| 00:19.23 | levi | tristanbob_: My respect for you has only grown. :) |
| 00:20.23 | levi | I run a wide variety of OSes depending on what I want/need to do. |
| 00:21.27 | levi | Like the computers they run on, they're tools to get stuff done, or to entetain, or whatever. Use what works for you. |
| 00:22.51 | RyanE | When I see a post / comment like tristanbob_ 's, the first thing I think is that they're kidding... |
| 00:24.04 | RyanE | But hey, if Windows 7 floats your boat, and you have decent anti-virus, I suppose it's a viable option. |
| 00:25.51 | levi | I use Linux, Windows XP, Windows 7, OS X, and QNX regularly, along with some tiny embedded OSes. |
| 00:35.53 | RyanE | I don't use OSX or QNX, but I use the others and Linux on embedded as well, both for work and at home. I think that's one of Linux' strengths... You can compile it for pretty much anything, and have a nice, fairly consistent platform. |
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| 02:14.57 | tristanbob_ | RyanE, no joke this time. |
| 02:15.54 | tristanbob_ | levi, thanks, I agree with your comment. I just want tools and toys. Would I buy a shovel if it didn't do what I wanted it to? |
| 02:17.36 | tristanbob_ | there are a long list of issues I have had to scramble for on Linux. After an upgrade, system boots to command prompt (xorg problem). After upgrade, system can't find hard drive (grub problem). After an upgrade, number pad will not type numbers, only cursor movement (still haven't resolved). |
| 02:18.52 | tristanbob_ | I will still use Linux at work for servers, and probably run it in a VM for local command line tools. |
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| 03:22.08 | levi | tristanbob_: Heard of CoLinux? |
| 03:22.59 | tristanbob_ | levi, googling now |
| 03:23.48 | tristanbob_ | hmmm... pros/cons versus running a VM in virtualbox? |
| 03:24.45 | levi | It integrates a little better |
| 03:41.34 | RyanE | Power outage in Highland for a minute or so... |
| 03:42.28 | RyanE | For my personal desktop, I haven't experienced many problems at all with Linux and upgrades, but my hardware is pretty vanilla, and I'm not a gamer. |
| 03:51.43 | RyanE | hmmm... Another power outage. Gonna be one of those nights. |
| 03:51.52 | levi | Bummer. |
| 03:52.14 | RyanE | It's so rare around here, usually they do it at midnight if it's 'Administrative' |
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| 04:46.57 | RyanE | bmidgley2: power go out at your place tonight? |
| 04:47.03 | RyanE | if you're still up, that is... :) |
| 04:59.38 | bmidgley2 | RyanE, no loss of power, whew |
| 04:59.58 | RyanE | I've had 2 short outages over on this side of the Alpine Highway... |
| 05:00.09 | RyanE | wondered how big they were. Apparently, not too big. :) |
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| 05:18.07 | bmidgley2 | RyanE even this late it would start getting hot in the house if it lasted |
| 05:18.18 | RyanE | yep |
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| 12:20.57 | eightyeight | http://raphaelhertzog.com/2010/07/22/quick-news-dpkg-collab-maint-alioth-and-the-future/ |
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| 16:47.27 | ^Migs^ | http://www.loweringthebar.net/2010/07/mugging-outside-ninja-school-goes-poorly.html |
| 16:47.49 | ^Migs^ | http://www.2theadvocate.com/news/99153999.html |
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| 17:10.04 | sjansen | ~seen elg |
| 17:10.07 | ibot | elg <~fugalh@c-67-188-169-136.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #utah, 2d 21h 52m 30s ago, saying: '~lart emcnabb '. |
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| 18:36.18 | *** topic/#utah by sjansen -> logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/#utah | Ring side seats in the fight between pinko-fascism and anarcho-nazism. |
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| 20:45.22 | ^Migs^ | hahahaha http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/38414189/ns/today-todaytravel/ |
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| 20:46.32 | ^Migs^ | Passenger gets booted from her flight so a fat kid can occupy two seats. |
| 20:46.44 | ^Migs^ | That seems wrong. |
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| 20:50.48 | fadein | fatty mcgee, is that you again? |
| 20:52.38 | tvc123 | oh fatty mcgee your the fattest |
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| 21:15.29 | Gate | Sigh. There hasn't been an argument in here for HOURS. |
| 21:15.56 | Gate | The original Star Wars trillogy is superior to all forms of Star Trek. GO! |
| 21:16.30 | ldav15 | The article says she was flying standby. That's the breaks. |
| 21:16.39 | Migs | Star Wars is superior in some ways, and Star Trek is superior in some ways. They both have their good points. |
| 21:16.46 | Migs | I suck at this arguing thing |
| 21:16.51 | jsmith | Gate: Star Trek is to Star Wars as Geek is to Nerd. True or false? Defend your answer! |
| 21:17.10 | jsmith | Gate: (and your honor as a geek or nerd!) |
| 21:18.08 | ldav15 | cue "Amok Time" battle music... |
| 21:18.49 | ldav15 | or whatever episode Kirk and Spock were battling it out. |
| 21:19.25 | Gate | jsmith: False, you have the relationship inverted. ST : SW as Nerd : Geek. This is exampled by nothing other than pure naivate. Star Trek is the most naive fiction that comes to mind except Obama's biography and thus fits well with social and political naivate attributed to most nerds. |
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| 21:20.14 | Migs | wtf: http://wendyista.blogspot.com/2010/07/screaming-child-on-airplane-causes.html Screaming child causes airplane passenger to go deaf. |
| 21:20.36 | jsmith | Gate: If that's the case, why is there a Start Trek Encyclopedia and Star Trek engineering manuals and no such thing for Start Wars? |
| 21:20.50 | Gate | jsmith: yes there is. |
| 21:21.26 | Gate | Which saddens me a little, but it is still true. |
| 21:24.16 | JoshH | how is star trek naive? |
| 21:25.47 | Gate | JoshH: Star Trek makes the argument repeatedly that people are fundamentally good and that malicious behaviour is generally solvable by appealing to the better nature of those involved. |
| 21:28.16 | Gate | That assumption is requried for human society to exist the way it does in Star Trek. If people weren't lazy, greedy or selfish then the effectively communist society in Star Trek would be possible. |
| 21:29.40 | stderr | you've never read the Culture novels. |
| 21:30.06 | JoshH | i agree that the utopian society depicted in star trek doesn't seem too realistic |
| 21:30.14 | sjansen | I'm a programmer with lots of Web experience. |
| 21:30.35 | sjansen | Most people must be fundamentally good or the Web would have fallen apart long ago. |
| 21:30.47 | Gate | JoshH: its one of the core reasons I lost interest in Star Trek as a fiction. |
| 21:30.54 | JoshH | so you consider laziness, greed, and selfishness to be fundamental traits in humans? |
| 21:31.08 | JoshH | not just flaws in some humans? |
| 21:31.16 | Gate | no, not fundamental so much as unavoidable. |
| 21:31.17 | stderr | selfishness is certainly a fundamental trait in humans. |
| 21:31.40 | JoshH | but most people can overcome their selfishness when a situation really calls for it, i think |
| 21:32.12 | JoshH | i mean, i may be too lazy to mow my lawn at the crack of dawn every saturday, but i can get around to it by 10am or so on sunday to make sure it doesn't get too long by the following weekend |
| 21:32.18 | Gate | JoshH: look at how children act. They will do the minimal (laziness) to get what they want (greed) and keep it from others (selfishness) |
| 21:32.40 | Gate | JoshH: I agree, acts of selflessness are critical for our society to survive. |
| 21:32.48 | sjansen | Love of chocolate is fundamental to human nature. Anyone who doesn't love chocolate is an aberrant danger to society. |
| 21:32.51 | stderr | Observing children for a basis of human behavior is a little ridiculous. |
| 21:32.59 | Gate | But in Star Trek, selfish people are all but non-existant. |
| 21:33.15 | JoshH | there are selfish aliens though |
| 21:33.30 | JoshH | teh people are usually part of a command structure and must act in accordance with regulations and stuff |
| 21:33.32 | Gate | stderr: really? Why? They are the basis our will and intelligence overcome when we are older. |
| 21:33.57 | Gate | stderr: you can't tell me right now that there isn't some peice of your mind who wants a peice of candy? |
| 21:34.09 | stderr | I don't eat candy, so that's a ridiculous assumption. |
| 21:34.21 | Gate | lol |
| 21:34.33 | stderr | I'm talking about the emotional and social development of a child. |
| 21:34.39 | sjansen | Talking about the nature of a sunflower plant before it blooms ignores the beauty and reality of the sunflower. |
| 21:35.11 | Gate | sjansen: but its nature doesn't fundamentally change when it blooms. It simply re-orders that nature. |
| 21:35.15 | sjansen | stderr: Even chocolate? You don't like chocolate?! |
| 21:35.18 | JoshH | stderr: substitute candy for... wait, this is #utah |
| 21:35.24 | stderr | I don't eat sweets, seriously. |
| 21:35.31 | JoshH | i don't either |
| 21:35.32 | stderr | I have a meatloaf cake on my birthday. |
| 21:35.37 | JoshH | but i definitely consume a lot of cheese and bacon |
| 21:35.45 | sjansen | informs the DHS that stderr must be a terrorist because he doesn't like chocolate |
| 21:35.50 | Gate | I didn't mean to go on a fishing expedition for your vices, stderr |
| 21:38.47 | sjansen | http://www.bible.ca/f-child-age-development-chart.htm |
| 21:39.04 | JoshH | i think most people are good at heart, though nobody is perfect, and only some people are truly bad |
| 21:39.36 | Gate | JoshH: I agree to a certain extent |
| 21:39.57 | stderr | lol, a relationship with God is developed at the age of 2 or 3, sjansen? |
| 21:40.05 | Gate | I do believe that people are fundamentally selfish, and it is by their development that (most) learn to overcome that. |
| 21:41.09 | sjansen | *shrug* Not the best URL. I don't feel like finding the real info that says children before X can't recognize themselves in a mirror, children before Y don't know the difference between self and other, etc. |
| 21:41.23 | JoshH | i've never seen a person older than 5 say "give me back my ball" |
| 21:41.33 | sjansen | Point is, claiming that humans are fundamentally unable to do X because children do X is ridiculous. |
| 21:41.45 | JoshH | so people can be selfish, meaning they think of themselves first, but people can still share and help others |
| 21:42.06 | JoshH | of course, few people will give their own life to save someone else |
| 21:42.17 | JoshH | but even star trek doesn't try to claim otherwise, at least as a general rule |
| 21:42.30 | stderr | sjansen: http://www.childdevelopmentinfo.com/development/erickson.shtml |
| 21:42.40 | stderr | sjansen: oh, I agree. |
| 21:44.18 | Gate | Nations act like 5 year olds, so why not adults? |
| 21:45.05 | JoshH | when adults act like 5 year olds, we consider them retarded |
| 21:45.55 | stderr | or sociopaths |
| 21:46.03 | JoshH | when countries besides america act like 5 year olds, we consider them rogue nations or terrorists or not as free as us, etc |
| 21:46.55 | JoshH | seriously though, nations are definitely very selfish |
| 21:46.57 | sjansen | When we think that nations act like 5 years, we're just demonstrating that we refuse to understand their actions. |
| 21:47.19 | JoshH | but that's because they have to act in their own best self interest at all times |
| 21:48.24 | stderr | yes. that's the whole point of a democratic country. A way to implement a collective selfishness. |
| 21:48.40 | stderr | Whereas a dictatorship is a way to implement an individual's selfishness |
| 21:49.16 | stderr | Anyway, don't throw stones inside glass houses |
| 21:51.20 | sjansen | Because everything the US does is selfish? |
| 21:51.55 | sjansen | Sure, some aid is in our interest, but much of it is 'cause we're trying to find a way to improve the world, even if we haven't figured out the most effective way to do it. |
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| 21:53.15 | sjansen | If we were really 100% in pursuit of self interest, we'd reestablish indentured servitude instead of forgiving sovereign debt. |
| 21:54.32 | sjansen | If all military action were purely to protect our own interests, we'd act more like the Roman empire dropping a heavy hammer on anyone that even looked the wrong way at an American citizen, instead of trying to determine "proportional" responses. |
| 21:55.10 | stderr | Most military action is to protect our own interests. Almost all. |
| 21:56.08 | *** part/#utah thrain][ (~Paul@c-76-23-54-200.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:56.26 | stderr | And I'm not saying that the U.S. applies all foreign aid out of self interest. |
| 21:58.26 | sjansen | I'm arguing against the claim that nations act like five year olds. |
| 21:58.34 | JoshH | the iraq war was to free the people from their dictator saddam, but we aren't intervening in any african genocides because there's nothing in it for us |
| 21:58.40 | JoshH | so we're not very consistent i guess |
| 21:58.53 | JoshH | oh wait |
| 21:58.59 | stderr | from ... our dictator* |
| 21:59.12 | stderr | If it was really a War on Terror we'd be in Somalia already. |
| 21:59.39 | sjansen | We tried intervening in Somalia. It went poorly, and we weren't willing the deliver the smackdown that'd be needed to actually fix things. |
| 22:02.16 | stderr | ... one of our many lessons in how you can't defeat terrorism with military might |
| 22:06.09 | Gate | stderr: not true. The correct statement would be that you can't defeat terrorism with military might if you aren't willing to kill every living thing in the country. |
| 22:06.38 | stderr | Yea, destroying everything in an entire country isn't going to inspire more terrorists. |
| 22:07.11 | Gate | The tighter you close your fist the more systems will slip through your fingers.... |
| 22:07.53 | sjansen | I dunno, it worked pretty well for the Roman Empire for awhile. |
| 22:08.56 | sjansen | And it's hard to argue they couldn't have continued for a long time if they hadn't rotted from within. |
| 22:08.57 | Gate | Of course, the Roman Empire didn't have nukes and didn't have to deal with suicide bombers |
| 22:09.30 | stderr | sjansen: How'd them wiping out the Christians work out, though? |
| 22:10.47 | sjansen | stderr: I'm not sure what you're getting at. |
| 22:11.15 | sjansen | The Christians didn't really accomplish much until the Romans decided they were bored with existence. |
| 22:11.31 | Gate | Christians were an internal problem as well |
| 22:11.42 | Gate | Many were Roman citizens |
| 22:11.54 | Gate | So wiping them out would have been a PR nightmare ;) |
| 22:12.06 | Gate | they tried though... |
| 22:12.19 | stderr | The point is that terrorism isn't a "country", it's an ideology. The Romans tried wiping out an ideology, and eventually ended up adopting it. |
| 22:13.15 | Gate | Well, to be honest, they ended up corrupting it and using it as a label for what they were already doing... |
| 22:14.43 | sjansen | I think you'll find that many in #utah consider what emerged from the Roman Empire to be Christian in pretty much name only. |
| 22:15.37 | stderr | Yea, I know how each religious sect views the other. It's in God's Handbook or something. |
| 22:16.23 | Gate | lol |
| 22:16.30 | sinuhe | sjansen: Oh? |
| 22:17.29 | sjansen | sinuhe: This surprises you? |
| 22:17.32 | Gate | Well, I disagree with the analysis of most #utahns. Real christianity did survive. But the cult of mithras was relabeled as Christian and adopted by the Empire. |
| 22:18.32 | Gate | Thus is the reason that Christmas is in December, there are celebate preists and nuns etc. |
| 22:19.13 | sinuhe | sjansen: Surprise? No, though I don't think you can lump all of Roman Christianity into the mistakes of a few in the West. |
| 22:20.46 | sinuhe | I also don't think associating Roman Empire with Christianty as if they were the same thing is accurate. |
| 22:20.56 | sinuhe | s/is acc/as acc/ |
| 22:21.06 | sinuhe | ugh |
| 22:21.24 | sinuhe | beats himself with a grammar noodle |
| 22:21.42 | Gate | The Roman Empire created the core of Catholisism |
| 22:22.06 | sinuhe | wonders what the core of Catholicism is. |
| 22:22.26 | stderr | Guilt. |
| 22:22.33 | stderr | walks away whistling |
| 22:22.36 | sinuhe | Sounds like Western Christianity to me. |
| 22:22.38 | Gate | The basic structure of the Catholic Church |
| 22:23.12 | sinuhe | Gate: If you mean the structure of bishops in council with each other, that was there before Rome got interested, and has remained since Rome disappeared. |
| 22:25.55 | Gate | Why is Mary idolized? |
| 22:26.06 | sinuhe | I wasn't aware that she was. |
| 22:26.11 | sinuhe | Venerated, yes. |
| 22:26.34 | sjansen | http://azstarnet.com/news/local/article_5bc41260-e1ee-57fb-8f68-fe716e9f5bad.html |
| 22:26.39 | Gate | In Roman Catholisism she there are prayers dictated to her. Not to God, to Mary. |
| 22:27.14 | sinuhe | Gate: I think you need to read more before you start accusing Catholics of what they believe. |
| 22:28.21 | Gate | sinuhe: I have read alot, and known Catholics for a long time. Its a diverse religion, of course. |
| 22:29.17 | Gate | sinuhe: are you familiar with the cult of Mitras and its influences on the Roman Empire? |
| 22:34.57 | macnewbold | fwiw, I think gate is right, and they do pray to her (at least part of the time) - the ave maria / hail mary for example. |
| 22:35.07 | sinuhe | Gate: I am quite aware of the parallels to Roman cult gods. However, if this is where the conversation is leading, I'm uninterested. |
| 22:35.26 | macnewbold | plus in practice I know many roman catholics in latin america who pray to idols/statues/images of her and other saints |
| 22:36.29 | Gate | I believe I am mispelling Mitras, but what I am saying is that tens of thousands of people were told "You're Christian now!" without knowing what that meant. So, they relabeled what they believed. |
| 22:36.56 | sinuhe | Sure. |
| 22:37.18 | Gate | The core of Christianity at the time simply couldn't turn the tide of people saying they were Christian without knowing what Christianity was. |
| 22:38.24 | Gate | That lead to the Roman Catholic church, and the splits of protestantism as it became more totalitarian and corrupt. |
| 22:39.23 | sinuhe | That's quite a leap, and rather Western oriented in view. |
| 22:39.57 | sinuhe | is going home now |
| 23:01.14 | Gate | I wasn't trying to imply that there were no other influences... |
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| 23:35.08 | rsimpkins | Gate: What was the original premise that sparked this conversation any way? :) |
| 23:35.40 | rsimpkins | Oh, I see sjansen in there. 'nuff said. ;-) |
| 23:39.41 | Gate | rsimpkins: Star Wars > Star Wars was the premise |
| 23:39.46 | Gate | LOL |
| 23:39.53 | Gate | Star Wars > Star Trek |
| 23:40.20 | rsimpkins | Which star wars, the prequels or original? |
| 23:40.24 | rsimpkins | And which star trek? |
| 23:40.33 | Gate | Original Trilogy vs All Star Trek |
| 23:40.59 | Gate | that morphed into a discussion of human nature, then that morhped into international interaction and conflict |
| 23:41.39 | Gate | Which lead to a discussion of the Roman Empire, which led to a discussion of Christianity |
| 23:41.58 | TodPunk | See it next time on #utah! |
| 23:42.19 | Gate | I pretty much ignored sjansen, it made my life better. |
| 23:42.19 | rsimpkins | So, who one? Star Wars > Christianity ? |
| 23:42.27 | rsimpkins | won. |
| 23:43.51 | Gate | The conversation never resolved, it was more that everyone but me forfieted. |
| 23:44.13 | Gate | So I win. Star Wars > Star Trek. |
| 23:44.22 | rsimpkins | I for one find conservapedia hilarious. |
| 23:46.00 | Gate | never read it. |
| 23:46.08 | Gate | any of it. |
| 23:46.47 | rsimpkins | hit random page, and enjoy. |
| 23:47.04 | Tene | Jesus could totally OWN a Jedi, but they'd never fight. Obviously. |
| 23:48.07 | rsimpkins | Tene: I'd love to see Yoda and Jesus get it on in a no hold bared fight though. Yoda would wip out his light saber, and Jesus would drop a mountain on his head. |
| 23:48.10 | rsimpkins | It would be epic. |
| 23:57.40 | Gate | Yeah, but there would then be a religious war and if there is one thing I don't need its more "jedi" whining about not being allowed to wear their hoods. |