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| 14:55.43 | sjansen | We're losing to Slovenia? |
| 14:55.47 | sjansen | Slovenia?! |
| 14:55.53 | sjansen | Bah! |
| 14:59.57 | goozbach | sjansen: are you watching soccer? |
| 15:00.04 | goozbach | why do you hate freedom? |
| 15:00.21 | goozbach | why do you emasculate your country so? |
| 15:00.28 | goozbach | ?! |
| 15:04.16 | sjansen | Freedom clashes with my scarf. |
| 15:05.20 | goozbach | wait a minute.... you own a scarf... |
| 15:05.35 | goozbach | the beard... the scarf.... the condesenting attitude... |
| 15:05.44 | fugue88 | He's a terrorist! |
| 15:05.44 | goozbach | sjansen: YOU'RE A HIPSTER!!!! |
| 15:06.14 | fugue88 | Oh, a hipster, yeah. |
| 15:06.25 | goozbach | I've seen him in flannel |
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| 15:07.00 | sjansen | goozbach: Nope, sorry, you're wrong. I don't wear ironic glasses. |
| 15:07.31 | fugue88 | It's ironic that such a hipster wouldn't wear ironic glasses, don't you think, goozbach? |
| 15:08.08 | goozbach | fugue88: I do concur |
| 15:08.29 | sjansen | Okay, I bow to your social pressure. |
| 15:08.35 | sjansen | But think of the consequences. |
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| 15:09.01 | sjansen | Now I'm going to have to force you to read my cat poetry. |
| 15:09.20 | *** topic/#utah by goozbach -> logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/#utah | UTOSC 2010 Call for Papers - http://ping.fm/HEx4C | news flash: sjansen admits to being a hipster |
| 15:09.41 | goozbach | bowing to socal pressure! SEEE I told you he was a hipster! |
| 15:13.09 | sjansen | Okay, you asked for it... |
| 15:13.28 | sjansen | Fat Cat, Corporate Cat |
| 15:13.35 | sjansen | A poem by sjansen. |
| 15:13.41 | sjansen | Grey and white tabby, |
| 15:13.42 | sjansen | Mewing on my back porch, |
| 15:13.42 | sjansen | What have you got in your mouth? |
| 15:13.42 | sjansen | Cruel cat! Trapped in your jaws |
| 15:13.43 | sjansen | a desperate, middle class mouse. |
| 15:13.45 | sjansen | Fat cat! Corporate cat! So |
| 15:13.47 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:13.49 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:13.51 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:13.53 | sjansen | you can not fill yourself |
| 15:13.55 | sjansen | with the bones of the underclasses. |
| 15:15.32 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:15.48 | goozbach | *slow* *clap* |
| 15:17.49 | sjansen | Could I interest you in "Ode to the hairball my cat coughed up Thursday, Dec 12th at about 3:26pm"? |
| 15:18.23 | sjansen | My cat puked up a hairball |
| 15:18.23 | sjansen | on my left shoe. |
| 15:18.23 | sjansen | My dancing shoe. |
| 15:18.23 | sjansen | I'll never dance again. |
| 15:18.24 | goozbach | maybe after lunch |
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| 15:20.10 | TehLaser | Ode to a Small Lump of Green Putty I Found in My Armpit One Midsummer Morning, by Grunthos the Flatulent. |
| 15:21.10 | sjansen | How wonderful! You're familiar with my primary inspiration. |
| 15:21.22 | sjansen | Perhaps some of your own poetry to share? |
| 15:23.30 | sjansen | What did you think of of epic poem "I Found A Rotting Cabbage Between the Folds Of My Belly Aat, And What Happened After"? |
| 15:24.39 | TehLaser | The dead swans lay in the stagnent pool. |
| 15:24.46 | TehLaser | They lay. They rotted. They turned |
| 15:24.50 | TehLaser | Around occasionally. |
| 15:24.55 | TehLaser | Bits of flesh dropped off them from |
| 15:24.57 | TehLaser | Time to time. |
| 15:25.03 | TehLaser | And sank into the pool's mire. |
| 15:25.07 | TehLaser | They also smelt a great deal. |
| 15:25.48 | TehLaser | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:26.09 | TehLaser | (* actual poet and poem of a classmate of Douglas Adams) |
| 15:28.39 | TehLaser | Later fictionalized to Paula Nancy Milstone Jennings of Greenbridge, Essex when the poet in question objected. |
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| 17:56.08 | sjansen | http://cacm.acm.org/blogs/blog-cacm/94307-are-you-invisible/fulltext |
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| 18:07.23 | sinuhe | sjansen: True, though drawing a balance with humility seems counter intuitive. It also means that those who lead are not necessarily those who should lead. |
| 18:09.13 | sjansen | Who said anything about humility? |
| 18:09.28 | sjansen | Being invisible != being humble. |
| 18:10.13 | unum | thinking your bad at stuff you're good at!=humility |
| 18:10.46 | fugue88 | thinking you're bad at stuff == modesty, duh. |
| 18:10.48 | fugue88 | :) |
| 18:10.49 | bonez2046 | what's opposite.. thinking your good at stuff you stink at? |
| 18:11.02 | sjansen | thinking you're bad at stuff == inferiority complex |
| 18:11.35 | fugue88 | s/stuff/stuff you're good at/ |
| 18:12.03 | sjansen | Modesty is not shoving it down everyone's throught when you know you're good at something. |
| 18:12.19 | sjansen | Modesty is not thinking you're the only one that's good at something when you're good at it. |
| 18:12.38 | fugue88 | forgot the sarcasm quotes |
| 18:13.27 | unum | knowing your good at something is ok, thinking that makes you a "better" person is the problem |
| 18:15.57 | sjansen | Not recognizing that there is such a thing as a "better" person is also a problem. |
| 18:16.24 | sjansen | In the US we believe that all men are _created_ equal. |
| 18:16.48 | sjansen | But as we start making decisions, we don't stay equal. |
| 18:17.14 | unum | I tend to agree more with adams wording |
| 18:17.30 | unum | I think all men should be equal before the law |
| 18:17.41 | unum | and all are equal in the eyes of God |
| 18:17.55 | unum | I guess I don't like the economic slant some have taken that to |
| 18:18.03 | unum | we were not all created equal economicly |
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| 18:53.40 | levi | In the only sense that we really are all equal, we do definitely stay that way regardless of decisions. |
| 18:54.14 | unum | agreed |
| 18:55.29 | levi | And the sentiment is really more of a statement of Enlightenment philosophy than it is of religious sentiment. |
| 18:59.29 | maquis | looks at all the crazy philosophers in the channel |
| 19:05.56 | fugue88 | That's a nice insight, levi. |
| 19:11.27 | levi | Of course, Englightenment philosophers were heavily steeped in a religious culture, so there are definitely religious antecedents to the idea. |
| 19:14.43 | fugue88 | I was talking about equal properties staying equal, regardless of decisions. |
| 19:14.56 | levi | Anyway, the "created equal" thing always makes me think of Kant's second formulation of his categorical imperative. |
| 19:15.30 | fugue88 | Yeah, sure, me too. :) |
| 19:15.41 | fugue88 | has never read Kant |
| 19:16.20 | levi | Well, I haven't read very much of him, but I have learned a bit about his moral philosophy. |
| 19:16.35 | maquis | levi: hmmm... you're above my head too.. i only know the parts of the categorical imperitave that I learned for debate... |
| 19:16.38 | maquis | deontology |
| 19:17.44 | levi | He came up with the idea of a categorical imperative, which said (roughly) that you should only do things that would make sense if everyone were to do them. |
| 19:17.45 | maquis | and the most common argument against all deontology, which is the question of whether it would be okay to lie to save someone's life (aka, the jews in the attic argument) |
| 19:18.15 | maquis | levi: yeah... means-based morals, as opposed to ends-based morals |
| 19:18.30 | maquis | tries to remember the name of ends-based morality |
| 19:18.54 | maquis | teleology... |
| 19:18.55 | maquis | that's what it is |
| 19:18.59 | levi | Well, deontology is literally 'duty-based' or 'rule-based' |
| 19:19.05 | maquis | yeah |
| 19:19.17 | maquis | so, if the rule is "do not lie", then it is never okay to lie |
| 19:19.54 | maquis | i tend to be slightly deontological, but the main issue is that it very quickly gets you stuck in a corner |
| 19:20.26 | rsimpkins | I seem to recall a similar discussion on the radio the other day when the subject of capital punishment came up amongst on-air pundits. I was just as lost. |
| 19:20.49 | levi | Religious people tend to be deontological. |
| 19:21.04 | maquis | if you argue that lying is wrong, under deontology, you are saying that it is *never* okay to lie |
| 19:21.23 | maquis | but, what if lying can save somebody's life, and telling the truth will kill an innocent person? |
| 19:21.27 | levi | Not necessarily. |
| 19:21.49 | maquis | teleology would argue that in that case, you morally should lie, and that telling the truth would be morally wrong |
| 19:22.01 | maquis | levi: explain? |
| 19:22.54 | levi | Well, consider the situation where duties/rules come into conflict. |
| 19:23.19 | maquis | okay |
| 19:24.13 | levi | If you have a ranking for your duties, you may consider it okay to violate one in order to fulfill another. |
| 19:25.13 | levi | And someone may be primarily deontological, but not an absolute one. |
| 19:25.21 | maquis | so, let's say you're an army officer, and you know that sometimes, children approaching a base are carrying bombs (this happened in vietnam) |
| 19:25.54 | maquis | you see a young child approaching your base, and he keeps approaching even though you've told him to stop |
| 19:26.08 | maquis | what do you do? |
| 19:26.41 | levi | Where are you going with this? |
| 19:26.46 | maquis | i agree that you can be primarily deontological, but not absolutely, and i think that's where I am) |
| 19:27.07 | maquis | levi: just discussing one of the most interesting ethical dilemmas that i've heard of in the real world |
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| 19:27.57 | maquis | there's a few ethical dilemmas that I like to consider... |
| 19:28.32 | levi | Sure, but we're wandering pretty far from the meaning of "created equal". |
| 19:28.34 | maquis | I wouldn't want to have to make the decisions, but I wonder sometimes what decision I would have made had it been me in the situation |
| 19:29.00 | maquis | oh... sorry... i wasn't following the whole discussion... just dropped in toward the end and saw the stuff about kant... and got sidetracked :) |
| 19:29.24 | maquis | ethical dilemmas do that to me |
| 19:31.18 | maquis | actually, looking back, i'm not sure where the equality thing came in |
| 19:31.46 | levi | I was saying that the second formulation of the categorical imperative includes an argument for the absolute worth of humanity. And really, the only way that we are truly equal is that we are all human, and thus we fall under the arguments that are provided for human worth, inalienable rights, etc. in Enlightenment philosophy. |
| 19:33.18 | levi | Different people certainly have different values as "means", or as tools for others to use for their gain, but Kant argues that by virtue of our humanity, we should be always treated as "ends" in ourselves, and not only as "means". |
| 19:34.45 | maquis | levi: so, lives are counted 1 for 1? |
| 19:34.52 | levi | No. |
| 19:35.07 | maquis | what does he mean by treating us as ends? |
| 19:35.37 | levi | That we can't assign some arbitrary value to a human being. |
| 19:35.46 | maquis | did really try to read the critique of pure reason once.... it didn't work |
| 19:35.59 | maquis | or was it critique of practical reason? |
| 19:36.05 | levi | Yeah, he's not really easy to read. |
| 19:39.01 | levi | Or rather, he means that the value of humanity is intrinsic rather than contingent. |
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| 19:40.37 | maquis | :) |
| 19:42.02 | levi | Our value does not depend on our ability to act as someone's means to another end. |
| 19:42.58 | rsimpkins | levi: Tell my boss that. ;-) |
| 19:43.48 | levi | Well, he does not say that we can't consider someone's value as a means, only that we must consider their intrinsic worth as well. |
| 19:48.01 | rsimpkins | Can we use social media sites to calculate an indivual's total worth to society? |
| 19:48.30 | maquis | rsimpkins: lol |
| 19:48.36 | fugue88 | Would that be an inverse relationship? |
| 19:48.39 | maquis | ~seen Jayce^ |
| 19:48.41 | ibot | jayce^ is currently on #utos (2d 57m 5s) #utah (2d 57m 5s). Has said a total of 6 messages. Is idling for 23h 2m 50s, last said: 'since you have the direct contacts'. |
| 19:48.54 | levi | Now you're getting teleological on us. :) |
| 19:49.16 | rsimpkins | if you have only 3 friends, you might not get that liver transplant you need. ;-) |
| 19:49.46 | fugue88 | Depends on their blood type... |
| 19:49.47 | maquis | rsimpkins: current worth, or future worth? |
| 19:49.48 | fugue88 | :) |
| 19:50.36 | maquis | my daughter's future worth to society might not be all that high since she's not old enough to contribute much aside from making family happy, but her future worth could be very high (at least i think so) |
| 19:51.06 | maquis | also, the problem with trying to determine someone's worth is nearly impossible |
| 19:51.14 | maquis | any action could have who knows how many consequences. |
| 19:51.18 | rsimpkins | We can infer her worth based on your worth. |
| 19:51.34 | levi | A tool to calculate one's worth to socieity would only be useful in the context of teleological ethics, in which the calculation would have some moral weight. |
| 19:52.04 | rsimpkins | levi: I will gladly line up to get my UPC barcode tattoo. |
| 19:52.13 | maquis | maybe you smiled at some guy on the street, and that made him feel less hopeless about the world so he didn't end up committing suicide, and in another 10 years was able to find a solution to world hunger |
| 19:52.25 | maquis | what's your worth in that situation? |
| 19:52.47 | rsimpkins | maybe a single butterfly flaps its wings at the equater, and it creates a hurricane that kills 2000 people. |
| 19:52.55 | fugue88 | lol |
| 19:53.07 | maquis | appreciates the mental stimulation here... mommy playgroups never get into this type of discussion |
| 19:53.54 | rsimpkins | Besides, we all know the solution to world hunger... |
| 19:53.54 | levi | But the solution to world hunger causes a population boom, massive overpopulation, crime, and disease as well as exhausting of non-food resources and makes everyone generally unhappy. ;) |
| 19:53.58 | fugue88 | maquis: Good question. What if you hadn't smiled? Would somebody else have done so, and had the same effect, it did the outcome rely on you specifically? ... |
| 19:54.01 | rsimpkins | Soylent Green! |
| 19:54.23 | fugue88 | s/, it did /, or did / |
| 19:54.36 | maquis | fugue88: we will never know :) |
| 19:54.48 | maquis | which is part of what makes teleology so confusing |
| 19:54.59 | fugue88 | I'll just rest assured know that I *may* have contributed to ending hunger. |
| 19:55.13 | maquis | if you only look at the ends to determine ethics, then you run into trouble because you don't know the ends |
| 19:55.44 | fugue88 | And you end up with lots of guilt from weather phenomena. |
| 19:55.49 | maquis | lol |
| 19:55.51 | macnewbold | to me ethics is more about means than ends. becaues you can have a perfectly ethical end that is brought about by an unethical means, which to me is unethical. |
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| 19:56.30 | maquis | macnewbold: you mean... preventing a terrorist attack by torturing a terrorist's child to get the terrorist to divulge information? |
| 19:56.46 | maquis | i agree... |
| 19:57.10 | levi | What if you're following the wrong rules, though, and they end up leading to mass unhappiness? |
| 19:57.16 | maquis | ends-based ethics cause all types of problems |
| 19:57.35 | maquis | but means-based ethics causes tons of problems too |
| 19:57.35 | levi | Absolutist ethics cause all types of problems. |
| 19:57.46 | maquis | ethics causes problems |
| 19:57.47 | maquis | there |
| 19:57.54 | maquis | we should all go be unethical |
| 19:57.57 | fugue88 | Blanket statements cause problems. |
| 19:58.16 | levi | Well, considering ethics generally solves more problems than it causes, I think. |
| 19:58.39 | maquis | :) |
| 19:58.45 | maquis | levi: true |
| 19:59.26 | maquis | but trying to rigidly follow any particular ethical philosophy without taking the opposite view into consideration is troublesome |
| 19:59.34 | levi | Right. |
| 20:00.18 | levi | And rigidly following deontological ethics leaves one particularly blind to the ultimate ends of whatever rules you may be following. |
| 20:00.58 | maquis | i think sometimes you just have to have faith that as long as you're doing your best to do the right thing (and pray about it, if aren't sure what the right thing is), you can trust that you'll get some credit for trying to be ethical |
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| 20:01.38 | levi | (considering that deontology includes divine command, and not everyone who claims to be a divine mouthpiece really is) |
| 20:02.02 | maquis | levi: true |
| 20:02.51 | maquis | that's part of why i think it's essential that, if you're going to believe the divine command section, you also need the belief that you can receive the inspiration for yourself, rather than having blind trust in someone who claims to be a divine mouthpiece |
| 20:03.02 | maquis | being able to have confirmation is essential |
| 20:04.30 | levi | Yes, assuming that there's actually a divine being who has a consistent ethical system and is confirming correct principles to those who ask. Otherwise, it's just people doing what they hope is the right thing. ;) |
| 20:04.49 | maquis | levi: sure... |
| 20:05.34 | maquis | it reminds me of an interesting book i read a number of years ago about 3 LDS boys in nazi germany |
| 20:05.42 | maquis | they formed a small opposition against hitler |
| 20:05.42 | levi | If the divine being has a consistent ethical system, it is hopefully discoverable and defensible by mortals, who can then persuade others to follow it without appeal to divinity. |
| 20:06.14 | maquis | some of their ward members were extremely against it (and actually, some turned them in) due to the fact that we believe in obeying the laws of the land |
| 20:06.45 | maquis | there will always be situations where ethical/moral rules conflict, and in those points, you have to make the best choice you can |
| 20:07.12 | maquis | we believe in obeying the laws of the land, and we believe in not supporting racial discrimination |
| 20:07.28 | maquis | if racial discrimination is required by law, then which one is more important |
| 20:09.11 | elg | an interesting choice |
| 20:09.21 | elg | since the law was ahead of the church on the matter of race. |
| 20:14.10 | maquis | elg: true. in the US, we had the opposite, although to a much lesser degree |
| 20:15.21 | maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:15.28 | maquis | fun discussion, though |
| 20:20.29 | macnewbold | i think that based on a particular set of ethics, actions could be considered are right or wrong, or ethical or not, while the results aren't ethical or not, they simply are what they are, or by a particular set of values or goals, could be identified as good or bad, positive or negative |
| 20:25.47 | elg | england tied again |
| 20:26.09 | elg | and us too I guess. |
| 20:26.10 | levi | Well, in teleological ethical systems, the results are what you use to identify the rightness or wrongness of the actions. Thus, the ethical system must be primarily concerned with the rightness or wrongness of outcomes. |
| 20:43.05 | levi | One of the interesting things about Kantianism is that it's not even the actions themselves that are judged by the ethics; it's the intentions. Two people may perform the same action, but only the one motivated by the will to do the right is ethical. |
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| 21:49.12 | maquis | levi: i thought that waas someone else? |
| 21:50.43 | maquis | I generally agree with intent-based ethics, because I think it's the only ethical system that someone could actually follow, and I think that the intent behind our actions will be an importat part of how we are judged. |
| 22:17.12 | levi | maquis: I'm sure he's not the only one who argued along those lines. |
| 22:18.19 | JoshH | mark shurtleff is quite a character |
| 22:18.22 | JoshH | http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/us_and_canada/10348685.stm |
| 22:19.29 | levi | And I don't think it's the only ethical system you could actually follow, but it does make it easier to judge how well you're following, at least if you're honest about your intentions, which is not always easy. |
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| 22:25.43 | JoshH | "We will be streaming live my press conference as soon as I'm told Gardner is dead. Watch it at www.attorneygeneral.Utah.gov/live.html" he wrote. |
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