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| 06:42.03 | *** topic/#utah is logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/#utah | Dude! it's just another Monday! |
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| 15:27.16 | Migs | I'm in a Second Life conference right now, and the people are talking about the most "comfortable" seats they can sit in during the presentation |
| 15:27.17 | Migs | wtf? |
| 15:27.51 | JoshH | it's very realistic |
| 15:34.05 | Migs | someone was making a big deal about how she can't sit in the chairs in the ampitheater, and has to sit on the railing instead |
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| 15:49.37 | JoshH | man, what's with all these people on plug who think leaving comcast is a simple solution |
| 15:49.44 | JoshH | do they live somewhere with tons of isps? |
| 15:50.26 | JoshH | oh i see, you can just start your own isp |
| 15:50.36 | JoshH | didn't think about that |
| 15:51.13 | utahcon | JoshH: Leaving comcast is easy, as long as you like Qworst. |
| 15:51.34 | unum | in provo they have iprovo |
| 15:51.39 | unum | here in murray we have utopia :) |
| 15:51.44 | utahcon | hates unum |
| 15:51.49 | JoshH | "comcast" is a metaphor for the pitiful group of choices in most areas |
| 15:51.51 | unum | I'm moving to sandy :( |
| 15:51.57 | utahcon | will not care on July/August when he moves into new house with fiber |
| 15:52.07 | JoshH | unum: i'm under contract on a murray house that can get utopia now |
| 15:52.13 | unum | that's when I'll be moving to one with out |
| 15:52.14 | JoshH | just have to hope somethign doesn't ruin it for me |
| 15:52.27 | unum | I'll still have it at work |
| 15:52.33 | unum | I don't use the internet much at home |
| 15:52.44 | JoshH | of course these glenn beck lovers probably hate utopia too |
| 15:53.09 | unum | actually they don't |
| 15:53.20 | unum | remember it's only pork if the money is spent in an other state |
| 15:53.31 | JoshH | it's still socialism though |
| 15:53.35 | JoshH | marxism even |
| 15:53.41 | JoshH | slavery of the masses |
| 15:53.50 | unum | rather I should say it's only markism when you can't cleary see how you benefit |
| 15:54.19 | unum | most of my family is conservative, I'm the only one in the family who doesn't have his health care paid for by the federal government |
| 15:54.51 | unum | they think everyone ELSE should be fired from the government just not them or their spouses |
| 15:56.31 | JoshH | i guess i just don't understand why they think it's ok to force correct labeling of the nutrition on a frozen pizza, but communism to force a monopoly or duopoly isp to operate honestly and fairly |
| 15:57.03 | JoshH | my guess is too much glenn beck |
| 15:57.29 | unum | now many of the people in this channel were upset about things for over a decade |
| 15:57.51 | unum | many people I know didn't care about all the government intrusion and deficit spending until jan 20th 2009 |
| 15:57.55 | unum | that's what really ticks me off |
| 15:58.30 | JoshH | but the president was white before then |
| 15:58.42 | JoshH | fully white, not just half |
| 15:59.08 | unum | glenn back didn't tell them to be upset about it until then |
| 15:59.17 | unum | they say they didn't care because the economy was good |
| 15:59.23 | unum | even though it had started tanking before then |
| 15:59.29 | unum | any ways |
| 15:59.46 | unum | can someone explain to me when I should use < vs lt in perl |
| 16:00.02 | fadein | unum: lt is for comparing strings |
| 16:00.09 | fadein | unum: < is for comparing numbers |
| 16:00.26 | unum | ok, that's how I've been doing it |
| 16:02.07 | fadein | btw, it's not Monday anymore. could we get a new topic? |
| 16:06.58 | jsmith | ~wake goozbach |
| 16:06.59 | ibot | ACTION throws a barrel-full of ice water on goozbach and shouts "GOOD MORNING!!!!" |
| 16:08.21 | *** topic/#utah by tensai -> logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/#utah | coming to Spring phones in 2010: harleypig in a bikini! |
| 16:08.28 | *** topic/#utah by tensai -> logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/#utah | coming to Sprint phones in 2010: harleypig in a bikini! |
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| 17:12.45 | goozbach | mornin jsmith |
| 17:12.56 | goozbach | I've been in meetings since 8:15 this morning |
| 17:13.02 | goozbach | so I did need that wakeup |
| 17:13.15 | goozbach | and 8:15 is like 45min sooner than I normally wake up... |
| 17:34.46 | JoshH | wonders what steven alligood is smoking |
| 17:40.07 | tensai | sounds like glenn beck inspired paranoia |
| 17:47.27 | bonez2046 | who's steven alligood? |
| 17:48.40 | JoshH | someone who thinks that if you don't like comcast messing with your dns, you should just use dialup because if the government clamped down on that we would have a stalinist regime |
| 17:49.00 | JoshH | or start your own isp |
| 17:49.14 | JoshH | to be fair, there are 3 or 4 people that think that way, not just him |
| 17:53.16 | bonez2046 | insane |
| 17:56.00 | eightyeight | you can always count on plug for people to come out of the woodwork |
| 17:56.03 | bonez2046 | how about Bob Frankston and his ideas about net regulation? |
| 18:15.47 | JoshH | some non-techies i know were applauding the FCC ruling the other day. i asked them why, and they think the only reason anyone wants net neutrality is so comcast wouldn't be able to block piracy anymore, referring to the bittorrent stuff. |
| 18:15.59 | JoshH | those are the kind of people who could really be swayed by what glenn beck says about it |
| 18:16.37 | goozbach | I am *SO* glad I'm ignoring that thread |
| 18:17.24 | JoshH | i tried explaining more, but could never get beyond "as far as i'm concerned comcast should be able to stop piracy any way it wants to, good for them" |
| 18:17.48 | JoshH | ignorance always reigns i suppose |
| 18:18.30 | JoshH | and of course, they also said "government regulation" like it was a dirty word |
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| 18:24.05 | TodPunk | JoshH: I think I may have fueled his fire |
| 18:24.40 | TodPunk | Alligood's I mean |
| 18:26.23 | TodPunk | I probably didn't communicate very well because apparently the 4 responses I got missed the point. I'll have to remember to do better next thread. |
| 18:28.48 | JoshH | personally i just don't see why the internet isn't considered more similar to telecommunications, as far as certain reg's go. |
| 18:29.53 | JoshH | i don't see why anyone thinks that intercepting dns is fine but giving you ads when you dial a wrong number is not |
| 18:30.38 | JoshH | the former isn't technically that bad if you can opt out i suppose, but now that isp's are starting to redirect all your dns traffic even if you run your own server, it's out of control |
| 18:46.03 | bonez2046 | ignorance reigns supreme.. as does our King O.. ;) |
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| 19:32.00 | unum | so a guy legally changed his name to prolife and filed for governor of idaho |
| 19:35.15 | macnewbold | sounds like something superdell might try... |
| 19:43.05 | TehLaser | An invisible DNS proxy? Ouch, that's nasty. |
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| 20:33.06 | rsimpkins | JoshH: Isn't Glen Beck an amazing guy? There are people here at work that really take it quite seriously. |
| 20:33.16 | fozzmoo | raises his hand |
| 20:33.28 | fozzmoo | And it's GleNN Beck. Two Ns. |
| 20:33.33 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: In the form of a nazi salute? ;-) |
| 20:33.51 | rsimpkins | Glennnn Beckkkk << sounds german to me. ;-) |
| 20:34.15 | fozzmoo | I agree with the chorus that he's off in la-la land on net neutrality simply because he's not a technical person. |
| 20:34.51 | JoshH | fozzmoo: i can understand liking him somewhat in his CNN days, if you were conservatively inclined, but ever since the fox move he's become an absolute loon. probably just because of the nuttier audience, but still. |
| 20:35.20 | fozzmoo | From a non-technical perspective, its easy to see net neutrality as government overbearance. |
| 20:35.39 | JoshH | why can't any conservative pundits be intelligent, rational, and well reasoned? |
| 20:35.45 | rsimpkins | I think he is an entertainer, and consideres himself such. Kind of like the conservative version of Jon Stewert |
| 20:35.48 | JoshH | would that be too boring? |
| 20:35.48 | fozzmoo | JoshH: I've been an avid listener/reader/watcher/follower for over 5 years now. |
| 20:35.56 | fozzmoo | pffft. |
| 20:36.32 | fozzmoo | Stewart is funny, but he's also a hateful bastard. |
| 20:36.42 | JoshH | but beck isn't? |
| 20:36.56 | unum | I think stewart hates a lot less than beck |
| 20:37.01 | fozzmoo | heh heh. Whatever. |
| 20:37.04 | JoshH | colbert hates less than either |
| 20:37.21 | goozbach | JoshH: what about BEARS!? |
| 20:37.25 | goozbach | he hates bears! |
| 20:37.30 | goozbach | lots and lots! |
| 20:37.48 | JoshH | good point |
| 20:39.01 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: If you find him interesting, I think we can both agree. I think he is an interesting person. |
| 20:41.13 | rsimpkins | Someone should put together a youtube vid of all the times mr. beck has used the word Nazi or Marxist. |
| 20:41.23 | rsimpkins | That'd be pretty sweet. |
| 20:41.29 | fozzmoo | And it would defeat the point. |
| 20:42.02 | fozzmoo | Beck is a student of history and has been TRYING, especially in 2010, to get his audience(s) to learn history. |
| 20:42.33 | fadein | hyperbole is the best teaching method, ever |
| 20:43.45 | unum | he was a bad student of history if he can claim the founding fathers all had the same vision |
| 20:44.02 | unum | and the vast majority of his show seems to be preaching that the founding fathers had one vision |
| 20:44.25 | unum | he doesn't pull out the federalists and anti-federalists papers and discuss the arguments the two groups have |
| 20:44.42 | unum | he piles the books on his desks, and TELLS his audience what's in them |
| 20:44.56 | unum | even though they contradict each other let alone what he's saying |
| 20:45.17 | fozzmoo | unum: Yep. One vision. It's a vision where we all go to church, pray before (private) school, and vote a straight republican ticket every election. |
| 20:45.33 | JoshH | unum: dude he went to the library and read a lot to teach himself, that sounds like a great student if you ask me |
| 20:45.35 | fozzmoo | THat's what the founding fathers believed. You better believe it. |
| 20:45.35 | unum | that's what glenn beck would have you believ |
| 20:45.45 | unum | JoshH: he tells you he did that |
| 20:45.51 | rsimpkins | hehe. :) |
| 20:45.59 | unum | I have a hard time believing he's read very much |
| 20:46.05 | *** part/#utah eggyknap (~jtolley@unaffiliated/eggyknap) |
| 20:46.17 | unum | I haven't read very much and I know what he's saying is wrong |
| 20:46.42 | JoshH | i wonder if he realized that libraries are socialist |
| 20:47.46 | unum | can you believe the government FORCES you to buy books |
| 20:48.00 | unum | shoot and then you have to ask for their permission to "borrow" them |
| 20:48.08 | fozzmoo | I've followed Glenn Beck for the last five years and have found him spot-on on almost all of his observations and predictions. |
| 20:48.10 | unum | and they tax you if you don't bring them back on time |
| 20:48.18 | fozzmoo | Some people say "He's only in it for the money!" No, that's not true. He's definitely interested in making a good living and being successful (there's nothing wrong with that), but I believe he's also doing it because he feels it's the right thing to do. |
| 20:48.21 | unum | it's marxism |
| 20:48.41 | fozzmoo | Now, I don't care if anyone else has religious convictions, but mine were significantly and substantially affected when I attended Glenn Beck's Christmas show in 2006 at Kingsbury Hall. He told his conversion story of how he found God and then Mormonism. |
| 20:48.51 | stderr | fozzmoo: You don't think Glenn Beck is merely taking advantage of less-intelligent people for profit? |
| 20:49.01 | stderr | I mean, republishing Common Sense? |
| 20:49.03 | unum | a story that harry reid is not allowed to share....... |
| 20:49.10 | stderr | As CONSERVATIVE propaganda? |
| 20:49.14 | unum | I guess he could do it at a private venue for $100 a ticket..... |
| 20:49.21 | stderr | I don't know what kind of koolaid you're drinking, but I want some |
| 20:49.42 | unum | fozzmoo: I don't care about his relious convictions |
| 20:49.50 | JoshH | fozzmoo: why would he even bring up net neutrality, knowing nothing about it, if not to capitalize on the knee jerk right wing reaction to "government regulation"? |
| 20:49.51 | stderr | Don't get me wrong, I'm endlessly amused by Glenn Beck, super neocon boy wonder, championing Paine. |
| 20:50.03 | stderr | It makes me feel warm inside to know how obviously wrong he is. |
| 20:50.11 | unum | what I care about is that he says our founding fathers opposed using federal money/oversight to run the economy and influence behavior |
| 20:50.20 | unum | which is just an out right LIE!!!!! |
| 20:50.22 | fozzmoo | You guys are useless. |
| 20:50.24 | stderr | (student of history lol) |
| 20:50.27 | unum | and he KNOWS it |
| 20:50.31 | unum | but continues to tell it |
| 20:50.35 | stderr | he's a student of something. |
| 20:50.36 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: feel the love man. This is what america is about - right here. |
| 20:50.58 | unum | either that or he's lieing about having read all those books |
| 20:51.10 | fozzmoo | Oh, he's read all those books... and a lot more. |
| 20:51.11 | JoshH | glenn beck wasn't even a target of left wing ridicule until he moved to fox and adopted the nutjob persona |
| 20:51.28 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: You know we're rational people, and don't you find it interesting we all have slightly different but opposing views of the same thing? |
| 20:51.30 | stderr | fozzmoo: useless? Explain why Glenn Beck republished a public book like Common Sense, written by one of the American founders of progressivism? |
| 20:51.39 | JoshH | he used to just be a guy that people said "oh ya, glenn beck, he's kind of a moron but not too crazy" |
| 20:51.51 | fozzmoo | stderr: Heh. You don't know squat about Thomas Paine, do you. |
| 20:51.52 | JoshH | now, he's replaced rush and hannity as the voice of the nutcases |
| 20:51.53 | stderr | unless he's just trying to turn a buck on the less intelligent members of our society. |
| 20:51.56 | fozzmoo | Do you even know why he wrote Common Sense?! |
| 20:51.59 | stderr | fozzmoo: Actually, I do. |
| 20:52.36 | stderr | he wrote Common Sense as an argument against monarchy, especially a remotely located monarchy controlling rather independent satellite colonies |
| 20:52.50 | stderr | What don't I know about Paine? |
| 20:52.53 | fozzmoo | Sure, he advocated some more federalist ideas later in his life, but Common Sense was about rallying support for the cause of independence. It had nothing to do with the crap he wrote many, many years later! |
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| 20:53.22 | stderr | Sure it did. Independence from a sovereign irrational nation != OMG LIBERTARIAN |
| 20:53.50 | stderr | You can be a progressive and advocate independence. I promise. |
| 20:53.53 | fozzmoo | It makes perfect sense that Beck, who feels our own federal government is beginning to rule our lives in much the same way as the old English monarchy, that he would borrow "Common Sense" |
| 20:54.05 | stderr | You think that analogy stands up? |
| 20:54.20 | fozzmoo | In many ways, yes. |
| 20:54.24 | stderr | excepting for the fact that Glenn Beck "hates" America, and Paine "hated" Britian |
| 20:54.30 | stderr | Really? How so? |
| 20:54.39 | unum | did we stop having elections? |
| 20:54.42 | stderr | Do you think we're paying more taxes now than historically? |
| 20:54.49 | unum | I guess we did elect the son of a former president...... |
| 20:54.51 | JoshH | fozzmoo: the issue is that he feels that about the government at all, especially since he never said much about it as bush was wiretapping whatever he wanted |
| 20:54.56 | stderr | Expound, I'd love to hear it. |
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| 20:55.25 | fozzmoo | JoshH: Heh. You're wrong. Beck was not easy on Bush. Not when he was in office, and definitely not now. |
| 20:55.40 | JoshH | sure, he had some minor complaints every few episodes |
| 20:55.58 | JoshH | but nothing like he is about obama, even though obama is (if you look at it objectively) governing pretty moderately |
| 20:55.59 | fozzmoo | stderr: I suggest you actually read Beck's "Common Sense." If you can't find it in a libary or a bookstore, I have a copy you can borrow. |
| 20:56.10 | stderr | I have Paine's Common Sense |
| 20:56.11 | JoshH | he's just making money off the teabaggers |
| 20:56.14 | stderr | that's all I need. |
| 20:56.19 | fozzmoo | Well, Bush never appointed the types of people Obama has to his cabinet. |
| 20:56.27 | stderr | Oh, of course Beck hated Bush! |
| 20:56.39 | unum | he does now |
| 20:56.48 | unum | started hating him in 2008 I believe |
| 20:56.49 | stderr | Beck twists in the wind, much like anyone who capitalizes off of popular hate. |
| 20:56.50 | stderr | "But these are anything but normal times. I thought about it an awful lot this weekend, and while it takes everything in me to say this, I think the bailout is the right thing do. |
| 20:56.53 | stderr | The âREAL STORYâ is the $700 billion that youâre hearing about now is not only, I believe, necessary, it is also not nearly enough, and all of the weasels in Washington know it." |
| 20:56.55 | fadein | http://books.google.com/books?id=e0oqAAAAYAAJ&dq=paine+common+sense&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=eNrES8CpFZDUM8ejjIcO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false |
| 20:56.57 | stderr | ? |
| 20:57.00 | stderr | Who said that ^ |
| 20:57.01 | fozzmoo | No, Beck turned on Bush after the 2004 election. |
| 20:57.12 | stderr | Who said that quote. |
| 20:57.29 | fozzmoo | After the election, Beck said he felt he had made a mistake in supporting Bush for re-election. |
| 20:57.50 | stderr | I have like, pages of Glenn Beck quotes where he contradicts himself to score points on the current popular opinion |
| 20:57.52 | fozzmoo | There were several factors that caused this. One major one being the 2006 illegal immigration debates. |
| 20:58.42 | JoshH | regardless of whether we agree with beck politically or not, he's definitely nowhere near qualified to give an opinion on net neutrality, and it's sad that his non-techie teabag audience will now have an opinion on net neutrality with no basis in reason, and probably get their way. |
| 20:58.59 | fadein | JoshH: +1 |
| 20:59.00 | fozzmoo | stderr: Yes, I'm sure. Lots of taken-out-of-context quotes. There are plenty of guys living in their parents' basements who listen/watch and compile those on a daily basis. |
| 20:59.10 | stderr | http://vodpod.com/watch/1543946-flashback-glenn-beck-slams-dems-who-didnt-pray-for-bush |
| 20:59.12 | fozzmoo | JoshH: I agree. He's non-technical. |
| 20:59.40 | fozzmoo | And, like I said, it's easy for a non-technical person to see net neutrality as nothing more than government overbearance. |
| 20:59.57 | unum | I think the important part about that, is what makes him qualified to talk about government regulation of any topic? |
| 21:00.08 | stderr | or, someone who scores points off of attributing government overbearance to anything |
| 21:00.12 | stderr | and then shills who eat it up |
| 21:00.27 | unum | decision about government regulation have been made by people who have researched the topic extensively |
| 21:00.43 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: You'll notice in his video he said that "we looked in to it over the weekend". Meaning, he did not form the opinion by himself, and, he formed it in a weekend. |
| 21:00.47 | unum | the fact that you support it in your own industry should make you realize that maybe it's a good idea in other industries |
| 21:01.15 | fozzmoo | I don't know what happened with net neutrality, but with most of the issues Beck talks about, he goes to experts for stuff he doesn't have a firm grasp on. |
| 21:01.22 | JoshH | rsimpkins: i think his writers had net neutrality as a topic, and gave him a 30 second briefing about how it basically means governments telling isp's what to do while he was getting his hair and makeup done in the dressing room. |
| 21:01.34 | stderr | JoshH: don't forget the fake tears |
| 21:01.35 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: You can expect he did the same thing here - but just saw it a different way than you do. |
| 21:01.45 | fozzmoo | JoshH: Unfortunately, I suspect that as well. |
| 21:01.55 | unum | corporate shrills, I'm sure that's who he always goes to |
| 21:02.06 | stderr | Anyway, I'm glad Glenn Beck is around. |
| 21:02.13 | stderr | See ya in 2012 |
| 21:02.31 | fozzmoo | stderr: He's definitely made things interesting for the administration. |
| 21:02.41 | rsimpkins | What we must do, as responsible citizens, is continue to listen and discuss. What is not helpful is closing our minds to differnt points of view. So, I think it is refreshing that we can discuss this topic. |
| 21:02.57 | unum | unfortunately he's destroyed the ability to have discussion about current issues |
| 21:03.17 | stderr | fozzmoo: haha, I guess... |
| 21:03.21 | fozzmoo | unum: Oh really? Glenn Beck? I thouyght he was an idiot who doesn't read? Where does he get that much power? |
| 21:03.21 | stderr | Really, a thorn in the side... |
| 21:03.24 | unum | I shouldn't say completely destroyed it, but has caused many people to remove themselves from the discussion |
| 21:03.34 | rsimpkins | unum: I'd actually disagree with you on that one. I think that he is often a catalyst for discussion. Often on very heated topics. |
| 21:03.38 | stderr | The administration can't seem to get anything DONE! |
| 21:03.45 | stderr | damn that Glenn Beck! He's really making headway! |
| 21:03.51 | stderr | slaps his knee |
| 21:03.51 | fozzmoo | stderr: Thank goodness for that. |
| 21:03.57 | rsimpkins | Nothing wrong with stirring the pot. :) |
| 21:04.00 | stderr | do... you... actually believe that? |
| 21:04.13 | stderr | that he's done anything to affect the administration? |
| 21:04.29 | fozzmoo | stderr: Sure. |
| 21:04.46 | stderr | I mean, I guess he got ACORN completely dissolved and then it turned out to be a hoax. |
| 21:04.49 | stderr | Good for that, I s'pose. |
| 21:05.04 | fozzmoo | Obamacare was supposed to get easy passage, what, before Fall Recess last year? |
| 21:05.06 | stderr | Got a couple people fired in the administration which was ridiculous |
| 21:05.14 | unum | fozzmoo: why do you call it that? |
| 21:05.37 | stderr | because it's easier to have a single person to throw a stone at |
| 21:05.39 | stderr | that, and Beck calls it that |
| 21:05.44 | stderr | and they're *tight* |
| 21:05.46 | fozzmoo | Beck never wanted anyone fired. |
| 21:05.52 | JoshH | fozzmoo: that was before palin fb'd about death panels |
| 21:05.54 | stderr | right, he's just asking questions! |
| 21:06.03 | unum | and beck calls it that because polling done by fox and the rnc showed that people supported the ideas in the bill |
| 21:06.15 | unum | but they didn't trust the federal government to run health care on their own |
| 21:06.22 | fozzmoo | Right. It used to be a big deal that someone who's a self-proclaimed communist was working in the white house. |
| 21:06.38 | unum | so they decided to convince the public that this bill put the federal government completely in charge of health care |
| 21:06.51 | stderr | fozzmoo: ah, yes, of course, especially during the 50s, eh? |
| 21:06.55 | unum | and not talk about what it actually did |
| 21:07.01 | unum | because people liked those things |
| 21:07.49 | fozzmoo | unum: Sure, they frontloaded the legislation with lots of honest-to-God good things that people like. |
| 21:08.18 | unum | fozzmoo: the federal government is not running any new health care systems(like medicare) |
| 21:08.19 | fozzmoo | But then, on the backend, is all the ridiculous spending, the massive growth of the federal government. |
| 21:08.29 | unum | what ridiculous spending? |
| 21:08.36 | unum | most of it actually cut wastes |
| 21:08.44 | stderr | we've had ridiculous spending for a while now |
| 21:08.46 | unum | like with student loans and it medicare and medicaid |
| 21:08.46 | fozzmoo | No, they're just hiring 16k IRS agents to enforce healthcare mandates... |
| 21:08.53 | stderr | Remember, it's how your God Reagan beat the Soviets |
| 21:09.04 | JoshH | fozzmoo: i don't see why growth is inherently a bad thing. the country is bigger, more diverse, and more complicated than it was in 1860 |
| 21:09.05 | stderr | So.. wait! Spending... kills the commies?!?! |
| 21:09.07 | fozzmoo | And they're growing HHS to like 20x its current size. |
| 21:09.12 | stderr | and so forth with ridiculous logical leaps |
| 21:09.13 | JoshH | and of course the world has changed a lot |
| 21:09.33 | unum | but that spending brings health care to 45 million people |
| 21:09.39 | JoshH | what is the real benefit of a tiny, powerless government? which we've never had, btw |
| 21:09.54 | stderr | spending is ok as long it's mostly going towards nukes and keeping our foot on the neck of other foreign countries |
| 21:10.00 | fozzmoo | And that's the most ridiculous part of all of it... anybody, left, right, socialist, anarchist, can tell you that when your economic outlook is dimming, you tighten your belt, cut your spending, hunker down. |
| 21:10.05 | JoshH | in the 40's the government drafted people into war and put citizens into concentration camps |
| 21:10.14 | stderr | fozzmoo: Uh, where did you take Economics? |
| 21:10.14 | unum | fozzmoo: uh no, everyone says spend spend spend |
| 21:10.21 | unum | it's what worked for us in wwII |
| 21:10.34 | fozzmoo | unum: We were AT WAR! |
| 21:10.36 | stderr | There're two popular schools of thought on that. Neither has been significantly proven right. |
| 21:10.43 | unum | and it pulled us out of the depression |
| 21:10.48 | fozzmoo | hah! |
| 21:10.56 | unum | cutting budgets like hoover did, hurt more than it helped |
| 21:10.57 | JoshH | the problem isn't spending per se, it's lowering taxes on the rich and borrowing from china |
| 21:10.57 | stderr | fozzmoo: I presume you were a fan of Reagan. |
| 21:11.04 | unum | all depends on the economists you read |
| 21:11.07 | fozzmoo | We didn't really come out of the depression until after `49. |
| 21:11.27 | fozzmoo | stderr: Yes, Reagan, Friedman, Sowell, Hayek, others. |
| 21:11.35 | stderr | fozzmoo: So how did Reagan beat the Soviets? |
| 21:11.36 | JoshH | i think if conservatives thought the iraq war was so important, they should have wanted their taxes raised to pay for it |
| 21:11.41 | stderr | and ... did he spend money? |
| 21:11.48 | stderr | Was he what you'd call... a "big spender" ? |
| 21:11.56 | fozzmoo | Yes. Militarily. |
| 21:11.57 | stderr | how were the income taxes under him compared to now? |
| 21:12.02 | stderr | ah, so you support military spending. |
| 21:12.06 | stderr | As much as it takes. |
| 21:12.12 | fozzmoo | During the Cold War, it made sense. |
| 21:12.26 | stderr | For some value of "sense". |
| 21:12.46 | stderr | so really, you're not opposed to spending. |
| 21:12.48 | fozzmoo | rsimpkins: Yes. good times. |
| 21:12.59 | stderr | I want to work this out to it's logical conclusion here. |
| 21:13.00 | JoshH | i'm fine with military spending, but i don't think it should be such a giant part of our total that we have hardly any left over for health care and education |
| 21:13.07 | stderr | You support the ballooning of the deficit under Reagan. |
| 21:13.12 | stderr | Presumably you don't support it under Bush. |
| 21:13.21 | fozzmoo | stderr: Did I ever say that I thought Reagan was Jesus Christ?! |
| 21:13.32 | stderr | I'm just wondering where you draw the line. |
| 21:13.36 | stderr | I thought it was at "spending". |
| 21:13.42 | JoshH | when we have 700b for bailouts with a week's worth of debate, we shouldn't act like it's worth overthrowing the government for to spend less than that over 10 years on healthcare |
| 21:13.49 | fozzmoo | I'm disappointed that under Reagan, our debt did increase... substantially. |
| 21:14.01 | fozzmoo | It was undoubtably because of military strategy. |
| 21:14.04 | stderr | that's what happens when you cut taxes and spend money on the military |
| 21:14.08 | stderr | dur. |
| 21:14.21 | fozzmoo | Sure. That's what happens when you cut taxes and keep spending... just like GW Bush. |
| 21:14.37 | stderr | Ah good so at least you don't believe in voodoo economics. |
| 21:14.39 | fozzmoo | That's why I think anything we do with taxes, raise em, cut em, is stupid. |
| 21:14.48 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: This kind of dialog may be really exhausting - but what is going on is really important. Explaining why you believe what you believe, and listening to why others believe something different, is the most important role a citizen has (in my opinion). |
| 21:14.50 | fozzmoo | We need to cut spending. |
| 21:15.12 | stderr | I agree completely |
| 21:15.15 | JoshH | rsimpkins: i agree, but we don't really have any good forums for discourse on a large scale |
| 21:15.16 | stderr | We DO need to cut spending. |
| 21:15.20 | fozzmoo | The government needs to stop providing so many frickin' services. People need to start taking care of themselves more. |
| 21:15.23 | stderr | I think we disagree where the fat is. |
| 21:15.30 | stderr | Well that's ridiculous. |
| 21:15.33 | rsimpkins | JoshH: Thank goodness for an open Internet. ;-) |
| 21:15.33 | stderr | I was raised on welfare. |
| 21:15.41 | stderr | Now my parents are paying more in taxes than anyone in here. |
| 21:15.42 | JoshH | rsimpkins: conservatives don't know how to use it :) |
| 21:15.46 | stderr | Some would say that's a net benefit. |
| 21:15.47 | rsimpkins | lol |
| 21:15.48 | JoshH | except for fozz |
| 21:16.19 | sinuhe | JoshH: The best forum is with friends and family over a beer (or root beer for the LDS and Muslims among us), and at the local municipal and state public hearings. |
| 21:16.20 | fozzmoo | For the record, as I learn more about "conservatives" I'm finding it less and less palatable to label myself as such. |
| 21:16.28 | stderr | I have a serious problem with idiots who act like people who need help just aren't taking care of themselves. |
| 21:16.52 | JoshH | fozzmoo: i understand. i used to consider myself conservative in the 90s |
| 21:16.54 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: I'm sure you've been to places in the US where poverty abounds, and so does goverment welfare. I have, and it was seriously mind blowing. Changed my whole view of what we're doing. |
| 21:16.54 | stderr | Because I've been in poor conditions. I lived in the ghetto here. I've been to Afghanistan and Iraq, and some horrible parts of Turkey. |
| 21:16.55 | fozzmoo | stderr: I have a problem with the federal government being the provider of services for those in need. |
| 21:17.05 | fozzmoo | That's what charities, churches, non-profits, etc. are for. |
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| 21:17.23 | stderr | fozzmoo: I disagree. Common welfare and all that. |
| 21:17.31 | fozzmoo | That's not what it means. |
| 21:17.38 | unum | I think we're all better off if it's handle by government |
| 21:17.51 | stderr | Interesting that isn't what it means when numerous founding fathers expounded after the fact about it meaning EXACTLY that. |
| 21:18.04 | unum | of course in many countries the government taxes you and gives the money to churches to do those things |
| 21:18.06 | stderr | When was the first public hospital in the United States instituted and by whom? |
| 21:18.08 | unum | but I think that's just wrong |
| 21:18.12 | stderr | Quiz time, fozzmoo. |
| 21:18.23 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: What do you think the answer is to a place like Detroit, where the actual unemployment rate is something like 50% - and kids are beat up or made fun of for actually trying hard? |
| 21:18.24 | fozzmoo | Oh yeah, our founding fathers were all looking forward to state welfare. |
| 21:18.40 | JoshH | regarding healthcare, i honestly think it would be great if the government only covered catastrophic things that insurance companies always either deny or drop you for like a hot potato. we don't need universal care to cover prescription tylenol |
| 21:18.43 | fozzmoo | rsimpkins: You let the people in and around Detroit deal with it. |
| 21:18.58 | unum | hamilton even advocated taking federal money to support private businesses |
| 21:19.01 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: Do you know what the other kids call an african american child in Detroit when he does well in school? |
| 21:19.02 | fozzmoo | rsimpkins: I can't imagine that someone a few thousand miles away is going to have any clue. |
| 21:19.27 | fozzmoo | Nor is money that originates a few thousand miles away going to be spent with any degree of accountability. |
| 21:19.30 | unum | JoshH: all this new bill says is that everyone gets private insuaraunce |
| 21:19.33 | JoshH | fozzmoo: why are we all in the same country then? |
| 21:19.44 | JoshH | unum: i know, i just think a single payer solution just for the major stuff would be a good thing to have |
| 21:19.56 | JoshH | not talking about the bill |
| 21:19.58 | stderr | first... public... hospital |
| 21:20.13 | stderr | oh, screw it. 1798. By John Adams. Pure socialist hospital. People were forced to pay into it. |
| 21:20.27 | fozzmoo | Bill O'Reilly apparently had Mitt Romney on yesterday... |
| 21:20.31 | fozzmoo | I'm not a fan of Romney... |
| 21:20.34 | JoshH | i don't mind a lot about insurance, but knowing that if i ever need a bone marrow transplant, there would be people getting paid to find a way to deny me is pretty unsettling |
| 21:20.39 | unum | wow talked about a two face politician |
| 21:20.52 | unum | I think you'd have to go all the way back to jefferson to get someone more two faced |
| 21:20.55 | fozzmoo | but he made a very good point when O'Reilly was pressing him on Romneycare vs Obamacare. |
| 21:21.26 | fozzmoo | He said that what they did in Massachussets was done at the state level and that's exactly where it should be. |
| 21:21.49 | fozzmoo | That Obamacare is mandates, legislation, etc. that addresses healthcare at the federal level. |
| 21:21.58 | fozzmoo | It really should be a states' issue. |
| 21:22.09 | fozzmoo | I agree with Romney on that. |
| 21:22.19 | fozzmoo | If Idaho wants a single-payer system, great. Let them do it. |
| 21:22.29 | unum | I have very mixed feelings about the whole state vs federal thing |
| 21:22.36 | fozzmoo | There are only a few things the federal gov. is supposed to do. |
| 21:22.42 | fozzmoo | Education isn't one of them. |
| 21:22.46 | fozzmoo | Healthcare isn't one of them. |
| 21:22.53 | fozzmoo | Hell, Food safety isn't one of them. |
| 21:23.13 | fozzmoo | But it could be argued under that "general welfare" thing that it is. |
| 21:23.37 | unum | again you're basing this off of your interpetation of what people who lived 200 years ago believed |
| 21:23.40 | unum | and I don't care |
| 21:23.46 | unum | I really don't even care if they believed that |
| 21:23.46 | fozzmoo | unum: We know you don't care. |
| 21:23.56 | unum | I think we're smart enough to decide if this is best for us |
| 21:24.12 | unum | and we should make decision based off of weather we believe it is best |
| 21:24.17 | unum | not what we think they meant |
| 21:24.27 | fozzmoo | unum: That's great. If you want things to be different, call a constitutional convention. Get things changed. |
| 21:24.28 | unum | especially not what glenn beck thinks the ymeant |
| 21:24.39 | fozzmoo | No? You don't want to do that? |
| 21:24.48 | fozzmoo | No, let's just see if we can bend the rules a little more. |
| 21:24.53 | unum | fozzmoo: no need, it's already being interpeted the way I want |
| 21:25.06 | JoshH | fozzmoo: why is that way any better though, really? |
| 21:25.11 | unum | YOU call a constitutional convention |
| 21:25.13 | JoshH | we're not just a few colonies with a fwe thousand people anymore |
| 21:25.27 | unum | interstate commerce is part of everything we do |
| 21:25.36 | JoshH | i agree that the constitution gets bent too far sometimes, mostly when it comes to the bill of rights |
| 21:25.50 | fozzmoo | The more we "reinterpret" the constitution and demean the original intent of the founding fathers, the less honor we will have as a society. |
| 21:25.57 | JoshH | honor? |
| 21:26.02 | JoshH | what is this, feudal japan? |
| 21:26.07 | fozzmoo | Perhaps poor choice of words. |
| 21:26.10 | JoshH | heh ok |
| 21:26.44 | JoshH | that would be cool if we could cut people's heads off with samurai swords for disrespecting the flag |
| 21:26.54 | fozzmoo | We are losing all respect for rules, for law, because if it isn't working out in our favor, we can sue, we can pay someone, etc. |
| 21:27.02 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: You mean, like the time they reinterrpreted the constitution to give slaves rights. Or they time they reinterrpreted it to allow women to vote? |
| 21:27.18 | rsimpkins | Or vise versa - depending on your point of view. |
| 21:27.23 | fozzmoo | rsimpkins: Uh... They didn't reinterpret anything. They passed ammendments. |
| 21:27.26 | JoshH | well, amendments are the right way to go about it |
| 21:27.32 | JoshH | but we can't have an amendment for everything |
| 21:27.34 | sinuhe | fozzmoo: The more we idealize the free thinking founding fathers who would want us to apply our own thinking to solving social problems, the more we demean the original intent of the founding fathers. |
| 21:28.18 | unum | I don't think claiming the interstate commerce clause allows the federal government to contribute to education leads to more law suits |
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| 21:28.32 | unum | that's a very stretched slipperly slope argument |
| 21:28.44 | unum | sinuhe: agreed |
| 21:28.58 | fozzmoo | JoshH: No, we can't, but I think a lot of people today believe we've gone too far "interpretting" that it's okay for the federal government to have so much oversight over the healthcare of the nations citizens (and it's non-citizens). |
| 21:29.20 | JoshH | that's fine if they believe that |
| 21:29.21 | fozzmoo | Gotta run. Time to get the kids from school. Thanks for the chat and the lost productivity. :) |
| 21:29.25 | unum | I don't think most people feel that way though |
| 21:29.35 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: It was productive. thank you for participating. |
| 21:29.36 | JoshH | we can all believe what we want, but |
| 21:29.36 | fozzmoo | unum: Of course you don't. |
| 21:29.49 | unum | most people voted for a president who promised he was going to do it |
| 21:29.50 | JoshH | bah, nevermind |
| 21:29.52 | JoshH | see ya |
| 21:30.01 | unum | and most people agree with the IDEAS in the law |
| 21:30.11 | unum | they just opposed obamacare(what ever that is) |
| 21:30.22 | JoshH | if insurance companies didn't ruin everything in the first place, we wouldn't even need to have this argument |
| 21:30.44 | rsimpkins | It is going to be sooo interesting watching the elections over the next few years. |
| 21:31.03 | unum | JoshH: you can't blame a private business for trying to make money |
| 21:31.11 | unum | that's what we expect when we buy stock in them |
| 21:31.24 | unum | they get sued if they don't make money |
| 21:31.50 | JoshH | we can't blame them for letting people die, after all, they need to stay in business |
| 21:31.51 | unum | the invisible hand doesn't exist, the government has to be involved |
| 21:32.13 | rsimpkins | Anyone want to guess what it will be like in the next presidentaial race? I can imagine some very extreame scenarios. |
| 21:32.17 | unum | if they didn't stay in business how would they pay for the health care of those they didn't let die? |
| 21:32.17 | JoshH | and if we tried to do it ourselves, well, then we'd be soviet russia and have no freedom |
| 21:32.22 | unum | we're all to blame for this |
| 21:32.44 | unum | rsimpkins: I think the republicans will be pawlenty |
| 21:32.49 | JoshH | i wonder what healthcare is like in russia these days |
| 21:32.51 | JoshH | (seriously) |
| 21:32.56 | unum | there are a lot of vocal extremists, especially here |
| 21:33.04 | unum | but the rank and file won't go for them |
| 21:33.11 | unum | JoshH: really really bad |
| 21:33.16 | unum | my fiance is reading a book on it |
| 21:33.27 | JoshH | what kind of bad |
| 21:33.28 | unum | no effective government regulation |
| 21:33.39 | JoshH | no govewrnment regulation? well then shouldn't it be amazing? |
| 21:33.43 | unum | truly free market |
| 21:33.54 | unum | people buying bad drugs |
| 21:34.13 | unum | people using anti biotics in the wrong ways |
| 21:34.28 | JoshH | can the people just choose to buy drugs from somewhere that makes them better and uses that as their selling point? |
| 21:35.08 | JoshH | anyway i'm talking abotu thigns like how hard it is to get cancer treatment or surgery, and how expensive it is |
| 21:35.26 | unum | how would you know they made them better |
| 21:35.28 | unum | ? |
| 21:35.31 | JoshH | and whether the russian mob runs the hospitals |
| 21:35.51 | unum | I think everything's cheap |
| 21:36.06 | unum | go to wikipedia and read about a market for lemons |
| 21:36.11 | unum | that's what's happened |
| 21:36.15 | unum | sure everything's cheap |
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