| 00:00.06 | eightyeight | what did you pay for them? |
| 00:00.09 | fungus | eightyeight, drobo's strong point is the flexible/expandable RAID |
| 00:00.22 | fungus | http://www.drobo.com/resources/beyondraid.php |
| 00:00.27 | peno | I'd have to double check the PO, but I think around $5000 for both. |
| 00:00.45 | peno | far less many than what we spend on an Isilon node |
| 00:01.21 | eightyeight | that's far more than i'm willing to spend |
| 00:01.34 | eightyeight | trying to keep this under a grand, if possible |
| 00:01.39 | fungus | the Drobo FS is $600 w/o drives |
| 00:02.00 | fungus | er, $700 |
| 00:02.26 | fungus | but that BeyondRAID makes me drool |
| 00:02.28 | peno | yeah, we went for the highest density versions. partially to store raw HD video, so that it doesn't sit on expensive disk. |
| 00:03.33 | peno | the concept of what they can do, is why I pulled the trigger and ordered a pair. |
| 00:04.00 | peno | I'm hoping that their iscsi support is decent |
| 00:04.04 | eightyeight | yeah. this will just be for home backup |
| 00:04.32 | eightyeight | the 1tb western digital mybook circuit board went out (my second one), so i'm looking for something a bit more serious |
| 00:05.15 | eightyeight | i'll likely just implement raid 10 across 4 1tb drives (or 2tb, if they're affordable) |
| 00:05.21 | peno | a friend of mine has two of the smaller ones, and swears by them |
| 00:06.36 | peno | for home back up, I ended up getting a wd sharespace 4TB. It was under $500 at the time. |
| 00:07.06 | Heartsbane | H8 2 U |
| 00:07.10 | peno | :) |
| 00:07.44 | eightyeight | peno: 4tb usable or raw? |
| 00:07.56 | peno | 4tb raw |
| 00:08.39 | eightyeight | looks promising. i would like to add the 1tb drive i currently have, as that has all the data on it |
| 00:09.13 | fungus | http://www.amazon.com/Western-Digital-ShareSpace-Ethernet-Attached/dp/B001FAE64K |
| 00:09.27 | peno | I get roughly 2.5TB usable out of it |
| 00:09.54 | eightyeight | looks like the reviews on amazon are about the same feelings i have about my mybook |
| 00:10.23 | eightyeight | i dig the wd drives themselves, but i worry about their boards |
| 00:10.32 | peno | yeah, the reviews are iffy |
| 00:11.52 | eightyeight | i think that thecus is the best i've found, and i can keep the price low |
| 00:12.23 | eightyeight | both tigerdirect and newegg give it 4.5 stars |
| 00:14.27 | eightyeight | well, the bell has tolled. time to go home |
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| 04:41.52 | mgeary | calling CentOS users |
| 04:42.14 | mgeary | i need to get a more recent version of mysql-python installed. How can i find a yum repo that would have it? |
| 04:44.01 | mgeary | when i try using easy_install, i get errors :/ |
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| 11:14.52 | infowolfe | anybody other than me headed to DEFCON this year? |
| 11:16.57 | infowolfe | is thinking of heading down (by car) either late wed 28th or early-am thurs 29th |
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| 14:54.01 | Gate | levi: TodPunk and sjansen highlighted you. |
| 14:54.12 | Gate | :) logs rock. |
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| 16:52.26 | TodPunk | infowolfe: I might be going to Black Hat, the DEFCON where people bathe, but not DEFCON |
| 16:54.37 | JoshH | it's lame how all the interesting presentations always get shut down ahead of time at those |
| 16:55.47 | TodPunk | To be fair, there's usually good reason for that. Too many of the ones that get shut down are ones that could be seriously damaging to a company and its customers. |
| 16:57.28 | fungus | TodPunk, so free speech should be prevented just because some corporation doesn't like it. |
| 16:58.14 | TodPunk | Seriously? You're playing the free speech card? |
| 16:58.27 | fungus | Of course. |
| 16:59.10 | fungus | If the presenter has evidence of what he is saying, it is totally valid |
| 16:59.46 | fungus | Whistle-blowers are an important part of American culture |
| 16:59.58 | fungus | Wikileaks, etc. |
| 17:00.00 | TodPunk | Alright, fine, let's talk about free speech. You want them to be able to talk about it? Good, they should be able to talk about it. Wait... they CAN. Unfortunately, they also have to take the consequences of free speech. In this case, that's easily slander and/or libel, depending on the target of the speaker. Making ANY free speech with the intent to harm is something you can do, but something you can and SHOULD be punished for under th |
| 17:00.00 | TodPunk | e law. |
| 17:00.24 | TodPunk | Free speech is a right, and not one we should abuse just because some idiot's anti-corporate. |
| 17:00.48 | fungus | If they have evidence, then it isn't libel. |
| 17:01.01 | TodPunk | The convention runners realize this, and whether they're just mature and responsible or they're just afraid of getting sued is not important to me. |
| 17:01.17 | TodPunk | Yes, it is. True statements can still be libel. |
| 17:01.46 | mindjuju | is it that the conference organizers pull the presentation, or there is a cour order? |
| 17:01.51 | TodPunk | This isn't even touching on laws like insider trading, whistle-blowing, etc |
| 17:01.57 | mindjuju | i thought in the case of the subway presentation, it was a court order |
| 17:02.03 | TodPunk | mindjuju: depends on the instance. |
| 17:03.03 | mindjuju | i think it is also important to note that a libel suit, brought on issues that something is true, is done to intimidate the other party to back down because they can't afford the cost |
| 17:03.19 | mindjuju | they wouldn't win, but the guy with the truth can't afford to defend himself / herself |
| 17:03.23 | TodPunk | sometimes, maybe even often |
| 17:03.45 | mindjuju | you've got valid point though, have to be careful with what is disclosed, |
| 17:05.00 | mindjuju | can you imagine what would have happened if wikileaks had (received/posted) those ambassador - level communiques |
| 17:05.06 | TodPunk | I think it's a social responsibility thing. Just because you can say something doesn't mean you should. |
| 17:05.31 | mindjuju | there is a fine line, and it's very hard to tell where it is sometimes |
| 17:05.38 | fungus | TodPunk, I agree, but preventing someone's speech because it is unpopular is wrong. |
| 17:05.47 | TodPunk | it hasn't been prevented |
| 17:05.49 | TodPunk | that's stupid |
| 17:05.59 | TodPunk | speaking /at a convention/ is not a right |
| 17:06.27 | fungus | True, but the convention organizers are socially irresponsible |
| 17:06.28 | mindjuju | are we talking in general or is there something specific? |
| 17:06.32 | TodPunk | it certainly doesn't prevent them from setting up a blog, shouting at a park, sending emails, etc |
| 17:07.07 | mindjuju | but those avenues aren't nearly as effective as a presentation at DEFCON |
| 17:07.09 | TodPunk | fungus: I think you mean (or should mean) they're socially responsible where their speakers fail to be so. |
| 17:07.41 | TodPunk | your average DEFCON speaker is socially unaware enough to have no idea what social responsibility actually is. |
| 17:08.16 | mindjuju | has never been and so can't comment as to whether they are or not |
| 17:09.03 | TodPunk | I mean, you say "Oh, just because a corporation doesn't want it said doesn't mean it shouldn't be said." That's fairly accurate, but most corporations don't just randomly decide they don't want things said. They make such decisions based on actual risk. |
| 17:09.30 | TodPunk | That risk translates into actual people, with homes and families, being hurt. There exists no such things a /just a corporation/ |
| 17:09.52 | mindjuju | hmmm, that's too easy to be abused |
| 17:09.59 | TodPunk | Everything is. |
| 17:10.31 | TodPunk | Social mechanics are simple and easily manipulated. That's why we have freedoms to ignore them and speak anyway. |
| 17:11.41 | TodPunk | Nobody should be forced to do stuff just because it's not in the best interest of someone else, but that's a judgement call that should be made on a situational basis, and not by blanket statements like "Corporations are evil and should be fought at any chance." |
| 17:11.47 | TodPunk | not that anyone has said that today |
| 17:11.58 | TodPunk | It's just a good example. |
| 17:12.02 | sjansen | TodPunk: Are you willing to agree that it is wrong for a corporation to use the threat of a lawsuit they're certain to lose if the other part doesn't go bankrupt just to shut that party up? |
| 17:12.16 | fungus | I never said all corporations are evil. |
| 17:12.40 | TodPunk | fungus: please read the two statements AFTER that, where I clarify that I'm not inferring anything about you or anyone else. |
| 17:13.06 | fungus | But corporations threatening lawsuits to keep people quiet about their serious security issues is wrong |
| 17:13.22 | TodPunk | sjansen: Putting that example out there is a poor excuse for denying corporations the freedom to threaten to sue entirely. |
| 17:13.57 | sjansen | TodPunk: Who said anything about that? |
| 17:14.06 | TodPunk | sjansen: nobody |
| 17:14.15 | sjansen | So why'd you even bring it up? |
| 17:14.33 | sjansen | Are you just trying to avoid the question? |
| 17:14.43 | TodPunk | No, we've already adressed the question. |
| 17:15.01 | TodPunk | <mindjuju> i think it is also important to note that a libel suit, brought on issues that something is true, is done to intimidate the other party to back down because they can't afford the cost |
| 17:15.15 | TodPunk | I agreed that it happens. |
| 17:15.34 | mindjuju | yup, he did |
| 17:15.36 | sjansen | That isn't the same as agree it is wrong. |
| 17:16.06 | TodPunk | Wrong is a subjective idea that doesn't really have any place in such a limited and unrealistic context. |
| 17:16.07 | sjansen | You seem to support anything a company does in defense of jobs or profit margins because "it effects real people". |
| 17:16.22 | sjansen | I'm curious if you're willing to acknowledge that it cuts both ways. |
| 17:16.52 | TodPunk | If shutting him up saves literally thousands of people from having to live on the streets, or protects a nation from being infiltrated via electronic means, there's a different perspective where "wrong" has a different meaning. |
| 17:17.24 | mindjuju | hmm, slippery slope warning :: ends justify the means |
| 17:17.37 | sjansen | Because you think that revealing a flaw in the phone systems is going to result in thousands of people living under bridges? |
| 17:17.44 | TodPunk | indeed, and then we're back at the "that's too easy to abuse" portion of the cycle. |
| 17:17.54 | fungus | TodPunk, preventing exposing a security flaw doesn't make the flaw go away! |
| 17:18.08 | TodPunk | fungus: of course not |
| 17:18.14 | TodPunk | but it doesn't fix it either |
| 17:18.23 | fungus | It makes it get fixed a lot faster |
| 17:18.31 | sjansen | C'mon, by that same logic governments should do everything in their power to control their citizens, including torture and summary execution without trial. 'Cause if we don't bad things might happen and people might end up living under bridges. |
| 17:18.33 | mindjuju | +1 fungus |
| 17:18.37 | TodPunk | sometimes |
| 17:18.58 | TodPunk | sjansen: "might" is a very dangerous word |
| 17:19.12 | fungus | TodPunk, there are countless examples of corporations refusing to fix flaws until they are publicized |
| 17:19.16 | sjansen | TodPunk: Why are the rights of the many important to you, but the rights of the few so disposable? |
| 17:19.37 | mindjuju | where hindsight has provided clarity, i think many leaks have proved important to society, HOWEVER, there should be limits to "free" speech, perhaps ti should be termed "responsible" speech |
| 17:19.53 | TodPunk | sjansen: because I live in the real world, where sacrafices of all kinds, including in my own existence, are very important to weigh appropriately. |
| 17:20.10 | sjansen | TodPunk: You started it. "If shutting him up saves literally thousands..." |
| 17:20.13 | Gate | OK, I open this tab and all I see is an advocation of "responsible" speech.... |
| 17:20.43 | TodPunk | sjansen: if it DOES, yes. If it MIGHT, well, there's just a bunch of opinions out there on the table then, and it's really sort of ambiguous what "should" be done. |
| 17:21.03 | sjansen | TodPunk: You're real world leads to appeasement when confrontation may be painful but in the long term limits damage more than allowing the problem to fester. |
| 17:21.27 | TodPunk | mindjuju: not at all. no limits to free speech whatsoever. We just never really deal with that in context of consequences. |
| 17:22.01 | sjansen | Yeah, and you're implying that widespread homelessness is the automatic result of a little corporate embarrasment. |
| 17:22.05 | TodPunk | sjansen: that's a situationally applicable truth, yes, but certainly not something that should be applied everywhere. |
| 17:22.37 | TodPunk | sjansen: quite the opposite, there are many cases where such a speech isn't a big deal, and some where that could easily be the result. |
| 17:23.33 | sjansen | TodPunk: BTW, you still haven't answered my question. |
| 17:23.38 | TodPunk | which one? |
| 17:23.44 | sjansen | You seem to support anything a company does in defense of jobs or profit margins because "it effects real people". |
| 17:23.50 | sjansen | oops |
| 17:23.53 | TodPunk | Which isn't a question, |
| 17:24.02 | sjansen | TodPunk: Are you willing to agree that it is wrong for a corporation to use the threat of a lawsuit they're certain to lose if the other part doesn't go bankrupt just to shut that party up? |
| 17:24.28 | TodPunk | Oh, I see, here, let me quote the answer again: Wrong is a subjective idea that doesn't really have any place in such a limited and unrealistic context. |
| 17:24.39 | TodPunk | Or more succinctly: Your question is silly. |
| 17:25.06 | TodPunk | Saying yes, or saying no, would be a blanket statement that doesn't even apply to most cases. |
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| 17:26.26 | sjansen | So corporations, not democratic governments, should have the power to control speech? |
| 17:26.55 | sjansen | I find it surprising that you insist on an acknowledgement that the real world is fuzzy, but can't deal with a fuzzy word like "wrong". |
| 17:27.26 | fungus | TodPunk, the large majority of talks shut down at BlackHat/Defcon do not threaten large groups of people's jobs. |
| 17:27.28 | TodPunk | I think it's funny that you keep drawing that conclusion. I don't know how many times I've pointed out that they don't actually control anything. |
| 17:27.31 | sjansen | It reeks of hiding behind semantics, but if you really insist I could spend several paragraphs exploring the implications for the way we write laws to balance powers. |
| 17:27.52 | sjansen | Of you could get off your high semantic horse and answer the question. |
| 17:28.28 | TodPunk | I have, several times. I'm sorry it doesn't fit your one-word mould, but that's not really my problem. |
| 17:28.44 | Gate | Wrong in the same category as douchebags who sue doctors just to get settlements for something that isn't the doctor's fault. |
| 17:29.09 | TodPunk | No, that's more clear cut, Gate. |
| 17:29.28 | TodPunk | You've basically got two people with limited motivations to draw them into that situation. |
| 17:29.46 | sjansen | TodPunk: Is the current balance of power that makes it possible for people with lots of money to silence people with less money in the best interest of anyone other than the rich and powerful? |
| 17:29.47 | Gate | TodPunk: true, but as I read his question is the use of doomed lawsuits as a delaying tactic wrong. |
| 17:30.58 | sjansen | TodPunk: Follow up question, if you acknowledge that it basically only benefits the rich and powerful, is that really the type of country you want to live in? |
| 17:31.28 | TodPunk | sjansen: that depends on the people who are rich and powerful. In most cases, they are fairly benign until threatened. In some cases, they have the best interests of the public at heart, and have a great deal of experience to back that up. In some cases, they are idiots that have ill-intent for others in mind. |
| 17:32.43 | sjansen | TodPunk: Oh come off it. Do you really think that "he who has the gold makes the rules" is just as good as "by the people, for the people"? |
| 17:32.45 | TodPunk | sjansen: I think in some countries people are limited in what they can do to counter that balance. I think this country specifically lacks a lot of barriers to becoming "rich and powerful" for anyone inclined to do so. |
| 17:32.56 | fungus | Wow, TodPunk sounds like we are all only here due to the rich and powerful benefactors. |
| 17:33.16 | TodPunk | Wow, when did I even IMPLY that, let alone say it, fungus? |
| 17:33.26 | *** part/#utah Nafai (~Nafai@travishartwell.net) |
| 17:33.37 | fungus | Your response to sjansen's question sounded like that a lot |
| 17:33.54 | sjansen | TodPunk: You do realize that the philosophy your espousing is the definition of fascist? |
| 17:34.27 | TodPunk | fungus: history is filled with kings who rule absolutely and most don't do anything, some do great things, and some are genuinely ill willed. I think it correlates nicely to current times. |
| 17:34.47 | sjansen | TodPunk: So? |
| 17:34.49 | fungus | yikes |
| 17:34.56 | fungus | so you think that's a good thing? kings? |
| 17:35.02 | TodPunk | sigh |
| 17:35.04 | fungus | Corporations are to be treated like kings? |
| 17:35.06 | fungus | WTF? |
| 17:35.09 | TodPunk | when did I say it was good OR bad? |
| 17:35.14 | Gate | wow. Are you intentionally misreading him? |
| 17:35.28 | TodPunk | I'm pretty sure they're just trying to bait me at this point |
| 17:35.34 | TodPunk | they can't be this incapable of communicating |
| 17:35.39 | fungus | This whole conversation so far has been TodPunk defending corporations |
| 17:35.39 | Gate | sjansen is quite practiced at that |
| 17:36.08 | Gate | fungus: they get alot of crap for things that aren't their fault... |
| 17:36.17 | Gate | (realize I haven't read all the context) |
| 17:36.20 | TodPunk | fungus: quite the opposite, actually. My point is that nobody should be attacking any specific party in all cases. |
| 17:37.07 | sjansen | TodPunk: What was your reason for bringing up kinds? |
| 17:37.10 | TodPunk | This goes back to my acknowledgement of mindjuju's excellent point that often corporations abuse their resources to threaten individuals. |
| 17:37.19 | sjansen | All I've seen so far is attempt to change the topic. |
| 17:37.39 | tensai | sjansen: I like ponies |
| 17:37.42 | mindjuju | looks up |
| 17:37.43 | sjansen | I'm trying to find common ground, but you insist on slipping past every direct question. |
| 17:38.29 | sjansen | The word abuse is a value statement. One would almost think you found such behavior wrong. |
| 17:38.29 | TodPunk | sjansen: not at all. You believe I'm slipping past when I'm answering as directly as possible, but you can't fit it into the desired subset of answers you're looking for. |
| 17:39.05 | TodPunk | "abuse" can be quite quantitative, actually. |
| 17:39.09 | sjansen | But of course we know you don't believe that because wrong is a nonsense word, so you must assign an alternate definition or connotation to the word abuse. |
| 17:39.56 | sjansen | I mean it couldn't possibly be that you're refusing to answer because you simply refuse to answer. |
| 17:40.16 | TodPunk | so, is everyone else done? Because sjansen is really just trolling at this point, and nobody else seems to be saying anything. |
| 17:40.39 | Gate | TodPunk: see what I mean? sjansen is quite skilled at changing the rules or twisting statments to aggrivate whomever is arguing with him. |
| 17:40.40 | TodPunk | sjansen: my english teachers hated my essays. |
| 17:40.42 | fungus | TodPunk, here is a direct question. Do you believe that corporations threatening lawsuits with no hope of winning in order to only protect a "reputation" is wrong? |
| 17:41.00 | TodPunk | fungus: in many cases |
| 17:41.14 | sjansen | I'm pissed off that you assume I'm not actually trying to have a conversation. I'm expressing my anger at your disrespect. That is not the same thing as trolling. |
| 17:41.58 | mindjuju | if i understand TodPunk's opinion, he's saying that "wrong" is relative to the situation, thereby making the question, a silly one (his wording) |
| 17:42.02 | fungus | TodPunk, then you must agree that "in many cases" presentations shut down at BlackHat/Defcon is also wrong |
| 17:42.19 | TodPunk | mindjuju: simplified, but appropriate. |
| 17:42.59 | mindjuju | an interesting stance, I must ponder this |
| 17:43.07 | TodPunk | fungus: only if he can't speak elsewhere either. |
| 17:43.29 | TodPunk | BlackHat/DEFCON can make their own decisions about their stance on the subject. |
| 17:43.46 | fungus | I am speaking of wrong in the socially responsible sense |
| 17:44.22 | mindjuju | well, except that eh's saying but "socially responsible" to whom? |
| 17:44.25 | TodPunk | too many variables in that particular perspective. Maybe it's a minor security flaw and the speaker is literally just being a jerk to the corporation to bring their stock prices down or something. |
| 17:44.29 | TodPunk | Happens a lot, actually. |
| 17:44.45 | mindjuju | now, i'm not taking his stance, just translating his intent |
| 17:45.08 | TodPunk | Most of the "flaws" discussed are trivial. I once saw a big hullabaloo about a security flaw that required you have physical access to the machine. I thought that was silly to make a big deal about. |
| 17:45.32 | TodPunk | mindjuju: I understand your intent there, and appreciate the effort. |
| 17:45.39 | mindjuju | :) |
| 17:45.39 | fungus | Why are you changing the subject |
| 17:45.59 | fungus | flaws triviality has no bearing on these questions. |
| 17:46.20 | TodPunk | fungus: I went on a 5 sentence tangent. Conversations do that sometime. You can pick it up and run with it if you want, or continue with the original thread. I'm not picky. |
| 17:46.50 | TodPunk | I think the triviality of the flaw is an important variable in the question, and only one of many. |
| 17:47.31 | sjansen | Important triviality. |
| 17:47.49 | fungus | If the flaw is trivial then the presentation will be trivial and have no bearing on the source of the flaw |
| 17:48.01 | TodPunk | Character of the individual, respect in the community, history of being a douche to other corporations, wording of the presentation, whether or not the presenter has vested interest in the corporation at hand, etc, etc, etc |
| 17:48.59 | sjansen | TodPunk: BTW, after spending so much time whining about the original wording, you never did respond to the reworded versions. |
| 17:49.07 | fungus | I guess I really only got upset when you started your protect the rich and powerful diatribes |
| 17:49.37 | fungus | I like the American way where anyone can become rich and powerful themselves, no reason to protect the existing ones. |
| 17:49.41 | TodPunk | sjansen: I believe in one case I reworded my response and in others I just quoted the same as before. |
| 17:49.46 | sjansen | I don't appreciate being blown off. If you're just going to ignore what you don't want to hear, say so and we'll stop wasting each other's time. |
| 17:50.13 | sjansen | TodPunk: Is the current balance of power that makes it possible for people with lots of money to silence people with less money in the best interest of anyone other than the rich and powerful? |
| 17:50.24 | *** part/#utah redbeard_work (~jphall@fw.oremut02.us.wh.verio.net) |
| 17:50.46 | mindjuju | ah, a fine question |
| 17:50.59 | fungus | He asked it before at least twice |
| 17:51.01 | Gate | Its not the "balance of power," its a preposterously corrupt and insane legal sytem |
| 17:51.02 | fungus | Never got answered |
| 17:51.08 | Gate | s/sytem/system/ |
| 17:51.10 | TodPunk | I don't believe there is a "balance of power that makes it possible for people with lots of money to silence people with less money." |
| 17:51.40 | sjansen | Yes, you do. |
| 17:51.56 | TodPunk | I believe there's a great deal of threatening that can happen, but staying in the bounds of law, you can't stop someone from saying something, good or bad. |
| 17:52.08 | TodPunk | well, unless you shoot them or something. |
| 17:52.30 | TodPunk | Gate: insane legal system I can agree with. |
| 17:52.56 | sjansen | <TodPunk> This goes back to my acknowledgement of mindjuju's excellent point that often corporations abuse their resources to threaten individuals. |
| 17:53.00 | Gate | I can be accused of many things and spend the next decade in court proving my innocence |
| 17:53.07 | TodPunk | sjansen: they do. |
| 17:53.23 | sjansen | That was in response to fungus asking basically the same thing I did. Now that it is clear to me that you will dodge any question I ask, I'm done. |
| 17:54.06 | TodPunk | Well, have fun, I guess. |
| 17:54.27 | sjansen | If you didn't believe that a corporations deeper pockets (resources) gave than advantage (power) you wouldn't have said that. |
| 17:55.06 | TodPunk | I believe that an individual's industry standing and respect gives him an advantage too. |
| 17:55.32 | sjansen | Because industry standing is wonderfully helpful dealing with blackballing and bankruptcy. |
| 17:56.10 | sjansen | And because only people who have spent decades establishing a reputation are capable of identifying truth. |
| 17:56.21 | Gate | Before you spend too long villifying corporations: corporations are just groups of individuals.... |
| 17:56.23 | TodPunk | My point is that you're oversimplifying the question and drawing a one-sided picture where none exists. Individuals have just as much good and ill intent and just as much power, or corporations wouldn't be afraid of them in the first plcae. |
| 17:56.44 | sjansen | Gate: And axes are just groups of atoms. That doesn't mean we treat them the same. |
| 17:56.58 | TodPunk | It does if your'e asking questions about atoms. |
| 17:57.47 | TodPunk | <sjansen> And because only people who have spent decades establishing a reputation are capable of identifying truth. |
| 17:58.01 | sjansen | TodPunk: Your point? Do you honestly think that after spending so much time talking about corporations, we're simply talking about individuals? |
| 17:58.22 | sjansen | TodPunk: That's called sarcasm. I use it often to point out the flaws in others logic. |
| 17:58.33 | TodPunk | That's a rather odd statement. The truth of the matter isn't important to their advantage. Their ability to be respected when they speak it is. |
| 17:58.49 | TodPunk | I realize it was sarcasm, but sarcasm is still used to make points. |
| 17:58.52 | sjansen | My point exactly. |
| 17:58.57 | mindjuju | no, but he's saying you apply "wrong" relative to a person to a question about the operation of a company, ant that makes you're question silly @sjansen |
| 17:59.08 | mindjuju | (his words) |
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| 17:59.40 | TodPunk | (Opinions expressed are solely those of TodPunk and not to be affiliated with mindjuju or his subsidiaries) |
| 17:59.46 | mindjuju | :) |
| 18:00.16 | mindjuju | you make a good argument, like i say, i'd like to think about this |
| 18:00.18 | sjansen | mindjuju: We've already established that getting TodPunk to understand my use of the word wrong is a waste of time. |
| 18:00.42 | TodPunk | Your use of the word wrong is still oversimplified to what you're really asking. |
| 18:00.50 | mindjuju | right |
| 18:01.01 | sjansen | We've also established that TodPunk is going to quibble with everything I say instead of confronting head on. |
| 18:01.08 | TodPunk | You aren't terribly interested in my opinion of the matter, you just want me to love or hate all corporations when they sue individuals. |
| 18:01.36 | sjansen | TodPunk: What gave you that opinion. |
| 18:01.41 | TodPunk | I don't know what definition of "head on" you have, but I feel I'm being direct as possible without getting petty and calling you names or something. |
| 18:01.53 | sjansen | My original goal was to establish common principles we could reason from. |
| 18:02.06 | TodPunk | sjansen: mostly your inability to discuss things without absolutes. |
| 18:02.15 | TodPunk | at least in the context of this conversation |
| 18:02.19 | sjansen | But because you refused to do even that, we've wasted a lot of time with me expressing anger at your disrespect. |
| 18:02.42 | TodPunk | How have I disrespected you? It was not my intent, and I don't think I've done anything rude. |
| 18:03.04 | TodPunk | Possibly the use of the word "silly" but I happily accept that one, as I have no replacement for it. |
| 18:04.03 | sjansen | I've already wasted enough time. If you honestly want to know the answer to that question, read through the history asking "what direction is he trying to go" instead of "how can I find flaw with this statement". |
| 18:04.07 | sjansen | I'm done. |
| 18:04.24 | mindjuju | sjansen, while his words seem antagonistic and illusive, he's really doing this: by answering the question as you've worded them, the would be giving you a misunderstanding of what he really thinks |
| 18:04.57 | mindjuju | that' prolly could be worded better, but the essense is this, he can't, because you're not asking the right question |
| 18:05.17 | TodPunk | My intent is to communicate accurately. You don't do that by making blanket statements, especially in a debate where people tend to bring up logs and quote them. |
| 18:05.23 | fungus | TodPunk, do you believe that a corporation can use it's resources to silence people with less? |
| 18:05.42 | mindjuju | which corporation doesn't? |
| 18:05.44 | TodPunk | fungus: yes, and sometimes they do. |
| 18:05.45 | sjansen | mindjuju: They're only confusing if you assume I'm only capable of thinking in absolutes. |
| 18:05.48 | mindjuju | whch group of people doesn't? |
| 18:06.00 | mindjuju | that's his point |
| 18:06.03 | TodPunk | mindjuju: you obviously don't know how many corporations there are. Most don't ever enter the courtroom. |
| 18:06.27 | fungus | Next question, Is this action in the best interest of anyone other than the rich and powerful? |
| 18:06.31 | mindjuju | sjansen, but you're only speaking in absolutes |
| 18:06.32 | TodPunk | sjansen: not thinking, but you've only presented absolutes for me to answer. |
| 18:07.11 | sjansen | Argh! I said I'm done! |
| 18:07.26 | TodPunk | fungus: You're attempting to lead me into a logical fallacy. No, it's not. It's in the interest of the corporation, which serves many purposes outside the rich and the powerful. |
| 18:07.59 | TodPunk | (I realize that's probably not your intent, just saying that's what is happening) |
| 18:08.12 | *** mode/#utah [+o goozbach] by ChanServ |
| 18:08.25 | mindjuju | and the inherint problem with sj@nsen's statements |
| 18:08.40 | sjansen | Fine, one last question: When starting a discussion of physics, is it best to assume everyone agrees on a particular theory of quantum mechanics, or is it better to start by checking that everyone agree with Newton's laws even if they've been proven flawed at certain scales? |
| 18:08.49 | fungus | So essentially your point is, rich and powerful/corporations can do anything they want as long as they can create jobs? |
| 18:09.16 | TodPunk | sjansen: depends on your audience, the setting, and what area you intend to take the discusson. |
| 18:09.34 | mindjuju | i've known / know physicits, and they've NEVER agreed |
| 18:09.37 | mindjuju | on ANYTHING |
| 18:09.55 | TodPunk | sigh |
| 18:09.58 | mindjuju | rofl |
| 18:10.16 | TodPunk | and I've just ragequitted sjansen |
| 18:10.24 | goozbach | meh |
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| 18:10.37 | goozbach | time to +m the channel? |
| 18:10.38 | TodPunk | fungus: no, I'm saying both corporations and individuals can do anything they want and assume the consequences of their actions within the bounds of law. |
| 18:10.50 | goozbach | ya'll need a time out? |
| 18:10.57 | TodPunk | I think we're good |
| 18:11.28 | TodPunk | fungus might be annoyed, but we're being civil, and I think the discussion is fine. |
| 18:11.47 | TodPunk | So far we're just picking apart my position so I'm not learning much about others though. That's a little disappointing. |
| 18:12.01 | fungus | I'm incredibly annoyed, because you keep changing parameters of the discussion |
| 18:12.25 | mindjuju | he's not really changnig parameters, honest |
| 18:12.44 | fugue88 | Hey, did anyone hear about that new Linux distro? |
| 18:12.46 | fungus | right vs wrong != legal vs illegal |
| 18:12.52 | TodPunk | fungus: actually, you just keep trying to build in constraints I can't agree to. Putting things in boxes for discussion rarely ends well for me. |
| 18:13.06 | mindjuju | fungus, here's what i mean |
| 18:13.14 | TodPunk | legal vs illegal is quite easily defined compared to right vs wrong |
| 18:13.20 | mindjuju | have you ever heard the question "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" |
| 18:13.31 | mindjuju | that's a question that can't be answered |
| 18:13.34 | fugue88 | Inflecture, or something like that. |
| 18:13.36 | mindjuju | if you say yes, it means that you did |
| 18:13.42 | mindjuju | and if you say no, it means you still do |
| 18:13.42 | fugue88 | I like to answer "mu" or µ. |
| 18:13.43 | TodPunk | well, not by yes or no, anyway |
| 18:13.46 | mindjuju | it's a loaded question |
| 18:13.48 | goozbach | anyone used Inferno? |
| 18:13.55 | goozbach | it's pretty cool |
| 18:13.55 | mindjuju | so the question you asked, is like that |
| 18:13.56 | fungus | I understand a loaded question. |
| 18:14.08 | fugue88 | goozbach: Link? |
| 18:14.23 | TodPunk | http://www.autodesk.com/inferno |
| 18:14.38 | goozbach | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_%28operating_system%29 |
| 18:14.39 | TodPunk | goozbach: no, I haven't |
| 18:14.40 | fugue88 | I was thinking he meant the operating system. |
| 18:14.44 | TodPunk | oh |
| 18:14.49 | TodPunk | uh... |
| 18:14.49 | fugue88 | Yeah, plan9 descendant, isn't it? |
| 18:14.50 | TodPunk | goozbach: no, I haven't |
| 18:15.18 | fugue88 | Some awesome ideas in plan9, especially for programmers. |
| 18:15.26 | fugue88 | Haven't looked in to inferno yet though. |
| 18:16.02 | goozbach | it's plan9 based |
| 18:16.05 | goozbach | it's pretty cool |
| 18:16.23 | goozbach | we're using plan9 on our appliances, it's *different* |
| 18:17.02 | TodPunk | fungus: The overarching philosophy I have about communication is that people use words to communicate ideas, and those words come with certain connotations and expectations which limit their ability to communicate that idea. People are happy to deal in limited areas of thinking because it's more manageable and takes less thought to formulate responses. |
| 18:17.07 | fugue88 | goozbach: What appliances? |
| 18:17.24 | goozbach | fugue88: http://www.coraid.com/ |
| 18:17.36 | fungus | TodPunk, I don't want to have a meta-conversation. I am sick of it. |
| 18:17.46 | TodPunk | fungus: understood. Moving on then. |
| 18:17.51 | fugue88 | Sweet. How's the OS performance-wise? |
| 18:17.58 | fungus | I want to understand your views on corporations social responsibility |
| 18:17.59 | goozbach | any of you who are using NetApp should look at coraid next time your purchace cycle comes up |
| 18:18.09 | goozbach | fugue88: awesome! |
| 18:18.27 | fungus | But you keep refusing to clarify or state philosophies |
| 18:18.29 | TodPunk | dude, NetApp. I don't know why people spend so much on a storage array. |
| 18:18.31 | fugue88 | is seriously considering putting plan9 in a vm somewhere. |
| 18:18.50 | mindjuju | @fungus, I think his argument is that all entities (human, societal, corporation) work towards tehir own self interest |
| 18:18.50 | goozbach | fugue88: it's worth it if only for toying purposes |
| 18:18.57 | fungus | You keep saying, "whatever is legal" and "it depends" |
| 18:19.03 | TodPunk | I worked for a company that spend almost a million dollars to get 40 TB in rack storage. I have almost that in my home network for a few thousand over the years. |
| 18:19.06 | goozbach | TodPunk: it does "just work" |
| 18:19.13 | mindjuju | fungus, you're a vegetarian, but have you thought about the impact to carrots? |
| 18:19.22 | mindjuju | do THEY want to be eaten? |
| 18:20.10 | fungus | I can answer that question. |
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| 18:20.10 | mindjuju | which by the way, is why i only eat things that have a chance to fight back, aka, carnivorous |
| 18:20.11 | mindjuju | :) |
| 18:20.11 | fungus | I believe that the Animal kingdom has the facilities to be self-aware, have feelings, etc. and do not deserve to be killed |
| 18:20.11 | mindjuju | bbq at my house this weekend |
| 18:20.11 | fugue88 | mindjuju: Awesome. |
| 18:20.12 | fungus | The Plant kingdom does not. |
| 18:20.22 | fungus | That is my philosophy |
| 18:20.28 | goozbach | carrots can fight back |
| 18:20.34 | goozbach | peanuts are doing so right now |
| 18:20.39 | mindjuju | yes, that's true |
| 18:20.42 | TodPunk | lazy carrots |
| 18:20.46 | mindjuju | i hear peanut alergies are up |
| 18:20.50 | goozbach | have you noticed the high number of peanut alergies? |
| 18:20.56 | mindjuju | yup |
| 18:20.59 | goozbach | most fatal or at least serious |
| 18:21.15 | goozbach | carrots *CAN* fight back, they just need to get too it |
| 18:21.23 | fungus | But that just illustrates my example of my ability to state my personal philosophies when TodPunk still refuses to answer/explain his! |
| 18:21.37 | fadein | what about all of those people in Thailand? What happens when one of them develops a peanut allergy? |
| 18:22.00 | mindjuju | so fungus, a company playing hardball and taking a legal option to scare off people it is acting in its own self interest |
| 18:22.13 | TodPunk | it is |
| 18:22.15 | mindjuju | and that is a two way street |
| 18:22.28 | mindjuju | people often sue, and companies settle because they don't want to deal with the $$ |
| 18:22.34 | mindjuju | just settle out of court and move on |
| 18:22.36 | fungus | But that doesn't really explain about a corporations social responsibilities |
| 18:22.38 | mindjuju | both parties do it |
| 18:23.09 | fungus | From what I have read, TodPunk seems to think corporations have zero social responsibilities |
| 18:23.19 | mindjuju | so perhaps a better question would be then, fungus, what social responsibilities would you like to impose on corporations? |
| 18:23.27 | fungus | They just do whatever is in their own best interests. |
| 18:24.13 | mindjuju | sure, we all entities act in their own best interest |
| 18:24.17 | TodPunk | typically "they" is a group of individuals who server a much larger variety of interests than can be easily quantified, mind you |
| 18:24.48 | mindjuju | you eat carrots, i eat meat (though i am eating less meat these days) |
| 18:25.18 | fungus | TodPunk, in most legal definitions corporations are a separate entity from their members. |
| 18:25.34 | TodPunk | fungus: yes, but without members, they tend to not do anything =cP |
| 18:25.39 | fungus | So in most contexts corporations must be treated as an individual themselves |
| 18:26.01 | TodPunk | so really if we're defining interests of a corporation, we're talking about the interests of decision makers at whatever level is relevant. |
| 18:26.16 | fungus | An example of a social responsibility of a corporation: BP cleaning up it's own oil spill |
| 18:26.37 | mindjuju | hmm, i'd quatify that is MINIMAL social responsibility |
| 18:26.51 | fungus | They likely don't "legally" have to do it, but it's a responsibility all the same |
| 18:26.53 | mindjuju | but i'm interested in what attributes fungus would like to see corporations have |
| 18:26.55 | TodPunk | Keep in mind that in the context of this discussion, individuals like speakers at blackhat are also acting in their own self-interests, and I think if they're just releasing a security flaw, there should be a bit of due process that happens. |
| 18:27.12 | mindjuju | well, that's not quiet try |
| 18:27.22 | mindjuju | i'm sure the US would sue BP pretty quick |
| 18:28.03 | mindjuju | if they didn't start to clean up, that is |
| 18:28.04 | TodPunk | I think some have altruistic desires, have already contacted the company to rectify the flaw in question, been unheard or inacted upon, and are releasing it to educate and to solicit action appropriate. These usually also suggest fixes to aid in that process where applicable. |
| 18:28.25 | fungus | Attributes of social responsibility of a corporation: similar to most individuals, honesty, respect for fellow individuals, etc |
| 18:29.01 | TodPunk | fungus: yes, but I'd sue someone if they were going to go to a convention and talk about how I slept with their sister or something. |
| 18:29.09 | fungus | TodPunk, social responsibility != self-interests |
| 18:29.53 | fungus | What if they were going to talk about your serial raping |
| 18:30.15 | TodPunk | that's a different context. If a corporation is doing something illegal, that's totally different. |
| 18:30.43 | fungus | Some security flaws can harm many many other people |
| 18:30.56 | TodPunk | A more realistic scenario is they are going to expose a flaw in my AC that lets you poison everyone inside from outside or something. |
| 18:30.56 | fungus | and education is the only way to mitigate them unless a fix is provided |
| 18:31.44 | fungus | responsibility to be honest and try to prevent harm to others |
| 18:32.16 | fungus | Purposefully silencing a dangerous security flaw's publication is wrong |
| 18:33.05 | TodPunk | I'd also like to point out that most of the speakers at these conventions do not have that intent. They're typically doing it to feel powerful, gain respect in a specific community, notariety, etc. Altruism is not often the only characteristic, if it's there at all. |
| 18:33.58 | TodPunk | This I can agree with: <fungus> Purposefully silencing a dangerous security flaw's publication is wrong if all other avenues for preventing that danger from becoming a reality have been taken before publishing. |
| 18:34.35 | TodPunk | Is that fair for me to say? |
| 18:37.27 | TodPunk | In unrelated news, and the thing I'm actually paying attention to, I can NOT get this JIRA installed. ARGH! |
| 18:44.37 | fugue88 | TodPunk: JIRA? I can never figure out how to navigate that thing. |
| 18:44.47 | fugue88 | likes Trac though |
| 18:45.31 | Gate | TodPunk: lol, I am working with JIRA (user only, though) |
| 18:45.40 | Gate | all my tasks for this month are stored in it |
| 18:45.43 | TodPunk | I've used it in the FreeSWITCH instance, but I'm setting it up for my projects now and had a dickens of a time setting it up |
| 18:46.27 | TodPunk | Apparently the Java SDK VM had some memory limits it was hitting. Why it needs 128m to START UP, I will never know. |
| 18:47.36 | Gate | TodPunk: because its Java |
| 18:47.45 | Gate | my dev JBOSS takes 1GB |
| 18:48.28 | TodPunk | JaveEE specifically. Regular ole Java apps don't seem so bad. |
| 18:48.56 | fugue88 | Wow, that even beats an empty Oracle install! |
| 18:49.09 | fugue88 | (~600MB *active* RAM use) |
| 18:49.26 | TodPunk | Oracle: "IMMA CHARGIN MA LAZER!" |
| 18:51.25 | TodPunk | goes to get something to eat |
| 19:29.27 | fadein | bet you aren't surprised to see Sen. Hatch's name on this legislation: and had a dickens of a time setting it up |
| 19:29.32 | fadein | crap |
| 19:29.41 | fadein | http://bit.ly/azO7FM |
| 19:29.59 | fadein | stupid bit.ly said that was in the clipboard |
| 19:30.53 | TodPunk | interesting |
| 19:33.01 | fadein | now I'm not familiar with Obama's/FCC's position, but judging by the pack of luddites pushing this bill, I'm not interested in seeing it pass |
| 19:33.27 | fadein | most likely, the white house and these GOPpers both have it wrong |
| 19:33.27 | TodPunk | "This legislation represents a valuable addition to the debate over how best to modernize the regulatory framework governing broadband services and how best to continue policies that promote growth of broadband and the development of innovative Internet services," McSlarrow said. |
| 19:33.36 | TodPunk | That entire statement means absolutely nothing |
| 19:33.52 | TodPunk | he could have said "Yay" and had just as much substance |
| 19:34.12 | fadein | TodPunk: totally. my eyes glazed by the time I reached 3rd line |
| 19:34.48 | fadein | i'll print that out for the next night I can't fall asleep. quotes like that are potent tranquilizers |
| 19:35.05 | fadein | actually, that may in fact be their strategy: put the opposition to sleep |
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