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| 01:45.12 | TodPunk | wow, active day today |
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| 05:12.28 | rsimpkins | Ahh, that was an epic thread - and sjansen had to go and start telling jokes! :-) |
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| 12:24.41 | eightyeight | rsimpkins: i doubt it's over |
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| 13:44.49 | eightyeight | http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=40865 |
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| 15:05.16 | Migs | http://www.osnews.com/story/23153/US_Government_Admits_Most_Piracy_Studies_Are_Nonsense |
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| 17:27.02 | pashdown | http://peteashdown.org/journal/2010/04/14/to-republican-and-democrat-state-delegates/ |
| 17:51.51 | tensai | pashdown: hippie |
| 17:52.15 | tensai | you and your radical ideas |
| 17:53.43 | pashdown | hey man! quit being a buzz kill! |
| 17:54.40 | fozzmoo | passes pashdown a twinkie |
| 17:54.47 | bonez2046 | pete.. thanks for the link.. |
| 17:55.04 | pashdown | mmmm, twinkie |
| 17:55.05 | bonez2046 | this will arm me in November when I urge all around me to Kick the BUMS out.. |
| 17:56.56 | pashdown | passes bonez2046 a twinkie |
| 17:59.06 | bonez2046 | thanks.. |
| 17:59.53 | bonez2046 | hey, the twinkie reserves will all survive the coming nuclear holocaust.. ;) my smartalec son always reminds us of this .. |
| 17:59.59 | bonez2046 | durable deliciousness |
| 18:00.49 | jsmith | bonez2046: That's actually not true... twinkies have a fairly short shelf life, and won't survive the end of life as we known it |
| 18:01.48 | tensai | considers doing a twinkies test |
| 18:01.53 | bonez2046 | oh, wow. I feel like a fool, listening to that propaganda.. My son will be crushed at this news |
| 18:43.42 | markl_ | heh, this is turning into #utah_politics lately :) |
| 18:49.42 | tensai | lately? clearly you missed the Great Vontrapp Debates |
| 18:49.52 | Supaplex | speaking of twinkies, I should upload a photo of one that grew some mold |
| 18:50.14 | JoshH | http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/south-park-and-avenue-q-guys-bringing-book-of-mormon-to-broadway/?hp |
| 18:55.08 | tensai | gee, why do I suspect the lds church isn't going to organize a bus tour for that one |
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| 18:57.13 | stderr | because it'll be playing at the same time as the Hill Cumorah Pageant? |
| 18:57.16 | stderr | I kid, I kid. |
| 18:59.21 | JoshH | stderr: do you watch big love? |
| 18:59.30 | tensai | stderr: maybe they'll offer a package deal |
| 19:00.08 | stderr | JoshH: yes |
| 19:00.11 | stderr | tensai: haha |
| 19:00.30 | JoshH | the hill cumorah scene on the previous season was pretty interesting, i wonder how realistic it was |
| 19:00.55 | stderr | I've heard it's pretty impressive (the pageant) |
| 19:01.25 | JoshH | i wonder if there are videos anywhere |
| 19:01.36 | JoshH | the scene reminded me of temple of doom |
| 19:02.28 | stderr | I wouldn't mind going and seeing it |
| 19:16.23 | Gate | wait, HB150 passed?! |
| 19:16.56 | Heartsbane | Gate: thanx for paying attention |
| 19:19.34 | Gate | maybe I should take the crypto-anarchists more seriously.... |
| 19:26.47 | goozbach | will that thread ever die!? |
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| 20:18.06 | Migs | http://www.crackshackormansion.com/ |
| 20:37.27 | rsimpkins | Gate: http://www.le.state.ut.us/~2010/htmdoc/hbillhtm/HB0150.htm |
| 20:38.54 | rsimpkins | I guess I don't see what the issue is. They can subpoena ISP records when they suspect a computer has been used in a crime. That's it, right? If so, doesn't this law just reflect reality? |
| 20:39.39 | JoshH | rsimpkins: the issue is that they don't need a subpoena, and no judge needs to look it over |
| 20:40.01 | goozbach | rsimpkins: when there's a supoena, and a judge is signing off on it, it's just fine |
| 20:40.10 | Gate | rsimpkins: its effectively allowing warantless searches |
| 20:40.20 | goozbach | it's when they get a request which hasn't been checked that scares me |
| 20:40.30 | tensai | Gate: s/effectively/ |
| 20:40.35 | rsimpkins | Um, I'm reading it - and I'm no lawyer, but it seems it is saying something different to me. |
| 20:40.39 | JoshH | shurtleff just wants to be able to root out his enemies more easily |
| 20:40.47 | Gate | rsimpkins: supoena's do not need to stand up to probable cause or due process |
| 20:41.10 | JoshH | this bill is for "administrative subpoenas" |
| 20:41.14 | JoshH | which are different |
| 20:41.15 | Gate | so a prosecutor can search on a "hunch" |
| 20:41.37 | tensai | they have to have a "reasonable suspicion", but that seems pretty easy to come by |
| 20:42.06 | tensai | a warrant means that a judge agrees it's reasonable |
| 20:42.20 | rsimpkins | So, if it is a suspected felony, harrasment, or stalking they can issue an "administrative subpoena" and get records? |
| 20:42.29 | Gate | yes |
| 20:42.45 | rsimpkins | And... I guess I don't see the shocker. |
| 20:42.46 | JoshH | and i think searching google or looking at a blog counts as cyber talking |
| 20:42.51 | JoshH | err stalking |
| 20:42.52 | rsimpkins | That kinda stuff has been going on a long time. |
| 20:43.00 | Gate | they don't need any proof or even evidence that you are guilty |
| 20:43.14 | Gate | yeah, doesn't mean we should let it get rubber stamped in Utah |
| 20:43.17 | rsimpkins | Yeah, that's how it has been working for a long time in practice, at least in my experience. |
| 20:43.29 | JoshH | rsimpkins: some isp's ignore warrants that aren't judge approved, some don't |
| 20:43.42 | JoshH | i mean subpoenas |
| 20:43.44 | JoshH | bah |
| 20:43.49 | JoshH | good ones do |
| 20:44.05 | rsimpkins | I wonder what an "administrative subpoena" actually is. |
| 20:44.15 | rsimpkins | Does that mean a cop+supervisor needs to review it, or what? |
| 20:44.16 | Supaplex | JoshHs' brain has subpoena on it. |
| 20:44.41 | Gate | I think prosecutors, with no imeediate review (could be wrong) |
| 20:44.45 | unum | what ever the attorney general says counts, counts |
| 20:44.51 | unum | that's the main problem |
| 20:45.22 | JoshH | it means shurtleff can see who leaked the story about him having improper relations with call centers to the tribune with no oversight |
| 20:45.44 | unum | correct |
| 20:45.47 | rsimpkins | JoshH: And, then what? |
| 20:45.48 | JoshH | that's why he asked for it |
| 20:46.02 | Gate | come up with a reason to fire them. |
| 20:46.07 | unum | ya |
| 20:46.21 | unum | or try and find any crime they may have ever committed |
| 20:46.24 | rsimpkins | Okay, so you're saying this puts whistleblowers in danger of being fired? |
| 20:46.27 | unum | like they did to aaron swartz |
| 20:46.34 | rsimpkins | who work for the government? |
| 20:46.39 | unum | not just them |
| 20:46.52 | JoshH | rsimpkins: is it really that hard to understand? |
| 20:46.52 | Gate | this puts EVERYONE in danger of maverick prosecutors |
| 20:46.54 | unum | anyone who might disagree with shurtleff might suddenly find themselves in jail |
| 20:47.04 | unum | it's common to find your suspect and then find the crime |
| 20:47.15 | rsimpkins | I see that there is a reporting mechansim. I wonder how that works. |
| 20:47.21 | Gate | this not only makes dirt digging in ISP logs legal, it hands them the troul |
| 20:47.32 | rsimpkins | Every year, they have to write a report on which records they went after. |
| 20:47.36 | unum | ya, I'd like to know how much oversite there is |
| 20:47.37 | rsimpkins | That seems like oversight to me. |
| 20:47.47 | unum | if he simply has to say I used it 5 times last month |
| 20:48.00 | rsimpkins | Oh, you're right. |
| 20:48.06 | rsimpkins | They only have to say how many they did. |
| 20:48.14 | rsimpkins | They should have fixed that. |
| 20:48.39 | JoshH | rsimpkins: you don't think a judge should have to approve all requests for records? |
| 20:48.47 | tensai | and even if the report shows abuse, or if a judge throws the case out, it could ruin a person in the mean time |
| 20:49.08 | unum | I'm more concerned about the situations that never go to court |
| 20:49.26 | rsimpkins | JoshH: I am not a laywer, I'm just saying they haven't been for years. While some ISPs might push back - the ones I've worked with don't. |
| 20:49.37 | JoshH | example? |
| 20:50.32 | rsimpkins | JoshH: I've personally and directly worked with several law enforcment agencies to provide information like what they list in this law (and even more) after recieving almost any request from a verified law enforcment agency, judge approved or not. |
| 20:50.37 | tensai | unum: that too |
| 20:50.55 | rsimpkins | I've been asked to do this directly, by those that employ me. |
| 20:51.12 | unum | that's why I worry about having so much info in the cloud |
| 20:51.22 | unum | linode can just hand my whole image to anyone that asks |
| 20:51.33 | unum | and I would never even know |
| 20:51.45 | rsimpkins | I've submitted stuff to law enforcment people all over the country, in several states, and probably a dozen times to the FBI. |
| 20:52.36 | rsimpkins | pretty much if it was law enforcment - we'd help. If it was just a laywer for some guy asking for info - we'd ignore it until it came from a judge. |
| 20:53.49 | rsimpkins | So, while I do agree with you guys that the reporting could be better, practially this does not seem like it will change much from real-world practices except at those ISPs that have previously not cooperated. |
| 20:53.53 | tensai | that sounds like a good plan. I've never heard of law enforcement abusing their power. |
| 20:54.21 | tensai | &sarcmark; |
| 20:56.09 | rsimpkins | Honestly, this law reads like someone saying 'hey, we need to probably have some well defined rules in place to prevent law enforcment guys from running amok like they are doing now' |
| 20:56.25 | rsimpkins | Now, at least in utah, they have very specific things they can go after. |
| 20:56.40 | rsimpkins | And that is it. |
| 20:56.41 | JoshH | we do have a warrant required policy here, but in general, i don't think cooperating with legit law enforcement requests is bad. but this whole thing reeks of shurtleff just wanting easier access, and not only that, but you can bet that almost every request you get now will in fact be an administrative subpoena |
| 20:57.08 | rsimpkins | Well, at least from Utah, sure. |
| 20:57.23 | rsimpkins | But it might make it easier. Rather than dumping TONS of logs over - we'll only send them what they actually request. |
| 20:57.59 | JoshH | i always call the agent that sent it and find out exactly what they really want, so i don't have to dig up too much |
| 20:58.10 | rsimpkins | Yeah, same. |
| 20:58.42 | rsimpkins | But right now they can ask for all kinds of stuff, and in my experience it is common to help them. I don't know how common, but in my experience it is. |
| 20:59.23 | JoshH | i can also say that every request i've seen from law enforcement has a judge stamp anyway. the only ones that don't have been things like a "subpoeana duces tecum", when some lawyer just wants to know who is defaming his client or whatever |
| 21:00.13 | tensai | I never get to see the actual warrants because I'm not at the company hq, but I always verify that we do have one before I look up anything |
| 21:00.15 | JoshH | maybe those ones do too, i actually haven't had one like that in years |
| 21:00.27 | rsimpkins | Most of the electorate is not going to care about this law though. There is little chance this will be modified. |
| 21:00.45 | JoshH | most of the electorate will say "oh wow it helps bust people for kiddy porn, i'm all for it" |
| 21:01.13 | JoshH | just like they said "oh wow bush can find the terrorists easier now, i'm all for this wiretapping" |
| 21:01.43 | rsimpkins | There does not seem to be a penalty if the ISP cannot provide this information because they don't store it. Do you guys see a penalty? |
| 21:02.06 | JoshH | what kind of stuff isn't stored? |
| 21:02.18 | rsimpkins | Like, if they don't hvae your address - for example. |
| 21:02.30 | rsimpkins | Or, if you paid cash for access, say at a cybercafe. |
| 21:02.49 | TehLaser | Or if you used free wifi in Starbucks. |
| 21:03.17 | rsimpkins | Right. Business also don't store that info. This seems very directed toward normal ISP subscribers. |
| 21:03.20 | TehLaser | isn't sure what the legal definition of "ISP" is. |
| 21:03.32 | JoshH | well, i don't have time to argue about this all afternoon, but suffice it to say that i'm not as meh about this as you are |
| 21:04.37 | rsimpkins | JoshH: I hear you, and I can't say I disagree with any of your points. |
| 21:06.57 | tensai | rsimpkins: I think the point is that maintaining the status quo is not a valid reason for this law. two wrongs don't make a right. |
| 21:07.23 | tensai | I also agree that it has little chance of being repealed. they played the child porn card and who can argue with that? |
| 21:07.40 | TehLaser | The troubling bit is that an ISP could have chosen, before, to implement a policy of not cooperating without a warrant. In fact, I know of some (outside of Utah) who do just that, and advertise as such. |
| 21:07.46 | TehLaser | Now, they can't do that here. |
| 21:08.07 | JoshH | maybe we can move the HQ to a PO box in delaware |
| 21:09.50 | rsimpkins | For me, this falls in to the "yeah, that sucks, but you better get used it it" category. |
| 21:10.08 | rsimpkins | That is, until I sense enough people actually are upset about it that it could change. |
| 21:10.26 | rsimpkins | And I see little consensus on such issues in utah. |
| 21:13.09 | rsimpkins | Maybe some day I'll move to Africa where I can raise an army and write my own laws, a little private warlord dictatorship. |
| 21:14.49 | JoshH | rsimpkins: that's basically the reality of it, yes, but my personal feelings are "this sucks and i hate shurtleff and i hate the morons who approved it and i wish blah blah blah", rather than "oh well, that's life" |
| 21:15.34 | rsimpkins | hehe |
| 21:16.10 | tensai | for me it's "I'm glad I don't live in Utah any more". I'm sure there are no egregious laws in Idaho. |
| 21:16.29 | rsimpkins | tensai: Too many guys with guns up north. |
| 21:17.02 | JoshH | it does really bug me how the people that tend to go on and on about freedom and liberty and how the government should have almost no power are always the ones who support these things |
| 21:17.38 | rsimpkins | JoshH: I know. It is pretty strange to me too. |
| 21:17.53 | JoshH | shurtleff was preaching about how obama is coming for our freedom at the teabag party 2 months ago, and now he's getting pretty much free access to everyone's data |
| 21:17.58 | goozbach | we have to PROTECT THE CHILDREN!!!GALSDFASDFSDAJ!~!!! |
| 21:18.34 | rsimpkins | goozbach: We just need to make it common to marry them off young again, like it used to be. |
| 21:18.40 | rsimpkins | Then you can't complain. ;-) |
| 21:19.19 | rsimpkins | 45 yo men marring 16 yo girls worked for my great, great grandfather. |
| 21:19.33 | rsimpkins | Oh, and that whole first cousin thing too. |
| 21:19.55 | goozbach | the CHILDREN!!!!! |
| 21:22.06 | Migs | age is just a number |
| 21:22.15 | goozbach | CHILDRE!!!!!N |
| 21:22.24 | Migs | what about the ADULTS!!?!?!? |
| 21:22.35 | Migs | surely their needs are just as important? |
| 21:23.00 | goozbach | CHILD!!!!!!........ |
| 21:23.14 | unum | well that's exactly how this law got passed |
| 21:23.20 | unum | originally it allowed for any crime |
| 21:23.28 | unum | then it was restricted to only laws involving children |
| 21:23.45 | JoshH | or cyberstalking |
| 21:23.53 | JoshH | which is about as vague and broad as any term i can imagine |
| 21:23.58 | unum | ya |
| 21:24.03 | rsimpkins | It allows them to use it during the investigation of any felony, stalking, or harrasment case. |
| 21:24.24 | unum | I hadn't looked at the full wording of the law |
| 21:24.30 | JoshH | we know there are all those cyberstalking victims out there who can't sleep at night because of their stalkers getting rss feeds from their blogs |
| 21:24.34 | unum | that's troublesome |
| 21:24.35 | rsimpkins | So, presumably, not just 'because' - but with no oversight - what's the difference? |
| 21:24.45 | JoshH | glad the state is looking out for them without pesky judges getting in the way |
| 21:25.17 | goozbach | REN!!!!!!! |
| 21:25.38 | rsimpkins | Studying a bit about Utah history, I think this over use of law enforcment started with that first murder in Utah. |
| 21:25.39 | unum | that's the thing that erks me the worst. this guy was complaing about big government less than a year ago |
| 21:25.58 | fozzmoo | unum: I think you mean "irks" |
| 21:26.13 | unum | rsimpkins: was utah still mexico then? |
| 21:26.15 | tensai | fozzmoo: no, he meang "ergs" |
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| 21:28.58 | rsimpkins | unum: I don't think it was. i can't remember the timing though. And I don't remember much about it other than people were so outraged that it had happened, they basically allowed the cops to steamroll their rights in to the ground. |
| 21:29.54 | JoshH | didn't early utah settlers not care much for the laws of the USA anyway? i mean they pretty much had BY as their dictator |
| 21:30.03 | rsimpkins | It isn't something I think you're likley to find on the Internet. There isn't a lot about Utah history on the 'net, really. |
| 21:30.30 | rsimpkins | JoshH: Yeah, I think they often took matters in to their own hands. |
| 21:30.43 | rsimpkins | Sort of a 'do-it-yourself' kind of state. :) |
| 21:31.02 | tensai | until 1896 they weren't part of the USA |
| 21:31.09 | fozzmoo | JoshH one of the modern LDS apostles told a story a year or so ago about the July 24 celebration a year after the original pioneers had arrived. There was lots of parading around with constitutions and US flags. |
| 21:31.39 | unum | fozzmoo: they still refused to take their cases to court |
| 21:31.46 | unum | dealt with the indians themselves |
| 21:32.03 | unum | s/court/federal court |
| 21:32.38 | keldwud | doesn't anyone in Utah ever get tired or bored with the "mormon" debate? ;) |
| 21:34.08 | unum | they also made their own money |
| 21:34.17 | unum | keldwud: I'm not sure what you mean |
| 21:34.41 | unum | you meaning disagreeing about anything related to mormons |
| 21:34.44 | fozzmoo | keldwud: No. Mormon debate is a LOT more civil than non-Mormon debate. :-P |
| 21:34.46 | unum | or about something specific |
| 21:35.32 | Migs | there's a debate? |
| 21:35.42 | unum | Migs: ya a "mormon" debate |
| 21:35.47 | Migs | what's there to debate? |
| 21:35.48 | unum | not sure what the sides are |
| 21:35.56 | Migs | Mormonism is true. Amen and amen. And thus it is, yea verily. |
| 21:35.56 | unum | hoping keldwud will come back and tell us |
| 21:36.04 | unum | no argument here |
| 21:37.03 | RyanE | I think someone was arguing that it was Socialist or something like that. :) |
| 21:37.09 | JoshH | fozzmoo, that surprises me if true |
| 21:37.15 | RyanE | runs away |
| 21:37.15 | unum | RyanE: WAS socialist |
| 21:37.20 | unum | I think we agree on that |
| 21:37.24 | JoshH | i understand tehy weren't too happy about johnston's army, but of course that would have been later |
| 21:37.44 | unum | ya |
| 21:38.52 | JoshH | if by mormon debate he means the "religious divide", i can say that as a nonmember, i really only have a few gripes with the church |
| 21:39.14 | unum | but that wasn't the debate we were having |
| 21:39.32 | unum | or was I on the "nonmormon" side again |
| 21:39.35 | JoshH | the state liquor monopoly and associated weird laws, the constant support of anti-gay legislation, and the fact that city creek center will be closed on sunday |
| 21:39.40 | unum | darn it, if I keep that up I'm going to heck |
| 21:39.58 | JoshH | other than that, i have nothing to debate about |
| 21:40.02 | RyanE | JoshH: glad the list is so short. |
| 21:40.55 | rsimpkins | THE CHILDRENN!!! |
| 21:40.55 | tensai | JoshH: but what if the gays were to get liquor and hang out at city creek on sundays? think of the children! |
| 21:40.55 | RyanE | heh |
| 21:40.55 | JoshH | that would be great for them! |
| 21:42.23 | JoshH | seriously though, i do believe that if those things were remedied, especially item number one, the bitterness between the sides in this state would be drastically reduced |
| 21:45.09 | RyanE | yeah, because yall'd be too drunk to care. :) |
| 21:45.30 | jsmith | could only hope it would be that easy :-) |
| 21:46.06 | JoshH | seriously, it would :) |
| 21:46.20 | JoshH | why do you think nobody gripes about the presbyterians? |
| 21:46.27 | JoshH | because it's not their fault the beer selection is terrible |
| 21:46.30 | tensai | then it's decided. let the free booze and green jello flow! |
| 21:46.53 | tensai | JoshH: I thought they recently relaxed a bunch of the liquor laws |
| 21:47.18 | JoshH | tensai: that's a bit of an exaggeration. |
| 21:47.39 | JoshH | they made it so instead of buying memberships for bars, you get your driver license scanend and the info on it stored on site for a week |
| 21:47.46 | markl_ | are you guys really debating about political issues from 150+ years ago? |
| 21:48.04 | JoshH | a couple other very minor things were changed, but nothing that most people ever notice |
| 21:48.14 | JoshH | like license changes, etc |
| 21:48.52 | JoshH | the media made it seem like a bigger step forward than it really was |
| 21:48.56 | unum | there are counties in the south where you can't by alcohol because of churches there |
| 21:49.37 | JoshH | i would be happy to let utah country be dry if salt lake county could be normal |
| 21:49.49 | unum | that would be nice |
| 21:49.50 | JoshH | when i lived in the dallas forth worth area for a year, the dry counties didn't bother me at all |
| 21:49.55 | JoshH | since they weren't around me |
| 21:49.58 | unum | in cache county you couldn't buy alcohol on sunday |
| 21:50.01 | unum | I think they changed that |
| 21:50.05 | RyanE | JoshH: so you're *really* going to be pissed knowing that in the UK, they have *32% alcohol* beer, that they're importing to the US! |
| 21:50.16 | tensai | you can't buy booze here until after like 2pm on sundays. I don't get that. |
| 21:50.24 | JoshH | here you can't buy it on sunday at all |
| 21:50.57 | tensai | "hey let's go buy us some booze. what? it's sunday? oh I guess we'll go to church instead." |
| 21:51.05 | JoshH | well you can in restaurants and bars |
| 21:51.10 | JoshH | but the state stores are closed |
| 21:51.13 | RyanE | tensai: You're saying that *doesn't* work? huh? |
| 21:51.43 | markl_ | RyanE: heh it isn't really beer anymore then |
| 21:51.57 | *** join/#utah zzzirk_away (~zzzirk@173-10-29-145-BusName-utah.ut.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 21:52.37 | Migs | mormonism was socialist? |
| 21:52.43 | Migs | well, I guess the law of consecration is about as socialist as it gets |
| 21:53.01 | jsmith | Socialist, or communist? |
| 21:53.01 | tensai | so shifting back to a tech topic, ever heard of a device whose ethernet port was incompatible with a particular switch? |
| 21:53.14 | JoshH | a lot of people think the 3.2 beer law isn't a big deal because our bud light is only slightly weaker than wyoming's, but it's not that simple |
| 21:53.18 | jsmith | tensai: Define "incompatible" |
| 21:53.29 | JoshH | for one, nothing over 3.2 can be on tap anywhere in the state, bottle only |
| 21:53.31 | tensai | works fine with other switches |
| 21:53.38 | tensai | jsmith-away: no link |
| 21:53.58 | jsmith | tensai: Switch hard-coded to half-duplex or something silly like that? |
| 21:54.04 | jsmith | tensai: Split pair in the cabling? |
| 21:54.16 | JoshH | and since anything over that has to be sold at the state liquor stores, warm and expensive (86% markup), a lot of popular non-huge breweries don't distribute here at all |
| 21:54.45 | tensai | jsmith: nope. tried hard coding and auto sense. we verified cables with a certifier. |
| 21:54.54 | rsimpkins | JoshH: If you don't like something, make it legal and then tax it. |
| 21:55.01 | RyanE | Actually, I suspect most of us don't think about it at all. |
| 21:55.53 | JoshH | RyanE: some don't, but there have been stories in the deseret news and stuff that say it's a myth or that it gets overblown, but they never notice the real effects of it |
| 21:58.10 | JoshH | besides, it's socialism :) |
| 21:58.46 | RyanE | heh. |
| 21:59.23 | JoshH | also, it does hurt the states reputation |
| 21:59.36 | JoshH | whenever i talk to a vendor from out of town, the liquor laws are always one of the first things they ask about |
| 22:00.28 | JoshH | and after i explain them, they just shake their head and wonder why mormon's come up with that stuff |
| 22:00.38 | JoshH | it basically causes problems without solving any |
| 22:00.54 | unum | ya |
| 22:01.25 | unum | and while many voters in the state may agree, they also don't really care |
| 22:01.31 | unum | except those that work in tourism |
| 22:01.36 | Migs | does it reduce drunk driving? |
| 22:01.40 | JoshH | nope |
| 22:01.53 | Migs | then what's the supposed purpose? |
| 22:01.57 | tensai | does it reduce underage drinking? |
| 22:01.59 | JoshH | pandering |
| 22:02.07 | JoshH | well that's the real purpose |
| 22:02.08 | unum | it keeps the nonmormons out!!! |
| 22:02.14 | unum | of course the mormons keep drinking |
| 22:02.16 | Migs | that's not it |
| 22:02.25 | Migs | Mormons have always welcomed non-Mos to Utah |
| 22:02.39 | Migs | back in the 19th century they'd even help build their homes and churches for them |
| 22:02.46 | unum | Migs: some mormons have always welcomed nonmormons, others not so much |
| 22:03.09 | unum | my ward helped landscape a nonmormon church last year |
| 22:03.15 | tensai | JoshH: if that's truly it, and not just to antagonize drinkers, they should do some case studies to see |
| 22:03.15 | unum | can't remember what sect now |
| 22:03.21 | unum | but anways some do, some don't |
| 22:03.30 | Migs | yeah, that's what I was just thinking, tensai |
| 22:03.41 | tensai | but that's far too rational I'm sure |
| 22:03.56 | Migs | I'd like to see what effects the alcoholic beverage laws in Utah actually have, and how it compares to other states |
| 22:04.27 | unum | the thing is most voters really just don't care |
| 22:04.45 | unum | if someone tried to make it a campaign issue out side of downtown it would just be a waste of time |
| 22:11.11 | keldwud | lol. sorry for disappearing |
| 22:11.41 | keldwud | I just meant any conversation about mormons vs nonmormons or what the mormons did when they settled here or how the mormons "control" the state and stuff like that :) |
| 22:12.03 | keldwud | full disclosure, I'm not a member of the LDS church |
| 22:12.13 | unum | so pretty much any disagreement that involves mormons :) |
| 22:13.02 | keldwud | yeah. pretty much :) after 30 years here, you tend to get quite bored with most of the conversations concerning the mormon church |
| 22:13.10 | keldwud | unless there's something new actually being said |
| 22:13.13 | Migs | I still find them fascinating. |
| 22:13.14 | keldwud | anyway, I'm disappearing again |
| 22:13.19 | Migs | you sound like a boring person. |
| 22:13.20 | RyanE | bubye |
| 22:13.26 | keldwud | migs - I *am* :) |
| 22:13.35 | Migs | you probably quickly get bored with a lot of things |
| 22:13.53 | Migs | am I right? |
| 22:14.35 | keldwud | nah, it took me 15 years to get bored with this one |
| 22:14.46 | keldwud | but I guess you could argue that 15 years is quick |
| 22:15.22 | Migs | if anything, Mormonism isn't discussed ENOUGH in Utah |
| 22:15.38 | Migs | universities should have college degrees in Mormon Doctrine |
| 22:15.55 | RyanE | Migs: I can send a couple of clean-cut 19-yo's to come discuss it with you, if you'd like. :) |
| 22:16.08 | Migs | oh man, I love missionaries |
| 22:16.14 | Migs | we haven't entertained any in TOO long, tbh |
| 22:16.42 | Migs | signs everyone up for missionary visits at mormon.org |
| 22:17.34 | JoshH | tensai, do you live in the boise area? |
| 22:18.46 | tensai | JoshH: no |
| 22:20.25 | JoshH | there's a restaurant chain called buffalo wild wings, closest one to slc is in meridian. they wanted to expand to utah, but are holding off because they can't get a liquor license here, since the state has a population based quota for them and has none left. they estimated that they would have brought about 1000 jobs to the state. |
| 22:20.33 | JoshH | i've heard they're pretty tasty |
| 22:20.37 | eightyeight | oh man, not this again |
| 22:21.17 | elg | are you antiwings? |
| 22:22.19 | eightyeight | 5 pages of backlog, and i see the words "mormon" "voting" and "drunk driving" |
| 22:22.33 | JoshH | blame keldwud |
| 22:22.36 | eightyeight | i can only imagine what was held in the conversation |
| 22:22.51 | tensai | hey, I tried to bring up a network question |
| 22:23.04 | JoshH | how uncivil could it be, this channel has like 3 non-mormons |
| 22:23.23 | eightyeight | i was just going to point out the awesome-ness of this: |
| 22:23.29 | eightyeight | http://www.vim.org/sponsor/vote_results.php |
| 22:23.36 | eightyeight | specifically, the hope of item #2 |
| 22:25.00 | jsmith | JoshH: Yeah, but not all of them are lemmings |
| 22:25.02 | markl_ | heh |
| 22:25.19 | markl_ | JoshH: what was that about the weird 3.2 beer laws? |
| 22:26.03 | JoshH | ? |
| 22:26.21 | JoshH | jsmith: indeed. none that i know in real life are either, it's weird. |
| 22:26.32 | markl_ | sorry i scrolled up a bit, you said a lot of people think the 3.2 beer law isn't a big deal because our bud light is only slightly weaker than |
| 22:26.35 | markl_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:26.48 | JoshH | scroll down a bit past that, i explained it |
| 22:26.54 | markl_ | ok there it is |
| 22:26.58 | jsmith | JoshH: Oh, I know some in real life... not as many as you'd expect, though :-p |
| 22:27.16 | markl_ | weird beer laws are ok as long as they hurry up and legalize pot |
| 22:27.16 | Migs | I fail to see what the problem is |
| 22:27.55 | tensai | there's talk of legalizing medical marijuana in idaho |
| 22:28.00 | Migs | if you're not getting drunk with Utah liquor, drink more. Problem solved. |
| 22:28.25 | JoshH | Migs: getting drunk isn't the goal for most adults |
| 22:28.52 | Migs | then what is the goal? |
| 22:28.56 | Migs | Why do people even drink? |
| 22:29.28 | JoshH | to be able to get the kind of beer that you like, on tap somewhere, or in a bottle at the grocery store |
| 22:29.44 | markl_ | Migs: that is really a complicated question |
| 22:29.58 | Migs | so you're saying people are really just too picky |
| 22:30.06 | Migs | just because the bars and stores don't have EXACTLY what they want, they get to complain |
| 22:30.29 | Migs | well sorry, buckaroo, but the world doesn't owe you everything. You can't get EVERYTHING you want. |
| 22:30.33 | JoshH | Migs: imagine if liberal gentiles banned ice cream containing too much sugar, and the women in your ward could only find abotu 3 different brands, and all of them were 10 bucks for a half gallon. would they complain about being oppressed? |
| 22:30.39 | markl_ | kind of the same reason that people complained about the lack of an in-n-out burger for so long |
| 22:30.43 | Migs | I want a flying jet-powered car with rocket launchers, but I'll just settle for my Toyota Camry for now. |
| 22:30.58 | Migs | JoshH: Since they're women, yes. |
| 22:31.11 | Migs | Sugar is bad for you, anyway. |
| 22:31.21 | markl_ | even though there were 50 zillion other burger places with more or less the same thing |
| 22:31.23 | tensai | so is arguing with Migs |
| 22:31.28 | JoshH | good point |
| 22:31.51 | Migs | It's simply supply and demand. Ice cream at $10/gallon would make it more of a delicacy. That's not a bad thing. |
| 22:32.17 | TodPunk | bad is an opinion word =cP |
| 22:32.22 | JoshH | anyway, if you're a fan of good beer and like to try a nice variety of them, you have to to idaho or wyoming, since the state only carries a small selection |
| 22:32.22 | reugen | well if you want ice cream it is :p |
| 22:32.54 | Migs | so? |
| 22:33.02 | JoshH | you also have to go there if you want a keg, since utah bans those too |
| 22:33.06 | Migs | k, then go to Idaho. Utah doesn't OWE you good beer. |
| 22:33.23 | Migs | anyway, taking the kids sled. Ciao! |
| 22:33.26 | tensai | JoshH: is it legal to bring that much liquor into the state? |
| 22:33.32 | eightyeight | are there laws against purchasing beer online, and having it shipped? |
| 22:33.40 | TodPunk | why would you take your kids' sled? Why not use an adult sled? |
| 22:33.44 | eightyeight | i honestly don't know |
| 22:33.54 | JoshH | of course not, but since it does make itself the only source of it, it has an obligation to offer the same level of service that the free markets do in other states, imo |
| 22:34.02 | JoshH | tensai: it's illegal to bring any alcohol into the state period |
| 22:34.10 | reugen | yeah |
| 22:34.16 | tensai | TodPunk: he likes to make them cry. last week he took their legos. |
| 22:34.18 | JoshH | eightyeight: in some states yes, including utah |
| 22:34.26 | eightyeight | that sucks |
| 22:34.35 | reugen | i think the only exception is some wines |
| 22:34.39 | eightyeight | i don't drink, but that seems oppressive |
| 22:34.42 | JoshH | nope, you can't bring wine either |
| 22:34.49 | JoshH | the state has a system for special orders of wine |
| 22:34.56 | reugen | ah ok |
| 22:34.58 | JoshH | actually for anything |
| 22:35.01 | JoshH | but it's very clunky |
| 22:35.13 | markl_ | ok how often does #utah get into the politics? seems like it was quiet for a long time and now it's out of control |
| 22:35.16 | TodPunk | I think it seems different, not oppressive. If you want to drink in your lifestyle, maybe you shouldn't have moved to Utah, or chosen to build a career here? |
| 22:35.20 | markl_ | maybe it's just primary season |
| 22:35.21 | JoshH | markl_: almost every day |
| 22:35.26 | tensai | JoshH: wow, I never knew all this. and these are the people complaining about socialism... |
| 22:35.26 | JoshH | TodPunk: i grew up here |
| 22:35.30 | eightyeight | Migs: what's your deal with the state "owing" anybody anything? if you're denied the rights other states have, you have every _right_ to complain |
| 22:35.35 | TodPunk | JoshH: see second option |
| 22:36.09 | JoshH | TodPunk: that's not a good option. thats' why a few general conferences ago, someone said to quit telling people "if you don't like it here, then leave" |
| 22:36.17 | tensai | markl_: we do go off topic a lot. it's not always politics. food is another common theme. |
| 22:36.37 | TodPunk | JoshH: I think that's how markets work best, to be honest. I don't plan on being in Utah all my life either. |
| 22:36.53 | TodPunk | tensai: food is an AWESOME theme |
| 22:37.08 | TodPunk | one that just about everybody does, too |
| 22:37.17 | tensai | made cheese and corned beef muffins for lunch |
| 22:37.20 | JoshH | TodPunk: i'd rather just vote for democrats here |
| 22:38.12 | TodPunk | JoshH: I'm fine with that option as well, so long as we're not expressing it in terms of oppression or something. The majority of people at the time thought it was a good idea. If we don't think so now, I'm all for a revote. |
| 22:38.30 | JoshH | it only seems like oppression if you're in the minority |
| 22:39.04 | JoshH | also, the monopoly and 3.2 thing started in 1934 |
| 22:39.06 | TodPunk | Personally, I'm all for letting anyone drink whatever they want, smoke whatever they want, and eat whatever they want, as long as it doesn't effect me. Hence, if you get a DUI, I think you ought to get a very heavy and serious book thrown at you. |
| 22:39.11 | JoshH | back then people thought a lot of things were good ideas |
| 22:39.38 | eightyeight | like 'happy cigarettes' |
| 22:39.40 | JoshH | TodPunk: so we agree? |
| 22:39.45 | TodPunk | pretty much =c) |
| 22:40.28 | TodPunk | Enough that I'd be fine chatting with you at a barbecue |
| 22:40.32 | JoshH | i like a lot of things about utah, just not the inversions, cold dryness, and beer regulations |
| 22:40.58 | JoshH | i like the jazz, the camping, etc |
| 22:41.15 | TodPunk | I don't go outside unless I have to, so not much of that concerns me |
| 22:41.56 | JoshH | 3.2 beer was actually legal during prohibition, and considered non-intoxicating |
| 22:42.01 | eightyeight | i hate that people think they need to bloom a flower in a desert |
| 22:42.26 | JoshH | then after prohibition ended, the state classified everything else as liquor, and brought it under the state monopoly |
| 22:42.29 | JoshH | and we still have it today |
| 22:42.30 | TodPunk | I hate that I have to have some grass =c( Can't I just to astroturf or something like they do in Arizona? |
| 22:42.44 | eightyeight | that's my point |
| 22:42.55 | TodPunk | *do astroturf |
| 22:42.57 | eightyeight | if you have a single dead spot, the city is sicked after you, and you're fined |
| 22:43.01 | *** join/#utah nobell (~nobell@m0f0e36d0.tmodns.net) |
| 22:43.09 | JoshH | i like desert landscaped yards in arizona, but when people have nothing but dirt and gravel it looks pretty ugly |
| 22:43.12 | eightyeight | if you don't have grass, but went with tree bark (or whatever), you're fined |
| 22:43.17 | fozzmoo | eightyeight: Sucks living in a society, doesn't it? |
| 22:43.23 | eightyeight | if you have too many weeds, you're fined |
| 22:43.35 | eightyeight | fozzmoo: no, it sucks living next to old people |
| 22:43.48 | TodPunk | I wouldn't call grass requirements "society |
| 22:43.50 | TodPunk | " |
| 22:44.00 | RyanE | Hey you kids, get off my grass! |
| 22:44.12 | RyanE | Now *that*'s society. |
| 22:44.13 | JoshH | eightyeight: i'd love to live next to old people instead of a young family with kids that run wild and unsupervised and make all kinds of racket |
| 22:44.23 | *** join/#utah elg (~fugalh@71-37-83-210.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 22:44.23 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 22:44.31 | TodPunk | JoshH: you now sound old |
| 22:44.42 | JoshH | i'm almost 30 |
| 22:44.43 | JoshH | yikes |
| 22:44.58 | TodPunk | though my 24-year-old neighbor got after my kids for being on their property |
| 22:45.01 | eightyeight | JoshH: i would rather live next to young families, with kids running everywhere. then at least my daughter would have more friends |
| 22:45.08 | TodPunk | so I guess it isn't an age requirement |
| 22:45.53 | eightyeight | i've had the city called on my for having clover, dandilions, barking dogs, and shingles coming off my roof |
| 22:46.04 | eightyeight | all from one "lovely" old lady |
| 22:46.13 | JoshH | heh |
| 22:46.16 | eightyeight | oh, and for leaving my garbage can on the curb |
| 22:46.20 | JoshH | oh no, not clovers |
| 22:46.36 | eightyeight | i can't wait to move |
| 22:46.52 | TodPunk | wouldn't mind Seattle area. |
| 22:46.56 | JoshH | eightyeight: sounds like she's just lonely. maybe you should have her over for dinner |
| 22:47.06 | JoshH | TodPunk: portland is my favorite |
| 22:47.10 | stderr | see, that's why we have to get rid of social security |
| 22:47.14 | TodPunk | I don't like Portland people |
| 22:47.22 | TodPunk | Medford people were ok |
| 22:47.32 | JoshH | portland has the nicest people i've ever met |
| 22:47.50 | TodPunk | In my limited experience, a lot of them were also really dumb |
| 22:48.08 | *** join/#utah Tadaka (~Tadaka@c-76-27-2-230.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 22:48.15 | JoshH | well, it is in america |
| 22:48.17 | TodPunk | Though I'd rather have nice than intelligent |
| 22:49.07 | JoshH | i like seattle too though |
| 22:49.09 | JoshH | it's just not as laid back |
| 22:50.13 | JoshH | but it's easy enough to visit from portland |
| 22:50.41 | JoshH | i like denver too, even though some of the rudest people i've met have been there |
| 22:51.09 | TodPunk | I don't like denver. Not a place I'd like to raise my kids. |
| 22:51.47 | JoshH | why not? |
| 22:53.58 | stderr | man sjansen is coming heavy |
| 22:54.11 | JoshH | ya, something really touched a nerve with him |
| 22:55.17 | stderr | the amount of people who've become much more liberal in PLUG over the past 4 or 5 years brings a tear to my eye |
| 22:55.48 | eightyeight | JoshH: hah. no, she's just crazy. her whole family is. |
| 22:56.40 | JoshH | stderr: of course, these days anyone who isn't a teabagger seems like a leftist |
| 22:57.01 | stderr | Haha, touche. |
| 22:57.36 | stderr | and it's "commie", not leftist. |
| 22:57.48 | eightyeight | i have a great deal of respect for sjansen, but i don't understand his name calling on mailing lists |
| 22:58.10 | JoshH | i prefer "socialist parasite" |
| 22:58.17 | TodPunk | JoshH: Just a lot of crime and bad vibes I get. Corruption all over the place in that city. |
| 22:58.32 | TodPunk | Granted, I grew up in Chicago, so it's relatively minor comparatively |
| 22:58.47 | stderr | Denver is kind of dirty. |
| 22:59.20 | JoshH | it's like salt lake's wild west cousin |
| 22:59.48 | TodPunk | I think SLC is just crazy and disorganized |
| 23:00.06 | stderr | was that sarcasm? |
| 23:00.19 | TodPunk | nope |
| 23:00.28 | TodPunk | as opposed to dirty,I mean |
| 23:00.42 | stderr | SLC is one of the least crazy and most organized cities I've been in. |
| 23:00.58 | stderr | you want crazy and disorganized? Try Reno. |
| 23:01.03 | TodPunk | stderr: I take it you've been to the east coast then |
| 23:01.10 | stderr | Uh, yea. |
| 23:01.11 | ljenkins | but some of the streets are NOT north/south in SLC these days! how can anyone get around? |
| 23:01.12 | TodPunk | Reno's fine except for its roads |
| 23:01.24 | ljenkins | *north/south - east/west |
| 23:01.50 | stderr | <- !utahn |
| 23:02.05 | RyanE | Well, we just look up at the Wasatch Front, it's Utah's built-in Compass. |
| 23:02.23 | JoshH | phoenix is a great place to drive, not because of organization, but because all the roads are smooth as butter |
| 23:02.27 | JoshH | i don't think i've ever seen a pothole there |
| 23:02.39 | TodPunk | it also doesn't rain there |
| 23:02.47 | stderr | I cannot stand Phoenix. |
| 23:02.49 | JoshH | well it has the monsoons |
| 23:02.53 | JoshH | but ya the climate is why |
| 23:02.58 | ljenkins | phoenix was an urban planners dream job |
| 23:03.07 | stderr | except for the lack of water |
| 23:03.14 | stderr | oh wait, we'll just steal it from the Colorado! |
| 23:03.16 | *** part/#utah eggyknap (~jtolley@unaffiliated/eggyknap) |
| 23:03.21 | RyanE | JoshH: having just returned from Phoenix, I disagree. From 7-11 and from 3-6, it's a bad place to drive. |
| 23:03.24 | ljenkins | "yeah we'd like to build out infrastructure for a few million more folks over the next 5 years in this big flat spot out there. Have at" |
| 23:03.40 | JoshH | RyanE: i've been back and forth to downtown at rush hour and the traffic never seemed all that bad |
| 23:03.48 | JoshH | worse than salt lake of course, but everywhere is |
| 23:04.13 | RyanE | Every time I've visited, rush hour is terrible. |
| 23:04.22 | JoshH | my mom lives in avondale, az, on the west side of the valley |
| 23:04.27 | ljenkins | so are you not in SLC anymore stderr, or is it just one of those it will never be home kinda things? |
| 23:04.27 | RyanE | The locals tell us that you should either go earlier or wait to leave until later. |
| 23:04.34 | ljenkins | <-= A btw |
| 23:04.43 | stderr | hah |
| 23:04.48 | stderr | really? Luke? |
| 23:04.50 | ljenkins | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:05.04 | stderr | I'm back in SLC, just not 'home'. |
| 23:05.14 | ljenkins | was down at eco's monday night for game night, you should have come |
| 23:05.25 | stderr | we were returning from Sedona |
| 23:05.29 | stderr | optikal and I |
| 23:05.30 | ljenkins | ah word |
| 23:05.35 | JoshH | mmm, sedona |
| 23:05.40 | stderr | mmm, sedona indeed |
| 23:05.54 | JoshH | i'm a big arizona fan in general actually |
| 23:05.56 | ljenkins | yeah he walked in looking like he had just rolled in the dirt for a few days as the zombie apocalypse was comming to a close |
| 23:05.56 | RyanE | Sedona sure is 'touristy'. |
| 23:06.14 | stderr | yea, it's touristy, but you can avoid them |
| 23:06.15 | JoshH | it's too bad phoenix isn't in one of the more beautiful areas of the state |
| 23:06.17 | RyanE | we only stopped by on our way through, though, so I suppose we only saw the touristy parts. |
| 23:06.18 | TodPunk | All this talk of places to live is reminding me that I don't have a job yet. |
| 23:06.22 | stderr | 1) don't camp in campsites |
| 23:06.28 | stderr | 2) go on hikes longer than 10 miles |
| 23:06.47 | ljenkins | I enjoyed what I saw of flagstaff when I drove though a month or so ago |
| 23:06.59 | JoshH | flag is cool because of the peaks |
| 23:07.07 | JoshH | and i-17 between there and phx has some great scenery |
| 23:07.13 | ljenkins | but the sunbirds wouldn't pay what they do to live in phoenix as cold as it gets |
| 23:07.47 | ljenkins | yeah was in the awesome time about an hour before sunset as I was driving down that stretch, looked surreal |
| 23:08.06 | stderr | http://www.flickr.com/photos/dataw0lf/4518747688/sizes/l/ |
| 23:08.09 | ljenkins | new green plants + super yellow light made it look alien |
| 23:08.20 | stderr | 500 foot drop underneath that arch optikal and dracus are standing on |
| 23:08.42 | ljenkins | wow |
| 23:08.44 | stderr | http://www.flickr.com/photos/dataw0lf/4516784643/sizes/l/ |
| 23:08.56 | stderr | there're some great hikes out there, if you pick the right ones. |
| 23:09.01 | RyanE | that is gorgeous |
| 23:09.09 | RyanE | when were you there? |
| 23:09.15 | stderr | this past weekend |
| 23:09.26 | RyanE | We were at the South Rim of the Grand Canyon a week ago, it was cold and windy. |
| 23:09.46 | stderr | it was gorgeous while we were there, mid 70s, didn't drop below 45 at night |
| 23:10.06 | stderr | on our way back Monday though, from about an hour north of flagstaff, to Salt Lake City, huge snowstorm |
| 23:10.10 | RyanE | The only time we were cold was at the Grand Canyon, and also in Flagstaff. |
| 23:10.15 | stderr | it was pretty nuts seeing the red rock desert covered in drifts of snow |
| 23:10.17 | JoshH | last time was at the grand canyon was january 09, and it was freezing and miserable |
| 23:10.30 | fozzmoo | has never seen the Grand Canyon. |
| 23:10.33 | stderr | yea, Flagstaff is, what, 8k elevation? |
| 23:10.33 | RyanE | Our time in Phx was perfect weather. |
| 23:10.34 | fozzmoo | Keep meaning to get down there. |
| 23:10.37 | RyanE | fozzmoo: big hole in the ground. |
| 23:10.44 | stderr | hehe |
| 23:10.53 | JoshH | the amazing thing about az is how the northern part of the state is so high and cold, then you get towards phoenix, drop thousands of feet very quickly, and it gets much hotter and more "desert like" |
| 23:11.31 | JoshH | RyanE: what viewpoint were you at? |
| 23:12.15 | JoshH | i love desert view and the cool tower |
| 23:12.19 | RyanE | It was cool, we weren't there for long. |
| 23:13.37 | RyanE | We went to the Observation tower and walked the short hike over to Yavapai Point. |
| 23:13.51 | stderr | I need to get a D300S so I can waterproof my D90 for kayaking down the Snake |
| 23:14.37 | stderr | http://www.ikelite.com/web_two/nik_d90.html |
| 23:14.38 | RyanE | Kids did the 'Jr. Ranger' thing, and also at Glen Canyon dam. |
| 23:14.47 | stderr | ahhh, glen canyon is pretty too |
| 23:15.02 | stderr | http://www.flickr.com/photos/dataw0lf/4517446564/sizes/l/ |
| 23:15.12 | RyanE | we did both dams. Down past Glen Canyon, back over Hoover. |
| 23:15.18 | stderr | nice |
| 23:15.23 | RyanE | Took the dam tour on my daughter Megan's birthday. |
| 23:15.29 | RyanE | on Easter morning. |
| 23:16.02 | JoshH | RyanE: i always do that too |
| 23:16.13 | JoshH | usually stay in kanab on the way down, mesquite on the way back |
| 23:16.19 | JoshH | can't drive nonstop with a woman and kids |
| 23:16.33 | RyanE | We stayed in Page, because we wanted to drive from there to the grand canyon, then on to flagstaff in the same day. |
| 23:16.51 | stderr | man, they have places to stay in Page? |
| 23:16.59 | RyanE | A few. |
| 23:17.13 | JoshH | sometimes i'll hit laughlin |
| 23:17.19 | JoshH | i like the river crossing there |
| 23:17.44 | JoshH | did you go to phoenix just for vacation? |
| 23:18.18 | RyanE | Yep. We have a friend from college who lives down there, and my wife's brother and his family. |
| 23:18.33 | RyanE | We haven't been down there in 4-5 years, figured it was the right time of year to go. |
| 23:18.39 | JoshH | the zoo there is pretty nice and awesome if you have kids |
| 23:19.08 | JoshH | and scottsdale fashion square is heaven for wives |
| 23:19.20 | RyanE | We did the train museum, the 'mystery castle', and Fry's Electronics (for me!) |
| 23:19.53 | JoshH | i always want to go to frys, but always end up stocking the trunk at bevmo instead :) |
| 23:20.05 | stderr | haha, we saw a Fry's in Flagstaff that turned out to be a grocery store. |
| 23:20.07 | stderr | I felt burned. |
| 23:20.12 | JoshH | ya, frys there = smiths |
| 23:20.17 | RyanE | Yeah, there's a lot of frys. |
| 23:20.30 | JoshH | like ralph's in california |
| 23:20.40 | RyanE | I had planned on hitting Frys, but didn't know where it was, but we got off the exit to go to the mystery castle, and Boom!, there it was. |
| 23:20.54 | RyanE | so we hit it on the way back. |
| 23:21.00 | RyanE | time to go. Later. |
| 23:21.09 | JoshH | slc needs a frys desperately |
| 23:21.14 | RyanE | amen, brother. |
| 23:21.15 | stderr | cya |
| 23:21.20 | stderr | yea, SLC needs SOMETHING. |
| 23:21.22 | markl_ | no doubt about that |
| 23:21.32 | markl_ | dude, EBC should be good enough for just about anybody! |
| 23:21.38 | stderr | haha |
| 23:21.53 | JoshH | we need a yardhouse |
| 23:21.57 | JoshH | or 3 |
| 23:22.25 | stderr | and a Dave & Busters |
| 23:22.37 | JoshH | i keep hearing rumors that we will get a dave and busters |
| 23:22.43 | JoshH | someone told me they heard an ad for it on x96 |
| 23:22.57 | stderr | really?! |
| 23:23.01 | JoshH | i don't see how how it would work though |
| 23:23.05 | stderr | yea |
| 23:23.29 | JoshH | i've only been to d&b in florida when i ws 18, and ended up getting kicked out along with the older friend who was buying me beer |
| 23:23.32 | stderr | if there was a profession entitled "drunk video game player", I'd have my Ph.D |
| 23:23.44 | JoshH | actually maybe i was 19 |
| 23:23.46 | JoshH | somewhere around there |
| 23:24.10 | JoshH | it was a business trip with some coworkers from a canadian office |
| 23:24.23 | JoshH | and they kept complaining how lame it was that i couldn't be there since canada's drinking age was 18 |
| 23:25.13 | JoshH | ferrari f355 challenge was still in arcades at the time, and playing that while drinking was pretty epic |
| 23:27.10 | *** part/#utah ljenkins (~ljenkins@2001:1948:212::a) |
| 23:39.23 | *** join/#utah mrpull (~Jake@205.158.184.126.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 23:45.46 | *** join/#utah jalbretsen (~jalbretse@c-76-27-51-43.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |