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| 15:40.00 | BLZbubba | this channel is too noisy, i can't keep up |
| 15:41.27 | Gate | it takes a special kind. |
| 15:41.44 | Gate | You could always start a debate with sjansen. |
| 15:47.05 | BLZbubba | sjansen: less filling!! |
| 15:47.22 | BLZbubba | or maybe you whippersnappers are too young to remember the annoying miller lite commercials |
| 15:51.05 | eightyeight | even better, the fact that every time you rode 'pirates of the carribean' at laggon, you would hear the argument as each end of the ship peaked |
| 15:51.31 | eightyeight | "tastes great!" "less filling!" "tastes great!" "less filling!" ad nauseum |
| 16:02.23 | sjansen | BLZbubba: Who you calling a whippersnapper young man? |
| 16:03.02 | sjansen | Now get off my lawn! |
| 16:05.21 | elg | levi: http://pastie.org/1053851 is the makefile in question. It used to be some 250 lines longer and wholly impossible to navigate |
| 16:05.41 | elg | autotools would definitely not be an improvement in this admittedly nontraditional case. |
| 16:07.21 | sjansen | It's hard to imagine any situation in which autotools is an improvement. |
| 16:10.03 | goozbach | autotools... that's a couple of weeks I wish I could get back |
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| 16:25.09 | Gate | hates java |
| 16:28.04 | fugue88 | ~lart java for being hated |
| 16:28.04 | ibot | explains, ever so gently, that if java doesn't give the channel more information, they can't help for being hated |
| 16:30.56 | BLZbubba | Gate: heh what did java do to earn your hatred? |
| 16:31.26 | BLZbubba | apart from general suckitude |
| 16:36.13 | ljenkins | Does anyone know Dave King? http://www.defcon.org/html/defcon-18/dc-18-speakers.html#King He might be a local Utah guy |
| 16:59.19 | epp | i was already asked that |
| 16:59.20 | epp | haha |
| 17:16.25 | sjansen | http://www.urlesque.com/2010/07/21/obama-martial-law-onion/ |
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| 18:51.56 | Gate | BLZbubba: a) no pointer control and $@!&&* GC. b) Tomcat c) JBOSS d) JBOSS e) JBOSS f) JBOSS g) general suckatude. |
| 18:52.14 | Gate | Oh yeah, and JBOSS |
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| 19:02.47 | TodPunk | levi: I love your well-thought-out and presented opinions and how they're just walked all over for the most minor of presentation holes that could be construed in other ways xD |
| 19:12.01 | tristanbob | http://transmission.xmission.com/2010/07/21/qwest-xmission-and-dsl |
| 19:22.25 | sjansen | levi: I share your opinion; I also feel like everyone is out to get me. We should start a band. |
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| 19:38.33 | TodPunk | tristanbob: that article lacks any action items, essentially making it politically charged whining. I agree with the article, but I don't think it will help much of anything, and possibly hurt xmission's image. |
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| 19:43.03 | blendmaster1024 | Migs, haha! |
| 19:43.08 | blendmaster1024 | pokes Migs again |
| 19:45.06 | Gate | Anyone here use the ISP SkyWire? |
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| 19:55.10 | tristanbob | TodPunk, yeah, I think part of it was venting. you can ask pashdown for more details if interested. |
| 19:56.58 | pashdown | hola |
| 19:59.29 | fugue88 | I've been thinking about the infrastructure issue for a little while too. It's very frustrating that we have all of this copper hanging over my city on city poles, but I'm locked in to one provider. |
| 19:59.55 | fugue88 | I agree that the municipal copper/fiber route is the way to go, and rent access to ISPs. |
| 20:00.38 | fugue88 | And... he's gone. |
| 20:01.15 | goozbach | see! that's what happens when you don't control the network... you get netsplit |
| 20:01.46 | fadein | Everybody is a free-market capitalist until it comes to competition |
| 20:02.20 | fugue88 | fadein: Competition? Or lack of it? |
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| 20:03.41 | fadein | fugue88: that's why there is so little of it. Concast and Qworst are the staunchest proponents of our free-market system, after all |
| 20:04.49 | *** join/#utah blendmaster1024 (~blendmast@unaffiliated/blendmaster1024) |
| 20:04.57 | fadein | fugue88: any system that rewards lock-in as a valid business model is good enough for them, and should be good enough for us |
| 20:05.12 | blendmaster1024 | what article? |
| 20:05.13 | blendmaster1024 | what is qwest doing? |
| 20:06.37 | sjansen | blendmaster1024: It was revealed that iPhone 4 antenna problems were part of QWest's plot sell recycled spaghetti as "fiber". |
| 20:06.50 | blendmaster1024 | sjansen, typical. |
| 20:06.54 | blendmaster1024 | but seriously? |
| 20:06.56 | fadein | I don't see what you're all complaining about. you're internets are way faster than dial up, and only 6x the cost. and a shill on the glenn beck show said that we already have many choices. so does the VP of the Utah Taxpayers Assoc. |
| 20:07.32 | blendmaster1024 | what article?????? |
| 20:07.48 | fadein | blendmaster1024: http://transmission.xmission.com/2010/07/21/qwest-xmission-and-dsl |
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| 20:10.52 | blendmaster1024 | pashdown ... IDIOT!!!!!!!! |
| 20:11.02 | blendmaster1024 | you don't regulate it, you unregulate it! |
| 20:11.33 | blendmaster1024 | the problem is that they have a government monopoly! if they didn't have that, you could just lay you own xmission lines!!!!! |
| 20:11.56 | blendmaster1024 | is very angry and plans never to use xmission |
| 20:12.08 | blendmaster1024 | also plans to talk them bad |
| 20:12.16 | peno | did you even read it? |
| 20:12.24 | blendmaster1024 | peno, yes, it's the ending! |
| 20:12.24 | goozbach | I don't think he did... |
| 20:12.50 | fugue88 | ~facepalm blendmaster1024 |
| 20:12.51 | ibot | ACTION paints blendmaster1024 's face with crushed heart of palm |
| 20:12.54 | blendmaster1024 | "the solution is to build municipal networks *and regulate that they can only use those*" |
| 20:12.57 | blendmaster1024 | no!!!! |
| 20:13.13 | peno | thinks blendmaster1024 is on the UTA's payroll |
| 20:13.16 | fugue88 | blendmaster1024: The problem is that it's insanely expensive to hand or bury lines. |
| 20:13.22 | *** join/#utah pashdown (pashdown@sine.xmission.com) |
| 20:13.44 | fugue88 | Much better to have muni or some muni-based & regulated company hang a single set, charge access fees to any willing providers. |
| 20:13.44 | blendmaster1024 | fugue88, yes, partly because it's just hard, but also because the government regulates it. |
| 20:14.00 | fugue88 | The cable *is* the market, instead of the poles being a market. |
| 20:14.01 | blendmaster1024 | pashdown, seriously? |
| 20:14.04 | Gate | and now pashdown is here to defend himself. |
| 20:14.14 | fugue88 | blendmaster1024: No, it's just plain expensive. metal == $$$$ |
| 20:14.15 | Gate | he has spies in #utah! |
| 20:14.20 | blendmaster1024 | " the solution for this is not only to build municipal fiber networks like UTOPIA, but to regulate all data, telephone, and television providers that would otherwise run their own lines to your house, into using these systems as well" |
| 20:14.42 | goozbach | blendmaster1024: do you get upset when munis build roads and we all use them? |
| 20:14.54 | goozbach | infrastructure is infrastructure |
| 20:15.06 | blendmaster1024 | goozbach, not as much, but I think that that should be changed too. not as immediate a problem, however. |
| 20:15.08 | TodPunk | blendmaster1024: that's what it says. The position being that it would be a level playing field, since everyone's using the same lines at the same price. |
| 20:15.28 | blendmaster1024 | oh. my. god. |
| 20:15.30 | goozbach | we are regulated to use our roads (failure to maintain lane) |
| 20:15.38 | TodPunk | Then qwest would not be selling access to copper, they'd be selling service, so they'd have to get their stuff together or fail |
| 20:15.44 | fugue88 | Don't get me wrong, I'm all for "capitalism" in situations such as these. Instead of muni taxing every citizen to build a road many don't want, let those who want it willingly buy in with bonds/shares or something, and earn back from its use. |
| 20:15.50 | goozbach | private roads would be a mess/expensive |
| 20:15.54 | fugue88 | Same thing could happen with copper & fiber. |
| 20:16.22 | fugue88 | goozbach: I respectfully disagree. |
| 20:16.25 | blendmaster1024 | fugue88, yes, but let's do it with private roads. |
| 20:16.29 | blendmaster1024 | fugue88++ |
| 20:16.30 | TodPunk | fugue88: that's the model of a lot of bridges and whatnot. Works fine. But doesn't work fine for something that EVERYONE wants to use regularly. |
| 20:16.57 | TodPunk | goozbach: they're already NOT a mess/expensive |
| 20:17.09 | Migs | http://i32.tinypic.com/qn72ph.jpg |
| 20:17.12 | blendmaster1024 | TodPunk, do we get a 100.0% vote yes every time when voting to build a major road? |
| 20:17.20 | blendmaster1024 | if yes, your argument is sound. |
| 20:17.24 | blendmaster1024 | otherwise, **** off. |
| 20:17.34 | goozbach | imagines that ya'll haven't driven on a toll road in NJ or TX |
| 20:17.40 | goozbach | or GA for that matter |
| 20:18.06 | TodPunk | blendmaster1024: that is the worst misunderstanding of representative voting I've ever heard. Thank you for illustrating your level of ability to discuss adult topics. You can go back to the playground now. |
| 20:18.27 | TodPunk | goozbach: Illinois and Boston's bridges, not to mention the Bay Area. |
| 20:18.33 | pashdown | blendmaster1024, we had private roads across this country up until the 50's |
| 20:18.37 | sjansen | gives blendmaster1024 a lollipop and a pat on the head |
| 20:18.37 | pashdown | they were a huge failure |
| 20:18.39 | blendmaster1024 | TodPunk, ohhhhhh..... |
| 20:19.02 | blendmaster1024 | TodPunk, you don't get what I was saying. you said everyone wants to use. you just can't say that. |
| 20:19.19 | pashdown | do you grow your own food? do you make your own clothes? |
| 20:19.27 | blendmaster1024 | so what I was saying, do we ever - EVER? - get EVERYONE agreeing? |
| 20:19.33 | TodPunk | your inability to express yourself accurately without MISrepresenting yourself is not a disfunction on my part. |
| 20:19.33 | blendmaster1024 | pashdown, no, i *buy* them. |
| 20:19.34 | goozbach | imagines a 17 lane private road built by one company, and how it interfaces with the 1lane major road built by smalltown(tm) |
| 20:19.39 | pashdown | you use the roads |
| 20:20.12 | fugue88 | got lost who's arguing what about two turnpikes ago. |
| 20:20.22 | pashdown | unless you're the unibomber, you're using taxpayer funded infrastructure |
| 20:20.46 | TodPunk | Toll sections of roads/bridges condense the cost of that infrastructure to the ones using the infrastructure directly, which makes commutes on a bridge a daily expense. It's pretty bad for those using it, but great for those not using it ever. |
| 20:20.50 | sjansen | blendmaster1024: It's so *cute* that you think the market solves all problems. |
| 20:20.53 | pashdown | but then again, the unibomber is in a taxpayer funded prison now |
| 20:20.54 | blendmaster1024 | disengages from this ridiculous conversation |
| 20:21.06 | goozbach | reads http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-market_roads |
| 20:21.15 | fugue88 | follows goozbach's link |
| 20:21.24 | TodPunk | Municipal internet infrastructure basically puts the burden of that infrastructure on those that use it. |
| 20:21.34 | goozbach | TodPunk: well said |
| 20:21.42 | goozbach | if you don't use it, you don't pay for it |
| 20:21.54 | goozbach | (given a proper bond/share structure) |
| 20:21.59 | sjansen | blendmaster1024: Are you enjoying your summer break? If you're old enough, you try summer camp. It's awesome! |
| 20:22.02 | TodPunk | It's worked fine for UTOPIA, but doesn't get profitable, because not enough people use it. That and UTOPIA lays it incredibly expensively. |
| 20:22.19 | pashdown | iProvo laid it cheap |
| 20:22.24 | pashdown | and it blows |
| 20:22.29 | sjansen | blendmaster1024: Enjoy your childhood while you can. Things get complicated fast when you grow up. |
| 20:22.31 | TodPunk | A middle ground would be nice. |
| 20:22.43 | Gate | blendmaster1024: I have been trying to build a cogent picture of your argument, but I have now decided that it is just that time of the month. |
| 20:22.50 | pashdown | the middle ground is that all providers buy into it |
| 20:22.55 | fadein | TodPunk: how long will it take UTOPIA to become profitable? probably not fast enough for the UTA and their ilk |
| 20:22.59 | pashdown | rather than building their own |
| 20:23.14 | TodPunk | The materials aren't that expensive, and if you avoided union labor, it could be very cost effective and if managed right it would be awesome quality stuff. |
| 20:23.18 | pashdown | when will our highways and airports turn a profit damnit! |
| 20:23.45 | TodPunk | fadein: yes, but that's a different demand and demographic model as well. |
| 20:23.53 | blendmaster1024 | Gate, no, I just have stated way too little to build a picture. |
| 20:24.01 | pashdown | TodPunk, i've paid for studies on this. any way you cut it, good fiber will cost upwards of $4K a home. |
| 20:24.42 | fugue88 | pashdown: What about copper? |
| 20:24.43 | TodPunk | pashdown: that's not too bad over 10 years, but that doesn't cover bandwidth costs very well. |
| 20:24.47 | blendmaster1024 | pashdown, then offer to charge $4k a home? once it's laid, the cost is very little, correct? |
| 20:24.49 | goozbach | sjansen: explaning the fallicies he's using would be more productive than tearing him down |
| 20:24.53 | pashdown | copper won't support what we need in the next decade. |
| 20:25.03 | TodPunk | copper doesn't support what we need NOW |
| 20:25.17 | fugue88 | pashdown: Not even in (cesnored)'s fttn model? |
| 20:25.24 | pashdown | blend, if it cost you $10K to get a paved road out in front of your house, would you pay it? |
| 20:25.54 | blendmaster1024 | pashdown, probably. |
| 20:25.58 | Gate | blendmaster1024: well, my evidence stemmed from the fact you began with insulting a rather intelligent man and ended by withdrawing when challenged |
| 20:26.04 | pashdown | and would all your neighbors? |
| 20:26.12 | goozbach | people don't, there's half-paved roads all over my home town |
| 20:26.15 | goozbach | it's annoying |
| 20:26.17 | pashdown | our survey of affluent slc shows that most have no clue and wouldn't |
| 20:26.21 | sjansen | goozbach: Assuming I thought blendmaster1024 was capable of anything other than mindless parroting or tired old arguments that have already been disproven by real world experience. |
| 20:26.29 | blendmaster1024 | pashdown, I have no idea. it seems likely that they would not understand what was going on and say no. |
| 20:26.38 | pashdown | therein lies the problem |
| 20:26.39 | TodPunk | Qwest's model is an interesting one from a tech standpoint. Makes it more affordable from all sides, but doesn't leave much to expansion down the road. |
| 20:26.51 | pashdown | either we all bear the cost, or we live with dirt roads |
| 20:26.56 | fugue88 | Holy cow, stop the ad hominem's already. |
| 20:27.15 | blendmaster1024 | pashdown, well, ok then. so we can't have private roads. |
| 20:27.42 | TodPunk | pashdown: the way the big bells did it back in the day with copper was on government grants, and a significant investment period of decades. It pays off well if you look at it from that standpoint. |
| 20:27.55 | blendmaster1024 | I don't think the reasoning you're using is valid because it's assuming that people would understand why it would be advantageous and why it would not for them to pay for the road. |
| 20:27.56 | TodPunk | I think people need to start looking at it like that. |
| 20:28.08 | TodPunk | I don't know how we do that while avoiding the monopoly situation though. |
| 20:28.24 | pashdown | the same way we don't have a monopoly on shipping |
| 20:28.26 | TodPunk | Unless you suddenly turn government regulators (as opposed to politicians) into sound investors. |
| 20:28.29 | pashdown | everyone uses the same infrastructure |
| 20:28.35 | blendmaster1024 | if they paid for the one road, there would be very little else they would have to pay for. little to no taxes going that direction. |
| 20:28.38 | sjansen | Once upon a time sewer and water was also considered optional. Chamber pots and outhouses were good enough for even the wealthy. I say we should have stayed in those simpler times instead of using everyone's tax to dig pipes they might not even want! |
| 20:29.08 | pashdown | blend, i don't understand. you still have to pay taxes for infrastructure in the road. |
| 20:29.19 | fadein | blendmaster1024: and thanks to marketing, anybody with Concast service who isn't a techie already thinks she's getting "high speed", and won't find it advantageous to have UTOPIA |
| 20:29.33 | pashdown | fadein++ |
| 20:29.33 | TodPunk | blendmaster1024: you've been paying for every road in your area for your entire working life. |
| 20:29.40 | blendmaster1024 | TodPunk, I'm 15. |
| 20:29.54 | pashdown | well in that case, you're welcome |
| 20:29.58 | TodPunk | I have reached enlightenment! |
| 20:29.58 | blendmaster1024 | TodPunk, I've been talking as though I owned a home because that's how I plan to behave when I do. |
| 20:30.08 | TodPunk | like a child? |
| 20:30.15 | fugue88 | I'm in kind of an in-between situation right now. I live on a private lane. In the next few years I'll be paying ~5K for resurfacing. I have one neighbor on this lane. It was built without taxes, but only 2 families had to agree to it. |
| 20:30.20 | TodPunk | I know a lot of homeowners, you'll fit right in. |
| 20:30.50 | pashdown | fugue, but that lane connects to a municipal road, right? |
| 20:31.04 | goozbach | get a 5/1 ARM and try to re-sell in 4.7 years |
| 20:31.21 | fugue88 | pashdown: It does, agreed. Like I said, it's an in-between situation. Just saying it's not entirely black and white. |
| 20:31.26 | TodPunk | pashdown: my initial complaint about the article wasn't the content, it was the lack of a tail-end of an action item. Quite necessary in that sort of a venting session, I think. |
| 20:31.28 | goozbach | ohh and make sure it's $200-300k more than what you can afford |
| 20:31.34 | goozbach | then just walk away from it |
| 20:32.06 | pashdown | i don't know if you got my comment earlier, but the article was more of a "this is what qwest is doing" rather than "organize the armies". |
| 20:32.32 | pashdown | that and i really think there is very little we can do other than support the concept of municipal fiber |
| 20:32.37 | TodPunk | Didn't see that, probably because of the netsplit, or my own glazing over. Thanks. |
| 20:33.12 | fugue88 | pashdown: Agreed, muni is the most effective option at this point. |
| 20:33.13 | Gate | pashdown: the person over my should has insisted that I ask: do you have fiber to your house? |
| 20:33.28 | pashdown | no, i have 3Mbit DSL |
| 20:33.37 | Gate | Damn, same as me. |
| 20:33.40 | blendmaster1024 | pashdown, by the way, what is what we have now if not municipal communications, with the exception of new stuff like fiber? |
| 20:33.41 | pashdown | i live in the salt lake digital ghetto |
| 20:33.42 | fugue88 | xmission I hope ;) |
| 20:33.44 | TodPunk | I have 7, I'm SO glad I got it. |
| 20:33.49 | Gate | Quest won't give me more... jerks. |
| 20:34.04 | pashdown | blendmaster1024, private lines |
| 20:34.11 | sjansen | pashdown: The tone I got was "Meh. We're being forced to change how we do business, and it'll suck for the consumer. We've tried our best, and we'll survive, but it looks like we're doomed to lose this battle." |
| 20:34.16 | blendmaster1024 | so comcast has all their own lines? |
| 20:34.20 | TodPunk | blendmaster1024: you don't have any municipally owned communications infrastructure if you're in Utah. |
| 20:34.20 | fugue88 | blendmaster1024: Comcast controls the coax hanging from my poles. No other provider has access. |
| 20:34.23 | pashdown | sjansen that is pretty spot on |
| 20:34.25 | TodPunk | yes, they do |
| 20:34.27 | goozbach | I've got 6Mbit DSL but it's been kinda spotty |
| 20:35.09 | fadein | I can't even get qwest DSL in my neighborhood because the phone lines are too old |
| 20:35.30 | pashdown | changing our business is normal. if i'd stuck with 5 14.4K modems and no employees, its pretty obvious what would have happened. |
| 20:35.40 | blendmaster1024 | TodPunk, that explains where I had bad information. |
| 20:36.14 | fadein | so I get to choose between tweedle-dumb and one of the wireless services (who's wireless towers are connected to the internet through... qwest) |
| 20:36.21 | goozbach | bellsouth controls the copper to my home, others have access, but at nasty-high prices |
| 20:36.22 | sjansen | blendmaster1024: If you haven't read Atlas Shrugged, you should. You'll love it. But let me warn you know it'll make you even more unbearable and somewhere in your thirties you'll realized it seduced you into living a lie for half your life. |
| 20:36.29 | blendmaster1024 | sjansen, I've read it through three times. |
| 20:36.37 | sjansen | Thought so. |
| 20:36.38 | TodPunk | blendmaster1024: you may also be unaware that power, gas, and in some areas even water/sewage are also privately owned. |
| 20:36.50 | pashdown | and i don't know any wireless that goes over 7Mbit |
| 20:37.19 | sjansen | You have the distince tone of someone who takes Rand as gospel truth instead of simpleminded propaganda. |
| 20:37.24 | TodPunk | And Digis sucks. SO bad. |
| 20:37.47 | blendmaster1024 | suddenly gets why google is doing the fiber experiments |
| 20:38.04 | blendmaster1024 | they'll blow everyone away so easily .... |
| 20:38.05 | sjansen | Too bad about the next couple decades. There's probably not much you can do to avoid it at this point. |
| 20:38.44 | goozbach | sjansen: Rand != gospel? |
| 20:38.51 | Gate | pashdown: I am just talking to a new ISP that is claiming 20 M burst wireless |
| 20:39.00 | goozbach | prepares to have his world view shattered |
| 20:39.03 | goozbach | :) |
| 20:39.10 | TodPunk | Gate: that the skywire you were talking about? |
| 20:39.23 | fadein | blendmaster1024: where did you come by that information? who told you that comcast/quest presently uses muni lines? |
| 20:39.33 | Gate | yes, wondering if anyone has any experience |
| 20:39.37 | Gate | I am... concerned. |
| 20:39.48 | Gate | wireless in this area tends to end badly. |
| 20:39.50 | blendmaster1024 | fadein, I called comcast. their phone people are just clueless I guess. |
| 20:39.55 | fadein | blendmaster1024: or did you come up with that on your own (not trying to be condescending; genuinely curiuosu) |
| 20:39.55 | blendmaster1024 | or the one I got was. |
| 20:39.59 | TodPunk | I'm going to guess that, like Digis, they have serious throttling issues and can't keep their connection stable. |
| 20:39.59 | fadein | blendmaster1024: oh |
| 20:40.44 | goozbach | Gate: my parent's wireless isn't bad, but it's 1Mbit |
| 20:40.53 | fadein | blendmaster1024: think about this the next time to call comcast: my sister worked as a tier 1 tech for them. Her supervisor threatened to let her go each month because her *sales* stats weren't high enough. |
| 20:40.55 | Gate | goozbach: is it on SkyView? |
| 20:40.57 | TodPunk | Anyone ever worked with/for One on One Marketing? |
| 20:41.13 | blendmaster1024 | fadein, holy wow |
| 20:41.20 | goozbach | it's the *ONLY* option in their town, outside of hugesnet |
| 20:41.30 | fadein | blendmaster1024: their callcenter drones aren't there to be helpful. They exist to upsell or to get you off the phone ASAP so they can sell to the next in queue |
| 20:41.34 | goozbach | Gate: don't know the name |
| 20:42.10 | Gate | goozbach: is it in the Washington/Iron county area? |
| 20:42.11 | sjansen | blendmaster1024: Don't listen to him. The profit motive is the only source of righteous behavior. |
| 20:42.21 | fadein | blendmaster1024: and that one you spoke to was clearly lying to you, or speaking through a posterior orifice because of lack of a script |
| 20:42.31 | Gate | sjansen: maybe not, but it is the most reliable. |
| 20:42.32 | goozbach | Gate: Beaver County |
| 20:42.34 | goozbach | west side |
| 20:42.57 | blendmaster1024 | sjansen, that's not what rand said. and I sure you *you* don't think that. |
| 20:43.26 | goozbach | number one reason I get out of bed each day: feed my family |
| 20:43.32 | TodPunk | installing JIRA is a pain |
| 20:43.34 | goozbach | that's the profit motive |
| 20:43.44 | goozbach | no work, no eat |
| 20:43.47 | blendmaster1024 | goozbach, no, that's the "living for your family motive" |
| 20:44.01 | TodPunk | profit is a variable definiton, not always involving currency |
| 20:44.08 | blendmaster1024 | the profit motive is "I do something someone wants well, they pay me for it" |
| 20:44.13 | goozbach | (and I'm too proud to ask for handouts) |
| 20:44.20 | Gate | Altruism, "brotherly love" and most other motives break down and are superceeded by the desire to survive in dire circumstances. |
| 20:44.27 | fugue88 | give goozbach an unsolicited handout |
| 20:44.27 | blendmaster1024 | *and there is a cache: it doesn't have to be money that's paid |
| 20:44.43 | goozbach | blendmaster1024: I do good work as a QA Engineer, someone sees that as profitible, I get paid, buy food, my family eats |
| 20:44.51 | goozbach | my family eating is my #1 motive |
| 20:45.01 | blendmaster1024 | goozbach, are you being sarcastic? |
| 20:45.13 | blendmaster1024 | I can't tell and want to answer seriously. |
| 20:45.28 | goozbach | it doesn't hurt that I don't have to cause harm to others, or be underhanded/illegal/other in order to feed my family |
| 20:45.41 | pashdown | i understand somalia has a completely unregulated market right now |
| 20:45.52 | goozbach | another "plus" is the fact I get to work with open source software. |
| 20:46.13 | blendmaster1024 | goozbach, no, seriously, are you being sarcastic, or do you mean this? |
| 20:46.23 | goozbach | but trust me, I'd go to work for Microsoft selling/using/supporting windows ME before I'd let my family starve |
| 20:46.29 | goozbach | blendmaster1024: 100% serious |
| 20:46.52 | sjansen | blendmaster1024: Which of goozbach's statements are confusing you? They all seem pretty clear and reasonable. |
| 20:46.58 | goozbach | (MS would be *AFTER* I got fired at McDonalds) |
| 20:47.12 | blendmaster1024 | sjansen, yes, but he had started in a way that made it seem like sarcasm. |
| 20:47.18 | blendmaster1024 | holy crap it's been two hours ... |
| 20:47.27 | blendmaster1024 | drops two hours of his timesheet and goes back to work |
| 20:47.31 | blendmaster1024 | off* |
| 20:47.51 | blendmaster1024 | goozbach, I'd like to take this up later, perhaps tomorrow evening |
| 20:47.56 | blendmaster1024 | if you want ... |
| 20:48.05 | goozbach | blendmaster1024: I chose that example to prove that everything is a profit motive (to me) |
| 20:48.19 | goozbach | I'm leaving on a jet plane tomorrow evening, so no |
| 20:48.27 | goozbach | but someday soonish |
| 20:48.33 | goozbach | get back to work |
| 20:48.37 | goozbach | because work == money |
| 20:48.42 | goozbach | *ALWAYS* |
| 20:48.55 | sjansen | Assuming it isn't some kinda con. |
| 20:49.10 | goozbach | it supprises me that more people don't understand this |
| 20:49.31 | goozbach | it should be child abuse if your children don't understand that concept by the time they graduate high school |
| 20:49.49 | sjansen | When it comes Utah's many MLMs, work == getting screwed. |
| 20:49.50 | goozbach | sjansen: even if you get conned into doing work, it equals money for the con artist |
| 20:50.26 | fadein | is always frustrated by folks who ask for help to pay the gas bill when they have a brand-new rent-to-own 42" flatscreen with cable in their parlor |
| 20:50.29 | goozbach | MLMs are work=money |
| 20:50.56 | sjansen | Only if you realize work == sign up friends. |
| 20:50.59 | goozbach | you just have to know that an MLM is *NOT* in the business of selling hair brushes |
| 20:51.01 | sjansen | Not work == sell crap. |
| 20:51.10 | fugue88 | rent-to-own == -money |
| 20:51.26 | goozbach | it's in the busniess of recruting and training sales force |
| 20:51.31 | blendmaster1024 | "pour me a heavy dose of atmosphere ..." such a weird band |
| 20:51.47 | goozbach | if you work at that, (recruting) == money in an MLM |
| 20:52.03 | goozbach | (a fun side effect is your newfound lack of friends) |
| 20:52.15 | TodPunk | work is not always money. Most work is unproductive and some is purely for self-enjoyment without any monetary attachment to it ever. |
| 20:52.32 | goozbach | TodPunk: then it isn't work |
| 20:52.36 | goozbach | it's a hobby :) |
| 20:52.49 | fugue88 | TodPunk: If you live in France, all work == money, even if nobody wants your work. |
| 20:53.01 | blendmaster1024 | fugue88, I don't know if I want to know. |
| 20:53.17 | fugue88 | blendmaster1024: It's not much. |
| 20:53.24 | fugue88 | I had a coworker from France. |
| 20:53.27 | TodPunk | hobbys are the classification one could attribute to some kinds of work one does with the lack of an express payment goal. |
| 20:53.31 | TodPunk | *hobbies |
| 20:53.32 | sjansen | Not to be pedantic, but the actual definition of work is "forces times distance". |
| 20:53.46 | fugue88 | The general opinion is that if somebody does work, they deserve pay. Even if it's work that nobody directly wants. |
| 20:53.48 | TodPunk | sjansen: less dictionary, more communication |
| 20:54.05 | sjansen | TodPunk: You got me. I was being pedantic. :-P |
| 20:54.26 | blendmaster1024 | fugue88, ahhhh. that's what the entirety of atlas shrugged is about debunking :) |
| 20:54.44 | goozbach | http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/work def: 1b |
| 20:55.00 | fugue88 | Of course, as goozbach alludes too, that attitude is becoming very engrained in America as well. |
| 20:55.03 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@cpe-071-065-252-161.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 20:55.03 | *** mode/#utah [+v emcnabb] by ChanServ |
| 20:55.06 | fugue88 | blendmaster1024: ^^ |
| 20:55.16 | goozbach | I work in a welfare city/county |
| 20:55.18 | sjansen | No, Atlas Shrugged was about forcing other people to give society the product of their work on societies terms. |
| 20:55.20 | TodPunk | wow, out of 11 possible, you choose HALF of one that it must always be xD |
| 20:55.30 | goozbach | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:55.40 | blendmaster1024 | sjansen, have you read it? o.O |
| 20:55.57 | goozbach | *snigger* |
| 20:56.18 | sjansen | blendmaster1024: Well duh. I was yound and simpleminded once too. |
| 20:56.55 | goozbach | now he's old and a curmagersdfsdf*OUcHdonthitmewithyourcane* |
| 20:57.06 | blendmaster1024 | goozbach, haha |
| 20:57.43 | sjansen | There is truth to *parts* of what Rand says. The trick is noticing how much of her description of the real world is a lie. |
| 20:58.13 | sjansen | In context, her arguments needed to be made. |
| 20:59.06 | BLZbubba | she was a polemicist; completely divorced from reality |
| 20:59.13 | BLZbubba | but interesting to think about |
| 20:59.15 | sjansen | There really were people who thought that the most productive in society should provide absolute support for the least capable simply by virtue of some being strong and others being weak. |
| 20:59.17 | TodPunk | Out of context, this man is actually a giraffe |
| 20:59.39 | fugue88 | Nice :) |
| 20:59.40 | *** join/#utah harleypig (~harleypig@harleypig.com) |
| 20:59.46 | sjansen | The problem is, that just as she argued against one extreme falsehood she fell into another extreme falsehood. |
| 20:59.47 | TodPunk | oh |
| 20:59.48 | TodPunk | my |
| 20:59.50 | TodPunk | word |
| 20:59.52 | redbeard_work | ~kick harleypig |
| 20:59.53 | ibot | ACTION kicks harleypig |
| 20:59.53 | TodPunk | RUN |
| 20:59.59 | sjansen | And dragged a lot of people down along the way. |
| 21:00.08 | blendmaster1024 | hits harleypig with a bat |
| 21:00.14 | blendmaster1024 | die, pig! |
| 21:00.19 | goozbach | no need for violence! |
| 21:00.22 | blendmaster1024 | oh oops. |
| 21:00.30 | blendmaster1024 | say sorry to harleypig's corpse |
| 21:00.38 | goozbach | ~whaledefend harleypig |
| 21:00.39 | ibot | ACTION encases goozbach in a hermetically sealed, protective sphere of blubber, while a muscular whale named Otto defends goozbach from all attacks |
| 21:00.53 | goozbach | not exactly what I wanted |
| 21:00.56 | TodPunk | Eat flaming lead, fascist media pigs! |
| 21:00.58 | *** part/#utah harleypig (~harleypig@harleypig.com) |
| 21:01.04 | TodPunk | xD |
| 21:02.09 | blendmaster1024 | we got him! |
| 21:02.19 | blendmaster1024 | hehe I hope he understood it was a joke |
| 21:02.27 | redbeard_work | he didn't even see it, apparently |
| 21:02.44 | sjansen | blendmaster1024: Joke? Joke?! |
| 21:02.56 | blendmaster1024 | oh I guess I did kill him |
| 21:02.57 | sjansen | I've already reported you to Department of Homeland Security. |
| 21:03.13 | fugue88 | That makes me feel secure about my homeland. |
| 21:03.37 | blendmaster1024 | writes down: "never, ever kill anyone with sjansen. heck, just never kill anyone. unless they're sjansen." |
| 21:03.47 | blendmaster1024 | with sjansen around* |
| 21:03.55 | sjansen | Is that a threat? |
| 21:04.00 | sjansen | Are you threatening me? |
| 21:04.11 | blendmaster1024 | sjansen, do you want it to be? if you really want it to be, it can |
| 21:04.12 | sjansen | You are _so_ going to end up in Guantanomo! |
| 21:04.27 | goozbach | strapped to a waterboard |
| 21:04.28 | blendmaster1024 | but only if you want it to be. you're going to have to ask *nicely*. |
| 21:04.40 | Gate | blendmaster1024: anyone who comes into IRC either would understand that joke, or they shouldn't be here. |
| 21:04.47 | Gate | oh.... wait.... |
| 21:04.54 | sjansen | ~echelon fodder |
| 21:04.55 | ibot | it has been said that echelon fodder is Bush, Uranium, Dirty Bomb, Jihad, Allah Akbar, TNT, Rent a van, assassination , NSA, wiretaps, sleeper cell, suicide bomb, vest, Oklahoma City, Waco, revenge, anthrax, virgins, fuse, great celebration, July 4th, detcord, martyr, timer, backpack, subway. Ruby Ridge, or kill all infidels |
| 21:05.20 | Gate | sigh. |
| 21:05.34 | sjansen | accuses blendmaster1024 of luring innocent bots into terrorist plots |
| 21:06.02 | blendmaster1024 | Gate, I'm aware ;) |
| 21:07.18 | *** join/#utah bgerber (~gerberb@suse103.zenez.com) |
| 21:10.37 | sjansen | What I don't understand is why anyone would choose to read Atlas Shrugged more than once. |
| 21:11.00 | sjansen | It's powerful propaganda, but horribly long winded and boring prose. |
| 21:11.24 | orsonj | I think I read that the summer I read a foot and a half of books |
| 21:11.37 | orsonj | about half of it was Orson Scott Card |
| 21:12.07 | sjansen | A foot and a half of card isn't as challenging. Much lighter and more enjoyable. |
| 21:12.12 | goozbach | orsonj: only 1.5'? |
| 21:12.30 | TodPunk | I think that may be more books than I've ever actually ready |
| 21:12.32 | TodPunk | -y |
| 21:12.37 | goozbach | when I was working for gurulabs I read that every month and a half |
| 21:13.02 | sjansen | Now if that foot and a half was the complete works of Ayn Rand, followed by War and Peace and Deer Slayer five times _that_ would be an accomplishment. |
| 21:13.12 | orsonj | no kidding |
| 21:13.20 | goozbach | my brain broke contemplating that |
| 21:13.26 | orsonj | one of Ayn Rand's books is plenty |
| 21:13.37 | orsonj | Alghough I've though about reading the fountainhead |
| 21:13.39 | goozbach | should read shrugged |
| 21:13.47 | goozbach | haven't even cracked the cover |
| 21:13.57 | goozbach | but I'm not too interested in it nowdays |
| 21:14.08 | goozbach | I think I'll re-read Harry potter or somesuch |
| 21:15.46 | sjansen | If you want something shorter by Rand, Antham is survivable. |
| 21:16.00 | sjansen | s/Antham/Anthem |
| 21:16.00 | orsonj | I liked the Gibraltar series: http://www.scifi-az.com/gibraltar2.htm |
| 21:17.36 | sjansen | I suspect part of the reason I survived Rand with only a couple years of damage was Catch-22 had inoculated me to the power of literature to cause mental illness. |
| 21:18.27 | sjansen | Of perhaps the fact I was reading Vonnegut at about the same time. |
| 21:18.28 | Gate | If you can be "damaged" by literature I suspect mental illness may already be present |
| 21:18.31 | JoshH | likes having utopia |
| 21:18.35 | goozbach | that's another that I've not read |
| 21:19.05 | sjansen | I can't recommend Vonnegut strongly enough. |
| 21:19.29 | sjansen | But don't start with Slaughterhouse Five. I don't understand why everyone goes gaga over it. |
| 21:19.47 | sjansen | My favorites are Cat's Cradle and Timequake. |
| 21:20.08 | Gate | sjansen: I am actuall breifly curious if you have read Beggrs in Spain? |
| 21:20.38 | sjansen | Gate: Nope, not familiar with it. |
| 21:21.14 | sjansen | Nancy Kress? First I've heard of her. |
| 21:21.25 | Gate | Nancy Kress wrote it. It proposed an interesting view of society. |
| 21:21.40 | TodPunk | JoshH: I hate you. |
| 21:22.01 | JoshH | TodPunk: i made sure my house could get it before i even went to look at it |
| 21:22.14 | Gate | I am still in progress of reading Rand, but Kress seems (thus far) to be a less nutty and more realistic perspective |
| 21:22.24 | TodPunk | Someday I will just pay 2k a month for my own DS3 |
| 21:22.38 | Gate | Of course, Beggars is the only Kress I have ever read |
| 21:22.46 | JoshH | although my current cisco 2600 can only do about 33 megs each way, poor me :( |
| 21:22.56 | JoshH | i need to switch my router to a linux box |
| 21:23.02 | TodPunk | *twitch* |
| 21:23.48 | sjansen | I'll help you hide the body if I can keep a couple servers in the closet. |
| 21:27.21 | sjansen | Oh come on! Everyone's just gonna let that sentence hang in space indefinitely, slowly increasing the number of witnesses? |
| 21:27.53 | Tene | sjansen: You remember that time you told me about your detailed plan to get away with killing someone and disposing of the corpse? |
| 21:27.57 | sjansen | Come of people. Someone's gotta help bury my confession under a mountain of rants or something. |
| 21:28.44 | sjansen | Tene: No, I don't and thank you your advice was very helpful. |
| 21:31.31 | JoshH | TodPunk: is dsl all you can get now? |
| 21:32.25 | TodPunk | JoshH: no, I can totally get Comcast too. In fact, I'm on it right now at my parents house three houses away, and it's actually quite nice. 20 mbtit down, 4 up. My DSL I can't complain about though. 7 down, .864 up. |
| 21:32.37 | TodPunk | xmission, of course |
| 21:33.08 | goozbach | awesome |
| 21:33.33 | JoshH | you could always pay a lot and get bonded dsl with xmission |
| 21:33.53 | JoshH | (mlppp) |
| 21:34.51 | TodPunk | Yeah, I have enough issues justifying the landline I already have. I don't need a second I'll never ever justify. |
| 21:35.17 | TodPunk | Plus, I really don't want to know if my house wiring is incapable of that second line. They did some funky stuff and I doubt it is. |
| 21:36.21 | *** join/#utah elg (~fugalh@38.99.102.165) |
| 21:36.21 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 21:39.17 | sjansen | http://i.imgur.com/dNpEP.png |
| 21:39.22 | JoshH | not sure what you mean by landline, but you can get dsl without phone service, if you didn't know |
| 21:39.37 | blendmaster1024 | JoshH, not with qwest |
| 21:39.48 | JoshH | yes, you can with qwest |
| 21:39.51 | JoshH | they call it standalone |
| 21:39.58 | JoshH | maybe not if qwest is your isp |
| 21:40.05 | blendmaster1024 | well, yeah |
| 21:40.14 | blendmaster1024 | you can get pure xmission if you want |
| 21:41.16 | TodPunk | JoshH: yes, but I still have to pay qwest 35 bucks for a second line, even without phone service. |
| 21:41.39 | TodPunk | That was justifyable when I was using that for our phone anyway. |
| 21:44.17 | TodPunk | I'm pretty sure that should be justifiable, but I'm too lazy to doublecheck at the moment |
| 21:44.58 | JoshH | the thing about comcast is that you do get a nice download speed, and recently, decent upload |
| 21:45.27 | JoshH | but your packets still take a ridiculous path, you can't get a static ip, no reverse dns, ports randomly blocked if you have a server, etc |
| 21:45.34 | JoshH | so the geek appeal beyond speed is pretty much nonexistent |
| 21:46.12 | JoshH | and i don't know if they still mess with your torrents or not |
| 21:46.22 | TodPunk | yes, if you want to host something in your house, it's not good. This is why I haven't switched. My parents, however, are a-ok with it. |
| 21:46.39 | JoshH | i like how they are moving forward with ipv6 though, and their network engineers that i've met at conferences are pretty good guys |
| 21:46.56 | *** join/#utah bonez2046 (~bonez@173-14-239-229-Utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 21:47.03 | TodPunk | truth be told, now that I have a server in a colo, I only use my home server for things I want to break constantly |
| 21:48.06 | TodPunk | Someday I'd really like to start diving into ipv6 |
| 21:51.31 | JoshH | ya, i don't have any real public stuff served from home these days |
| 21:52.00 | Gate | I have DSL with no phone, Qwest's copper |
| 21:52.19 | Gate | They assigned a tele# though |
| 21:52.22 | sjansen | TodPunk: Here's a fun place to start http://ipv6.he.net/certification/ |
| 21:52.41 | TodPunk | sjansen: Someday was the operative word in that sentence. |
| 21:53.13 | sjansen | Don't say I never gave you nothing. |
| 21:53.26 | sjansen | Bookmark it or spit in my face. |
| 21:53.31 | sjansen | I don't give no nevermind. |
| 21:53.41 | TodPunk | spits in Gate's face |
| 21:53.54 | TodPunk | just because |
| 21:54.24 | sjansen | weeps slowly into his hands, hoping silently that no one notices his pain |
| 21:55.52 | Migs | when is ipv8 going to be invented? |
| 21:56.09 | Migs | someone better get on that |
| 21:56.12 | Heartsbane | sjansen already invented it |
| 21:56.17 | Migs | oh |
| 21:56.29 | Heartsbane | he will tell you all about it |
| 21:56.36 | sjansen | But I'm keeping it to myself. |
| 21:56.39 | Migs | well, that sucks. I thought I could get filthy rich. |
| 21:56.42 | sjansen | Now get off my Internet! |
| 22:14.56 | Gate | TodPunk: oh I agree. I viciously hate Qwest |
| 22:49.25 | BLZbubba | comcast business is about the best choice where i am |
| 23:06.08 | *** part/#utah mrklaw1 (~Massaglia@216.49.181.128) |
| 23:07.04 | eightyeight | wow |
| 23:07.15 | eightyeight | i leave the window for one minute, and look what happens |
| 23:07.24 | fugue88 | mrklaw1 left? |
| 23:08.09 | eightyeight | 5 pages of scrollback, all about liberal, commie, marxist speak of roads, internet and sjansen |
| 23:08.35 | fugue88 | That was a very civil summary. :) |
| 23:09.46 | Heartsbane | lol |
| 23:19.53 | Nafai | y |
| 23:21.31 | sjansen | b-cuz |
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| 23:29.40 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 23:41.07 | levi | Hmm, someone mentioned me, but it's gone from my scrollback. |
| 23:41.34 | levi | I assume it was sjansen making reference to my PLUG list posts, or something like that. I'll have to check the logs... |
| 23:44.43 | levi | Hmm, no logs for today. |
| 23:44.56 | levi | ibot: Why aren't you logging? |
| 23:44.57 | ibot | why not? |
| 23:44.59 | sjansen | You'll have to wait for the end of the day UTC. |
| 23:45.04 | levi | Ahh. |
| 23:45.45 | levi | Well, I probably won't care by then. :) |
| 23:45.50 | sjansen | It was TodPunk expressing solidarity. |
| 23:46.04 | eightyeight | ah logging |
| 23:46.33 | eightyeight | i keep every channel log locally, as well as a split window showing any highlights i might have missed while away |
| 23:46.45 | sjansen | I paraphrased his comment a couple minutes later. |
| 23:46.45 | eightyeight | not to mention, the scrollback was substantially increased |
| 23:46.51 | eightyeight | ⥠irssi |
| 23:46.55 | levi | I used to, but I wasted too much time reading scrollback. |
| 23:47.14 | sjansen | levi: I share your opinion; I also feel like everyone is out to get me. We should start a band. |
| 23:48.09 | levi | sjansen: Everyone is out to get me?! |
| 23:48.20 | levi | hides. |
| 23:48.41 | eightyeight | pay no attention to sjansen. it's just the voices in his head |
| 23:49.51 | sjansen | eightyeight: I thought you knew me well enough to know that if and when I lose it, I won't hear voices I'll see IRC traffic. |
| 23:50.10 | eightyeight | nah. you don't linger in irc enough |
| 23:53.05 | sjansen | True. Maybe it'll be in the form of Slashdot posts then. |
| 23:54.59 | eightyeight | struggling to find a good 4-bay diskless nas |
| 23:56.13 | fungus | http://www.drobo.com/products/drobo-fs.php |
| 23:56.50 | sjansen | I've heard some bad things about Drobo recovery and support. |
| 23:57.22 | eightyeight | fungus: do you have one? |
| 23:57.34 | fungus | I have no experience, I just want one badly |
| 23:58.09 | eightyeight | http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822102026&cm_re=diskless_nas-_-22-102-026-_-Product |
| 23:58.17 | eightyeight | is what i'm looking at currently? |
| 23:58.20 | eightyeight | s/?/./ |
| 23:58.33 | peno | I've got two 16TB drobos sitting on my desk at work. one of them had hardware issues right out of the box, coupled with two drives that are doa. |
| 23:59.30 | eightyeight | i'll get my own drives |
| 23:59.37 | eightyeight | i just want the chassis |
| 23:59.48 | peno | the drives are 2TB WD blacks. |
