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| 00:41.06 | elg | "[freenode-info] channel trolls and no channel staff around to help? please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp" |
| 00:41.16 | elg | I wonder if they can help us with our sjansen problem |
| 00:41.26 | elg | ~lart sjansen |
| 00:41.26 | ibot | cats /dev/urandom into sjansen's ear |
| 00:41.56 | sjansen | FAIL! |
| 00:42.03 | sjansen | My ears are blocked by a cold. |
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| 01:34.21 | harleypig | !fire |
| 01:56.30 | Sargun | ~fire |
| 01:56.31 | ibot | Bender : Light a fire for a man and he's warm for a night. Light a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life... |
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| 07:02.24 | harleypig | !define mutiny |
| 07:02.44 | harleypig | well, bugger me with a chainsaw ... |
| 07:05.02 | Gate | harleypig: I'd rather not.... |
| 07:05.03 | harleypig | Gate: That's a rather bold claim. |
| 07:05.21 | Gate | harleypig: it would be more convincing if it wasn't instantaneous. |
| 07:05.22 | harleypig | Gate: I actually can't think of any conservatives that i could jump out of junior high and it wasn't instantaneous. |
| 07:05.51 | Gate | harleypig: Markov babbler? |
| 07:05.51 | harleypig | Gate: I think i've worked it out! You are the fleshy edges of the vegetable kingdom. |
| 07:06.07 | Gate | I do love it. |
| 07:15.12 | harleypig | MegaHal |
| 07:15.59 | harleypig | I'm not interested in it being convincing so much as intelligable ... err ... however that's spelt |
| 07:18.06 | harleypig | I'm trying to figure out how to train it so I can feed it the gutenberg project. |
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| 15:07.23 | Migs | http://pleaserobme.com |
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| 16:03.11 | RyanE | Morning. |
| 16:03.37 | RyanE | Helpful hint from RyanE: If you notice your power supply fan is not turning, *DO NOT* use a Paper Clip to try and make it spin without turning the power off. :( |
| 16:04.10 | jsmith | RyanE: Good to know :-p |
| 16:04.42 | goozbach | ouch |
| 16:04.49 | RyanE | nice spark, popped the circuit breaker. Now I get a lunchtime field trip to EBC. I'm just hoping I didn't fry anything other than the PS. |
| 16:04.50 | goozbach | RyanE: that's what compressed air is for |
| 16:05.31 | RyanE | I usually have a backup power supply, but I'm out ATM. The best part is, before I used the paper clip, I thought to myself: "Self, that isn't too bright to stick a paper clip in there" |
| 16:07.23 | goozbach | RyanE: whenever you refer to yourself in the third person using the monniker "self" you should always listen |
| 16:07.43 | RyanE | yep. |
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| 16:11.45 | maquis | has a (possibly) brilliant idea for health-care reform |
| 16:12.19 | maquis | maybe if the company providing medical insurance was the same company that was providing life insurance, they wouldn't throw such a fit about covering things |
| 16:12.28 | goozbach | votes for maquis |
| 16:12.47 | maquis | grumbles |
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| 16:30.41 | Gate | votes to fire modern insurance and go back tothe catastrophic kind |
| 16:32.29 | maquis | Gate: the catastrophic kind? |
| 16:32.50 | maquis | wonders if she should lump disability insurance in the company with life insurance and medical... |
| 16:33.05 | maquis | that way they would still cover stuff that could potentially disable, but wouldn't kill |
| 16:39.20 | TehLaser | maquis: I've heard that before. It has a few perverse incentives kicking around that would be tricky to deal with. |
| 16:40.01 | TehLaser | Things like the insurer favoring keeping you alive and in pain and with negative quality of life over paliative care. |
| 16:41.01 | TehLaser | Also, you'd have to basically mortgage the life insurance benefit to pay what would otherwise be absurdly high premiums, and the owner of that mortgage would basically have anti-life insurance on you. They'd want you to die quickly. |
| 16:42.17 | TehLaser | Lumping in disability helps, but there's more to life than being able to work. |
| 16:44.21 | Gate | hahaha |
| 16:44.50 | Gate | maquis: what I mean by that is *you* pay for your checkups, but *insurance* pays for surgery type setup |
| 16:45.34 | Gate | add on to that some reform on malpractice lawsuits and we have it made. |
| 16:52.19 | Jayce^ | Gate, maquis same premise as expecting your auto-insurance to cover your oil changes.. |
| 16:52.35 | TehLaser | I agree that'd be good, but we still need to deal with the uninsured somehow. |
| 16:52.58 | TehLaser | As far as I can tell, the only options are: a) compulsury insurance, b) refuse them at the ER and let them die. |
| 16:53.36 | TehLaser | There's also the issue that people would skimp on preventative care under such a system, resulting in more problems later. |
| 16:53.47 | *** join/#utah neybar (~jalance@204.228.142.225) |
| 16:53.59 | Jayce^ | TehLaser: thing is, most of that care actually drops in price, and becomes more available. |
| 16:54.05 | TehLaser | If auto insurance covered breakdowns, not just accidents, they would probably want to cover--or at least require--oil changes. |
| 16:54.42 | TehLaser | Jayce^: yeah, but people are dumb. Not all of them mind, but some are. And they end up being expensive. |
| 16:54.52 | Jayce^ | I'd much rather have catastrophe insurance with a good HSA, if it we had an open market |
| 16:55.12 | Jayce^ | TehLaser: so govt should regulate stupidity? that's what causes the problems :) |
| 16:55.30 | TehLaser | Jayce^: like I said before, they have to, or just let the stupid die. |
| 16:55.37 | TehLaser | We don't seem willing to do the latter. |
| 16:56.02 | Jayce^ | a) I dont' think most will die, other options open up b) yeah, peole want to think that's the only other option |
| 16:56.08 | TehLaser | Oh, and let the stupid's *children* die too. |
| 16:56.43 | TehLaser | Unless you want to cover emergency child health care but not adult care or something. |
| 16:57.51 | TehLaser | And regulating stupidity, *to prevent that stupiding from causing other people harm* is precicely what goverment should be doing. |
| 16:57.57 | TehLaser | *ity |
| 16:58.05 | Jayce^ | actually, no, they shouldn't, expecially not the fed :) |
| 16:58.18 | Jayce^ | dont' see that listed anywhere in their obligations :) |
| 16:59.00 | TehLaser | If nothing else, the power to set up courts. |
| 16:59.18 | TehLaser | People who do stupid things to others and cause harm can be sued. |
| 16:59.46 | TehLaser | Doing it preemptively is another quesiton, of course. |
| 17:01.03 | TehLaser | So make not having health insurance a tort that anyone who pays taxes to support their emergency care has standing to sue for. |
| 17:01.56 | TehLaser | Though that might work better on a state level, yes. |
| 17:02.48 | Gate | People are perfectly capable of making their own choices with regards to their own health |
| 17:03.11 | TehLaser | Only if they're required to bear the consequences of those desicions, which they aren't. |
| 17:03.14 | JoshH | yep, that's why so many fatties are out there |
| 17:03.37 | Gate | TehLaser: If someone doesn't maintain their home, is it the governments job to pay the handymen to fix it for them? |
| 17:03.42 | JoshH | and why everyone packs their body with HFCS and trans fats |
| 17:03.47 | TehLaser | which goes back to option b, let people who make poor choices die, if necessicary. |
| 17:04.55 | TehLaser | people tend to be a lot more willing to let people suffer the consequences of run-down houses than of run-down bodies. |
| 17:06.19 | TehLaser | A workable option might be market-available catastrophic insurance, with a mandate, and a mandatory HSA with enough to deal with at least minimal preventative care. |
| 17:06.37 | Gate | TehLaser: how is it different? Doctors are just body-mechanics |
| 17:07.03 | TehLaser | Don't ask me. Ask the public. |
| 17:07.03 | unum | I'd be ok with a catastrophic coverage if we moved to a more market based general care |
| 17:07.21 | Gate | unum: I want market based catastrophic coverage too |
| 17:07.28 | unum | I'd much prefer that to the current system |
| 17:07.41 | unum | Gate: well as long as it's availiable to everyone |
| 17:07.47 | Gate | the LAST thing I want is a bunch of trite beuracrats controlling my health care in any way shape or form |
| 17:07.49 | unum | which would also require a mandate |
| 17:08.02 | Gate | unum: its like any other good, available to everyone who *choose* it |
| 17:08.16 | unum | Gate: government regulation is already a big part of the system |
| 17:08.25 | TehLaser | Problem with that is that if you don't have universal coverage, the healthy are incentivized not to choose it. |
| 17:08.26 | unum | Gate: I can't buy private health care |
| 17:08.34 | TehLaser | And premiums for everyone else become unworkably high. |
| 17:08.38 | unum | the only way I can get it is through government mandated group coverage |
| 17:08.49 | TehLaser | Again, if you're willing to say "tough luck for you", that's fine. |
| 17:08.56 | TehLaser | But the majority is clearly not willing to do that. |
| 17:09.30 | unum | I don't understand why so few people seem to realize than many of us only have health care coverage because of EXISTING regulation |
| 17:09.59 | Jayce^ | TehLaser: if you force any $ amount to be saved for car, prices will float with them, you will be pegging costs to whatever you legislate |
| 17:10.07 | unum | though I could get insuarance from the state pool |
| 17:10.14 | unum | or found out about an other rule yesterday |
| 17:10.30 | unum | my current health care company is required to cover me on the same plan even if I quite |
| 17:10.42 | Jayce^ | that's what healthcare used to be, you bought insurance for the catastrophe's, and you saved for the regular stuff.. it worked quite well |
| 17:10.48 | TehLaser | Jayce^: Yes. That's intentional. |
| 17:10.59 | Jayce^ | and that's bad.. |
| 17:11.06 | TehLaser | No, it isn't. |
| 17:11.08 | TehLaser | :) |
| 17:11.24 | TehLaser | You get what you pay for. |
| 17:11.39 | Jayce^ | yes, and cost controls just mess it up |
| 17:12.00 | Jayce^ | leave prcing controls out, and things will get better |
| 17:12.38 | TehLaser | Again we're back to "only if people pay the price for their decisions, they don't, and we're not willing to make them" |
| 17:12.40 | Jayce^ | similar to grant/loan funding for higher ed. It will always grow to the maximum allowed |
| 17:13.04 | Jayce^ | same idea with bandwith in a company.. you upgrade to more bandwidth, it will get consumed :) |
| 17:13.12 | TehLaser | The fact that you can "save" the funds if you don't need them, and then use them for other stuff later might help deal with that. |
| 17:13.22 | TehLaser | Let people cash out their HSAs if they get large enough. |
| 17:13.52 | TehLaser | Like a bond. You can skip coverage if you can prove you can pay for it yourself with a bond. |
| 17:14.00 | Jayce^ | yes, that is good |
| 17:14.08 | Jayce^ | that's why I like the hsa concept |
| 17:14.34 | Jayce^ | of course, hsa's only have to exist because of income tax :) |
| 17:14.43 | TehLaser | But my position here is they need to be mandatory, or people will just abuse the commons of emergency care. |
| 17:14.59 | TehLaser | No, even without tax I'd want HSAs. |
| 17:15.14 | Jayce^ | TehLaser: without tax, hsa's would just be another savings account |
| 17:15.29 | Jayce^ | the point is it's a tax shelter, because of its designated purpose |
| 17:15.30 | TehLaser | The point isn't to avoid taxes, that's just the carrot. The point is to encourage/require people to pay for their care. |
| 17:16.05 | TehLaser | Taxless HSAs would still be restricted to healthcare-only, unless you had "enough" in there, and would be manditory. |
| 17:16.46 | unum | that would be a nice thing |
| 17:17.06 | unum | under a system when your health care comes out of a general tax fund there's less incentive to take care of your self |
| 17:17.35 | TehLaser | s/general tax fund/general insurance pool/ and the idea still holds. |
| 17:17.41 | unum | but if you are forced to have so much in saving and get to keep any extra than you have an incentive to not need a doctor |
| 17:17.52 | unum | people like me are dinged a little bit under that system |
| 17:17.56 | unum | but I'm ok with that |
| 17:17.57 | TehLaser | Which is big problem of market catastrophic-only insurance. |
| 17:18.01 | unum | TehLaser: good point |
| 17:18.05 | TehLaser | Absent some sort of HSA. |
| 17:19.07 | unum | that reminds me I need to renem my prescription |
| 17:19.10 | TehLaser | I think the public is more comfortable with "you have to pay a bit more" as a conseqence of losing the genetic health lottery than "sorry, be rich or suffer" |
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| 17:19.47 | unum | TehLaser: ya |
| 17:20.20 | TehLaser | Which is why I like this particular structure. It seems possible to actually do in the real world. |
| 17:20.55 | TehLaser | Well, assuming that congress could actually do, well, anything in the real world. |
| 17:21.00 | TehLaser | :D |
| 17:21.13 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@64.245.157.11) |
| 17:21.31 | unum | TehLaser: the problem is they aren't will to do anything radical |
| 17:21.51 | unum | the suggested legislation actually pushed form more employer based health insuarance |
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| 17:22.06 | unum | in order to not upset the status quo |
| 17:22.12 | TehLaser | yup |
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| 17:56.03 | Jayce^ | somebody thinks highly of the upcoming novell case http://www.google.com/finance?q=scox |
| 18:02.43 | sjansen | can't believe that SCO is still limping along |
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| 18:07.48 | Jayce^ | more activity in the last week than they've seen in a *long* time, and up near 50% in that time |
| 18:07.50 | Zelut | a company whose sole purpose is to pay lawyers. great business plan there guys. |
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| 18:11.46 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:12.16 | sontek | Man, I was about to click that when I saw hookers, but then saw the SFW and realized I wouldn't be interested! |
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| 18:15.50 | Zelut | my right-click is broken. wtf |
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| 19:20.07 | Migs | yikes: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/7266059/School-spied-on-pupils-at-home-through-webcams.html |
| 19:20.32 | Migs | The Lower Merion School District, which administers a Philadelphia suburb that is one of the wealthiest parts of Pennsylvania, issued all 1,800 students at its two high schools with laptops so they could access school materials at home. |
| 19:20.37 | Migs | Michael and Holly Robbins claim they were alerted to the snooping when an assistant principal at Harriton High School warned their son, Blake, in November last year that he was "engaged in improper behaviour in his home", citing a photo taken on his laptop webcam as evidence. |
| 19:21.10 | elg | Migs: are you going to set that up in your district? |
| 19:21.26 | JoshH | .... |
| 19:21.33 | Migs | oh totally |
| 19:21.35 | elg | think of the home teaching applications. |
| 19:21.49 | Migs | I'm going to secretly install a VNC server on each one, too, so I can see what sites they're visiting. |
| 19:21.52 | Migs | keyloggers as well |
| 19:21.56 | Migs | The full malware deal |
| 19:23.37 | Jayce^ | oh man.. french skiier fell 5 seconds out of the gate... http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2859593/French-skier-in-five-second-crash.html |
| 19:23.44 | Jayce^ | that's gotta hurt |
| 19:31.43 | elg | i was watching snowboard cross the other day. nearly half or the boarders fell/spun out during the quarterfinals, semifinals, and finals. |
| 19:32.57 | Jayce^ | yeah, not exactly the best snow conditions for them |
| 19:33.41 | JoshH | bc snow sucks |
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| 20:25.08 | tristanbob | Jayce^, you work with freeside, right? http://www.thevarguy.com/2010/02/15/can-digium-succeed-where-red-hat-failed/ |
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| 21:02.26 | *** join/#utah goozbach_webchat (~4acfe204@gateway/web/freenode/x-lfhsmkzxdtimdnmy) |
| 21:02.31 | goozbach_webchat | heddo |
| 21:02.40 | goozbach | awesome |
| 21:04.25 | goozbach_webchat | this is interesting |
| 21:05.12 | goozbach_webchat | https://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=utah&prompt=1&nick=<INSERT HERE> |
| 21:09.17 | *** join/#utah harleypig_ (~d06e982a@gateway/web/freenode/x-vgkkblgvxxjcnxng) |
| 21:09.25 | harleypig | cool |
| 21:09.42 | harleypig_ | yeah, really cool |
| 21:09.47 | goozbach_webchat | it is harleypig_ |
| 21:09.48 | harleypig | goozbach_webchat: Which one of many things.. But nice to complain about earmarks but they really account for a live cd that will allow me to either write zeros to a private army. |
| 21:09.53 | goozbach_webchat | oooh cool tab completion |
| 21:10.15 | harleypig_ | goozbach_webchat: nice |
| 21:10.28 | goozbach_webchat | complain about earmarks? |
| 21:10.30 | harleypig_ | This client looks like CGI:IRC |
| 21:10.34 | goozbach_webchat | wiskey tango foxtrot |
| 21:10.44 | harleypig_ | I think harleypig is little loopy! |
| 21:10.54 | goozbach_webchat | there's a CGI::IRC? |
| 21:10.55 | goozbach_webchat | hmm |
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| 21:11.12 | harleypig | cgiirc.com |
| 21:11.19 | harleypig | err ... cgiirc.org |
| 21:11.40 | goozbach | coolio |
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| 21:13.11 | sjansen | I think harleypig is a little botty. |
| 21:13.12 | harleypig | sjansen: You want to talk about something a little botty. |
| 21:13.30 | harleypig_ | harleypig: are you a bot? |
| 21:13.49 | harleypig_ | Oh, yeah ... he ignores me! |
| 21:14.56 | *** mode/#utah [+v friocorte] by ChanServ |
| 21:20.52 | sjansen | hugs vim |
| 21:24.13 | *** part/#utah friocorte (~4acfe204@gateway/web/freenode/x-lfhsmkzxdtimdnmy) |
| 21:45.33 | eightyeight | ~hug sjansen |
| 21:45.34 | ibot | ACTION hugs sjansen |
| 21:46.56 | elg | whistles the happy tax return dance |
| 21:49.23 | fozzmoo | tax return? Or tax refund? |
| 21:51.36 | goozbach | I got my refund |
| 21:51.42 | goozbach | I'm not getting this much next year! |
| 21:51.53 | goozbach | good grief, I missed out on a *LOT* of interest |
| 21:52.14 | fozzmoo | goozbach: Cool. I hope we get a refund when it's all said and done. We did buy a house in the last month of 2009. There's some tax credit for that. |
| 21:53.10 | goozbach | fozzmoo: you haven't done your taxes yet!? |
| 21:53.12 | goozbach | :) |
| 21:53.22 | fozzmoo | Because of my business, I have a CPA. :) |
| 21:53.27 | goozbach | ahh |
| 21:53.33 | goozbach | he hasn't done your taxes yet!? |
| 21:53.36 | goozbach | :) |
| 21:53.44 | elg | i'm getting a substantial refund |
| 21:53.54 | goozbach | I got a substantial refund |
| 21:53.57 | goozbach | but never again! |
| 21:53.58 | fozzmoo | He does his best to get me out of paying taxes. :) |
| 21:53.59 | elg | primarily due to signing bonuses being taxed at the maximum reate. |
| 21:54.37 | fozzmoo | Art Laffer was on GB's TV show yesterday touting a 11.5% flat tax. |
| 21:54.47 | fozzmoo | Interesting proposal. |
| 21:54.51 | goozbach | meh |
| 21:54.56 | goozbach | give me the fair tax |
| 21:55.04 | goozbach | so I can decide how much I'll get taxed |
| 21:55.14 | fozzmoo | fair tax is pretty much just a national sales tax, right? |
| 21:55.20 | elg | combined with making squat the first 7 months of the year, and education expenses and new car tax deductions |
| 21:55.21 | goozbach | yeah |
| 21:55.32 | fozzmoo | yeah- that's appealing too. |
| 21:55.37 | goozbach | fozzmoo: it's a national sales tax + prebate |
| 21:55.45 | goozbach | (for cost of living) |
| 21:56.38 | fozzmoo | The big point GB made in his show yesterday was that raising or cutting taxes isn't really going to help us at this point. |
| 21:56.59 | Jayce^ | elg: that bonus rate kills |
| 21:57.03 | fozzmoo | Even as great as people say Reagan's tax cuts were, he was unable to stop the increase in government spending. |
| 21:57.19 | elg | yeah, it was like 25% plus state taxes, nearly half of the bonus. |
| 21:57.20 | fozzmoo | That's pretty much the only thing that can save us now. |
| 21:57.36 | fozzmoo | The govt needs to stop spending, regardless of tax decreases or increases. |
| 21:57.48 | fozzmoo | s/spending/spending so much/ |
| 21:57.54 | *** part/#utah carmony (~justin@c-24-10-194-172.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:58.02 | fozzmoo | Yeah- I can always get carmony to leave. |
| 21:59.26 | fozzmoo | and thaddeusq |
| 22:00.05 | levi | It was all that talk of Glenn Beck that did them in. ;P |
| 22:00.40 | fozzmoo | The truth is too much for some people. ;P |
| 22:00.40 | Jayce^ | elg: what's really lame is you get the same 'bonus' tax rate applied to severence.. just when you need it the most :) |
| 22:00.58 | Jayce^ | totally horked up my taxes last year |
| 22:01.06 | fozzmoo | Jayce^: That does suck. I'd like to apply some severance to the IRS. |
| 22:01.13 | fozzmoo | Uh. Did I just type that out-loud? |
| 22:01.13 | elg | technically the signing bonus was just when I needed it the most too. ever tried moving cross country after being a grad student for 4 years? |
| 22:01.23 | levi | Looks like my state refund showed up, but not my fed refund. |
| 22:01.41 | elg | we squeezed through though. |
| 22:02.15 | levi | elg: After being a grad student for 4 years, you don't have anything to move! Try being a comfortably-employed software engineer for 4 years and see how fun moving is. ;) |
| 22:02.32 | elg | :) |
| 22:03.12 | elg | while it is true we didn't have as much stuff as we might have, we had accumulated plenty in our 8 years to make it uncheap |
| 22:03.20 | Jayce^ | seriously, that's half the reason we're still in the same house.. I truly *fear* moving.. |
| 22:03.28 | levi | Junk expands to fill the space available to you. Compressing it to fit in a moving van is not fun. |
| 22:03.33 | sjansen | I've been comfortably employed for > 5 years. I don't fear moving. |
| 22:03.43 | levi | sjansen: You're also single. |
| 22:03.48 | Jayce^ | big difference |
| 22:03.55 | elg | i hate moving. |
| 22:04.03 | sjansen | I've got a bunch of books. But I'll probably just burn all the furniture. |
| 22:04.13 | Jayce^ | sjansen: that's probably for the better |
| 22:04.15 | elg | but moving locally isn't half bad. once you consign yourself to months of dealing with boxes and a few days of hard labor |
| 22:04.43 | Jayce^ | elg: but a long move makes it easier to do more 'junk-it' decisions to fit.. |
| 22:04.45 | levi | We moved every few years while I was growing up. It was never fun. |
| 22:04.55 | Jayce^ | locally, you feel more pull to just keep things and move them along |
| 22:04.57 | elg | long distance is harder because you have to fit it all in one van and figure out how to relocate your vehicles as well, in one trip |
| 22:05.12 | elg | that's true. |
| 22:05.24 | elg | but i'm always fighting to keep my stuff from being junked, so not really an issue for me. :) |
| 22:05.32 | levi | Juggling vehicles can be pretty interesting. |
| 22:06.25 | Jayce^ | yeah, I've already been told by my EQ that if I ever move, the food storage is out of the 'assistance' plan :) |
| 22:06.27 | fungus | The furthest I have ever moved in my life was across the street |
| 22:06.29 | levi | Last move I helped my parents with was WA to MD. 3 drivers, 4 cars. |
| 22:06.32 | *** join/#utah thaddeusq (~thaddeusq@216.49.181.128) |
| 22:07.07 | Jayce^ | fungus: crazy.. total opposite with my fam |
| 22:07.12 | elg | the fact that I can visualize how to accomplish that without a trailer makes me wonder how I survived my teenage years. |
| 22:07.39 | eightyeight | i've moved more times than i care to admit |
| 22:08.01 | elg | harleypig will hold it against you? |
| 22:08.02 | harleypig | elg: 2D i can say that they only went to college all went to increase their testimony and didn't even try to learn anything. |
| 22:08.05 | levi | I was going to BYU at the time, so we had some friends in WA who were travelling to Utah anyway take one of the cars there. We drove the other 3. |
| 22:08.20 | elg | that's the problem with flatlanders, harleypig |
| 22:08.21 | harleypig | elg: I think harleypig is a small portable musical instrument with a catastrophic coverage if you don't have a problem with flatlanders, harleypig. |
| 22:09.43 | levi | Speaking of cars, I may be back down to 4 soon. |
| 22:09.44 | fozzmoo | My elders quorum president vowed to buy me a Kindle after carrying several paper boxes full of books out of my house last Fall. |
| 22:09.45 | Jayce^ | I've lived in my current house longer than anywhere else now |
| 22:09.51 | Jayce^ | levi: selling, or just dead? |
| 22:10.05 | fozzmoo | He never made good on that vow. |
| 22:10.15 | levi | Jayce^: Finally got a seriously interested buyer for the Eurovan. |
| 22:10.35 | Migs | fozzmoo: You should casually remind him |
| 22:10.49 | levi | All 5 of my vehicles are currently running and legal to drive. :) |
| 22:11.06 | Jayce^ | you know, in casual conversation, like calling him at 2 am and breathing it deeply into the phone... |
| 22:11.12 | elg | fozzmoo: he'll probably come up with it when you ask him to move you again |
| 22:11.14 | Jayce^ | or chopping your way through the door |
| 22:11.36 | elg | though I like book boxes. you know how heavy they'll be before you pick them up, they're always manageable. they're not awkward |
| 22:11.39 | levi | Just finished repainting a bit of my firewall on the red Miata where brake fluid destroyed the paint beneath a leak I just fixed. |
| 22:11.44 | Migs | all the while screaming "KIIIIINDLE! KIIIIINDLE!" |
| 22:12.27 | fozzmoo | Migs: Thanks for the inspiration. I'll do that. |
| 22:13.03 | levi | Yeah, book boxes are far from the worst. |
| 22:13.20 | elg | people who put books in large clothing boxes, otoh... |
| 22:13.26 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 22:13.34 | levi | They can carry those boxes themselves. :) |
| 22:13.42 | fozzmoo | Our heaviest boxes were food this last time around. |
| 22:14.03 | fozzmoo | I made the brilliant decision of filling a couple supermicro server boxes with stuff from the basement food storage room. |
| 22:14.10 | Jayce^ | I think I'm going to have to sell my safe with the house.. I really don't want to move that thing |
| 22:14.20 | levi | Supermicro server boxes are heavy when empty! |
| 22:14.25 | fozzmoo | We needed 4 people to carry each of those. |
| 22:15.16 | levi | Jayce^: I made my wife sad by selling our fancy microwave/convection oven thingy with our condo. Didn't want to mess with uninstalling it. |
| 22:15.23 | fozzmoo | levi: Hmmm. So, next time I need to remove paint, I should forego paint thinner/remover and just go buy some brake fluid? |
| 22:16.18 | levi | fozzmoo: I'm sure it's less efficient than paint stripper, but it definitely does the job if left on there. |
| 22:16.48 | fozzmoo | How does it smell? Can I get high on brake fluid? |
| 22:17.00 | levi | It doesn't really smell. |
| 22:17.06 | fozzmoo | hMMM. Never mind then. |
| 22:17.13 | fozzmoo | ;-) |
| 22:17.18 | levi | It's just kind of oily. |
| 22:23.07 | levi | Anyway, the red Miata will be the next to go. It's about all fixed up now. |
| 22:23.20 | levi | It'll be nice to be back down to 3 cars! |
| 22:24.24 | fozzmoo | I wish we could get down to 2 cars. |
| 22:24.57 | fozzmoo | To do that, however, I'd either have to drive our minivan or we'd have to sell my Subaru and the van and get some SUV-type thing that can easily seat 5 people. |
| 22:25.21 | fozzmoo | I'm not a fan of Yukons, Suburbans, etc. |
| 22:26.00 | fozzmoo | I sure liked riding in Jayce^'s BFT, tho. |
| 22:26.04 | levi | Well, if not a minivan or SUV, what would you drive? |
| 22:26.27 | fozzmoo | I wish Mazda still made their AWD minivan. :) |
| 22:26.40 | levi | Toyota has an AWD minivan. |
| 22:26.59 | fozzmoo | Yeah- that's true. Both Toyota and Dodge have AWD versions of their minivans. |
| 22:27.33 | levi | My parents still have their AWD Toyota Previa. |
| 22:27.35 | fozzmoo | shrugs |
| 22:28.18 | levi | The Mazda CX-7/9 are pretty nice-looking. |
| 22:28.54 | fozzmoo | Yeah, they are. |
| 22:29.01 | fozzmoo | Too bad they kinda suck on gas. |
| 22:29.26 | fozzmoo | Jayce^: How does your BFT do on gas? |
| 22:29.30 | levi | If I was going to get an AWD van, though, I would get a Syncro Vanagon. But that's just me being unreasonable. |
| 22:31.41 | fozzmoo | Failblog isn't loading for me... |
| 22:31.43 | fozzmoo | FAIL. |
| 22:34.35 | sjansen | tmux vs screen? Go! |
| 22:34.51 | elg | tmux has 2 syllables. screen only 1. |
| 22:35.03 | elg | but tmux has an x. x is always good |
| 22:35.21 | fozzmoo | screen has two e's. E eats everything! |
| 22:35.42 | elg | that's 3 Es. |
| 22:38.24 | levi | TMBG FTW! |
| 22:38.33 | fozzmoo | levi: :) |
| 22:40.16 | levi | fozzmoo: What kind of Subaru do you have? |
| 22:40.39 | fozzmoo | 98 Outback Sport (and an 09 Impreza sedan) |
| 22:42.04 | Tene | shorter documentation! |
| 22:42.11 | levi | Cool. My Vanagon has the engine from a '99 Legacy of some sort. 2.5l DOHC engine. |
| 22:42.12 | Tene | tmux is scriptable from the command-line! |
| 22:42.24 | Tene | tmux has a client/server model to reduce resource usage! |
| 22:42.36 | Tene | Clean, friendly code-base and actively developed! |
| 22:42.47 | fozzmoo | Tene: Who asked you? :) |
| 22:42.58 | levi | screen is retro-cool, like Unix. |
| 22:42.59 | Tene | fozzmoo: 15:34 < sjansen> tmux vs screen? Go! |
| 22:43.08 | fozzmoo | Tene: Oh. Uh. yeah. |
| 22:43.26 | levi | If we wanted modern stuff, we'd be using Windows or something! ;) |
| 22:44.02 | fozzmoo | sjansen: You thinking about putting together a presentation for UTOSC 2010? That would be killer! |
| 22:44.05 | elg | resource usage? |
| 22:44.18 | elg | sersly? we're worried about the resource usage of screen? |
| 22:45.57 | elg | but i can imagine practical benefits to the client server model |
| 22:46.00 | Tene | I'm personally not, but it's one of the features they list on the main page of their website. |
| 22:46.39 | elg | people other than goozbach being worried about screen's resource usage is like websites other than facebook being worried about php execution time |
| 22:50.09 | sjansen | heard that Anne Coulter was responsible for Facebook choosing PHP |
| 22:50.16 | fozzmoo | gasps |
| 22:51.04 | unum | that explains soooooo much |
| 22:55.48 | Migs | I like PHP |
| 22:55.54 | Migs | have I mentioned that before? |
| 22:59.24 | unum | I think it's an awful trashy language, but for web pages I won't use anything else |
| 23:05.52 | Migs | {insert that's what they say about urmom joke} |
| 23:06.35 | sjansen | I think PHP is a decent templating language. For anything else it is a dangerous perversion. |
| 23:06.53 | levi | It's a dangerous perversion of a decent templating language. ;) |
| 23:07.00 | *** join/#utah gillyboat (~adam@70-89-247-187-ut.utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 23:07.07 | sjansen | The two worst things about PHP are (1) the maintainers and (2) the community. |
| 23:08.36 | sjansen | The maintainers have repeatedly shown poor judgment and deliberate ignorance. |
| 23:09.06 | sjansen | The community has shown an incredible capacity to write bad code and teach poor practices. |
| 23:26.40 | JoshH | i think that's because most of the php community you are talking about aren't "programmers", who really care about proper code, best practices, good design, etc. they're just people who want their site to do X and saw a blog post about a function to do it. |
| 23:30.15 | elg | an interesting hypothetical question is, would we be maligning some other language that had sprung up perfectly formed without warts instead of php, filling the same role |
| 23:30.29 | elg | i.e. those barely-programmers have to use some language |
| 23:30.51 | elg | would they only use a language worth maligning? or does their usage of the language make the language (more) worth maligning? |
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| 23:32.02 | *** join/#utah cmcguire (~cmcguire@69.27.0.72) |
| 23:34.55 | sjansen | Some language are more prone to abuse. |
| 23:35.27 | sjansen | PHP and Perl are notoriously prone to abuse. Python is not. |
| 23:35.31 | elg | definitely. and php is definitely deserving of all we can throw at it |
| 23:35.38 | sjansen | Java isn't very prone to abuse either, but for different reasons. |
| 23:35.56 | elg | so the question is - php was in the right place at the right time, or the n00bs wouldn't use python because it's too hard? |
| 23:36.02 | elg | or any other suitable substitute |
| 23:36.05 | elg | hypothetical or now |
| 23:37.22 | sjansen | Setting assign language, though, the maintainers of PHP repeatedly showed shortsightedness and an unwillingness to learn from others. Anything that spends as much time reinventing the wheel as PHP did is pretty much doomed to making gobs of design mistakes. |
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| 23:41.31 | sjansen | PHP was one of my first languages. |
| 23:41.45 | elg | IOW you don't want to play hypothetical with me. :-( |
| 23:42.04 | sjansen | My personal experience leads me to favor the "right place, right time, wrong technology" theory. |
| 23:42.20 | JoshH | java was the first language i ever tried to learn, and it basically just made me hate programming. then i played with perl, and started having fun |
| 23:42.47 | JoshH | well, C too, which i like, but i can't really do anythign practical with it |
| 23:43.01 | sjansen | Compared to PHP, nothing else was as cheap and easy to start doing Web development. |
| 23:43.05 | elg | i kind of agree, sjansen, but wonder if statistically speaking something like php (easy to learn and with flaws) was statistically inevitable |
| 23:43.06 | JoshH | practical as in something i can personally use |
| 23:43.35 | elg | you can imagine a parallel universe where such a language wasn't around, or a sufficiently awesome language that was also sufficiently easy to learn was in the right place at the right time |
| 23:43.47 | JoshH | i honestly don't see how php is inherently easier to learn than any other language |
| 23:43.49 | elg | but intuition points to it being less likely. |
| 23:43.52 | JoshH | it still has most of the same concepts |
| 23:44.08 | JoshH | just way more stupid functions |
| 23:44.49 | elg | what else was there? |
| 23:44.56 | JoshH | anyone that can learn php easily can also learn python |
| 23:45.00 | elg | python and ruby weren't around (or hadn't gained enough ground) |
| 23:45.10 | elg | pascal was so passe |
| 23:45.39 | sjansen | PHP came with zero friction Apache integration. No need to understand the concept of templates, search paths, etc. |
| 23:45.40 | elg | java just picking up steam but not ever really an option for n00bs |
| 23:46.13 | elg | yup. getting php running for the sysadmin isn't always a walk in the park, but once it's done all the users have zero friction |
| 23:46.54 | elg | even today, python and ruby and perl don't have the same seamlessness except on webhosts that target them specifically (and then usually only a certainf ramework, e.g. rails or django) |
| 23:48.02 | JoshH | cgi works fine! |
| 23:48.47 | JoshH | goes home |
| 23:49.03 | elg | if I had a delorian, I'd go back in time armed with an elegant easy theoretically sound language (something that allows or even encourages functional programming but also procedural), the equivalent of mod_php, and see what happens |
| 23:49.16 | elg | cgi had its chance |
| 23:49.44 | sjansen | It wouldn't even need to be theoretically perfect or incredibly powerful. |
| 23:50.12 | elg | no, but if you're going to go back in time and fix something might as well do it right. |
| 23:50.43 | sjansen | Just having a decent concept of name spaces. Or a decent DB abstraction layer. Or more quickly eliminating register_globals, to say nothing of never creating magic_quotes. |
| 23:51.02 | *** join/#utah toofer (~toofer@kjordan.securesites.net) |
| 23:51.46 | elg | so if perl had just had namespaces? |
| 23:52.06 | sjansen | The incredible lack of imagination that lead to addslashes() still amazes me. (What could possibly go wrong?!) |
| 23:52.37 | elg | :-) |
| 23:54.50 | sjansen | Don't get me wrong. Perl had (and still has) all kinds of problems too. It should never be used by inexperienced, undisciplined programmers to write more than a couple hundred lines of code. |
| 23:55.21 | *** join/#utah eco_ (~eco@gnuk.net) |
| 23:56.00 | sjansen | Unfortunately, when PHP was really taking off, the only noticeable response Python could muster was Zope. A real tragedy. |
| 23:56.58 | sjansen | The one thing that PHP got very right, and everyone else took years to understand, was letting the Web be the Web. |
| 23:58.15 | sjansen | Even today there are still insane, misguided souls trying to make Web development feel like GUI development. |