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| 00:17.07 | markl_ | ok check out jesus' six pack abs: http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e20133ecb6b1b0970b-550wi |
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| 00:28.14 | fungus | those aren't abs, that's a huge penis. |
| 00:31.22 | reugen | 0.o lol |
| 00:31.57 | TodPunk | I'm going to have to go with fungus on this one. |
| 00:35.26 | markl_ | i would expect that the penis wasn't intentional, but no doubt that's what it looks like |
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| 04:03.24 | eightyeight | well, just switched from opendns to google dns |
| 04:05.04 | TodPunk | Why do you use either, mayhap? |
| 04:05.38 | eightyeight | i used opendns for speed. comcast dns, at the time, just sucked |
| 04:05.56 | eightyeight | but i never really used the features they offer, like parental control, dashboard, etc |
| 04:06.07 | eightyeight | and i was getting tired of the dns redirects |
| 04:06.22 | eightyeight | plus, 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4 is just too easy to remember |
| 04:06.24 | eightyeight | so, google dns it is |
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| 04:30.45 | TodPunk | I used to use opendns for the parental control as a test. Each of my oldest three kids has their own computer, so it seemed like a good time to try it. |
| 04:31.29 | TodPunk | It ended up blocking about a billion sites that were benign and I got away from it asap. Now I just use 4.2.2.2 and 4.2.2.1 and cache locally on our dns server. |
| 04:31.34 | TodPunk | is lazy |
| 04:33.29 | eightyeight | i cache as well |
| 04:33.42 | eightyeight | mostly for the speed improvement |
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| 16:15.46 | *** topic/#utah is logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/#utah | coming to Sprint phones in 2010: harleypig in a bikini! |
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| 19:58.29 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: I have a question about your post. |
| 19:58.40 | fozzmoo | rsimpkins: okay. |
| 19:58.49 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: Is the Internet private, or public? |
| 19:59.31 | fozzmoo | I'd say it's largely private. |
| 19:59.46 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: I think that is the crux of the argument among the two sides. |
| 20:00.16 | Migs | where do you draw the line between public and private? |
| 20:00.41 | fozzmoo | Well, when I go to herrimancity.org, I'm accessing a "public" portion of the Internet. |
| 20:00.51 | fozzmoo | When I go to google.com, I'm accessing a "private" portion of the Internet. |
| 20:01.07 | unum | but the dns system is government ran |
| 20:01.15 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: Is the phone system public, or private? |
| 20:01.39 | fozzmoo | Largely private. |
| 20:02.38 | fozzmoo | I hope I've answered your question. Gotta run. |
| 20:02.44 | Migs | and what do you mean by "largely?" |
| 20:02.50 | Migs | are you counting in terms of web pages, bandwidth, etc.? |
| 20:03.48 | rsimpkins | IMHO the nuetrality debate is a public vs. private debate. |
| 20:05.18 | rsimpkins | I believe the FCC feels it is public (or wants it to be). |
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| 20:06.47 | rsimpkins | If the exchanges and common peer-points are considered public, I've got to ask, how much of that is funded by tax payers? |
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| 20:07.41 | rsimpkins | The LDS church built a big park on top of a city street. Guess what, it is private. It was their money that purchased it, and they built it. |
| 20:08.51 | rsimpkins | So, my point, if the Internet is public, where is the public funding? If it is private, where is the private funding? |
| 20:09.11 | rsimpkins | Al Gore really messed this one up. |
| 20:09.36 | TehLaser | The root name servers are public. Google's are private. |
| 20:09.50 | unum | government still has regulation private property |
| 20:09.54 | TehLaser | oversipmlifies for fun and profit. |
| 20:10.15 | unum | just because I own a gun and am on private property doesn't mean I can shoot people with it |
| 20:10.30 | rsimpkins | Al Gore intended for the Internet to be public, but he messed up his legislation that would have specifically made it so. |
| 20:10.44 | rsimpkins | I'm guessing some lobbyist got to him. |
| 20:11.27 | TehLaser | The "internet" isn't really a single thing, is the problem with trying to label it. |
| 20:11.37 | TehLaser | It's a collection of networks. Some are private, others not. |
| 20:11.55 | rsimpkins | TehLaser: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Performance_Computing_and_Communication_Act_of_1991 |
| 20:12.22 | rsimpkins | It is this point that I wish fozz would have spent some time talking about. |
| 20:12.30 | rsimpkins | Or someoen on the list, for that matter. |
| 20:13.55 | TehLaser | It's not unlike other privatized utilities. |
| 20:14.01 | rsimpkins | So, here is the kicker, that act publicly funded huge portions of the network. |
| 20:14.16 | rsimpkins | And directed public agencies to participate. |
| 20:14.19 | TehLaser | arpanet was definately public |
| 20:14.46 | TehLaser | But nowadays, most of the "internet" as such is owned by private (ish) telcos. |
| 20:15.03 | rsimpkins | What we have here is a government invention, and the government decided they'd open it up to private entities. |
| 20:15.34 | rsimpkins | So, is the Internet, which was created by public funding, now no longer publicly owned? |
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| 20:15.46 | rsimpkins | Sounds like the consensus is yes. |
| 20:16.09 | TehLaser | The difference is much of what makes the internet the internet is the protocols. |
| 20:17.15 | TehLaser | The government still owns the original hardware, (well, except it became obsolete and isn't really used anymore) |
| 20:17.21 | TehLaser | s/it/what/ |
| 20:17.55 | rsimpkins | So, like I was saying, the Internet used to be public. We decided to make it private, Al Gore decided to make it private. |
| 20:17.55 | TehLaser | But the protocols were released into the public domain, upon which private ownership interests essentially "rebuilt" the internet in pieces. |
| 20:18.05 | rsimpkins | He told the agencies involved to help make it private. |
| 20:18.08 | rsimpkins | And, here we are. |
| 20:18.54 | TehLaser | I suspect that the publicly-owned internet wouldn't be nearly as interesting as what actually resulted. |
| 20:18.56 | rsimpkins | I love the people who passed this bill: Sen Kennedy, Edward M., Sen Kerry, John F., Sen Reid, Harry |
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| 20:19.25 | rsimpkins | So, we can blame these very liberal people for removing from public control the modern day Internet. |
| 20:19.58 | TehLaser | When the government funds, say, medical research, the expectation is that the results will be publicly available, but privately implemented. |
| 20:20.19 | TehLaser | I don't see why it should be different for communications research. |
| 20:21.07 | rsimpkins | Because this wasn't just research. The intention was clear - build a public computer communications network. |
| 20:21.22 | rsimpkins | What happened was private industry built it, and said "goverment, get out, this is private" |
| 20:22.07 | TehLaser | Yeah, but the communications network itself was still public. |
| 20:22.26 | TehLaser | It was just designed to be interoperable. |
| 20:22.27 | rsimpkins | Not any more, apparently. |
| 20:22.46 | TehLaser | the private internet outcompeted the public one. |
| 20:22.53 | rsimpkins | Yup. |
| 20:23.01 | rsimpkins | Thanks to exactly what Al Gore passed. |
| 20:23.09 | rsimpkins | I mean, we can blame these guys for where we are. |
| 20:23.34 | rsimpkins | Not saying it is bad - just saying had these guys a clue what they were passing, they probably would have not supported it. |
| 20:23.35 | TehLaser | Are you talking about net neutrality or something? |
| 20:24.21 | TehLaser | I'm not sure anyone had a clue what they were passing. |
| 20:24.51 | TehLaser | Unforeseen effects all over the place. |
| 20:25.39 | rsimpkins | Yeah, big time. |
| 20:25.45 | rsimpkins | The act itself is interesting: http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d102:SN00272:@@@L&summ2=m& |
| 20:26.09 | rsimpkins | I think this part of the history of the 'net should be talked about more. |
| 20:27.15 | rsimpkins | " (3) providing security, including protecting intellectual property rights;" << sweet. :) |
| 20:27.33 | rsimpkins | (4) developing accounting mechanisms allowing users to be charged for the use of copyrighted materials; |
| 20:27.47 | rsimpkins | (5) purchasing standard commercial transmission and network services from vendors whenever feasible |
| 20:27.58 | rsimpkins | I mean, this thing is the reason WHY there is a net neutrality debate. |
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| 20:28.30 | sjansen | *ahem* |
| 20:28.32 | sjansen | http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/funny-pictures-cat-has-no-tact.jpg |
| 20:28.36 | sjansen | That is all. |
| 20:28.37 | TehLaser | I doubt it could have came about any other way. |
| 20:28.49 | TehLaser | Or, rather, in a way that didn't lead to questions of neutrality. |
| 20:29.10 | rsimpkins | sjansen: You would have a job if it weren't for Al Gore! ;-P |
| 20:29.39 | rsimpkins | meh, I fail. |
| 20:30.10 | TehLaser | The thing that makes the internet work is the interoperability. Short of preregulating something nobody really understood was coming, it couldn't really have "grown up" with enforced neutrality. |
| 20:30.24 | sjansen | ~fail rsimpkins |
| 20:30.25 | ibot | You suck at everything in life, rsimpkins. I hate you because you fail. |
| 20:30.53 | TehLaser | If it had been 100% government-owned and controled, it wouldn't have been able to evolve into the useful thing it is. |
| 20:31.15 | rsimpkins | TehLaser: So, what you're saying is, Al Gore and Harry Reid made the right call? |
| 20:31.18 | rsimpkins | but for the wrong reasons? |
| 20:32.09 | TehLaser | I don't know what their reasons were, and some of that bill looks rather protectionist, sure (don't push the telcos out!!!!!), but largely, yes. |
| 20:32.13 | Gate | OK, do you *honestly* think that the government regulating ISPs would make our lives better? |
| 20:32.48 | rsimpkins | regulating them to do what, exactly? |
| 20:32.49 | TehLaser | Oh come on. They already do. |
| 20:32.59 | Gate | Yeah, and it sucks already. |
| 20:33.06 | Gate | Net Neutrality |
| 20:33.19 | Gate | or the crap that Net Neutrality has been manipulated to mean |
| 20:33.55 | rsimpkins | So, do I believe the government should tell ISPs they can't block me from accessing any legal resource on the Internet, because it is a public resource? Is that what you're asking? |
| 20:35.02 | sjansen | Al Gore and Harry Reid were shock troops in Obama plot to make all world governments puppets of the UN. Though he looks young, Obama was actually cryogenically frozen by a clone of Karl Marx shortly after Walt Disney died. They've been waiting for technology to reach the point where they can use computer generated video of political debates to lull the masses into a false sense of freedom while a cabal of Cuban scientist make |
| 20:35.02 | sjansen | all the real decisions. |
| 20:35.31 | Gate | sjansen: hahaha |
| 20:36.36 | rsimpkins | sjansen: But, where do the Scientoligists fit in? |
| 20:36.43 | Gate | rsimpkins: problem 1: who defines "legal resource" |
| 20:36.53 | Gate | evidence: Australia and China |
| 20:37.21 | sjansen | Problem #1: Who defines "define". |
| 20:37.57 | TehLaser | Imagine that a private company (comcast) owned most of the city streets in town, and they also happen to own a furniture store (television service). Should they be allowed to erect a barrier in front of RCWilley (competing video service of some kind, hulu, youtube, take your pick)? |
| 20:37.59 | Gate | the gnomes in the dictionary factory |
| 20:38.04 | rsimpkins | sjansen: moo. |
| 20:38.07 | sjansen | I mean, can we really trust lawyers to use language? Should we leave it to real Americans to make that decision? I say we randomly select a fry cook at McDonalds and use his definition of "define". |
| 20:38.24 | Gate | TehLaser: no, that's why the users get to sue them |
| 20:38.24 | TehLaser | s/owned/bought/ |
| 20:38.53 | rsimpkins | sjansen: He'd tell you that define means the money you pay when they catching you peeing on the wendy's sign. |
| 20:39.17 | sjansen | Imagine there's no Comcast. It's easy if you try. No satellites above us. Below us only sky. |
| 20:40.08 | Supaplex | So What's Comcast again? |
| 20:40.16 | Gate | I honestly don't believe the internet would survive significant amounts of government regulation and still be a free medium for expression |
| 20:40.25 | TehLaser | There's some concept in speech law concerning privately owned public spaces. That's kinda what the Internet is. |
| 20:40.28 | sjansen | Apparently Comcast is a furniture store. |
| 20:40.36 | sjansen | Or was it a grocery store? |
| 20:40.39 | sjansen | I'm so confused. |
| 20:40.46 | rsimpkins | Gate: I'm not sure that is what NN is really about, according to the wikipedia article describing it. |
| 20:40.50 | Supaplex | maybe it's both. |
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| 20:41.37 | TehLaser | I remember a--very liberal--professor once saying that if there's a sidewalk on private property that connects to public property on both ends, then it is quasi-public. You have to let protesters and the like on it. |
| 20:41.50 | rsimpkins | I know it is hard, but we all know the solution to this NN issue. sjansen will decide which web sites you can and cannot view. All traffic will pass through the proxy server on his desk. |
| 20:42.07 | TehLaser | She also claimed this is why most stores avoid connecting their sidewalks. She's probably wrong, (e.g., Main Street Plaza) |
| 20:42.25 | TehLaser | But there's some sort of precendent out there on this sort of question. |
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| 20:44.13 | TehLaser | sjansen: a furniature store who bought all the roads to deliver furniature on, and are now preventing customers from visitng RCWilley. :) |
| 20:44.42 | TehLaser | (or possiably built, instead of bought) |
| 20:44.42 | rsimpkins | Where does comcast get its bandwidth from? |
| 20:45.06 | TehLaser | rsimpkins: they own lots of wires on utility easements. |
| 20:45.18 | rsimpkins | TehLaser: I mean, their internet. |
| 20:45.18 | TehLaser | Well, and fiber. |
| 20:45.29 | JoshH | rsimpkins: peering and transit? |
| 20:45.34 | rsimpkins | All of that stuff gets bundled up to seattle or denver, and then hits what? |
| 20:45.40 | TehLaser | They're probably big enough they can peer with other big networks. |
| 20:46.24 | JoshH | they do |
| 20:46.35 | TehLaser | Might own some of their own backbone too, not sure. |
| 20:46.41 | rsimpkins | Who do they peer with in Denver? |
| 20:47.03 | rsimpkins | They haul all wasatch front traffic to either seattle or denver over a private network, apparently. |
| 20:47.11 | rsimpkins | I don't know a lot about their network. |
| 20:47.36 | TehLaser | presuably, other ISPs in the POP. |
| 20:48.46 | Supaplex | just scarfed 3 bags of chips nom nom nom |
| 20:48.55 | Supaplex | small bags of course. :) |
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| 21:01.48 | Gate | rsimpkins: name one sector where once government started regulating one part of it, they didn't start regulating the rest |
| 21:03.13 | Gate | Unfortunately the term net neutrality has been morphed into a different term than it was a few years ago |
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| 21:21.33 | sjansen | http://www.indecisionforever.com/2010/04/15/fox-compares-nuke-summit-logo-to-muslim-flags/ |
| 21:23.32 | eightyeight | love it |
| 21:23.54 | eightyeight | don't recognize that it strikingly similar to the bohr model for the atom |
| 21:30.58 | sjansen | Obama's Nobel prize should have gone to Jon Stewart instead. |
| 21:36.21 | eightyeight | indeed |
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| 22:04.24 | unum | so has anyone here worked with curses in perl? |
| 22:04.33 | unum | well or curses in general |
| 22:04.44 | unum | I have to pages of information I want to display |
| 22:04.52 | unum | is there an easy way to flip back and forth |
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| 22:13.41 | sjansen | Anyone heard of hostmonster.com? Apparently it's based in Provo. |
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| 22:14.33 | gundy | Anyone want to do me a fav an ping 67.136.44.41? |
| 22:14.51 | fozzmoo | pings |
| 22:14.59 | fozzmoo | Dat good? |
| 22:15.44 | fozzmoo | 16 packets transmitted, 16 received, 0% packet loss, time 15539ms |
| 22:15.44 | fozzmoo | rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 123.889/176.238/288.134/49.281 ms |
| 22:15.51 | gundy | and what do you see for ms? |
| 22:15.51 | gundy | Nice |
| 22:16.01 | fozzmoo | But I'm on my aircard. :) |
| 22:16.05 | fozzmoo | So, don't trust my times. |
| 22:16.31 | fozzmoo | Let me try from a permanent host. |
| 22:16.36 | gundy | check this... |
| 22:16.39 | gundy | 64 bytes from 67.136.44.41: icmp_seq=10 ttl=242 time=14294 ms |
| 22:16.57 | gundy | lots more where those came from :) |
| 22:17.19 | eightyeight | 10 packets transmitted, 10 received, 0% packet loss, time 9037ms |
| 22:17.35 | eightyeight | behind a residential comcast connection |
| 22:18.23 | eightyeight | 64 bytes from 67.136.44.41: icmp_seq=10 ttl=243 time=79.5 ms |
| 22:18.42 | gundy | eightyeight, fozzmoo - thanks guys. |
| 22:18.50 | eightyeight | np |
| 22:20.27 | gundy | crazy issues with Integra. thats' |
| 22:21.16 | gundy | that's to the gateway without any of our hardware in the mix from several different hosts. |
| 22:21.35 | gundy | 15539ms - I've never seen anything that awesome before. |
| 22:22.30 | fozzmoo | gundy: Too bad the FCC isn't yet in the business of making sure everyone's ISP is up to snuff. |
| 22:22.56 | gundy | I know - it's not fair really. |
| 22:24.50 | tensai | gundy: I've had the pleasure of using internet with 10000ms+ RTT. it's as awesome as you think. |
| 22:30.38 | gundy | Only if I could pick some other provider based on better service/product/price... |
| 22:31.33 | gundy | Wait.... |
| 22:32.01 | gundy | We are dropping Integra for someone else. |
| 22:37.29 | tensai | rsimpkins: I see 17 peers for their UT networks, including cogent, gblx, sprint, aol, savvis, level3, at&t |
| 22:37.52 | tensai | based on this I'd be surprised if they're paying anybody for transit |
| 22:39.01 | tensai | but you never know. they probably receive more traffic than they send, much like my network |
| 22:45.08 | sjansen | discovers deja-dup in Fedora 13 |
| 22:45.15 | sjansen | That's awesome! |
| 22:55.01 | orsonj | Yep, nice little program |
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| 23:01.52 | tensai | what's the difference between $60 brake pads and $20 brake pads? |
| 23:04.01 | JoshH | more expensive ones last quite a bit longer, ime |
| 23:05.05 | RyanE | $40 |
| 23:05.19 | RyanE | Yes, my 3rd-grade math once again proves useful. |
| 23:06.40 | tensai | they both have lifetime warranties. is that meaningful? |
| 23:06.46 | tensai | RyanE: oh now I see! you're ever so helpful. |
| 23:07.12 | RyanE | I'd think the only difference is that if you're going to use the lifetime warranty (and remember where you filed your receipt and other docs), you'll be going back to put on the new pads more often. |
| 23:07.44 | RyanE | One's likely a 'metal' pad, which does wear longer than an 'organic' pad. |
| 23:09.16 | tensai | the $60 one says it's ceramic. the $20 doesn't really state. |
| 23:10.02 | tensai | "Platform specific friction" |
| 23:10.38 | tensai | RyanE: so does the lifetime warranty mean that as long as I own the vehicle, they'll give me free brake pads every time they wear out? |
| 23:10.58 | RyanE | You'd have to read the warranty to see. Some things are like that, others are 'lifetime', but prorated. |
| 23:11.36 | RyanE | I had a 'lifetime' starter for my '67 galaxy when I was in college, and I put 3 of them in on the same warranty. |
| 23:12.42 | RyanE | I just did my Nissan truck's front brake pads, I think they were $35, and had some sort of warranty, but I'm sure I've already chucked the receipt... |
| 23:12.45 | RyanE | What kind of car is it for? |
| 23:13.11 | tensai | toyota sienna |
| 23:13.38 | sjansen | Brake pads are for sissies. |
| 23:13.48 | RyanE | how long are you going to have the car? |
| 23:13.56 | RyanE | front or back pads? |
| 23:15.38 | tensai | RyanE: front. probably for quite a few years. |
| 23:16.18 | RyanE | Then I'd say spring for the better ones. Front brakes do most of the braking, and if you do have to replace them, it'd likely be on down the road a bit longer. But that's just me. |
| 23:17.09 | tensai | I'm not opposed to paying for things that last longer. I just don't want to get suckered just because it says "gold". |
| 23:17.52 | tensai | les schwab wants $121 for the pair, so they're probably using something akin to the $60 ones |
| 23:18.27 | RyanE | You could ask. |
| 23:18.41 | RyanE | There is quite a bit of info if you google Ceramic vs. Organic brake pads |
| 23:18.45 | tensai | but then I'd have to call them or go back. that's not likely. |
| 23:19.54 | RyanE | heh |
| 23:20.12 | tensai | actually this says "remanufactured calipers". that's not the same as just brake pads. |
| 23:21.06 | tensai | do I need to replace the calipers? that seems unlikely. |
| 23:21.38 | RyanE | I don't, and have never had to. |
| 23:22.50 | RyanE | On my 20yo Nissan, the master cylinder has been replaced twice (once under warranty for free!), but the calipers and pistons have been fine. |
| 23:23.15 | RyanE | time to go. Good luck on your decision. |
| 23:23.17 | RyanE | later |
| 23:23.20 | macnewbold | bye |
| 23:23.24 | RyanE | hey, mac! |
| 23:23.27 | tensai | RyanE: thanks |
| 23:23.27 | macnewbold | howdy! |
| 23:23.30 | macnewbold | don't let me keep you |
| 23:23.36 | RyanE | naw, I wouldn't do that. :) |
| 23:23.41 | macnewbold | next time i need brakes, i know who to call now |
| 23:24.02 | RyanE | I've done a few, but don't offer my services out... :) |
| 23:24.16 | RyanE | later. |
| 23:24.17 | macnewbold | yeah, i now own a 97 Chevy van |
| 23:24.21 | macnewbold | so i'm learning the art |
| 23:24.23 | RyanE | ouch. |
| 23:24.24 | macnewbold | of do it yourself |
| 23:24.27 | macnewbold | the hard way |
| 23:24.51 | macnewbold | 1 year = new battery, all new wiring to the battery, new starter, new alternator |
| 23:25.12 | macnewbold | plus one tow truck trip, and 3+ times towing it myself |
| 23:43.42 | TodPunk | tensai: is that the same Sienna that was recalled for the spare tire chord problem? |
| 23:45.56 | TodPunk | gundy: I'm debating rewriting my site in django, and I'm blaming you for it. |
| 23:46.20 | gundy | hehe |
| 23:46.35 | gundy | But if you are doing it for fun, do it in bash. |
| 23:47.28 | TodPunk | if I had time to do it for fun I'd do it in Haskell or Scheme |
