| 00:00.55 | levi | Bah, no PLUG meeting. I say we dock rsimpkins' PLUG salary. ;) |
| 00:08.48 | sjansen | If we normally give him nothing, does that mean we now owe him something? |
| 00:10.12 | elg | i think that means he owes us |
| 00:11.24 | tensai | and we demand a 100% refund |
| 01:30.55 | Sargun_Screen | There is sun 24 hours a day in summer in alaska, right |
| 01:31.04 | Sargun_Screen | well, if you go high up enough in alaska |
| 01:36.30 | elg | on the summer solistice anyway |
| 01:36.46 | elg | that's what the arctic circle demarcates |
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| 01:57.08 | bmidgley2 | hey, is there a plug meeting? didn't see any mention |
| 01:57.16 | Jayce^ | cancelled |
| 01:58.22 | peno | due to fail |
| 01:58.55 | bmidgley2 | ok thx |
| 01:59.06 | bmidgley2 | ruby conf is tomorrow, that'll be fun |
| 02:13.35 | VoidByte | I'll be moving down to provo soon from slc when and where does plug normally meet? |
| 02:15.20 | Jayce^ | 2nd wednesday.... |
| 02:17.19 | VoidByte | ty |
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| 02:59.15 | levi | VoidByte: What Jayce^ said, and the location has been at Omniture |
| 03:00.23 | VoidByte | thanks levi |
| 03:02.21 | levi | My net connection is being craptacular again. :/ |
| 03:03.29 | VoidByte | Are you on qwest? |
| 03:04.30 | VoidByte | I know a few people who are on qwest, they have been having some major diffculties with their connection the last few days. |
| 03:07.53 | Jayce^ | or XO, with the line cut today |
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| 03:46.48 | VoidByte | I have a 4 layer deep switch statements in quickbasic. FML. Makes me glad I'm starting a new job in 4 days. |
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| 03:51.39 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 04:01.09 | levi | Yow, QuickBasic for work? |
| 04:03.38 | VoidByte | Yea, two of the people that have been hear for ever like it/know it. So it gets used for our scripting language of choice to do data processing. |
| 04:03.49 | VoidByte | here forever* |
| 04:03.59 | levi | Heh. Fun for you. |
| 04:12.20 | levi | What's everyone up to tonight? |
| 04:18.18 | levi | I'm waiting for my ubuntu mythfrontend to finally finish updating. |
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| 16:11.10 | Migs | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qizNQKzatXA |
| 16:15.25 | Migs | shall build a turtle fence |
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| 16:33.16 | tristanbob | yay for autotuning the news |
| 16:33.41 | Migs | this one's pretty good. Their last one sucked. |
| 16:34.02 | Migs | not Autotune #9...just the last autotune video they did |
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| 16:55.54 | wingman | sup utah |
| 16:57.53 | levi | Yo |
| 16:58.28 | Gate | hola |
| 17:03.25 | toofer | hey wingman. |
| 17:03.36 | wingman | sup toofer! |
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| 17:19.33 | thaddeusq | Just read that Merlin Olsen died. |
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| 17:37.55 | sjansen | Forgive me while I express one of my oldest pet peeves: |
| 17:37.57 | sjansen | http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/toddler-dies-mistaking-gun-wii-controller/story?id=10056190 |
| 17:39.05 | sjansen | If you choose to own a gun, handle and store it responsibly. Gun locks and gun safes are what gun control should mean. |
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| 17:39.29 | wingman | wow |
| 17:40.24 | rsimpkins | I wonder what the real story is. |
| 17:43.00 | sjansen | rsimpkins: What makes you think there's anymore to the story? |
| 17:44.00 | Migs | ""The unfortunate thing is that this Nintendo game called Wii..." |
| 17:44.17 | Migs | the Wii has a game called Wii? |
| 17:45.40 | sjansen | I definitely agree. Correcting grammar and technical details should be our focus as we red the article. |
| 17:46.45 | sjansen | Especially something so germane as the difference between a game and a game system, because that really is the heart of the story. |
| 17:47.00 | Jayce^ | sjansen done red that there story |
| 17:54.44 | rsimpkins | sjansen: Because a reporter is in the middle. |
| 18:01.39 | unum | rsimpkins: you think the dad did it? |
| 18:01.56 | unum | I really don't understand what you think the reporter is leaving out in this case |
| 18:02.21 | rsimpkins | I'm just saying, reporters mis-represent facts all the time if it means it will sell more newspapers. |
| 18:02.30 | rsimpkins | So, who knows. |
| 18:03.06 | rsimpkins | Maybe the reporter is a perfect saint. maybe he though "wow, this could be huge" |
| 18:03.20 | rsimpkins | I take every news report with a grain of salt. The more sensational, the more salt. |
| 18:03.34 | unum | rsimpkins: I asked about this specific story |
| 18:04.02 | unum | a 3 year old is dead from a gun shot wound |
| 18:04.07 | unum | I don't think the reporter made that up |
| 18:04.28 | unum | the parents claim the child shot herself by mixing up the game controler with his real gun |
| 18:04.51 | unum | I admit the reporter seems to be taking the parents word for it |
| 18:05.02 | unum | maybe the child never used the controller before |
| 18:05.14 | unum | maybe the parents didn't even own it previous to the shooting |
| 18:05.24 | unum | and just thought it would a convienent excuse |
| 18:06.07 | rsimpkins | " But after taking it out to investigate a possible prowler, Cronberger left it on a table and forgot about it, officials said." |
| 18:06.35 | rsimpkins | "When Cheyenne fired the gun, Ashe said, her mother, Tina Ann Cronberger, 32, was within three feet of her child." |
| 18:06.44 | rsimpkins | Oh, really? |
| 18:06.53 | unum | you think the reporter made that up? |
| 18:07.03 | unum | or you think the police made it up? |
| 18:07.06 | unum | or the parents? |
| 18:07.10 | rsimpkins | I'm saying reporters make stuff up ALL THE TIME! :) |
| 18:07.26 | unum | I'm asking about this article |
| 18:07.33 | unum | I don't care what you think about any other article |
| 18:07.42 | unum | which part of this article did the reporter make up? |
| 18:08.32 | unum | sjansen: everyone person I personally know that has been robbed had a gun |
| 18:08.35 | rsimpkins | Okay, I'm saying generally I don't trust any report to accuratly reflect the facts of a story in all cases. So, therefore, this specific article falls under my general suspicion of that. |
| 18:08.39 | unum | and that's what they took |
| 18:09.11 | unum | rsimpkins: so you don't believe that a 3 year old shot herself? |
| 18:11.20 | unum | actually I'd like to see some numbers on robberies and gunn |
| 18:11.21 | unum | s |
| 18:11.24 | unum | looks |
| 18:14.07 | Gate | unum: The gun is only there to defend yourself if you are there. |
| 18:14.30 | Gate | I know that if I get robbed while I am not home the first things they are taking are my computer and my gunsafe |
| 18:14.43 | unum | yep laptops and gun |
| 18:14.44 | unum | s |
| 18:15.36 | unum | my antidotal evident is not suprisingly wrong |
| 18:15.44 | unum | http://www.alarmsystemreviews.com/what-gets-stolen-in-home-break-ins.html |
| 18:15.55 | unum | huh, home furnishings |
| 18:16.06 | unum | my washer and drier are by far the most valuable thing in my home |
| 18:16.52 | sjansen | rsimpkins: So you are suggesting that the story is a cover up for murder? |
| 18:17.22 | unum | the reporter was clear that he/she was reporting what officials said |
| 18:17.41 | unum | so the question is, did the police say something different than the reporter wrote |
| 18:18.22 | sjansen | I'm not opposed to gun ownership, but statistic show you are significantly more likely to have an accidental shooting or successful suicide in the house, than you are to use it in self defense. Ergo, if you choose to own a gun, treat it with respect at _all_ times. |
| 18:18.26 | unum | which there are sure to be errors, but to suggest that something happen other than a death of a child from a gun is pretty extreme |
| 18:19.53 | unum | oh these are no force entry thefts |
| 18:20.06 | rsimpkins | Guys, all I am suggesting is that perhaps the reporter saw dollar signs and either mis-represented or left out facts... as reporters do all the time. I don't have any evidence to suggest this specific reporter did that. Just general first-hand experience of many other reporters doing it (when i worked in media). |
| 18:23.10 | Gate | reporters take liberties with the truth all the time. it makes good ratings to be more dramatic. |
| 18:23.31 | Gate | unum: suprising |
| 18:24.08 | Gate | sjansen: that is the basis of gun safety: it is always loaded even if it isn't |
| 18:25.17 | sjansen | rsimpkins: Nobody is disagree with the statement "reporters make mistake" just your "I don't believe it" response to this specific article. |
| 18:25.55 | rsimpkins | sjansen: My comment wasn't meant to be an "I don't believe it" statement. More of a "I wonder what the reporter left out" statement. |
| 18:32.17 | rsimpkins | I find it interesting that someone suggested I thought this might be murder, when I gave no such hints. |
| 18:32.24 | rsimpkins | Nor do I think that. |
| 18:32.36 | wingman | its a tragedy, whatever it is |
| 18:32.37 | rsimpkins | Makes me wonder what would make them suggest that? |
| 18:32.46 | wingman | but i think it is suspicious |
| 18:32.46 | unum | 12:40 < rsimpkins> I wonder what the real story is. |
| 18:33.08 | unum | the article said a girl shot her self |
| 18:33.16 | unum | you said that that wasn't the real story |
| 18:33.23 | unum | I didn't know what else you must have meant |
| 18:33.26 | rsimpkins | hehe |
| 18:33.36 | rsimpkins | I'm just giving you a hard time. ;-) |
| 18:34.24 | unum | I've just become really annoyed by people and their mistrust of "main stream media" |
| 18:34.27 | unum | sure they screw stuff |
| 18:34.36 | unum | sure they listen to the wrong people for info |
| 18:34.46 | unum | sure they do what they need to to make money |
| 18:34.55 | unum | but I'm really sick of this conspiracy theory crap |
| 18:35.20 | unum | yes there are those with tv shows, movies and radio shows trying to push an agenda |
| 18:35.27 | rsimpkins | unum: I've worked in media. I've been on the other side of the camera. So, my view is maybe just a bit more grounded in reality. |
| 18:36.01 | rsimpkins | News is a very, very strange biz. |
| 18:36.15 | unum | rsimpkins: it's still insulting to acuse everyone of a conspiracy to commit fraud in everything they do |
| 18:36.24 | rsimpkins | I agree. |
| 18:36.43 | rsimpkins | Which is why I'm only insulting those involved in creating the news. ;-) |
| 18:37.52 | unum | rsimpkins: who'd you work for? |
| 18:38.11 | rsimpkins | unum: We were a contract news van that worked for KSL/KUTV, whoever would hire us. |
| 18:38.32 | rsimpkins | We'd go collect ENG footage, do uplinks, etc. |
| 18:38.54 | rsimpkins | It was super interesting. |
| 18:39.28 | rsimpkins | I can remember one instance that a KSL producer was screaming at the top of his lungs because we presented pictures that were 'too realistic' |
| 18:39.52 | rsimpkins | Meaning - too boring. |
| 18:40.02 | rsimpkins | Which, I can totally understand. |
| 18:40.35 | rsimpkins | I mean, when you want to make 6 inches of water sell commercials, it needs to look scary. |
| 18:41.53 | unum | certainly there's sensationlism, what I don't understand is why you feel the need to attack every article, even when you can't point to any being there |
| 18:42.56 | thaddeusq | unum: I didn't see it as rsimpkins "attacking" the article as simply questioning what more there is to the story? |
| 18:43.21 | thaddeusq | I see it as "God gave everyone a brain and He expects that we actually use them!" |
| 18:43.44 | rsimpkins | unum: Maybe the news organization you work for has higher ethical standards than the many I've experienced. |
| 18:44.34 | rsimpkins | I do believe their are ethical reporters out there. |
| 18:44.44 | rsimpkins | I would guess they are also starving. |
| 18:45.14 | rsimpkins | But I'm an optimist. I am sure there are great news organizations in the world. |
| 18:45.35 | unum | I think it's worthless to sit around and say "they're lying" with out being able to say what they are lying about |
| 18:45.38 | rsimpkins | Like Al Jazeera |
| 18:45.52 | wingman | its worthless to do 99% of things we do |
| 18:46.35 | wingman | i think its worthless to complain about how worthless something is! :) |
| 18:46.41 | unum | I work at a company where most of the employees think what is happening is unethical and deceptive |
| 18:46.45 | unum | wingman: good point |
| 18:46.47 | unum | :) |
| 18:47.10 | wingman | unum: i worked at a place where people did unethical things...but on a scale of 1 to 100...it was probably a 5... |
| 18:47.24 | wingman | thats an arbitrary number...but maybe you get what i mean |
| 18:47.35 | eightyeight | unum: how is piracy there? still rampant as ever? |
| 18:47.38 | unum | employees think what we do is unethical and deceptive but that's because they're ignorant |
| 18:47.48 | unum | eightyeight: yes that part is unethical |
| 18:47.49 | wingman | what do you do? |
| 18:48.06 | eightyeight | unum: that always drove me nuts, on many levels |
| 18:48.06 | unum | but most employees don't know about that |
| 18:48.25 | unum | we run call centers for public opinion polls |
| 18:48.26 | eightyeight | unum: i doubt that. i would give them more credit than that. |
| 18:48.49 | wingman | i think every job i had i can think of something unethical that was done...either piracy or stealing money from the till |
| 18:48.49 | unum | eightyeight: most employees are interviewers |
| 18:49.03 | eightyeight | unum: i mean in the slc office |
| 18:49.10 | unum | eightyeight: I didn't |
| 18:49.43 | eightyeight | unum: i don't know what software they use in the call centers. don't they just use dummy terminals? |
| 18:50.19 | unum | yep |
| 18:50.30 | eightyeight | so, how could they be pirating software? |
| 18:50.37 | unum | that's my point |
| 18:51.11 | eightyeight | i think there's a communication gap somewhere |
| 18:52.43 | unum | I said most employees don't know about the software piracy, you are saying most who use pirated software know it's pirated |
| 18:52.53 | eightyeight | ahh |
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| 18:53.28 | eightyeight | i read "most employees don't know about that" as "most employees don't know they're pirating software" |
| 18:53.40 | eightyeight | gap filled |
| 18:54.37 | unum | the employees are not pirating software |
| 18:54.40 | unum | atleast not anymore |
| 18:55.18 | eightyeight | that was my initial question. when i was there, it was like a disease. ultraedit, mssql, wordperfect... |
| 18:56.22 | unum | my favorite was when jamie told us we should respect proprietary software |
| 18:56.52 | eightyeight | if microsoft came in to do a true-up while i was there, that company would be put cease operations faster than you could blink |
| 18:57.13 | eightyeight | yeah. that was an interesting talk |
| 18:57.57 | eightyeight | although, i've become less of a gnu fanboy since then, and i understand why people choose it |
| 18:58.12 | eightyeight | and i won't argue with them |
| 19:27.16 | sjansen | http://blog.timesunion.com/tablehopping/13889/assemblyman-seeking-to-ban-all-salt-in-restaurant-cooking/ |
| 19:27.29 | sjansen | New York: Proving that California doesn't have a monopoly on stupid. |
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| 19:44.26 | wingman | "In a deeply misguided gesture that is also an abuse of the legislative process" |
| 19:44.44 | wingman | they need to frame this above every policital story |
| 19:46.28 | sjansen | Because government can only cause harm and anything other than repealing a law is a clear abuse of the legislative process. |
| 19:47.32 | wingman | s/every/most |
| 19:56.07 | unum | sjansen was being sarcastic |
| 19:56.28 | unum | maybe not |
| 19:57.49 | unum | remember we have a guy who thinks stores should be mandated by law to say merry christmas in decemeber |
| 19:57.59 | unum | no one has a monopoly on stupid |
| 19:59.45 | sjansen | I was being sarcastic in that I hoped wingman didn't actually believe what he was stating, I was serious in pointing out to wingman what he was implying. |
| 20:00.59 | wingman | but i couldnt be sarcastic of course |
| 20:01.17 | wingman | why even bother |
| 20:01.23 | sjansen | The older I get, the more I get sick of listening to everyone's cynicism and pessimism. Since I know I won't change anything, I resort to sarcastic bomb throwing. |
| 20:01.41 | wingman | i dont even take it that serious |
| 20:01.49 | wingman | comes and goes |
| 20:01.51 | wingman | all in waves |
| 20:01.53 | unum | when do canidates start registering |
| 20:02.13 | unum | tomorrow |
| 20:02.55 | wingman | one day your sick of cyncicism, the next day your a cynic in your own way in the eyes of other people |
| 20:03.03 | wingman | and so on |
| 20:04.16 | unum | it'll be interesting to watch the tea partiers |
| 20:04.39 | sjansen | To be sure, American culture has taught me to throw out cynical comments without thinking, but if you pressed me on them you'd usually discover I don't believe them. I'm trying to stop saying things I don't believe. |
| 20:05.14 | wingman | oh, american culture. i thought it was just life. |
| 20:05.40 | wingman | thats fine, im certainly not that scholarly |
| 20:06.09 | unum | I get sick of listening to people complain who have no intent of doing anything about it |
| 20:06.31 | wingman | thats because you do a lot of listening :) |
| 20:06.34 | unum | if you are expressing attitudes on things you are trying to change that's one thing |
| 20:06.37 | wingman | but i fell you |
| 20:06.50 | wingman | *feel |
| 20:07.04 | unum | but if you are just going to sit in a corner and whine about how everyone else is evil, you're going to get on my nerves |
| 20:07.25 | wingman | unum: me? i didnt mean to come across that way |
| 20:08.23 | unum | " Since I know I won't change " |
| 20:08.24 | unum | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:08.31 | wingman | oh |
| 20:09.09 | wingman | i cant read that deep into things any more |
| 20:09.21 | wingman | i thought he was mocking me, or maybe himself |
| 20:09.29 | wingman | its all good |
| 20:09.58 | unum | oh oops |
| 20:10.01 | unum | I'm confused |
| 20:10.19 | unum | I'm reading the wrong person's stuff |
| 20:10.41 | unum | but my remarks were meant generally not towards you |
| 20:10.45 | keldwud | I say things I don't believe all the time |
| 20:11.10 | keldwud | things like, "it makes baby jesus cry when boys hold hands together" |
| 20:11.48 | unum | sometimes I forget who's who and I'm not sure if it's sarcasm |
| 20:13.13 | wingman | yeah, its all good. its the internet, sometimes sarcasm doesnt fly well. i dont take it too serious. i never mean harm |
| 20:13.17 | wingman | usually ;) |
| 20:13.50 | toofer | I was just gonna' say I don't mean harm unless I actually do. :) |
| 20:14.01 | wingman | there you go! |
| 20:14.07 | unum | I only mean harm to eightyeight |
| 20:14.16 | sjansen | Using sarcasm to attack someone is more than simple whining, it's my approach to doing something about the situation. |
| 20:14.30 | wingman | no we're talking |
| 20:14.39 | wingman | or "now we're talking" |
| 20:14.53 | sjansen | Instead of openly confronting them and telling them they're wrong, I prefer to snipe from a distance. |
| 20:14.58 | unum | sjansen: I accidently quoted you there. I was reffering more to people I know who refuse to particapate even in conversations |
| 20:15.19 | unum | I know teacher who are unhappy with the education system but when I try to get them to talk to their state rep..... |
| 20:15.27 | sjansen | That way instead of questioning their opinion, they can recommit themselves more fully without any messy thinking. |
| 20:15.31 | wingman | sjansen: thats fine, but i guess i thought i deeply believed what i meant and that your response could "help" me |
| 20:15.42 | wingman | or you thought, or whatever |
| 20:15.53 | wingman | but yes, i was joking |
| 20:16.18 | unum | wingman: there are people in here who sincerely believe the government can do nothing right |
| 20:16.20 | wingman | govt is good for things |
| 20:16.27 | toofer | raises hand |
| 20:16.27 | unum | then there are us pinko commies |
| 20:17.04 | unum | who rather have the government check my food for e. coli then do it ourselves |
| 20:17.10 | unum | but we're just lazy anti-christs |
| 20:17.18 | sjansen | At heart, I'm a humanitarian. My service to society is my sarcasm. |
| 20:17.25 | unum | as I was informed by a member of my elders quorum |
| 20:17.36 | wingman | i just hate dumb sh*t (pardon me) |
| 20:17.52 | wingman | and stupid laws |
| 20:18.14 | unum | next time I fly I'm going to check the plane mechanics myself who needs the faa |
| 20:18.24 | fozzmoo1 | looks around, rolls his eyes, and goes back to preparing his lecture for tonight's class |
| 20:18.48 | RyanE | fozzmoo1: class? |
| 20:18.57 | sjansen | Life becomes much less complicated once you accept that we're all hypocrites; the key is being honest with yourself about it. |
| 20:18.58 | unum | modern anarchy and you |
| 20:19.07 | unum | sjansen: good point |
| 20:19.12 | fozzmoo1 | RyanE: I'm teaching a network security class this semester for WSU. |
| 20:19.22 | RyanE | groovy. |
| 20:20.07 | sjansen | *sigh* The problem with self-referential logic is establishing the base case. |
| 20:20.26 | Migs | nice |
| 20:20.32 | Migs | do you have a bio page? |
| 20:20.56 | wingman | fozzmoo: what topics? |
| 20:21.13 | wingman | tools and such? |
| 20:21.16 | fozzmoo | wingman: Well, I was *supposed* to talk about wireless security this week. |
| 20:21.21 | maquis | whistles |
| 20:21.27 | fozzmoo | But I kind of wrapped it all up on Tuesday. |
| 20:21.42 | RyanE | you just went in, and said: "No Such Thing", and... blammo! Done. |
| 20:21.52 | fozzmoo | I think tonight, we'll probably talk about netcat and then maybe do some kismetting and netcatting for fun. |
| 20:22.06 | wingman | cool |
| 20:22.11 | RyanE | you should setup a wep-protected network, and give out prizes for the first one in. |
| 20:22.15 | maquis | my friend has been writing a series of php tutorials on her blog... i find them interesting because they are geared toward people who aren't programmers (things like "this is an if statement. here's how you use it") |
| 20:22.20 | fozzmoo | RyanE: Yeah, I thought about that. |
| 20:22.46 | fozzmoo | maquis: I hope your friend writes something about MVC. It would do a great service to the world of up-and-coming PHP "programmers" |
| 20:22.54 | unum | *sigh* salmiyuck.com hasn't been updated |
| 20:22.54 | RyanE | and extra credit if they spoof an email from you to you. |
| 20:22.55 | maquis | for today's post, she included a hangman game... and i just found a bug in it |
| 20:23.06 | maquis | fozzmoo: it's not geared toward people wanting to become programmers, actually |
| 20:23.21 | fozzmoo | maquis: That's the problem with a big chunk of people writing PHP, tho. :) |
| 20:23.23 | maquis | it's for writers who use wordpress for their blogs and want to understand what's happening |
| 20:23.27 | maquis | fozzmoo: true |
| 20:25.26 | unum | what if they want to do this: http://farmville.unum5.org |
| 20:25.42 | unum | I have people in my html classes ask about php classes |
| 20:25.52 | unum | I always just tell them to look up uphpu |
| 20:26.10 | Migs | man |
| 20:26.16 | Migs | I wanna come to your class, fozzmoo |
| 20:26.46 | fozzmoo | :) |
| 20:26.52 | unum | I should teach a class on wireless security at the library |
| 20:26.53 | RyanE | me too, but just to taunt. |
| 20:26.56 | unum | I bet a bunch of people would come |
| 20:27.02 | unum | though I'd have to learn it first..... |
| 20:27.39 | maquis | fozzmoo: i actually asked her how far she was planning on going, and she said she's going to take a break now that she's finished conditionals and loops... :) |
| 20:28.03 | fozzmoo | The class has been fun and challenging because there's a handful of guys in the class that are just taking the the class to get their degrees. they already have jobs in the industry. They usually know a few things I don't know. |
| 20:28.04 | sjansen | maquis: Doesn't even have to be MVC. Just something about separating business and presentation logic instead of writing tag & code spaghetti. |
| 20:28.36 | fozzmoo | On Tuesday, one guy explained to me (and the whole class) how the 802.11<X> designation refers to the IEEE committee that worked on it. |
| 20:28.38 | RyanE | maquis: That's what I feel like today. I need to take a break. I've *written* a loop or two and a conditional today, so I'm good. |
| 20:28.40 | wingman | fozzmoo: what degree is this part of? |
| 20:28.41 | maquis | true... i'll suggest it... |
| 20:28.50 | fozzmoo | I never really thought about it- but it makes sense. |
| 20:28.55 | fozzmoo | wingman: Computer science. |
| 20:29.06 | wingman | cool |
| 20:29.34 | wingman | i had a few security classes in school. somf of my teachers were not that great |
| 20:29.37 | fozzmoo | There are 3 or 4 guys running Ubuntu on their laptops. I need to get them coming to UTOSC. |
| 20:30.00 | wingman | but thats because i went to ITT tech |
| 20:30.36 | unum | I've got a coworker going there |
| 20:30.47 | wingman | does he/she like it? |
| 20:30.54 | unum | I think he likes it ok |
| 20:31.00 | fozzmoo | I wish I could go back to school now. |
| 20:31.12 | unum | I don't ever want to go back to school |
| 20:31.13 | fozzmoo | Esp. being that I'm not seeing much work these days. |
| 20:31.17 | unum | I loathe homework |
| 20:31.18 | wingman | it was great for the first 2 years, i learned so much...but the last two just kind of lagged |
| 20:31.30 | unum | I thought it was only a two year program |
| 20:31.33 | wingman | if school was free i would go back |
| 20:31.42 | unum | right now it can be :) |
| 20:31.56 | fozzmoo | wingman: If school was free, the quality of education would suck. |
| 20:32.00 | unum | there's a lot of federal grants avialiable |
| 20:32.05 | unum | fozzmoo: as always, I disagree |
| 20:32.11 | wingman | i work at the U so I get a discount. but i still have student loans to pay |
| 20:32.14 | fozzmoo | unum: That's your job. |
| 20:32.33 | fozzmoo | unum: GOOD JOB! |
| 20:32.39 | unum | high price!=good education |
| 20:32.39 | fozzmoo | pats unum's head. |
| 20:32.49 | unum | low price(free)!=bad education |
| 20:32.53 | Migs | I love being back in school |
| 20:32.58 | unum | speaking in terms of what the student has to pay |
| 20:33.00 | Migs | I only started again 2 months ago, but it's awesome |
| 20:33.05 | unum | Migs: aren't you working on a doctorate? |
| 20:33.08 | wingman | where do you go? |
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| 20:37.54 | Migs | no, just my masters |
| 20:37.57 | Migs | Boise State |
| 20:38.21 | Migs | although I'm kind of thinking I want to go on to a PhD after this. I'd have to slightly alter my masters degree though. |
| 20:39.11 | Migs | I'm doing it online |
| 20:39.47 | fozzmoo | unum: For the record, I'm not in support of expensive education... I think secondary education is way overpriced right now. |
| 20:40.30 | fozzmoo | A lot of prominent univerisities have fiscal responsibility problems and screw their student body as a result. |
| 20:41.23 | fozzmoo | I'm actually a lot more liberal when it comes to education than you might think. |
| 20:42.13 | fozzmoo | I think we might want to consider full scholarships for every kid coming out of high school and going to college, but those kids would have to keep their grades up to maintain those scholarships. |
| 20:42.34 | JoshH | agreed |
| 20:42.39 | Migs | no I disagree entirely |
| 20:42.44 | fozzmoo | The problem with that, however, is that teachers, departments, colleges might go real easy on freshment. :) |
| 20:42.48 | Migs | that's a total throwaway of money if they lose their scholarship and just drop out |
| 20:42.50 | fozzmoo | s/ment/men/ |
| 20:42.56 | JoshH | i'm all for spending lots of public money on education, but it only makes sense to for the people who want it (who keep their grades up) |
| 20:43.06 | JoshH | when people want an education and can't afford one, it's bad |
| 20:43.08 | Migs | which probably MOST kids will do |
| 20:43.25 | Migs | they'll think "oh, I have a free scholarship" and then they'll just goof off in college like they did in high school |
| 20:43.29 | fozzmoo | Milton Friedman, however, has written a lot about how public money for education is a bad thing. |
| 20:43.49 | JoshH | it doesn't seem too bad for norway |
| 20:43.54 | Migs | if you're going to make it free, you have to come up with a way that it's 100% always free. |
| 20:44.04 | Migs | Norway isn't America |
| 20:44.12 | Migs | and I don't believe Norway does exactly what you're describing |
| 20:44.17 | fozzmoo | Quote from Friedman: When we first started writing about higher education, we had a good deal of sympathy for the (justification that public subsidies was an investment in future productivity and economic growth of society). We no longer do. In the interim we have tried to induce the people who make this argument to be specific about the alleged social benefits. The answer is almost always simply bad |
| 20:44.18 | fozzmoo | economics. We are told that the nation benefits by having more highly trained people, that investment in providing such skills is essential for economic growth, that more trained people raise the productivity for the rest of us. These statements are correct. But none is a valid reason for subsidizing higher education. Each statement would be equally correct if made about physical capital (i.e., machines, |
| 20:44.20 | fozzmoo | factory buildings, etc.), yet hardly anyone would conclude that tax money should be used to subsidize the capital investment of General Motors or General Electric. |
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| 20:45.11 | fozzmoo | This was written in the 1970s... so the last sentence is quite ironic. :) |
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| 20:47.06 | fozzmoo | http://failblog.org/2010/03/11/animal-lover-fail/ |
| 20:47.14 | sjansen | I dunno. Without thinking about it too much, my first reaction is that it isn't fair to compare a person to a corporation. Such thinking might have been a clever legeal shortcut, but it's done more harm than good. |
| 20:51.29 | fozzmoo | sjansen: That failblog is especially for you. ;-) |
| 20:52.28 | maquis | wonders if it's a bad thing if she now considers 5$ expensive for a book |
| 20:52.29 | sjansen | lol |
| 20:52.39 | sjansen | (I don't often lol.) |
| 20:52.57 | maquis | i think hard before even paying 2$ for a book... too many free options |
| 20:53.35 | wingman | libraries! |
| 20:53.46 | fozzmoo | Other people's bookcases! |
| 20:53.50 | wingman | pdfs! |
| 20:53.54 | maquis | free kindle books |
| 20:53.54 | fozzmoo | Doctor's offices! |
| 20:54.04 | maquis | i've got > 600 books waiting to be read right now |
| 20:54.23 | fozzmoo | wishes he had time to read more. |
| 20:54.38 | wingman | wow. i will never that meany in a lifetime. im like a 3-5 book a year guy |
| 20:54.55 | wingman | i wish i had more time too. i usually enjoy the ones i read |
| 20:54.59 | fozzmoo | Actually, I realize that was a stupid thing to say. If I disconnected from the Web, I could read a couple books a day. |
| 20:55.14 | wingman | but at work, it makes you look busy |
| 20:55.18 | fungus | ~audiobooks++ |
| 20:55.22 | wingman | ah |
| 20:55.24 | wingman | great idea |
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| 20:55.55 | wingman | one thing about audio books is that i can never tell when i started to drift off |
| 20:56.18 | wingman | with a physical book, its usually easier to spot the paragraph where i went awol |
| 20:56.30 | fozzmoo | wingman: I'm sure the next ipod nano will have kind of proprietary attention drift detection in it. |
| 20:56.39 | wingman | i would buy that |
| 20:57.08 | fozzmoo | Could deliver an electric shock to the inside of your ears when you're not paying enough attention. |
| 20:57.20 | wingman | i recently read liberty and tyranny via audiobook |
| 20:57.23 | fozzmoo | All the ADDs in the world would have smoke coming out fo their ears. |
| 20:57.35 | fozzmoo | wingman: Oh yeah? Thomas Sowell? |
| 20:57.47 | wingman | mark levin |
| 20:57.52 | fozzmoo | oh right. |
| 20:57.58 | fozzmoo | Liked it? |
| 20:58.18 | wingman | yeah, i liked it. most of it |
| 20:58.48 | fozzmoo | It wasn't Sowell... it was Williams: Liberty versus the Tyranny of Socialism: Controversial Essays |
| 20:58.49 | unum | I couldn't buy any of my books for $5 |
| 20:58.57 | unum | I'm still a paper guy |
| 20:58.58 | fozzmoo | I wasn't impressed. |
| 20:59.03 | fozzmoo | Sowell is much better. |
| 20:59.07 | unum | I even have subscription to the newspaper |
| 20:59.16 | wingman | fozzmoo: you didnt like the Levin book? |
| 20:59.19 | fozzmoo | unum: You newspaper subscribers are weird. |
| 20:59.34 | fozzmoo | wingman: I haven't read the Levin book, I was referring to the Walter E. Williams book with a similar title. |
| 20:59.36 | wingman | i will have to check out the Sowell book |
| 20:59.40 | wingman | oh, i see |
| 20:59.40 | unum | my girlfriend has a collection of anti-federalists papers I should borrow it |
| 20:59.47 | unum | haven't ever read them |
| 21:00.15 | maquis | unum: they're public domain.... |
| 21:00.15 | fozzmoo | wingman: http://fozzolog.fozzilinymoo.org/politics/2009/03/book-review-applied-economics-thinking-beyond-stage-one-by-thomas-sowell.html |
| 21:00.32 | wingman | and then i read the physical book of "into thin air" which i loved |
| 21:00.40 | wingman | fozzmoo: thx |
| 21:00.47 | fozzmoo | maquis: But then he'd have to print them out... on newspaper... and have someone throw them to his doorstep in an orange plastic bag. |
| 21:00.47 | unum | maquis: I don't like to read from a computer |
| 21:01.07 | unum | rather I should say I spend 8 hours a day at a computer, I like not looking at a screen sometimes |
| 21:01.08 | maquis | unum: you need to look into one of the e-ink readers |
| 21:01.10 | wingman | so 2 books this year, im on a roll |
| 21:01.19 | unum | I don't know if I would like one of those |
| 21:01.24 | maquis | they don't have backlight |
| 21:01.43 | unum | but not everything I want to read is public domain |
| 21:01.45 | maquis | unum: go to your local b&n, check out the screen for the nook. then, ignore the slow refresh and the annoying lcd down at the bottom |
| 21:01.52 | wingman | i like to mark books, im ocd that way |
| 21:01.59 | fozzmoo | wingman: Me too. |
| 21:02.01 | maquis | kindle doesn't have the lcd, and the refresh is faster |
| 21:02.14 | wingman | fold pages, underline, etc |
| 21:02.14 | maquis | wingman: i can highlight and write notes in my kindle books |
| 21:02.32 | wingman | maquis: oh cool, and saves it? thats interesting |
| 21:02.41 | maquis | unum: lots of good indie authors.... and plenty of normal books too |
| 21:03.11 | maquis | wingman: yeah... it saves it on the device, and you can have it saved on amazon's servers for books you purchased through amazon (won't save any non-amazon purchased books notes or anything, though) |
| 21:03.16 | wingman | i would like a reader, definitely helps when you move. i swear i have boxes of books |
| 21:03.29 | maquis | wingman: i have the kindle and i love it |
| 21:03.36 | unum | I do have boxes of books |
| 21:03.40 | maquis | (bias alert: i used to work for amazon, and my hubby still does) |
| 21:03.45 | fozzmoo | Maybe when something like the Kindle DX gets down under $250 or so... I'll jump on it. |
| 21:04.10 | wingman | does the kindle read normal pdfs? |
| 21:04.26 | maquis | wingman: yeah... but you can't zoom |
| 21:04.29 | wingman | i have tons of pdf papers i would like to throw on a reader |
| 21:04.34 | wingman | oh, that sucks |
| 21:04.35 | maquis | so, if you don't have the dx, it's pretty painful |
| 21:04.42 | maquis | but, amazon will convert them for free |
| 21:04.49 | maquis | or you can use calibre to convert them yourself |
| 21:04.53 | wingman | oh well thats cool |
| 21:04.59 | wingman | so DX is the top model? |
| 21:05.01 | fozzmoo | maybe someday they'll implement a zoom feature. |
| 21:05.03 | maquis | long as it doesn't have multiple columns, it works pretty well |
| 21:05.07 | sjansen | Heretics! Defilers of books! May you all get papercuts under your fingernails! |
| 21:05.08 | fozzmoo | DX is the 'big one' |
| 21:05.11 | maquis | wingman: DX is the bigger version of the K2 |
| 21:05.12 | jsmith | is still waiting for the next gen of e-readers |
| 21:05.12 | wingman | i see |
| 21:05.24 | maquis | I have the K2 |
| 21:05.32 | wingman | jsmith: i hear ya |
| 21:05.46 | jsmith | Then again, if someone threw me a K2 for free, I wouldn't turn it down |
| 21:05.49 | sjansen | wingman: You don't have a lot of books until you start measure them in pounds. |
| 21:05.50 | maquis | both the K2 and the DX, you can turn sideways into landscape mode. that makes pdfs a bit more readable |
| 21:05.55 | wingman | my dad has one, i will have to ask him more about it. i think its a sony...not sure |
| 21:06.18 | wingman | sjansen: i have pounds of books :) |
| 21:06.36 | wingman | but im sure that doesnt compare to most of you |
| 21:07.06 | wingman | i have mostly computer, conspiracy related books. not many novels and such |
| 21:10.16 | sjansen | Computer books add up quickly. |
| 21:10.53 | wingman | yep |
| 21:10.56 | sjansen | I have significantly more fiction paper backs, but by weight my other books blow them away. |
| 21:11.00 | Migs | fozzmoo: There's a ton of broken links on your site |
| 21:11.07 | Migs | fozilinymoo.org that is |
| 21:11.12 | Migs | *zz |
| 21:11.52 | wingman | i feel bad for some of these rural libraries in utah. they get infected with virus or worm and do not have resources to handle it |
| 21:12.22 | wingman | dozens of computers behind a T1 or something, completely pegged |
| 21:13.00 | wingman | or maybe some installed a torrent client |
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| 21:25.18 | fungus_ | kdkdkdkdkdkdls~. |
| 21:25.22 | fungus_ | ~>~. |
| 21:26.01 | goozbach | fungus_: <enter><tilde><period> |
| 21:26.57 | fungus | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:26.59 | fungus | lol |
| 21:29.30 | jsmith | goozbach: That's a good one! |
| 21:33.28 | goozbach | it'd have been funnier if it had been followed by a "fungus has been disconnectd(ping timeout)" |
| 21:34.37 | jsmith | No kidding... |
| 21:34.49 | elg | hmm. i can't seem to get any core dumps on my mac |
| 21:35.01 | elg | ulimit -a shows that ulimit -c unlimited seems to have worked |
| 21:35.08 | tensai | feels bad about the time he told someone the solution was ctrl-alt-backspace |
| 21:35.25 | elg | but it never says dumping core and if it does dump core I can't see where it puts them. Not in /cores - which doesn't exist. not in the local directory |
| 21:35.54 | jsmith | Did you look in /tmp? |
| 21:36.41 | elg | not there |
| 21:36.59 | elg | rumor has it it's supposed to be in /cores. but that doesn't even exist |
| 21:37.30 | tensai | did you try creating it? |
| 21:37.39 | jsmith | elg: Did you try running "unlimit coredumpsize"? |
| 21:37.50 | jsmith | And yes, that really is "unlimit" and not "ulimit" |
| 21:38.03 | tensai | jsmith: you meant ulimit, right? |
| 21:38.11 | elg | $ unlimit coredumpsize |
| 21:38.12 | elg | bash: unlimit: command not found |
| 21:38.18 | elg | wonders what planet jsmith is on |
| 21:38.24 | elg | not planet UNIX apparently :) |
| 21:38.36 | jsmith | elg: http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20030528135219694 |
| 21:38.42 | jsmith | elg: That's where I got the idea |
| 21:38.54 | elg | i get a 404 on that site |
| 21:39.11 | elg | and have been for weeks. I thought it disappeared. you still see it? |
| 21:39.25 | tensai | elg: works for me |
| 21:39.32 | elg | (macosxhints.com, not that particular article) |
| 21:40.10 | tensai | both work fine |
| 21:40.11 | jsmith | elg: Worksforme |
| 21:40.38 | elg | most bizarre |
| 21:40.46 | tensai | elg: to help you debug this 404 error we're going to need you to get a core dump of your browser |
| 21:41.14 | goozbach | elg: reboot! |
| 21:44.26 | elg | ah, I had to create and chmod +t |
| 21:44.26 | jsmith | elg: Try enabling core files in /etc/launchd.conf? |
| 21:44.26 | jsmith | elg: Ah, you got it |
| 21:44.26 | elg | i still can't get to macosxhints.com, but whatev |
| 21:53.25 | maquis | to install to disk or not to install to disk |
| 21:53.33 | goozbach | to disk |
| 21:53.40 | maquis | goozbach: really? |
| 21:53.48 | goozbach | *shrug* |
| 21:53.52 | maquis | you think i should run chromium as the primary os on my laptop? |
| 21:54.03 | Migs | Absolutely. |
| 21:54.04 | maquis | s/primary/only/g |
| 21:54.11 | Migs | EVERYONE should run chromium as the only os |
| 21:54.16 | goozbach | if you wants to |
| 21:54.58 | maquis | i suppose i have nothing to lose at the current moment |
| 21:55.08 | maquis | it's running a < 1 week old install of ubuntu |
| 21:55.35 | maquis | which i only created in order to build the usb image and get it working :) |
| 21:56.29 | goozbach | put it on a ZFS share.. oh wait... you can't :) |
| 22:03.38 | tensai | I tried chromium in a VM. meh. |
| 22:03.52 | tensai | I did like ubuntu netbook remix |
| 22:03.56 | levi | Huh, anyone still in Utah familiar with this place? http://thetransistor.com/ |
| 22:06.29 | Migs | don't make it down to Provo that often |
| 22:06.48 | tensai | looks pretty cool |
| 22:06.54 | Jayce^ | levi: sshaw was talking baout it when we did the arduino night at plug |
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| 22:12.54 | keldwud | I really liked jolicloud |
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| 22:35.11 | levi | $90/mo membership seems pretty steep, though. |
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| 22:36.21 | keldwud | 90 bucks per month is a cable bill or a cell phone bill or car insurance |
| 22:36.47 | levi | Well, that's why I don't have a cable bill or cell phone bill. |
| 22:36.54 | keldwud | I don't have any of those either :) |
| 22:39.31 | levi | Could be worth it if they've got a bunch of cool tools/equipment. |
| 22:40.04 | levi | And you really want to work on a lot of electronics projects. |
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| 22:41.53 | levi | The minimalist Arduino kits look cool, though. |
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| 22:46.12 | sjansen | sshaw is in one of thos pictures, so I assume he's familiar. |
| 22:47.01 | levi | At least the weekly Arduino night is free and open to the public. |
| 22:48.19 | sjansen | Suddenly I wish I lived closer to Provo again. |
| 22:49.10 | levi | Lehi isn't terribly close to anything, but it's also not terribly far from much that's in Salt Lake or Utah valleys. |
| 22:49.57 | levi | I imagine an influx of members might reduce membership cost, too. |
| 23:04.12 | *** join/#utah Demo (~Demo@c-174-52-33-117.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 23:10.47 | keldwud | arduino night is in provo? |
| 23:11.15 | keldwud | if so, I might have to check out the weekly night |