes of being guilty of bigamy. |
| 16:38.41 | TodPunk | http://www.utcourts.gov/howto/marriage/#commonlaw |
| 16:39.15 | blendmaster1024 | huh. personally, I don't think it should be illegal - people should be free to do it since all participating parties have to agree anyway |
| 16:39.18 | unum | having a statue seems to defeat the "common law" :) |
| 16:39.36 | blendmaster1024 | it just shouldn't be government-recognizable |
| 16:39.56 | unum | the courts would probably agree |
| 16:40.09 | unum | which is why they don't prosecute it as a primary offense |
| 16:40.24 | blendmaster1024 | ah. |
| 16:40.45 | unum | I'm not sure what the reference to newspaper was implying earlier |
| 16:40.57 | blendmaster1024 | anyway, back to writing :D |
| 16:41.04 | unum | all the article I've read seem to have clearly understood the law |
| 16:41.16 | unum | though I don't read out of state papers |
| 16:41.40 | unum | hmmmmmm |
| 16:41.57 | unum | my computer doesn't want to read this cd but I can clearly see that data has been written to it |
| 16:42.06 | unum | cdrdao tells me that it can't read the toc |
| 16:42.25 | TodPunk | unum: newspaper fodder, as in, the people that get branded in headlines as polygamists and what a horrible travesty they are (even though they are usually arrested for statutory rape charges and the like, nothing to do with polygamy) |
| 16:42.37 | TodPunk | the news LOVES that sort of hype |
| 16:43.03 | TehLaser | TodPunk: well, except that "nothing to do with polygamy" isn't entirely true. |
| 16:43.17 | unum | sltrib actually had a very nice article on a group of consenting adult practicing polygamy here in salt lake a while back |
| 16:43.33 | TehLaser | The people who get sensationalized usually use religious polygamy as a justification. |
| 16:43.43 | JoshH | i love how polygamy is actually a "category" on the trib site |
| 16:43.44 | TodPunk | true |
| 16:43.48 | unum | and they are usually charged with child rape and polygamy as a secondary charge |
| 16:44.12 | JoshH | i wonder if the new polygamy reality tv show will be popular |
| 16:44.25 | TodPunk | ugh, seriously? |
| 16:44.44 | TodPunk | is so glad he got away from TV before reality shows became popular |
| 16:44.45 | unum | but yes they do have more articles about those being charged with child rape as part of the polygamst marriage(becase they are usually a second marriage) but those are current court case |
| 16:44.49 | unum | s |
| 16:46.33 | JoshH | TodPunk: ya, starting on tlc soon |
| 16:46.42 | JoshH | some anonymous utah family that is supposed to be pretty normal |
| 16:46.53 | JoshH | 3 wives, courting a 4th, iirc |
| 16:47.46 | TodPunk | see, polygamy is plausible in thought as an abstract, but when you get into details like courting WHILE married to others, it gets weird. |
| 16:48.23 | TodPunk | I hope it's not popular. I see bad social experiments as a result of popularity. |
| 16:49.04 | TehLaser | Huh, it doesn't seem to matter anyway. If you're legally married to one person and cohabitate with another in a marriage-like-way, that's bigamy in Utah. |
| 16:49.09 | unum | I think the possible 4th wife is friends with the current wives |
| 16:49.19 | unum | just got out a bad marriage |
| 16:50.16 | JoshH | i just hope the show hurts romney's chances somehow, someway :P |
| 16:50.28 | TehLaser | Though if you never marry anyone, and consistantly insist that you are not married to avoid common-law marriage, polyamory might be legal. |
| 16:50.47 | TehLaser | well, cohabitative polyamory anyway. |
| 16:50.54 | JoshH | it doesn't matter anyway, utah doesn't go after polygamists simply for polygamy, ever |
| 16:51.11 | JoshH | i don't think AZ does either |
| 16:51.15 | JoshH | nor canada |
| 16:51.27 | JoshH | they have to be accused of abusing the kids |
| 16:51.28 | TehLaser | JoshH: it occasionally does matter. One judge was fired for living thus. Not prosecuted, but disbarred for openly and flagrantly breaking the law. |
| 16:51.44 | unum | I think romney being a two faced weasel will hurt his chances more than the polygamy show |
| 16:51.53 | JoshH | well, if you're a judge, you have a higher standard when it comes to obeying the law |
| 16:51.59 | TodPunk | TehLaser: I still think you are incorrect in that. Bigamy is STILL defined as multiple legal marriages, and you still have to /ask/ for a marriage to be recognized for utah common-law marriages. |
| 16:52.03 | TehLaser | "illegal but never prosecuted" still causes harm to people. |
| 16:52.25 | JoshH | sure |
| 16:52.35 | unum | TodPunk: but the statues read that you can be prosecuted for polygamy if you are cohabbitating |
| 16:52.43 | TodPunk | *statutes ? |
| 16:52.53 | JoshH | if something is illegal, and you're a judge, cop, etc, you better not do it openly if you care about your job |
| 16:52.54 | unum | ya what ever, you know what I meant |
| 16:53.24 | TehLaser | TodPunk: "A person is guilty of bigamy when, knowing he has a husband or wife, the person purports to marry another person or cohabits with another person." Utah Code Ann. § 76-7-101(1) |
| 16:54.21 | TodPunk | OK, that's unrelated to common-law marriages then |
| 16:54.42 | TodPunk | unum: I thought I did, I just wanted to clarify. You used the same word twice, and I became unsure. Sorry, man. |
| 16:54.43 | TehLaser | yeah. That's why I said "Huh, it doesn't seem to matter anyway." :) |
| 16:55.08 | TodPunk | ah, I didn't know that was directed at our part of the conversation. I thought it was for elsewhere. |
| 16:55.57 | TodPunk | JoshH: technically, anything that's not viewed well publicly should be avoided if you're a judge/copy/mayor/whatever. Like going to a stripper bar is perfectly legal, but you can totally get fired for it. |
| 16:56.16 | JoshH | true |
| 16:56.17 | TehLaser | Of course there's also "A married person commits adultery when he voluntarily has sexual intercourse with a person other than his spouse." and "Any unmarried person who shall voluntarily engage in sexual intercourse with another is guilty of fornication." |
| 16:56.32 | unum | ya |
| 16:56.32 | TehLaser | (76-7-103/4) |
| 16:56.50 | JoshH | i would oppose a firing for something legal like going to a strip club, but for somethign that's actually illegal but just not normally enforced, i don't care |
| 16:57.08 | TodPunk | TehLaser: So it's full of things that it's whining about that are perfectly legal? |
| 16:57.09 | unum | I hate unenforced laws |
| 16:57.21 | JoshH | i hate most laws period |
| 16:58.26 | unum | I'm not a libertarian |
| 16:58.35 | unum | I'm ok with laws that make you mow your lawn |
| 16:58.43 | Gate | unum: fascist |
| 16:58.49 | TehLaser | TodPunk: no, those are all illegal. Technically. |
| 16:59.06 | TehLaser | TodPunk: unconstitutionally so, but illegal. |
| 16:59.17 | TodPunk | huh, apparently the ACLU is all up in Utah's face about the cohabitation restrictions |
| 16:59.40 | TodPunk | not that this means much, because it's the ACLU, but interesting nonetheless |
| 16:59.49 | unum | most states have these sort of laws but they never try to enforce them |
| 16:59.54 | unum | texas tried a while back :) |
| 17:00.25 | TodPunk | unum: I'm ok with such a law if it's well zoned. One should be able to choose a living space where you don't HAVE to mow your lawn. |
| 17:00.26 | unum | I remember about 15 years ago some prosecutor in idaho tried to prosecute a pregnant teenager |
| 17:00.29 | unum | not sure what happened |
| 17:00.42 | TodPunk | oh, Idaho |
| 17:00.47 | TodPunk | how we love you |
| 17:01.07 | unum | what ticks me off is my brother going to the state to try and prevent my city from having the laws we agree on |
| 17:01.40 | TodPunk | is he part of your city? |
| 17:01.53 | unum | we're not even in the same county |
| 17:02.31 | TodPunk | then I don't think he should have a right to represent your city in any way. If he's just doing it about your city, that is. If he's doing it for his city, I support this. |
| 17:02.33 | unum | I'm more progressive so I move to a more progressive city |
| 17:02.55 | unum | he wants to be more libertarian he can move to lavirkin |
| 17:03.21 | TodPunk | If I was going to be libertarian, I'd rather move to a city one can pronounce. |
| 17:03.21 | unum | the problem is we have a lot of crazy state reps/sens who like to bully the cities |
| 17:03.28 | unum | sen stephenson is the worse |
| 17:03.56 | unum | he talked about making city libaries charge room rentals |
| 17:04.44 | TodPunk | Well, what ELSE are they going to do with their time? We have less people than the city San Jose. they seem to do fine without all the layers of government we have in place to manage our people. I'd think our Senators would get really bored. |
| 17:05.03 | TodPunk | Thank heavens our governors are crazy. They'd be driven mad with all the lack of anything to do if they weren't. |
| 17:05.50 | Gate | Damned city ordinances making me weed my yard... |
| 17:06.02 | unum | and won't let me keep my car on my lawn |
| 17:06.19 | unum | I'm going to get it fixed next year when the child support payment comes through |
| 17:07.25 | TodPunk | I'm on disability, I can't mow my lawn, so you should have to pay someone to do that if you want it done.... </my_trash_uncle> |
| 17:11.48 | eightyeight | i don't understand the car-on-lawn thing |
| 17:12.22 | eightyeight | here in ogden, you have to have your car off the street during winter months, or you could get a ticket, because the snow plow will have to plow around you |
| 17:13.02 | eightyeight | but, if you have >2 cars, and a single-car driveway that is only two-deep, what are you supposed to do with the 3rd? stack it on top? |
| 17:13.24 | levi | Sell it, I suppose. |
| 17:13.46 | eightyeight | "sorry sis. you have to sell your car if you want to spend the night here." |
| 17:13.57 | levi | I sometimes have to do the car shuffle thing during the winter. Very annoying. |
| 17:14.13 | TodPunk | eightyeight: I think your city is silly |
| 17:14.21 | eightyeight | i won't argue |
| 17:16.29 | TodPunk | in orem, if you're in the street, they just blow the snow onto your car. It's fine. |
| 17:16.43 | eightyeight | thankfully, i have an elderly neighbor that no longer drives with a driveway that can hold four cars. they're fine with us parking there if need be |
| 17:16.49 | TodPunk | Mostly because we're not expecting them to plow where we park, just where we're going to DRIVE |
| 17:16.59 | eightyeight | yup |
| 17:21.39 | TodPunk | JoshH: Big Love? |
| 17:22.21 | JoshH | big love is a drama, not reality |
| 17:23.03 | JoshH | and it's on hbo, not tlc |
| 17:23.16 | JoshH | and it's good, which this reality show almost certainly won't be |
| 17:24.08 | TodPunk | I haven't seen it, so I wouldn't know =cP |
| 17:26.15 | eightyeight | JoshH: what's the name? |
| 17:27.01 | JoshH | sister wives |
| 17:27.14 | JoshH | http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogs/tv/50068126-63/family-kate-brown-jon.html.csp |
| 17:27.24 | *** join/#utah sinuhe (~sinuhe@206.40.200.147) |
| 17:27.27 | JoshH | another article said the family was staying anonymous, but that article has their names |
| 17:28.49 | JoshH | i note that those sister wives aren't nearly as hideous as most polygamous women |
| 17:28.57 | JoshH | maybe it's different outside of hildale |
| 17:29.26 | JoshH | not that they're actually hot or anything |
| 17:30.46 | TodPunk | they're just gussied up, as television does |
| 17:32.11 | JoshH | tries to imagine having 15 kids at home, and can't |
| 17:33.53 | TodPunk | I have enough problems with 4. I'm not a kid guy. I also have no idea how you could afford three apartments on even a fairly good salary. If you ever get out of work, what on earth do you do then? Man. |
| 17:33.57 | unum | but you have 3 wives to help with them |
| 17:34.10 | TodPunk | Like I said earlier, the details are where it gets weird. |
| 17:34.21 | JoshH | i have 2, and handle it fine... but i definitely wouldn't want to add more to my workload |
| 17:34.52 | JoshH | i like being able to fit the whole family in a sedan |
| 17:34.53 | TodPunk | SQL question: SELECT count(fi.`FILEINSTANCEID`), count(h.`hostid`) AS avgFiles FROM `fileInstance` fi, `host` h; |
| 17:35.07 | TodPunk | Both counts are returning the same number. I can't figure out why. |
| 17:35.10 | eightyeight | just saw the a great facebook status update: "I never said you'd be easy, I only said it would be worth it. -Jesus Christ" |
| 17:35.17 | eightyeight | yeah. it's headed to failbook.com |
| 17:35.36 | TodPunk | eightyeight: good man. It's the responsible thing to do. |
| 17:36.16 | unum | I'm easy, my wife doesn't even have to buy me dinner |
| 17:46.33 | shalkie | wtf? How can someone take kids and just drop them off in the mall and leave to punish the mother? http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50102596-76/police-babies-months-abandoning.html.csp |
| 17:46.53 | unum | oh ya I read that this morning |
| 17:47.01 | unum | it's stories like that I have to hide from my wife |
| 18:02.54 | sjansen | http://blogs.everycity.co.uk/alasdair/2010/08/opensolaris-is-now-officially-dead-rip/ |
| 18:07.45 | shalkie | Heh. India is demanding access to encrypted blackberry traffic. The qoute I just heard said that they would provide it as long as their competitors were required too. |
| 18:11.09 | JoshH | unum: the wedding is a done deal now eh? |
| 18:29.34 | *** join/#utah sinuhe (~sinuhe@206.40.200.150) |
| 18:30.01 | unum | JoshH: yep |
| 18:30.06 | unum | four weeks ago today |
| 18:30.15 | unum | so how do you do a dd of a cddrive |
| 18:30.18 | unum | I count mount it |
| 18:50.59 | TodPunk | unum: dd /dev/cdrom0? |
| 18:52.37 | unum | works on a different cd..... |
| 18:55.58 | sjansen | unum: There's two different programs I'd try. dd_rescue and ddrescue. |
| 18:56.35 | sjansen | Assuming I don't misunderstand what you're trying to do. |
| 18:57.11 | unum | thanks |
| 18:57.15 | TodPunk | "Solaris is the #1 Enterprise Operating System." Ahahahahah. AHAHAHahahahah. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA |
| 19:01.46 | TodPunk | oh thank you, sjansen, this leaked memo is hilarious. |
| 19:11.35 | unum | weird it looks like the cd has been used cdrdao even says there's one track but nothing will read it |
| 19:12.16 | TodPunk | maybe it's not closed properly? |
| 19:19.57 | *** join/#utah bmidgley2 (~brad@c-76-27-89-77.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 19:20.36 | *** join/#utah bmidgley2 (~brad@c-76-27-89-77.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 19:30.20 | *** join/#utah toofer (~toofer@fw.oremut02.us.wh.verio.net) |
| 19:33.29 | toofer | Has anyone in here done the RCHE? |
| 19:34.08 | TehLaser | I wonder if my wife "married" her girlfriend if I could accurately call her my sister wife. :) |
| 19:36.47 | goozbach | toofer: yup |
| 19:37.41 | eightyeight | TodPunk: yes |
| 19:40.28 | fugue88 | TodPunk: Looks like your SQL is doing a cross join, so you're getting number of rows in fi times number of rows in h, as both results. |
| 19:40.38 | eightyeight | meh |
| 19:40.43 | eightyeight | toofer: yes |
| 19:40.43 | eightyeight | heh |
| 19:41.07 | toofer | I was trying to find on the gurulabs site what course that might be. |
| 19:41.40 | eightyeight | guru labs no longer teaches for red hat. you can do their in house training, but you won't get your rhce |
| 19:42.06 | TodPunk | fugue88: yeah, I ended up just selecting from two subselects. |
| 19:42.51 | TodPunk | toofer, I'll teach you if you'll pay for my test =cP |
| 19:42.56 | toofer | eightyeight, thanks |
| 19:43.37 | toofer | TodPunk, yeah I'll pay for your test as long as it comes with my name on the certificate. |
| 19:44.26 | TodPunk | pfft, paying for someone else's exam is probably cheaper than any training you'll find =c) |
| 19:44.29 | TodPunk | I am kidding, but still |
| 19:44.45 | toofer | Yeah |
| 19:49.13 | *** join/#utah fcodiaz (~fcodiaz@70.102.172.126) |
| 19:56.50 | sjansen | toofer: Several years ago, but yes. |
| 19:58.17 | toofer | Well, I'm getting ready to do it this year and was looking for any advice or lab spaces anyone may have. |
| 19:59.48 | unum | wow it looks like there's stuff on these cds |
| 19:59.51 | unum | but there must not be |
| 19:59.58 | sjansen | Not sure what you mean by lab spaces, but I've got plenty of advice. |
| 20:00.21 | goozbach | sjansen has advice?! |
| 20:00.27 | goozbach | really?! |
| 20:00.32 | sjansen | First, the hardest part of getting your RHCE is the limited amount of time. |
| 20:00.44 | jsmith | goozbach: When does he *not* have advice? |
| 20:00.45 | toofer | Well, like some free openvz space that someone could lend or if anyone has a remote lab similar to CCNA/CCIE lab spaces. |
| 20:01.32 | goozbach | make sure you read *ALL* the instructions |
| 20:01.36 | sjansen | Given plenty of time, no single part of the exam is all that hard. But doing everything in the time allowed is hard. |
| 20:03.11 | eightyeight | my only advice for getting your rhce: you don't get personal time. when you get home, study your freaking brains out. every night. all night. no excuses. |
| 20:03.42 | sjansen | Practice everything listed on this page: http://www.redhat.com/certification/rhce/prep_guide/ |
| 20:03.49 | toofer | eightyeight, started this week. |
| 20:04.31 | toofer | Yeah, I agree about the time limit. |
| 20:05.17 | eightyeight | toofer: well, if you're studying independently, that's a bit different. i'm referring specifically to students in the classroom, who have four days |
| 20:05.37 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:06.08 | toofer | sjansen, got that book. |
| 20:06.27 | sjansen | Haven't read it myself. Don't know how relevant it still is. |
| 20:07.59 | toofer | It's only a couple of years old (2007) |
| 20:08.05 | *** join/#utah sinuhe (~sinuhe@206.40.200.150) |
| 20:08.31 | goozbach | redhat recently re-did their tests from what I'm aware of (2-3 months ago) |
| 20:09.05 | goozbach | the majority of that content should be useful, but expect more |
| 20:09.34 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:11.00 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:11.50 | sjansen | Any way... Real world. Hands on. Look for things on the system that'll help you jog your memory. |
| 20:13.23 | sjansen | Let's say, for example, you were required to setup a DHCP server. (Pretty unlikely since it's not in the prep guide. I don't want to reveal actual exam content.) |
| 20:14.22 | sjansen | In /usr/share/doc/dhcpd-* there's an example config file you could use as a template instead of creating a config from scratch. |
| 20:14.36 | TodPunk | yum install dnsmasq >.> |
| 20:15.06 | sjansen | Many man pages have useful info. Especially the "EXAMPLES" and "RELATED" sections. |
| 20:15.41 | eightyeight | there's even a "Deployment Guide" that's installed by default on a gnome install |
| 20:17.29 | sjansen | And even if some of the guides aren't installed, if you can install them there's some great info in them. |
| 20:19.52 | sjansen | There's no "RH approved" solutions. If the requirements tell you to install and configure an MTA according to certain security requirements, you could write the MTA from scratch in Perl and get credit if it behaves properly. |
| 20:20.52 | sjansen | Make sure that you restart services before testing them, otherwise you're tested the wrong config. |
| 20:21.44 | sjansen | In fact, doing a reboot before validating is best. But it eats up time. |
| 20:22.41 | sjansen | You can't bring in any outside paper, but use what you've got to takes notes as you make progress. |
| 20:23.06 | toofer | Good to know. |
| 20:23.24 | TodPunk | Alt+F4 to a nano/vim/emacs instance of a notes file you are adding to and constantly saving |
| 20:23.56 | sjansen | Less experienced but meticulous candidates are more likely to pass than overconfident experts who skip critical requirements. |
| 20:24.18 | unum | sounds like I'd fail |
| 20:24.31 | unum | <- not detail oriented |
| 20:24.58 | sinuhe | I think the best advice I've given students is trust what you know, i.e. don't panic, and be meticulous and use all the time available to you to make sure the system is configured as required. |
| 20:26.39 | *** join/#utah Sargun (~Sargun@atarack/Staff/Sargun) |
| 20:26.53 | TodPunk | oh, certifications. Good times. Goooooood times. |
| 20:27.32 | unum | I've never gotten any |
| 20:27.40 | unum | I tried for the asterisk one but not very hard |
| 20:28.08 | sjansen | Don't spend too much time on any one requirement. Remember, all you need is a percentage. If you get stuck, don't waste time. |
| 20:28.24 | TodPunk | I got my CNA when that meant Certified Netware Administrator. That's pretty much the only cert I've ever bothered to get. |
| 20:28.52 | TodPunk | Oh, wait, I'm also Microsoft Office Certified xD It was free and I supported the testing environment, but I'd NEVER put that on a resume. Ever. |
| 20:29.02 | sjansen | One of the things I love about the RHCE is that it tests more than just Linux skills. |
| 20:29.57 | TodPunk | So does MCSE, but I imagine RHCE does better at many of those things. |
| 20:29.59 | sjansen | If you're technically brilliant but can't follow instructions, you'll have a harder time passing the exam. |
| 20:30.15 | toofer | Yeah, it's fully hands on so it gives a bit of RHEL world application at least. :) |
| 20:30.43 | sjansen | If you know your stuff, but can't manage your time or handle stress, you'll have a harder time passing. |
| 20:31.04 | sjansen | All of those are skill employers care about in addition to Linux knowledge. |
| 20:32.10 | eightyeight | i do miss teaching. those were fun times |
| 20:40.13 | toofer | Thanks to everyone for the advice. That's really helpful. |
| 20:43.31 | eightyeight | toofer: when are you taking your exam? |
| 20:45.57 | toofer | eightyeight: I don't have a date set yet. But I want to try by the end of October. |
| 20:46.39 | sjansen | toofer: So why are you getting an RHCE? |
| 20:49.34 | Gate | Ah, certifications. Expensive peices of paper that declare you are an expert in a technology that will either be obsolete or rearchiteched by the time you actually recieve the certification. |
| 20:49.54 | TodPunk | Gate++ |
| 20:50.22 | sjansen | So? |
| 20:50.30 | toofer | Gate, but worth if they are free :) |
| 20:50.34 | Gate | There is a reason I went to college. A bachelaureate trumps certifications. |
| 20:50.41 | TehLaser | Are there any other Linux certs, like RHCE, but less, well, red hat? |
| 20:50.45 | TodPunk | Gate-- |
| 20:50.49 | toofer | Linux+ |
| 20:51.02 | TehLaser | has an irrational hatred for rpm. |
| 20:51.05 | JoshH | some certs are crap, some are gold |
| 20:51.07 | TodPunk | TehLaser: SuSe has a couple |
| 20:51.13 | JoshH | well, most are crap |
| 20:51.16 | JoshH | but some really are good |
| 20:51.23 | TehLaser | suse's rpm too, no? |
| 20:51.38 | JoshH | their main purpose is to get you an interview over someone who doesn't, or to meet a requirement |
| 20:52.00 | TehLaser | by "like RHCE" I mean "here, configure this server to do this" rather than "take this multiple choice exam" |
| 20:52.02 | goozbach | ahh bachelaureate certificates... expensive pieces of paper about some sort of topic you are mostl likey not to use in your day-to-day life, most often taught using technology which is *ALREADY* obslete |
| 20:52.05 | toofer | TehLaser, yes Suse uses RPM as well |
| 20:52.25 | sjansen | First of all, most of what the RHCE tests hasn't changed much for years. Even if you only consider RHEL5, that's been around for mostly unchanged for about three years now. |
| 20:52.26 | TodPunk | goozbach++ |
| 20:52.33 | Gate | But the last time I looked at job adverts that listed certs it was certification A, B, C and D or a bachelor's degree |
| 20:53.15 | sjansen | Linux+ is basically rebranded LPI. |
| 20:53.16 | unum | goozbach: my class on qbasic is very relavent to my daily life |
| 20:53.23 | TodPunk | To be fair, job adverts say they want the moon, and usually don't mean it, because even a simple requirement like a degree is a silly limitation to have in most fields. |
| 20:53.24 | toofer | I would say that Degrees and Certs are just different. Certs attempt to help you maintain "current" knowledge and Degrees help you understand what you're doing in the first place(theory). |
| 20:53.27 | unum | oh wait that was too obsolete for my college |
| 20:53.28 | eightyeight | bachelor's degrees teach you how to write papers in [insert format here] format, and how to cram for exams |
| 20:53.34 | unum | why are we still using that again? |
| 20:53.58 | TehLaser | eightyeight: and demonstrate sticktoitedness. |
| 20:54.11 | goozbach | I most definatly didn't stick to it |
| 20:54.13 | unum | I've never crammed for an exam |
| 20:54.19 | eightyeight | heh |
| 20:54.27 | unum | I can't do it |
| 20:54.37 | eightyeight | unum: we've pretty much established already that you're the odd-ball in society |
| 20:54.39 | sjansen | Degree are mostly a signal that you're good at jumping through hoops. |
| 20:54.45 | Gate | TodPunk: I should probably say that I am not IT, I am CS/Software Engineering. Last time I checked I could effectively operate in over a dozen languages, certifications are meaningless to me |
| 20:54.49 | unum | eightyeight: true |
| 20:55.11 | Gate | eightyeight: then you went to the wrong college |
| 20:55.22 | Gate | or had crappy professors |
| 20:55.43 | eightyeight | no, i don't think so |
| 20:55.52 | elg | sjansen: I disagree |
| 20:56.03 | Gate | I didn't write a single paper in any of my CS classes that I can remember |
| 20:56.05 | unum | I do use my cs classes a lot |
| 20:56.14 | unum | if I did more it and less program I probably wouldn't |
| 20:56.16 | elg | most of what you do in college is very rudimentary on the hoop-jumping scale |
| 20:56.20 | eightyeight | i'm not a cs major |
| 20:56.27 | TehLaser | Gate: heh. One of my CS classes had a final exam that was nothing but writing essays. |
| 20:56.31 | elg | you don't need to be very good at hoop jumping to make it through |
| 20:56.32 | Gate | most of the tests were based in demonstrating understanding of the theory and had nothing to do with cramming |
| 20:56.48 | elg | only basic competence is required |
| 20:56.51 | Gate | TehLaser: on of my finals was writing proofs, but I don't count that |
| 20:56.58 | TodPunk | Gate: I'm going for CS/Software Engineering and I've had two job offers for positions in the field and I don't have a degree. They're not exactly required either. It's 4 years to get you in the door, I agree, but certainly not "necessary" |
| 20:57.03 | TehLaser | (granted, it was "software engineering" as in "project management" so code wasn't exactly the focus...) |
| 20:57.15 | sjansen | elg: You may be right, but my instinct is still to fight you to the death for disagreeing with me. |
| 20:57.23 | sjansen | ~stab elg |
| 20:57.23 | ibot | ACTION runs at elg with an origami Swiss Army knife, and inflicts a nasty paper cut. |
| 20:57.26 | elg | read the syllabus and follow it, repeat some 30-40 times |
| 20:57.35 | Gate | TodPunk: I am not saying that a degree is required, I am simply arguing that it is superior in usefulness to certifications |
| 20:57.39 | Gate | generally |
| 20:58.02 | elg | which isn't to say I'm jaded on degrees, I think my college experience was very useful to me |
| 20:58.10 | elg | more useful to me than to a potential employer |
| 20:58.16 | TodPunk | this is true. It's about 800x more time intensive, though. I don't think it's 800x more effective |
| 20:58.24 | elg | but also usefult o employers |
| 20:58.49 | eightyeight | a degree doesn't really spell any more to a smart employer than a certification does |
| 20:59.06 | TehLaser | For a bit of anecdotal evidence, my last employer paid for and generally wanted me to accumulate a pile of certifications: A+, MCSA/E, Other+ and the like, which I did. |
| 20:59.09 | sjansen | College is a great place to grow up a little more, and build a network for the future. |
| 20:59.11 | TehLaser | I also got a BS in CS. |
| 20:59.16 | eightyeight | the smart employer is only going to care about "know how", which hopefully they receive through your interview |
| 20:59.17 | Gate | TodPunk: but think about .NET certification (the only one I have ever seriously considered). If you certified in it 5 years ago, that certification is all but useless. |
| 20:59.20 | TehLaser | That latter came with an instant 5% raise. |
| 20:59.30 | TehLaser | The certs never did anything, as far as I can tell. |
| 20:59.31 | eightyeight | degrees and certs are hr mumbo jumbo |
| 20:59.35 | elg | sjansen: and learn a bunch of stuff |
| 20:59.41 | elg | breadth |
| 20:59.46 | TodPunk | wait, it is? |
| 20:59.57 | TodPunk | was pretty sure he was programming in .NET right now.... |
| 21:00.19 | sjansen | eightyeight: But interviewing is expensive. Any filter, even imperfect, can help to make hiring much less expensive. |
| 21:00.19 | Gate | Yeah, .NET certifications for 1.x and 2.x are IMO now useless |
| 21:00.30 | elg | i'm interested in science and physics but I never would have learned what i did in those fields without university |
| 21:00.41 | TehLaser | Gate: heh. I'm working in .NET 2.x still. |
| 21:00.43 | elg | and i would have learned nothing whatsoever about history or biology |
| 21:00.47 | TodPunk | I suppose to an extent that is true, though much less so for 2.x |
| 21:00.47 | elg | all of which I am glad I learned |
| 21:01.07 | elg | i would have learned just about everything practical I learned about CS on the job or on my own |
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| 21:01.22 | elg | but not the theory in the depth that I did, perhaps. and I am glad I learned the theory |
| 21:01.36 | elg | not just to satisfy curiousity but to make me better at doing what I do |
| 21:01.38 | TehLaser | sjansen: while that is true, the cost of making a bad hire is enormous. |
| 21:02.13 | unum | hmmm I thought we were going to post that we were hiring today |
| 21:02.28 | eightyeight | if you go to college to get an education, good for you. if you go to college to get a degree, without the education, meh |
| 21:02.32 | elg | so university was valuable for me to become who I am. and made me a little better at what I do |
| 21:02.39 | sjansen | TehLaser: Your point? Degrees and certs reduce the probability of a bad hire. Of course, only the insane would skip doing a quality interview too. |
| 21:02.42 | TehLaser | sjansen: it may be more effective in the long run to do more interviewing and less fuzzy-filtering. |
| 21:02.53 | eightyeight | i'm all for receiving a valued education, and learning. i'm not one for getting pieces of paper that say you have it, when you really don't |
| 21:03.06 | sjansen | TehLaser: Have you ever been on the hiring end of the process? |
| 21:03.09 | elg | of course |
| 21:03.23 | elg | which is why i have always had 0 interest in certs. |
| 21:03.39 | sjansen | Hiring is a giant, time consuming, pain in the butt. |
| 21:03.42 | TehLaser | sjansen: only as a peer-interviewer type |
| 21:03.45 | eightyeight | ah, but i would not have learned what i did without my rhce |
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| 21:04.24 | eightyeight | i mean, maybe i would have. it sure would have taken longer, and less accurately |
| 21:04.26 | TehLaser | I actually spent most of the "hiring" time fighting with HR. :P |
| 21:04.32 | TodPunk | Personally, I think in the professional world, degrees are useful for increasing likelyhood of hire candidacy, but aren't a very good filter for anything technical or creative. |
| 21:04.55 | sjansen | Which is why most companies love trusted referrals and only turn to advertising and such if they can't avoid it. |
| 21:05.00 | TehLaser | They kept sending us people who were nowhere near what we needed, and rejected a few people we would have liked to interview. |
| 21:05.10 | TodPunk | indeed |
| 21:05.28 | elg | "hoop jumping" perjorative aside, they do say things about basic competency in getting things done, staying on task, fitting in with an organizational structure and its requirements, etc. |
| 21:05.28 | sjansen | Compared to a good referral, certs and degrees shouldn't matter much to smart companies. |
| 21:05.40 | elg | a lot of which are a signal for most companies |
| 21:05.46 | TodPunk | TehLaser: I'd say your company is rather stuck in policies and paperwork then =cP |
| 21:05.51 | elg | referrals are definitely your best signal. |
| 21:05.59 | eightyeight | agreed |
| 21:06.00 | sjansen | When dealing with advertised positions, certs and degree can reduce the crap flood by at least an order of magnitude. |
| 21:06.01 | TehLaser | TodPunk: ex-company. And indeed. |
| 21:06.43 | eightyeight | again, degrees and certs are hr mumbo-jumbo |
| 21:07.00 | TehLaser | TodPunk: and they had bigger problems. Their idea of a "ultra-secure firewall" was "block UDP 53". |
| 21:07.10 | elg | : |
| 21:07.13 | elg | :) |
| 21:07.50 | TehLaser | The labor market is annoyingly low-information all around. |
| 21:07.52 | TodPunk | elg: you work at FB, yes? Do you have much to do with their graph API? |
| 21:08.04 | elg | no not much |
| 21:08.07 | sjansen | eightyeight: Limiting it to HR is oversimplifying. Don't forget Marketing. |
| 21:08.08 | elg | and yes |
| 21:08.24 | eightyeight | sjansen: fair enough |
| 21:08.24 | elg | (in reverse order) |
| 21:09.03 | elg | is really not in the mood to read code today |
| 21:09.08 | TehLaser | If you could figure out a good way to wade through the piles of resumes and find the good people who are getting overlooked by common existing "imperfect filters" you ought to be able to hire some amazingly good people for cheap. |
| 21:09.24 | elg | TodPunk: but if you have a Q, go ahead and ask it |
| 21:09.25 | eightyeight | speaking of college, it appears all my books have been shipped |
| 21:09.36 | TodPunk | The thing I hate about hiring processes are that you can't ask questions that I think are very enlightening about the kind of person you're hiring. As if not hiring someone because they've been in 3 divorces and harassed their previous co-workers was somehow discriminatory. |
| 21:10.15 | eightyeight | not choosing someone is always based on a discriminatory specification |
| 21:10.22 | sjansen | elg: If you don't want to read code, the obvious answer is to write code! |
| 21:10.40 | TodPunk | elg: I might if/when I have one. I'm trying to get OAuth stuff working sort of like formspring.me, though not working on that here. |
| 21:10.44 | elg | :-) actually maybe that's not a bad idea |
| 21:10.59 | TehLaser | The problem with certs and degrees and the like is that they're an expensive signaling mechanism, whereby the system as a whole is worse-off because of them (wasted money on certs with no predictive value) but individually desireable (all else equal, the resume with the cert will get the interview). |
| 21:11.18 | elg | I more or less have to understand what I'm reading before I can write what I need to write, but I'm sure there are trivial support things I can write without grokking this |
| 21:11.21 | TodPunk | eightyeight: yeah, but I meant more in a "this is illegal fashion" |
| 21:12.11 | sjansen | TehLaser: If that were a case, anyone who created a cheaper signal should be able to revolutionize hiring and make a killing in the process because hiring is _expensive_. |
| 21:12.40 | TodPunk | sjansen: they did. They called them "certifications" because college was expensive. |
| 21:12.42 | TehLaser | sjansen: yeah, except more expensive signals mean more, so there's a sort of arms race. |
| 21:12.50 | sjansen | The fact they're still around is a pretty good sign that certs and degrees are actually pretty efficient. |
| 21:13.06 | TodPunk | I think it's more an indicator that they're a good revenue stream. |
| 21:13.07 | TehLaser | where everyone involved ends up paying more to compete with each other, to their net detriment. |
| 21:13.44 | TehLaser | If you could create a cheaper *reliable* signal, however, that would indeed be the case. |
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| 21:29.10 | unum | market for lemons |
| 21:29.27 | unum | just because people buy stuff doesn't mean that particular stuff is any good |
| 21:29.29 | unum | or useful |
| 21:30.41 | sjansen | Dude, that's problem at the heart of hiring. Certs and a degrees are an attempt to identify more of the lemons. |
| 21:31.04 | TehLaser | Yeah. The assumption in this case is that certs and degrees and such don't actually have to teach you anything. They just have to cost less for better employees to get. |
| 21:31.44 | TehLaser | So even if they're educationally useless, they're useful to employers. |
| 21:32.31 | sjansen | If done correctly, certs can also be a method for employers to verify that employees have gained new skills. |
| 21:32.43 | TehLaser | Though the market as a whole would be better off (more efficient) if they weren't there at all, and bad job candidates just told employers they were bad. Of course, that's not going to happen. |
| 21:32.52 | sjansen | At least in the Linux market, most certs are paid for by employers. |
| 21:33.10 | TehLaser | Yeah, *that* one seems a bit odd. |
| 21:33.12 | fugue88 | Or if we all lived and worked in small communities of ~250 people, so everyone's reputation would be well-known. |
| 21:33.17 | sjansen | Some are getting their employees certified purely for marketing reasons. |
| 21:33.53 | JoshH | ya, like how some companies say "we have more CCIE's on staff than anyone else in the region" |
| 21:34.06 | sjansen | Many are getting their employees certified because the employee is considered valuable but needs new skills and the company wants to measure how well those skills were developed. |
| 21:34.18 | JoshH | the problem with certs is that idiots can go get one at ITT tech |
| 21:34.25 | JoshH | but those people aren't as big a problem as they used to be |
| 21:34.37 | TehLaser | As an employer, why woudl you want to pay to make your staff more likely to get another job/demand higher pay? |
| 21:35.01 | JoshH | as an employee, i would consider it a good benefit |
| 21:35.06 | JoshH | and it would increase my loyalty |
| 21:35.22 | TehLaser | JoshH: yeah, they can, but it costs them more to do it than it costs someone who already knows it. |
| 21:35.48 | sjansen | As an employer, why would want to create an environment where you're constantly in fear of employees leaving? |
| 21:35.54 | TehLaser | JoshH: So, theoretically, fewer of them will pay the cost, and the pool of candidates who do have teh cert will be more skilled on average. |
| 21:35.56 | TodPunk | or if you could, as a reference, tell someone exactly why an employee was bad. |
| 21:36.24 | TehLaser | TodPunk: you can. |
| 21:36.26 | sjansen | Hmm, let me reword that. |
| 21:37.04 | TehLaser | JoshH: of course, this breaks down a bit when people don't have to pay the cost of their own certs. |
| 21:37.05 | TodPunk | TehLaser: not really. You can only answer if you would rehire them or not. |
| 21:37.09 | sjansen | As an employer, wouldn't you rather invest in your employees and create an environment where they want to stay instead of trying to keep them trapped by limiting their usefulness? |
| 21:37.15 | JoshH | TehLaser: most employers that pay for certs also have things like "you need to stay here for 2 years after getting the cert, or pay us back" |
| 21:37.30 | TodPunk | 2 years is a bit excessive |
| 21:37.33 | TodPunk | 6 months is better |
| 21:37.35 | TehLaser | TodPunk: you *can* say whatever you like. But you're less likely to be (successfully) sued if you don't. |
| 21:38.12 | TehLaser | So it tends to be policy not to. |
| 21:38.12 | TodPunk | TehLaser: I can shoot a guy if I want. So fine. "or, if you could legally, as a reference, tell someone exactly why an employee was bad" |
| 21:39.12 | TehLaser | Yeah, but shooting someone is actually illegal. Truthfully evaluating their poor performance is only likely to get you sued, not actually illegal. |
| 21:40.07 | TehLaser | JoshH: I actually refused to take tuition assistance to avoid that very clause. |
| 21:43.05 | TehLaser | Problem is, giving honest references gains you nothing, but risks a lawsuit. So it's logical to avoid doing. Unless you can arrange some sort of pact where a bunch of people all promise to be truthful with each other, then you gain the ability to evaluate your own new hires by giving info on old employees. |
| 21:44.43 | TehLaser | Also, if your competitor calls you up, and asks you for a reference for your worst employee ever, it's to your advantage to try to get them to hire that person. |
| 21:46.17 | JoshH | "bob? he's applying there, eh? um, well, yes, he was fantastic! i hated to lose him!" |
| 21:46.24 | TodPunk | I actually said that to one of the people I let go once. "Please go work for Company X. You'd be so valuable to me there." |
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| 21:47.02 | TodPunk | that guy was insane |
| 21:49.17 | sjansen | I'm not finding it right now, but somewhere out the on the interwebs is a great (but apocryphal) story that'd be perfect to link right now. |
| 21:49.45 | sjansen | Short version: |
| 21:49.57 | elg | does it involve harleypig? |
| 21:50.02 | sjansen | A new technical manager is brought into a a NY financial firm. |
| 21:50.23 | sjansen | He evaluates his existing staff and decides on an unusual course of action. |
| 21:50.51 | sjansen | He announces that the company is moving to .Net, so everyone is going to need to be certified. |
| 21:51.51 | sjansen | When he announces who will be included in the first round of training, some employees are surprised. |
| 21:52.19 | sjansen | Although no one sense is loudly, some feel that the least useful employees are being trained first. |
| 21:52.39 | elg | i object. my sense of smell is loudly |
| 21:52.53 | sjansen | s/sense/says/ |
| 21:53.05 | elg | is loudly is loudly |
| 21:53.11 | TehLaser | Heh. The training budget here was reappropriated this year for "quit ignoring me already! I said we're gonna use .NET!" training. |
| 21:53.27 | TehLaser | (nevermind that all the legacy code is in other languages) |
| 21:53.42 | sjansen | Now the NY financial scene is actually pretty small. It's not unusual for managers managers of major competing firms to bump into each other in the bars on a regular basis. |
| 21:54.15 | sjansen | One evening the new manager notices a competitor at the neighboring table. |
| 21:55.20 | sjansen | He and his companion start to discuss the major shift and training progress. |
| 21:55.47 | sjansen | When they leave, he *accidentally* leaves behind a list of all the employees being trained in the first round. |
| 21:56.02 | sjansen | Within a month, they've all been lured away by the competitor. |
| 21:56.29 | sjansen | The company never does make a shift, but continues to improve it's existing technology. |
| 21:56.49 | sjansen | A year later the competitor goes out of business. |
| 21:57.15 | TodPunk | xD |
| 21:57.37 | unum | http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Up-or-Out-Solving-the-IT-Turnover-Crisis.aspx |
| 21:57.51 | unum | when I first read that I thought it was a bit harsh |
| 21:58.18 | unum | but I've come around to his way of thinking |
| 22:06.43 | TehLaser | interesting idea there. |
| 22:07.58 | TehLaser | I think the author missed the morale hit that hanging the sword of Damocles over your workforce might create though. |
| 22:08.44 | TodPunk | it's not a perfect description, but it takes into account two systems where management is good at what they do, all things being equal, creating talent instead of hiring it is a good idea. I agree, actually. |
| 22:08.54 | unum | depends on the type of business and how long the curve is |
| 22:09.28 | TehLaser | well, not just creating talent, but mining outside experience too. |
| 22:09.38 | sjansen | Works for military and large law firms without hurting morale. |
| 22:10.31 | TehLaser | Maybe I'm just one of the "poor performers" :) |
| 22:10.32 | unum | I don't think good employees will worry about it |
| 22:10.39 | unum | because they plan to move up or move out anyways |
| 22:10.42 | unum | I know I do |
| 22:11.38 | elg | don't you have to be devoid of morale in the first place to be in the military or a law firm? |
| 22:12.37 | sjansen | No, but my understanding is the FB requires all employees to have their morals surgically during the hiring process. |
| 22:13.43 | elg | not so, we have them ingested not injected. |
| 22:13.52 | elg | in the food |
| 22:13.57 | goozbach | I once accidentially the whole morals |
| 22:17.55 | TehLaser | I have trouble believing that engineers could take pride in good strong documentation. |
| 22:18.18 | TehLaser | Even with the idea that it'll be needed because they've moved on to better things. |
| 22:19.21 | TehLaser | is not a jaded cynical pessimist, not one bit, no siree! |
| 22:21.54 | sjansen | My experience is that experience increases how much one values good documentation. |
| 22:22.37 | levi | Sweet, an object-capability system for POSIX systems, and it's been applied to Chromium. |
| 22:22.56 | elg | English? |
| 22:23.05 | sjansen | Every time I've written docs for myself as part of the project, I've lived to thank myself for it. |
| 22:23.16 | elg | clearly you've lived too long |
| 22:23.20 | elg | ~decapitate sjansen |
| 22:23.21 | ibot | ACTION cuts of sjansen's head with a halberd that could have been a little bit sharper |
| 22:23.21 | sjansen | Every time I've skipped writing docs for myself as part of the project, I've lived to hate myself for it. |
| 22:24.55 | levi | Object-capabilities are a way of encapsulating security concerns. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-capability_model |
| 22:25.01 | sjansen | ~lart REXML |
| 22:25.01 | ibot | slaps REXML around with a large trout |
| 22:25.24 | levi | http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/security/capsicum/ |
| 22:42.21 | sjansen | ~nuke REXML |
| 22:42.22 | ibot | ACTION prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at REXML ... Bâ¢â¢M! |
| 22:42.48 | sjansen | I just discovered a 5 year old bug that slipped in because REXML is crap. |
| 22:42.57 | sjansen | I don't know whether to be happy or sad. |
| 22:43.12 | elg | sappy |
| 22:45.16 | sjansen | elg: Good call! Kittens it is! |
| 22:46.49 | sjansen | http://www.kittehroulette.com/ |
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| 22:49.07 | Gate | sjansen: hpricot! |
| 22:49.49 | sjansen | Gate: Equinox! |
| 22:52.17 | Gate | OK, is Equinox Java? Because I was under the impression that REXML was for Ruby.... |
| 22:52.55 | levi | http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/security/capsicum/papers/2010usenix-security-capsicum-website.pdf |
| 23:05.27 | sjansen | Gate: Equinox is an in-house Python libxml wrapper inspired by lxml. |
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