| 00:44.41 | *** join/#utah ksaisjja (~ksaisjja@fw.oremut02.us.wh.verio.net) |
| 00:49.25 | toofer | What do people use for webmail clients these days? |
| 00:49.48 | vontrapp | mutt |
| 00:49.57 | toofer | squirrelmail, roundcube, etc... |
| 00:50.08 | toofer | I suppose I could use that too. |
| 00:50.20 | vontrapp | squirrel |
| 00:50.33 | vontrapp | but that was setup years ago |
| 00:50.58 | toofer | Yeah, squirrelmail has been around for a long time. |
| 00:51.56 | Zelut | roundcube is pretty, but I don't like that it requires a database |
| 00:52.19 | toofer | I don't either and I would like one that supports maildir. |
| 00:56.19 | Zelut | we use squirrelmail at work, despite it being old and using frames. it's got tons of plugins and is simple setup. |
| 00:58.06 | *** join/#utah blendmaster1025 (~blendmast@97-117-99-216.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 01:02.56 | toofer | yeah, squirrelmail may still be the way to go. |
| 01:41.48 | *** join/#utah zzqa (~A@c-174-52-193-171.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 02:32.48 | *** join/#utah Abog (~toofer@m340e36d0.tmodns.net) |
| 02:40.31 | goozbach | roundcube |
| 03:11.14 | *** join/#utah Abog (~toofer@m740e36d0.tmodns.net) |
| 03:26.39 | *** join/#utah ksaisjja (~ksaisjja@fw.oremut02.us.wh.verio.net) |
| 03:32.59 | tensai | squirrelmail. i'm a very occasional user. |
| 03:33.44 | tensai | toofer: maildir? aren't they usually imap based? |
| 03:37.49 | toofer | tensai, yeah that's what I'm looking for is a IMAP webmail client. |
| 03:57.37 | Sargun | Phillumeny (also known as Phillumenism) is the hobby of collecting different match-related items: matchboxes, matchbox labels, matchbooks, matchcovers, matchsafes, etc. |
| 03:58.27 | toofer | uh is this the random word of the day? |
| 03:59.12 | goozbach | toofer: it's just par for the course with sargun |
| 03:59.44 | Sargun | toofer, sure |
| 04:09.24 | fugue88 | Here's a word for the day: beeves, plural of beef. As in, "what are your beeves with me, man?" |
| 04:09.54 | fugue88 | :) |
| 04:35.03 | *** join/#utah keldwud (~keldwud@c-67-161-214-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 05:14.23 | *** join/#utah sshaw (~decriptor@53.250.sfcn.org) |
| 07:31.28 | *** part/#utah keldwud (~keldwud@c-67-161-214-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 07:52.23 | *** join/#utah Abog (~toofer@m340e36d0.tmodns.net) |
| 08:17.44 | *** join/#utah Sargun (~Sargun@atarack/Staff/Sargun) |
| 08:19.40 | *** join/#utah keldwud (~keldwud@c-67-161-214-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 08:52.17 | *** part/#utah keldwud (~keldwud@c-67-161-214-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 09:25.30 | *** join/#utah Zelut (~christer@unaffiliated/zelut) |
| 10:09.25 | *** join/#utah keldwud (~keldwud@c-67-161-214-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 10:17.36 | *** part/#utah keldwud (~keldwud@c-67-161-214-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 13:33.51 | *** join/#utah blendmasternoid (~blendmast@97-117-99-216.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 13:51.25 | *** join/#utah sshaw (~decriptor@53.250.sfcn.org) |
| 14:08.47 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@nat/redhat/x-zvicffmhepctbjod) |
| 14:08.48 | *** mode/#utah [+v emcnabb] by ChanServ |
| 15:00.37 | *** join/#utah Zelut (~christer@unaffiliated/zelut) |
| 15:15.48 | *** join/#utah thaddeusq (~thaddeusq@216.49.181.128) |
| 15:18.20 | ^Migs^ | http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/epic-fail-tax-advice-fail.jpg hahaha |
| 15:24.36 | *** join/#utah Zelut (~christer@unaffiliated/zelut) |
| 15:33.15 | *** join/#utah elg (~fugalh@c-67-164-125-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 15:33.15 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 15:44.56 | *** join/#utah sinuhe (~sinuhe@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 15:49.08 | *** join/#utah sshaw (~decriptor@137.65.132.7) |
| 16:15.08 | *** join/#utah fungus (~olsonl@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 16:31.09 | *** join/#utah tiwula (~lane@63.225.228.210) |
| 16:31.55 | *** join/#utah SunSparc (~sparky@173-8-91-177-Utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 16:35.14 | *** join/#utah neybar (~jalance@204.228.142.225) |
| 16:47.24 | *** join/#utah Sargun (~Sargun@atarack/Staff/Sargun) |
| 17:09.44 | *** join/#utah tiwula (~lane@75-148-99-197-Utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 17:17.18 | *** join/#utah carrus85 (~carrus85@64.0.193.15) |
| 17:29.36 | *** join/#utah brasto (~brasto@67.136.58.130) |
| 17:57.03 | *** join/#utah RyanE (Piadas@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 17:57.22 | *** join/#utah levi (~user@levi.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 18:06.42 | *** join/#utah elg (~fugalh@out1-1601fw.corp.tfbnw.net) |
| 18:06.42 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 18:18.01 | *** join/#utah ChrisAR (~ChrisAR@unaffiliated/chrisar) |
| 18:38.45 | *** join/#utah eggyknap (~jtolley@c-67-164-197-162.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 18:38.46 | *** join/#utah eggyknap (~jtolley@unaffiliated/eggyknap) |
| 18:42.22 | fozzmoo | Good morning. |
| 18:42.48 | tvc123 | mornin |
| 18:46.29 | Zelut | I'm building a new dev machine and I need a hostname. suggestions? |
| 18:46.58 | goozbach | bob-01 |
| 18:47.04 | goozbach | then use bob-02 |
| 18:47.13 | Zelut | pffft |
| 18:47.16 | goozbach | then you can say "I've got a meeting with the bobs" |
| 18:47.25 | Zelut | they called me at home |
| 18:49.05 | elg | pick any of a number of overzelus historical figures |
| 18:49.21 | elg | misspell his/her name |
| 18:49.23 | elg | and there you go |
| 18:49.41 | elg | ssh mahks |
| 18:49.52 | fozzmoo | Zelut: What are your other machine names? |
| 18:50.07 | Zelut | for my personal stuff I use characters from tv shows that I like (heroes, BSG, etc). |
| 18:50.18 | goozbach | Zelut: I use the domain .dev for all my dev stuff |
| 18:50.43 | Zelut | for my "lab" I use encryption ciphers.. |
| 18:50.45 | goozbach | so if I'm making a machine to be the dev equiv of the host "kessel" (my naming scheme is star wars planets) |
| 18:50.55 | goozbach | I use kessel.dev.domain.com |
| 18:52.02 | Zelut | http://www.randomhostname.com/index.php :) |
| 18:52.05 | fozzmoo | My personal scheme is three-letter words. |
| 18:52.17 | fozzmoo | foo, bar, baz, tic, tux, toe, moo, toy |
| 18:52.28 | elg | fozz is a four letter word |
| 18:52.31 | fozzmoo | Oh, and toc. |
| 18:52.39 | fozzmoo | elg: Yes. yes, it is. |
| 18:52.46 | fozzmoo | elg: Very observant. :) |
| 18:53.00 | elg | ~language f**moo |
| 18:53.01 | ibot | ACTION grabs f**moo by the ear and washes f**moo's mouth out with soap |
| 18:53.37 | fozzmoo | Iodynamics named servers after evil dictators. mao. stalin. castro. mussolini. |
| 18:53.51 | fozzmoo | I think we had a pelosi at one point. It was an Asterisk box. |
| 18:53.51 | elg | ~lart f***mao |
| 18:53.51 | ibot | tries to shut f***mao up |
| 18:54.16 | fozzmoo | My last server scheme was founding fathers. |
| 18:54.50 | Zelut | I like my BSG scheme I use on one of my FreeBSD + jails servers |
| 18:54.51 | goozbach | visiting mussolini.... |
| 18:55.01 | fozzmoo | goozbach: You know that story? |
| 18:55.45 | fozzmoo | Anybody been watching the BSG spinoff Caprica? |
| 18:56.29 | Zelut | fozzmoo: I saw the first few episodes like last year. I'm confused whether there is more than I've already seen or not. |
| 18:56.58 | fozzmoo | Zelut: I have no idea. I've only started watching it on SyFy (I miss SciFi) this month. |
| 18:57.17 | fozzmoo | I've only seen the 2-hour premiere and the second one. |
| 18:57.24 | goozbach | fozzmoo: yup |
| 18:57.48 | Zelut | It may have only been the two-hour premiere that I saw. I'll have to check out Hulu for more.. |
| 18:57.53 | goozbach | fozzmoo: did you forget I was the "chief roadie" for the band?! |
| 18:57.54 | goozbach | :) |
| 18:57.58 | goozbach | I know all the stories |
| 18:58.07 | Zelut | on a somewhat BSG related note, I'm having a hard time with 24 this season due to Starbuck not being Starbuck. |
| 18:58.24 | goozbach | including that one with the tiger, mike tyson, a baby, and 24hours in Vegas.... |
| 18:58.33 | goozbach | oh wait... that was a movie |
| 18:58.50 | fozzmoo | goozbach: :-D |
| 18:58.51 | Zelut | I expect her to be out kickin ass with Jack Bauer, but she's behind a desk. wtf? |
| 18:59.33 | fozzmoo | Zelut: Is 24 any good? I watched S1 through S4 or S5 on DVD and it... never was as good as S1 or S2. |
| 19:00.05 | fozzmoo | Zelut: She was so much better on BSG than she was on Andromeda. |
| 19:00.36 | fozzmoo | Col. Tigh's wife has had a role in Heroes. She did pretty good. |
| 19:01.30 | RyanE | good enough that I didn't realize it was the same acress until you said so. |
| 19:03.12 | fozzmoo | Heroes S4 doesn't quite make up for S2 and S3, but it's certainly the best since S1, IMO. |
| 19:04.45 | RyanE | I keep expecting Nathan Petrelli to show up, being no one ever dies on that show. |
| 19:05.16 | fozzmoo | Well, Hiro could make that happen. :) |
| 19:06.09 | RyanE | You ever watch 'MI5', on BBC America? (Called 'Spooks' in the UK)? |
| 19:06.17 | RyanE | They regularly kill off regulars. |
| 19:06.23 | RyanE | Quite a shock when I was first watching it. |
| 19:10.40 | fozzmoo | Joss Whedon does that too. |
| 19:17.45 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@nat/redhat/x-bewhnibokzlmvjfd) |
| 19:17.45 | *** mode/#utah [+v emcnabb] by ChanServ |
| 19:18.05 | eggyknap | OpenSUSE people: There's a packaging bug on OpenSUSE 11.3, and at least one 10.X version, with PostgreSQL's pl/perl package. Where do I scream? |
| 19:18.21 | eggyknap | I'm at bugzilla.novell.com, but don't see a "Component" that really matches. |
| 19:18.57 | eggyknap | Perhaps just "Other"... |
| 19:22.53 | *** join/#utah tiwula (~lane@75-148-99-197-Utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 19:24.59 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@nat/redhat/x-itxagwjhwiqutmjh) |
| 19:24.59 | *** mode/#utah [+v emcnabb] by ChanServ |
| 19:28.13 | *** join/#utah bmidgley2 (~brad@c-76-27-89-77.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 19:45.59 | *** join/#utah romanovic (~romanovic@c-67-161-208-14.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 19:52.59 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@75-169-115-58.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 20:30.08 | unum | http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/02/apt-hacks/ |
| 20:30.12 | unum | anyone else read that |
| 20:33.52 | tripzero | :( |
| 20:34.09 | tripzero | still missing the FOSS car on media.utos.org :( |
| 20:35.08 | sontek | I blame Heartsbane for that |
| 20:35.16 | sontek | looks at Heartsbane suspiciously |
| 20:40.57 | tripzero | he must be low on bacon |
| 20:41.50 | Heartsbane | Blame me all you want ... it won't accomplish anytihng |
| 20:42.06 | sontek | >:| |
| 20:42.06 | Heartsbane | BBL I hafta upgrade some RAM in a X200 |
| 21:05.01 | *** join/#utah fungus (~olsonl@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 21:07.56 | *** join/#utah carmony (~justin@c-24-10-194-172.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:21.28 | *** join/#utah blendmaster1024 (~blendmast@unaffiliated/blendmaster1024) |
| 21:22.36 | sjansen | http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2010/02/08/2010-02-08_sarah_believe_me_you_have_delusions_of_grandeur.html |
| 21:24.25 | sjansen | It's really kinda tragic that at least short term, McCain's most memorable contribution will be elevating Sarah Palin from obscure joke to major threat to the Republican party. |
| 21:26.55 | tripzero | well, she is better looking than that other female presidential canidate |
| 21:27.06 | levi | Ah, Sarah Palin, how I wish you'd go back to hunting and riding snowmobiles in relative obscurity. |
| 21:27.58 | levi | Surely that would be more fun than giving speeches and doing interviews. |
| 21:28.12 | levi | And far, far better for your country! |
| 21:28.58 | fozzmoo | covers his "PALIN POWER!" sign and goes back to work. |
| 21:32.15 | sjansen | http://www.hulu.com/watch/126490/saturday-night-live-rahm-emanuel#s-p1-sr-i3 |
| 21:34.44 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (~timr@bzflag/projectlead/TimRiker) |
| 21:34.44 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 21:34.50 | tripzero | last i checked, measurable intelligence isn't a requirement for the presidential position. I'd vote for her if Ron Paul where her VP candidate. |
| 21:35.21 | fozzmoo | My biggest beef with Palin is her undying defense of McCain. |
| 21:35.27 | elg | oh this quote... could brac put it any better? "I think it would be absurd to not consider what it is that I can potentially do to help our country," |
| 21:35.49 | fozzmoo | Sure, he's an American hero, blah blah blah, but he's a progressive Republican. Big govt all the way. |
| 21:37.11 | tripzero | agreed |
| 21:37.18 | sjansen | Seriously? That's your biggest concern? Not here demonstrated lack of commitment or soundbite deep understanding of the issues? Voting for president is liking choosing a radio talk show host or prom queen. |
| 21:37.54 | tripzero | 2 words, g.w bush |
| 21:37.55 | sjansen | s/ is / isn't / |
| 21:38.05 | fozzmoo | sjansen: I didn't say anything about voting for her as president. I just said my big beef with her was... |
| 21:38.26 | fozzmoo | So far, I don't think she's running for anything. Maybe prom queen of Fox News. |
| 21:38.40 | tripzero | luls |
| 21:38.49 | tripzero | "i want to be queen of America" |
| 21:39.16 | sjansen | tripzero: How old are you? Bush looked like a decent choice until 9/11 drove him into a panic and he let his cabinet hijack the administration. You also have to remember the "brilliant" choices presented by the Democrats. |
| 21:41.02 | tripzero | The president chooses his own cabinet. And yes the dems had a equally pathetic candidate |
| 21:41.03 | fozzmoo | sjansen: I agree with your "lack of committment" comment. |
| 21:41.11 | sjansen | In balance, his presidency was a failure, but at least when we first voted for him he looked like a good choice. |
| 21:41.29 | fozzmoo | sjansen: His first term wasn't a complete failure. |
| 21:41.42 | tripzero | hence his second term |
| 21:41.53 | fozzmoo | Overall, I think his first term had merit... |
| 21:42.05 | fozzmoo | But.. yeah. |
| 21:43.08 | tripzero | well, depends on how you look at it. He did very little to stop government spending or reducing the size of government. but he succeeded in growing the military and the associated corporations as a part of that complex |
| 21:43.20 | sjansen | His first term was enough of a failure that it produced the Patriot [Betrayal] Act, Guantanamo, pitiful military planning, etc. The primary reason he was elected for a second term was the Democrats failed to choice a candidate that could credibly lead a nation at war. |
| 21:44.14 | fozzmoo | we can agree that John Kerry is a waste of skin. ;0 |
| 21:44.16 | fozzmoo | :) |
| 21:44.53 | fozzmoo | He might as well have run on a platform of Ketchup. |
| 21:45.17 | sjansen | I don't know if I'd go that far, but he sure wasn't the right person to step in and take the helm of nation. |
| 21:45.19 | fozzmoo | He probably would have fared better in the election if he had been the "ketchup candidate" |
| 21:46.12 | tripzero | Google would make a better pres. |
| 21:46.22 | tripzero | they already have better intel than the govt |
| 21:47.00 | tripzero | and they actually have positive earnings... imagine that, a gov with postive earnings |
| 21:47.14 | goozbach | that'd be something to see |
| 21:47.15 | fozzmoo | The fact that John Kerry was even nominated illustrates a real problem with a significant portion of the American populace... |
| 21:47.31 | fozzmoo | that is... a lack of understanding of the term "honor." |
| 21:47.40 | tripzero | fozzmoo, i overwhelmingly concur |
| 21:48.02 | elg | the channel is overwhelmed. help help |
| 21:48.06 | goozbach | jsmith died!! |
| 21:48.10 | fozzmoo | But, for that matter, the fact Bush got re-elected shows a similar problem. :) |
| 21:48.15 | goozbach | overwelmed? |
| 21:48.23 | goozbach | elg: you want a +m for a minute? |
| 21:48.24 | sjansen | Oh? G. W. Bush is a great bastion of honor? Father, yes. Son, not by a long shot. |
| 21:48.31 | elg | no, i'm just making bad jokes |
| 21:48.43 | goozbach | I see |
| 21:49.12 | unum | I say we close down the DOD!!! |
| 21:49.14 | elg | fozzmoo: I'd bet the set of people responsible for GW Bush and the set of people responsible for Kerry are more or less orthogonal |
| 21:49.21 | unum | that'll cut federal spending by 40% |
| 21:49.35 | elg | which tells us that N% of the populace has a real problem, where N approaches 100% |
| 21:49.47 | elg | which I could have told you anyway ;-) |
| 21:49.48 | fozzmoo | elg: Yes, you're right... |
| 21:49.53 | tripzero | the fact that sarah palin is even in the polls makes me wonder about wth the people who think she'd make a good president are thinking. |
| 21:50.09 | elg | they're not thinking. they're feeling |
| 21:50.10 | fozzmoo | what's interesting is that in the last couple of years, fewer and fewer people are willing to claim party membership with GOP or Dem. |
| 21:50.12 | elg | that's the thing about politics |
| 21:50.31 | unum | tripzero: in my family there are two palin supporters, there are also two people with out college degrees :) |
| 21:50.38 | fozzmoo | The number of people claiming to be independent is almost more than the (R) and (D) combined. |
| 21:51.20 | unum | fozzmoo: is this bassed off of self identification in polls? |
| 21:51.34 | sjansen | Clearly it's time for Ross Perot to make his triumphant return. |
| 21:51.39 | fozzmoo | unum: I don't remember... I think so. |
| 21:51.59 | fozzmoo | I can't remember if it was a national poll or just Massachussets in the special election. |
| 21:52.13 | tripzero | Ross Perot... not old enough to even know... |
| 21:52.19 | fozzmoo | Yeah- I'm full of very credible information. |
| 21:52.23 | levi | Heh. |
| 21:52.33 | levi | Too young to know about Ross Perot? |
| 21:52.36 | fozzmoo | tripzero: Ross Perot is why we got Clinton in 1992. :) |
| 21:52.49 | unum | hmm rasumussen only goes back 7 years...... |
| 21:52.50 | tripzero | was he the R candidate? |
| 21:52.54 | fozzmoo | He was a third party candidate |
| 21:53.01 | fozzmoo | Ran against Bush and Clinton |
| 21:53.02 | tripzero | Liberatarian? |
| 21:53.17 | sjansen | Nope. Crackpot Party. |
| 21:53.18 | fozzmoo | Stole enough of Bush's vote to let Clinton win. |
| 21:53.24 | tripzero | oh, he took all the independant votes away from Bush? |
| 21:53.32 | tripzero | ahh |
| 21:53.35 | fozzmoo | Yeah. Very successful businessman... |
| 21:53.46 | sjansen | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Perot |
| 21:53.51 | tripzero | probably would have been decent for the economy |
| 21:53.52 | fozzmoo | Bought airtime to do infomercials full of charts, diagrams, etc. |
| 21:53.54 | unum | I like how rasmussen makes a big deal about their numbers, even though they don't change beyond the error range |
| 21:54.21 | fozzmoo | Had more executive experience than Bush and Clinton combined... |
| 21:54.32 | fozzmoo | But, yeah, he had funny ears and a funny voice. |
| 21:54.36 | fozzmoo | Looked like your weird uncle. |
| 21:54.43 | unum | but none of it related to running a government |
| 21:55.05 | sjansen | Because running a company is exactly the same thing as running a government. (Not!) |
| 21:55.16 | unum | of course Carly Fiorna runs a business the same way you runa government |
| 21:55.16 | Jayce^ | most see that as an improvement over those that claim their great govt experience :) |
| 21:55.40 | unum | I can't believe she's running for Senate |
| 21:55.56 | Jayce^ | why not, look who they've had.. anything is an improvement |
| 21:56.01 | levi | Ha ha, Fiorina. |
| 21:56.14 | unum | Jayce^: I a disagree with that |
| 21:56.16 | sjansen | gets caught in a timewarp, overcome with an irresistible urge to to his Pauly Shore impression |
| 21:56.28 | fozzmoo | Honestly, I'd have a hard time voting for Fiorina. |
| 21:56.29 | Jayce^ | unum: of course you would.. but we expect that from you |
| 21:56.32 | unum | I've hated Fiorina since before she fired bruce perens |
| 21:56.41 | Jayce^ | fozzmoo: if I was there I'd be pushing devore probably |
| 21:56.48 | unum | I don't see how anyone could vote for her |
| 21:56.57 | unum | my vote against mccain was against fiorina |
| 21:57.02 | unum | ok and palin |
| 21:57.03 | fozzmoo | heh heh. |
| 21:57.18 | unum | but before palin was picked fiorina bothered me |
| 21:57.22 | fozzmoo | (and the big elephant) |
| 21:57.30 | unum | I like McCain, I just hate the people he surrounds himself with |
| 21:57.45 | Jayce^ | he's just another progressive |
| 21:57.51 | Jayce^ | statist |
| 21:58.06 | unum | I support a set of ideals not a party |
| 21:58.13 | unum | in MA I'd probably be a republican :) |
| 21:58.36 | unum | though not in California, if they can back someone like Fiorina |
| 21:58.44 | fozzmoo | I think everyone in Utah would be right-wingers in MA. |
| 21:58.58 | unum | pretty much ya |
| 21:59.32 | fozzmoo | I have a good friend from Cambridge who told me about the fast-food restaurants there- the cities wouldn't let them hav e drive-thru windows... |
| 21:59.44 | fozzmoo | because then cars would idle unnecessarily. |
| 22:00.04 | sjansen | Sounds like a good argument to me. |
| 22:00.19 | fozzmoo | I guess they should outlaw red lights as well. |
| 22:00.23 | levi | I have a few coworkers who were at Lucent around when Fiorina was there. They don't have much good to say about her. |
| 22:00.27 | Jayce^ | thinks sjansen shouldn't be allowed to idle |
| 22:00.38 | sjansen | Might not make soccer mom's happy, but why should power plants be the only one's making sacrifices to reduce air pollution? |
| 22:01.01 | sjansen | Jayce^: I don't. I park and order inside. |
| 22:01.13 | Jayce^ | sjansen: I didn't say anything about cars.. |
| 22:01.22 | Sargun | Fiorna? |
| 22:01.30 | fozzmoo | Jayce^: That way he can pick the toy that comes with his meal. ;-) |
| 22:01.41 | sjansen | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carly_Fiorina |
| 22:01.52 | fozzmoo | Sargun LIVES in CA. |
| 22:02.01 | Sargun | ah |
| 22:02.02 | Sargun | ok |
| 22:02.07 | fozzmoo | I think he's sequestered hiimself in the data center too long. |
| 22:02.42 | Sargun | fozzmoo, I didn't think you'd be talking about carly fiornia |
| 22:02.45 | Sargun | and I hate her. |
| 22:02.50 | levi | I'm guessing there wasn't any danger of Sargun voting for her anyway. |
| 22:02.59 | fozzmoo | He's not old enough to vote. |
| 22:03.01 | sjansen | Carly Fiorina layed the groundwork for HP to potentially eclipse IBM in the service market, while simultaneously bringing it to the brink of failure. While her theory was spot on, her execute was abysmal. (Or so goes the market wisdom.) |
| 22:04.05 | levi | She ran Lucent into the ground, and then ran HP into the ground. She's a bit late to run California into the ground, but she could always try to dig it deeper. |
| 22:04.17 | elg | :-) |
| 22:04.22 | unum | levi: US Senate |
| 22:04.26 | fozzmoo | :-D |
| 22:04.31 | unum | meg whitman is running for governor |
| 22:04.39 | unum | iirc |
| 22:04.51 | unum | so Fiorina would be running us all into the ground |
| 22:04.51 | levi | unum: Yeah, I was just making a joke. |
| 22:04.54 | sjansen | Myself, I have to wonder how much of it was culture shock as traditionally geeky male dominated HP was headed by a female suit. |
| 22:05.02 | unum | levi: ya took me a second to get it |
| 22:05.33 | *** join/#utah keldwud (~keldwud@c-67-161-214-101.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 22:05.33 | unum | she inspired a new law and was forced to resign...... |
| 22:06.42 | levi | sjansen: I trust the opinion of my coworkers who experienced her at Lucent that she was terrible. |
| 22:07.58 | Sargun | meg whitman, and carly fiornia -- Agh! |
| 22:08.11 | Sargun | sjansen, Y! is run by a female? What's wrong with that |
| 22:08.20 | levi | She is only where she is because she happened to be at the right place at the right time at AT&T/Lucent. Their stock was *skyrocketing* due to the fact that they made the stuff that put people online while the internet was first taking off. |
| 22:09.34 | sjansen | Y! has a different history and culture than HP. If you don't see why it was doomed to be a painful combination, you need to learn more about the "glory days" of HP when engineers ruled. |
| 22:09.45 | keldwud | ooh. history. /me listens |
| 22:10.06 | sjansen | points at wikipedia |
| 22:10.40 | elg | wikipedia charges too much for popcorn |
| 22:11.20 | unum | Fiorina took over when they merged with Compaq and drove out all the linux people :( |
| 22:12.00 | keldwud | this is what wikipedia told me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golgo_13:_The_Professional |
| 22:12.06 | sjansen | Three data points: (1) HP is the source of the IT startup in a garage mystique. (2) Within HP, old timers revere the founders as just a step below diety. (3) Engineers used to be given expense accounts and _required_ to use them weekly to buy meals and stuff for friends while talking about how great working for HP was. |
| 22:12.18 | keldwud | I think I conducted an improper search |
| 22:13.02 | keldwud | sjansen - that last point is interesting and devious |
| 22:13.17 | keldwud | I've heard of other companies doing similar things or products |
| 22:14.05 | sjansen | I don't know that I'd use the word devious. HP used to recognize their engineers were their greatest asset, and they used to want to cream of the crop. Not unlike Google of a few years ago. |
| 22:14.16 | *** join/#utah fadein (fadein@gnu.mtveurope.org) |
| 22:14.27 | sjansen | s/want to/want the/ |
| 22:15.09 | sjansen | Now that we're all living on Internet time, though, the suits rush in faster to ruin everyone's fun. |
| 22:16.08 | elg | that's not entirely fair. I think real organizational complexities of scale set in and ruin everyone's fun. the suits are just along for the ride |
| 22:16.22 | elg | giving them credit for ruining everyone's fun is a little overreaching |
| 22:17.04 | tripzero | Bod Dole... |
| 22:17.15 | tripzero | sighs |
| 22:17.34 | unum | my libertarian friend voted for clinton over dole..... |
| 22:17.51 | tripzero | lol |
| 22:18.08 | unum | now elizabeth we can talk about :) |
| 22:18.11 | elg | you know about dole but not perot? weren't they basically contemporary? |
| 22:18.24 | unum | perot was 4 years earlier |
| 22:18.27 | fozzmoo | yep. |
| 22:18.28 | sjansen | elg: You obviously have no appreciation for the fine art of polemic. |
| 22:18.30 | fozzmoo | 92 vs 96 |
| 22:18.43 | unum | which when you are going from 13->17 can make a big difference :) |
| 22:18.54 | tripzero | hmm, James Bond was Perot's running mate in '92 |
| 22:18.55 | fozzmoo | Dole goes down in infamy for his spokesperson job. :) |
| 22:19.12 | elg | i suppose, but perot was still very much in the news in the 96 election |
| 22:19.13 | unum | was dukais 88? |
| 22:19.20 | unum | I have no idea how to spell that |
| 22:19.26 | elg | everyone talking about is it going to be perot all over again. who was the 3rd party that year? |
| 22:19.41 | sjansen | Whoever convinced Dole to do that commercial was an evil genius or the best sort. :-) |
| 22:19.41 | unum | I think it was perot's party, just not him running |
| 22:19.49 | unum | didn't he fund the reform party that year |
| 22:19.58 | elg | sjansen: yes, you're right. I haven't been doing my polemics homework. |
| 22:20.22 | keldwud | wasn't Chuck Norris Mike Huckabee's running mate? |
| 22:20.24 | elg | dukakis. I think it was 88 yeah |
| 22:20.36 | fozzmoo | 84 was Mondale. |
| 22:20.41 | sjansen | finds it interesting that most of his typos are incorrect words spelled correctly |
| 22:20.43 | elg | my 11 year old brain remembers caricatures of him and bush |
| 22:20.51 | keldwud | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDUQW8LUMs8 |
| 22:21.10 | sjansen | ~blame Huckabee |
| 22:21.11 | ibot | ACTION blames Huckabee (and Canada) for all the evil in the world |
| 22:21.42 | tripzero | keldwud, it was a nice commercial |
| 22:22.32 | keldwud | I want a burger that is "chuck norris approved" |
| 22:22.32 | keldwud | I bet it would be the baconator |
| 22:22.32 | tripzero | haha |
| 22:22.35 | keldwud | sorry to digress from the political conversation. I was failing miserably at keeping up |
| 22:22.35 | unum | I want a schneier approved burger |
| 22:22.42 | keldwud | as in bruce? |
| 22:22.50 | unum | of course |
| 22:22.51 | sjansen | as in wally |
| 22:22.53 | keldwud | lets speculate on what burger would be his |
| 22:22.55 | fozzmoo | It would be hard to figure out. |
| 22:23.06 | unum | mystery meat!! |
| 22:23.16 | elg | security by obscurity? not schneier's style. |
| 22:23.25 | levi | Hah, HP is apparently supporting Boxer for Senate, just to keep Fiorina out. |
| 22:23.39 | unum | are they going to run tv ads? |
| 22:23.53 | sjansen | You know, Wally Schneier, creator of the spicy chicken between two deep friend snickers. |
| 22:24.14 | keldwud | sjansen, pics plz |
| 22:24.41 | elg | so we watched the iron giant saturday. I want to know two things: |
| 22:24.57 | elg | 1. why the flip didn't anyone tell me this movie was so good? |
| 22:25.32 | elg | 2. How did netflix manage to stream something that looked so awesome on an hdtv? I fully expected sub-SD quality from netflix streaming. |
| 22:25.43 | keldwud | iron giant is an awesome movie |
| 22:25.55 | keldwud | it's an underdog |
| 22:26.14 | levi | elg: You must have better bandwidth than I do. Netflix streaming doesn't look that hot to me. |
| 22:26.39 | elg | that's the thing, i'm not new to netflix streaming. I've watched a bunch of the it crowd and one or two movies |
| 22:26.42 | fozzmoo | wants Verizon FiOS |
| 22:26.50 | keldwud | I streamed all my netflix through my xbox onto a shitty little t.v., so the quality never mattered to me |
| 22:26.58 | elg | on my laptop anyway, it doesn't look so good. maybe cartoons can be encoded with less bandwidth |
| 22:27.00 | sjansen | want FiOS too |
| 22:27.09 | fozzmoo | also wants WiMax |
| 22:27.24 | elg | i do have decent bandwidth. but nothing extraordinary - just standard comcast |
| 22:27.25 | sjansen | isn't as needy as fozzmoo |
| 22:27.35 | unum | is happy with UTOPIA |
| 22:27.42 | elg | though in the heart of silicon valley it's probably better than comcast in say utah |
| 22:27.46 | elg | but no comparison to utopia |
| 22:27.52 | JoshH | who wouldn't be happy with utopia |
| 22:27.56 | levi | Well, it's surely better than my DSL. |
| 22:27.59 | fozzmoo | My dad. |
| 22:28.03 | keldwud | "We're sorry, but Verizon does not offer FiOS Internet in your area based on the address you entered below:" |
| 22:28.05 | elg | or my friend in japan that was bragging 8MB/s |
| 22:28.08 | elg | not megabit |
| 22:28.09 | fozzmoo | My dad would be unhappy with UTOPIA |
| 22:28.17 | levi | fozzmoo: Why? |
| 22:28.27 | unum | fozzmoo: is he with MStar? |
| 22:28.31 | fozzmoo | Because it's owned by municipalities. |
| 22:28.32 | elg | no, 10MB. see I don't even believe it still. |
| 22:28.36 | keldwud | utopia never made it as far as pleasant grove. also, I'm extremely disappointed that a corporation was allowed to purchase parts of utopia |
| 22:28.40 | keldwud | isn't that what happened? |
| 22:28.49 | fozzmoo | no. |
| 22:28.53 | unum | keldwud: I think you were misinformed |
| 22:28.56 | keldwud | doh |
| 22:29.01 | unum | utopia is an independant non-profit |
| 22:29.06 | tripzero | fozzmoo, i thought utopia was sold to a private company? |
| 22:29.09 | unum | backed by individual cities |
| 22:29.10 | fozzmoo | The company that was running UTOPIA sold it to a company in Europe. |
| 22:29.16 | unum | tripzero: that's iProve |
| 22:29.16 | sjansen | I'm sure your dad is also deeply troubled by street lights. |
| 22:29.18 | unum | provo |
| 22:29.22 | tripzero | ahh, okay |
| 22:29.25 | fozzmoo | The company in Europe was like, "Eh... what are we going to do with this?!" |
| 22:29.30 | fozzmoo | So they sold it back to the member cities. |
| 22:29.41 | levi | sjansen: Those are symbols of communist oppression! |
| 22:29.58 | fozzmoo | levi: My dad is a big supporter of toll roads. |
| 22:30.04 | unum | so on saturday I had someone explain to me how obama was a communist |
| 22:30.05 | keldwud | ok so there *was* a period when utopia was purchased by private interests |
| 22:30.07 | fozzmoo | not that there are very many her ein Utah. |
| 22:30.07 | JoshH | so you're liberal compared to your dad |
| 22:30.09 | JoshH | wow |
| 22:30.18 | keldwud | unum - did they use a chalk board to illustrate? |
| 22:30.21 | JoshH | oh well, old people tend to be pretty extreme |
| 22:30.24 | levi | fozzmoo: Is he a fan of the proposal for a toll road across Utah Lake? |
| 22:30.26 | unum | apparantly if you "read between the lines" and then look at certain things he's said off of the cuff |
| 22:30.29 | unum | keldwud: fraid not |
| 22:30.32 | fozzmoo | levi: Probably. |
| 22:30.47 | tripzero | if there are more toll roads, does that mean the gas tax goes away? |
| 22:30.51 | keldwud | unum - darn. would have been more entertaining if they used the Glenn Beck method of illustrating things :) |
| 22:31.17 | levi | My grandpa was a John Bircher. Not sure if he was an official member, but he certainly subscribed to their newsletter. |
| 22:31.19 | fozzmoo | IMO, the GB chalkboard is temporary... |
| 22:31.32 | sjansen | Economics theory would make me think toll roads are the best choice. Actually experiencing them while traveling has convinced me they're not. |
| 22:31.43 | fozzmoo | once they have the budget and the technology to do those illustrations as 3D animated graphics... |
| 22:31.56 | fozzmoo | the chalkboard will be shown the door. |
| 22:32.27 | unum | sjansen: argeed |
| 22:32.56 | fozzmoo | The toll road in Ogden is apparently one of the nicest roads in the area. |
| 22:33.10 | fozzmoo | I've never been on it, but my bro-in-law says it's nice, smooth, clean, etc. |
| 22:33.12 | keldwud | wait, we have atoll road in utah? |
| 22:33.13 | Jayce^ | living on the other side of the lake, I'd welcome a private group building a bridge, and charging a toll |
| 22:33.14 | keldwud | *a toll |
| 22:33.18 | unum | well it is one of the newest |
| 22:33.22 | unum | and least traveled |
| 22:33.22 | sjansen | The quality of the road isn't the problem. |
| 22:33.32 | keldwud | I also agree that utah lake needs a road |
| 22:33.41 | Jayce^ | grew up around toll bridges |
| 22:33.58 | unum | I disagree with a bridge across the lake |
| 22:34.03 | JoshH | they should just drain the lake and turn it all into subdivisions. imagine the profits from so much room for new developments |
| 22:34.13 | keldwud | it would seriously reduce all that congestion that american fork and lehi just can't handle |
| 22:34.13 | unum | you guys should just all learn to live near the stuff you want to be by :P |
| 22:34.27 | fozzmoo | unum: It's funny you say that... |
| 22:34.27 | keldwud | JoshH, haha :) |
| 22:34.39 | keldwud | unum - I practice this philosophy |
| 22:34.47 | JoshH | the only time i ever see utah lake is when driving to vegas, so i don't care either way |
| 22:34.52 | Jayce^ | I do too, it's why I moved out there |
| 22:34.55 | fozzmoo | When the initial projections for LRT (TRAX) came out in 1987, UTA predicted it would take 500 cars off the freeway... |
| 22:35.14 | keldwud | I was encouraging less congestion because I realize the futility of breaking people of their addictions to their suburban neighborhoods and their cars |
| 22:35.21 | fozzmoo | But at the cost they were projecting, they could build 500 condominiums for those drivers closer to where they worked. |
| 22:35.32 | levi | It's, unfortunately, hard to be by two physically distant things at the same time. |
| 22:35.53 | sjansen | The problem with toll roads is (1) All non-toll roads become lower priority and get noticeably worse. (2) Entrances and exists are limited to maximize profit, not efficiency. (3) Travel takes longer. |
| 22:36.02 | fozzmoo | Despite this, light-rail transit in Utah continues to expand. |
| 22:36.07 | keldwud | I wonder what kind of impact draining the lake would have on Utah Valley. It would probably be *much* worse than Mexico City |
| 22:36.21 | unum | so you are using a 23 year old projection that you know was proven to be low, to justify this argument? |
| 22:36.27 | Jayce^ | sjansen: lower priority for who? if its' a private company, it's their concern.. state isnt' doing anything |
| 22:36.31 | fozzmoo | cheaper forms of mass transit (buses) continue to lose ridership. |
| 22:36.35 | unum | I see you are a Glenn beck fan |
| 22:37.00 | tripzero | actually, Glenn Beck is a tripzero fan |
| 22:37.01 | keldwud | ouch. are you going to let him get away with calling you that? |
| 22:37.03 | Jayce^ | unum: I see you haven't paid attention :) |
| 22:37.07 | keldwud | that's one serious insult |
| 22:37.25 | unum | Jayce^: are you saying there only 500 riders on trax? |
| 22:37.41 | tripzero | no, glen beck doesn't really pay attention much to what I actually mean when I say things |
| 22:38.20 | fozzmoo | It's hard to not ride TRAX when UTA has re-routed all the bus routes to the TRAX corridor. |
| 22:38.21 | sjansen | Jayce^: The non-privatized roads suffer. Apparently states and counties that are inclined to fob off responsibility to a private company become disinclined to manage what they're still responsible for. |
| 22:38.22 | Jayce^ | no, you haven't gotten everything yet.. you have a conclusion before the whole point.. |
| 22:38.51 | fozzmoo | which is stupid, IMO, when the cost to operate buses is so much less than light rail. |
| 22:39.08 | elg | what's schanze up to these days? |
| 22:39.11 | keldwud | my theory on why uta is failing is because they are pumping all their money into their private police force |
| 22:39.14 | fozzmoo | (and more flexible. It's easy to re-route a bus. Not so easy to re-route a train.) |
| 22:39.27 | keldwud | I mean, why the fuck does a transit cop need a damned Dodge Charger? |
| 22:39.28 | Jayce^ | sjansen: uh, the state doesn't take care of things because better private options exist? even in differing markets? I don't think it's the same |
| 22:39.28 | fozzmoo | keldwud: WHAT THE HELL IS THAT ABOUT?! |
| 22:39.29 | unum | fozzmoo: the operating costs of trax is higher per mile per rider than a bus? |
| 22:39.38 | fozzmoo | unum: Much. |
| 22:39.39 | keldwud | they raised their police force to 120 agents |
| 22:39.40 | Jayce^ | ~landguage keldwud |
| 22:39.46 | keldwud | sorry, guys |
| 22:39.48 | JoshH | light rail is much cleaner and moves a lot of people downtown more efficiently, and keeps more buses off the roads |
| 22:39.51 | keldwud | removes the foul language |
| 22:39.54 | unum | fozzmoo: link? |
| 22:39.59 | Jayce^ | ooh, and spelling for me :) |
| 22:40.14 | JoshH | the transit cops are a joke |
| 22:40.35 | JoshH | i got a warning from one one time for jaywalking across the train tracks when no train was in sight either way |
| 22:40.41 | sjansen | Jayce^: How much time have you spent driving in state with a significant number of toll roads? Don't try to come at me with your theory when I've already stated the theory is attractive but the reality is not. |
| 22:40.41 | keldwud | i'm just very animated about UTA because they are reducing transit operations while at the same time increasing spending on a police force |
| 22:40.47 | elg | utah wouldn't know good public transit if it hit it in the groin |
| 22:40.49 | JoshH | he acted like some kind of big shot detective wanna be or something |
| 22:40.55 | elg | assuming utah has a groin |
| 22:40.57 | elg | hmmm |
| 22:41.17 | unum | trax is a model for other cities across the country...... |
| 22:41.17 | JoshH | sjansen: i've driven on them in the midwest and texas. i agree with you. |
| 22:41.18 | Jayce^ | sjansen: quite a bit, not just roads, but also bridges and ferries.. |
| 22:41.37 | keldwud | I wonder if it would be possible to force UTA to explain to the public why Dodge Chargers are necessary for the Transit Authority |
| 22:41.41 | JoshH | trax just needs more lines around the valley |
| 22:41.43 | JoshH | especially southwest |
| 22:42.06 | Jayce^ | almost every year have to drive up in the NE, plenty of tolls |
| 22:42.14 | JoshH | we also need a nice freeway going southwest |
| 22:42.17 | keldwud | or why they need a security force of 120. that's more than what the city of Salt Lake has |
| 22:42.24 | fozzmoo | unum: http://www.publicpurpose.com/hwy-tr96$.htm |
| 22:42.28 | JoshH | i don't know how any herriman/south jordan/etc dwellers can stand to commute |
| 22:42.29 | Jayce^ | and marylad is the worst about toll roads, but they also aren't doing private ones, that's state revenue |
| 22:42.37 | fozzmoo | keldwud: Why do they need a police force at all?! |
| 22:42.47 | fozzmoo | Isn't that a bit out of scope for a transit authority? |
| 22:42.49 | sjansen | Jayce^: So you're talking about Seattle? The minor toll road presence there barely counts. Also Washington drivers are weird. A surprising number of them obey the speed limit. |
| 22:42.58 | unum | fozzmoo: no mention of trax on that link |
| 22:43.03 | unum | you must of sent the wrong one |
| 22:43.05 | JoshH | i believe all transit groups have their own cops |
| 22:43.09 | JoshH | BART does, afaik |
| 22:43.10 | Jayce^ | sjansen: try living your life to the schedule of the ferry :) |
| 22:43.12 | levi | Washington drivers are indeed weird. |
| 22:43.22 | keldwud | I believe they should have their own security force, but not on the level that UTA has |
| 22:43.27 | keldwud | *currently |
| 22:43.32 | Jayce^ | WA drivers were the best, until CA took too much effect.. |
| 22:43.37 | JoshH | portland drivers stay under the speed limit |
| 22:43.41 | Jayce^ | follow the speed limit, move for faster cars, etc |
| 22:43.44 | JoshH | you will pass everyone if you go 55 |
| 22:43.48 | tripzero | sjansen, same with Oregon drivers. And the speed limit is far too low (55) |
| 22:44.02 | Jayce^ | yeah, it's been hard going back, everything feels so slow |
| 22:44.05 | keldwud | nothing wrong with not having to rely on tax payer funded police force just to enforce fares |
| 22:44.06 | sjansen | I've love Oregon, but's its speed limits really piss me off. |
| 22:44.16 | JoshH | i just don't hurry when i'm there |
| 22:44.21 | fozzmoo | sjansen: Not to mention the gas stations. |
| 22:44.22 | JoshH | i love how it feels so laid back |
| 22:44.31 | keldwud | oh yeah, UTA is subsidized by tax payers anyway |
| 22:44.37 | fozzmoo | unum: TRAX is light rail transit, silly. |
| 22:44.52 | Jayce^ | from my house, to get anywhere, you had one of two toll bridges, or the state ferry system (since they forced out the private fleets).. |
| 22:45.08 | unum | fozzmoo: but it's operating cost are different than others |
| 22:45.12 | Jayce^ | ferry prices keep rising... but hey, they have SBC's on all of them now :) |
| 22:45.22 | fozzmoo | http://www.publicpurpose.com/ut-ieee.htm |
| 22:45.26 | unum | pluss if you'll follow the link you'll see that site claims busses are more expensive for many cities |
| 22:45.31 | fozzmoo | "US federal research indicates that quality bus systems are one-fifth the cost per passenger mile of light rail per passenger mile, can accommodate the volumes and operate as fast. Offering no speed or capacity advantage over buses, new light rail systems are simply obsolete, like the latest advancement in horse cars. " |
| 22:45.34 | unum | http://www.publicpurpose.com/ut-railcapop.htm |
| 22:45.51 | unum | their own page disagrees |
| 22:46.00 | TehLaser | rail is more predictable than busses. |
| 22:46.09 | unum | look at all light rail section |
| 22:46.13 | sjansen | I still remember my first business trip. My co-worker turned on his blinker and the cars near us moved to make room. It was at that point I knew I really wan't in Utah anymore. |
| 22:46.20 | TehLaser | Trax runs on time, most of the time. Busses rarely do. |
| 22:46.28 | keldwud | sjansen - oh my. that would be like living in a dream |
| 22:46.37 | TehLaser | Now, if you give the bus it's own lane, and synch the lights to them, that may be different. |
| 22:46.50 | JoshH | sjansen: in oregon? |
| 22:46.50 | fozzmoo | unum: I'm afraid you're reading it wrong. |
| 22:46.52 | keldwud | tehlaser, is this from personal anecdotal evidence or is this coming from somewhere else? |
| 22:47.11 | fozzmoo | That says in Los Angeles, light rail operating costs are 855.5% of the national best bus operating systems. |
| 22:47.15 | keldwud | I've never had much of a problem with the buses being late |
| 22:47.19 | TehLaser | personal experience, keldwud. |
| 22:47.30 | keldwud | tehlaser, ok :) |
| 22:47.37 | TehLaser | And from several years ago, so YMMV. |
| 22:47.37 | JoshH | ime, uta buses are on time sometimes, usually 5-10 minutes late, much later sometimes |
| 22:47.40 | unum | oh ya I was just looking at the operating costs |
| 22:47.41 | sjansen | JoshH: As it turns out, Houston. Which means it was pure dumb luck. |
| 22:47.44 | unum | not the capital cost |
| 22:47.52 | fozzmoo | unum: only a handful of lrt systems operate more efficiently than the local bus systems. |
| 22:48.03 | unum | but they still don't have salt lake's numbers |
| 22:48.08 | fozzmoo | of course, construction costs, buses win hand-down. |
| 22:48.17 | keldwud | what about peak operation? |
| 22:48.22 | JoshH | but why does everything have to be efficient? can't we just have buses and trains and enjoy them? trains are pretty awesome. |
| 22:48.31 | keldwud | like, on game days and general conference and such |
| 22:48.45 | unum | they do show st louis as being cheaper even with construction costs |
| 22:48.49 | keldwud | the light rail can handle a much larger volume during peak operation than the bus system could ever handle |
| 22:48.51 | elg | buses suck for commuters. |
| 22:48.51 | fozzmoo | I love the overall average: Light rail systems operate at 1427.8% of the national best bus costs. |
| 22:48.56 | JoshH | i only ride trax when i go to jazz games now, but when i lived closer to stations, i've used it to get to work. |
| 22:49.00 | fozzmoo | keldwud: Huh? |
| 22:49.04 | JoshH | it's definitely improved our city in my opinion |
| 22:49.08 | elg | buses are slow, late, cramped, and dirty. |
| 22:49.09 | fozzmoo | It's a lot easier to add a few more buses. |
| 22:49.12 | TehLaser | fozzmoo: as much as/as little as? |
| 22:49.29 | elg | ok, cramped and dirty were just thrown in for a nice meter. |
| 22:49.33 | elg | but slow and late is bad enough. |
| 22:49.41 | TehLaser | "The worst light rail costs OVER 9000% more than the best bus!" |
| 22:50.00 | Jayce^ | grumbles, got jury duty *again*.. last month, now this month.. |
| 22:50.04 | keldwud | fozzmoo: I was just speculating that although transit is not economical compared to buses, I was wondering about "crunch" times on days when ridership is *huge* |
| 22:50.05 | elg | trains are much more reliable and swift. bus+train in the right balance is the way to go |
| 22:50.17 | Tene | Jayce^: I've never had jury duty. |
| 22:50.21 | levi | How about the best train and worst bus? |
| 22:50.23 | fozzmoo | LRT is still over 300% more expensive than local buses.\ |
| 22:50.24 | Jayce^ | Tene: every year for me |
| 22:50.32 | keldwud | jayce, how do you get jury duty so often? |
| 22:50.34 | Jayce^ | even when I was in Brasil I got summons |
| 22:50.44 | fozzmoo | This chart is still 14 years old. |
| 22:50.44 | keldwud | levi has a good point |
| 22:50.45 | Jayce^ | and I had barely sent in my voter registration |
| 22:50.56 | sjansen | elg: If only TRAX were comparable to BART. |
| 22:51.09 | levi | Jayce^: I think sending in your voter registration triggers it. |
| 22:51.13 | fozzmoo | I'd hate to see how a publicly operated light rail system compares to a privately operated bus system. |
| 22:51.18 | elg | sjansen: truth. but, I don't have to compare caltrans to UTA |
| 22:51.31 | Jayce^ | levi: that's where selection comes from, but I've been called at least every other year since then |
| 22:51.35 | elg | I have experience riding utah buses and trax. I can draw my own conclusions from that data alone |
| 22:51.38 | *** join/#utah CSJewell (~CSJewell@74-36-215-63.br1.tmn.ut.frontiernet.net) |
| 22:51.41 | elg | let alone my excellent experience here with caltrain |
| 22:51.54 | keldwud | elg, lol |
| 22:51.55 | elg | and my almost-excellent experience with buses in rhode island |
| 22:51.56 | levi | Jayce^: They must have liked you. ;) |
| 22:52.22 | elg | loves public transit done right. |
| 22:52.23 | sjansen | Jayce^: Clearly you pissed off someone with access to the court's computers. |
| 22:52.24 | Jayce^ | levi: not that much, they didn't send me my absentee packet until after the election :( |
| 22:52.37 | Jayce^ | sjansen: bad enough that it has travelled between states |
| 22:52.43 | elg | trax: good enough that I don't hate it. uta buses, shudder in fear. |
| 22:53.20 | Jayce^ | and american bus is a joke.. I mean they actually wait for people to get comfy in their seats before closing the doors, and gently merging into traffic |
| 22:53.32 | fozzmoo | Jayce^: heh. |
| 22:53.35 | elg | fozzmoo: i'd love to see a privately operated bus system. |
| 22:53.44 | fozzmoo | elg: Go to Logan, UT |
| 22:53.45 | elg | as in, the same way i'd love to see a yeti |
| 22:54.03 | unum | logan's was privatly operate but publicy funded |
| 22:54.05 | fozzmoo | LTD has been privately operated since... 1992, I believe. |
| 22:54.05 | elg | what would motivate any private entity to set up a bus system? |
| 22:54.07 | unum | just like utopia..... |
| 22:54.08 | Jayce^ | yeah, logan runs one, and I know BH would lease out most runs |
| 22:54.16 | elg | unless they're going to charge taxi-like rates |
| 22:54.20 | unum | greyhound runs logans system |
| 22:54.25 | elg | in which case it would be a novelty at best. |
| 22:54.25 | fozzmoo | unum: Wrong. |
| 22:54.35 | fozzmoo | Dave Transportation runs Logan's system. |
| 22:54.35 | unum | fozzmoo: how so |
| 22:54.43 | fozzmoo | They're based in Colorado. |
| 22:54.45 | unum | when did that change |
| 22:54.49 | *** join/#utah CamargoBP (~CamargoBP@orem.jiveip.net) |
| 22:54.49 | elg | public funded, privately operated - that's another story |
| 22:54.51 | fozzmoo | It's been that way since day-one. |
| 22:54.53 | Jayce^ | elg: no, actually it can be a pretty profitable market if it has a nice route setup. |
| 22:54.54 | unum | it was greyhound when I left |
| 22:55.01 | JoshH | i don't know if logan is a good example city for a mass transit discussion |
| 22:55.02 | fozzmoo | unum: They share facilities. |
| 22:55.04 | unum | said laidlaw right on every uniform |
| 22:55.05 | elg | Jayce^: in utah? |
| 22:55.17 | elg | maybe, maybe, in a high density location |
| 22:55.29 | *** join/#utah CamargoBP (~CamargoBP@orem.jiveip.net) |
| 22:55.41 | *** join/#utah jsmith-away (~jsmith@asterisk/training-and-documentation-guru/jsmith) |
| 22:55.44 | elg | where you can make up for low fares with volume |
| 22:55.48 | sjansen | elg: Even in a lower density country without America's love for cars. |
| 22:55.48 | fozzmoo | Anyhow, LTD has managed to operate their in-city fleet on public tax revenues without any need for fares since the inception. |
| 22:55.53 | levi | So, the best train is about 3 times cheaper than the worst bus. |
| 22:56.08 | fozzmoo | Originally, they had planned to operate fare-free for about 9 months... |
| 22:56.08 | elg | levi: keep your filthy facts out of this |
| 22:56.11 | unum | ah it's right on the wikipedia page |
| 22:56.14 | Jayce^ | screw it, we'll just go with jeepni's everywhere |
| 22:56.15 | unum | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laidlaw |
| 22:56.24 | unum | bought greyhound and dave at the same time |
| 22:56.43 | fozzmoo | Ahhh. |
| 22:56.47 | fozzmoo | Didn't kow that. |
| 22:56.52 | fozzmoo | s/kow/know/ |
| 22:57.01 | sjansen | Facts?! Fact?! Don't bring your stinkin' facts to #utah! |
| 22:57.04 | sjansen | Fascists. |
| 22:57.22 | levi | Washington has the cheapest train, and San Jose has the most expensive bus. |
| 22:57.34 | fozzmoo | The best bus system I've been on was in Oahu. |
| 22:57.39 | elg | well, i'll believe a private unfunded capitalistic transportation system when i see it, but I'm not morally opposed to it. surprised I may be but I've been wrong before |
| 22:58.18 | fozzmoo | LTD proves to me UTA could easily be 100X more efficient if it was operated by a private organization. |
| 22:58.43 | fozzmoo | Of course, a private company would start cutting costs by immediately dismantling the trolley, er... light rail, lines. |
| 22:58.49 | sjansen | Enron proves to me that Utah Power could be 1000X more corrupt if operated by a private organization. |
| 22:58.56 | elg | fozzmoo: that's a stupid thing to say. it could be 100% more efficient if it was operated by communist monkeys |
| 22:58.58 | levi | Or if it was, say, operated 100X more efficiently as a public operation. |
| 22:59.07 | elg | it's hard to imagine how UTA could be any worse than it is. |
| 22:59.18 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 22:59.23 | unum | LDT worked good for where it was implemented |
| 22:59.30 | unum | salt lake != logan |
| 22:59.37 | unum | LTD I mean |
| 22:59.57 | sjansen | elg: Oh? Is that a challenge? I'm sure there's some people down in Brazil that'd love a chance to prove you wrong. |
| 23:00.26 | elg | hmm. i suppose it depends on your value system. |
| 23:00.28 | unum | do the drivers shoot at each other here? |
| 23:00.43 | elg | i was thinking of crazy driving as more or less orthogonal |
| 23:00.43 | unum | sjansen: did they shoot at each other in brazil? |
| 23:00.46 | elg | to the issue at hand |
| 23:00.57 | *** join/#utah toofer (~toofer@fw.oremut02.us.wh.verio.net) |
| 23:01.13 | unum | I'm also a big fan of floor boards that actually go all the way through the bus..... |
| 23:01.40 | Jayce^ | so you're saying you have no clue about what brazil is really like :) |
| 23:02.22 | blendmaster1024 | anyone going to the daytime on wednesday? |
| 23:02.23 | Jayce^ | now cars, I did get a few like that, but busses are something different |
| 23:03.32 | fozzmoo | sjansen: I'm surprised you'll work for a privately owned and managed company like Guru Labs considering the corruption and malintent that went on inside Enron. ;-) |
| 23:04.27 | sjansen | While I was in Campinas, Brazil people started buying large vans and driving along the bus routes charging the same fee as the bus. Because they ran much more often and were more flexible about stops, they were a wonderful alternative. I'm sure the bus drivers would have loved to shoot the independents, but I never of actually happening. |
| 23:04.57 | fozzmoo | sjansen: Competition is a wonderful thing. |
| 23:05.05 | Jayce^ | sjansen: was campinas a wholly owned route by the state? most brasilian cities use a leased line model |
| 23:05.28 | sjansen | fozzmoo: I was just counter pointing your ridiculous claim with an equally ridiculous claim. (And I'm sure Dax and Bryan will appreciate hearing what you think of them. ;-) |
| 23:05.41 | Jayce^ | some of the smallers start out wholly owned.. I know setse lagoas was wholly owned in the main routes |
| 23:06.04 | Jayce^ | sete.. it's definitely time to go home... |
| 23:06.14 | sjansen | I have no idea who ran the bus system. I do know there was obviously room for improvement. |
| 23:06.28 | *** join/#utah Sargun_Screen (~sargun@208.106.98.2) |
| 23:06.59 | Jayce^ | most have a city or state company that sets the routes and fees, and will open them out to bidding, companies will buy into parts and run that section |
| 23:07.21 | Jayce^ | that's why most can have such differences in bus quality, or timing in certain areas |
| 23:07.40 | elg | so where's the awesome private transport in utah to usurp the ridership of UTA? |
| 23:07.54 | fozzmoo | elg: Good question. |
| 23:08.05 | fozzmoo | Where's the private alternative to UTOPIA? |
| 23:08.17 | Jayce^ | always hard to have a startup vs govt company.. but is possible. |
| 23:08.30 | fozzmoo | Oh wait... Comcast and Qwest made it pretty clear they won't tolerate any more competition. |
| 23:09.08 | elg | fozzmoo: also an excellent question. why did utopia have to come from the govt? |
| 23:09.13 | fozzmoo | That's the one thing I have trouble explaining to my parents - how UTOPIA is far superior to Qwest/Comcast. |
| 23:09.28 | keldwud | fozzmoo comcast and qwest fought every step of the way against UTOPIA |
| 23:09.34 | fozzmoo | keldwud: Exactly. |
| 23:09.37 | sjansen | There we go, all we need to do is convince Comcast to manage our bus systems and privatization will lead us to utopia^w nirvana. |
| 23:09.45 | Jayce^ | elg: largely because of the monopoly rights that utilies get |
| 23:09.57 | fozzmoo | No private company is going to try to repeat what UTOPIA went through- baseless lawsuit after baseless lawsuit |
| 23:10.23 | keldwud | that's a strategy that many monopolies use against up and coming competition |
| 23:10.24 | elg | oh right, i forgot. private enterprise only fails when teh govt screws them over. |
| 23:10.36 | keldwud | make them waste all their startup capital on lawyers |
| 23:10.41 | Jayce^ | no, most fail, it's part of the process.. supposed to work that way |
| 23:10.54 | Jayce^ | govt interference just makes it harder |
| 23:10.59 | elg | well talking about private enterprise itself, not a particular company |
| 23:11.34 | elg | "show me private enterprise magically doing $hard_thing" "govt screwed us" |
| 23:11.38 | elg | i get that a lot |
| 23:12.12 | keldwud | I must choose between nethack, battle for wesnoth, or dungeons and dragons online |
| 23:12.26 | elg | wesnoth, definitely |
| 23:12.34 | keldwud | consensus? |
| 23:13.19 | JoshH | tuxracer |
| 23:13.25 | keldwud | ohgodno |
| 23:13.28 | elg | you don't need a consensus when chuck norris weighs in |
| 23:13.32 | sjansen | elg: It comes down to optimist vs. pessimists. Optimism takes patience and faith. Pessimism is trivial and often self-fulfilling even if it's ultimately a much more miserable existence. |
| 23:13.36 | keldwud | wesnoth = chuck norris approved? |
| 23:13.54 | unum | sjansen: faith in what? |
| 23:14.03 | elg | elg: so am I an optimist or a pessimist? |
| 23:14.11 | unum | is a pessismist |
| 23:14.14 | keldwud | also, everytime I read the word wesnoth, I immediately hear the opening theme |
| 23:14.17 | Jayce^ | is a realist |
| 23:14.26 | keldwud | is a lunatic |
| 23:14.37 | elg | is thirsty |
| 23:14.43 | Jayce^ | is heading home |
| 23:14.50 | Gate | is a gateist |
| 23:15.02 | keldwud | elg - why wesnoth over nethack or DDO? |
| 23:15.10 | elg | i don't know the first thing about DDO |
| 23:15.23 | sjansen | $DIETY. Humanity. The laws of thermodynamics and a tendency of systems to achieve a steady state. Faith that eventually you'll die an it won't be your problem anymore. Take your pick. All are better than living life constantly expecting the worst. |
| 23:15.46 | keldwud | ddo = wow lite, kinda |
| 23:15.49 | elg | isn't nethack that silly text-based game that's less lyrical than zork but somehow more primitive? |
| 23:16.13 | unum | shel silverstein's little engine that could describes my outlook on life |
| 23:16.40 | keldwud | also, I can't figure out how to "add this launcher to panel" in xubuntu |
| 23:16.57 | elg | I enjoy wesnoth, so I voted. and I'm always looking for people to play |
| 23:17.08 | keldwud | right clicking doesn't bring up the context menu |
| 23:17.10 | elg | YMMV. you may be eaten by a grue |
| 23:17.20 | keldwud | it just starts the application |
| 23:17.38 | keldwud | am I doing something wrong? right clicking in ubuntu brings up the context menu with the option to add to panel or desktop |
| 23:18.26 | keldwud | elg, I'm still in training. I'd be happy to play a game of wesnoth with you after I finally complete Heir to the Throne on normal |
| 23:18.41 | sjansen | has MC Frontalot stuck in his head on a loop singing "you might be eaten by a grue" |
| 23:20.48 | keldwud | i love that song |
| 23:24.32 | *** join/#utah tiwula (~lane@75-148-99-197-Utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 23:31.11 | levi | Nerdcore is entertaining, but I didn't care for the grue one. |
| 23:31.36 | levi | The one that's a walkthrough to Zork is awesome, though. |
| 23:33.06 | sontek | goozbach: eightyeight: Did you know about CTRL+R in weechat? |
| 23:33.34 | eightyeight | sontek: nay? i'm assuming it has the same functionality as ctrl+r in bash? |
| 23:33.46 | eightyeight | s/nay?/nay./ |
| 23:34.11 | levi | http://www.geeklovesongs.com/?p=125 |
| 23:35.13 | *** join/#utah jsmith-away (~jsmith@asterisk/training-and-documentation-guru/jsmith) |
| 23:35.19 | sontek | eightyeight: not quite, it more like hlsearch in vim |
| 23:35.31 | goozbach | awesome! |
| 23:35.33 | eightyeight | ahh |
| 23:35.35 | goozbach | just do it! |
| 23:35.53 | sontek | its pretty awesome, I had been using the egrep plugin |
| 23:35.58 | sontek | but no need to now =) |
| 23:36.50 | eightyeight | still using irssi here, but found this: http://wouter.coekaerts.be/site/irssi/history_search |
| 23:38.06 | sontek | eightyeight: eww, weechat is so much more powerful! |
| 23:38.19 | eightyeight | yeah, i'm not liking it already |
| 23:41.15 | eightyeight | it's only missing the ability to press ^R repeatedly, to continue searching |
| 23:43.55 | sontek | eightyeight: hit the up arrow |
| 23:44.19 | eightyeight | well, i know about that |
| 23:44.24 | *** join/#utah sjansen (~sjansen@75-169-115-58.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 23:44.57 | sontek | eightyeight: if you hit CTRL+R, type text in, and then hit up arrow it'll go to the next match |
| 23:45.01 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (~emcnabb@cpe-174-097-177-192.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 23:45.02 | *** mode/#utah [+v emcnabb] by ChanServ |
| 23:45.07 | sontek | its pretty slick |
| 23:45.15 | eightyeight | in weechat? |
| 23:45.18 | sontek | yeah |
| 23:45.38 | eightyeight | yeah. i'm moaning about the history_search.pl for irssi |
| 23:45.55 | sontek | oh, yeah, well... use an inferior chat client and thats what ya get :P |
| 23:46.00 | eightyeight | heh |
| 23:46.16 | sontek | but its probably easy enough to add that feature to history_search.pl |
| 23:46.45 | eightyeight | yeah |
| 23:47.00 | eightyeight | but it really hasn't been a need for me to use that functionality, so its priority is rather low |
| 23:48.10 | sontek | I use it to replace /lsatlog |
| 23:48.12 | sontek | lastlog* |
| 23:48.16 | sontek | its a little more powerful |
| 23:48.32 | eightyeight | so, ^R for you searches the channel text, not just what you inputed? |
| 23:52.26 | eightyeight | wi |
| 23:52.28 | eightyeight | meh |
| 23:55.00 | sjansen | http://science.slashdot.org/story/10/02/08/2223252/Virus-Detecting-Lab-On-a-Chip-Developed-At-BYU |
| 23:55.42 | fozzmoo | sjansen: Cool. |
| 23:56.12 | fozzmoo | I won't bother browsing the comments. It'll be chock full of anti-LDS spew, I'm sure. :) |
| 23:58.28 | tripzero | none that i can see... |
