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| 00:03.51 | TodPunk | that they do |
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| 01:21.37 | goozbach | fozzmoo: pong |
| 01:36.36 | elg | haha. |
| 01:36.58 | elg | $FRIEND joined the group Itouch GiveAway (Read group info tab to get one free shipped to you). |
| 01:36.58 | elg | followed by |
| 01:36.58 | elg | $FRIEND joined the group NO, I WILL NOT PAY $3.99 A MONTH TO USE FACE BOOK FROM JULY 9TH 2010! |
| 01:43.08 | levi | Gullible $FRIEND. |
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| 03:59.21 | fozzmoo | goozbach: nm |
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| 14:49.03 | markl_ | whats up |
| 14:50.28 | fozzmoo | snow |
| 14:50.44 | fozzmoo | Oh wait. Was that a question? |
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| 15:06.03 | goozbach | fozzmoo: pong |
| 15:06.07 | goozbach | er pongNM |
| 15:06.17 | goozbach | snow? |
| 15:06.23 | goozbach | at the end of april? |
| 15:11.29 | *** topic/#utah by goozbach -> logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/#utah | .... AND TIME!!!!!....... is still marching on! |
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| 15:40.25 | markl_ | fozzmoo: heh punctuation is optional in irc isn't it |
| 15:40.26 | markl_ | ? |
| 15:44.28 | unum | so I talked to a tea partier yesterday who told me mike lee wasn't a phony he never got around to explaining why, I think he's still supporting cheryl eager |
| 15:44.37 | unum | she doesn't seem to have much support |
| 15:45.09 | unum | personally I prefer someone who can atleast put their ideas in their own words(rather than quoting glen beck) |
| 15:46.09 | sjansen | Personally, I prefer someone who makes an effort to come within spitting distance of proper capitalization and punctuation. |
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| 15:55.37 | markl_ | when is the actual primary? |
| 15:56.08 | JoshH | sjansen: i never bother with it on irc, but i do in email, web posts, etc |
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| 16:05.21 | unum | markl_: utah has a special way of doing things |
| 16:05.29 | unum | first there's the convent on may 8th |
| 16:05.34 | unum | covention |
| 16:06.03 | markl_ | party conventions? |
| 16:06.57 | *** part/#utah synic (~squish@pdpc/supporter/student/synic) |
| 16:07.58 | markl_ | guess i could just look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_election_in_Utah,_2010 |
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| 16:08.31 | markl_ | except their css is busted, yuck |
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| 16:28.27 | markl_ | ok June 22, 2010 |
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| 16:54.26 | goozbach | ~baby sinclair |
| 16:54.27 | ibot | We're gonna need another Timmy.... say it!!! |
| 16:57.48 | goozbach | ~baby sinclair |
| 16:57.49 | ibot | I'm vibrating |
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| 17:00.53 | goozbach | ~baby sinclair |
| 17:00.54 | ibot | I'm the baby |
| 17:09.13 | elg | ~rlart |
| 17:09.14 | ibot | flings poo at fozzmoo |
| 17:09.25 | fozzmoo | tries to dodge |
| 17:10.44 | markl_ | ~roulette |
| 17:10.45 | ibot | ACTION watches markl_ pull the trigger: Click! |
| 17:14.10 | elg | ~rfart |
| 17:14.11 | ibot | ACTION farts in the general direction of bgerber |
| 17:14.32 | elg | that's what I call an intuitive ui |
| 17:15.11 | TodPunk | ~roulette |
| 17:15.12 | ibot | ACTION watches todpunk pull the trigger: Click! |
| 17:15.15 | sjansen | ~ballmer |
| 17:15.16 | ibot | from memory, ballmer is Darth Maul to Gates' Palpatine, or fat |
| 17:16.16 | sjansen | ibot: No, ballmer is <action> throws chairs and screams at everyone |
| 17:16.17 | ibot | sjansen: okay |
| 17:16.21 | sjansen | ~ballmer |
| 17:16.21 | ibot | ACTION throws chairs and screams at everyone |
| 17:17.35 | sjansen | ~ballmer elg |
| 17:17.36 | ibot | ACTION throws chairs and screams at elg |
| 17:17.36 | goozbach | ~balmer is also <reply> developers! developers! developers!... developers! developers! developers!... |
| 17:17.36 | ibot | okay, goozbach |
| 17:17.53 | goozbach | ~doh |
| 17:17.53 | ibot | doh is probably what homer simpson says when sid crashes |
| 17:17.56 | goozbach | mis spelling |
| 17:18.06 | elg | ~lart goozbach |
| 17:18.06 | ibot | takes goozbach to the vet for a "special" visit |
| 17:18.16 | goozbach | http://www.playedonline.com/game/598161/super-mario-crossover.html |
| 17:18.19 | elg | goozbach: so are you going to make your own sourdough or do I have to send you some? |
| 17:18.36 | goozbach | elg: it'll have to wait about two months |
| 17:18.42 | goozbach | until I can get into my new house |
| 17:18.54 | elg | you can start now |
| 17:18.59 | goozbach | I'm trying not to use the small kitchen in my apartment |
| 17:19.00 | elg | doesn't take much space. one little jar |
| 17:19.03 | goozbach | yeah |
| 17:19.20 | goozbach | but there are all sorts of unsavory characters in my kitchen |
| 17:19.23 | goozbach | in the apt |
| 17:19.30 | elg | so a jar with a lid |
| 17:19.40 | elg | jam jars work well |
| 17:19.47 | goozbach | jam jars huh |
| 17:19.52 | goozbach | walk me through the process? |
| 17:20.09 | markl_ | ok what happened to gabriel, does he not join often? |
| 17:20.38 | goozbach | he's doing real work |
| 17:20.45 | goozbach | like starting a company or something |
| 17:20.52 | goozbach | he doesn't have time for the likes of us |
| 17:21.22 | markl_ | heh |
| 17:21.56 | markl_ | i saw that he was listening to phish and wanted to make sure he knew about: http://tinyurl.com/34pjya2 |
| 17:22.29 | elg | in a nutshell, you mix flour and pineapple juice, let it sit, feed it every day or two, let it sit some more, et voila (now feed it water and flour, not pineapple juice and flour). |
| 17:22.41 | elg | I can link the full instructions for you when you're ready |
| 17:22.46 | elg | OJ works too |
| 17:22.52 | goozbach | link away |
| 17:22.55 | elg | (it's the acid, not the fruityness or the sugar) |
| 17:22.59 | goozbach | I've got some OJ |
| 17:23.08 | eggyknap | has done it a few times without anything more than flour and water. that works ok too |
| 17:23.21 | goozbach | define feed |
| 17:23.25 | markl_ | phish 3d movie opening friday at Carmike Wynnsong 12 in provo, and some slc theaters too |
| 17:23.31 | eggyknap | rye flour supposedly works better than wheat, because of lower phytic acid content, which is apparently helpful. |
| 17:23.34 | elg | yeah, flour and water always works. the PJ or OJ skips the bad bugs that appear before the good bugs |
| 17:23.49 | elg | some people find the lag of activity after the bad bugs start leaving discouraging |
| 17:23.53 | elg | and it cuts a couple days off |
| 17:23.59 | elg | oh yeah, use whole wheat flour at first. |
| 17:24.38 | elg | rye may get started faster, but if it's a wheat culture you gotta feed it wheat eventually, and it's got to stabilize on wheat, so I'm not sure you'd gain any time. |
| 17:24.45 | keldwud | what are we making? |
| 17:24.49 | fozzmoo | http://vimeo.com/4366695?hd=1 |
| 17:24.52 | keldwud | sourdough? |
| 17:25.04 | sjansen | goozbach: That is _so_ AWESOME! |
| 17:25.09 | elg | goozbach: the best place is http://www.amazon.com/dp/1580089984?tag=.twg-20 |
| 17:25.53 | markl_ | what kind of company is gabriel starting? |
| 17:25.55 | elg | he's got a chapter in there on making your start. top-notch. But you can get the same information in a less polished (but more detailed) way from http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10856/pineapple-juice-solution-part-1 and part 2 linked from there |
| 17:26.04 | elg | or from me directly |
| 17:26.20 | elg | I think the actual schedule is in part 2 |
| 17:26.55 | elg | feed (sourdough): v. flour and water in equal parts (by weight) to the tune of doubling to octupling the flour |
| 17:30.40 | sjansen | markl_: Gabe's company does custom VOIP solutions. |
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| 17:46.23 | markl_ | sjansen: what is the url? |
| 17:51.40 | sjansen | http://www.izeni.com/ |
| 18:15.39 | Migs | http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/23/general-motors-economy-bailout-opinions-columnists-shikha-dalmia.html |
| 18:20.39 | sjansen | Seeing as I know own part of GM, shouldn't I also get to vote on the new GM board and CEO at the same time I pick a congressman? |
| 18:21.42 | unum | I think it's similiar to how senators were elected, you vote for your congressman and HE votes for the CEO :) |
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| 18:52.33 | markl_ | Migs: bailouts are definitely a moral hazard |
| 18:52.59 | markl_ | what the government needs to do is improve bankruptcy reform, from individuals all the way up to Goldman Sachs |
| 18:53.28 | markl_ | i can't remember the exact statistics, but the GM bailout was enough money to give every employee like 2 years worth of severance |
| 18:53.50 | markl_ | some ridiculous number like that |
| 18:58.14 | markl_ | http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2010/0423/Tea-party-activists-Do-they-hate-liberals-more-than-they-love-liberty |
| 18:58.52 | unum | moral hazard? |
| 18:58.57 | unum | I don't think I like that word |
| 18:59.02 | unum | s/word/term |
| 18:59.27 | markl_ | unum: you have heard it used before, haven't you? |
| 19:00.19 | markl_ | i'm not sure if you are saying that it is inappropriate, or that it is a new term to you |
| 19:00.40 | markl_ | forgive my condescension if it is the former, please :) |
| 19:01.00 | markl_ | but i am in the habit of always asking people if their power cord is plugged in before helping them with anything |
| 19:01.58 | unum | Yet, seeking enlightenment from most tea party speakers is like searching in a dark room for a black cat that isnât there. |
| 19:02.03 | unum | that's how I feel |
| 19:02.09 | unum | notice how he said "most" |
| 19:02.28 | unum | markl_: I've heard it a lot |
| 19:02.37 | markl_ | most may be overstating it - but it is enough to discredit the whole movement |
| 19:02.47 | unum | it reminds of "people are stealing are intellectual property" |
| 19:03.19 | markl_ | yeah, the term "piracy" may be the best propganda victory of all time. |
| 19:03.23 | unum | I know people who were libertarian before glenn beck, and I agree with some of their points |
| 19:03.29 | unum | but recent converts do not impress me |
| 19:03.31 | markl_ | unauthorized copying != stealing |
| 19:03.46 | markl_ | unum: the problem is that people over-simply so many issues |
| 19:03.49 | markl_ | over-simplify |
| 19:04.18 | markl_ | whereas a conservative approach is to be anti-radical - to understand consequences first |
| 19:04.41 | markl_ | because the consequences of an anti-hispanic second-trail-of-tears would be pretty rough |
| 19:04.59 | markl_ | as one example |
| 19:05.25 | markl_ | my family (from ohio) has a lot of dittoheads, it is frustrating |
| 19:06.22 | sjansen | I was perfectly happy not having heard the word "dittohead" in years. |
| 19:06.48 | markl_ | heh sorry |
| 19:07.24 | markl_ | what does that term even mean, is it just people who always say "ditto" to whatever Rush says? |
| 19:07.26 | unum | I like that article |
| 19:07.36 | unum | it expresses my feelings very well |
| 19:07.37 | markl_ | because that fits my dad's side of the family to a T |
| 19:08.05 | markl_ | unum: yeah the christian science monitor seems to be pretty reasonable |
| 19:08.11 | sjansen | markl_: Pretty much. "I'm a dittohead" means "I'm proud to have outsourced all my thinking to an entertainer." |
| 19:08.13 | markl_ | even if christian scientists really aren't |
| 19:08.23 | markl_ | sjansen: ok that makes sense. |
| 19:08.33 | goozbach | ~baby sinclair |
| 19:08.34 | ibot | gotta love me |
| 19:12.18 | sjansen | The same people would probably get violent if you said "I've outsourced all my thinking to Michael Moore" but when you get down to it, there's not a lot of difference between Michael Moore and Rush Limbaugh. Both are entertainers with an agenda, pandering to make a buck. |
| 19:12.19 | markl_ | unum: my biggest pet peeve is people who attack "liberals" without even having an objective definition of what that means |
| 19:12.46 | markl_ | because i think i am both conservative and liberal, if you look at what those words really mean |
| 19:12.47 | unum | markl_: my biggest pet peeve is people saying "now a days" or anything to that affect |
| 19:13.00 | unum | which is why I want to strangle glenn beck when ever I hear him talk |
| 19:13.02 | markl_ | unum: heh how about expresso or irregardless? |
| 19:13.12 | unum | nope don't bother me |
| 19:13.47 | unum | making comparisons about today against a history that you have no knowledge of, is what really ticks me off |
| 19:18.33 | sjansen | One can't help but think if Paul Revere had been more effective in preventing the Italians it probably wouldn't have been necessary for Patrick Henry to take such drastic action to prevent illegal immigration from Mexico. |
| 19:19.03 | sjansen | s/Italians it/Italians invade it |
| 19:19.10 | sjansen | s/Italians it/Italians invading it |
| 19:20.11 | rsimpkins | What I don't understand, and maybe sjansen can ellaborate, is how rett bulter was able to single handedly stop the nazi invasion of washington. |
| 19:20.16 | unum | especially the illegal immigration into Los Angelos, I'm sure there wasn't anbody but anglos in Los Angelos when the founding fathers founded it in 1788 |
| 19:20.26 | unum | but know there's nothing but "illegals" |
| 19:20.40 | unum | s/know/now |
| 19:21.04 | unum | oops Las Angelas |
| 19:21.20 | unum | nothing but female angels apparantly..... |
| 19:22.07 | unum | oh it is los..... |
| 19:22.10 | rsimpkins | Are you thinking of Los Angeles, in California? |
| 19:23.00 | unum | El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Angeles del RÃo de Porciúncula is its real name |
| 19:23.03 | unum | rsimpkins: yes |
| 19:23.14 | markl_ | trying to make a pun, eh |
| 19:24.27 | jsmith | unum: Actually, it's not. According to http://www.laalmanac.com/history/hi03b.htm, it's only El Pueblo de la Reina de Los Angeles |
| 19:24.53 | rsimpkins | Well, some think that to be totally honest they have to tell everything. They donât. |
| 19:25.19 | unum | I wasn't accusing people of lying |
| 19:25.28 | unum | well accept glenn beck |
| 19:25.34 | rsimpkins | Some things that are true arenât very useful. |
| 19:26.00 | sjansen | unum: Do you accept Glenn Beck? |
| 19:26.02 | sjansen | Accept Beck and be saved! |
| 19:26.12 | unum | is it that easy? |
| 19:26.21 | unum | by grace I am saved, with out work? |
| 19:26.50 | markl_ | heh |
| 19:27.09 | markl_ | i can't except that |
| 19:38.28 | eightyeight | except or accept? |
| 19:38.59 | eightyeight | s/with out/without/ |
| 19:39.31 | eightyeight | looks for more english errors |
| 19:46.07 | sjansen | s/english/English/ |
| 19:52.31 | markl_ | s/sjansen/grammar nazi/ |
| 19:52.57 | eightyeight | upper-case? in irc? amongst unix nerds? |
| 19:53.28 | eightyeight | well, i guess there are some windows-types in here |
| 19:55.16 | sjansen | lol u r write, we shuld treat irc spacial |
| 19:56.18 | eightyeight | i've never treated it special |
| 19:56.25 | eightyeight | but if you want, have at it |
| 19:56.41 | unum | I treat irc special |
| 19:56.46 | unum | and text messaging as well |
| 19:56.53 | unum | I'm much more formal in my emails |
| 19:57.07 | unum | and I don't every write anything important |
| 19:58.04 | eightyeight | email and blogging are about the only times i care about pressing the shift key |
| 19:59.35 | levi | eightyeight: Lazy-ass. :) |
| 19:59.58 | eightyeight | laziness, impatience and hubris |
| 20:00.22 | levi | Must go along with socialist tendencies. |
| 20:00.30 | eightyeight | yeah. it's marxist |
| 20:00.59 | levi | My socialist lesbian lit crit major friend never capitalizes anything online. |
| 20:01.11 | eightyeight | heh |
| 20:01.12 | levi | She's also half-French. |
| 20:01.31 | eightyeight | my last name is french |
| 20:01.41 | eightyeight | i guess i could be a lesbian trapped in a man's body |
| 20:01.55 | levi | Yeah, but what do you know about Derrida? |
| 20:02.00 | eightyeight | and i write poetry |
| 20:02.24 | eightyeight | jacques derrida? the french philospher? |
| 20:02.33 | Gate | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:02.41 | levi | Who else? |
| 20:02.56 | eightyeight | now i'm just being a smart ass |
| 20:03.03 | eightyeight | thx to google |
| 20:03.37 | levi | Clearly she's more liberal elite than you. ;) |
| 20:03.51 | eightyeight | damnit! i need to get out more |
| 20:05.53 | Gate | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:06.04 | eightyeight | in all honesty though, i have been enjoying writing poetry |
| 20:06.07 | Gate | ok, I will stop this now. |
| 20:06.34 | eightyeight | Gate: /r{2}|d{2}/? |
| 20:06.40 | levi | eightyeight: But do you wear a black turtleneck and hang out in coffee shops? |
| 20:07.08 | eightyeight | ah, i do not. coffee is so 2000 |
| 20:07.34 | eightyeight | tea is the new trend. it just hasn't caught on yet |
| 20:08.01 | levi | I didn't say anything about drinking coffee. |
| 20:08.07 | eightyeight | touche |
| 20:08.30 | eightyeight | waits for it from redbeard_work |
| 20:09.00 | eightyeight | i went to an open mic session at wsu, and read my hair poem, and got great feedback |
| 20:09.26 | eightyeight | but while listening to others, i couldn't understand the deep, philosophical, "woe is me", prose crap |
| 20:09.48 | eightyeight | so i've gone the direction of writing light, witty, poems that actually rhyme |
| 20:10.01 | levi | You need to mope harder. |
| 20:10.38 | levi | Also, that's not prose, it's 'free verse'. ;) |
| 20:10.51 | eightyeight | i'm taking theodor geisel and shel silverstein as my influences |
| 20:11.24 | eightyeight | prose or free verse. it doesn't change the fact that it's crap. :) |
| 20:12.00 | levi | Naw, man, T.S. Eliot was awesome. |
| 20:13.14 | eightyeight | yeah, i guess. i would rather read robert frost, however |
| 20:14.45 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (~timr@bzflag/projectlead/TimRiker) |
| 20:14.45 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 20:15.06 | rsimpkins | sjansen: I'm ready to send out an announcment for May PLUG. So far, all I've got is "Stuart is going to tell us how awesome he is." Can you help me come up with a more verbose description? |
| 20:17.07 | levi | Stuart will tell us how awesome he is, and Aaron will read silly rhyming poems. ;) |
| 20:18.31 | eightyeight | how about stuart write a poem about how awesome he is? |
| 20:18.40 | eightyeight | in xml |
| 20:20.50 | sjansen | "On his good days, Chuck Norris revels in his own existence. On his bad days, Chuck Norris wallows in the knowledge that he'll never be Stuart Jansen.\n\nPlug is proud to announce that for this month's meeting, Stuart will share his mind shattering seminar 'My Pinky Is Filled With Awesome and You Can Too'." |
| 20:22.22 | rsimpkins | Sounds good to me. |
| 20:23.05 | Gate | assert(BEST_OF_TIMES); assert(WORST_OF_TIMES); |
| 20:23.31 | sjansen | e. e. cummings ftw |
| 20:26.12 | Migs | http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/permalink/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20100428006950&newsLang=en |
| 20:26.25 | Migs | HP to acquire Palm in deal valued at $1.2 billion, praises smartphone capabilities |
| 20:26.32 | rsimpkins | wow. |
| 20:26.37 | rsimpkins | that is unexpected. |
| 20:26.43 | rsimpkins | HP usually buys good companies. |
| 20:29.58 | Sargun | rsimpkins, -_- Palm is an awesome company. |
| 20:30.13 | rsimpkins | Sargun: then why are they desperate to sell themselves off? |
| 20:30.37 | Sargun | rsimpkins, because they screwed up marketing, sales, etc.. |
| 20:30.49 | rsimpkins | so.... just how awesome are they again? |
| 20:31.02 | fungus | Have you ever used a Pre? they suck compared to what's available |
| 20:31.07 | Sargun | I own a Pre... |
| 20:31.12 | fungus | i'm sorry |
| 20:31.37 | Sargun | DUDE. |
| 20:31.41 | Sargun | http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/12/palm-pre-runs-doom-smartphone-loving-space-marines-rejoyce/ |
| 20:31.48 | sjansen | There hardware is awesome. The software is slick. Their management sucked. |
| 20:31.52 | Sargun | Did it take your phone a week from release to run Doom? |
| 20:31.58 | Sargun | sjansen, Their hardware cut a lot of corners. |
| 20:32.10 | Sargun | sjansen, The hardware specifications are awesome, but terrible implementation. |
| 20:32.17 | Sargun | sjansen, Great software, needs work though. |
| 20:32.26 | Sargun | sjansen, Terrible F-ing management. |
| 20:32.47 | fungus | I thought the Pre was almost as bad as the BB Storm |
| 20:33.04 | sjansen | is happy with his Pre |
| 20:33.08 | fungus | All the Android phones were better. |
| 20:33.19 | sjansen | hardly |
| 20:34.07 | eightyeight | the pre hardware sucked |
| 20:34.13 | Sargun | Does your android phone handle multiple exchange accounts out of the box? |
| 20:34.20 | eightyeight | and as a result of their lack of solid execution, no one is buying it |
| 20:34.25 | sjansen | Android is probably the future, but while Google learns the meaning of the words "polish, fit and finish" I'll continue to enjoy my Pre. |
| 20:34.37 | eightyeight | that's why we have htc. :) |
| 20:34.50 | sjansen | HTC can't do much about Android being klunky. |
| 20:35.05 | *** part/#utah keldwud (~keldwud@c-67-161-214-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 20:35.14 | eightyeight | you're kidding, right? |
| 20:35.39 | eightyeight | their sense ui is stellar. tons of added features and benefits to the android platform |
| 20:36.16 | sjansen | I wouldn't expect someone who can't distinguish between polish and Polish to understand. :-P |
| 20:36.32 | elg | The Polish polish their kielbasa. |
| 20:36.42 | eightyeight | uh, okay... |
| 20:37.49 | rsimpkins | Hehe, we lost about 25 people during that whole marxist debate. |
| 20:38.03 | rsimpkins | I guess they were feeling free speech was a little too marxist - or anyoing. |
| 20:39.50 | fungus | wow, 25? How does that number compared to total subscribed? |
| 20:40.37 | sjansen | just doesn't understand vast silent majority on LUG lists |
| 20:40.39 | rsimpkins | We have about 415 subscribed right now. |
| 20:41.22 | fungus | wow, over 6%. That is significant. |
| 20:41.39 | rsimpkins | Well, most of them joined plug-announce. |
| 20:41.54 | stderr | it was actually kinda sorta on topic even |
| 20:42.20 | *** join/#utah orsonj (~orson@b22222.bookstore.usu.edu) |
| 20:42.20 | elg | i'm usually part of the plug vast silent majority these days, mostly because i rarely open the plug folder these days |
| 20:42.24 | JoshH | whenever i don't care to read emails, i just mark a thread read and ignore it. not sure why so many people are so intolerant of a little OT |
| 20:42.45 | elg | the marxist thread was on topic? (I didn't read it, but I fail to see how a "marxist thread" could be.) |
| 20:42.57 | rsimpkins | hehe |
| 20:43.06 | JoshH | i think a "rule" that ot threads be marked as OT would help though |
| 20:43.07 | elg | (I don't even read half of the on-topic stuff in plug these days) |
| 20:43.13 | JoshH | but of course people would still need to bother with their filters |
| 20:43.45 | rsimpkins | Utah already has one of those stuffy "no controversy" Linux lists. |
| 20:43.59 | sjansen | accusses JoshH of being a fascist |
| 20:44.22 | rsimpkins | PLUG's joy is in its freedom. |
| 20:44.25 | elg | rsimpkins: what's that? |
| 20:44.28 | sjansen | issadbecause hisspacebarjust starteddying |
| 20:44.40 | elg | ~space sjansen |
| 20:44.42 | fungus | The OT posts are often more fun than the on-topic ones. |
| 20:44.50 | elg | OT stands for both on and off topic. |
| 20:45.04 | levi | sjansen: Your spacebar has eddies? |
| 20:45.17 | rsimpkins | elg: the SLLUG guys are known for putting the breaks on anything that may possibly offend someone via private "shuddup" e-mails. |
| 20:45.27 | rsimpkins | PLUG relies on sjansen to tell jokes to stop the argument. |
| 20:45.38 | JoshH | i usually read the first few OT emails, then ignore them after the thread goes on for too long |
| 20:45.39 | elg | which usually starts an unrelated argument. :) |
| 20:46.18 | JoshH | rsimpkins: maybe on the mailing list sign up page, add a little note about how it's packed with OT discussion and suggest filtering for anal people |
| 20:46.27 | rsimpkins | IMHO, nothing is off-topic if it is directed at your peers. |
| 20:46.55 | eightyeight | plug just isn't what it used to be |
| 20:47.03 | rsimpkins | eightyeight: no UG is. |
| 20:47.11 | unum | strangles eightyeight |
| 20:47.12 | eightyeight | seems uug is act... yup |
| 20:47.19 | rsimpkins | The world is a changein' |
| 20:47.27 | JoshH | i don't think LUGs are what they used to be either |
| 20:47.33 | sjansen | Huh. Look at that. Ryan actually ran with my meeting description. |
| 20:47.43 | JoshH | nobody asks other people for linux help anymore, now that we have google and ubuntu forums and irc |
| 20:47.46 | unum | ~lart joshh |
| 20:47.46 | ibot | raises middle finger to joshh |
| 20:47.51 | *** part/#utah eggyknap (~jtolley@unaffiliated/eggyknap) |
| 20:47.52 | rsimpkins | sjansen: I thought it was pretty good. |
| 20:48.22 | elg | well irc isn't new |
| 20:48.27 | JoshH | the only time i ever went to a plug meeting was the damian conway talk |
| 20:48.33 | elg | but our little channel has blossomed somewhat to the detriment of plug |
| 20:48.54 | eightyeight | rsimpkins: actually, i just tried sending an email, and it seems i can't |
| 20:49.01 | fungus | lol, I was at that one. how many years ago was it? |
| 20:49.02 | sjansen | The air can cometh! |
| 20:49.08 | rsimpkins | eightyeight: an e-mail to where? |
| 20:49.14 | eightyeight | plug@plug.org |
| 20:49.25 | levi | I show up at PLUG meetings randomly, when I happen to remember and not have anything else important planned. |
| 20:49.27 | rsimpkins | eightyeight: msg me what address your sending from, and I'll check for issues. |
| 20:49.38 | eightyeight | i used to. not sure what happened. i certainly haven't changed my subscription |
| 20:50.14 | levi | PLUG is the best mailing list in Utah that I know of for arguing with libertarians. ;) |
| 20:50.15 | rsimpkins | eightyeight: It looks fine according to mailman. |
| 20:50.37 | fungus | for me the topic has to be really good, to risk the danger of driving all the way down beyond the Zion curtain. |
| 20:51.05 | eightyeight | tries to send the email again |
| 20:51.15 | fungus | where no liberal is safe, and lighting strikes are common. |
| 20:51.20 | sjansen | fungus: So I can expect to see you May 12th then? |
| 20:51.25 | rsimpkins | eightyeight: From the mailman log: post.1:Apr 22 13:02:38 2010 (21821) post to plug from aaron.toponce@gmail.com, size=4200, message-id=<4BD09D37.4080004@gmail.com>, success |
| 20:52.02 | levi | fungus: I live in Lehi, and I haven't been lynched yet. |
| 20:52.03 | fungus | sjansen, of course. There is no God other than sjansen. |
| 20:52.08 | fungus | bows |
| 20:52.10 | levi | Maybe I'm just not sufficiently liberal. |
| 20:52.12 | rsimpkins | lol |
| 20:52.17 | eightyeight | sent |
| 20:52.17 | elg | levi: one of the mysteries of the universe |
| 20:52.42 | fungus | Lehi is just the neutral zone, i think. |
| 20:52.57 | sjansen | I'm not deity. Merely the enlightened messenger of Truth. |
| 20:53.17 | eightyeight | ... and it didn't bounce this time around |
| 20:53.22 | eightyeight | meh |
| 20:53.23 | levi | There is no God but God, and sjansen is his prophet? |
| 20:54.06 | sjansen | s/is his prophet/will probably end up handling his IT decisions/ |
| 20:54.27 | rsimpkins | sjansen: So, you're saying your God's CTO? |
| 20:54.53 | unum | randsom love is the cto of the lds church |
| 20:54.54 | sjansen | Only if CTO means I have the power to smite PHP developers. |
| 20:54.55 | rsimpkins | I'm sure that is on your resume here.... burried some place in the 52 pages. |
| 20:55.00 | unum | I just like mentioning his name |
| 20:55.21 | Gate | http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_14976892 |
| 20:55.46 | rsimpkins | Gate: Yeah, we already made fun of them. ;-) |
| 20:55.59 | Gate | reads |
| 20:56.30 | eightyeight | it's a touchy subject with sjansen |
| 20:56.47 | fungus | "And thus the great sjansen did smite the PHP dev, saying "Woe be unto the developer who did not sanitize user input"" |
| 20:56.48 | eightyeight | maybe god's cto can save palm |
| 20:58.17 | TodPunk | sjansen: not many people feel they have anything to add. This is especially true in tech fields, where the majority of the quiet ones from our childhood end up going. |
| 20:58.21 | goozbach | wait... sjansen is moving to HP to be the CTO over the palm division? |
| 20:58.22 | Tene | Hmm. I had been planning to buy a pre soon. Is this good news for palm device owners, or bad news? |
| 20:58.58 | TodPunk | (and in case anyone didn't follow, that was from about 20 minutes ago >.>) |
| 20:59.05 | sjansen | Hard to know, but better than when Palm looked doomed. |
| 20:59.10 | JoshH | levi: it's probably a lot easier for mormon liberals, since you don't care about things like lack of nightlife |
| 20:59.35 | rsimpkins | What is a mormon liberal? |
| 20:59.37 | JoshH | so you just avoid talking about politics with your neighbors and have a "normal" life |
| 21:00.29 | JoshH | rsimpkins: a mormon who is liberal? |
| 21:00.48 | JoshH | i dunno if liberal is the right term for levi though |
| 21:00.50 | levi | JoshH: What kind of nightlife are you referring to? |
| 21:00.59 | rsimpkins | That sort of seems like an oxymomon though. |
| 21:01.13 | JoshH | bars |
| 21:01.18 | levi | An oxymormon? |
| 21:01.33 | levi | There are bars in Utah County. |
| 21:01.34 | rsimpkins | oxymormon - now with extra cleaning power. |
| 21:01.36 | JoshH | my biggest gripe with lehi would be the hideous tracts of mcmansions |
| 21:02.41 | levi | JoshH: My part of Lehi is hideous tracts of starter homes surrounded by big lots, some of which have mcMansions, others of which have old farm homes. |
| 21:02.44 | rsimpkins | sjansen: Your description made clint want to throw up. what are you going to do about that? |
| 21:03.02 | sjansen | rsimpkins: Blame you. |
| 21:03.08 | JoshH | actually i'm not even sure if lehi is where i'm thinking of |
| 21:03.24 | unum | eagle mountain, et al have no night life |
| 21:03.27 | JoshH | but at some point on the way to cabelas, there's that area with all those brown colored, square mcmansions right next to eachother |
| 21:03.33 | unum | I think they finally got a supermarket |
| 21:03.37 | JoshH | on both sides of the freeway |
| 21:03.50 | fozzmoo | JoshH: Traverse Ridge. |
| 21:03.50 | *** join/#utah tensai (~tensai@2001:470:b:11c:2a0:ccff:fe3e:ed9f) |
| 21:03.53 | levi | JoshH: Lehi is a really big chunk of land these days. |
| 21:03.53 | rsimpkins | wal-mart is a great place to spend your eavenings. |
| 21:04.09 | unum | they don't have one of those |
| 21:04.10 | levi | I live on the outskirts of the old part of Lehi. |
| 21:04.12 | JoshH | fozzmoo: i thought that was closer to draper for some reason |
| 21:04.19 | rsimpkins | saratoga springs does. |
| 21:04.27 | rsimpkins | which is sorta close to eagle mountain. |
| 21:04.27 | unum | ah |
| 21:04.30 | unum | ya |
| 21:04.32 | unum | that's true |
| 21:04.43 | fozzmoo | JoshH: I understand that development has FTTP... at least it was supposed to when they started selling lots. |
| 21:04.59 | rsimpkins | One of my co-workers is on that system. |
| 21:05.13 | fozzmoo | rsimpkins: Oh? So they do have it? |
| 21:05.14 | levi | When you live in eagle mountain, night life is taking your RV out to five-mile with beer, shotguns, and ATVs in tow. |
| 21:05.16 | JoshH | wasn't that the broadweave thing? |
| 21:05.41 | fozzmoo | levi: Jayce^ would know. He's been in EM for like 7 years. |
| 21:05.45 | levi | Which is probably significantly more fun than bars, to their credit. |
| 21:05.47 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: Yes, he says he loves it. |
| 21:05.52 | JoshH | levi, don't you mean shasta |
| 21:05.55 | sjansen | Guns? In Eagle Mountain? Surely you jest. |
| 21:06.18 | fozzmoo | just filled out a form for a background check. Ahh the joys of new job. |
| 21:06.25 | unum | someone named a town after jake garn? |
| 21:06.34 | fozzmoo | hasn't had a "real" new job in like 8 years. |
| 21:06.58 | levi | JoshH: There are plenty of beer drinkers around. |
| 21:07.37 | fozzmoo | Even where I live, I see people gearing up to go ride their ATVs and stuff when I'm driving to church. |
| 21:07.39 | levi | JoshH: Everyone may be Mormon in Utah County, but at least 1/4 are lapsed to some degree. ;) |
| 21:08.00 | unum | but they still hate liberals :p |
| 21:08.07 | levi | Yes. |
| 21:08.11 | unum | those are my favorite |
| 21:08.18 | levi | And Mexicans. |
| 21:08.45 | unum | like the guy in my ward who said obama was bad because he doesn't go to church every sunday, and I was trying to remember the last time I saw HIM at church |
| 21:08.58 | unum | though to his credit he was helping us move one of the girls in the ward |
| 21:09.06 | JoshH | i thought he was bad because he went to reverend wright |
| 21:09.06 | fozzmoo | Liberal Mexicans... man, that makes me want to grab my gun right now. |
| 21:09.28 | JoshH | fozzmoo: what about liberal gay mexican socialists? |
| 21:09.55 | unum | I set the background on the conference room computer to che tux today |
| 21:10.25 | fozzmoo | I trust that Mr. Obama hasn't been able to find a sufficiently radical enough Church of Black Liberation Theology in the D.C. area, so he's keeping to himself. I don't hold it against him that he's not attending. |
| 21:10.52 | JoshH | i'm sure he prays to allah 5 times daily in his private white house residence |
| 21:11.31 | unum | that's what I should have said |
| 21:11.42 | markl_ | fozzmoo: where is your new job? |
| 21:11.57 | unum | actually they called the guy into the elder quorum presidency |
| 21:12.17 | unum | they're pretty desperate after all I'm the first coulselor |
| 21:16.49 | fozzmoo | It's also possible there is a congregation of Black Liberation Theology near the White House, but out of respect for its parishioners feelings towards law-enforcement (i.e. Secret Service), Mr. Obama abstains from attending. |
| 21:17.06 | fozzmoo | markl_: The company is based in Pittsburgh. I'll be telecommuting. |
| 21:21.03 | rsimpkins | I'm sorting nearly 1 billion text entries. |
| 21:21.41 | unum | my windows computer shuts off randomly from time to time..... |
| 21:22.27 | TodPunk | I was asked in an interview for a programming position how I would go about that, and I said it depended on the data, but the challenge would be what structures to use to store the data instead of memory. They wanted me to say "the linux 'sort' command" and I could have strangled them. |
| 21:22.29 | sjansen | reveals that fozzmoo is going to work for GM securing government funding to repay government loans |
| 21:23.02 | fozzmoo | Isn't that great? |
| 21:23.13 | fozzmoo | GM makes a big PR event out of the fact they've repaid their loans... |
| 21:23.27 | fozzmoo | then people do some digging and find out they repaid it with other TARP funds?! |
| 21:24.14 | levi | Makes for good TV ads, though. |
| 21:24.32 | rsimpkins | TodPunk: In my case, the trick was figuring out how to sub group the data in a away that makes sense. Still, it will take about 2 hours when I'm finally done. |
| 21:25.38 | rsimpkins | How many people would have lost their jobs if GM had gone out of business? |
| 21:26.00 | levi | The other half of the people in Detroit. :P |
| 21:26.57 | sjansen | http://imgur.com/a/R85WU/doublefired |
| 21:27.02 | TodPunk | See, that question is a bit misleading. How many unskilled workers would have lost their jobs? How many skilled workers? That's a more important set of numbers. The definition of "skilled" would need to be defined, though, I suppose. |
| 21:27.41 | levi | Why are you differentiating between skilled and unskilled? |
| 21:28.01 | fozzmoo | So, that's the criteria now? A poorly managed company marred with union corruption should be propped up by the govt if more than X people work there? |
| 21:28.26 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: hehe. no. We should have let them fail. |
| 21:28.27 | TodPunk | If 20 engineers lost their jobs, it effects things differently than if 20 cashiers lose their jobs. |
| 21:28.47 | markl_ | TodPunk: yeah, a lower burn rate :P |
| 21:28.59 | sjansen | Because cashiers don't have families? |
| 21:29.17 | sjansen | Because cashiers only shop at Wal-Mart? |
| 21:29.31 | sjansen | Because cashiers can be replaced by illegal immigrants? |
| 21:29.35 | TodPunk | no, because cashiers, unless they're used to some unionized excess wages, can find work like, tomorrow, if they put their minds to it. |
| 21:29.36 | rsimpkins | We need to start bleeding more if we are going to get through this. |
| 21:30.07 | levi | Unless no one is hiring that many cashiers. |
| 21:30.21 | levi | Or other unskilled positions. |
| 21:30.44 | TodPunk | well sure, but that ratio being lower than the number of engineering positions available is highly unlikely |
| 21:30.57 | levi | rsimpkins: I had my appendix removed. Does that count? |
| 21:31.09 | rsimpkins | levi: Only if you didn't pay for it, at all. |
| 21:31.27 | sjansen | It is not my experienced that unskilled work has been any easier to find than skilled work lately. Of course, that's merely based on watching people I know. Maybe they're just sitting at home playing XBox instead of looking for work as cashiers. |
| 21:31.35 | rsimpkins | because if you're poor, and you need your appendix out, then according to some people I work with you should have died. |
| 21:32.24 | sjansen | There may be fewer jobs for nuclear engineers than cashiers, but there are also fewer candidates. |
| 21:32.43 | TodPunk | the only reason many unskilled laborers losing their jobs becomes much of a problem is because the local community relied on it (like a local factory shutting down) or because they're just too lazy to find/do other work |
| 21:32.50 | levi | rsimpkins: My wife handed a credit card to someone at the emergency room for a co-pay, so I'm pretty sure I didn't get it for free. Though the sign did say they'd do charity cases. |
| 21:33.06 | rsimpkins | sjansen: Did you hear the NPR story yesterday they did at the job fair, where workers were still hoping that magically they'd get their old jobs back, and they wouldn't have to switch careers? |
| 21:33.58 | levi | TodPunk: When a job market is suddenly flooded with unskilled laborers, you think it will be easy for them to find jobs? |
| 21:34.02 | rsimpkins | The point they were trying to make is that it seems a lot of people who have lost their jobs aren't 'getting' it. |
| 21:34.23 | TodPunk | sjansen: My wife did some calling around right after I lost work to see how fast she could get a job if we needed to. She had 3 offers within a day and she wasn't even interviewed. That's just Orem, though. *shrug* |
| 21:34.45 | levi | TodPunk: Orem is rather different than Detroit, I'm sure. |
| 21:34.57 | TodPunk | levi: hence "local community" but yes. |
| 21:35.00 | rsimpkins | Yeah, 6-8% unemployment is still not terrible. |
| 21:36.06 | TodPunk | It's that mentality that somehow the company everyone works for is responsible for everyone's financial well-being. An idea that hasn't worked except in fringe cases for at least the last two decades. |
| 21:36.16 | rsimpkins | I actually want to help people in detroit by giving them a leg up in the Utah IT sector. Some think it is great. Others think they should stay in detroit and rot, and could care less. |
| 21:36.26 | markl_ | TodPunk: what line of work is she in? |
| 21:36.30 | rsimpkins | So, it has been hard to move it forward. |
| 21:36.34 | TodPunk | markl_: she's not in any. |
| 21:37.03 | TodPunk | They were pretty much all just $9/hr jobs |
| 21:37.08 | TodPunk | give or take |
| 21:39.01 | levi | I'm just saying, when a company town's company goes out of business, it's going to be hard for both skilled and unskilled people to get jobs there. |
| 21:39.45 | rsimpkins | Aren't there some examples of ghost towns in our history that simply indicate death of a town is sometimes normal and okay? |
| 21:40.26 | unum | detroit's not technically a town |
| 21:40.29 | levi | I'm not sure you can say that ghost towns 'simply indicate' anything. |
| 21:40.30 | TodPunk | levi: I agree. But if they're industrious and all were to go find work NOT there, as in elsewhere, the numbers effect things differently. |
| 21:40.48 | rsimpkins | levi: Not all ghost towns, but some? |
| 21:40.54 | TodPunk | rsimpkins: nothing lasts forever =cP |
| 21:42.46 | levi | rsimpkins: How do you even go about quantifying or justifying something like that? I would be suprised if someone hasn't tried, but there are probably plenty of people in disagreement. |
| 21:43.37 | TodPunk | disagreement that towns die? |
| 21:43.59 | levi | Disagreement that the death of a particular town is simply normal and okay. |
| 21:44.35 | rsimpkins | or that it sometimes can be. |
| 21:44.50 | TodPunk | well, tragedy does happen, and towns that have all their eggs in one basket do tend to have a certain risk factor they may not be calculated well. |
| 21:45.00 | rsimpkins | for example, if you build a town next to a gold mine, and the resources run out, your town is probably not going to last. |
| 21:45.00 | TodPunk | The "okay" bit is the debated point. |
| 21:45.11 | TodPunk | The rest is just what happens in certain situations. |
| 21:45.27 | TodPunk | yeah, what he said |
| 21:45.41 | rsimpkins | keeping such a town going seems like a waste of resources. |
| 21:45.51 | rsimpkins | I'm thinking of columbia, TN (i used to live there) |
| 21:46.09 | levi | People do all sorts of things that seem to others like wastes of resources. |
| 21:46.11 | rsimpkins | If GM had gone out of biz, nearly the entire town would have been shutdown - and almost everyone would loose their jobs. |
| 21:46.37 | levi | They usually have some sort of internal justification for it. |
| 21:46.48 | rsimpkins | Any way, the point is, do you keep such towns going - or let them die? |
| 21:47.01 | TodPunk | let them die |
| 21:47.02 | *** join/#utah Sargun (~Sargun@atarack/Staff/Sargun) |
| 21:47.03 | JoshH | how would you keep a town going? |
| 21:47.12 | TodPunk | anything else is just a lie someone wants to perpetuate |
| 21:47.34 | levi | You guys ever been to museums? |
| 21:47.43 | TodPunk | reminds me of people trying to stop forest fires, only to have a much BIGGER forest fire decades later that nobody can control. |
| 21:47.50 | JoshH | the problem is, when nobody moves out of dying towns and they are just full of crime, we still need to pay for all the law enforcement stuff even though nobody really has a good reason to live there |
| 21:47.57 | JoshH | look at a place like gary indiana |
| 21:48.06 | TodPunk | levi: my favorite was the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago! |
| 21:48.35 | levi | Yeah, museums are pretty much wastes of resources. Just a bunch of old useless crap. |
| 21:48.49 | rsimpkins | levi: huh? |
| 21:48.50 | levi | Or rags with pigment on them, or something. |
| 21:49.06 | TodPunk | I think you might have gone too far out there in the analogy |
| 21:49.13 | rsimpkins | I pay money to visit museums, a lot of money, so I'm not sure they are totally worthless. |
| 21:49.30 | levi | Well, people decide to stay in dying towns. |
| 21:49.52 | TodPunk | I believe they have the right to do so, come what may |
| 21:49.56 | rsimpkins | levi: Are you willing to send them money to stay there? |
| 21:50.12 | levi | In some situations, maybe. |
| 21:50.27 | rsimpkins | Yup, that's the only thing I was trying to say. |
| 21:51.02 | levi | Maybe you could rephrase so I understand. |
| 21:51.35 | rsimpkins | My point is that some times you would not send money to save the town - you would let it die becaue keeping it going would be a waste of resources and a bad idea. |
| 21:52.02 | sjansen | I would send money to keep Hershey, PA going. |
| 21:52.17 | sjansen | Just knowing that there's an American city that smells like chocolate makes me happy. |
| 21:52.48 | levi | rsimpkins: You say that like it would be some sort of objective decision. |
| 21:52.51 | JoshH | i think it's worth investing in a protection system for new orleans that would actually work well |
| 21:52.56 | rsimpkins | sjansen: what is that town that disney built, where it is supposed to look like a disney movie? |
| 21:53.02 | JoshH | other people think we should just let the place flood |
| 21:53.06 | levi | rsimpkins: And that anyone would come to the same decision. |
| 21:53.43 | rsimpkins | levi: I'm saying it like some times it isn't a clear cut line. Some times you think it is worth it, and some times not, and it is very much an individual kind of thing. |
| 21:53.54 | TodPunk | levi: there are objective points about such a decision. The history of other ghost towns might lend a hand to view that decision correctly. |
| 21:54.30 | rsimpkins | I personally think keeping the people of columbia employed is a very good thing. |
| 21:54.53 | rsimpkins | putting them out of work seems like a very damaging and expensive problem to have to deal with. |
| 21:54.58 | JoshH | when we have military bases that exist only to keep small towns alive, then i have to wonder |
| 21:55.06 | JoshH | but blame the senators for that |
| 21:55.09 | TodPunk | I personally would say that JUST because a bunch of people lost their jobs is not enough of a reason to pay to keep a town going. It happens. |
| 21:55.16 | levi | rsimpkins: So, you asked, apparently, if there were any small towns where it was clear and obvious to everyone that they should have died. |
| 21:55.18 | TodPunk | It should probably factor in. |
| 21:55.29 | rsimpkins | levi: yes, are there? |
| 21:55.36 | levi | I don't think so. |
| 21:55.43 | rsimpkins | hehe, great. :) |
| 21:55.49 | levi | Though it's possible that there are. |
| 21:55.54 | TodPunk | is pretty sure he's driven through a couple |
| 21:56.14 | rsimpkins | Like that town with the coal mine that caught on fire. |
| 21:56.22 | TodPunk | Silent Hill |
| 21:56.24 | rsimpkins | and they actually had to finally kick the last people off. |
| 21:56.27 | TodPunk | great vacation spot |
| 21:56.39 | rsimpkins | Just recently, if I am not mistaken. |
| 21:57.01 | rsimpkins | People lived in this deserted town for years, and the fire is still burning, finally the authorities forced them out. The town needed to die. |
| 21:57.19 | levi | rsimpkins: Apparently the people who lived there disagreed. |
| 21:57.24 | rsimpkins | Yup. |
| 21:57.31 | sjansen | rsimpkins: Have you considered a third option? We could just put the people of Columbia in prison instead. |
| 21:58.07 | rsimpkins | sjansen: Only 50% in prison, then we can pay the other 50% to keep them there, right? |
| 21:58.48 | levi | Prison is the great American welfare program. :P |
| 21:59.16 | rsimpkins | Did you see how happy the pirate they captured was to be going to an american prison? |
| 21:59.22 | rsimpkins | He was BEEMING! |
| 21:59.37 | rsimpkins | There are worse places, I'm told. |
| 21:59.46 | TodPunk | Every couple years they could switch spots! |
| 22:00.14 | levi | The inner city streets, maybe. |
| 22:02.24 | sjansen | Easy, guys.. I put my pants on just like the rest of you -- one leg at a time. Except, once my pants are on, I make gold records. |
| 22:02.36 | levi | I gotta have more cowbell! |
| 22:04.19 | TodPunk | doesn't do pants |
| 22:06.21 | levi | Shorts? Kilt? |
| 22:06.21 | TodPunk | mostly pajamas of some sort |
| 22:07.17 | goozbach | http://developertown.com/company/the-house-concept/ |
| 22:07.20 | goozbach | I want a house! |
| 22:08.37 | sjansen | I wonder if there's enough time for my order to arrive before the Plug meeting... http://www.utilikilts.com/company/products/kilts/ |
| 22:08.53 | levi | A friend of mine wears those. |
| 22:10.38 | TodPunk | I want to build a house now |
| 22:10.59 | elg | bleh, python's priority queue is uglier than most of its ugly builtins |
| 22:13.21 | TodPunk | care to elaborate, elg? like a "why" kind of thing? |
| 22:14.25 | elg | x = []; heapq.heappush(x, 42); smallest = x[0]; smallest = heapq.heappop(x) |
| 22:15.07 | elg | it's not a data structure, it's a set of ugly-named functions that maintain a heap in a regular python list |
| 22:15.32 | elg | that's the sort of thing you expect in C, not a high-level object-oriented scripting language. |
| 22:16.53 | elg | x = PriorityQueue([1,2,3,4]); x.min() or min(x); x.pop(); x.push(42) |
| 22:17.01 | elg | that's what I consider sane, off the top of my head. |
| 22:17.03 | levi | This abstraction... it's so leaky! |
| 22:17.21 | elg | and I can't imagine how it'd be any less performant. |
| 22:17.37 | elg | you could even have x.list() to expose the underlying list if you felt like breaking your abstraction |
| 22:17.43 | TodPunk | elg: heapq and PriorityQueue are two different things, I though. |
| 22:17.53 | elg | no, just different names |
| 22:18.00 | elg | http://docs.python.org/library/heapq.html |
| 22:18.24 | TodPunk | http://docs.python.org/library/queue.html#Queue.PriorityQueue |
| 22:18.41 | TodPunk | introduced in 2.6 |
| 22:22.20 | elg | ah, interesting. googling priority queue for python got me to heapq, which has been in since 2.3, so I had no idea to consider an alternative was out there |
| 22:22.58 | TodPunk | apparently there were complaints about heapq |
| 22:23.33 | levi | Python has lots of old cruft in it. |
| 22:24.45 | TodPunk | which is odd for how young it is |
| 22:25.05 | levi | It's not *that* young. |
| 22:28.48 | levi | Version 1.0 was in '94. |
| 22:29.37 | TodPunk | Huh, I have learned new things |
| 22:30.19 | levi | Apparently Guido started writing the implementation in '89. |
| 22:30.26 | sjansen | Python is only a tiny bit younger than Perl. And Perl ain't no spring chicken anymore. |
| 22:30.53 | levi | I'm pretty sure I first used it in the mid 90s sometime. |
| 22:30.56 | unum | perl is 87 |
| 22:31.14 | unum | I mean was first realeased in 87 iirc |
| 22:31.43 | unum | so 23 vs 16 |
| 22:31.52 | levi | Python was first published in 1991. |
| 22:31.58 | orsonj | (according to wikipedia php is newer than python. ('95 and '91 respectively)) |
| 22:32.27 | levi | Of course PHP is newer than python. How young are you people, anyway? :P |
| 22:32.44 | elg | Queue isn't really what I need though. I don't need fancy schmancy multi-consumer queues |
| 22:32.50 | elg | I need a priority queue data structure. |
| 22:33.00 | TodPunk | Queue.PriorityQueue |
| 22:33.03 | elg | I'll stick with heapq in all its glory. |
| 22:33.18 | elg | yes I see it. |
| 22:33.41 | TodPunk | well, to each his own I guess |
| 22:33.43 | elg | and the api is rather nicer. but missing some important bits. like peeking at the item. |
| 22:34.36 | elg | and not needing to call task_done, and wondering if all this synchronization stuff is going to break in some weird way at the unlikeliest time. |
| 22:53.35 | levi | RedHat's original graphical package manager, glint, was written in Python. |
| 22:57.47 | levi | 3.0.3 was the first to include it, and it was released in 1996. |
| 22:58.40 | markl_ | perhaps that's why i waited til red hat 4 to try it |
| 22:58.55 | markl_ | slackware's package management 0wnz |
| 23:01.34 | TodPunk | first tried linux with redhat 4.1, installed from floppies, and it was a huge annoying process |
| 23:02.32 | TodPunk | at least I think it was 4.1 |
| 23:02.43 | levi | "Programming Python" came out in '96, so that's probably around when I first used it. |
| 23:43.34 | eightyeight | heh |
| 23:43.49 | eightyeight | more like you are pwned by slackware's package management |
| 23:44.29 | eightyeight | or like i was today with solaris' |
| 23:49.18 | Sargun | elg, use rabbitmq |