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| 01:19.26 | herlo | anyone know what's going on with sllug?? |
| 01:20.32 | sjansen | Last I heard it's on. Wireshark and friends. |
| 01:21.08 | herlo | sjansen: right, but I'm sitting at the U tonight |
| 01:21.21 | herlo | and all three rooms it possibly could be in are full of students |
| 01:21.38 | sjansen | Room 101 or 103 (Look for the SLLUG signs on the doors) in |
| 01:21.38 | sjansen | Lower Warnock Engineering Building |
| 01:21.41 | sjansen | No sign? |
| 01:21.56 | herlo | yup, I |
| 01:21.58 | herlo | am there |
| 01:22.00 | herlo | no signs |
| 01:22.08 | herlo | looked at least 3 times |
| 01:22.13 | herlo | I've been here plenty before |
| 01:23.24 | herlo | kind of odd if you ask me |
| 01:24.47 | sjansen | Weird. |
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| 01:26.26 | herlo | didn't think to look up the stairs, they've never been up there |
| 01:26.40 | herlo | but another guy came in just now and said, it's up here... :( |
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| 01:56.53 | Tene | sjansen: ping |
| 01:59.35 | sjansen | Pong |
| 02:03.58 | sjansen | Tene: pong |
| 02:05.03 | Tene | sjansen: can you ask the Palm Pre to repeatedly alert on SMS until acknowledged? |
| 02:10.28 | sjansen | Tene: I'm poking around and testing right now, but it doesn't look good. |
| 02:10.35 | Tene | :( |
| 02:18.40 | sjansen | Tene: Looks like PreWare has a patch for repeating alerts. Downloading now. |
| 02:23.24 | sjansen | Tene: Okay, got it working. You can choose interval between alerts and max alerts. |
| 02:24.09 | sjansen | Not an official WebOS feature yet, but if you don't mind putting your phone in developer mode (with no real downside), it's easy to enable repeating alerts. |
| 02:24.17 | Tene | Is this patch something that looks trustworthy and reliable? Do you trust similar patches from this source? |
| 02:24.31 | sjansen | yes |
| 02:24.47 | Tene | Okay, great. Thanks. :) |
| 02:34.40 | TodPunk | Anyone else going to Networld Interop next week? |
| 02:49.27 | TodPunk | I'm going to take that long silence as a no from those present =cP |
| 02:49.42 | jsmith | TodPunk: Uh yeah... that'd be a no |
| 02:51.22 | TodPunk | well ok then =cP |
| 02:52.15 | jsmith | Doesn't sound like any fun to me |
| 02:53.14 | TodPunk | If you're into technology, they can have some interesting stuff. I like a lot of marketing aspects, too. I'm fairly business minded. I can see how it wouldn't appeal to most, though. |
| 02:53.27 | TodPunk | I'd rather go to CES, to be fair. |
| 02:53.48 | jsmith | I spend enough time at conferences that appeal to me... I try to avoid ones that don't. |
| 02:54.15 | TodPunk | jsmith: what on earth does anyone in Tooele need a programmer for? Haven't they heard of civilization and how programming talent tends to follow that trend more? |
| 02:54.48 | jsmith | TodPunk: Hey, I don't know. My best friend from high school just pinged me and asked me to put the word out that they're looking for a programmer. |
| 02:54.51 | jsmith | TodPunk: That's all I know. |
| 02:54.58 | jsmith | is just the messenger |
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| 02:55.17 | TodPunk | lol |
| 02:55.26 | TodPunk | Do you even know what language they're looking for? |
| 02:57.12 | jsmith | No clue. |
| 02:57.30 | jsmith | It could be Prolog or Algol for all I know... |
| 02:57.34 | TodPunk | xD |
| 02:57.48 | TodPunk | wants to learn D |
| 02:58.03 | jsmith | Not gonna take the plunge to F#, eh? |
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| 02:58.22 | TodPunk | I already have a .NET language that works just fine. |
| 02:59.06 | jsmith | wanders off to get some shut-eye |
| 02:59.10 | jsmith | G'night all! |
| 02:59.22 | TodPunk | sleep well |
| 03:00.52 | jsmith | You too |
| 03:01.00 | mheath | QWest found some loose coax wiring connections, which were repaired. All errors and alarms have cleared from the MUX; we are holding the ticket open for monitoring for |
| 03:01.17 | mheath | Sorry, overactive mouse decided it would help me paste that into the wrong window :) |
| 03:02.39 | TodPunk | why is qwest using coax? |
| 03:03.25 | mheath | TodPunk: This is backend stuff, for a DS3. Beyond that, I have no idea. I'm not a circuit engineer :) |
| 03:03.25 | TodPunk | I suppose maybe a DS3 or somesuch would require it |
| 03:03.29 | TodPunk | bah |
| 03:03.32 | TodPunk | you totally beat me |
| 03:05.25 | mheath | (For the record, I hate Qwest as a circuit provider) |
| 03:08.11 | TodPunk | You certainly can. I have had good and bad experiences with both Qwest and Integra. My XO experience is limited to their SIP over an MPLS, which I've been fine with. *shrug* |
| 03:09.44 | mheath | We deal regularly with QWest, Verizon, Sprint, and AT& as our main domestic circuit providers. QWest routinely fails in comparison to all of the others. |
| 03:10.40 | TodPunk | Of that list, Qwest is the underdog that has the least amount of proper processes and expertise, so I can see that being quite valid. |
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| 07:19.30 | *** topic/#utah is logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/#utah | <ibot> I for one welcome our new RHEL6 overlords. |
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| 15:58.47 | fozzmoo | is leaving for PHX soon. |
| 15:59.48 | fozzmoo | I'm flying all over the country today. |
| 15:59.59 | JoshH | what for? |
| 16:00.01 | fozzmoo | Doing my part to offset all the silly nonsense our environmentalist friends are up to today. |
| 16:00.15 | fozzmoo | ;-) |
| 16:00.20 | fozzmoo | I have a job interview in Pittsburgh |
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| 16:00.44 | JoshH | i hear that's a fitting name for the place |
| 16:01.07 | fozzmoo | yeah- I'm not excited about going to Pittsburgh, but I'm excited about being asked to come on-site. |
| 16:01.10 | JoshH | actually it's supposed to be nice, as far as eastern towns |
| 16:01.12 | fozzmoo | (It's a telecommute job.) |
| 16:02.17 | JoshH | what about phx? |
| 16:02.25 | fozzmoo | Connecting flight |
| 16:02.39 | JoshH | ah |
| 16:02.50 | fozzmoo | Meeting a buddy for lunch during my 2 hour layover. |
| 16:03.28 | fozzmoo | Middle seat assigned for almost all the legs of the trip there and back. |
| 16:03.37 | fozzmoo | That's what I get for flight last-minute. :) |
| 16:03.38 | JoshH | i had some decent buffalo chicken or something at sky harbor once |
| 16:03.53 | JoshH | some kind of airport sports bar/grill iirc |
| 16:04.05 | fozzmoo | It's a big airport. Lots of walking space. |
| 16:04.56 | cedwards | fozzmoo: I hope you like the Steelers |
| 16:05.17 | fozzmoo | Not much of a sports person. I don't follow basketball at all. ;-) |
| 16:05.26 | JoshH | wear a rofflesburger jersey |
| 16:05.57 | tvc123 | but only if you want to be mugged :) |
| 16:05.59 | JoshH | (steelers are football) |
| 16:06.17 | Migs | rofflesburgers and lollerfries |
| 16:06.23 | fozzmoo | I think I'll keep it low-key. :) |
| 16:06.47 | cedwards | fozzmoo: yeah, that's not an option in SixBurgh. Say it with me now "Ben Roethlisberger is the greatest man to ever live". "I love the Steelers" </chant> |
| 16:07.40 | cedwards | my sister and bro-in-law live there. The Steelers are just a normal part of your day out there, from what I understand. |
| 16:07.55 | JoshH | you should be able to get a decent sandwich there |
| 16:08.13 | fozzmoo | Too bad it's not Philly. I love cheesesteaks. :) |
| 16:08.34 | JoshH | ya but philly isn't the only place that has them over there afaik |
| 16:08.56 | JoshH | plus they're known for good subs in general |
| 16:09.04 | fozzmoo | yeah, but it's not a big deal to say, "I ate a cheesesteak in Pittsburgh." |
| 16:09.27 | fozzmoo | Alright. I'm outa here. Carbon Footprint INCREASE! |
| 16:09.33 | JoshH | i was supposed to have a philly trip last year but i got screwed |
| 16:09.53 | fozzmoo | leaves... a trail of exhaust fumes |
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| 16:12.15 | goozbach | fozzmoo: good asian fusion cafe downtown |
| 16:12.22 | goozbach | near the big steel building |
| 16:12.29 | goozbach | FYI |
| 16:12.43 | goozbach | go to a pirates game if you can |
| 16:12.46 | goozbach | it's a fun park |
| 16:14.35 | Gate | I came within a day of a trip to Holland paid for by work last year |
| 16:18.15 | *** topic/#utah by sjansen -> logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/#utah | We're going to need another Timmy! |
| 16:19.48 | *** topic/#utah by sjansen -> logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/#utah | Utah Linux $RANDOM | We're going to need another Timmy! |
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| 16:37.00 | sjansen | I was completely wrong about RHEL6 probably going final within 2 months. |
| 16:37.07 | sjansen | I can't remember where I got that number from, but looking at other source six months seems more likely. |
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| 16:38.05 | jsmith-teaching | sjansen: I'd be interested in hearing your first impressions, and seeing how the stack up against my own |
| 16:38.42 | sjansen | Haven't had a chance to install it yet. Based on just reading the release notes, it's going to be more awesome than I expected. |
| 16:39.06 | jsmith-teaching | I've installed it on a VM here, and have been quite pleased so far |
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| 16:52.26 | unum | he we're on RHEL 4!!!! |
| 16:52.32 | unum | s/he/hey |
| 17:05.32 | beelzebob | unum: I also am working with RHEL 4 |
| 17:06.11 | beelzebob | I've had to resort to rolling my own rpms for a lot of things |
| 17:07.53 | unum | atleast we got rid of the RHEL 3 servers several months ago |
| 17:11.15 | sjansen | Being able to keep systems around for a long time is why you use RHEL. |
| 17:12.03 | sjansen | Rolling custom RPMs is a seductive path that inevitably leads to misery. |
| 17:12.54 | sjansen | I've made that mistake too many times and I refuse to repeat it. |
| 17:14.17 | emcnabb | sjansen, I thought you enjoyed misery? |
| 17:14.31 | sjansen | I'll show you misery! |
| 17:14.33 | sjansen | ~punish emcnabb |
| 17:14.34 | ibot | ACTION forces emcnabb to install and use Windows |
| 17:14.46 | emcnabb | ouch |
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| 17:15.53 | Migs | ~migs emcnabb |
| 17:15.53 | ibot | ACTION forces emcnabb to learn perl from ^Migs^ |
| 17:16.08 | emcnabb | even worse! |
| 17:17.35 | goozbach | what's wrong with roling your own RPMs? |
| 17:19.51 | tensai | did you hate qwest before? get ready to feel worse. |
| 17:19.53 | tensai | http://gigaom.com/2010/04/22/centurytel-to-buy-qwest-to-become-a-big-bell/ |
| 17:24.06 | TodPunk | telecoms really need to just suck it up and start laying fiber everywhere they have copper |
| 17:24.34 | Migs | I wonder if I can use any of these PowerPoint-to-Flash converters in Wine |
| 17:25.05 | sjansen | goozbach: Updating your own RPMs. |
| 17:25.22 | Migs | that would be a nice addition to our media sharing site. Let users upload a PowerPoint, and use a converter that actually preserves all the animations (which OpenOffice fails to do) |
| 17:25.45 | goozbach | sjansen: koji" |
| 17:25.55 | goozbach | s/"/?/ |
| 17:25.59 | tensai | TodPunk: that would be good for customers, but not necessarily for the companies. in the short term anyway. |
| 17:26.29 | sjansen | goozbach: Clearly you haven't tried building all the RPMs neccessary to run RT from koji on RHEL5. |
| 17:26.42 | sjansen | I'm pretty sure the experience gave me PTSD. |
| 17:26.47 | TodPunk | tensai: there's a reason they call the fiber an investment |
| 17:27.04 | TodPunk | it wasn't good for the companies in the short term to lay copper back in the day either. |
| 17:28.22 | tensai | TodPunk: when they're losing 10% of their customers every year, it's hard to think long term |
| 17:28.37 | TodPunk | It's hard to think. Period. =cP |
| 17:28.40 | goozbach | fyi those of you who have kiddos |
| 17:28.57 | goozbach | may 22 is "take your kids to the park... and leave them there" day |
| 17:29.55 | TodPunk | That's my birthday! This is like, the best present ever! |
| 17:30.05 | ljenkins | from @XMission on twitter: Big news re: Qwest http://news.qwest.com/centurylinkqwestmerger |
| 17:30.24 | TodPunk | ljenkins: that is SO 10 minutes ago |
| 17:30.37 | ljenkins | didn't see anything in wthe scroll back, my bad |
| 17:30.40 | TodPunk | lol |
| 17:30.42 | ljenkins | ah there it is 11:19 |
| 17:30.43 | TodPunk | it's all good |
| 17:31.00 | TodPunk | I'd actually like a blog entry from xmission on what they're thinking about it all |
| 17:32.18 | ljenkins | pashdown: ^ |
| 17:33.29 | TodPunk | Man, I really need to be careful what I say in here sometimes >.> |
| 17:33.52 | ljenkins | might be too early to tell how things might change in the future, but it would be fun to see a obituary post of their experiences with the "now dead" qwest |
| 17:34.28 | fadein | I *might* be convinced that this is a good thing, if they'd at least come and update the 40+ year old phone lines in my neighborhood |
| 17:34.40 | fadein | because fiber would be asking a lot |
| 17:35.05 | tensai | wonders how many people have ever dealt with centurylink |
| 17:35.23 | fadein | tensai: have you dealt with them? |
| 17:35.49 | tensai | fadein: I have. much more than I would like. they are not anywhere near the top of the list in service or quality, imho. |
| 17:36.28 | emcnabb | at my place (in North Carolina) they're the only alternative outside of Time Warner Cable |
| 17:36.38 | emcnabb | I think they bought Embarq |
| 17:36.46 | fadein | tensai: so, pretty much par for the course |
| 17:36.47 | emcnabb | or something along those lines |
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| 17:37.00 | TodPunk | emcnabb: they merged when they were CenturyTel with Embarq |
| 17:37.02 | tensai | emcnabb: yes they did. about 2 years ago. |
| 17:37.09 | emcnabb | gotcha |
| 17:37.37 | tensai | fadein: but they're bad on telco scales |
| 17:39.29 | Migs | mildly NSFW: http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/fb-ati-os.jpg |
| 17:42.31 | fozzmoo | is at the SLC airport waiting to board plane. |
| 17:42.49 | goozbach | fozzmoo: PDX to SLC? |
| 17:43.00 | fozzmoo | PDX? |
| 17:43.10 | JoshH | mmmm, pdx |
| 17:43.12 | JoshH | lovely |
| 17:43.14 | fozzmoo | What is PDX? |
| 17:43.17 | JoshH | portland |
| 17:43.27 | fozzmoo | Oh. No. SLC to PHX |
| 17:43.31 | goozbach | PHX |
| 17:43.38 | goozbach | ahh |
| 17:43.41 | goozbach | I was confused |
| 17:43.47 | goozbach | I thought you were in PHX |
| 17:43.57 | JoshH | i wish i was going to PDX |
| 17:44.08 | fozzmoo | goozbach: Nope, not yet. Will be in a couple hours. |
| 17:44.27 | fozzmoo | Americans don't give up, btw. |
| 17:44.33 | fozzmoo | Glenn Beck is telling me right now. |
| 17:44.43 | fozzmoo | is listening to a podcast of yesterday's radio program. |
| 17:44.58 | fozzmoo | It's just an advertisement for LegalZoom.com |
| 17:45.20 | TodPunk | yeah, but it's no longer an indomitable spirit. We're just largely too stupid to quit while we're ahead. |
| 17:46.25 | emcnabb | oh no, not Glenn Beck |
| 17:47.03 | fozzmoo | Here's this... |
| 17:47.20 | fozzmoo | A friend of mine on Facebook posted this status: "In order for man to SURVIVE we have to rearrange nature. Those who are against "exploiting the earth" are against man surviving." |
| 17:48.07 | fozzmoo | I went with my daughter to the Bingham Canyon mine on a field trip a week or so ago. A geologist there gave a presentation and pointed out that EVERYTHING we use either comes out of the ground or is grown. |
| 17:48.17 | fozzmoo | So, he might be onto something there. |
| 17:48.47 | TodPunk | I'm all for exploiting the earth in clean and clever ways. I just don't want to end up like China's pollution all over the place. |
| 17:48.56 | TodPunk | clean being a relative term |
| 17:49.04 | Migs | meh, the earth is fine |
| 17:49.16 | fozzmoo | TodPunk: Yeah. Fortunately, the US leads the pack in being environmentally conscious. |
| 17:49.31 | TodPunk | fozzmoo: never enough for the environmentalists =cP |
| 17:49.33 | bonez2046 | amen, brother Fozz... |
| 17:49.53 | fozzmoo | bonez2046: :) |
| 17:50.10 | fozzmoo | Ooh. This plane I'm flying on is TINY. |
| 17:50.11 | bonez2046 | I thought Beck was off by 11.. should be El Rushbo on the radio now |
| 17:50.21 | fozzmoo | bonez2046: I'm listening to a podcast of yesterday's broadcast. |
| 17:50.23 | emcnabb | just because we "lead the pack" doesn't mean we do what we should |
| 17:50.25 | TodPunk | bonez2046: podcast |
| 17:50.32 | bonez2046 | oh.. ;) |
| 17:50.49 | fozzmoo | emcnabb: You're right. We're not perfect. |
| 17:51.17 | fozzmoo | Lots of hicks still throwing trash into the back of their pickup trucks to be blown all over the road when they drive somewhere. |
| 17:52.18 | JoshH | fozzmoo: you can't really let the most extreme environmentalists ruin the debate though |
| 17:52.18 | bonez2046 | I haven't entered the podcast realm yet.. hoping too soon though |
| 17:52.18 | emcnabb | JoshH, exactly environmentally conscious != green peace |
| 17:52.35 | fozzmoo | Man, Oracle is really aggressively advertising to protect their "good name." |
| 17:52.47 | fozzmoo | There's something Oracle run on every break on HLN here. |
| 17:53.39 | fozzmoo | "Oracle/SUN computers helped make Iron Man 2. Long Live Oracle!" |
| 17:54.03 | fozzmoo | Oh here's another one. |
| 17:54.07 | JoshH | emcnabb: people think that just because you don't think we should have ATV's tearing up the grand staircase or huge oil and gas operations in nine mile canyon, that you are a leftist environmentalist wacko |
| 17:54.08 | TodPunk | Everything (and I mean that literally) I have ever seen Oracle touch withers into a hollow shell of what it once was. |
| 17:54.16 | fozzmoo | HARDWARE... SOFTWARE... in theaters soon. |
| 17:55.06 | emcnabb | JoshH++ |
| 17:55.08 | fozzmoo | Looks like all 40 or so people have debarked the plane... Probably just about time for us to board. |
| 17:55.32 | TodPunk | enjoy your flight, fozzmoo |
| 17:55.41 | fozzmoo | ATVs can tear up the Grand Staircase... in an environmentally friendly way, can't they? |
| 17:56.03 | emcnabb | this just in, you can be conservative/Republican/etc and still be an environmentalist |
| 17:56.25 | fozzmoo | I'm all for being smart with the environment. |
| 17:56.36 | JoshH | fozzmoo: honestly, i think trails are fine |
| 17:56.47 | fozzmoo | I remember when I was a kid and there was this big move to stop using paper grocery bags... because we were killing the trees. |
| 17:57.01 | Migs | Oracle should buy the U.S. Congress |
| 17:57.07 | fozzmoo | Apparently, the american public was too stupid to realize that paper... is an amazingly renewable resource... |
| 17:57.19 | fozzmoo | and the manufacturers of paper bags... plant new trees all the time. |
| 17:57.19 | JoshH | fozzmoo: regular trees yes, but not the rainforests |
| 17:57.26 | bonez2046 | just curious if any of you are using Nokia's N900? |
| 17:57.34 | JoshH | farmed trees are fine |
| 17:57.39 | fozzmoo | JoshH: I don't think they were making paper bags out of trees in the rain forest. |
| 17:57.43 | bonez2046 | I am ready, just shopping.. appreciate some input |
| 17:57.46 | JoshH | right, paper bags aren't really the problem |
| 17:58.01 | fozzmoo | Good example of "smart" environmentalism. |
| 17:58.04 | fozzmoo | Anyway... outa here. |
| 17:58.09 | JoshH | that's another example of some stupid idea making it harder to discuss the real issues |
| 17:58.45 | TodPunk | bonez2046: I'm an Android fanboy, so no >.> |
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| 18:02.54 | bonez2046 | TodPunk: well, tell me, or point me to why I should think Android instead of Nokia.. |
| 18:04.56 | TodPunk | bonez2046: I personally think it's a more flexible platform, much more open, a lot more fun than an iPhone but just as practical for work as a Blackberry. If perchance Android doesn't have an App you want, it's relatively easy to write it and get it on the marketplace. |
| 18:06.19 | TodPunk | Plus, given the number of linux geeks on Android as opposed to Nokia, you're going to have a lot more interop apps for stuff you'll do in your linux environment. |
| 18:06.43 | TodPunk | That's just my general opinion, though. You really should make the decision based on what you want to DO with the thing. |
| 18:07.24 | bonez2046 | what I want it to do, is make phone calls, reliably, text, and allow me to surf the web when away from my office.. with a big screen, but fit in my pocket |
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| 18:08.53 | TodPunk | Any number of phones will allow you to do that, so I think that boils down more to opinions about carriers, price, and terms of a contract/plan |
| 18:10.20 | TodPunk | gets some lunch |
| 18:15.17 | bonez2046 | I intend to buy the phone, unlocked, free and clear of any carrier and then pick the carrier after the fact.. |
| 18:15.26 | bonez2046 | whichever one offers the best plan |
| 18:19.12 | goozbach | good luck with that |
| 18:23.16 | keldwud | good luck? I thought the nexus one was available that way |
| 18:23.25 | keldwud | they were selling it direct |
| 18:23.33 | keldwud | and then allowing one to select the carrier afterwards |
| 18:23.37 | keldwud | am I mistaken? |
| 18:23.57 | bonez2046 | it mentions on the Nexus One site that I can get the phone without service, just plug in my sim card and away I go.. |
| 18:24.25 | keldwud | http://www.google.com/phone |
| 18:24.32 | bonez2046 | would that mean I could just stick my current att branded phone's sim card in and it would work, provided I activate it with ATT? |
| 18:24.56 | keldwud | it tells me that AT&T is an option here in utah |
| 18:25.17 | keldwud | "Buy the phone without service and insert your own SIM card. Includes a Nexus One phone case, wall charger, and USB cable. Free shipping in the continental US." |
| 18:25.21 | keldwud | for $529 |
| 18:25.31 | keldwud | is the offer I'm receiving based on my zip code |
| 18:26.01 | keldwud | T-mobile is being offered for $179 for the phone |
| 18:26.31 | keldwud | but AT&T and T-mobile are the only options so far |
| 18:30.27 | keldwud | "The Nexus One device is unlocked and will recognize SIM cards from any mobile service provider using the GSM standard." |
| 18:42.05 | TodPunk | The Nexus One doesn't communicate on the bands Verizon and Sprint use. A Verizon version has been planned, I believe. If you have Verizon, though, just get a droid. I think having a keyboard is better anyway. |
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| 18:45.50 | levi | Or wait for the Droid Incredible, which is like a cross between Nexus One and Droid. |
| 18:46.42 | TodPunk | except its still on Verizon |
| 18:47.33 | keldwud | yeah, they were mentioning that verizon would be available in spring of 2010, but I think it's already spring now. |
| 18:47.56 | levi | Well, I was amending the end of your statement, which was about Verizon and the Droid. |
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| 18:49.38 | sjansen | The phone you buy will limit the carriers you can choose, so if the phone isn't the deciding factor, you should research carriers before choosing your phone. |
| 18:50.45 | bonez2046 | I have been with att a long time and they have great service, customer and tech too but I am shopping now for commodity service at the least price.. |
| 18:51.11 | bonez2046 | jsut want access, to make calls and to have wi-fi access with whichever device to connect home, email and access web wherever |
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| 19:42.44 | TodPunk | Anyone here a Java EE fan? |
| 19:43.07 | sjansen | raises his hand |
| 19:43.37 | sjansen | Oh, wait, you said "fan" not "fanatical hater". |
| 19:43.44 | TodPunk | =c( |
| 19:44.59 | emcnabb | TodPunk, pst... he's a closet Java EE user... |
| 19:45.57 | TodPunk | is debating picking it up to just write a website in it |
| 19:48.09 | sjansen | Thanks to the success of Ruby on Rails, and the constant finger pointing and laughing that J2EE developers have had to endure, J2EE isn't as bad as it used to be. |
| 19:48.24 | sjansen | But it's major league overkill for a simple Web site. |
| 19:48.44 | sjansen | Go ahead an knock yourself out. |
| 19:49.26 | emcnabb | ~fanboy sjansen |
| 19:49.26 | sjansen | (I mean that literally. Be prepared to experience repeated headaches and even blackouts.) |
| 19:50.23 | TodPunk | I figure I know PHP, I know ASP.NET, why not? It can't be that hard. |
| 19:50.38 | TodPunk | Looks to be essentially abstractions of servlets. |
| 19:51.19 | TodPunk | It's either that or give into gundy and dive into django, and I'd rather learn something that scales better than python/ruby |
| 19:52.20 | goozbach | famous last words... "It can't be that hard" |
| 19:52.29 | goozbach | when you get eaten by sharks... |
| 19:52.47 | TodPunk | The only time that has ever bitten me was raising kids |
| 19:52.51 | goozbach | http://xkcd.com/349/ |
| 19:55.24 | sjansen | Servlets aren't the heart of J2EE. EJBs are the heart of J2EE. |
| 19:55.54 | sjansen | Basically, if all you need is Tomcat that's not really J2EE and your still withing the realm of the sane. |
| 19:56.19 | sjansen | (Servlets can actually do some pretty cool things, although they aren't as cutting edge as they used to be.) |
| 19:56.19 | TodPunk | Yeah, but I'm looking at JSP on Glassfish, so not really J2EE as a whole, just the servlet side =cP |
| 19:56.21 | TodPunk | yeah |
| 19:57.05 | sjansen | If you need JBoss then you're into the realm of J2EE, a path that leads to high wages and low sanity scores. |
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| 19:57.23 | TodPunk | And, in my opinion, ridiculously long project times |
| 19:57.47 | TodPunk | "We want a web page that displays some text and a single image" "That will require three months of development and two more of testing" |
| 19:58.47 | TodPunk | Of course, convincing someone I know J2EE on that level with such a payscale would be.... interesting, without a degree in CS. |
| 20:12.46 | goozbach | each minor change could be billed at an exorbiant rate however |
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| 20:18.00 | Gate | JBOSS is horrible, at least as a dev environment |
| 20:18.14 | Gate | a webserver shouldn't take twice as much ram a a full XP VM |
| 20:18.45 | Gate | it shouldn't take 10 seconds to deploy new javascript files |
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| 20:25.44 | TodPunk | Gate, if it serves more web pages to more visitors faster, I'd think that would justify the upkeep costs. |
| 20:26.19 | TodPunk | The deployment time argument is like saying because something takes twice as long to compile it shouldn't be used, even if it performs twice as fast or somesuch. |
| 20:29.29 | Gate | TodPunk: note the "at least as a dev environment" |
| 20:30.16 | Gate | I won't argue merit on a production environment since I have no experience there. But when Tomcat alone does the same work at 1,000 the speed, I pick Tomcat |
| 20:30.27 | Gate | not that I would be working in Java at all, given the choice |
| 20:31.01 | TodPunk | I haven't used either, so I can't really say with any authority on either =cP Your point does stand for dev, though. |
| 20:42.10 | Gate | :) that's because I am a dev. The IT people can take an hour to deploy if it saves a milisecond of response time for all I care. |
| 20:42.28 | Sargun_Screen | OMG, fucking awesome: http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/21/hps-designjet-3d-series-start-shipping-to-wealthy-european-prot/ |
| 20:42.30 | Sargun_Screen | Oops. |
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| 20:46.48 | sjansen | ~language Sargun_Screen |
| 20:46.49 | ibot | ACTION grabs Sargun_Screen by the ear and washes Sargun_Screen's mouth out with soap |
| 20:47.52 | Sargun_Screen | ~lart sjansen |
| 20:47.52 | ibot | does a little 'renice 20 -u sjansen' |
| 20:47.55 | Sargun_Screen | Are there really no unemployed, good sysadmins? |
| 20:48.35 | sjansen | Do you mean in general, or are you hiring for a specific position? |
| 20:48.48 | Sargun_Screen | We're hiring a sysadmin. |
| 20:48.57 | Sargun_Screen | but we can't fiond a good one |
| 20:50.59 | sjansen | Hiring always takes time. Statistically, you're more likely to get unsuitable candidates than perfect candidates because the perfect candidates. |
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| 20:51.48 | sjansen | The difficulty of getting the right message to the right person is why recruiters get away with so much crap. |
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| 20:57.21 | Sargun_Screen | I'm the perfect person, I just need to go to college. |
| 20:57.52 | rsimpkins | Sargun_Screen: How much are you going to pay the perfect sys admin? |
| 20:58.56 | rsimpkins | <sexist> Good sysadmins are like good women. They get married, and stay married. ;-) </sexist> |
| 20:59.00 | Sargun_Screen | rsimpkins: Not perfect sysadmin, we need a good sysadmin. |
| 21:00.31 | rsimpkins | Most of the top SysAdmins I know don't switch jobs that much. In our group, for example, we've had very low turnover. We are loosing one guy next month. The last one to leave was 3 years ago. |
| 21:02.53 | jsmith-teaching | rsimpkins: Wow... three years? Really? |
| 21:04.04 | rsimpkins | jsmith-teaching: That I can recall, yeah. |
| 21:04.11 | rsimpkins | jsmith-teaching: It's been a long while. |
| 21:04.42 | jsmith-teaching | rsimpkins: Cool... |
| 21:06.08 | sjansen | Of course now that they're owned by Adobe, and Adobe is about to be crushed under Apple's heel, they're all buying black turtlenecks just in case. |
| 21:06.52 | jsmith-teaching | sjansen: What, you don't seriously think Apple would buy Adobe, do you? |
| 21:07.00 | rsimpkins | sjansen: I was in a restruant yesterday where 3 patrons were arguing about the adobe/apple issue. I think we are taking the right course of action. Too bad we didn't do it a year ago. |
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| 21:08.05 | rsimpkins | They should open source the flash player. If they did, apple would actually put it on the iphone/ipad (from what I understand). |
| 21:08.22 | rsimpkins | At least, that is what I understand they want. |
| 21:08.26 | sjansen | No. I expect Apple to push out an iPhone app that triggers iZombies to attack Adobe employees. The only protect will be wearing black turtle necks and decorating the door posts of their homes with Apple stickers. |
| 21:08.45 | rsimpkins | sjansen: there is a roumer we are all getting android based phones. ;-) |
| 21:09.01 | rsimpkins | there may be iphone collection bins in a cube near us soon. |
| 21:09.42 | rsimpkins | I personally think of Apple as a very important and wonderful customer. So, I don't hate them. :) |
| 21:10.08 | sjansen | In other news, DNSSEC is depressing. |
| 21:10.17 | jsmith-teaching | sjansen: Amen, brother! |
| 21:10.40 | blendmaster1024 | sjansen: come on, black turtle necks were awesome before jobs came along and ruined them |
| 21:11.36 | Gate | Sargun_Screen: you need one? I know one. |
| 21:11.37 | sjansen | Oh, yes, until Jobs came along everyone was clambering to look like a beatnik. |
| 21:11.40 | goozbach | just like little mustaches before hitler |
| 21:11.57 | Gate | ahem, referring to the SysAdmin position |
| 21:12.09 | sjansen | Black turtlenecks and berets. Nothing more stylish. |
| 21:12.12 | Gate | where, how much, what qualifications and what email do I give him? |
| 21:16.30 | TodPunk | Sargun_Screen: I'm unemployed, and a good sysadmin. |
| 21:16.48 | Gate | TodPunk: I got first dibbs ;) |
| 21:16.55 | TodPunk | You're a dev |
| 21:17.16 | Gate | With several unemployed friends |
| 21:17.23 | TodPunk | =c( |
| 21:17.56 | Migs | why are you unemployed? |
| 21:18.06 | TodPunk | Me? I got laid off. |
| 21:18.14 | Migs | that blows |
| 21:18.19 | Migs | how long ago? |
| 21:19.03 | blendmaster1024 | s/off// |
| 21:19.11 | TodPunk | I kind of expected it. I was the CTO, but I literally worked myself out of a job when I handed all my non-R&D responsibilities away, and then the company decided it wasn't fun anymore, so they were closing doors =cP |
| 21:19.24 | TodPunk | Migs: little over a month |
| 21:19.39 | Migs | wow |
| 21:19.39 | Gate | :( sorry man |
| 21:19.50 | blendmaster1024 | echo "Me? I got laid off." | sed 's/ off//' |
| 21:19.54 | TodPunk | Meh, it happens |
| 21:20.02 | Migs | first thing I do whenever I get a new job, is find a way to make myself indispensible |
| 21:20.16 | blendmaster1024 | Migs: :) |
| 21:20.18 | Migs | Like, develop a utility that improves productivity but only I know how to maintain |
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| 21:20.46 | blendmaster1024 | of course, that also makes yourself useful at the same time |
| 21:20.51 | TodPunk | I prefer to work in a situation where the company and I both know we can get rid of each other and that our continued relationship is built on value instead of necessity |
| 21:21.21 | blendmaster1024 | so they not only don't want to get rid of you because they won't be able to maintain the tool, but also because then you can't make them more good tools |
| 21:21.31 | Gate | I've never been in threat of losing my job. |
| 21:21.58 | Gate | In fact, right now I have the company I quit four months ago begging for me back |
| 21:22.26 | Gate | TodPunk: I like the "everybody wins" approach to employment |
| 21:22.35 | Migs | I hate unions, but one thing they've done is guarantee I can't be fired |
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| 21:22.52 | Gate | Migs: which is one of the biggest problems with unions. |
| 21:22.58 | Gate | are you a state/fed employee? |
| 21:22.59 | TodPunk | Gate++ |
| 21:23.09 | Migs | Right. Useful employees like me stay employed, but so do all the worthless employees. |
| 21:23.29 | Gate | Migs: exactly, it removes performace based terminations |
| 21:24.08 | Gate | Unions are a neccecary evil when workers are being abused, but in most cases that isn't possible anymore |
| 21:24.56 | Migs | Unions outlived their usefulness 50+ years ago |
| 21:26.14 | Gate | Right about when the populace became mobile enough that a company on the other side of the country could be a legitimate employment option. |
| 21:37.01 | Gate | so Sargun_Screen: what company do you work for that is hiring? |
| 21:42.28 | sjansen | Interesting thought. The interstate road system rendered unions obsolete. |
| 21:42.59 | redbeard_work | sjansen: where did that come from? |
| 21:43.18 | sjansen | Gate's comment. |
| 21:44.01 | JoshH | i don't think the concept of unions are inherently bad, but these days the organizations do have a lot of problems, like protecting anyone who pays dues no matter how much they suck |
| 21:45.01 | sjansen | When employer corruption is common, unions are a reasonable response. |
| 21:45.13 | sjansen | When union corruption is common... |
| 21:45.27 | goozbach | shotguns? |
| 21:45.28 | JoshH | yep |
| 21:45.32 | goozbach | *shrug* |
| 21:45.40 | Gate | Unions are not fundamentally evil or wrong. I think PERMANENT unions are. Exploited people should band together, but long term unions are just another corrupt money-pit |
| 21:45.42 | JoshH | potato cannons |
| 21:45.42 | goozbach | oh wait... that's the answer for zombies |
| 21:45.56 | Migs | I like how Wal-Mart approaches unions |
| 21:46.03 | Migs | When its workers start unionizing, they shut down the store |
| 21:46.14 | JoshH | Migs: that's why i wish all their workers would unionize |
| 21:46.23 | Migs | Nonsense. |
| 21:46.27 | Gate | Makes sense to me. The business doesn't want to deal with it, sobeit |
| 21:46.27 | Migs | Wal-Mart has the right idea |
| 21:47.02 | Gate | JoshH: why? is Wal-Mart exploiting people on a massive scale, or is it paying people what they will accept to work there? |
| 21:47.26 | Migs | I think he's saying he wants everyone to unionize so all the Wal-Marts are shut down |
| 21:47.26 | TehLaser | Gate: is there a difference? |
| 21:47.30 | Gate | yes. |
| 21:47.30 | sjansen | Wal-Mart plays hard ball, but in general I respect it. |
| 21:47.31 | redbeard_work | mcdonalds does the same thing |
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| 21:48.09 | Gate | If I don't think they are offering me enough I wait for another position that does pay enough. |
| 21:49.01 | sjansen | In the long run, Wal-Marts push to lower overhead brings higher quality products within reach of a larger percentage of the population. Working as a Wal-Mart greeter may not be a good long term career option, but what do you expect for unskilled labor? |
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| 21:49.14 | Gate | Exploitation is taking advantage of people who have no other choice. There are usually many minimum wage jobs in the mix. |
| 21:49.43 | Migs | if an employee doesn't like their minimum wage job, they should find a higher-paying job |
| 21:49.53 | sjansen | And in the country there are many options to improve your skill set while temporarily performing unskilled labor. |
| 21:49.59 | Migs | right |
| 21:50.08 | JoshH | right, some jobs should be minimum wage, others should not |
| 21:50.11 | Migs | most minimum wage workers are content to just go home and not try to improve their skills |
| 21:50.14 | JoshH | unions aren't actually necessary these days |
| 21:50.19 | Migs | nope, they're not |
| 21:50.37 | sjansen | Well, I wouldn't make a blanket statement like that. |
| 21:50.43 | markl_ | politics, cool |
| 21:50.57 | markl_ | hopefully you all saw the show that led to this quote: Fox News is the lupus of news. |
| 21:51.01 | markl_ | total classic |
| 21:51.01 | sjansen | Few US markets still need unions to protect workers. |
| 21:51.09 | Gate | I once had a roommate who went communist because he couldn't find a six figure job that would accept him with no college degree and only marketable skill being an old out-dated CAD system |
| 21:51.21 | markl_ | phrased a little bit over-the-top, i'll admit |
| 21:51.21 | sjansen | Perhaps US agricultural workers could benefit from unionization. |
| 21:51.24 | Gate | It was all "the rich's" fault |
| 21:51.37 | sjansen | Certainly many Chinese workers could benefit from unions. |
| 21:52.24 | Gate | sjansen: they could. because there are a large number of them who *are* being exploited. |
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| 22:13.58 | TehLaser | One of the problems with bootstrapping from minimum wage through education is the disproportionately high fees people on such incomes tend to run into. |
| 22:17.59 | blendmaster1024 | environmentalist |
| 22:18.07 | blendmaster1024 | just remove the environ and they're just mentalists |
| 22:18.27 | blendmaster1024 | s/^just// |
| 22:34.30 | sjansen | TehLaser: True, but things are much better in the US than many parts of the world. |
| 22:35.01 | sjansen | Just about the only place where you might find a better system is northern Europe, and they generally have fewer problems to deal with than we do. |
| 22:35.06 | sjansen | s/problems/challenges/ |
| 22:35.21 | JoshH | they have free college there |
| 22:35.22 | tensai | blendmaster1024: s/env//; s/me/ /; s/ntalist/stalin/; == iron stalin. woah. |
| 22:35.25 | JoshH | those communists |
| 22:37.05 | sjansen | While a culture of social mobility is a big part of our advantage, so is high quality universal education and a university system receiving significant government funding. |
| 22:37.45 | sjansen | There's a lot of room for improvement in our education system, but it's still a major achievement. |
| 22:38.08 | sjansen | s/a lot/alot/ |
| 22:38.52 | Gate | Our education system's biggest flaw: federal envolvement |
| 22:39.15 | sjansen | Bah, that's a cop out. |
| 22:39.39 | unum | ya |
| 22:39.49 | sjansen | For every local school district that could do a better job without federal involvement, there's probably three that need a federal kick in the pants. |
| 22:40.03 | unum | I'm afraid that's true |
| 22:40.14 | unum | which is why I have such mixed feelings about federal involvement |
| 22:40.45 | sjansen | Sure, the states should actually be doing the butt kicking, but at least half the states need their butts kicked too. |
| 22:41.16 | Gate | sjansen: that is for their citizens to do, not the feds |
| 22:41.37 | Gate | There is a reason I am a strong advocate of homeschooling and private schools |
| 22:41.41 | sjansen | Oh, right, because we're a confeneracy not a federacy. I keep forgetting that detail. |
| 22:42.11 | sjansen | Must have been my poor education as a result of federal involvement. I keep forgetting the South won. |
| 22:42.52 | Gate | sjansen: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." |
| 22:43.12 | sjansen | So? |
| 22:43.22 | Gate | just because our government has been overstepping its bounds for as long as it has existed, doesn't mean we shouldn't try to stop it |
| 22:43.50 | sjansen | The states are free to use that part of the constitution to tell the feds to stick it where the sun don't shine. |
| 22:44.17 | JoshH | Gate: are you libertarian? |
| 22:44.23 | sjansen | The constitution _does_ give the fed the power of taxation. If states want a part of the money, they gotta play by the rules. All nice and legal. |
| 22:44.25 | Gate | do that and they get the other unconstitutional funding cut off |
| 22:44.35 | Gate | JoshH: generally, yes |
| 22:45.04 | sjansen | Remember, the beloved constitution is a result of not giving the national government enough power. If the articles of confederation had worked, we'd still be living under them. |
| 22:45.56 | JoshH | regardless of what the constitution says, i just can't wrap my head around the concept of being a successful country that doesn't educate every citizen in an organized, structured way |
| 22:46.01 | Gate | sjansen: so we should just let them take as much power as they want, so we don't fail, is that your argument? |
| 22:46.10 | JoshH | homeschooling is great as an option for people smart enough and with enough time, but it can't work for everyone |
| 22:46.44 | sjansen | Gate: You act like we no longer live under the rule of law. There's plenty of options for the states to push back against federal power. |
| 22:47.11 | sjansen | The constant tension is part of the design. |
| 22:47.12 | Gate | sjansen: and they are finally starting to use them due to the violations of the second and tenth amendments |
| 22:48.19 | Gate | JoshH: I believe wholeheartedly in the neccecity of an educated populace. But I doubt the neccecity, intention and quality of education provided by the feds. |
| 22:48.37 | TodPunk | "the feds" |
| 22:48.39 | sjansen | Plain and simple, Libertarianism doesn't work unless you live in a tribe of a few thousand. |
| 22:49.01 | sjansen | It isn't provided by the feds. It's still provided by local government. |
| 22:49.13 | Gate | sjansen: actually, it would work perfectly if anyone tried it |
| 22:49.23 | sjansen | But the federal government has been responding to local failure by increasing its involvement. |
| 22:49.36 | Gate | sjansen: he who pays the piper chooses the tune. |
| 22:49.46 | sjansen | Gate: CITATION NEEDED |
| 22:50.28 | sjansen | There's plenty of historical precedent for too loose a confederation being a failure. Very little precedent for it being successful. |
| 22:50.46 | sjansen | s/too loose a/a very loose/ |
| 22:50.51 | Gate | sjansen: I think you mistake libertarianism for anarchism |
| 22:51.14 | sjansen | Gate: And I think you're and idiot too. There, we're done. |
| 22:51.22 | Gate | Also, I stated that I am generally a libertarian due to two points of contention |
| 22:52.23 | TodPunk | Gate: I think you mistake libertarianism in many of its forms for not being anarchism |
| 22:52.27 | sjansen | If you think I'm too stupid to know the difference between libertarianism and anarchism, why even waste any time talking to me? |
| 22:52.57 | Gate | sjansen: I apologize if you took the statement to be inflamatory. This conversation is over. |
| 22:53.03 | TodPunk | (libertarianism is too ambiguous to use in a finite context like this conversation) |
| 22:55.12 | rsimpkins | sjansen: So, the issue is that Gate feels that our education system sucks because the feds are involved? |
| 22:55.27 | sjansen | apparently |
| 22:55.27 | *** join/#utah orsonj (~orson@b22222.bookstore.usu.edu) |
| 22:55.28 | rsimpkins | And you feel it does not suck? |
| 22:55.45 | rsimpkins | Or rather, that federal involvment is not the main reason it sucks? |
| 22:56.04 | Gate | rsimpkins: I was contending that quality is generally degraded by federal involvement. |
| 22:56.21 | sjansen | I don't admit that it sucks. Not universally. There's plenty of room for improvement, but considering the challenges we face it's surprisingly effective. |
| 22:56.57 | rsimpkins | I'm glad we have choices, where I can choose to participate or not. At least in this state any way. |
| 22:57.50 | rsimpkins | Gate: yeah, people putting their noses in things they don't understand is a common way to ensure things get screwed up. |
| 22:57.58 | sjansen | I have sufficient personal resources that I hope to be able to home school. But I have no problem helping to fund our public educational system. As a city, state and nation we all benefit because of its existence. |
| 22:58.18 | rsimpkins | That's why I think we need to have a test you must pass before you can be allowed to vote. |
| 22:58.29 | sjansen | Perhaps a literacy test? |
| 22:58.38 | TodPunk | "Can you read this?" |
| 22:58.40 | rsimpkins | A written test, yes. |
| 22:58.42 | sjansen | That way we can keep all the black people from actually voting? |
| 22:58.52 | *** join/#utah jalbretsen (~jalbretse@c-76-27-51-43.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 22:58.52 | sjansen | Oh, wait... I'm 100 years behind the curve. |
| 22:58.55 | TodPunk | "Absolutely [] Negatory[]" |
| 22:59.15 | sjansen | Perhaps an English test, that way we can keep all the brown people from voting. |
| 22:59.28 | rsimpkins | A written test that tests your understanding of the law, government, and the political standing of random candidates. |
| 22:59.31 | TodPunk | is brown =c( |
| 23:00.00 | beelzebob | My vote is for a test that involves putting tokens in a machine for treats |
| 23:00.04 | sjansen | The problem with requiring some form of test is that history has already shown that it quickly gets abused. |
| 23:00.27 | sjansen | As it is, so few people bother voting that you have to wonder what the point of a test would be. |
| 23:00.34 | rsimpkins | We should have an amendment made to the constitution that says something like "You cannot be an uninformed moron and expect the right to vote." |
| 23:00.35 | TodPunk | isn't really brown. He's too scottish and german for that. >.> |
| 23:00.52 | beelzebob | we need less people voting? |
| 23:01.08 | beelzebob | or just less informed people voting? |
| 23:01.09 | sjansen | Seems simply caring enough to show up is a pretty good test already. |
| 23:01.29 | beelzebob | s/informed/uninformed/ |
| 23:02.02 | beelzebob | rsimpkins: you could also go the other way and see if you could inform people |
| 23:02.02 | sjansen | Although I am curious what would happen if we went with something like the Brazilian model where ever citizen is legally required to vote. |
| 23:02.18 | goozbach | required, huh? |
| 23:02.20 | TodPunk | what happens if they don't? |
| 23:02.29 | beelzebob | roving gun squads |
| 23:02.34 | rsimpkins | beelzebob: That takes money, which takes ratings, which takes sensationalism, which un-informs people. |
| 23:02.39 | sjansen | Fines, at the least. Maybe imprisonment. I don't remember. |
| 23:03.10 | sjansen | Brazil is pretty serious about its voting. They've even had voter verified electronic voting for awhile. |
| 23:03.24 | TodPunk | Personally, I don't get a whole lot of exposure to politics because I think in general the details don't end up mattering too much. |
| 23:03.46 | sjansen | rsimpkins: With an attitude like that, why not just move into the mountains and shoot at anything that comes too close to your land. |
| 23:03.49 | sjansen | ? |
| 23:03.57 | rsimpkins | sjansen: Apathy. |
| 23:04.08 | rsimpkins | Apathy is my biggest issue. |
| 23:04.15 | rsimpkins | I admit it. |
| 23:04.17 | sjansen | Yes, there's a lot of polarization and sensationalism right now, but that doesn't make it inescapable. |
| 23:04.17 | TodPunk | now loves rsimpkins |
| 23:04.41 | rsimpkins | sjansen: Yeah, I don't really care. |
| 23:05.02 | TodPunk | rsimpkins: picked a topic for the meeting? |
| 23:05.27 | rsimpkins | TodPunk: sjansen is going to speak about RHEL 6 should he happen to be in town. Right sjansen? ;-) |
| 23:06.32 | beelzebob | http://www.thedelphicfuture.org/2009/10/open-source-modern-day-marxist-utopia.html ? |
| 23:06.35 | sjansen | Looks like I'll probably be in town. |
| 23:06.43 | rsimpkins | Awesome. |
| 23:06.47 | sjansen | I can talk about RHEL6 if no one comes up with a better suggestion. |
| 23:06.50 | rsimpkins | Do you wanna come spread the RHEL 6 love? |
| 23:07.02 | rsimpkins | Cause I'm selfish like that, and I wanna learn. |
| 23:07.44 | TodPunk | I need to buy an office chair |
| 23:08.01 | sjansen | Wow, looks like Daniel Fussell has cloned himself and is trying to take control of the UUG list. |
| 23:09.50 | TodPunk | beelzebob: I love how that article throws "ultra" all over the place. |
| 23:10.37 | tensai | sjansen: I thought you signed off the uug list in glorious fashion |
| 23:11.01 | TodPunk | GUYS! Guys, guys, guys1 |
| 23:11.03 | TodPunk | Guys |
| 23:11.05 | rsimpkins | I think we should sell all our schools to corporations. We can use the funds to pay for a new war in asia. And I can haggle with the principals from the School of Pepsi and the School of Coke over who should get paid to babysit my kids. |
| 23:11.11 | sjansen | You talking about when Halcrow left? I couldn't stay away. |
| 23:11.21 | TodPunk | We should build a time machine |
| 23:11.29 | rsimpkins | TodPunk: In a hot tub? |
| 23:11.37 | TodPunk | hmmmm |
| 23:11.54 | TodPunk | I'm not opposed to it, but it seems rather derivative |
| 23:12.58 | TodPunk | You know, I don't MIND Firefox taking up a gig of ram. I really don't. I just want to know what it's DOING with all of it that's so important. |
| 23:13.20 | rsimpkins | TodPunk: Probably foxy things. |
| 23:13.45 | sjansen | cached data |
| 23:13.53 | TodPunk | cyberstalks rsimpkins for fun and profit |
| 23:13.54 | sjansen | javascript leaks |
| 23:14.31 | TodPunk | huh, rsimpkins you look like you're a 12 year old girl |
| 23:14.55 | rsimpkins | TodPunk: I am! |
| 23:15.32 | TodPunk | I admired your work in The Wonder Pets |
| 23:16.47 | TodPunk | So, you're the big man behind all this joy, and the reason the meetings are held at Omniture I take it. |
| 23:18.07 | sjansen | TodPunk: That must be a really old picture. He looks more like a younger version of Vigo from Ghostbuster II. |
| 23:19.07 | rsimpkins | I'm just as evil too. |
| 23:19.36 | TodPunk | Who's your creepy artist assistant that is trying to steal a baby for you? |
| 23:20.00 | rsimpkins | sjansen. yeah. He almost had one last week too. |
| 23:20.36 | rsimpkins | He was in the middle of the sacrifice, when some dudes with unlicensed proton accelerators busted in.... |
| 23:20.40 | rsimpkins | what a mess. |
| 23:20.46 | sjansen | So that's why I've been waking up in strange places lately. |
| 23:21.16 | TodPunk | I think that just goes with the job, sjansen |
| 23:21.23 | rsimpkins | Nothing fights evil more than accelerated protons. |
| 23:21.26 | sjansen | Though, calling me an artist is being generous. |
| 23:21.50 | TodPunk | Oh, we've all seen what you can do with words, sjansen |
| 23:21.52 | TodPunk | so yeah, it is |
| 23:21.57 | rsimpkins | I wonder how many obama birthers work for CERN. |
| 23:22.25 | TodPunk | adds rsimpkins to the growing list of people that work there |
| 23:23.29 | markl_ | rsimpkins: the answer had better be 0 |
| 23:23.51 | markl_ | because one mistake by a person with a low IQ means a black whole that eats the solar system. |
| 23:23.58 | rsimpkins | hehe |
| 23:24.05 | TodPunk | s/whole/hole/ |
| 23:24.11 | markl_ | heh yep |
| 23:24.31 | markl_ | gotta make spelling mistakes when condescending |
| 23:24.44 | markl_ | or people think you are being serious |
| 23:25.31 | rsimpkins | I'm an armchair physics fan. |
| 23:25.45 | rsimpkins | I wish I understood more about how it all worked. |
| 23:26.07 | rsimpkins | However, math and I do not get along very well. |
| 23:26.48 | TodPunk | I think math and I, and probably you, would get along much better if math was USEFUL in the real world for much more than physics and 3D graphics. |
| 23:26.59 | rsimpkins | ~lart math |
| 23:26.59 | ibot | nukes math with a single large nuke |
| 23:27.13 | sjansen | When I was younger, I got beaten up by a sin function. |
| 23:27.14 | rsimpkins | dang, we needed math to make the nuke. |
| 23:27.40 | sjansen | Math _is_ useful. |
| 23:28.07 | TodPunk | only up to a point |
| 23:28.09 | rsimpkins | I blame my middle school math teacher. She sounded like bart simpson, and I couldn't stop laughing all year. |
| 23:28.18 | rsimpkins | I never recovered. |
| 23:28.27 | sjansen | But we focus on calculus when statistics and basic financial math would be helpful to more people. |
| 23:28.31 | TodPunk | After you get into Calculus it's like, "Ok, this gets pretty cool, but not very useful" |
| 23:29.04 | TodPunk | financial math isn't so much about the math as it is about the functions/operations you're putting the numbers through and why. |
| 23:29.05 | sjansen | Perhaps fractals too. |
| 23:29.17 | rsimpkins | I think geometry would be useful, should I ever need to storm a castle. |
| 23:29.54 | sjansen | Right, but once a student sitting in class realizes "you mean math can help me figure out how to retire by 35?!" it might look a little more relevant. |
| 23:30.25 | TodPunk | that's seriously about two days of teaching someone with algebra skills |
| 23:31.30 | sjansen | Which is why accountant spend four years learning it. |
| 23:31.54 | sjansen | But seriously, a stronger effort to relate math to real world information could do a lot of good. |
| 23:32.18 | sjansen | For example, helping students to see the fractal characteristics of nature. |
| 23:32.45 | sjansen | Maybe even basic chaos theory. |
| 23:33.21 | TodPunk | mmmmmmmm, chaos |
| 23:33.44 | rsimpkins | If we actually taught kids useful things, they might like school. I don't see how that would be good. |
| 23:34.39 | rsimpkins | Afterall, we want to be sure they learn what to think, not how to think. |
| 23:34.57 | TodPunk | that's been my motto with my kids |
| 23:35.07 | TodPunk | there's more of them than us, so we have to keep them in line |
| 23:35.13 | TodPunk | they're always growing in strength |
| 23:35.39 | rsimpkins | TodPunk: How many brands can your kids name? How many presidents? |
| 23:36.01 | TodPunk | brands as in, marketing brands? |
| 23:36.05 | rsimpkins | Yes. |
| 23:36.10 | TodPunk | Probably not a lot |
| 23:36.16 | TodPunk | we don't have Cable |
| 23:36.48 | TodPunk | as for brands... |
| 23:37.07 | rsimpkins | My kids picked up really young on which signs mean which things. The blue sign with the star - that's where we get food. The yellow arches, you can get a toy there. |
| 23:37.10 | sjansen | To be fair, there's a much larger number of brands. |
| 23:37.20 | TodPunk | But seriously, probably not a lot of either yet. The oldest is in second grade, so History isn't really a subject yet. |
| 23:37.42 | sjansen | Perhaps a better question would be "percentage of brands versus percentage of presidents". |
| 23:37.44 | rsimpkins | TodPunk: Wha? History isn't a subject in 2nd grade? Dang - i'm doing it all wrong. |
| 23:38.12 | TodPunk | rsimpkins: not much of one, no. It's geography, some basic highlights of historical import, but you really need to get your vocab and reading down before you can dive in |
| 23:39.05 | rsimpkins | Ahh, so they are getting some history then. |
| 23:39.22 | sjansen | You can be certain my child's first word will be "mama" and his first sentence will be "George Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfield betrayed America". |
| 23:39.34 | TodPunk | in fourteen hundred and ninety two, columbus sailed the ocean blue |
| 23:39.53 | rsimpkins | sjansen: hehe. One of the first things we taught our kids was "I want a lawyer." |
| 23:40.02 | sjansen | in fourteen hundred and ninety three, columbus sailed the deep blue see |
| 23:40.14 | sjansen | in fourteen hundred and ninety one, columbus sailed to prove it could be done |
| 23:41.12 | Gate | sjansen: just remember to add Obama, Biden, Reid and Pelosi to that list. |
| 23:43.13 | sjansen | Whatever. As soon as they use doctored intelligence drag us into an optional war then spend years insisting that cheap truck without any armor and high tech toys are enough to win, I'll add them to the list. |
| 23:43.53 | Gate | name one major policy point of the Bush administration that Obama hasn't doubled down on? |
| 23:44.10 | Gate | Bush was a bad president. Obama is many times worse. |
| 23:44.27 | sjansen | Admit it, you're trying to distract me by mentionig KFC's double down sandwich. |
| 23:44.45 | Gate | hmmmmmmmm. Chicken instead of bread....... |
| 23:45.02 | Gate | Wait, I think I can feel one of my remaining arteries harden. |
| 23:45.05 | JoshH | i wouldn't say he's doubled down, but he has continued too many |
| 23:45.10 | sjansen | For starters, he reversed the Bush position on the Freedom of Information Act. |
| 23:45.13 | JoshH | it's not like he can just vamoose from iraq though |
| 23:45.34 | Gate | double the bailouts, double the troops, double the abandonment of personal liberty, double the fun! |
| 23:45.57 | JoshH | i don't get the personal liberty argument |
| 23:46.05 | sjansen | Dude, the bail outs were already a foregone conclusion before he took office. |
| 23:46.10 | Gate | JoshH: agreed, we're there, finish the job. |
| 23:46.25 | sjansen | He's been reducing our troops numbers, but trying to do so in a responsible manner. |
| 23:46.27 | JoshH | and afghanistan wasn't exactly "doubling the troops" |
| 23:46.32 | Gate | sjansen: he could have at least tried to stop them instead of cheering them through |
| 23:46.39 | rsimpkins | Everyone says 'finish the job' - no one has ever told me which job we are supposed to be finishing. |
| 23:46.49 | Gate | JoshH: that point was taking licence for sarcastic point |
| 23:47.08 | rsimpkins | The only thing I've seen, is that we said there was work to do. We got there, and it turned out there was no work to do. Now we are supposed to finish it. |
| 23:47.09 | JoshH | Gate: he went along with them because almost every economist highly recommended it. |
| 23:47.18 | Gate | JoshH: so. |
| 23:47.34 | sjansen | rsimpkins: Simple. Leave the country more like Japan after WWII than Germany after WWI. |
| 23:47.55 | JoshH | if you're the president and everyone says "do this or the economy will be incredibly wrecked in the short term and who knows how much longer", you aren't going to say "well i don't care, that's against the constitution" or whatever |
| 23:48.17 | sjansen | We turned up the chaos, so we'd better make sure we at least don't leave behind a time bomb waiting to blow up even bigger the next time. |
| 23:48.25 | *** part/#utah ksaisjja (~ksaisjja@fw.oremut02.us.wh.verio.net) |
| 23:48.25 | rsimpkins | Something about sticking your nose in to things you don't understand... blah blah blah. |
| 23:48.27 | Gate | JoshH: or he could have actually done his homework and seen the consequences his actions would have. Or he wanted those consequences. |
| 23:49.13 | JoshH | i don't think the bailouts themselves were the problem. they way they were handled, with ceo's deciding the rules, and all that stuff that made everyone hate bankers and execs was the problem |
| 23:49.16 | sjansen | JoshH: Gate doesn't recognize the intelligence of anyone whose opinion differs from his. Therefor all the economist were obviously incompetent or conniving. |
| 23:49.32 | JoshH | and that is partly obama's fault, even perhaps mostly |
| 23:49.42 | JoshH | but the teaparty anger about the bailouts is misplaced |
| 23:50.00 | JoshH | it is hilarious that they will be bennett's albatross though |
| 23:50.18 | rsimpkins | I've got the perfect plan for the border issue. I say we draw a line on the sand in texas, and then shoot anyone who crosses it. |
| 23:50.49 | sjansen | An who'll pay for that? |
| 23:50.56 | JoshH | patrios will volunteer |
| 23:50.59 | TodPunk | sjansen: texas |
| 23:51.00 | JoshH | t |
| 23:51.09 | TodPunk | specifically people with guns |
| 23:51.13 | rsimpkins | sjansen: We open it up to the public, target practice for $50/day. |
| 23:51.16 | JoshH | the minutemen |
| 23:51.34 | sjansen | You do realize that what you're suggesting is incredibly offensive? |
| 23:51.45 | Gate | sjansen: I recognize many people's intelligence. Like historians and the economists that the president doesn't seem to believe exist. |
| 23:51.50 | rsimpkins | sjansen: Only if you're the guy on the other end of the gun. |
| 23:51.59 | sjansen | Did you know anyone from Central or South America? As it happens, they're human beings too. |
| 23:52.07 | JoshH | i want tent cities in the west desert for illegals, that's why i voted for chaffetz |
| 23:52.21 | rsimpkins | sjansen: nah, the second they cross the line they become non-native species, which are legal to shoot in texas. |
| 23:52.24 | Gate | JoshH: my biggest problems with Obama are over personal liberty, even my displeasure over the bailouts is about 50% that. |
| 23:52.26 | rsimpkins | Don't you follow the news? |
| 23:52.26 | JoshH | is amazed that some people really can honestly say that |
| 23:53.15 | JoshH | Gate: i actually feel more free now, that's strange :) |
| 23:53.35 | sjansen | We need to figure out our immigration issues. But after seeing first hand what real poverty means, it's hard for me to get mad at anyone trying to escape it. |
| 23:53.48 | JoshH | even though i know i'm not, since he hasn't really made any civil liberties progress |
| 23:53.53 | rsimpkins | sjansen: yeah, so why not put them out of their misery? ;-) |
| 23:53.54 | Gate | JoshH: the healthcare bill, their failed attempts to start a popular anti-gun movement, their support of the PATRIOT act and similar legislation |
| 23:54.12 | JoshH | sjansen: i think we need a simple, cheap, fast system in place to become legal to process all the people who want to come here and work |
| 23:54.14 | rsimpkins | We could store all our nuclear waste along the border, in broken drums across the surface. |
| 23:54.37 | Gate | I don't think there has been a president in my lifetime genuinely concerned with protecting American freedoms. |
| 23:54.40 | TodPunk | hehe, get mutant crime-fighting teams for immigrants |
| 23:54.57 | JoshH | Gate: i didn't notice any large scale anti-gun movement popping up |
| 23:55.00 | Gate | well, maybe one |
| 23:55.03 | rsimpkins | Gate: yeah, we can shoot anyone who doesn't agree with us. |
| 23:55.03 | JoshH | but agreed on patriot |
| 23:55.17 | sjansen | It's not the same as knowing someone personally, but I challenge anyone who can be flippant about illegal immigration to watch the following: http://www.hulu.com/watch/56908/30-days-immigration#s-p3-so-i0 |
| 23:55.23 | Gate | JoshH: thats because even the Democratic congress told Holder he was nucking futz |
| 23:55.41 | JoshH | regarding healthcare, i feel slightly more free now, and slightly less worried about potentially being screwed by blue cross at some point in my life |
| 23:55.54 | rsimpkins | The only down-side to this plan that I see, is that I have family members that live in Mexico... so - I'd wanna make sure they didn't get shot. |
| 23:55.57 | JoshH | plus, it will save money |
| 23:56.15 | Gate | JoshH: I am being taxed to pay for something I could choose and having a gun put to my head by the IRS telling me to buy a service. How is that free? |
| 23:56.38 | rsimpkins | Gate: Are they holding the gun sideways? |
| 23:56.48 | JoshH | Gate: it's not much different than any other kind of tax credit |
| 23:56.49 | rsimpkins | Cause if they are - they are about ready to pull the trigger. |
| 23:56.53 | Gate | rsimpkins: yep, they are the IRS street gang ;) |
| 23:56.53 | JoshH | if you don't like any tax credits, that's another matter |
| 23:57.00 | TodPunk | rsimpkins: sacrafices must be made! |
| 23:57.05 | rsimpkins | No doubt. |
| 23:57.29 | Gate | JoshH: I don't, actually. I want completely fair taxes, everyone pays the exact same percentage of their income. |
| 23:57.29 | rsimpkins | hands guns out to everyone. |
| 23:57.44 | rsimpkins | Okay, on the count of three, everyone shoot someone when they say something you don't agree with. |
| 23:57.53 | sjansen | As far as I'm concerned, universal health care and universal education are good for the same reasons. |
| 23:58.11 | TodPunk | Gate: they're just looking for some cred. Momma didn't pay no 'tention to sho'ty |
| 23:58.19 | JoshH | Gate: i think that would be fine if it was a nice low amount, but the fact that our taxes are kinda messed up doesn't make me want to take up arms or rally with the teabaggers or anything |
| 23:58.39 | sjansen | Our nation's ability to embrace risk without letting it destroy us is part of what makes us an economic powerhouse. |
| 23:59.03 | sjansen | Universal health care is part of that pattern. As is bankruptcy law. |
| 23:59.14 | Gate | JoshH: oh ffs. The Tea Party (of which I am a part) is trending toward low, fair taxes. |
| 23:59.41 | JoshH | obama already lowered my taxes, though not by much |
| 23:59.43 | sjansen | In the US, an entrepreneur whose business fails is considered experienced. In many other countries they're considered lepers. |
| 23:59.50 | Gate | JoshH: but why am *I* paying taxes when 47% of the population didn't? (statistic from memory) |
