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| 19:17.32 | tyce | anyone know how to check the mod_python version currently installed? |
| 19:18.02 | tyce | *if it's not being shown in the apache error_log (where it normally would) |
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| 19:43.11 | sjansen | rpm -q mod_python |
| 19:46.52 | goozbach | rpm -e bash |
| 19:47.11 | goozbach | oops I meant: apt-get remove dash |
| 19:47.37 | goozbach | sorry bash, I still love you |
| 19:47.42 | goozbach | twas a slip of the fingers |
| 19:49.04 | sjansen | Sure it was. |
| 19:49.23 | sjansen | You're part of the vast zsh conspiracy, aren't you? |
| 19:49.43 | sjansen | Why do you hate our free-bourne-ness? |
| 19:50.52 | goozbach | no I really don't |
| 19:51.06 | goozbach | I haven't even ran zsh since my time at gurulabs |
| 19:51.13 | goozbach | and that was only to demo chsh |
| 19:53.37 | sjansen | A likely story FOR A SUBVERSIVE ZSH MOLE! |
| 19:53.48 | goozbach | no I'm not |
| 19:53.54 | goozbach | you can read my bash_history... |
| 19:53.57 | goozbach | I promise! |
| 19:54.05 | goozbach | or look at my dotfiles repo! |
| 19:57.35 | fungus | wonders if goozbach puts his .ssh dir in the repo too |
| 19:57.59 | goozbach | fungus: nope |
| 19:58.18 | goozbach | well my authorized_keys file is... |
| 19:58.20 | goozbach | :) |
| 19:58.24 | fungus | bummer |
| 19:59.15 | fungus | but aren't you worried someone will steal your authorized_keys and copy them all over their servers? :P |
| 20:00.20 | goozbach | yes, worried is the word I would use :) |
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| 20:37.40 | sjansen | Used carefully, Perl really is an awesome language. |
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| 21:55.21 | rsimpkins | I seem to recall that several local geeks who happen to have kids have also chosen alternative education options for them (private school, home school, etc). Did I mis-read that? |
| 21:58.52 | sjansen | http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/05/lifelock-identity-theft |
| 21:59.24 | JoshH | my kids will go public |
| 22:03.06 | macnewbold | rsimpkins: we've done homeschool and charter school (a form of public school) |
| 22:03.47 | rsimpkins | macnewbold: Which one did you like? |
| 22:04.16 | macnewbold | i have liked both. they were doing well with homeschool, but we found out about a bilingual charter school (spanish and english) that we have really liked too |
| 22:04.30 | macnewbold | i speak spanish but my wife doesn't, so teaching them that at home would have been hard |
| 22:04.38 | macnewbold | but at school they spend 90% of their time working in spanish |
| 22:04.43 | blendmaster1024 | what?? |
| 22:04.52 | fugue88 | que? |
| 22:04.54 | blendmaster1024 | what did i do? why did you highilight me? |
| 22:05.39 | macnewbold | I have two sons that have been there two years now (currently 3rd grade and 1st grade) and they're rocking, on or above grade level in spanish reading/writing and way above grade level in english reading/writing, etc. |
| 22:06.23 | macnewbold | and being a charter, it's as free (financially) as any public school would be since it is funded just like other public schools pretty much. |
| 22:07.09 | fugue88 | beer or speech? |
| 22:07.39 | macnewbold | fugue88: free as in root beer |
| 22:07.43 | fugue88 | :) |
| 22:07.57 | rsimpkins | I knew someone who ran a charter school, he said it was pretty hard to make ends meet. |
| 22:08.13 | macnewbold | yeah, it can be challenging... you don't have a district to back you up |
| 22:08.15 | fugue88 | Do charter schools' funding essentially come from the same source then (i.e. the government)? |
| 22:08.26 | rsimpkins | I guess they actually hired a corporation to run the school - like a company that specializes in running charter schools. |
| 22:08.37 | macnewbold | starting out is hardest, because you have a lot of startup costs that you don't get extra money for, and have to start up a whole new non-profit etc. |
| 22:08.49 | macnewbold | districts can launch new schools much more easily because they already have resources |
| 22:09.10 | macnewbold | rsimpkins: yeah, management companies are a somewhat common option. there are at least 2-3 around here that do it |
| 22:09.24 | macnewbold | fugue88: yeah, funding comes from teh state at a per-student rate based on enrollment, |
| 22:09.33 | macnewbold | plus there are some federal funding thigns you can get, |
| 22:09.36 | macnewbold | grants, |
| 22:09.37 | macnewbold | etc. |
| 22:10.07 | fugue88 | Do they feel the same curricula pressure that public schools do, their funding being essentially the same? Stuff like no-child-left-behind, &c? |
| 22:10.33 | macnewbold | they have a lot more freedom (as in speech) to do different things, but still ahve a contract (the charter) with the state |
| 22:10.44 | fugue88 | Ahh. |
| 22:10.46 | rsimpkins | fugue88: The guy I knew said his biggest challenge was keeping teacher/student ratios reasonable. |
| 22:10.46 | macnewbold | there are a lot of different curricula ideas that get used though |
| 22:10.58 | macnewbold | yeah, ours has <=25 students per class |
| 22:11.10 | macnewbold | and between ~20 teachers/classrooms, they share 8 full time TAs |
| 22:11.42 | macnewbold | some focus on different ways of teaching, like bilingual, or other kinds |
| 22:11.55 | macnewbold | my sister in law teaches at one that requires latin as a subject for 7-9th grade |
| 22:12.02 | macnewbold | for example |
| 22:12.03 | rsimpkins | I like the idea just because people end up having to work quite a bit harder than normal to make it all go. Everyone has more invested. |
| 22:12.09 | macnewbold | yeah, in general yes |
| 22:12.14 | JoshH | what's wrong with just taking your kids to a decent public school? |
| 22:12.18 | fugue88 | Latin's cool. |
| 22:12.31 | rsimpkins | JoshH: Nothing, in my opinion. |
| 22:12.39 | JoshH | nor mine |
| 22:12.51 | JoshH | if you live next to a crappy school, drive your kids to a pub school a bit further away |
| 22:12.55 | JoshH | that is legal in utah afaik |
| 22:13.16 | JoshH | homeschool could make sense if your wife doesn't work and knows a lot of stuff and wouldn't get bored being with the kids nonstop like that |
| 22:13.22 | blendmaster1024 | WHAT!? |
| 22:13.32 | macnewbold | JoshH: partly - many districts allow some kinds of "open enrollment" but there are limitations usually |
| 22:13.34 | blendmaster1024 | why do you guys keep highlighting me? |
| 22:13.40 | macnewbold | blendmaster1024: hahaha |
| 22:13.56 | macnewbold | maybe someone is pm'ing you, blendmaster1024? |
| 22:14.00 | blendmaster1024 | no, it's this channel |
| 22:14.06 | blendmaster1024 | JoshH's last line was HL |
| 22:14.08 | macnewbold | i don't see anyone talking to you... |
| 22:14.22 | macnewbold | perhaps you have something funny set up in your highlighting |
| 22:14.24 | JoshH | check your hilight list |
| 22:14.26 | fugue88 | homeschool |
| 22:14.27 | fozzmoo | JoshH's line said "homeschool" just like macnewbold's line earlier did. |
| 22:14.38 | sjansen | accuses macnewbold of being a freedom hating traitor |
| 22:14.43 | macnewbold | ~lart sjansen |
| 22:14.43 | ibot | whacks sjansen upside the head |
| 22:14.50 | blendmaster1024 | nope not it |
| 22:14.52 | rsimpkins | JoshH: There are lots of reasons to homeschool, I think. Some of those reasons people may agree with more than others. |
| 22:14.52 | fugue88 | bored |
| 22:14.54 | blendmaster1024 | checks hilight lists |
| 22:15.01 | sjansen | Come see the violence in inherent in the system! |
| 22:15.08 | macnewbold | one of the things i like most about charter schools is that they encourage competition and free market principles to drive improvement |
| 22:15.26 | blendmaster1024 | rofl oh it was "wife", which was still HL from earlier, during a bot test when someone was pasting a log, and the keyword for when to kick the paster was "wife" |
| 22:15.36 | macnewbold | public schools that don't perform well will lose their students, and thus their funding, and the funding will follow the students to the school where their parents want them to attend |
| 22:15.37 | fozzmoo | wife |
| 22:15.38 | fozzmoo | wife |
| 22:15.40 | JoshH | i just want my kids to have caring, motivated, intelligent teachers, a good social atmosphere, lots of extracurricular activites, etc |
| 22:15.45 | fozzmoo | blendmaster1024: Get a wife. |
| 22:15.47 | JoshH | the public schools i went to all met those those requirements |
| 22:15.55 | blendmaster1024 | fozzmoo, shut it off :) |
| 22:15.58 | macnewbold | rather than geographically assigning people and having no real pressure to improve beyond a minimum |
| 22:16.13 | macnewbold | JoshH: yeah, soem schools do |
| 22:16.17 | macnewbold | not all by any means |
| 22:16.23 | JoshH | oh i know |
| 22:16.30 | macnewbold | i had a few awesome teachers in public school, but they were generally the exception |
| 22:16.35 | JoshH | i suggest living in an area with good schools, or at least within driving distance to good schools |
| 22:16.39 | JoshH | homeschooling is a huge commitment |
| 22:16.42 | macnewbold | yeah, its true |
| 22:16.44 | goozbach | here in my new town they just removed school choice |
| 22:16.45 | macnewbold | homeschooling is, for sure |
| 22:17.01 | JoshH | and as for private/charter schools, all i can say is that most privately schooled people i know turned out to be socially weird or into drugs |
| 22:17.08 | macnewbold | for me it worked out, because we live in draper but the bilingual school (www.diacharter.org) is not far from work |
| 22:17.09 | rsimpkins | IMHO the issue with charter schools is capacity. They want to be 100% full, so it can be hard for organic growth. |
| 22:17.13 | macnewbold | so i drop the kids off, and often pick them up |
| 22:17.14 | JoshH | and their parents also spent a lot of money |
| 22:17.22 | goozbach | my wife and I (snigger at the higlight) decided to pass on a house we were looking at after we became aware of which school we'd be sending our future kids to |
| 22:17.33 | macnewbold | rsimpkins: yeah, it's hard to get a school that can grow gracefully, due to space issues for example |
| 22:17.40 | tensai | JoshH: maquis would be delighted to hear that I'm sure |
| 22:17.43 | macnewbold | a school taht can hold 450 is expensive, so you get one that does 350, |
| 22:17.52 | macnewbold | and then when you need to grow, moving is a pain |
| 22:17.56 | macnewbold | it's a hard balancing act |
| 22:18.05 | JoshH | tensai: well, she turned into a linux using girl, so something obviously went very wrong :P |
| 22:18.20 | macnewbold | most public schools don't face that much because their growth/decline is over decades usually from what i've seen |
| 22:18.23 | tensai | JoshH: so what's your excuse? :P |
| 22:18.25 | macnewbold | as the demographics in the neighborhood change |
| 22:18.39 | sjansen | Yeah, don't homeschool or you kids might turn out like elg. |
| 22:19.00 | goozbach | ohh weird |
| 22:19.12 | TodPunk | I send my kids to public school. My wife doesn't have the discipline to homeschool, and the social interaction is probably more important. |
| 22:19.16 | rsimpkins | sjansen: I'm trying to get mine to turn out like you - so I'm just kicking them out of the house in the morning, and letting them in to the garage at night to sleep. |
| 22:19.26 | goozbach | a sucessfull, smart phd (almost, right) |
| 22:19.26 | TodPunk | I'm going to have a hell of a time fighting with the school over homework though. |
| 22:19.31 | goozbach | who would want that?! |
| 22:19.47 | sjansen | If you love your children, it had better not be a heated garage. |
| 22:20.08 | maquis | looks to see what she would be interested to hear |
| 22:20.09 | goozbach | meh it's insulated, and they run the cars for a few hours befor hand |
| 22:20.17 | macnewbold | yeah, there's some interesting research about homeschool and social interaction that has some results that surprise a lot of people |
| 22:20.34 | fugue88 | Example surprising results? |
| 22:20.38 | JoshH | i can only go by my personal anecdotes |
| 22:20.57 | maquis | JoshH: you think i'm socially weird? |
| 22:21.00 | JoshH | but i don't think that private/homeschooled people turn out to be smarter or more socially adept |
| 22:21.00 | maquis | cries |
| 22:21.03 | macnewbold | many people thing homeschooled kids have poor/weird social skills, but the research shows they're very well adjusted generally |
| 22:21.07 | sjansen | There's a sharp divide when it comes to home schooling. |
| 22:21.23 | maquis | i've seen homeschoolers that were "interesting"... |
| 22:21.25 | macnewbold | if anything, they spend more time interacting with adults than most other kids do |
| 22:21.28 | macnewbold | maquis: so have i |
| 22:21.33 | macnewbold | often they have weird parents too |
| 22:21.37 | maquis | but most of the private schooled kids I've know were pretty normal |
| 22:21.39 | JoshH | well |
| 22:21.44 | fugue88 | I've seen public schoolers that were interesting... |
| 22:21.54 | macnewbold | oh yeah |
| 22:21.56 | JoshH | the homeschooled people i know are homeschooled because their parents are nutcases who hate the government |
| 22:21.56 | sjansen | On one end, you have very committed parents who bend over backwards to give a better educational experience, including plenty of social activity. |
| 22:21.57 | rsimpkins | I know a lot of really messed up private school and public school kids. A lot. |
| 22:22.00 | TodPunk | macnewbold: I've read a lot of that. That social interaction wasn't what we send them for. |
| 22:22.02 | JoshH | so there are other factors in their weirdness |
| 22:22.03 | maquis | granted, 95% of the private scholed kids I've known were classmates of mine |
| 22:22.04 | macnewbold | there are "interesting people" almost anywhere you look |
| 22:22.19 | sjansen | On the other end, you have parents that let there children slowly mold in a corner. |
| 22:22.28 | sjansen | There's not a lot of middle ground. |
| 22:22.43 | JoshH | if someone thinks public schools are government concentration camps that try to destroy god, their children aren't going to be normal |
| 22:22.48 | maquis | honestly, if homeschooled kids were more normal, i'd consider it... the schools here aren't all that great, imho |
| 22:22.57 | maquis | JoshH: lol |
| 22:23.06 | TodPunk | I'm less concerned about their ability to associate with people and more desire to give them a place to figure out how to deal with bullies, political struggles, etc. Those sorts of dynamics aren't things kids get with adults, and I think they're more important than knowing how to hold a proper conversation. |
| 22:23.30 | maquis | i wish i could send my daughter to school where i went, but there's no way we'd be able to afford it |
| 22:23.51 | macnewbold | normal parents who homeschool generally have very normal kids |
| 22:24.06 | sjansen | Bottling a bunch of kids up for two thirds of the year so they can only interact with people withing a year or so of their own age is very recent change. And it doesn't look like it was a change for the better. |
| 22:24.22 | maquis | sjansen: i'd agree with that |
| 22:24.34 | TodPunk | sjansen: agreed |
| 22:24.42 | macnewbold | TodPunk: a lot of those things still happen in other ways, even when homeschooling. for example, generally they still play with friends after school, or have scout or religious groups where they get that too |
| 22:24.51 | rsimpkins | I don't understand the bully argument. First we say how we need to end bullying so kids stop killing themselves, then we say how we need to force our kids to interact with bullies. |
| 22:24.51 | maquis | it's better when the older kids have the ability (and responsibility) to help the younger children. |
| 22:24.59 | TodPunk | macnewbold: I'm not a scout friendly guy |
| 22:25.13 | macnewbold | yeah, homeschooling does some good things with regard to older kids helping younger kids, from which they both benefit |
| 22:25.30 | macnewbold | actually schools are starting to implement cross-grade tutoring programs in some places, and it seems to be pretty awesome |
| 22:25.37 | maquis | I think that was one benefit of the old one-room schoolhouse method |
| 22:25.39 | macnewbold | TodPunk: that's okay, it was just an example |
| 22:25.44 | rsimpkins | macnewbold: I believe the BSA is a religious organization, if I'm not mistaken. |
| 22:25.59 | maquis | (that and they had way fewer discipline problems because they could actually discipline...) |
| 22:26.04 | macnewbold | rsimpkins: not per se, but it is an organization that supports and encourages religion, whatever your chosen one may be |
| 22:26.15 | macnewbold | maquis: no doubt |
| 22:26.23 | sjansen | Also, home schooling doesn't necessarily happen much at home. For best results, parent with the time and money do a lot to make sure their "home schooled" children get out. And I'm not just talking visiting the museum. |
| 22:26.41 | rsimpkins | macnewbold: I think they dont' allow the non-religious to participate, is my point. I'm not sure how that encourages a spiritual life, honestly. |
| 22:26.53 | maquis | i think what I'm hoping to do with my daughter is public school + lots of fun educational activities |
| 22:27.04 | fungus | macnewbold: the BSA specifically excludes non-religious people |
| 22:27.08 | TodPunk | rsimpkins: I personally think kids kill themselves because they don't know how to deal with the harshness of other kids and their parents don't involve themselves in their children's lives. I've only known of a couple cases where tragedy strikes and the parents were actually involved. Heck, even as far back as Columbine we have been learning this. Healthy outlets and discussions (not lectures) with a caring parent are important. |
| 22:27.15 | macnewbold | rsimpkins: sure they let them. there are only a couple of awards i know of that you couldn't get without a religion. |
| 22:27.28 | fungus | officially anyway |
| 22:27.32 | TodPunk | In the end, I don't think schooling is very important compared to the influence of the parent and longer lasting peers. |
| 22:27.35 | fungus | some troops don't really care though |
| 22:27.40 | macnewbold | fungus: how so? i had some kids in with me that never went to any church |
| 22:27.42 | rsimpkins | macnewbold: Read fungus. |
| 22:27.52 | maquis | TodPunk: true... around here, there's lots of kids who don't have parents home after school... |
| 22:28.04 | rsimpkins | macnewbold: Non-religious kids are specifically excluded from scouting. As an official policy. |
| 22:28.18 | macnewbold | rsimpkins: have a source to cite? |
| 22:28.24 | rsimpkins | macnewbold: the BSA website. |
| 22:28.29 | macnewbold | rsimpkins: link? |
| 22:28.36 | sjansen | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies#Position_on_atheists_and_agnostics |
| 22:28.45 | macnewbold | sjansen: thanks, reading... |
| 22:28.54 | TodPunk | rsimpkins: I dont' know how it is in Utah, but scouting in Illinois and California we always had non-religious folk. They just have to believe in some form of God, not an organized religion, to participate, officially. Unofficially, most troops in those states would let them participate anyway. |
| 22:29.14 | fungus | http://www.bsalegal.org/duty-to-god-cases-224.asp |
| 22:29.21 | rsimpkins | TodPunk: Yeah, the local leadership tends to loosley enforce the rules. |
| 22:29.34 | macnewbold | rsimpkins: fungus: sjansen: i stand corrected |
| 22:29.46 | macnewbold | it definitely includes "duty to god" in several places |
| 22:30.02 | sjansen | See! I told everyone, but would they listen? No! |
| 22:30.02 | macnewbold | and if you weren't comfortable making those oaths, it would exclude you |
| 22:30.12 | rsimpkins | macnewbold: I personally think it is wrong to exclude kids who think differently than other kids... but I probably stand in a minority. |
| 22:30.21 | sjansen | macnewbold is a violent deceiver! |
| 22:30.23 | macnewbold | TodPunk: agreed - belief in god vs participation in an organized religion are different |
| 22:30.25 | sjansen | macnewbold is a witch |
| 22:30.34 | macnewbold | ~kick sjansen |
| 22:30.35 | ibot | ACTION kicks sjansen |
| 22:30.35 | rsimpkins | macnewbold: Also, if you study that a bit more, you may find that such a policy wasn't always the case. |
| 22:30.37 | sjansen | macnewbold turned me into a newt! |
| 22:30.39 | fungus | TodPunk: requirement of a belief in God is still a religious requirement |
| 22:30.51 | TodPunk | Again, I stress that in SEVERAL troops we had non-religious (not just non-LDS) kids in our troop and they were fine. We even did the Duty to God stuff on a couple occasions and they just bowed out for those days. |
| 22:30.52 | sjansen | (I got better.) |
| 22:31.03 | macnewbold | TodPunk: that's my experience too |
| 22:31.12 | macnewbold | if they want to, they totally can |
| 22:31.27 | TodPunk | fungus: that's a semantic argument and it doesn't really have any place with the topic at hand in my opinion. |
| 22:31.33 | macnewbold | i've never known of a case where a non-religious (atheist/agnostic) adult wanted to be a scout leader though, so i don't know what usually happens there |
| 22:31.41 | macnewbold | how'd we get off the topic of schools? |
| 22:31.43 | macnewbold | wow |
| 22:31.46 | macnewbold | rabbit hole |
| 22:31.49 | rsimpkins | How would you feel if your non-religious child was denied an Eagle award after all his hard work once some upper leader found out? |
| 22:31.57 | TodPunk | macnewbold: we were always on the topic of raising kids, not necessarily schools =cP |
| 22:32.06 | fungus | macnewbold: that have been many legal cases relating to atheist leaders and such |
| 22:32.08 | macnewbold | fair enough |
| 22:32.13 | rsimpkins | The fact is, despite what local leaders do, there is an official policy that excludes such people. |
| 22:32.49 | macnewbold | if they're willing to live by the scout oath, that is sufficiently religious for the BSA, according to that policy quote |
| 22:32.54 | rsimpkins | The reason why I brought this up, actually, wasn't about scouting. It was about coolaberating as geeks in alternative education for those of us responsible for children. |
| 22:32.58 | macnewbold | yeah |
| 22:33.05 | macnewbold | homescool co-ops are a really interesting thing too |
| 22:33.18 | macnewbold | where a group of parents work together to homeschool their kids |
| 22:33.24 | TodPunk | rsimpkins: I know plenty of agnostic kids that got their eagle. They just had the idea that there must have been some supreme force and we don't know much about it, and that was good enough for the eagle board of review (In CA, that is) |
| 22:33.24 | fungus | has a huge problem with the BSA organization |
| 22:33.25 | sjansen | I thought we were debating whether to burn macnewbold at the stake. |
| 22:33.54 | rsimpkins | TodPunk: Yup, I imagine it would be applied rather variably. |
| 22:33.59 | sjansen | Or we could weigh him and see if he's as light as a duck. |
| 22:34.03 | fugue88 | sjansen: Toss him in the river first. |
| 22:34.06 | TodPunk | Personally, I think Scouting as an organization doesn't meet any of its goals anymore and I think there are better things to get your kid into. |
| 22:34.06 | rsimpkins | sjansen: Burn him! |
| 22:34.27 | TodPunk | sjansen: throw him in the river! |
| 22:34.35 | macnewbold | http://clientsfromhell.net/post/610757191/as-told-by-an-old-school-film-editor-from-the |
| 22:35.00 | TodPunk | wants to get his kids into traditional Karate instead |
| 22:35.01 | fungus | The BSA expects the freedoms of a private organization, but also expects the treatment of gov't funding |
| 22:35.21 | TodPunk | something not about rank advancement, not about fighting. Just self-mastery and perfection. |
| 22:35.21 | macnewbold | fungus: do they get gov't funding somehow? |
| 22:35.22 | *** join/#utah jalbretsen (~jalbretse@c-76-27-51-43.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 22:35.48 | fungus | Yes, along with special access to gov't run land. |
| 22:35.51 | TodPunk | I don't think the BSA is directly government funded. |
| 22:36.10 | TodPunk | I think it might have grants, but so do a LOT of private corporations. |
| 22:36.25 | mpxm_ | most of those BSA leases for land go *way* back |
| 22:36.41 | sjansen | ~greet mpxm_ |
| 22:36.42 | ibot | ACTION dumps a bucket of cold oatmeal on mpxm_ |
| 22:36.47 | mpxm_ | whee! |
| 22:36.58 | TodPunk | saying it's government funded is rather misleading from the reality of the relationship the BSA have with government land and the BSA funding situation. |
| 22:37.10 | rsimpkins | TodPunk: Here is a good background story - http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,164547,00.html |
| 22:37.42 | sjansen | So what you're saying is that the BSA is run by a coven of witches? |
| 22:38.10 | rsimpkins | sjansen: wizards |
| 22:38.17 | rsimpkins | grand wizards, actually. |
| 22:38.18 | TodPunk | rsimpkins: wow. Wendy has a chip on her shoulder. I'm only half-way through it and it's so ridiculously apparent. |
| 22:38.25 | TodPunk | Did a scout beat her up as a child? |
| 22:38.42 | rsimpkins | TodPunk: hey, it is posted on fox news - fair and balanced! |
| 22:38.52 | TodPunk | uh huh |
| 22:39.09 | TodPunk | There are reasons I don't read/watch/listen to the news. |
| 22:39.17 | sjansen | Having been a scout, I'd say it's more likely that a troop chopped down here favorite tree and used it for a bonfire. |
| 22:39.17 | fungus | I really like the idea of scouting in general. But the discrimination is completely out of line. |
| 22:39.36 | rsimpkins | TodPunk: hehe, it is good just to get a brief highlight and background, there are various forms of bias in any source. |
| 22:39.38 | TodPunk | sjansen: because she was a smelly girl. |
| 22:39.38 | sjansen | Because, really, that's the heart of boy scouting: regulated pyromania. |
| 22:40.15 | rsimpkins | I have a home video my friends took of 2 scouts starting a forest fire at scout camp. |
| 22:40.16 | TodPunk | rsimpkins: yes, but that doesn't make the overview relevant to anything. Most things news reporters latch onto is meant to sell newspapers, not actually matter. |
| 22:40.45 | TodPunk | Seriously though, this Wendy chick is on a serious warpath. |
| 22:41.17 | TodPunk | and why are ALL of her sources female? |
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| 22:41.43 | goozbach | I started two forest fires during my stint as a scout |
| 22:41.49 | goozbach | so I became a scout leader |
| 22:41.51 | rsimpkins | TodPunk: Because, "Wendy McElroy is the editor of ifeminists.com" |
| 22:42.11 | goozbach | and taught 10-15 boys 20-30 different ways to start fires |
| 22:42.19 | TodPunk | OH!!!! I didn't see that. That tells us everything we needed to know. |
| 22:42.25 | TodPunk | hates feminists. |
| 22:42.36 | TodPunk | Not feminism, mind you. Just feminists. |
| 22:43.11 | fungus | hates people like TodPunk who sterotype people. |
| 22:43.20 | JoshH | fungus: i agree about scouting. if it was a neutral, all inclusive organization, i would support it wholeheartedly. as it is now, i'm pretty meh about it |
| 22:43.23 | rsimpkins | hates all the hating. |
| 22:43.41 | sjansen | hates rsimpkins's hating of the hating |
| 22:44.11 | TodPunk | fungus: you're welcome to do so. You stereotype as well, though. Everyone needs a place to start from. I just allow my opinion to be changed after more evidence comes in over time. |
| 22:44.41 | TodPunk | Hey! You're stereotyping my stereotyping habits! |
| 22:44.59 | sjansen | You know that this calls for? A French joke. |
| 22:45.00 | sjansen | http://punditkitchen.com/2010/05/18/political-pictures-sarkozy-obama-self-defense/ |
| 22:45.03 | JoshH | i stereotype conservatives, but that's about it |
| 22:45.16 | fungus | I really enjoyed my scouting experience. At least as long as I was pretending to fit their requirements. |
| 22:45.26 | rsimpkins | I enjoyed it too, for the record. |
| 22:46.27 | TodPunk | enjoyed doing things as a scout. He did not enjoy the beauracracy or the ridiculous expectations from some of the leaders. |
| 22:46.41 | sjansen | Thanks to my years in scouting, I tie two sticks together well enough to keep them that way for at least a couple minutes. |
| 22:46.43 | JoshH | i enjoyed the camp outs and stuff, but not the whole "have a meeting at the ward house |
| 22:46.46 | JoshH | aspect |
| 22:46.47 | rsimpkins | Thomas Monson has been on the national executive board of the Boy Scouts of America since 1969. Hopefully he had some good impact? |
| 22:46.53 | goozbach | o/~ everyone's a little bit racist... sometimes! o/~ |
| 22:48.14 | unum | rsimpkins: I think they are complaining about the religious requirements, which I don't think Monson will discourage |
| 22:48.39 | JoshH | the scouts will never ditch the religion stuff |
| 22:49.00 | JoshH | which is lame, since more and more people are growing up without religion these days, and it will eventually just get less and less relevant |
| 22:49.12 | unum | there are rival organizations which don't have those requirement which may replace them some day |
| 22:49.18 | JoshH | it's not like the 50's where you were strange if you weren't a christian |
| 22:49.53 | TodPunk | unum: I don't think he'll be as critical of those lacking christianity as some have proposed the BSA is, though. |
| 22:50.07 | macnewbold | imho it isn't about being strange, it is just about a belief a lot of people hold, that having some kind of religious belief helps people |
| 22:50.15 | JoshH | he won't make it any easier for the gay scouts |
| 22:50.16 | TodPunk | He tends to show a lot of tolerance and even acceptance of all religious spectrums. |
| 22:50.24 | JoshH | if prop 8 support is any indication |
| 22:50.37 | rsimpkins | It wasn't always the same, though. Powell for example had a version of the oath that did no include God. - http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/b-p/law.htm |
| 22:51.04 | macnewbold | JoshH: i believe LDS support for prop8 was about definition of marriage, not about tolerance/acceptance of other beliefs/actions |
| 22:51.09 | rsimpkins | Apparently he made it specifically for boys who were not religious. |
| 22:51.39 | TodPunk | macnewbold: quite true. That whole argument really boils down to term ownership, not sexuality acceptance. |
| 22:52.03 | macnewbold | TodPunk: thank you :) |
| 22:52.05 | JoshH | macnewbold: i don't want to get into a debate, but i think it's pretty obvious through their actions past and present that the lds church has little tolerance for homosexuals. the byu experiments, the political actions, the proclamations, etc all speak pretty loudly. |
| 22:52.06 | TodPunk | rsimpkins: I think he made it specificall for boys who wanted to build fires in the woods. |
| 22:52.06 | rsimpkins | I'm not sure why the BSA simply can't allow both to be an option. |
| 22:52.19 | rsimpkins | Is it really that big of deal? |
| 22:52.30 | JoshH | they may not be westboro, but they aren't the unitarians either |
| 22:52.36 | macnewbold | JoshH: it's very clear that the lds church doesn't condone homosexuality, and considers it a sin against god's law |
| 22:53.17 | JoshH | maybe they should ask god to stop making gay people then :P |
| 22:53.32 | TodPunk | JoshH: just because a lot of members of a church have a different hypothesis about the nature of homosexuality does not mean that a) the church itself has a particular stance on the science therein, or b) that their hypothesis is invalid because it differs from mine or yours. |
| 22:53.48 | sjansen | *yawn* |
| 22:53.54 | unum | and people who are mean, selfish, lazy, alcoholics, because they are all sins |
| 22:54.23 | rsimpkins | sjansen is a sinner, I'm sure of it. |
| 22:54.32 | TodPunk | rsimpkins: to somebody, I'm sure |
| 22:54.36 | TodPunk | (like me) |
| 22:54.39 | JoshH | well, he does use suse |
| 22:54.43 | unum | is the biggest sinner here |
| 22:54.46 | rsimpkins | and emacs |
| 22:54.49 | TodPunk | and perl |
| 22:54.51 | TodPunk | >.> |
| 22:54.57 | unum | oh wait I don't use suse |
| 22:54.58 | rsimpkins | whoa, sjansen is gonna roast. |
| 22:55.02 | unum | ya I would never go that far |
| 22:55.13 | unum | actually I tried it once in college |
| 22:55.17 | unum | but I didn't in hail |
| 22:55.20 | JoshH | is vim the official editor of the church? |
| 22:55.39 | JoshH | there has to be some revelation about it |
| 22:55.42 | unum | what does randsom love use? |
| 22:56.24 | sjansen | Actually, about a decade ago I heard that the sysadmins at the LDS church deliberately removed vi after installing emacs. |
| 22:56.24 | TodPunk | JoshH: I'm guessing eclipse, actually |
| 22:56.40 | JoshH | i know they use debian at least |
| 22:56.47 | rsimpkins | sjansen: Is that before or after their datacenter caught on fire? |
| 22:57.15 | eightyeight | i thought the lds church was a massive suse shop |
| 22:57.24 | TodPunk | No, an intern had installed ubuntu on one of the servers |
| 22:57.42 | JoshH | riker was in here talking about how they use debian preseeds and stuff a whilea go |
| 22:57.54 | unum | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ransom_Love |
| 22:58.00 | TodPunk | eightyeight: they've been a lot of things over the years, but really they're not standardized on any one thing across the board. |
| 22:58.06 | unum | his wiki page remains silent on vi/emacs |
| 22:58.08 | eightyeight | interesting |
| 22:58.31 | unum | the dell guy told me that familysearch.org was redhat |
| 22:58.38 | TodPunk | unum: I'm going to guess he's a Windows guy. |
| 22:59.31 | sjansen | Who let the dogs out? |
| 22:59.33 | sjansen | Who? |
| 22:59.37 | sjansen | Who? |
| 22:59.45 | sjansen | Who? |
| 22:59.47 | sjansen | Who? |
| 22:59.49 | TodPunk | If their job postings are any indicator, they have Windows, Linux of various flavors, BSD (though not sure what flavor), HP-UX, and a lot of hardware specific stuff across the entirety of the church corporation. |
| 22:59.53 | JoshH | i wonder if monson runs ubuntu on his desktop |
| 23:00.07 | TodPunk | wonders if Monson runs a desktop at all... |
| 23:00.11 | eightyeight | JoshH: why would you think that? |
| 23:00.25 | JoshH | i'm just getting carried away |
| 23:00.37 | eightyeight | ah |
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| 23:26.25 | unum | anyone else ever use exec-wrapper? |